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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hello, go on and welcome to it could happen here.

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Speaker 3: My name is Dan al Kurd, and I'm a researcher

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Speaker 3: and analyst of Arab and pasting in politics. Today I

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Speaker 3: want to talk about football, soccer, whatever, and I'll just

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Speaker 3: start by saying, obviously FIFA is a terrible, terrible organization.

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Speaker 3: And while there are many heartwarming events in this World Cup,

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Speaker 3: the World Cup gets me, gets a lot of us.

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Speaker 3: Despite everything, there have also been egregious incidents against players

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Speaker 3: and referees and fans from the global South. Take for example,

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Speaker 3: what happened to the Somali referee who wasn't allowed to

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Speaker 3: come into the US to do his job. He was

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Speaker 3: kept hours and hours in the airport before being unceremoniously

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Speaker 3: returned to Somalia. Similarly, the head of the Palestine Football

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Speaker 3: Association was denied a visa in to the United States,

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Speaker 3: not allowed to come to the World Cup on US soil.

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Speaker 3: This is in spite of the fact that FIFA invited

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Speaker 3: association heads from around the world to attend and he

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Speaker 3: did attend the opening game in Mexico City. Or one

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Speaker 3: of the worst incidents, if you can call it that,

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Speaker 3: the way that the Iranian team has been treated. They

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Speaker 3: weren't allowed to stay in the US despite the games

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Speaker 3: they were playing in this country, were constantly made to

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Speaker 3: fly back to Mexico after every game. Clearly they were

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Speaker 3: put at a severe disadvantage because they weren't allowed to

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Speaker 3: rest and recuperate like the other teams. And listen, I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to say it is a conspiracy, but having

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Speaker 3: not won but three goals discounted by var eventually leading

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Speaker 3: to their elimination from the tournament just adds insult to injury.

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Speaker 3: But like I said, of course, there are many heartwarming stories.

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Speaker 3: For me as a Palestine unit's been great to see

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Speaker 3: how much Palestine keeps popping up despite the fact that

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Speaker 3: the environment in the United States is much more hostile

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Speaker 3: on this issue than the last World Cup. People are

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Speaker 3: still talking about Palestine and advocating for Palestine. Thousands of

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Speaker 3: Bosnian supporters, for example, turned Toronto into a sea of

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Speaker 3: blue as they marched toward the stadium for the Canada match,

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Speaker 3: chanting Free Palestine, and they did that in a number

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Speaker 3: of places, Englewood, Seattle. They also chanted Palestine within the

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Speaker 3: stadiums in multiple games. At that Canada game, activists also

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Speaker 3: a deferrald a kick Israel out of FIFA banner and

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Speaker 3: it makes sense really when you understand the experience of

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Speaker 3: Bosnians with jedtocide themselves not too long ago. Similarly, Moroccan

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Speaker 3: fans held Palestinian flags or wore Morocco jerseys with the

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Speaker 3: word Palestine on it, and this showed up on TV.

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Speaker 3: At the very opening match in Mexico City, pro Palestine

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Speaker 3: demonstrators gathered to form a giant human Palestinian flag, and

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Speaker 3: South Korean fans brought Palestinian flags to the tournament, honoring

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Speaker 3: a promise they made during their qualifying when They're fans

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Speaker 3: had chanted will take Palestine to the World Cup with us.

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Speaker 3: In Gaza, Palestinians are watching the games too. Spain is

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Speaker 3: the favorite team these days because of the government's position

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Speaker 3: on the Israel Palestinian conflict and because of superstar player

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Speaker 3: leamg Yamal, who has been unapologetically pro Palestine. Obviously, the

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Speaker 3: genocide that has unfolded in Gaza and the war in

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Speaker 3: killing that continues in the Middle East in both occupy

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Speaker 3: territories and in Lebanon are part of the reason why

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Speaker 3: this issue seems to be ever present. But it didn't

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Speaker 3: start with the genocide. The story of Palestine at the

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Speaker 3: World Cup is more layer than that, and the twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two World Cup in Qatar was a good demonstration

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Speaker 3: of why Palestine keeps popping up and what Palestine represents

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Speaker 3: to fans, especially air ones then and everyone now. I

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Speaker 3: know it might seem strange to be talking about this

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Speaker 3: now a few years after the fact, but I've been

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Speaker 3: thinking about it a lot, especially given everything that has

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Speaker 3: unfolded since, and I think the World Cup moment is

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Speaker 3: one of those events that gets more interesting, not less,

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Speaker 3: as time passes back then as it does now. It's

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Speaker 3: showing us something important, not just about Palestine, but about

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Speaker 3: the limits of what governments can actually control when it

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Speaker 3: comes to what their own people believe.

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Speaker 4: So let's get into it.

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Speaker 3: Palestine did not qualify for the twenty twenty two World Cup.

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Speaker 3: The Palasadian national football team was nowhere near Doha in

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Speaker 3: an official capacity, and yet Arabs from across the region

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Speaker 3: and across the world began referring to Palestine then as

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Speaker 3: the thirty third team. Because Palestine was everywhere at the

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two World Cup. There were Palestinian flags draped

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Speaker 3: over shoulders and stadiums. Crowds erupted into the chance of Multani,

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Speaker 3: the Palestinian anthem. After Arab teams won, one Tunisian fan

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Speaker 3: ran onto the pitch mid match for the Palestinian flag.

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Speaker 3: And when Morocco pulled off their historic upset against Spain

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Speaker 3: so it's the first African and Arab team to ever

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Speaker 3: reach the semi finals of a World Cup, Moroccan players

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Speaker 3: ran to the crowd and held up the Palestinian flag.

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Speaker 3: This was significant. Morocco had just signed the Abraham Accords

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Speaker 3: with Israel only two years prior to this game, and

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Speaker 3: their players didn't seemed to care. Israeli journalists who traveled

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Speaker 3: to Kata to cover the tournament reported being coldly received, followed,

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Speaker 3: and in some cases physically shut out of interviews by

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Speaker 3: crowds of Arab fans. Some of these reporters were caught

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Speaker 3: on camera claiming to be from other countries like France

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Speaker 3: or Switzerland in order to get people to talk to them.

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Speaker 3: Some of them masked their logos from their stations. Israeli

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Speaker 3: media at the time expressed something between confusion and outrage.

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Speaker 3: One reporter remarked, and I'm paraphrasing here, but he basically

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Speaker 3: said that the hostility wasn't just coming from governments as

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Speaker 3: they had assumed, it was coming from ordinary people, and

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Speaker 3: this surprised them, but it shouldn't have. Now. None of

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Speaker 3: this was purely spontaneous. That's the part of the story

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Speaker 3: I find most interesting and the part that gets maybe

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Speaker 3: the least attention. Months before the World Cup began, a

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Speaker 3: Qatari activist group called Katari Youth a post a normalization QAYN,

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Speaker 3: started planning. They were founded in twenty eleven and by

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, led predominantly by Qatari women, they had

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Speaker 3: been working for over a decade to push back against

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Speaker 3: Glatar's slow dift towards normalizing ties with Israel. Which is

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Speaker 3: something the Clitari government had been entertaining, largely under pressure

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Speaker 3: from the United States and from its golf neighbors, and

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Speaker 3: in a country where over eighty percent of people opposed

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Speaker 3: normalization with Israel. This organization, Qultari Youth, had a base,

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Speaker 3: but they had to work carefully because you can't have

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Speaker 3: unsanctioned civil society organizations. There's all sorts of restrictions on

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Speaker 3: independent activism, extremely severe and cleveland. But they saw the

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Speaker 3: World Cup as a window, an opportunity to turn what

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Speaker 3: already existed, which was deep, widespread popular solidarity with Palestine,

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Speaker 3: into something visible, coordinated and impossible to ignore. So they

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Speaker 3: got to work. They persuaded Katura's national team captain to

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Speaker 3: wear a Kafia patterned armband before the opening match, and

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Speaker 3: then there was this hashtag the captain's armband is Palestinian,

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Speaker 3: which started trending on Arabic Twitter.

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Speaker 4: They reached out to Quatari.

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Speaker 3: Influencers from prominent journalists who amplified the campaign across social media,

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Speaker 3: and they called on local businesses to display signs that

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Speaker 3: they were compliant with the boycott, divestment, sanctions movement. They

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Speaker 3: also ran a kind of counterintelligence operation against Israeli media,

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Speaker 3: because they were the ones that began identifying Israeli journalists

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Speaker 3: and their logos on social media, flagging them so that

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Speaker 3: Arab fans at the tournament knew who to avoid, and

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Speaker 3: this is how those videos of Israeli broadcasters being turned

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Speaker 3: away kept appearing online. They also organized fans to chant

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Speaker 3: for Palisian at the forty eighth minute of every match.

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Speaker 3: That's not random. That's a reference to nineteen forty eight

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Speaker 3: and to the Nekba where close to William Past Indians

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Speaker 3: were expelled from their homes with the founding of Israeli State.

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Speaker 3: Key members of Katarith said the goal was to turn

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Speaker 3: Arab fans from sympathizers into participants, and they were honest

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Speaker 3: about something else too. This only worked because the ground

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Speaker 3: was already ready. As they put it, the campaign would

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Speaker 3: not have succeeded had it not been for people's own

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Speaker 3: proactive support of the Palaestini cause, and that's worth sitting

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Speaker 3: with for a moment. The organizing mattered, the strategy mattered,

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Speaker 3: but the reason it spread so quickly so far is

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Speaker 3: that there was already a fire there. Katariuth just let

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Speaker 3: them now to understand why people were so upset. You

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Speaker 3: have to understand the Abraham Accords. I've talked about it

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Speaker 3: on this podcast before the normalization agreements broken by the

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Speaker 3: Trump administration in twenty twenty between Israel and the UAE,

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Speaker 3: the United Air Emirates and Bahrain, and later Sudan and Morocco.

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Speaker 3: These deals were sold as historic breakthroughs, as a new

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Speaker 3: era of peace, and in terms of official diplomatic relations,

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Speaker 3: they were breakthroughs. They were historic, but there was a problem.

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Speaker 3: Nobody asked the people, and these accords didn't solve anything.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 3: Air public opinion surveys have consistently shown that the vast

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Speaker 3: majority of Arabs opposed normalization with Israel absent a resolution

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Speaker 3: to the question of Palestinian statehood and the ongoing occupation,

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Speaker 3: and in the most recent polling before the accords, it

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Speaker 3: was something like eighty eight percent of Arabs across thirteen

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Speaker 3: countries that rejected normalization with Israel, and nearly two thirds

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Speaker 3: of those cited the occupation of Pastinian land as their reason.

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Speaker 3: Only seven percent cited something like religious objections. The fear

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Speaker 3: had always been that if you normalize relations with Israel

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Speaker 3: without a resolution to the Israeli Palsaiinian conflict. Israel would

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Speaker 3: not have any reason to try and resolve the conflict

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Speaker 3: or address the grievances of Palestinians that Israel perhaps would

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Speaker 3: become more aggressive if the guardrails were off. So what

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Speaker 3: the Abraham Cords actually did from the perspective of ordinary

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Speaker 3: Arabs was deep in the sense that their governments wouldn't

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Speaker 3: listen to them, were willing to sell them out, sell

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Speaker 3: out the Palestinians for economic and security arrangements that disproportionately

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Speaker 3: benefited ruling classes anyway, and the US Israeli security architecture.

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Speaker 3: I've written about this academically, and what I found is

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Speaker 3: a kind of paradox at the heart of these so

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Speaker 3: called peace deals. Peace initiatives that don't address the root

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Speaker 3: causes of conflict don't actually create peace. They create a

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Speaker 3: different kind of violence, a structural violence, because they maintained

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Speaker 3: the root causes of conflict, and and they enable authoritarian

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Speaker 3: practices by governments. So Israel shares a lot of tools surveillance, technology,

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Speaker 3: propaganda framework, security cooperation, both material and discursive tools, and

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Speaker 3: these have a way of turning up in the hands

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Speaker 3: of governments for pressing their own citizens. Now I'm not

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Speaker 3: saying the United Arab Emirates or Bahrain needed encouragement to

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Speaker 3: repress their own citizens, but it's just another added layer,

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Speaker 3: another way that the red lines shift, and new ways

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Speaker 3: that these governments can attack their own citizens and their

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Speaker 3: own activists. For example, Amadouti activists involved in anti normalization

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Speaker 3: activities after the accords became targets of surveillance operations, and

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Speaker 3: people who spoke out about the deals faced travel bands

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Speaker 3: in Bahrain, civil society organizations were newly restricted. The quote

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Speaker 3: unquote peace came with the repressive apparatus baked in, which

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Speaker 3: is exactly why when thousands of Arabs gathered and has

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Speaker 3: public squares to watch the World Cup, the energy around

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Speaker 3: Palestine wasn't some just like emotional sentiment, and it wasn't

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Speaker 3: a relic.

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Speaker 4: It was fresh.

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Speaker 3: It was the anger of people who had just watched

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Speaker 3: their governments make deals they never asked for, and deals

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Speaker 3: that were used to oppress them and not solve the

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Speaker 3: postating issue. There is a concept that academics and activists

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Speaker 3: have used called sports normalization. The idea is that sports,

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Speaker 3: because they're presented as a political or maybe as entertainment

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Speaker 3: as a space above politics. They can be used as

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Speaker 3: a soft avenue for normalizing relationships that would be otherwise

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Speaker 3: politically controversial. Israel has long pursued the strategy. The logic is,

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Speaker 3: if Israel and Arab athletes compete together, then this image

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Speaker 3: of coexistence replaces the political reality of occupation. You don't

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Speaker 3: need any kind of solution or diplomatic agreement. You just

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Speaker 3: need enough footage of an Israelian Oracan shaking hands on

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Speaker 3: the pitch to make people feel like things are moving

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Speaker 3: in a good direction. Kutan Youth were very explicit about

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Speaker 3: targeting this. They hosted panels on sports normalization. They released

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Speaker 3: a statement pointing out that Western political boycotts of Russia

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Speaker 3: extended the sporting events after the invasion of Ukraine, and

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Speaker 3: nobody then complained that sports were being mixed up with politics,

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Speaker 3: and to them, the inconsistency was glaring that mixing sports

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Speaker 3: with politics was apparently fine when it was about sanctioning Russia,

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Speaker 3: you know, admittedly very appropriately, but somehow inappropriate when it

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Speaker 3: came to Palestinian rights, and this double standard I've encountered

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Speaker 3: it constantly in my work. The insistence that the Pastadian

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Speaker 3: cause is uniquely problematic, uniquely in need of being kept

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Speaker 3: out of polite conversation or unreasonable. This insistence falls apart

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Speaker 3: the moment you compare it to any other conflict where

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Speaker 3: the West has chosen a side. Now, the World Cup

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Speaker 3: made that visible in real time. When the Palestidian flag

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Speaker 3: showed up in a stadium in Doha, it wasn't just

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Speaker 3: a symbol of solidarity. It was an argument. It said,

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Speaker 3: this issue is not resolved. We have not moved on.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't matter what the Abraham records said or how

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Speaker 3: many photo ops it's going to make any of this

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Speaker 3: go away.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 3: I want to dwell for a minute on Morocco full disclosure.

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Speaker 3: That's the team I support. I hope they go as

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Speaker 3: far as possible. But Morocco is an interesting case, and

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Speaker 3: I think it illuminates something about the limits of top

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Speaker 3: down normalization. Like I said, in governments signed the apraamic courts,

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Speaker 3: and the deal actually included US recognition of Moroccan sovereignty

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Speaker 3: over Western Sahara, which Morocco has long occupied. Itself a

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Speaker 3: case of a people's right to self determination being traded

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Speaker 3: away in this diplomatic agreement situation. So it was a

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Speaker 3: completely cynical arrangement all around. And yet when Morocco beat

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Speaker 3: Spain and reached the semi finals, their players held up

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Speaker 3: the Palestinian flag. When Morocco beat Portugal and the streets

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Speaker 3: of robot and Casablanca erupted, the Palstinian flag was there too,

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Speaker 3: and fans in Doha who had traveled from across North

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Speaker 3: Africa and the Middle East were wearing Palstinian Kafia's chanting

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Speaker 3: for Palestine. Now, the Moroccan government's deal with Israel did

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Speaker 3: not transfer to the Moroccan people. And this is the

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Speaker 3: key insight from the World Cup, the one that I

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Speaker 3: keep coming back to that governments can sign papers, but

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Speaker 3: they can't really sign on behalf.

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Speaker 4: Of public sentiment.

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Speaker 3: And these countries are not democratic, so any kind of

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Speaker 3: push to do something like this seems like a betrayal

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Speaker 3: to their own citizens. And they can't normalize what has

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Speaker 3: not been normalized in the hearts and minds of their

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Speaker 3: own There is a kind of arrogance in the Abraham

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Speaker 3: Recurts framework. The assumption is that if you get the

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Speaker 3: right signatures, if you get the right photo op on

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Speaker 3: the White House lawn, that the conflict can be ignored

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Speaker 3: that the Pastadian cause can recede, but the World Cup

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Speaker 3: was a direct refutation of that assumption. Now I've been

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Speaker 3: thinking about all of this in the context of everything

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Speaker 3: that has happened since the genocide in Gaza, the daily images,

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Speaker 3: the death tolls, the wholesale destruction of Gazan society, and

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Speaker 3: the ongoing question of what normalization means now and whether

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Speaker 3: any of those Abraham courts frameworks can survive what the

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Speaker 3: world has watched happen.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: I do think it will survive. These governments do not

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Speaker 3: care about what happened in Gaza. But what it shows

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Speaker 3: is that the fears around the Abraham recurts were completely founded.

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Speaker 3: Ignoring the Israeli Pastadian conflict would lead to an escalation

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Speaker 3: in the violence. I think the World's Cup moment was

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Speaker 3: a preview back in twenty twenty two. It told us

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Speaker 3: something about where popular Arab opinion actually was, not where

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Speaker 3: governments claimed it was and not where Western media assumed

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Speaker 3: it was, but where it actually was. And it showed

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Speaker 3: us that organized strategic activism can channel that sentiment at

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Speaker 3: something visible and politically costly for the forces of normalization.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: Katar Youth, a post a normalization. Was a small group,

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Speaker 3: and they were operating under real restrictions in a country

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Speaker 3: that doesn't allow independent civil society, and they still managed

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Speaker 3: to turn a global sporting event into one of the

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Speaker 3: most visible expressions of Palestinian solidarity in years. And that

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Speaker 3: matters not because a football tournament, a soccer tournament, is

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Speaker 3: going to solve anything.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't.

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Speaker 3: Palestinian families don't get their homes back because people flew

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Speaker 3: a flag in a stadium. But movements build over time

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Speaker 3: and through moments of visibility, through the accumulation of pressure,

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Speaker 3: and through the refusal to let the issue disappear into

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Speaker 3: a manufactured consensus that was never real to begin with.

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Speaker 3: And today in twenty twenty six, this is not specific

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Speaker 3: to air of publics. Even Western publics have seen their

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Speaker 3: governments ignore genocide, have seen their rights recede as their

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Speaker 3: government's ally to protect genocide in a variety of ways.

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Speaker 3: Now I'll end with something a little more personal. When

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Speaker 3: I watched those World Croup crowds back in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 3: when I saw all these different Arabs, Moroccans and Tunisians

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Speaker 3: and Saudis, people from countries that have varying and complicated

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Speaker 3: relationships with this issue. All waiving the Palestinian flag, I

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Speaker 3: felt a kind of hope, and it's not naive. It's

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Speaker 3: not the hope that this will be resolved soon or easily,

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Speaker 3: but the hope that says Palestinians are not alone and

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Speaker 3: the cause is not forgotten. And the silence that has

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Speaker 3: been imposed on this question, attempted silence top down for

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Speaker 3: so long, is not the consent it pretends to be.

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Speaker 3: Governments can sign a chords, but they can erase what

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Speaker 3: people know, and they cannot sign away what people feel.

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Speaker 3: When they watch a team lose and a flag goes

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Speaker 3: up in a stadium and thousands of people start chanting.

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Speaker 3: Palestine keeps showing up uninvited at every table that tries

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Speaker 3: to exclude it, and I think it will keep doing that.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening to it could happen here.

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Speaker 3: I'm don algirt.

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Speaker 6: Before we start. I want to make something inescapably clear.

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Speaker 6: I am not against human rights or the ideals they

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Speaker 6: embody and aspire to. Human rights are in fact a

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Speaker 6: flawed attempts at making the world a better place for

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Speaker 6: all human beings. And it is exactly those flaws that

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Speaker 6: I want to address here. Just having universal human rights

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Speaker 6: does not mean any progress or any improvements in that

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Speaker 6: regard are no longer necessary. To reach those there needs

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Speaker 6: to be in depth conversations and critiques. I've deliberately chosen

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Speaker 6: a provocative title to start this episode. If sad title

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Speaker 6: makes it through post production, because I think the best

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Speaker 6: way to have this conversation is if we temporarily strip

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Speaker 6: any blind assumptions. There should not, for the time being,

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Speaker 6: be a's standard answer to just defouled back to So

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Speaker 6: let me say it again. The concepts and ideals of

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Speaker 6: universal human rights are good and well intended. This is

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Speaker 6: not a plea against either of those. This is just

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Speaker 6: to ensure that we can all engage with the flaws

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Speaker 6: and the criticisms that are currently late at the feat

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Speaker 6: above those human rights. Please don't hate me further. There

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Speaker 6: will be some abstract concept and theories here. I'll do

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Speaker 6: my best to explain them in Layman's terms. Unfortunately, the

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Speaker 6: Ivory Tower of the university is still a thing, and

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Speaker 6: I think this bit should be accessible to everyone, not

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Speaker 6: just university educated people. So if I'm being a bit

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Speaker 6: reductive or unnnuanced, it is to make it widely available.

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Speaker 6: And with that, Hello everyone, welcome to this could happen here.

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Speaker 6: I am Mick. I'm joined by the lovely James Stout.

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Speaker 6: Hi James, how are you doing? Hey good, I'm good.

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Speaker 6: I'm excited about this. Yeah, we're going to go through

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Speaker 6: a lot today. When I pitched this, I thought it

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Speaker 6: would be just a fun thirty minute episode and now

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Speaker 6: we're at like five thousand words and ten pages of script.

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Speaker 6: So yeah, these things can get away from me. Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 6: And there's always the content, it's always context. You can

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Speaker 6: just throw things out there. But I had to kill

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Speaker 6: some darlings unfortunately. But there we go. So to start off,

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Speaker 6: we first have to explore a little bit about the

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Speaker 6: history of human rights and how they came to be.

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Speaker 6: When we are talking about right, we are speaking of

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Speaker 6: either a legal, a social, or an ethical rule that

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Speaker 6: is connected to legal systems, social conventions, or neu ethical

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Speaker 6: standpoints that are seen as normal for a certain group

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Speaker 6: at a certain time. Because they evolved, they change. These

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Speaker 6: rights are often inscribed, codified, or written down in either

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Speaker 6: legal documents or in the public consciousness. And what I

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Speaker 6: mean by the latter is like or make a queue

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Speaker 6: for the bus or the train. It's not something that's

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Speaker 6: often written down in illegal code or something. It's just

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Speaker 6: an unwritten rule that exists between the people the convention.

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Speaker 6: Most likely, if you're going to skip cues, you'll never

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Speaker 6: be prosecuted or find for that. People will probably think

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Speaker 6: you're a bit of an asshole. So the Universal Declaration

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Speaker 6: of Human Rights was signed in nineteen forty eight by

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Speaker 6: the UN. Prior to this, the concept of human rights

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Speaker 6: was largely found in the idea of natural rights. The

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Speaker 6: very first historical notion of this that we know of

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Speaker 6: was in the Zoroastrian religion in the Iran region, which

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Speaker 6: thought that citizens have a fundamental right to enlightened leadership

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Speaker 6: and that people had the right to rise up against

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Speaker 6: those who are wicked. Similar ideas surrounding rights are also

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Speaker 6: found in ancient Greek philosophy, like the Epicurean school of

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Speaker 6: thought and the Stoics. Later, it was also explicitly named

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Speaker 6: by Roman philosophers, which they probably stole from the Greeks,

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Speaker 6: like Cicero and Seneca, that that Cicero once said that

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Speaker 6: we are born for justice, and that right is based

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Speaker 6: not upon opinions, but upon nature. And I think This

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Speaker 6: is important into the Zubin not a bit. Romans were

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Speaker 6: very not a very religious, but it was a religious society.

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Speaker 6: They had tons of deities. But despite that, it's to

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Speaker 6: nature that Cicero make makes that claim. Yeah, as opposed

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Speaker 6: to God or God's right exactly. There's something innate or

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Speaker 6: something by virtue of being human that it gives you

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Speaker 6: those rights. Yeah, there was. In the seventeenth century was

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Speaker 6: the English philosopher John Locke, who discussed similar things, particularly

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Speaker 6: that fundamental rights as he called them, such as life, liberty,

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Speaker 6: and a state. A state meaning property in this case

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Speaker 6: are things that could not be handed over or transferred

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Speaker 6: under the social contract. With social contract, it is often

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Speaker 6: meant that you, as an individual have surrendered some of

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Speaker 6: your rights and handed them over to the authority under

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Speaker 6: which you fall or to which you are subject. Often

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Speaker 6: this exchange translates to that the authority to which you

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Speaker 6: hand it over will then protect your remaining rights. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Usually this is strained as consensual, as a voluntary deal

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Speaker 6: you make or have made with again, whichever authority happens

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Speaker 6: to hold control over you. I also think it's worth

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Speaker 6: noting that consent implies an active decision with like knowledge

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Speaker 6: and circumstances and the ability to consent. And this is

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Speaker 6: just my own personal gripe. Whenever people refer back to

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Speaker 6: the social contract, it's like I didn't agree to anything.

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Speaker 6: I must have missed that meeting.

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Speaker 7: But yet it relies on this like thought experiment, right,

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Speaker 7: like this idea of like would someone in ex circumstance do?

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Speaker 5: Why?

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Speaker 6: I think this is.

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Speaker 7: What Hobbes does, right, Yes, Like I guess Hobb's lock

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Speaker 7: and Rousseau would be the people you'd want to read

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Speaker 7: if you wanted to learn more about this. In Rejava,

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Speaker 7: they have an explicit social contract, right, which is like

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Speaker 7: a document, and people do get too consent on it.

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Speaker 7: I guess I should say consult rather than consent, right,

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Speaker 7: There was a long consultative process was part of the

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Speaker 7: formation of the metric and social contracting Java as opposed

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Speaker 7: to like requiring like universal consensus to be to be established.

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Speaker 6: Once again, ros Javaz leading away, Yeah, showing us all

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Speaker 6: the way. That's that's right to be unusual. Yeah, we

435
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 6: will be touching a little bit on Hobs and Rousseau. Okay, fine,

436
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 6: but this some of the latter bid up like the

437
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 6: virtue of being born hardly checks my boxes for active consent.

438
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 6: But yeah, you know, I think there's some bureaucrat out

439
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 6: there who will disagree with me on that. As you said, James,

440
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 6: the idea of the social contract came from philosophers like

441
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 6: Rousseau and Hobbes and our Court, who are contemporary understanding

442
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 6: of like social and political theory, and are also foundational

443
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 6: to like most liberal democracies, the ideas is following. At first,

444
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 6: there was like no state and no authority, and everyone

445
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 6: was in a state of nature where human existence was

446
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 6: harsh and brute and short. Yeah, nasty, brutish in short

447
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 6: is the like here's the exact words the Hobbs quite

448
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 6: that gets deployed a lot about people and things, yes,

449
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 6: ignoring the fact that Hobbes was an idiot.

450
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, and that life without the state is not nasty,

451
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 7: brutish and short.

452
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 6: And we have a lot of examples of this. But no,

453
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 6: but it's this retroactive justification because this is how things

454
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 6: are now. So I am inventing a story to justify

455
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 6: how we end up here.

456
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like Jim Scott, I guess kind of deals with

457
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 7: this a little bit right in the art of not

458
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 7: being governed when he's talking about the idea that those

459
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 7: who exist without the state are behind those who exist

460
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 7: within the state, as opposed to just on a different

461
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 7: pathway they've chosen to follow.

462
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, because like we need we need the authority, and

463
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 6: you need a social contract because otherwise humanity is just

464
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 6: subject to its own worst impulses, like our hunger games

465
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 6: without the dystopian stuff inside it. Therefore, there is we

466
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 6: need authority, which was created to keep this state of

467
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 6: nature at bay and make or keep us civilized. And

468
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 6: this also then ties in with like the monopoly on violence,

469
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 6: because that is one of the rights that you surrender

470
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 6: under this social contract and is given to specialized government

471
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 6: forces in order to use the violence that is necessary

472
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 6: to maintain order. As a small side note, the whole

473
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 6: state of nature thing is pretty much bullshit. On why

474
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 6: that is is discussed at length in the Dawn of

475
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 6: Everything by David Graber and David Wengro, But it would

476
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 6: be way to watch the also include here you'd have

477
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 6: to listen to me all week.

478
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 7: I do have an audiobook at the Door of Everything,

479
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 7: and it is it's a lot of audiobook, Like.

480
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's such a massive book, just massive. Just as

481
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 6: a small clarification before we move on, there are many

482
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 6: more notable figures who've written about like natural rights, Francis

483
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 6: Hudgeon Hegel, and Thomas Pain. Clearly, there are also many

484
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 6: more who did that in the American context, like Thomas Jefferson.

485
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 6: But everyone listening to this nose the American stuff way

486
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 6: better than I do, so I'll just skip that, including

487
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 6: the parts where Jefferson was pretty selective on who counted

488
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 6: as a human being and who didn't. Many such cases here,

489
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 6: many such cases. Unfortunately it has not gone away as

490
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 6: much as it should have. Yeah, So the biggest criticism

491
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 6: that we have here to address against natural rights is

492
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 6: that you can draw from facts. It's something that you

493
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 6: say is out there, but you can prove it through

494
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 6: science or through empirical research, through data collection. It's something

495
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 6: that comes from tradition, authority, or morality. There is no

496
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 6: argument to be made that it exists in the same

497
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 6: way as the coffee on my desk as I'm writing this.

498
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 6: To put it very bluntly, natural rights being inherent or

499
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 6: unalienable is just saying they exist because I say so.

500
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 6: It has just as much weight as me claiming that

501
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 6: I now own James's chickens, which I now do. It

502
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 6: is a fact you have.

503
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 7: To fight me for them and surrendering them monopoly on shakins. Yes,

504
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 7: you know, you know where I live. You can you

505
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 7: can fat at them to me.

506
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 6: Yeah. So what has happened is by putting these natural

507
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 6: rights into law, we can make them like real or

508
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,239
Speaker 6: tangible in the sense that there is something you can

509
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 6: point to, like that thing says it, or this law

510
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 6: says it. It transforms natural rights from something that is

511
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 6: scientifically baseless into like a part of the social contract

512
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 6: and thus should be upheld by whatever authority, state, or

513
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 6: government you happen to be subject to. The creation of

514
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 6: constitutions in democracies is like a very explicit attempt to

515
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 6: make rights real. But as we all know, they're also

516
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 6: not infallible. In the wake of the horrors of the

517
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 6: Second World War, the international community drafted and voted on

518
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 6: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was a massive

519
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 6: step at the time. Of the fifty eight member states

520
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 6: at the time, forty eight voted in favor, two did

521
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 6: not participate, an AID abstained from voting. For those who

522
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 6: are paying attention, there are so little countries that voted

523
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 6: on it, because judges were less countries back then, and

524
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 6: an exact number is very hard to find because all

525
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 6: data sets and all definitions just differ. To this day,

526
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 6: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is still one of

527
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 6: the most significant milestones of the twentieth twentieth century. It

528
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 6: has pretty neutral language in terms of culture, religion, or

529
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 6: any particular political system. It also became a stepping stone

530
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 6: for the International Bill of Human Rights and several different treaties,

531
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 6: with all one hundred and ninety three UN member states

532
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 6: as of now as signing at least one or more

533
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 6: of those treaties. Yeah, I can't understate how massive that

534
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 6: achievement is, and before we were actually criticizing it, I

535
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 6: do think it's right to recognize it. And that isn't perfect,

536
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 6: which is why we're also going to kick against its

537
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 6: shinbone for a while. So to the surprise of no one,

538
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 6: human rights are flawed but good. They've also been used

539
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 6: pretty disingenuously, and that is where, like this start, they

540
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 6: have often been used as a justification for war to

541
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 6: obscure or hide other motivations, like I think of the

542
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 6: Iraq war. No, not that one. The Iraq in the

543
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 6: invasion of Kuwait in the in nineteen ninety, the Saddam

544
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 6: government publicly stated that they wanted to support the revolutionary

545
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 6: government in Kuwait, that it was for our solidarity. They

546
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 6: also cited that the current administration over there was incredibly

547
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 6: unpopular and thus they had to invade for greater political

548
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 6: and economic freedom for the Kuwaiti people. What was widely

549
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 6: seen as like, the actual motivations were oil resources and

550
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 6: more regional control because of course, yeah, Russia has also

551
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 6: used human rights as a reason for invading.

552
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, you look very surprised at that, shapes I was

553
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 7: about to say the same thing, like Russia left to.

554
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 6: Do this, Yes, they did it in two thousand and eight,

555
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 6: with like when they invaded Georgia because they had to

556
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 6: protect Russian citizens and peacekeepers, while it was mainly about

557
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 6: like preventing native expansion in the newly independent Georgia. The

558
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 6: same thing happened in twenty fourteen when they first invaded

559
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 6: Ukraine because Russian speakers had to be protected from Ukrainian fascists.

560
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 6: There was also the Serbian forces in Bosnia and Kosovo,

561
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 6: where the Serbs were under threats and Indias campaign into

562
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 6: East Pakistan now known as Bangladesh, although in that latter

563
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 6: one the motivations seem a bit more muddled because it

564
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 6: appears there's some genuine concern there for human rights or

565
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 6: humanitarian aid, but again modeled limited time.

566
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 7: And I think like it's always telling like where states

567
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 7: decide it's important to go to war for human rights

568
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 7: and the right.

569
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, we're very selective when these rights need to be

570
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 6: enforced or when there's violence needed for it to be enforced.

571
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

572
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 7: No one's rolling out to defend the human rights of

573
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 7: hina people in Memma, for example.

574
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 6: No exactly, And like I think you said this at

575
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 6: some point, but like when in Me and mar the

576
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 6: revolution started, there was like an explicit appeal to like human.

577
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 7: Rights, Yeah, and like a very well lucidated appeal to

578
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 7: like R two P right, the right to protect. I

579
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 7: think I have to check responsibility to protect. It's what

580
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 7: R two P stands for, not right, but responsibility. So

581
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 7: it's a responsibility of a state to intervene in the

582
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 7: internal affairs of another state if human rights are being

583
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 7: abused in that state. It's best of my understanding of

584
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 7: it anyway, And this is as it spake strange to

585
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 7: me by many many young people in Mema. I actually

586
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 7: spoke to a young person in Memma who would orchestrated,

587
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 7: at great risk of their life, a massive R two

588
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 7: P like floating sort of symbol that could be seen

589
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 7: from the air. I guess, like explicitly to alert the

590
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 7: world that our human rights are being violated, and we

591
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 7: have human rights, so surely the people who guarantee those

592
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 7: rights question mark will intervene to protect those rights. So

593
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 7: like you saw signs explicitly calling on a SCN, on

594
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 7: the UN, on the European Union, on the United States,

595
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 7: and like also people trying to make signs that are

596
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 7: very funny so that they would go viral in English

597
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 7: because they wanted the world to see them. When they

598
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 7: figured if the world's all they'd be like, huh, human

599
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 7: rights are being violated. And it took a lot of

600
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 7: dead people for I think, because that's a very entrenched

601
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 7: view that many of us have, right, that we have

602
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 7: these rights, we do it writes any matter insofar as

603
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 7: they are someone's prepared to use force to protect them

604
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 7: in this instance, and nobody was apart from the people

605
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 7: of Memma themselves, right, So they like right, space discourse

606
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 7: still very very common there. Now those rights are backed

607
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 7: up by people who you know, initially used home made

608
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 7: and three D printed firearms and now have better firearms.

609
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 7: But like, the reason those people have those rights could

610
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 7: stay for for them, not because the rights enforced themselves

611
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 7: or any other state decided to enforce them.

612
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 6: No, exactly. It is pretty revealing that when a people

613
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 6: desperately in need for their rights to be upheld by

614
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 6: some force or by some army or whatever, and they're

615
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 6: making explicit appeals towards and the international community as a

616
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 6: wholes like, nah, they get a closer right than there is,

617
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 6: but they were unalienable, so yeah, great, they still technically

618
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 6: had them sort of maybe right, Yeah, they should have

619
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 6: bought a premium package. And also yes, the US invasion

620
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 6: of Iraq in two thousand and three, yeah, I did

621
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 6: not forget. It was very much justified. There's a mission

622
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 6: of liberation and freeing people from a dictator. Well it

623
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 6: was much again oil and influence, as it always says,

624
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 6: which is why you will now have to listen to

625
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 6: ads so cools and media can get some much needed

626
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 6: oil and influence. Nice, and we're back now loaded with

627
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 6: petro dollars. It is time to dive deeper into the critiques.

628
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 6: So someone whose work was incredibly influential in the realm

629
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 6: of philosophy and ethics was Simon Veil James. I think

630
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 6: you may have heard of her.

631
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, she was with the De Ruti column in the

632
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 7: International Group. She burned herself frying eggs in a house

633
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 7: they liberated and had to go home.

634
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, she is a fascinating figure.

635
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, that someone who just like forest gumps through through

636
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 7: like the history of amazing things in that time period.

637
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 6: Yes, it was like I have written this down in

638
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 6: the script, but when she was eight or nine she

639
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 6: refused to eat chocolate or something. It's solidarity with the

640
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 6: soldiers overseas or the soldiers who were fighting in World

641
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 6: War One. There's tons of like incredible stuff in there. Amazing.

642
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 6: I didn't know that. Like, she taught at the university,

643
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 6: but then in nineteen thirty four she took a leave

644
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 6: of absence from teaching to work anonymously in two different

645
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 6: labor factories because she better wanted to understand the working class.

646
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 6: A few years later she would join the anarchist do

647
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 6: Ruti column as you said, and fight in the Spanish

648
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 6: Civil War, where she very badly wanted to fight despite

649
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 6: her outspoken pacifism, but her comrades held her back because

650
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 6: she was incredibly near sighted that they were like, yeah,

651
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 6: we don't trust you with this machine gun, which fair. Yeah.

652
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 6: And she died eventually at a very young age in

653
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 6: nineteen forty three due to her poorer health. That is,

654
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 6: while she was sick, she would only eat whatever she

655
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 6: thought the residents of Nazi occupied France would be able

656
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 6: to eat, and refuse to eat more. As her biographer

657
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 6: Richard Reese summed up as for her death, whatever explanation

658
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 6: one may give of it, it will amount in the

659
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 6: end to saying that she died of love. Well, that's bad.

660
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 7: As in my book, Yeah, yeah, that's a cool way

661
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 7: of phrasing two it is BEAUTI presented.

662
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:26,959
Speaker 2: Yeah.

663
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 6: Simon was very critical of the concept of rights, and

664
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 6: she much preferred to speak of obligations. The latter, she argued,

665
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 6: are much more fundamental than rights, because rights are only

666
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 6: meaningful to the extent that others respect those rights. To her,

667
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 6: rights are relative and related to certain conditions, while obligations

668
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 6: exist outside those conditions. On the surface, this may seem

669
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 6: like the same criticism we had earlier that they only

670
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 6: exist out there and only because I say so. But

671
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 6: I think she moves further than that, because she sees

672
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 6: a system that has its foundation on these obligations, specifically

673
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 6: what she calls the need for a soul to hear.

674
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 6: These needs are the things that we as human beings

675
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 6: require to thrive, food, shelter, medicine, but also like equality,

676
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 6: freedom of opinion, and security in the form of not

677
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 6: having any persistent fears. There are many more in her book.

678
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 6: I'm not going to delve a buch deeper in it

679
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 6: because I think, like the just this out there, this

680
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 6: may seem like a very theoretical difference, but let me

681
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 6: illustrate what I think is a very strong example of

682
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 6: like rights versus obligations. I have stolen this metaphor from

683
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 6: the philosophized this podcast, Okay, from the episode in which

684
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 6: the host discusses the modern day concentration camp and Georgio Agambin.

685
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,280
Speaker 6: So all the credit to that host for this metaphor.

686
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 6: So let's get back to those chickens that used to

687
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 6: belong to James, but that I now own, like it

688
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 6: is my right in a legal and economic sense to

689
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 6: sell these at the market, and it is my right

690
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 6: to sell them for any price that I think they

691
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 6: are worth, just as it is my right to very

692
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 6: quickly go out of business because nobody wants to buy

693
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 6: my five thousand dollars chickens. And now I'm going to

694
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 6: be a bit provocative. I just feel free to respond.

695
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 6: What if someone were to be forced into prostitution, either

696
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 6: by coercion or violence? Okay, why is that wrong? Why

697
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 6: is that disgusting and abhorrent? Yeah, for many reasons. Is

698
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 6: the reason for that because this person has a legal

699
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 6: right to not be forced into prostitution? Or is there

700
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 6: something else going on there?

701
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 7: But there's a lot there's a lot more going on there, right,

702
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 7: Like it's apart because it's like disgusting to us as

703
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 7: people that someone's supposed to do this without that consent

704
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 7: and without consenting like actively to doing a thing that

705
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 7: they are being forced to do against their will exactly.

706
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 6: But it speaks to the nature of right that your

707
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 6: first instinct is not to say, oh, but that's against

708
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 6: the law. Yeah, your first instinct is to say, like,

709
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 6: oh jeez, that's fucked up. Yeah, that's wrong, and it

710
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 6: is wrong because what you're doing is like violating the agency,

711
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 6: the autonomy, the dignity, the sense of belonging to themselves

712
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 6: and their bodies. It is something that it is much

713
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 6: more a gut feeling, something that is that exists out there,

714
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 6: rather than like pointing to a law twenty three, subsection two,

715
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 6: paragraph three, whatever, three. And we can put it in

716
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 6: a more concrete example like The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood.

717
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 6: In short, for those who are not familiar with either

718
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 6: the book or the show, it's about a patriarchal, totalitarian republic,

719
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 6: very religious, where some women are forcibly assigned to powerful

720
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 6: and high status men to bear children for them. Now,

721
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 6: in this society, the sexual violence, the forced pregnancies, the births,

722
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 6: they're entirely legal, like the people doing it, and that's

723
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 6: not just the men in those books. They are doing

724
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 6: it within their rights. It is legal what they're doing.

725
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 6: But also going to ask you as like the listener,

726
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 6: does that make it any less fucked up?

727
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like, I guess we can argue the same thing

728
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 7: in any Islamic state, right, there were people who were

729
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 7: forced into slavery, sexually assaulted.

730
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,919
Speaker 6: Sexual violence was commonplace. It was at least accepted.

731
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 7: I'm not familiar with the exactly legal structures of the

732
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 7: Islamic state with regard to epicentainly that it was widespread

733
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 7: and not condemned, and like that doesn't matter. It was

734
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 7: still wrong. It was still disgusting, right, which is why people,

735
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 7: including people in Kurdistan, decided to take up arms against it,

736
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 7: and very rightfully. So, yeah, I guess they're like universal

737
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 7: human rights were violated. That their rights, and that is

738
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 7: the Islamic States so much as that was a state, which.

739
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 6: It was, we're not, yeah, and we'll get there, because

740
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 6: there's like a difference between the a so having universal

741
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 6: right and having a sovereign that is going to respect them.

742
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 6: So yeah, sorry for that painful metaphor. I think that

743
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 6: that both of these make it clear, although maybe painfully clear,

744
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 6: like legality has nothing to do with it, like the

745
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 6: rights have nothing to do with it. It's your human

746
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 6: response and lack or the fact that you have a

747
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 6: sense of decency that makes something like wrong or right. Heah,

748
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 6: So the right to not be preyed upon can be

749
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 6: taken away as all right, but the sense of injustice

750
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 6: of wrongness will not. There exists an obligation to the

751
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 6: people in your community, regardless of which community or the

752
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 6: size of it, to not do horrific shit like that

753
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 6: and in the process destroy part of someone's solemn being.

754
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 6: The lack of any empirical data does not mean that

755
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 6: there isn't something there, even if it's just like a

756
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 6: gut feeling or a sense of justice. Will and myself

757
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 6: would say it's wrong because we have an obligation to

758
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 6: to respect them that by like just being born human,

759
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 6: you have to have your agency and your autonomy and

760
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 6: your dignity respected. But do you know what will destroy

761
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 6: your soul and being products service is support this podcast?

762
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 6: It definitely is. They already have And we're back after

763
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 6: the identity crushing stream of surducts and products or whatever.

764
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 6: So quickly recap what we said before the break, which

765
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,919
Speaker 6: is that you can say that there is something beyond right,

766
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 6: as rights can conveniently be taken away when those empower

767
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 6: think that is what they need to do. It is

768
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 6: what Simon Ville would call the difference between being a

769
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 6: subject and being an object, being a subject to something

770
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 6: in the sense that you can be subject to a

771
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 6: queen through that lens. Being a subject means that you're

772
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 6: only seen as something that is value rights in relation

773
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 6: to the queen. Okay, there is a relational aspect here

774
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 6: that defines what over who you are. Being seen as

775
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 6: an object here means that you exist like in and

776
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 6: of yourself, and that you're not defined because of the

777
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 6: definition of something else. I think a good way to

778
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 6: view this is the think of someone's child, son or

779
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 6: daughter and thinking of that same person as just themselves.

780
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 6: Like in the first one, it's the relation that you emphasize.

781
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 6: In the latter, you just see them as a person,

782
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 6: regardless of like linear image or relation. Yeah, I fear

783
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 6: this next part could be rather complex, but I'll do

784
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 6: my best to go into like Layman's terms. It evolves

785
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 6: some pretty complex philosophy about authors whom many people have read.

786
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 6: But do you understand Yeah, myself included, I'm an idiot.

787
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 6: I'm just trying to make it make sense and make

788
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 6: it like clear and legible for everyone who hasn't read

789
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 6: these offers, and I probably wouldn't recommend reading them. So

790
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 6: we're speaking of Hannah Arrant and Georgio Aghamben both made

791
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 6: some major critiques of human rights, and these are in

792
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,439
Speaker 6: relation to each other. To an extent. So the start off,

793
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 6: they make distinctions and definitions on what it is to

794
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 6: be human and what it is to be recognized as

795
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 6: a human being. Ran uses the terms zoe and bios

796
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 6: for this, like the Greek terms Okay, zoe is the

797
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 6: idea and the concept of life in a purely biological

798
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 6: sense as just a biological unit that breathes, that consumes,

799
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 6: that defecates. Okay. Think of someone living alone in the

800
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 6: mountains without anyone else nearby or any contact with other

801
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 6: human beings. Like, biologically, yes, they are human, They're just

802
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 6: no denying that. But in terms of bios meaning a

803
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 6: life that has meaning and it is political, it becomes

804
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 6: less obvious that that personal learning the mountains like can

805
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 6: be recognized as human.

806
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 7: Sure, yeah, Like part of being human is being part

807
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 7: of a community, right, Like we only are able to

808
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 7: fully realize ourselves in the context of other people.

809
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 6: Exactly, And that is what what I'm getting at without

810
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 6: saying that this person of the balance is not a

811
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 6: human being, but they're isolated and not part of a community.

812
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,479
Speaker 6: Think of like making meaningful moments together with like those

813
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 6: dear to you. That that is in a sense the

814
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 6: meaning that the term bios kind of points to Yeah,

815
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 6: living alone in the woods also means like there's no

816
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 6: community or no sovereign power to hold someone accountable or

817
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 6: to uphold they're supposedly unalienable rights. As a little pointer between,

818
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 6: I'm going to use like state power, sovereign or government

819
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 6: pretty much interchangeably, because I don't want to repeat the

820
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 6: same words but or say power every two sentences. I

821
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 6: think that would make for a boring listening. But just

822
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 6: so you use the listener, not that that is somewhat intentional.

823
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 6: So it is in the context of the man in

824
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 6: the mountains that we should interpret Zoe and bios, not

825
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 6: like as in literal black and white checkboxes, but like

826
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 6: as a nuanced lens to look through. And if we

827
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 6: look through this lens, then the following pops up. For

828
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 6: someone to have BIOS, there needs to be a community.

829
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 6: There needs to be a sovereign or, as a Hanna

830
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,439
Speaker 6: Arrent would say, a political community. That can be any

831
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 6: group of people, any country, political identity, or ideology. That

832
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 6: doesn't really matter for you to belong to a political community,

833
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 6: whichever one of those categories it is. But that is

834
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 6: the most fundamental right. According to Hannah Rent, and we'll

835
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 6: get into why. She also calls it like the right

836
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 6: to have rights, the right to belong to political community

837
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 6: that in turn cherishes you and upholds those rights for you.

838
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 6: The man in the woods has no one to do

839
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 6: that for him. He lacks a certain political and legal

840
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 6: recognition of his humanity that comes with like being part

841
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 6: of community. Yeah, if we think of people on the move,

842
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,879
Speaker 6: of migrants, or of stateless people, then we can look

843
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 6: at them as not having a political community. And in

844
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 6: the context of bios is, aren't puts it there is

845
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 6: also of political community to emphasize their humanity or uphold

846
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 6: their human rights. Yeah, because there is no system or

847
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 6: sovereign that can like uphold them or enforce those ideas.

848
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 7: Sometimes like they're able to act collectively to protect each other.

849
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 6: Right like within that, but that is a different thing. Right.

850
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 7: That's that I guess you could call the obligation right,

851
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 7: that is their obligation to each.

852
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 6: Other that they are fulfilled when they do that.

853
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,760
Speaker 7: Right like that, As you say that no powerful entity

854
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 7: is obliged to protect their rights, you could look at

855
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 7: the example of outdoor attention in the US.

856
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 5: Right.

857
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 6: I remember once I was out.

858
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 7: Feeding people in outdoor attention with prop Actually he also

859
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 7: has a podcast on this network. And we ran into

860
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 7: this guy had like a he had like a polo

861
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 7: on and I said, the fuck you didn't Who the

862
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 7: fuck is this? They had like nice shoes, and I

863
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 7: was like, what's happening here? The guy was from the

864
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 7: Office of the Immigration Detention on but to it because

865
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 7: you have a bunch of rights in the US, right,

866
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 7: Like that person came along and had a clipboard and

867
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 7: they did a bunch of stuff and it didn't matter. Right,

868
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 7: there's people, a bunch of those people's rights were being violated.

869
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,399
Speaker 7: I'm sure the person ticked a bunch of boxes on there,

870
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 7: like which rights are being violated for him? It didn't

871
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 7: feed those people. We did, didn't keep them warm that night.

872
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 7: We did, didn't build them a shelter. We did right

873
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 7: like it was us for filling our obligations to each other,

874
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 7: not their theoretical rights under the state, which mattered exactly.

875
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 6: And just to point out, like the prior to that

876
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 6: not necessary saily part of your political community, but you

877
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 6: just feel that it does your obligation as a human

878
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 6: being to like I can help these people, I can

879
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 6: feed them, I can keep.

880
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 7: Them warm, Yeah, exactly, like and is it Locke who

881
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 7: does ask? Not for whom the bell tolls? It tolls

882
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 7: for thee maybe not Hemingway. Hemingway wrote the book, but

883
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 7: it's based on No, it's a man shit. We got

884
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 7: to google this because otherwise that's not for whom the

885
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 7: bell tolls. John Dunn, So other John, I think about

886
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 7: that a lot. It's something I would hear like, occasionally

887
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 7: referenced him in reference to the international brigades in the

888
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 7: Spanish Civil War, included by John McCain, who wrote in

889
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 7: a bitterery for the last American International Brigadier to die,

890
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 7: which is like one of the less shitty things John

891
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,919
Speaker 7: McCain did, which he did many shitty things, terrible things,

892
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 7: but like inherenting, that is the idea that like the

893
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 7: bell here being the funery bell, right, that like I

894
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 7: guess when humanity is devalued, my humanity is devalued, and

895
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 7: like I am not fully realizes a person if people

896
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 7: are being stripped of their dignity in my presence, in

897
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 7: my community, so like those people are not part of

898
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 7: my community, but like my community is being devalued because

899
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 7: humanity is being devalued in my community. And the way

900
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 7: I'm going to make sure that doesn't happen is by

901
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 7: stepping in in order to protect those people, to keep

902
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 7: those people safe, to show those people that fundamentally, human

903
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 7: dignity is guaranteed by the humans and not by other states.

904
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, very well said. So I have one last example here.

905
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 6: If there's too many examples for the listener, I apologize,

906
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 6: but i just want to make it clear. So I've

907
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 6: done my best to find examples and explain them. The

908
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 6: Sentinel Least people in the Bay of Bengal. I think

909
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 6: most of you have heard of them. They are like

910
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 6: an indigenous people on that are isolated on a single

911
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 6: island and they've had little to no contact with the

912
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 6: mainland or air quotes modern world. Yeah, I think in

913
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 6: twenty eighteen or something, there was a missionary.

914
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 5: Yeah.

915
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 6: Every few years, some ball end will try and go

916
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 6: and give them the Bible and they'll kill them or

917
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 6: fire arrows at them or yeah. Yeah those people. Yeah. Now,

918
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 6: like I can't guarantee that this is how what is

919
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 6: going on because I haven't spoken to them, obviously, but

920
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 6: I'm guessing that they don't speak of human rights and

921
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 6: we the nonsentinelice people don't really speak of their right

922
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 6: to healthcare, their rights to freedom of opinion. My point

923
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 6: is more that like, unless there is contact with them

924
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 6: and they become like a political community, there are no

925
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 6: really not any human rights for them to speak of

926
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 6: a bold like in a sense, they don't have human

927
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 6: rights because there is no contact and nothing to appold

928
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 6: or enforce at this point, James, this is where we

929
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 6: are going to isolate ourselves on an island until it

930
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 6: is time for part two.

931
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

932
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 6: Perfect, Looking forward to seeing you very soon again for

933
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 6: our next shin kicking badass mm hmm.

934
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 7: And I am fashioning about to defend us from Christian

935
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 7: missionaries in boats.

936
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 6: Yes, let us also throw like spears and arrows at

937
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 6: missionaries coming to our isolated island. Yep, hey everyone, welcome

938
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 6: back to it could happen here. I am still Mick,

939
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 6: and I'm still with James. If for some reason you

940
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 6: haven't listened to the first parts, I would strongly urge

941
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 6: you to do that first, because we're going to dive

942
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 6: straight in here, and I'm afraid you're going to miss

943
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 6: a lot of context and a lot of explanation as

944
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 6: to what's going on. So yes, our next shin kicking

945
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 6: bad ass is Georgio Khamben. I mentioned him before. Some

946
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 6: of you may have heard from him because around the

947
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 6: COVID pandemic his work became incredibly popular all of a sudden.

948
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,720
Speaker 6: He follows is a similar philosophical path that Theatana Arentz

949
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 6: already laid out, but he goes like a few steps further.

950
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 6: I'm sorry to say that we have once again some

951
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 6: concepts to explore before we get the go deeper. Argumbh

952
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 6: strongly uses the concept of a homo seser. It's a

953
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,800
Speaker 6: Latin term used during some time in the Roman Republic.

954
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 6: It means sacred man or a cursed man. It is

955
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 6: a person who is banned from society, might be killed

956
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 6: by anybody, but must not be sacrificed in a religious ritual.

957
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 6: So Argamben sees this as someone who is exiled from

958
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:46,720
Speaker 6: society and also not recognized as someone fits or worthy

959
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 6: of being used in religious rituals like In fact, the

960
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 6: Roman state has declared that this person is just a

961
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,760
Speaker 6: biological life form. Okay, that's in essence what this boils

962
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 6: down to holds like the sovereign power over this person.

963
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 6: Because it is like the Roman state that could enforce

964
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 6: this or retract it, but for all intents and purposes,

965
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 6: like the homosaeser is like stripped of humanity from political community,

966
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 6: essentially rightless. And this also like a really weird position

967
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 6: because you're still sort of subject to the state without

968
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 6: the state wanting anything to do with you. Yeah, almost

969
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 6: like a very one directional relationship. And agambh in turn

970
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 6: adapts this concept of the homo siser into his state

971
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 6: of exception. In his work of the same name, he

972
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 6: lays out how in times of emergency usually this is

973
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 6: what like the German philosopher Carl Schmidt often referred to,

974
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,760
Speaker 6: but agambenn is taking it in a much cooler direction

975
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,720
Speaker 6: than Carl Schmidt ever did. In times of emergency where

976
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 6: on a political level, the decision is made to increase

977
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 6: the legal power of the sol system. This increase can

978
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 6: be an addition of new laws or the adulment of others,

979
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,880
Speaker 6: but the question of how legal this is this increase

980
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 6: in power is often a very very gray area, like

981
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 6: martial laws is a good example. Like there is a real,

982
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 6: perceived or imaginary threats to the country or society and

983
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 6: thus whoever is in power invokes martial law and suddenly

984
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 6: all bets are off because they can't be restricted by

985
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 6: law in order to deal with that situation. Yeah, Like

986
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 6: many a dictator has like invoked martial law just so

987
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 6: they could like crush down on everything.

988
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think there were so many places where I

989
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 7: could think of where there's been like a state of

990
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 7: exception or a state of emergency for decades, right, I

991
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 7: mean to an extent, since the United States passed a

992
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 7: Patriot Act, or like you know, in the United States,

993
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 7: we famously have the First ten Amendment to the Constitution,

994
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 7: which are referred to as a Bill of Rights, right,

995
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 7: which enshrine many things in states are supposed to do

996
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 7: to us unless you happen to be in the border

997
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 7: enforcement zone or subject to some of these like sneak

998
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 7: and peak warrants that the Patriot Act allows, right, or

999
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 7: other piece of legislation as well. Right, Like, there are many, many,

1000
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 7: many examples of this.

1001
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, where Hannah Arnd has like very distinct like this

1002
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 6: a way and the bios and argambenz sort of sees

1003
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 6: like an in between area where yeah, you become this

1004
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 6: homosaser where like you're not really the one, you're not

1005
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 6: really the other, and in that gray area, just anything

1006
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 6: can happen.

1007
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that like humans without rights concept is yeah, useful.

1008
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, and they become so fluid in a bad way.

1009
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 6: Like if I were to arrive at like LAX, if

1010
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 6: I make the wrong joke while I'm in the gray zone,

1011
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 6: then probably every one of my ob will be searched

1012
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 6: for like drugs or other things. But once I step

1013
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 6: out of LAX, then like the LAPD can't do that

1014
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:01,760
Speaker 6: to me, right without a whole different bureaucratic legal animal

1015
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,720
Speaker 6: that they'll have to deal with. Yeah, but like physically

1016
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 6: I just took three steps yeah right, yeah, yeah.

1017
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 7: Or like if you think of the rights the migrants

1018
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 7: and refugees have, right, like they can be in the

1019
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 7: same space as someone but have completely different rights. Think

1020
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 7: about how there were hindred people are in the camps

1021
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 7: in Bangladesh, for example, like a Bangladeshi person could come

1022
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 7: there that they would have very different experiences of the

1023
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 7: state in their rights, especially if they tried to walk.

1024
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 6: Out of there. Yeah together, Or like Palestinians living in

1025
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 6: certain areas and the Palestinians will need to be able

1026
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 6: to identify themselves at each checkpoint where they have to

1027
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 6: wait two hours and Israeli personal just walk through it

1028
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 6: and wave through the guards. Yeah, they're the exception, so

1029
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 6: they can be treated differently.

1030
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, you literally have roads that they can't go on, right, Like, Yeah,

1031
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 7: a Palestinian and Israeli person is a good example. Right,

1032
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 7: they could be holding hands walking together an entry checkpoint.

1033
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 7: From the moment they entered to the moment they left.

1034
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 7: They would have completely diverting experiences and the whole different

1035
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 7: set of like legal rights and legal protections.

1036
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 6: Yeah. Another example that I wrote down here was like

1037
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 6: the pandemics and the lockdowns, because I know, at least

1038
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 6: in the Netherlands one we had lockdowns. It was very

1039
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 6: unclear as to if it was constitutionally even allowed to

1040
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 6: do that and if the crisis was severe enough to

1041
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 6: justify those measures on a legal level. Right, Yeah, that's

1042
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 6: also a discussion here. Yes, Well, I'm not an expert

1043
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 6: on the US, so I can only use my own example.

1044
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 6: Year At this point, this is where all the critiques

1045
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 6: sort of start to blend together, and this is where

1046
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 6: I hope like it's going to make the most sense.

1047
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 6: As Simon Vale already said, like rights are conditional and

1048
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 6: require power to uphold them for you as a subject.

1049
00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 6: What we run into now is this distinction between being

1050
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 6: human as a biological unit or as a political one,

1051
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 6: because the latter has access to rights the former doesn't,

1052
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 6: and as a consequence, that person becomes this homosaser in

1053
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 6: a sense, outside of society and the protections that that offers.

1054
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 6: You get all the downsides of being a subject, but

1055
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 6: none of the benefits, like the social contract sort of

1056
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 6: becomes revoked. The tricky part is that our can also

1057
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 6: treat you differently based on like biological categories or political categories,

1058
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 6: like prison labor is a very good example of this.

1059
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 6: Under the thirteenth Amendment, slave labor was made illegal except

1060
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 6: as a punishment. So as soon as power can give

1061
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 6: you a punishment, some of your rights just dissipate. Yeah,

1062
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 6: Like another one is healthcare. Like if you're a this

1063
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 6: woman experiencing like a menopausal issues, it's relatively easy to

1064
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 6: get like hormone treatments, but if you're at and ruin,

1065
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 6: it suddenly becomes incredibly difficult or downright illegal to get

1066
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 6: those very same hormones. And that's also like this categorization

1067
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 6: in order to treat someone differently. So what I think

1068
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 6: I'm trying to say is that our can also navigate

1069
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 6: in such a way that even if you are part

1070
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 6: of a political community, it can negate the rights and

1071
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 6: the human rights that should come with it by categorizing

1072
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 6: you differently. Like this is a gumbance, like massive critique,

1073
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 6: because rather than you getting human rights and getting them

1074
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 6: respected by power, it makes you dependent on power to

1075
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 6: recognize and honor it. Yeah, in a way, human rights

1076
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 6: become a liability instead of a protection because power, the sovereign,

1077
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 6: the state can still decide whether or not to recognize

1078
01:00:54,640 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 6: you as like biological or political. So one of the

1079
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 6: most tangible and powerful examples of this not being recognized

1080
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 6: comes from our good friend James President Gregory Woogie Bush

1081
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 6: and his seaside resort in Guntanamo Bay. I think I

1082
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 6: had that too correct. Under international law, you're still entitled

1083
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 6: to have certain human rights when you are detained as

1084
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 6: a prisoner of war. Yeah, I'll be citing a little

1085
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 6: bit from the third Geneva Convention in which this was

1086
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 6: like ratified. The status of POW's only applies in international

1087
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 6: armed conflict. POWs are usually members of armed forces or

1088
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 6: of one of the parties to a conflict who fall

1089
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 6: into the hands of the opposing party. The Third Geneva

1090
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 6: Convention also classifies other categories of people who have the

1091
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 6: right to POW status or maybe treated as such. POW's

1092
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 6: must be treated humanly in all circumstances. They are protected

1093
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 6: against any act of violence, as well as against intimidation, insults,

1094
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 6: and public curiosity. The International Humanitarian Law also defines the

1095
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 6: minimum acceptable conditions of the tension, covering such issues as accommodation, food, clothing, hygiene,

1096
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 6: and medical care. So you know where this is going. Yeah,

1097
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 6: because Greg water Walker Bush circumvented this all by proclaiming

1098
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 6: that certain people were not prisoners of war but rather

1099
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 6: enemy combatants and as such not subject to the protections

1100
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 6: of the Geneva Convention. It's a beaten switch that is

1101
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 6: as smart as it is like diabolical, because the power

1102
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 6: simply switches around the political community that applies to you,

1103
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 6: and suddenly they can do whatever they want to you

1104
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:54,439
Speaker 6: because you're just the biological unit.

1105
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1106
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 6: Like it's a linguistic switcheru. Yeah.

1107
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 7: And it shows how our rights are perceived in us.

1108
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 7: Lord come from the state as a guarantor of them. Right, Like,

1109
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 7: because these people were quote unquote terrorists and they weren't

1110
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 7: fighting on behalf of a state. Therefore obligations to them

1111
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 7: and to the state that we're at war with don't exist,

1112
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 7: and like so they therefore they don't have rights because

1113
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 7: there is not a state to say, hey, you're violating them,

1114
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:29,120
Speaker 7: even though many many Americans, including in many many court cases,

1115
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 7: said hey, you're violating their rights, and even when they

1116
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 7: were citizens of other countries like British people were in

1117
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 7: Guantanamo Bay.

1118
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, from all over the world. Yeah. Also, I think

1119
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 6: that there never has been a single conviction because of

1120
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 6: whatever the fuck happened in Guantanamo Bay. Yeah, they have

1121
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 6: their own special court.

1122
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 7: I don't know if they've convicted people there, but they

1123
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 7: definitely have a court there.

1124
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1125
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 7: I didn't know about the convictions, but I remember teaching

1126
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 7: a sociology course and getting into Guantanamo Bay quite a lot,

1127
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 7: but that was some time ago. I've had students who

1128
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 7: were who served at Guantanamo O Mai fuck, And I

1129
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 7: think it's fair to say that like that, the psychological

1130
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 7: damage that does to everybody involved should not be underestimated.

1131
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 7: Like it's It goes back to your idea of like

1132
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:16,360
Speaker 7: we have an inherent gut feeling of right and wrong,

1133
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 7: and participating in something that you know to be wrong

1134
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:22,439
Speaker 7: isn't good for you.

1135
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 6: It's not.

1136
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 7: It's not the same as being tortured and waterboarded, but

1137
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:28,919
Speaker 7: knowing that you are in a place. To be clear,

1138
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 7: I don't know anyone who has participated in any of

1139
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 7: that like enhanced interrogation bullshit, But just being a fucking

1140
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 7: cook in a place where that happens is still damaging,

1141
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 7: I'm sure to you and your sense of being a

1142
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 7: person who believes in their obligation to others.

1143
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, like I would not. I would not trust anyone

1144
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 6: who wouldn't be affected by that. Yeah, yeah, exactly like that.

1145
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 6: That person that the Burston was not affected by that

1146
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 6: is like either a psychopath or like that inside. Yeah,

1147
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 6: I'm not going to be nuanced about that. But this

1148
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 6: is like the core of like the entire critique against

1149
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 6: human rights, because it is simply the state decides that

1150
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 6: you look part of a political community or just cuts

1151
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 6: you off from it, and suddenly we can play like

1152
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 6: Hotel California at twenty four to seven and drive you insane. Yeah,

1153
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 6: or a lack of sleep, too old or too cold.

1154
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 6: It's so weird to have something that we are taught

1155
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 6: is like unalienable. It's actually just like the premium option,

1156
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 6: but you can't buy it, Like there is a power

1157
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 6: that has to say, oh no, this person has the

1158
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 6: premium package and you get to have human rights, like

1159
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 6: it is this right to have rights. As Aaron said,

1160
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 6: that makes it really weird because you're still dependent and

1161
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:48,520
Speaker 6: unless recognized, you're still just just an animal existing out there.

1162
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 6: It's yeah, so, and this is why I thought it

1163
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 6: would be a good idea to have this discussion, because

1164
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 6: I think we can look at every pretty much any

1165
01:05:57,480 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 6: continent at the moment and see things they're like, oh,

1166
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 6: you can see this pattern everywhere.

1167
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:05,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's very relevant to the United States right now,

1168
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 7: right because like we've got you know, Lakey Department of

1169
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,080
Speaker 7: Home Land Security going out there and doing stuff which

1170
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 7: is violative of people's rights, both in US and international

1171
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 7: law terms, and like there's been a response right by

1172
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 7: certain groups people, And I understand, right, if you have

1173
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 7: spent your whole life seeing like rights as guaranteed by

1174
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 7: the state, and the state is of anevolent actor, then

1175
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 7: it's hard to make that mind switch. I do understand that,

1176
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 7: but like it actually doesn't matter, and this is very

1177
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 7: hard for some people to gra judging by my replies

1178
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 7: on bskuy dot app, Yeah that's actually illegal. It doesn't matter, right,

1179
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 7: Like people just being like, oh, they can't do that

1180
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:42,040
Speaker 7: while they're doing it. It doesn't matter that they're violating

1181
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 7: like half the Bill of Rights in a two minute period.

1182
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 7: They're still doing it. There is no accountability because the

1183
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 7: state doesn't hold itself accountable. So like when we need

1184
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:55,920
Speaker 7: to think of a framework where like our assumptions can

1185
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:58,919
Speaker 7: line up with reality, you come back to obligations because

1186
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:02,240
Speaker 7: look at what Yeah, what do you think is right

1187
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 7: and wrong to happen to people. Yeah, we'd meet that

1188
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 7: a lot with outdoor attention actually, like when we were

1189
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 7: feeding people, Like you'd be like, hey, just trying to

1190
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 7: get help from folks, you know, they trying to be like, hey,

1191
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 7: you know, we're trying to feed these folks and help

1192
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:19,480
Speaker 7: us out, give us whatever. Like people will be asking

1193
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 7: friends and their community and then folks will be like,

1194
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:24,400
Speaker 7: well they can't do that, they have the right.

1195
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 6: To blah blah blah blah blah.

1196
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 7: You'd be like, oh, do you want to come tell them? Like,

1197
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 7: we'll see how it goes, I guess, but like they

1198
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 7: are doing it, and we have an obligation to take

1199
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:36,760
Speaker 7: care of them. And like, I think people have become

1200
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 7: very comfortable outsourcing their obligation to the state without realizing

1201
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 7: that they therefore they no longer get to decide who

1202
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:47,240
Speaker 7: gets right to when when you do that.

1203
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's important to highlight like this, this

1204
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 6: little switcher room. If you think of like the Palestine protests,

1205
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 6: like they can't outright band protests because then you're you're

1206
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:04,520
Speaker 6: very much violating the constitution, right, Yeah, but if you say, like, oh, no,

1207
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 6: but this is not because they're protesting, this is because

1208
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 6: it's anti Semitic and we need to protect these other people. Yeah,

1209
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:12,960
Speaker 6: Like the acts that are happening on the ground have

1210
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 6: not really changed, but the way you can approach this

1211
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,479
Speaker 6: from a legal and a political level become a whole

1212
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:21,640
Speaker 6: different ballgame. And I think that that doesn't pertain to

1213
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 6: human rights as much as like the example you mentioned,

1214
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:30,040
Speaker 6: but it is again this dait and switch that keeps happening. Yeah,

1215
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 6: And I'm sure everyone listening can think of times or

1216
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 6: examples of that, and it is not great. Yeah, it's

1217
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:53,680
Speaker 6: not great. Yeah, that is all I have. Unfortunately, I

1218
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 6: don't have any advice or anything or how to deal

1219
01:08:56,640 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 6: with this for you as the listener. Yeah, it doesn't

1220
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 6: help to tell if the cop they're violating your human rights,

1221
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 6: they won't listen. Yeah.

1222
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:07,719
Speaker 7: I think it could be easy for people to assume

1223
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 7: that this is a hopeless thing, right like that, like

1224
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 7: because the rights only matter when the state decides they

1225
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 7: matter that therefore they didn't matter. But it can also

1226
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,640
Speaker 7: be a hopeful thing because like maybe if we look

1227
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 7: at the example I wrote back to my book, right

1228
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:25,600
Speaker 7: of the CBS when they were in Shengal and they

1229
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:28,040
Speaker 7: were on their mountain right and the Islamic state I

1230
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:29,760
Speaker 7: think it was Isis at that time, not sure if

1231
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 7: it had declared itself the Islamic State, yet was surrounding

1232
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 7: them and like very much coming to violate every single

1233
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 7: concept of rights and decency that one can imagine for

1234
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:41,680
Speaker 7: a human being. Right and our Remember I'm interviewing a

1235
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:46,799
Speaker 7: Yepe Gay commander about this in Rajaba and him saying,

1236
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:50,479
Speaker 7: obviously I'm translating care An a direct quotation, but we

1237
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:52,439
Speaker 7: were very disappointed in the states of the world at

1238
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 7: that moment, and so we decided to go ourselves. And

1239
01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:58,719
Speaker 7: like it was a very small number, right, different accounts

1240
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:02,719
Speaker 7: have had different numbers. I think entirely Kurdish. We can

1241
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 7: we can debate of if a Zd people are Kurdish

1242
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:06,880
Speaker 7: or not, but like, it's not the place for that

1243
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 7: isn't no people from the YPG who went to the

1244
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 7: mountain and eventually built corridor with their blood, with their bodies,

1245
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 7: right to allow those people to come to Java. Now

1246
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 7: I'm fortunately those people. It's a very good example. Now

1247
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:26,920
Speaker 7: I think about actually, right, so those people acted as

1248
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 7: guarantors of someone else it's rights by fulfilling their obligation. Now,

1249
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 7: if we look at where the Azd people are in

1250
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:36,439
Speaker 7: some part not everything called a Zed person, but many

1251
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:38,799
Speaker 7: Zed people are still in refugee camps in Iraq.

1252
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 6: Right, the conditions that they are in.

1253
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 7: We hear a lot about how bad conditions are for

1254
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:45,680
Speaker 7: people in the Islamic state prisons or were. We do

1255
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 7: not hear as much about how bad conditions are for

1256
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:50,600
Speaker 7: the Azdi people. But they are bad, right, they have

1257
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 7: a right to a much better life. The states of

1258
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:55,800
Speaker 7: the world are not fulfilling that right, they are not

1259
01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 7: fulfilling their obligation to these people who did nothing other

1260
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:01,479
Speaker 7: than live the way they've lived for thousands of years.

1261
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 7: And because that way was considered to be heretical by

1262
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 7: the Islamic state, they were targeted for genocide right, and

1263
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 7: would have been killed in much greater numbers were it

1264
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:12,640
Speaker 7: not for those people who were willing to fulfill their

1265
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 7: obligation to go and defend them. And then the states

1266
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 7: of the world have let them down again, and so

1267
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:20,599
Speaker 7: you know, tried to try to find a future for themselves.

1268
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 6: So like it's, uh, we're very good at that. Yeah, yeah,

1269
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 6: this is the thing that we do. I may have

1270
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 6: a hopeful example. Us I told you, James, that I

1271
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:33,479
Speaker 6: had a random person living in my house. Yeah, and well,

1272
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:36,360
Speaker 6: for you the listeners, like through the community, it became

1273
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:39,160
Speaker 6: nonlust that there was someone who had fled an unsafe

1274
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 6: home situation legal adults. But I'm not entirely sure how

1275
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:49,360
Speaker 6: much it should say, but it sounded very serious and

1276
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:52,920
Speaker 6: we took it very seriously. And I had a spare

1277
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:55,799
Speaker 6: room at that time. I did not know this person.

1278
01:11:56,080 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 6: I only have a first name. I never learned a

1279
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:01,880
Speaker 6: second name. Or anything, never asked for idea. I thought

1280
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 6: to myself, Like, the world I want to live in

1281
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 6: is one where someone can feel safe in situations like that. Yeah,

1282
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 6: So despite me being a pretty introverted person, like I

1283
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 6: was like, Okay, come live here, because you need someplace

1284
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 6: to get back on your feet. You need somewhere to

1285
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 6: be safe. And that is a way which you can

1286
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:26,640
Speaker 6: like uphold your obligations to other people also with like

1287
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 6: the safety security without persistent fear, a roof over their heads,

1288
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 6: even just a place to cool down a bit and

1289
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 6: figure things out. And it would wreck my own political

1290
01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:42,719
Speaker 6: convictions to be able to help in such a situation

1291
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 6: and not do it because I find it a little

1292
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 6: uncomfortable to have a stranger living in my house. Also,

1293
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 6: for the record, nothing was stolen, nothing weird or bad happened.

1294
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 6: This person just lived here for a week and moved on. Yeah,

1295
01:12:57,439 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 6: but that is a way in which like you can

1296
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:01,760
Speaker 6: also in an a small way, like fulfill your your

1297
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:06,680
Speaker 6: obligation to other people and to live in accordance with

1298
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 6: like your own convictions and your own moral an ideological compus. Yeah,

1299
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 6: I think that's a great example of how you can

1300
01:13:14,240 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 6: act according to your obligation, right, get it, And we

1301
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 6: can all do that in different ways, right, different senses,

1302
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:22,920
Speaker 6: And like that's one thing. Like I liked what you

1303
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaker 6: said a lot that if the world you want to

1304
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 6: live in is one where that person can feel safe,

1305
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 6: and like we only do that by building it ourselves.

1306
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 6: My perception of politics is that, like we are wasting

1307
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:39,639
Speaker 6: our time asking the state to build that world for us,

1308
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:42,040
Speaker 6: and instead we can build it like peace by piece

1309
01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:46,240
Speaker 6: along the way. And I know people like perceive anarchism

1310
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:48,719
Speaker 6: to be like a chaotic and violent, but like most

1311
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 6: of the time when you're doing anarchism, you're making someone

1312
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 6: food or giving someone a blanket, like very really nice,

1313
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:58,519
Speaker 6: pleasant things to be doing. And like it makes me

1314
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:01,439
Speaker 6: feel better that we can make a world where that

1315
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:06,320
Speaker 6: happened through our individual actions. Yeah, very nice. David Graeber

1316
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:10,360
Speaker 6: a metaphor the air for the digging a well. So

1317
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,680
Speaker 6: like Mia likes to say, like put a transgirl on

1318
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:18,759
Speaker 6: your couch, Yeah, that's also protecting you in rights. Yes, yeah, yeah,

1319
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, I just thought of it, but yeah, put

1320
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:23,840
Speaker 6: someone on your couch who is in dire need of

1321
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:27,639
Speaker 6: a safe place. Yeah, but be also safe yourself. Clearly.

1322
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 6: I think that's all we have. James. This was depressing

1323
01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:33,559
Speaker 6: and then uplifting enough. Yeah, that's what we do here.

1324
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 6: I don't care. Yeah, well, take care of everyone, and

1325
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:37,679
Speaker 6: until next time.

1326
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:54,719
Speaker 2: Welcome back to it could happen here, a podcast about

1327
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:59,439
Speaker 2: it continuing to happen here. I'm Robert Evans, and today

1328
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:02,599
Speaker 2: I've I got a friend of the pod, Laura Jadid

1329
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:05,720
Speaker 2: in the studio, well not literally in the studio, you

1330
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 2: know how things work with the internet, folks. And last

1331
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:12,519
Speaker 2: weekend Laura traveled to the Great American State Fair in

1332
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:17,080
Speaker 2: our nation's beautiful capital of Washington, DC, where she witnessed

1333
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 2: a lovely celebration of America's two hundred and fiftieth anniversary

1334
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:22,519
Speaker 2: with no inclement weather whatsoever? Is that right, Laura?

1335
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 4: No, it was charming and beautiful and very professionally done

1336
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:26,719
Speaker 4: and everyone had a lovely time.

1337
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:30,880
Speaker 2: Awesome stuff, Laura, Yeah, let's start. Was this just kind

1338
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:32,559
Speaker 2: of as soon as he said he was doing this,

1339
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 2: you were like, well, I have to be there. This

1340
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:36,639
Speaker 2: is just simply not an option for me to miss.

1341
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:39,240
Speaker 4: I mean, I definitely wanted to go. I actually was

1342
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:40,640
Speaker 4: in town for a different I was there for a

1343
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:45,200
Speaker 4: religious extremist conference, which is a whole different. We we ended early,

1344
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:47,519
Speaker 4: and I was like, you know, I've got several hours

1345
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 4: before I need to return home. Why didn't I go

1346
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:51,680
Speaker 4: have a nice time an affair. I've been to a

1347
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 4: fair in a while.

1348
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:54,720
Speaker 2: To go to a fair, Yeah, So, how was it?

1349
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 2: Walk us through, like step by step kind of your

1350
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,720
Speaker 2: experiences at this wonderful event celebrating two hundred fifty years

1351
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:02,040
Speaker 2: as technically a country.

1352
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:05,679
Speaker 4: Yes, well, I would say the highlight, other than the weather,

1353
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:07,920
Speaker 4: which we'll get into, was going into there. There's these

1354
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:11,680
Speaker 4: little rooms where they've got booths for states and territories

1355
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 4: and departments of the government and random sponsors. And my

1356
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:17,920
Speaker 4: favorite booth I think was probably the Department of Justice

1357
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:22,599
Speaker 4: because it was completely empty. And by empty, I don't

1358
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:24,800
Speaker 4: mean there wasn't anybody there. I mean that there was

1359
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 4: a card table, three folding chairs, a battered backdrop, and

1360
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:30,160
Speaker 4: nothing else.

1361
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 5: Sure.

1362
01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:34,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was incredible. I'm perfect. It was so

1363
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:35,439
Speaker 4: heavy handed.

1364
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 2: That's great.

1365
01:16:36,280 --> 01:16:38,360
Speaker 4: You know, I know people who use subtext and they're

1366
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:40,920
Speaker 4: all cowards, and there are no cowards in this administration.

1367
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, your photos of that were really funny. So I

1368
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 2: guess the layout is like it almost sounds like a

1369
01:16:47,320 --> 01:16:49,160
Speaker 2: trade show or something. We've got like these booths for

1370
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 2: each of the states and bunch of government agencies and

1371
01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:52,439
Speaker 2: then like what all was going on?

1372
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:54,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like if a ren fare and a trade

1373
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:56,599
Speaker 4: show had a baby, and the baby had the worst

1374
01:16:56,640 --> 01:17:01,080
Speaker 4: aspects of both. It was incredible, Like you enter it,

1375
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,040
Speaker 4: and I will say this, so you know, people, you've

1376
01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:05,439
Speaker 4: probably seen pictures. Everyone's i think seen pictures of what

1377
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:07,760
Speaker 4: this thing looks like. Yeah, and the fourth of July

1378
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:09,400
Speaker 4: was different, and that there were a lot of people

1379
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 4: there because that's the day. People came from all over

1380
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 4: the country to celebrate the fourth July and d s

1381
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:16,000
Speaker 4: so it was crowded, but everything else was somehow worse

1382
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:19,760
Speaker 4: than it looked in the pictures, because like you know,

1383
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:22,160
Speaker 4: you can see the pictures of like the timou Arch

1384
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:23,920
Speaker 4: and you see how bad it looks, but there's nothing

1385
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 4: like walking towards it, and from a distance it's like, oh,

1386
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 4: that's an odd thing in the middle of a field,

1387
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:30,599
Speaker 4: but it looks fine. And then the closer you get,

1388
01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:32,479
Speaker 4: the worse it looks. And it's just this this kind

1389
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:37,120
Speaker 4: of slow dawning horror of this like uncanny Valley object.

1390
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:40,679
Speaker 4: There are the two long buildings that were just going

1391
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 4: by either side basically for like the length of the

1392
01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 4: Washington Mall, just little like tent slash trailer buildings with

1393
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,320
Speaker 4: canvas staple to them. And the canvas had this illusion

1394
01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:51,960
Speaker 4: of columns and baba leafs and stuff like that. And

1395
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 4: we've seen, you know, that's in pictures. But yeah, walking

1396
01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:58,759
Speaker 4: down the mall and seeing that optical illusion not shift

1397
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:01,560
Speaker 4: with your perspective is just it's like being in a

1398
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 4: really badly rendered video game but it's real and you're

1399
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:06,240
Speaker 4: touching grass at the same time, and it's just the

1400
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:10,360
Speaker 4: whole thing is so eerie and strange. Yeah.

1401
01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what can you tell me about like the audience, Like,

1402
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:16,479
Speaker 2: what's the vibe like on the ground when you when

1403
01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:17,960
Speaker 2: you show up at least for the first portion of

1404
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:19,400
Speaker 2: this before the weather starts to change.

1405
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:21,559
Speaker 4: Yeah. So I've been to a lot of right wing

1406
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:23,160
Speaker 4: events kind of what I do. I've been, you know,

1407
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:24,680
Speaker 4: I go to a lot of these, and this was

1408
01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:28,080
Speaker 4: less Maga forward. I'm not saying there were no Trump

1409
01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:30,160
Speaker 4: hats or Trump shirts, but they were. It was mostly

1410
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:33,439
Speaker 4: just like America Hell yeah, but everybody there was was

1411
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:36,680
Speaker 4: very clearly Republican. Everyone assumed everyone else was a Republican.

1412
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:40,120
Speaker 4: The booth operators assumed everybody was a Republican, a pretty

1413
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:43,920
Speaker 4: pretty fa safe assumption. It was maga light, I'd say,

1414
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 4: I mean, it was almost more horrifying in that way,

1415
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:47,800
Speaker 4: because it felt like it was kind of realizing their

1416
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:50,640
Speaker 4: fantasy of like all real Americans supporting Trump. You know,

1417
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:52,920
Speaker 4: these were all the real Americans out here celebrating America.

1418
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:55,320
Speaker 4: It was regular folks who think Trump's doing a great

1419
01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:57,960
Speaker 4: job and aren't at all disgusted by this fair So

1420
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:00,719
Speaker 4: the vibes were kind of cheerfully brand I'd.

1421
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:04,360
Speaker 2: Say, cheerfully rancid. Yeah, what a great term to describe

1422
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:07,360
Speaker 2: the country as a whole. Right now, do you have

1423
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 2: any kind of like top fhaves, Like of the of

1424
01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:12,040
Speaker 2: the things you saw, like on the ground, they're like,

1425
01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 2: what stuff really stuck out to you?

1426
01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:14,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1427
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:17,680
Speaker 4: So, initially, before the weather went to hell and by

1428
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 4: focus changed, I decided, because you know, there's been a

1429
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:22,840
Speaker 4: lot of articles about how absolutely got awful and dumb

1430
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 4: and silly the sarahs, I decided to do something a

1431
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:26,719
Speaker 4: little different. I was going to go to every single

1432
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:29,960
Speaker 4: state and territory booth and rank them, and the variety

1433
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:33,120
Speaker 4: in the state and territory booths I found interesting. You know,

1434
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:36,400
Speaker 4: you had Oregon. Actually I gave out some like fake

1435
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:38,479
Speaker 4: awards when I wrote about this on my sub stack,

1436
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:40,960
Speaker 4: and Oregon won the most fuck You award. It's close,

1437
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:43,200
Speaker 4: but it was just this very small booth. Two of

1438
01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:46,280
Speaker 4: the walls blank white canvas, kind of plastic y, and

1439
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:48,120
Speaker 4: then there was just like a thing that said Oregon

1440
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:50,240
Speaker 4: the beever state, and there was kind of a little

1441
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:52,559
Speaker 4: banner of some of the things that are in Oregon,

1442
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:56,320
Speaker 4: and a Columbia sports like bag just kind of clipped

1443
01:19:56,360 --> 01:19:58,200
Speaker 4: to it with like like just a you know, a

1444
01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:00,840
Speaker 4: kitchen clip. I was like, yeah, that that wins this.

1445
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:02,719
Speaker 2: Yeah that Oregon.

1446
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:06,640
Speaker 4: Baby. It was great. It was great. And then you

1447
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:09,560
Speaker 4: had like Puerto Rico, which was clearly sponsored by the

1448
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 4: businesses that want people to go to Puerto Rico for

1449
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:13,000
Speaker 4: the tax breaks. And it was very lush and there

1450
01:20:13,040 --> 01:20:15,720
Speaker 4: were big screens and it was populated entirely by hot

1451
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:17,680
Speaker 4: Puerto Rican guys. You were teaching Middle America how to

1452
01:20:17,720 --> 01:20:19,639
Speaker 4: salsa and everyone enjoyed that very much.

1453
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:21,240
Speaker 2: So, oh yeah, that sounds good.

1454
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:26,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, Georgia's was completely about poultry. AI generated entirely pictures

1455
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:28,719
Speaker 4: of poultry sponsored by Purdue Chicken.

1456
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:31,000
Speaker 2: Uh huh. That's what I think of when I think

1457
01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:31,599
Speaker 2: of Georgia.

1458
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:35,599
Speaker 4: Of course, poultry obviously, Yeah, the infamous Georgia poultries. Yes.

1459
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:38,639
Speaker 4: And so it was like some states went all out.

1460
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:40,639
Speaker 4: Some states kind of were like, you should visit our states.

1461
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:43,799
Speaker 4: Some states were like, we sold this booth to a company,

1462
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:46,360
Speaker 4: and then some states were like, this is a booth,

1463
01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:47,160
Speaker 4: we are here.

1464
01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:51,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're legally required, Yes, we have we.

1465
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:54,000
Speaker 4: Have fulfilled our required to have an object at this fair.

1466
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:54,519
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1467
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:57,440
Speaker 4: And then there were these like little flashes of normalcy

1468
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:01,440
Speaker 4: and this otherwise very abnormal event were almost more disconcerting

1469
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:03,160
Speaker 4: because it was like a glimpse of what might have been.

1470
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:06,800
Speaker 4: Like the DC Metro had a full scale subway car,

1471
01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:10,280
Speaker 4: like three subway cars linked up mock up railroad and

1472
01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:12,400
Speaker 4: you go inside it. It was like a museum of

1473
01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:15,880
Speaker 4: the history of the Metro and how it's helped DC

1474
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:18,559
Speaker 4: and how it was built and fun facts about the Metro,

1475
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:20,600
Speaker 4: and it's like kind of a boring exhibit, but it

1476
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:24,599
Speaker 4: was an apolitical celebration of a real achievement. Oh yeah,

1477
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:27,519
Speaker 4: yeah right, and so you know, naturally freedom two fifty

1478
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:29,640
Speaker 4: hits that behind one of the long Low buildings, and

1479
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:32,320
Speaker 4: also a twenty four to seven Christian Revival tent, just

1480
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:35,679
Speaker 4: to be sure nobody accidentally stumbled on anything that wasn't

1481
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:36,480
Speaker 4: just weird.

1482
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 2: As hell, just to make sure there wasn't anything that

1483
01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:41,800
Speaker 2: like Americans broadly could enjoy exactly.

1484
01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:44,000
Speaker 4: We can't have that, like, yeah, it has to be here,

1485
01:21:44,040 --> 01:21:45,160
Speaker 4: but you don't have to put it out of the

1486
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:45,920
Speaker 4: way to worry about it.

1487
01:21:46,040 --> 01:21:48,040
Speaker 2: Everything's gotta be culture war oriented.

1488
01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:48,479
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1489
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:51,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that was kind of the most normal if

1490
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:53,719
Speaker 4: I had to pick a most abnormal, and it's it's tough,

1491
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:55,800
Speaker 4: it's it's a that's a that's a crowded field.

1492
01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1493
01:21:56,320 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 4: The Department of Education booth was completely yes, banners by

1494
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:03,800
Speaker 4: far right organizations.

1495
01:22:04,200 --> 01:22:06,240
Speaker 2: Awesome, Great, I love see that.

1496
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:06,720
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1497
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:10,679
Speaker 2: So yeah, just purely the most like racist homeschooling, forward

1498
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 2: cut school funds, vouchers, yay, like, oh, teach kids, Vietnam

1499
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:18,479
Speaker 2: didn't happen, gay people don't exist kind of bullshit. Great,

1500
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:19,920
Speaker 2: what a turning point.

1501
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:22,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah very much. America is a Christian nation.

1502
01:22:22,640 --> 01:22:25,960
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, So weirdly, I was. I was surprised TSA

1503
01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 4: wasn't in there, one of the ones trigger You obviously,

1504
01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:30,720
Speaker 4: you know, the Premier University of America, Prager You was

1505
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:33,280
Speaker 4: in there. Also a thing called Patriot Academy, which I

1506
01:22:33,320 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 4: wrote an article about them in twenty twenty two, not

1507
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:37,360
Speaker 4: realizing they would be part of our education system at

1508
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:40,320
Speaker 4: the time. But I went to their constitutional self defense

1509
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 4: course at the Whitnington Center in New Mexico, where we

1510
01:22:43,240 --> 01:22:45,879
Speaker 4: learned how to shoot handguns and also about the biblical

1511
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:47,240
Speaker 4: origins of our constitution.

1512
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 2: So that's good.

1513
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:50,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems like a good thing to teach kids.

1514
01:22:51,040 --> 01:22:53,439
Speaker 4: It seems like a really good program to implement, maybe,

1515
01:22:53,560 --> 01:22:54,879
Speaker 4: you know, in our school systems.

1516
01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not optimistic about the fact that that's the

1517
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:01,439
Speaker 2: depart of Educations booth.

1518
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's not Baltimore.

1519
01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:07,960
Speaker 2: Not great. Yeah, any other like weird kind of culture

1520
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:11,439
Speaker 2: war signifiers at the booths that are particularly noteworthy.

1521
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:13,600
Speaker 4: I mean, so this has been discussed elsewhere, but it

1522
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:16,720
Speaker 4: curely can't be mentioned enough. It feels like very emblematic.

1523
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:18,640
Speaker 4: If the time we're in there was like a I

1524
01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:20,400
Speaker 4: think it was the American I don't think it was

1525
01:23:20,439 --> 01:23:22,960
Speaker 4: the Innovator's Hall. It was America Made in America Hall.

1526
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:25,519
Speaker 4: It was like a much larger building with a lot

1527
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:28,240
Speaker 4: more exhibits, and right in the center of it, taking

1528
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:30,439
Speaker 4: up the majority of the real estate, like the largest

1529
01:23:30,479 --> 01:23:35,679
Speaker 4: by far, just portraits after portrait, large oil paint portraits

1530
01:23:35,720 --> 01:23:38,840
Speaker 4: of the American flag, including a cross draped in the

1531
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:42,160
Speaker 4: American flag, because because why not. And the artist whose

1532
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:45,439
Speaker 4: name I guess is Scott Lebido. There's a quote by

1533
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:50,000
Speaker 4: him above his beautiful works of exactly one subject which says,

1534
01:23:50,080 --> 01:23:52,920
Speaker 4: and I quote, I have flirted eye to eye with Mona,

1535
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:57,000
Speaker 4: Lisa and Paris. I have touched the thick, painful brushstrokes

1536
01:23:57,040 --> 01:23:59,960
Speaker 4: of van Go and I gasped in awe at nickel

1537
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:04,519
Speaker 4: angelo Sistine Chapel. Yes, still to this day, my favorite

1538
01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 4: work of art is Dot Dot Dot, the star spangled banner.

1539
01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:12,800
Speaker 2: Oh my god. I'm on this guy's website right now.

1540
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:15,880
Speaker 2: And the first thing on the Scott Lobido website to

1541
01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:19,519
Speaker 2: sign my petition to install a giant permanent flag at

1542
01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:23,280
Speaker 2: ground zero, New York City got one hundred and sixteen

1543
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:25,400
Speaker 2: thousand signatures. Yeah that that really matters.

1544
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:27,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, No, And if there's one thing the ground

1545
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:29,680
Speaker 4: zero needs. It's more American flag in the nine to

1546
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:32,200
Speaker 4: eleven Museum. It's not very American. You would never know

1547
01:24:32,439 --> 01:24:34,360
Speaker 4: going down there about patriotism at all.

1548
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:37,680
Speaker 2: He also has a documentary about him that I think

1549
01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:40,200
Speaker 2: is just an ad streaming on Amazon Prime and Aple TV,

1550
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:42,240
Speaker 2: called The Relentless Patriot.

1551
01:24:44,320 --> 01:24:46,479
Speaker 4: Oh god, relentless is a fair adjective.

1552
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:46,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1553
01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:49,679
Speaker 4: I found the paintings very relentless personally.

1554
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:52,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, his art is incredible stuff here, there's some very

1555
01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 2: for over thirty years, America's artist Scott Lobido in America's

1556
01:24:57,040 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 2: artist Scot Lobido, every first letter in that is capitalized,

1557
01:25:00,160 --> 01:25:04,880
Speaker 2: has respectfully painted thousands of renditions of old glory on schools, homes, firehouses,

1558
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:08,679
Speaker 2: police stations, cars, and canvases. Scott's past is rather colorful. Okay,

1559
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:11,960
Speaker 2: so he's some sort of criminals. Yeah, amazing shit. I

1560
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 2: really want to know that is colorful life prior to

1561
01:25:14,120 --> 01:25:14,559
Speaker 2: this point.

1562
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:16,240
Speaker 5: Oh my god.

1563
01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:18,160
Speaker 4: I like to imagine it with some kind of like

1564
01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:20,040
Speaker 4: petty staff and he's like, you know what would make

1565
01:25:20,120 --> 01:25:22,760
Speaker 4: me way more money? Yeah, it's just aging.

1566
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:26,439
Speaker 2: Fucking crude American flag drawings with Donald Trump in them,

1567
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 2: or a fist in one of his works of home.

1568
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 4: Wow, like like a BLM fist or just a fist.

1569
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:33,680
Speaker 2: No, it's like a fist in a flag and the

1570
01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:36,519
Speaker 2: fist is covered in like paint that's like flag colored.

1571
01:25:37,840 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 4: That makes sense.

1572
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:40,800
Speaker 2: I'm on Facebook here, he's got a video of it.

1573
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:42,640
Speaker 2: Let's wait for this fucking thing to start. But it

1574
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:45,760
Speaker 2: looks like, yeah, he's unveiling a piece of art. I'm

1575
01:25:45,760 --> 01:25:47,479
Speaker 2: trying to click through the unveiling because I don't care

1576
01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:48,920
Speaker 2: what this fucker has to say. But it looks like

1577
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:51,599
Speaker 2: it's just a middle finger. Yeah, it's just a middle finger. Wow.

1578
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:54,320
Speaker 2: And I think that's a four fingered hand. I know

1579
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:56,439
Speaker 2: there's a fifth. There's a fifth. It's just not a

1580
01:25:56,600 --> 01:25:59,240
Speaker 2: very well, it's not like a good like the proportions

1581
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:01,880
Speaker 2: are really bad on this anyway. I'm sorry we're taking

1582
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:03,639
Speaker 2: pitting way too much time on Scott Lebda.

1583
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:07,640
Speaker 4: I mean, I will say, if America had to have

1584
01:26:07,640 --> 01:26:09,920
Speaker 4: an artist right now, a poorly drawn middle finger, you

1585
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:10,760
Speaker 4: can do worst you can.

1586
01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:14,599
Speaker 2: Art's represent porcult middle finger. Yes, oh my god, speaking

1587
01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:18,680
Speaker 2: of poorly sculpted middle fingers, Maybe our advertisers sell that.

1588
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:32,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, that's not my job and I'm bad

1589
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:35,880
Speaker 2: with Laura. Let's continue. What next do you want to

1590
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:38,800
Speaker 2: tell us about the Great American State? Also, it's not

1591
01:26:38,920 --> 01:26:40,600
Speaker 2: a state fair. It's like the Federal it's like the

1592
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:41,639
Speaker 2: National Fair.

1593
01:26:41,840 --> 01:26:44,240
Speaker 4: So yeah, like the states were there, but kind of

1594
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:45,360
Speaker 4: as stars.

1595
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I don't know.

1596
01:26:47,240 --> 01:26:49,600
Speaker 4: I mean, the fair was just it was. It was

1597
01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:52,719
Speaker 4: pretty boring. There was the fairest wheel of the merry

1598
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:54,960
Speaker 4: ground from the World Fair was probably the funnest thing there.

1599
01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:56,600
Speaker 4: That was from you know, a time when America did

1600
01:26:56,720 --> 01:26:59,720
Speaker 4: things well. But you know, it was just kind of

1601
01:26:59,760 --> 01:27:02,200
Speaker 4: a lot of what I've just said. That is, until

1602
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:05,680
Speaker 4: the rain started, and I think that might be a

1603
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:09,160
Speaker 4: decent place to go, because it seemed that despite this

1604
01:27:09,479 --> 01:27:12,320
Speaker 4: having been forecast for about a week, they had made

1605
01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:14,760
Speaker 4: no plans whatsoever. What would happen if it actually did

1606
01:27:15,120 --> 01:27:15,800
Speaker 4: rain at all?

1607
01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:18,599
Speaker 2: Sure if that sounds like the Trump administration, Yeah, yeah,

1608
01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:19,920
Speaker 2: God wouldn't let that happen.

1609
01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:22,360
Speaker 4: Oh God loves America. Why would he let it rain?

1610
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:25,920
Speaker 4: Absolutely not. So at a certain point in the fair,

1611
01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:28,639
Speaker 4: my phone was dying. I had forgotten my charging brick

1612
01:27:28,680 --> 01:27:30,680
Speaker 4: at home, and I decided to charge it at the

1613
01:27:30,720 --> 01:27:32,600
Speaker 4: Department of Justice. Booths since no one was using it.

1614
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:34,559
Speaker 2: So I stuck in there and I, you know, plugged

1615
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:36,400
Speaker 2: in my pay for the Department of Justice. You know,

1616
01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:38,439
Speaker 2: our tax dollars, say for that, damn.

1617
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:40,400
Speaker 4: My tax dollars. Yes, and no one you know, So

1618
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:42,760
Speaker 4: I occupied the Department of Justice, plugged in my phone,

1619
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:45,680
Speaker 4: and about five minutes after that, this announcement starts going

1620
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:47,640
Speaker 4: out over the speakers on Loop for like, you know,

1621
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:49,320
Speaker 4: at least an hour and a half, just you know,

1622
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:52,960
Speaker 4: due to inclement weather, the fair has been quote temporarily postponed.

1623
01:27:53,160 --> 01:27:54,920
Speaker 4: Please make your way to the exits and then we'll

1624
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:57,280
Speaker 4: let you back in when the storm blows over. And

1625
01:27:57,720 --> 01:27:59,479
Speaker 4: you know, I've waited an hour to get in light

1626
01:27:59,560 --> 01:28:01,920
Speaker 4: most people, and it was very hot, and they'd taken

1627
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:03,839
Speaker 4: my nice pen away, and I was kind of salty

1628
01:28:03,840 --> 01:28:05,360
Speaker 4: about that. I didn't want to wait in line again,

1629
01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:07,760
Speaker 4: and I'm like, I have electricity here, I have my

1630
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:10,400
Speaker 4: backup pen. They didn't find I have sour patch kids,

1631
01:28:10,439 --> 01:28:12,519
Speaker 4: and I'm just gonna hang out. So I did that

1632
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:14,519
Speaker 4: for a while until the fair people found me and

1633
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:16,840
Speaker 4: kicked me out. And then when I went outside, I

1634
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:18,720
Speaker 4: found that I was not alone in this logic that

1635
01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:20,559
Speaker 4: a lot of fairgoers were like, well, just get wet

1636
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:23,160
Speaker 4: here instead of getting wet out there, right because they

1637
01:28:23,200 --> 01:28:24,840
Speaker 4: were telling us, you know, we'll go shelter in your

1638
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:27,040
Speaker 4: cars or in the surrounding buildings. And you know, we

1639
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:30,160
Speaker 4: were encouraged not to bring cars because it's Washington, d C.

1640
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:32,400
Speaker 4: And there were a lot of people and there's only

1641
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:35,120
Speaker 4: so much parking, so people didn't have cars. And this

1642
01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:38,880
Speaker 4: is you know, seven pm on a Nationville holiday in

1643
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:41,400
Speaker 4: the middle of DC, so that the buildings mostly weren't

1644
01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:44,639
Speaker 4: open either, so you know, rather than go be wet outside,

1645
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:47,400
Speaker 4: people decided to be wet inside. And this went on

1646
01:28:47,520 --> 01:28:49,720
Speaker 4: for about an hour until the cops showed up and

1647
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:51,720
Speaker 4: in a scene that I think would be recognizable to

1648
01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:54,760
Speaker 4: you as well, a line of cops just kind of

1649
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:58,240
Speaker 4: trundling down the fare and motorcycles. The big difference between

1650
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:00,280
Speaker 4: this and any other protest was at the cops were

1651
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:03,640
Speaker 4: nice and not screaming or deploying tear gas and just

1652
01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:07,759
Speaker 4: kind of herded everyone out, you know, past the throngs

1653
01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:11,559
Speaker 4: of thousands already trying to get back in because there

1654
01:29:11,640 --> 01:29:13,560
Speaker 4: was nowhere else for people to go except for the

1655
01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:16,200
Speaker 4: block traffic for blocks and blocks and blocks, which is

1656
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:22,040
Speaker 4: what they did in the rain. It was yeah, And

1657
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:24,000
Speaker 4: so you've got a crowd of people who are both

1658
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:26,760
Speaker 4: soaking wet and dehydrated, which is a great combination, and

1659
01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:30,000
Speaker 4: people start dropping as people are wont to do, and

1660
01:29:30,200 --> 01:29:33,439
Speaker 4: so ambulances are coming through the crowd constantly. And you

1661
01:29:33,520 --> 01:29:35,439
Speaker 4: know this line that we always hear about protests, how

1662
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:37,280
Speaker 4: they're you know, they're blocking traffic and what if an

1663
01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:40,280
Speaker 4: emergency vehicle needed to come in. Well, that was very

1664
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:43,040
Speaker 4: much in play, but for some reason that was okay

1665
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:45,560
Speaker 4: in this case. They just put on their sirens and

1666
01:29:45,600 --> 01:29:48,880
Speaker 4: went two miles per hour and got through. For what

1667
01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:50,600
Speaker 4: I want to say, about an hour. This was just

1668
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:53,599
Speaker 4: everyone standing around waiting to get back in, getting out

1669
01:29:53,600 --> 01:29:55,320
Speaker 4: of the way for ambulances, everyone getting more and more

1670
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:58,400
Speaker 4: tightly packed until the crowd shreunded into little like freaky

1671
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:01,240
Speaker 4: lurches and shoves. Was that, you know, it's like we're

1672
01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:03,960
Speaker 4: on the verge of stampede here because they've planned this

1673
01:30:04,120 --> 01:30:06,559
Speaker 4: so well that what else was going to happen. They

1674
01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:08,800
Speaker 4: weren't going to go home. It was temporarily postponed, so.

1675
01:30:09,240 --> 01:30:12,479
Speaker 2: Right, you want to come back, Yeah, they said, temporary. Yeah,

1676
01:30:12,680 --> 01:30:14,439
Speaker 2: terrible idea, right, yes, like.

1677
01:30:15,080 --> 01:30:17,599
Speaker 4: Don't go home, hang out here, wait outside the gates

1678
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:20,120
Speaker 4: and get soaking wet, because this is safer than being

1679
01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:22,240
Speaker 4: inside the fare where you could like do things instead

1680
01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:24,240
Speaker 4: of just standing around and being angry.

1681
01:30:24,640 --> 01:30:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's both saying like, we want you to stay

1682
01:30:27,479 --> 01:30:29,840
Speaker 2: out where you will be in danger, but also we

1683
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:31,599
Speaker 2: want to put you into a situation where a lot

1684
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:32,960
Speaker 2: of you have to move at once.

1685
01:30:33,600 --> 01:30:37,360
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and it'll be upset and the security will

1686
01:30:37,360 --> 01:30:38,160
Speaker 4: be overwhelmed.

1687
01:30:38,560 --> 01:30:38,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1688
01:30:39,120 --> 01:30:41,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. It was brilliant, really really brilliant stuff.

1689
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:44,479
Speaker 4: And you know, the storm continued to get worse. It

1690
01:30:44,520 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 4: did not improve. It just got more and more rainy,

1691
01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:50,000
Speaker 4: and people were more and more determined to stay. I

1692
01:30:50,000 --> 01:30:51,639
Speaker 4: mean there was a little bit of attrition, but mostly

1693
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:54,240
Speaker 4: you know, and I fell into a group that was

1694
01:30:54,439 --> 01:30:56,600
Speaker 4: more determined than most. They were, you know, following the

1695
01:30:56,640 --> 01:30:58,880
Speaker 4: ambulances in because the ambulances were making space. It was

1696
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:01,160
Speaker 4: a good way to move up to completely antisocial in

1697
01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:04,240
Speaker 4: this way. Eventually, this group got far enough down the

1698
01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:05,880
Speaker 4: street that it seemed like we were going to make

1699
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:07,680
Speaker 4: it in, and we kept moving a little bit and

1700
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:10,200
Speaker 4: there was the chants of USA. I believe God Bless

1701
01:31:10,280 --> 01:31:14,040
Speaker 4: America was sung at one point, but the progress slowed

1702
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:17,639
Speaker 4: and then it stopped, and then music began to play

1703
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:21,040
Speaker 4: just beyond us inside the fence, and the crowd became

1704
01:31:21,080 --> 01:31:24,479
Speaker 4: a bit more agitated, and God Blessed the USA started playing,

1705
01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:26,519
Speaker 4: and that was a huge catastrophe because you know, that

1706
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:28,640
Speaker 4: means the speech is about to start, and we were

1707
01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:31,240
Speaker 4: going to miss Trump speaking, which was a problem. And

1708
01:31:31,360 --> 01:31:34,120
Speaker 4: then Trump started speaking, and this was the moment that

1709
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,800
Speaker 4: I think that the crowd just completely broke their will

1710
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:41,040
Speaker 4: and spirits broke because the reverberation from the poorly placed

1711
01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:43,479
Speaker 4: speakers were such that you could not understand him. It

1712
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:45,560
Speaker 4: was kind of a nightmare world for me in a

1713
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:48,400
Speaker 4: different way because you could hear Trump's cadence and voice,

1714
01:31:48,800 --> 01:31:50,840
Speaker 4: but not his words. It was just this like psychotic

1715
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:54,160
Speaker 4: babble of nothing just watching over us.

1716
01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:58,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, reading transcripts of it, even, it was just like, honestly,

1717
01:31:58,439 --> 01:32:01,120
Speaker 2: it's like it's like asmrs yeah, right, Like it's just

1718
01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:04,280
Speaker 2: he's He's creating at this point, like a soundscape for

1719
01:32:04,400 --> 01:32:06,519
Speaker 2: them to kind of exist inside for a little while.

1720
01:32:07,120 --> 01:32:09,040
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. And then amplified by the fact that it

1721
01:32:09,120 --> 01:32:11,080
Speaker 4: was coming at us, you know, from several directions out

1722
01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:15,000
Speaker 4: of sync, so truly incomprehensible. Just this weird, trumpy and

1723
01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:18,360
Speaker 4: gibberish watching over this crowd, and the boo that erupted

1724
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 4: when they realized they couldn't hear their leaders speak.

1725
01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:23,840
Speaker 2: It was just primal, like that's funny, it's great.

1726
01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:25,920
Speaker 4: I was having the I mean, I was soaking wet,

1727
01:32:26,160 --> 01:32:27,120
Speaker 4: having the best time.

1728
01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:30,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're all in withdrawal. Yeah, yeah, it's like no,

1729
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:33,080
Speaker 2: and so you know, he.

1730
01:32:33,160 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 4: Speaks for a while and midnight passes and there have

1731
01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:38,599
Speaker 4: been no fireworks. So the fourth of July, the two

1732
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:42,360
Speaker 4: hundred fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, has now

1733
01:32:42,400 --> 01:32:46,160
Speaker 4: passed in DC with zero fireworks whatsoever. But you know,

1734
01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:49,720
Speaker 4: everyone was excited for eight hundred and fifty thousand fireworks

1735
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:51,680
Speaker 4: to go off, which they eventually started to do at

1736
01:32:51,720 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 4: around you know, twelve fifteen, completely obscured by the trees,

1737
01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:58,679
Speaker 4: completely obscured. Yeah, could not see them at all after

1738
01:32:58,760 --> 01:32:59,360
Speaker 4: all that waiting.

1739
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:02,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw your pictures and stuff from it. It's

1740
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:04,840
Speaker 2: like you can in like the top corner above a tree,

1741
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:07,400
Speaker 2: you can see little bits of an explosion peeking out

1742
01:33:07,920 --> 01:33:11,920
Speaker 2: just the worst fireworks show, so frustrating.

1743
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:15,519
Speaker 4: Oh bad, Oh my god. So I'm walking out and

1744
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:18,519
Speaker 4: they're playing Journey. You know, first stop believing, like I

1745
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:20,960
Speaker 4: have stopped believing, and yeah, then bon Jovi's living on

1746
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:22,960
Speaker 4: a prayer. I'm not really living on anything at this point.

1747
01:33:23,200 --> 01:33:24,840
Speaker 4: The smoke is so thick. Even if we could have

1748
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:27,200
Speaker 4: seen it was just an orange glow on the horizon,

1749
01:33:27,280 --> 01:33:29,879
Speaker 4: it's just brackling of bombs.

1750
01:33:30,040 --> 01:33:35,400
Speaker 2: It's just awesome. Well, we will conclude this story and

1751
01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:39,360
Speaker 2: your experience at the Great American State Fair, but first,

1752
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:53,639
Speaker 2: here's one last at break. Okay, so how many times

1753
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:56,800
Speaker 2: I'm curious would you estimate you heard Lee Greenwood's God

1754
01:33:56,840 --> 01:33:59,000
Speaker 2: Bless the USA during your time there?

1755
01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:02,120
Speaker 4: Leave it or not? Just before Trump came out?

1756
01:34:02,240 --> 01:34:03,800
Speaker 6: Just the one, which was good.

1757
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:05,519
Speaker 2: That's not surprised as well.

1758
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:07,479
Speaker 4: I assumed it would be playing NonStop, but I guess

1759
01:34:07,479 --> 01:34:08,599
Speaker 4: that's like Trump's theme saw.

1760
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:12,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they wanted to keep it like for him.

1761
01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:14,320
Speaker 2: It's like a WWF thing, that's like what plays him

1762
01:34:14,360 --> 01:34:15,160
Speaker 2: on stage.

1763
01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:18,840
Speaker 4: Or whatever exactly. Yeah, you know, I feel like this

1764
01:34:18,960 --> 01:34:22,680
Speaker 4: was a small rebellion because there was music playing inside

1765
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:24,760
Speaker 4: of the State Fair. But what you had was like

1766
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:27,800
Speaker 4: Jimmy Buffet's Margaritaville is I'm like staring at the arch

1767
01:34:28,080 --> 01:34:30,000
Speaker 4: just I mean, they played Fortunate Son, which I guess

1768
01:34:30,040 --> 01:34:31,320
Speaker 4: isn't surprising.

1769
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:34,200
Speaker 2: Not surprising, not really proper, but it's not really proper.

1770
01:34:34,640 --> 01:34:37,560
Speaker 4: Katie Perry's Firework played several times because I mean, you know,

1771
01:34:37,760 --> 01:34:40,280
Speaker 4: of course firework fourth of July. So it wasn't really

1772
01:34:40,400 --> 01:34:42,920
Speaker 4: like a big patriotic music fest. It was just kind

1773
01:34:42,960 --> 01:34:46,160
Speaker 4: of like pop music that was barely related and or

1774
01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:46,880
Speaker 4: a little sad.

1775
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:53,519
Speaker 2: It was yeah, yeah, odd, odd, Well anything else about

1776
01:34:53,520 --> 01:34:54,920
Speaker 2: the event at all that you feel like is really

1777
01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:56,920
Speaker 2: worth getting into here at the at the end of

1778
01:34:57,000 --> 01:35:00,559
Speaker 2: our tale, I mean, the the fact.

1779
01:35:00,320 --> 01:35:02,880
Speaker 4: That there isn't I feel like, isn't itself something like there?

1780
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:07,080
Speaker 4: It was so empty, It was such an empty thing. Yeah,

1781
01:35:07,320 --> 01:35:11,439
Speaker 4: everything was so sad, lazy, small and lazy and trashy

1782
01:35:11,600 --> 01:35:12,120
Speaker 4: and cheap.

1783
01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:16,439
Speaker 2: The feeling I kept having was that it all felt

1784
01:35:16,640 --> 01:35:19,960
Speaker 2: AI generated. Yes, even the stuff that like couldn't have been,

1785
01:35:20,120 --> 01:35:23,080
Speaker 2: Like the arch looked like an AI generated image just

1786
01:35:23,120 --> 01:35:24,880
Speaker 2: stuck in the real world and like a lot of

1787
01:35:24,920 --> 01:35:26,439
Speaker 2: the booths. I mean, there was a lot of AI

1788
01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:29,120
Speaker 2: art there, but it just yea, all of your pictures.

1789
01:35:29,120 --> 01:35:31,360
Speaker 2: I kept thinking of It's like my friend is trapped

1790
01:35:31,439 --> 01:35:36,000
Speaker 2: in like an AI generated version of reality. That's really lazy.

1791
01:35:36,400 --> 01:35:38,160
Speaker 4: It's exactly like it. That is such a good way

1792
01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:39,840
Speaker 4: to put it. It really did. It was just like

1793
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:42,519
Speaker 4: the ethos of AI infused this place. Like yeah, it's

1794
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:46,160
Speaker 4: kind of like if you described I mean, I feel

1795
01:35:46,200 --> 01:35:47,800
Speaker 4: like I'm very everything to the back rooms right now

1796
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:49,800
Speaker 4: because I just watched it, not a little obsessed, but like.

1797
01:35:51,280 --> 01:35:53,960
Speaker 2: A lot of back rooms vibes this person watching the

1798
01:35:54,040 --> 01:35:54,840
Speaker 2: back rooms.

1799
01:35:54,800 --> 01:35:57,680
Speaker 4: Yea, and yet I mean it really was like if

1800
01:35:57,720 --> 01:35:59,920
Speaker 4: something described what a building was and then someone who

1801
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:02,400
Speaker 4: never seen one before was like, oh like this right,

1802
01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:06,000
Speaker 4: like yeah, sure like that. Yeah, yeah, just no, it

1803
01:36:06,160 --> 01:36:08,519
Speaker 4: was so soulless. I mean, you know, whether or not

1804
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:10,640
Speaker 4: you care for America, I personally, you know, like my

1805
01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:12,840
Speaker 4: country's got a lot of problems. I would like a

1806
01:36:12,880 --> 01:36:14,479
Speaker 4: lot of them to be better, but you know, I

1807
01:36:14,600 --> 01:36:17,120
Speaker 4: live here, I'd like it to be nice. And it

1808
01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:20,800
Speaker 4: was just kind of embarrassing. It was sad that this

1809
01:36:21,479 --> 01:36:23,400
Speaker 4: is really what we are right now. We are just yeah,

1810
01:36:23,439 --> 01:36:29,120
Speaker 4: this like soulless AI esque phoned in sad part is

1811
01:36:29,360 --> 01:36:31,040
Speaker 4: like that even part is not even the right word,

1812
01:36:31,200 --> 01:36:33,839
Speaker 4: like radically far right bullshit.

1813
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:40,400
Speaker 2: Yeah it's gross, yeah yeah gross. Yeah, it's like funny

1814
01:36:40,720 --> 01:36:43,839
Speaker 2: in a cosmic sense, but mostly depressing to be honest.

1815
01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:47,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed my time there because I enjoyed

1816
01:36:47,320 --> 01:36:49,800
Speaker 4: depressing horrible things. But I can't I can't say that,

1817
01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:51,320
Speaker 4: like if I was giving a Yelp preview.

1818
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:54,360
Speaker 2: It feels right in this era of America to be

1819
01:36:54,520 --> 01:36:55,920
Speaker 2: like depressed and disappointed.

1820
01:36:56,640 --> 01:36:59,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, like the people. And I caught myself doing

1821
01:36:59,320 --> 01:37:01,000
Speaker 4: this too, like this, this is a a representation of

1822
01:37:01,040 --> 01:37:01,360
Speaker 4: who we are?

1823
01:37:01,439 --> 01:37:01,880
Speaker 6: Like, yes it is.

1824
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:05,280
Speaker 2: No, this is a pretty good Yeah, this is exactly

1825
01:37:05,360 --> 01:37:07,400
Speaker 2: who we are the more or less.

1826
01:37:10,520 --> 01:37:12,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, four point five stars nailed it.

1827
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:14,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. I say that a lot like whenever someone's like,

1828
01:37:14,360 --> 01:37:16,040
Speaker 2: this isn't who we are? Isn't it.

1829
01:37:18,680 --> 01:37:18,840
Speaker 6: Us?

1830
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:22,040
Speaker 4: I am, and this feels like us to me.

1831
01:37:25,400 --> 01:37:25,599
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1832
01:37:26,920 --> 01:37:29,720
Speaker 2: Periodically, during like the riots in twenty twenty, I'd post

1833
01:37:29,760 --> 01:37:31,439
Speaker 2: some footage and one of the comments would be like,

1834
01:37:31,560 --> 01:37:33,600
Speaker 2: this isn't the America I grew up And it's like,

1835
01:37:33,640 --> 01:37:34,760
Speaker 2: I'm know when I grew up in.

1836
01:37:38,800 --> 01:37:40,200
Speaker 4: I mean, it wasn't the one I grew up in,

1837
01:37:40,240 --> 01:37:42,760
Speaker 4: but that's because I lived in areas where the police works.

1838
01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:45,439
Speaker 4: So yeah, it was always there. I just wasn't visiting it,

1839
01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:45,680
Speaker 4: you know.

1840
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:50,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well Laura, anything else pluggables to plug

1841
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:51,400
Speaker 2: at the end here.

1842
01:37:51,479 --> 01:37:53,200
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, well you can. You can check out. I've

1843
01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:56,559
Speaker 4: got a newsletter at firewalledmedia dot com. I am Laura

1844
01:37:56,640 --> 01:37:59,439
Speaker 4: Jdeed on basically every social media platform, mostly active on

1845
01:37:59,520 --> 01:38:01,559
Speaker 4: Blue Sky now, but theoretically on all of the other

1846
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:03,479
Speaker 4: ones as well. And yeah, come come check me out.

1847
01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:05,160
Speaker 4: I am the only Orige Deed in the world, so

1848
01:38:05,240 --> 01:38:06,160
Speaker 4: I'm very easy to find.

1849
01:38:06,560 --> 01:38:09,880
Speaker 2: Excellent. All right, Well, thank you Laura, and thank you

1850
01:38:09,960 --> 01:38:13,280
Speaker 2: all for listening. We'll be back at some point in

1851
01:38:13,360 --> 01:38:15,960
Speaker 2: the future. Well, actually, dumon, you know how this works.

1852
01:38:30,000 --> 01:38:36,040
Speaker 8: This is happening, This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder.

1853
01:38:36,200 --> 01:38:38,880
Speaker 8: That's right, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the

1854
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:41,600
Speaker 8: White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you.

1855
01:38:42,040 --> 01:38:45,599
Speaker 8: I'm Garrison Davis Dame, joined by Mia Wong and Robert Evans.

1856
01:38:46,400 --> 01:38:48,880
Speaker 8: This episode, we're covering the week of July first to

1857
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:54,479
Speaker 8: July eighth, or some small things. Last week, Ben Gavier,

1858
01:38:54,720 --> 01:38:58,519
Speaker 8: the Israeli National Security minister canceled an upcoming trip to

1859
01:38:58,600 --> 01:39:02,519
Speaker 8: New York City for the UN Police Summit amidst calls

1860
01:39:02,560 --> 01:39:05,000
Speaker 8: for him to be arrested for war crimes.

1861
01:39:07,000 --> 01:39:08,960
Speaker 2: That's good, that's good to see. It's nice to see

1862
01:39:09,000 --> 01:39:11,720
Speaker 2: that he's feel scared even a little, you know.

1863
01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:16,439
Speaker 8: Yes, yeah, the planned protest outside of the UN took place,

1864
01:39:16,720 --> 01:39:19,120
Speaker 8: even though Ben Gavier did not travel to the city.

1865
01:39:20,160 --> 01:39:23,439
Speaker 8: No one really knows if Mitch McConnell is actually still alive,

1866
01:39:23,920 --> 01:39:27,639
Speaker 8: as he remains hospitalized after being omitted in mid June

1867
01:39:28,280 --> 01:39:33,240
Speaker 8: for suffering cardiac arrest. On Tuesday, a bunch of Republicans

1868
01:39:33,280 --> 01:39:38,080
Speaker 8: senators said that they for sure talked to him multiple

1869
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:39,880
Speaker 8: mites about all his favorite topics.

1870
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:43,559
Speaker 2: Definitely not AI generated images and shit.

1871
01:39:43,800 --> 01:39:44,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1872
01:39:44,160 --> 01:39:44,360
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1873
01:39:44,800 --> 01:39:48,679
Speaker 8: There's really no clear indication on what his current mental

1874
01:39:48,800 --> 01:39:52,840
Speaker 8: state is. Laura Lumer has said that he's effectively braindead.

1875
01:39:53,040 --> 01:39:57,719
Speaker 8: Not a reliable source either at all, but the audio

1876
01:39:58,080 --> 01:40:01,040
Speaker 8: from the nine to one to one call yeah, indicates

1877
01:40:01,040 --> 01:40:03,120
Speaker 8: there was CPR being performed.

1878
01:40:03,160 --> 01:40:06,680
Speaker 2: So based purely on that, what Lumour says is very

1879
01:40:06,840 --> 01:40:10,280
Speaker 2: likely because when people at McConnell's age need CPR and

1880
01:40:10,520 --> 01:40:13,600
Speaker 2: are like at the time at which EMS arrives. This

1881
01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:17,599
Speaker 2: is not an uncommon result, like what Lumur suggested.

1882
01:40:17,760 --> 01:40:21,519
Speaker 8: Yeah, we could see a historic weekend at Bernie's even

1883
01:40:21,560 --> 01:40:24,560
Speaker 8: in American politics. Yeah, if Republicans want to hold on

1884
01:40:24,720 --> 01:40:28,440
Speaker 8: to this Senate seat without doing a special election.

1885
01:40:28,560 --> 01:40:31,080
Speaker 2: Honestly, it'd be the best way to honor his memory. Like,

1886
01:40:31,160 --> 01:40:34,559
Speaker 2: that's the appropriate way to honor Mitch McConnell's memory. One

1887
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:38,759
Speaker 2: last filibuster, kind of breaking the law one last time

1888
01:40:39,000 --> 01:40:41,080
Speaker 2: to stack things in the gfp's deck.

1889
01:40:42,320 --> 01:40:44,280
Speaker 9: I also want to note the friend of the show,

1890
01:40:45,120 --> 01:40:49,599
Speaker 9: Myra Lazine from trans News Network, did request comment about

1891
01:40:49,720 --> 01:40:52,960
Speaker 9: the status of McConnell from his office and has not

1892
01:40:53,080 --> 01:40:53,880
Speaker 9: received a reply.

1893
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:56,640
Speaker 6: We will let you know if if we.

1894
01:40:56,720 --> 01:41:00,240
Speaker 9: Get any kind of confirmation from their press steal he

1895
01:41:00,400 --> 01:41:01,280
Speaker 9: is in fact alive.

1896
01:41:02,240 --> 01:41:05,200
Speaker 8: And our colleague James Stout, who will have a special

1897
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:09,120
Speaker 8: segment later on this episode, also wanted us to note

1898
01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:12,599
Speaker 8: that San Diego has begun defunding and closing more than

1899
01:41:12,720 --> 01:41:14,360
Speaker 8: thirty public toilets today.

1900
01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:16,519
Speaker 6: Cool to that.

1901
01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:21,479
Speaker 8: I will add, in a not humble brag fashion, that Mom,

1902
01:41:21,600 --> 01:41:24,360
Speaker 8: Donnie and the MTA announced a new plan to expand

1903
01:41:24,560 --> 01:41:29,680
Speaker 8: bus routes great the same day anyway, you can have

1904
01:41:29,800 --> 01:41:33,920
Speaker 8: either world people, but not if you live in California. Actually,

1905
01:41:34,360 --> 01:41:37,720
Speaker 8: no toilets or slightly faster buses. The two choices of

1906
01:41:37,760 --> 01:41:42,160
Speaker 8: American politics, Yeah, the two choices that are presented to voters.

1907
01:41:42,520 --> 01:41:46,479
Speaker 9: Well, okay, I'm going to present a third choice, which

1908
01:41:46,520 --> 01:41:48,519
Speaker 9: is I do want to talk briefly about something that's

1909
01:41:48,520 --> 01:41:51,400
Speaker 9: happening in France right now. There is an attempt that

1910
01:41:51,520 --> 01:41:53,599
Speaker 9: has passed the Lower House and is pending a vote

1911
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:56,320
Speaker 9: from the Upper House as we speak, to pass a

1912
01:41:56,800 --> 01:42:00,040
Speaker 9: police immunity law. I don't know what exactly the the

1913
01:42:00,160 --> 01:42:01,840
Speaker 9: term to describe it is, but it is a law

1914
01:42:02,000 --> 01:42:07,599
Speaker 9: that would automatically treat any police killing as justified until

1915
01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:12,640
Speaker 9: proven otherwise. This is obviously an extremely dangerous bill. It

1916
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:15,559
Speaker 9: effectively allows the police to, as long as there are

1917
01:42:15,640 --> 01:42:19,839
Speaker 9: no witnesses, kill someone and not be investigated or removed

1918
01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:23,760
Speaker 9: for it. So that is still technically making its way

1919
01:42:23,840 --> 01:42:27,840
Speaker 9: through the French Parliament, but very much looks like it

1920
01:42:27,880 --> 01:42:32,719
Speaker 9: could pass. It is extremely bleak cool. Yeah, just obviously

1921
01:42:32,800 --> 01:42:34,360
Speaker 9: this is a bill backed by the French far right

1922
01:42:34,400 --> 01:42:37,080
Speaker 9: that's also being backed by a bunch of the French

1923
01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:41,519
Speaker 9: quote unquote center right, and yeah, quite bad.

1924
01:42:42,560 --> 01:42:47,479
Speaker 8: Speaking of bad, let's get on to our first main

1925
01:42:47,600 --> 01:42:50,680
Speaker 8: story this week. As many of you know, there's been

1926
01:42:50,720 --> 01:42:54,360
Speaker 8: a major update in the main Senate race. On Monday,

1927
01:42:54,400 --> 01:42:57,879
Speaker 8: a woman named Jenny Rassico came forward with an allegation

1928
01:42:58,040 --> 01:43:02,879
Speaker 8: that Graham Platner raped her into one. Rascoe told Politico

1929
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:05,360
Speaker 8: and CNN that she and Plattner had been seeing each

1930
01:43:05,400 --> 01:43:07,920
Speaker 8: other on and off for about two years, and then

1931
01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:10,639
Speaker 8: one night in twenty twenty one, Platner entered her home

1932
01:43:10,720 --> 01:43:14,400
Speaker 8: quote unquote heavily intoxicated, despite Rassico explicitly telling him not

1933
01:43:14,520 --> 01:43:18,120
Speaker 8: to come over. Once inside, Platner forced himself on her

1934
01:43:18,200 --> 01:43:21,120
Speaker 8: while she resisted and repeatedly told him to stop, and

1935
01:43:21,240 --> 01:43:25,240
Speaker 8: then he raped her. Rascoe told Politico that Platta did

1936
01:43:25,280 --> 01:43:27,840
Speaker 8: not remember what he did the next morning, but shortly

1937
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:30,680
Speaker 8: thereafter she caught off contact with him after telling him

1938
01:43:31,000 --> 01:43:33,320
Speaker 8: what happened that night was not consensual.

1939
01:43:34,080 --> 01:43:37,960
Speaker 2: Yep, I guess this is what it took. Unfortunately, and like,

1940
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:42,120
Speaker 2: I'm sorry this lady had to come forward and say this. Yeah,

1941
01:43:42,479 --> 01:43:46,439
Speaker 2: but you know, it does look like this has done

1942
01:43:46,560 --> 01:43:50,840
Speaker 2: the job finally of ending this guy's career. I mean,

1943
01:43:50,880 --> 01:43:54,040
Speaker 2: I guess we'll see anything could happen still, but I

1944
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:55,240
Speaker 2: don't know what else to say.

1945
01:43:56,160 --> 01:44:01,719
Speaker 8: Her specific allegation is heavily corroborated in the reporting. Politico

1946
01:44:01,960 --> 01:44:05,800
Speaker 8: interviewed the woman's next boyfriend, who in twenty twenty three

1947
01:44:05,960 --> 01:44:09,960
Speaker 8: she told him about what happened with Platner, and also

1948
01:44:10,000 --> 01:44:14,160
Speaker 8: reviewed emails to a therapist discussing the sexual assault. Politico

1949
01:44:14,280 --> 01:44:17,719
Speaker 8: published some private Facebook messages between Rascoe and a friend

1950
01:44:17,760 --> 01:44:20,639
Speaker 8: of hers, whom she warned against getting involved with Platner.

1951
01:44:21,240 --> 01:44:25,360
Speaker 8: And that was years before he ran for office. I'll

1952
01:44:25,400 --> 01:44:27,000
Speaker 8: read some of those texts here.

1953
01:44:27,200 --> 01:44:27,479
Speaker 6: Quote.

1954
01:44:27,760 --> 01:44:30,120
Speaker 8: He can be charming and funny, and he's a decently

1955
01:44:30,200 --> 01:44:33,519
Speaker 8: intelligent person. He's not all bad, but I ended up

1956
01:44:33,560 --> 01:44:35,840
Speaker 8: in a bad situation with him, and I will just

1957
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:40,880
Speaker 8: very politely call him consensually careless at times. She followed

1958
01:44:40,960 --> 01:44:45,719
Speaker 8: up by writing, when drunk plus PTSD, he lies also

1959
01:44:46,360 --> 01:44:48,839
Speaker 8: doesn't listen to you when drunk, unquote.

1960
01:44:49,439 --> 01:44:52,920
Speaker 2: And it's still remarkable, honestly, how much slack she was

1961
01:44:53,040 --> 01:44:58,680
Speaker 2: trying to cut him in that message, like unnecessarily empathetic

1962
01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:01,280
Speaker 2: way of expressing that to someone else about a person

1963
01:45:01,280 --> 01:45:03,240
Speaker 2: who had done that to you. Yeah, I don't know,

1964
01:45:03,320 --> 01:45:04,439
Speaker 2: that's what struck me about that.

1965
01:45:05,080 --> 01:45:08,040
Speaker 8: One of the most devastating parts of this is that

1966
01:45:08,479 --> 01:45:14,120
Speaker 8: Rasico told Politico that she previously withheld this accusation because

1967
01:45:14,320 --> 01:45:16,879
Speaker 8: she agrees with Plattner's political platform.

1968
01:45:17,479 --> 01:45:17,799
Speaker 9: Quote.

1969
01:45:18,240 --> 01:45:20,160
Speaker 8: One of the reasons I didn't come forward sooner was

1970
01:45:20,439 --> 01:45:23,400
Speaker 8: the huge moral conflict that I had between supporting his

1971
01:45:23,560 --> 01:45:27,280
Speaker 8: politics but not supporting him as a person. I just

1972
01:45:27,360 --> 01:45:29,040
Speaker 8: want the truth out there. I just want people to

1973
01:45:29,120 --> 01:45:32,120
Speaker 8: have a whole scope of who he is as a person.

1974
01:45:32,439 --> 01:45:32,879
Speaker 6: Unquote.

1975
01:45:33,360 --> 01:45:33,559
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1976
01:45:34,400 --> 01:45:37,800
Speaker 8: After Resco made this allegation, which is Platner's first public

1977
01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:43,520
Speaker 8: allegation of rape or sexual assault, Lindsay Feifeld, the Republican

1978
01:45:43,600 --> 01:45:46,479
Speaker 8: operative who was at the center of the New York

1979
01:45:46,520 --> 01:45:51,080
Speaker 8: Times report on Platner last month, told The Washington Post

1980
01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:57,120
Speaker 8: that Platinner sneakily removed condoms during sex Jesus, which is

1981
01:45:57,439 --> 01:45:59,200
Speaker 8: also a form of sexual assault.

1982
01:45:59,600 --> 01:45:59,800
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1983
01:46:00,720 --> 01:46:04,200
Speaker 8: In a video released on Monday, Platner denied the allegations

1984
01:46:04,280 --> 01:46:07,280
Speaker 8: and said quote, we are taking time to reflect on

1985
01:46:07,439 --> 01:46:12,679
Speaker 8: the best path forward. Following the allegation, Platner lost high

1986
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:18,320
Speaker 8: profile endorsements many of his volunteers, and support from community organizations.

1987
01:46:19,280 --> 01:46:23,240
Speaker 8: The thirty thousand member actives organization Made People's Alliance, whom

1988
01:46:23,320 --> 01:46:26,400
Speaker 8: Platner was a member of, withdrew their endorsement and told

1989
01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:29,680
Speaker 8: him to step down. The Democrat nominee for governor had

1990
01:46:29,720 --> 01:46:33,439
Speaker 8: a Pinigree, who Platners supported as a rank choice candidate,

1991
01:46:33,640 --> 01:46:35,960
Speaker 8: released a statement calling for him to drop out of

1992
01:46:36,000 --> 01:46:39,839
Speaker 8: the race. Quote for Maine, for the future of control

1993
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:42,320
Speaker 8: of the US Senate, and because no party should stand

1994
01:46:42,360 --> 01:46:45,639
Speaker 8: behind a candidate facing allegations of assault, grand Platner should

1995
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:48,880
Speaker 8: exit the race immediately. Democrats need a nominee who can

1996
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:52,080
Speaker 8: beat Susan Collins in November. Grand Platner is no longer

1997
01:46:52,200 --> 01:46:56,120
Speaker 8: that candidate. Grand Platner tapped into something real voters hungry

1998
01:46:56,200 --> 01:47:00,040
Speaker 8: for change, showed up with real passion and energy. That

1999
01:47:00,320 --> 01:47:03,479
Speaker 8: energy doesn't have to go away. It needs a new

2000
01:47:03,600 --> 01:47:08,360
Speaker 8: candidate to carry it forward. That last little section by

2001
01:47:08,720 --> 01:47:10,719
Speaker 8: Hannah is part of what I was trying to express

2002
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:14,600
Speaker 8: in my recent peace outlining the campaign's platform and on

2003
01:47:14,760 --> 01:47:18,799
Speaker 8: the ground strategy, and I think looking back at his campaign,

2004
01:47:19,000 --> 01:47:22,360
Speaker 8: it really is worth trying to understand why it worked

2005
01:47:22,439 --> 01:47:25,920
Speaker 8: as well as it did up to this point. Up

2006
01:47:25,960 --> 01:47:29,360
Speaker 8: to this allegation, this election has highlighted that there can

2007
01:47:29,439 --> 01:47:32,519
Speaker 8: be a considerable gap in the way certain candidates are

2008
01:47:32,560 --> 01:47:35,439
Speaker 8: talked about online and how they are viewed by the

2009
01:47:35,640 --> 01:47:39,600
Speaker 8: local organizations or the local electorate. Now, at least the

2010
01:47:39,760 --> 01:47:43,360
Speaker 8: organizations are breaking with Platner. We don't have a great

2011
01:47:43,680 --> 01:47:48,320
Speaker 8: idea yet of how voters see him post these allegations,

2012
01:47:49,040 --> 01:47:52,120
Speaker 8: but there was a series of focus groups that The

2013
01:47:52,160 --> 01:47:57,160
Speaker 8: Bulwark ran in June with a group of main women

2014
01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:01,400
Speaker 8: who supported Platner but said that they would draw the

2015
01:48:01,520 --> 01:48:05,479
Speaker 8: line at an allegation of sexual assault. So my last

2016
01:48:05,640 --> 01:48:08,960
Speaker 8: episode was focusing on trying to explain how he won

2017
01:48:09,000 --> 01:48:12,679
Speaker 8: the primary and how his relationships with unions and local

2018
01:48:12,760 --> 01:48:15,880
Speaker 8: activistcripts contributed to that campaign success. And there is a

2019
01:48:15,920 --> 01:48:19,759
Speaker 8: reason that I waited until after the primary to discuss

2020
01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:23,080
Speaker 8: that platform in detail. And we had done some piecemeal

2021
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:26,960
Speaker 8: reporting on some of his other scandals, but the information

2022
01:48:27,040 --> 01:48:29,280
Speaker 8: circulated on Blue Sky right Now about Daniel Morov, who

2023
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:32,240
Speaker 8: was mentioned in the piece was not as publicly accessible

2024
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:34,840
Speaker 8: when that episode was written, and I think a piece

2025
01:48:35,160 --> 01:48:38,479
Speaker 8: fully evaluating or relitigating all the personal issues with Platner

2026
01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:40,960
Speaker 8: or some of his staff would have needed to be

2027
01:48:41,040 --> 01:48:43,200
Speaker 8: a separate episode which is why that piece starts off

2028
01:48:43,240 --> 01:48:47,599
Speaker 8: with mentioning all of the main scandals before narrowing its

2029
01:48:47,720 --> 01:48:51,519
Speaker 8: focus on why he won the nomination and focusing on

2030
01:48:51,760 --> 01:48:54,679
Speaker 8: why he won the nomination so handily, like over fifty

2031
01:48:54,760 --> 01:48:58,000
Speaker 8: points against a Democrat establishing candidate. I think it's really

2032
01:48:58,040 --> 01:49:01,080
Speaker 8: important to understand what's happening in American politics right now.

2033
01:49:01,200 --> 01:49:05,559
Speaker 8: Right Yeah, Platner got the most votes in state primary history.

2034
01:49:06,200 --> 01:49:09,160
Speaker 8: He did eighty three town halls, a master over fifteen

2035
01:49:09,240 --> 01:49:15,240
Speaker 8: thousand volunteers, and a semiotic analysis of Platner as a

2036
01:49:15,439 --> 01:49:21,200
Speaker 8: person doesn't tell us how his campaign attracted such historic

2037
01:49:21,280 --> 01:49:25,120
Speaker 8: support in Maine. Right, politics isn't just about vibes and

2038
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:29,720
Speaker 8: symbols or even individual character, but rather structural forces, And

2039
01:49:30,040 --> 01:49:33,400
Speaker 8: there is a distinctness at the root of politics between

2040
01:49:33,920 --> 01:49:39,519
Speaker 8: symbols and like the real forces of society. Those forces

2041
01:49:39,640 --> 01:49:43,200
Speaker 8: can be esthetically flexible and adapt a lot of different symbols.

2042
01:49:43,800 --> 01:49:47,439
Speaker 8: For every grand Platner right a bad guy who represented

2043
01:49:47,479 --> 01:49:50,720
Speaker 8: good politics in Maine, there are many more people who

2044
01:49:50,760 --> 01:49:54,840
Speaker 8: represent very bad politics who dress themselves up in a

2045
01:49:54,960 --> 01:49:56,840
Speaker 8: spotless like moral symbology.

2046
01:49:57,439 --> 01:49:58,040
Speaker 6: Look at right now.

2047
01:49:58,280 --> 01:50:02,040
Speaker 8: There's a lot of Democratic like party figures who are

2048
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:05,680
Speaker 8: taking a lap people who have supported Andrew Cuomo and

2049
01:50:05,960 --> 01:50:09,680
Speaker 8: the Clintons who are saying, like, aha, I told you so,

2050
01:50:09,960 --> 01:50:12,479
Speaker 8: who couldn't have seen this coming? And like that that's

2051
01:50:12,680 --> 01:50:15,360
Speaker 8: grossed on its face because of the types of behavior

2052
01:50:15,439 --> 01:50:19,519
Speaker 8: they are very clearly okay with excusing to put forward

2053
01:50:19,640 --> 01:50:22,240
Speaker 8: their candidates. But also I think this this this reaction

2054
01:50:22,360 --> 01:50:24,040
Speaker 8: of like, who couldn't see this coming? Right, there's all

2055
01:50:24,080 --> 01:50:27,519
Speaker 8: these red flags. This also like fails to like understand

2056
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:31,280
Speaker 8: how we got to this point, Like Platter wasn't chosen

2057
01:50:31,320 --> 01:50:34,640
Speaker 8: to be the nominee by online leftists, but rather the

2058
01:50:34,800 --> 01:50:39,120
Speaker 8: people have made But there are contributing factors that led

2059
01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:43,160
Speaker 8: us to a very very precarious situation, including the lack

2060
01:50:43,200 --> 01:50:45,960
Speaker 8: of serious vetting by some of the consultants working on

2061
01:50:46,000 --> 01:50:49,200
Speaker 8: this campaign, oh as well as Chuck Schumer is clearing

2062
01:50:49,439 --> 01:50:53,240
Speaker 8: the field of other Democratic candidates, which helped create this

2063
01:50:53,360 --> 01:50:57,720
Speaker 8: effectively one on one Mills v. Platinir matchup, while other

2064
01:50:58,240 --> 01:51:01,559
Speaker 8: qualified candidates were pushed into the governor's race. And now

2065
01:51:01,720 --> 01:51:04,200
Speaker 8: some of those people might be going after the Senate

2066
01:51:04,240 --> 01:51:08,519
Speaker 8: nomination following the assumed dropout of Platner.

2067
01:51:08,560 --> 01:51:09,839
Speaker 6: In these next few days.

2068
01:51:10,240 --> 01:51:12,479
Speaker 2: We do have to wonder and by the time people

2069
01:51:12,520 --> 01:51:14,680
Speaker 2: listen to this, there's a good chance. I guess this

2070
01:51:15,080 --> 01:51:18,400
Speaker 2: won't matter. But like, what if he decides to just

2071
01:51:18,479 --> 01:51:21,360
Speaker 2: fuck the party right? Like what if they don't sort

2072
01:51:21,400 --> 01:51:24,240
Speaker 2: all this out? It's not an impossible situation from where

2073
01:51:24,280 --> 01:51:26,360
Speaker 2: we're sitting right now. I don't think it's the likeliest,

2074
01:51:26,439 --> 01:51:28,320
Speaker 2: but it's not impossible. From where we are right now.

2075
01:51:28,960 --> 01:51:30,760
Speaker 8: It's not impossible, and that it is an interesting kind

2076
01:51:30,760 --> 01:51:34,280
Speaker 8: of thing to think about. Yeah, consultants like Morse Cats

2077
01:51:34,360 --> 01:51:36,360
Speaker 8: are urging him to drop out, and there is a

2078
01:51:36,439 --> 01:51:39,559
Speaker 8: lot of reports coming out that are suggesting that he will.

2079
01:51:40,360 --> 01:51:43,240
Speaker 8: And to this point, a Platner has been a very

2080
01:51:43,280 --> 01:51:48,640
Speaker 8: effective conveyor of a working class centric platform, and his

2081
01:51:48,960 --> 01:51:53,639
Speaker 8: resilience as a candidate through his other well publicized personal issues,

2082
01:51:54,120 --> 01:51:57,920
Speaker 8: have proven a real hunger for a new kind of politics.

2083
01:51:58,760 --> 01:52:02,880
Speaker 8: But by making himself the avatar of that movement in Maine,

2084
01:52:03,320 --> 01:52:07,320
Speaker 8: he has also severely compromised the movement. There's a lot

2085
01:52:07,360 --> 01:52:11,960
Speaker 8: of people who supported his campaign despite his past, based

2086
01:52:12,000 --> 01:52:15,560
Speaker 8: on this idea that those past experiences led him to

2087
01:52:15,760 --> 01:52:19,360
Speaker 8: this working class politics. His campaign was predicated on that

2088
01:52:19,439 --> 01:52:21,799
Speaker 8: he was not the same person who made those awful

2089
01:52:21,840 --> 01:52:24,360
Speaker 8: Reddit posts a decade ago, but the details in the

2090
01:52:24,360 --> 01:52:28,200
Speaker 8: recency of this right allegation suggests that is not really

2091
01:52:28,280 --> 01:52:32,360
Speaker 8: the case. This allegation affirms a larger pattern of behavior

2092
01:52:32,439 --> 01:52:36,719
Speaker 8: which is itself disqualifying and illuminates false and misleading statements

2093
01:52:36,800 --> 01:52:43,000
Speaker 8: Platner has made to supporters, which further undermined his integrity, reliability,

2094
01:52:43,040 --> 01:52:45,720
Speaker 8: and the trust necessary for an electorate, for unions and

2095
01:52:45,800 --> 01:52:48,400
Speaker 8: community organizations to put forward a candidate with faith that

2096
01:52:48,479 --> 01:52:51,320
Speaker 8: he will follow through on the working class platform that

2097
01:52:51,720 --> 01:52:56,000
Speaker 8: he adopted. This redemption story that the campaign ran with

2098
01:52:56,640 --> 01:53:00,559
Speaker 8: attracted a lot of supporters, supporters who Platum are assured

2099
01:53:00,960 --> 01:53:04,280
Speaker 8: that no new damaging allegations would be coming out against him.

2100
01:53:04,520 --> 01:53:07,880
Speaker 8: Then this not only betrays the trust of those supporters

2101
01:53:07,920 --> 01:53:10,720
Speaker 8: and its volunteers, but it also puts the viability of

2102
01:53:10,800 --> 01:53:14,280
Speaker 8: their shared working class politics at risk based on their

2103
01:53:14,320 --> 01:53:19,960
Speaker 8: association with him and especially this new accusation of rape.

2104
01:53:20,680 --> 01:53:23,200
Speaker 9: I think there's two things that are sort of important

2105
01:53:23,240 --> 01:53:27,680
Speaker 9: to keep in mind when thinking about this. One is

2106
01:53:27,840 --> 01:53:31,920
Speaker 9: that it's quite common for someone who is a rapist

2107
01:53:32,000 --> 01:53:35,080
Speaker 9: to also be extremely charismatic, to be a good communicator,

2108
01:53:35,120 --> 01:53:39,400
Speaker 9: to be very skilled at manipulating social situations, and that

2109
01:53:40,080 --> 01:53:42,559
Speaker 9: none of the things that they can be good at

2110
01:53:43,240 --> 01:53:45,799
Speaker 9: like make it okay for them to be a rapist.

2111
01:53:45,880 --> 01:53:48,599
Speaker 9: But also that's how a lot of the people who

2112
01:53:49,240 --> 01:53:51,960
Speaker 9: are able to do these kinds of things are able

2113
01:53:52,120 --> 01:53:55,120
Speaker 9: to maintain themselves and are able to survive. That's how

2114
01:53:55,120 --> 01:53:57,800
Speaker 9: a lot of politicians you get into this place are

2115
01:53:57,840 --> 01:54:00,560
Speaker 9: able to just you know, survived by the fact that

2116
01:54:00,600 --> 01:54:03,800
Speaker 9: they have credible rate allegations, Like we should mention, you know,

2117
01:54:03,880 --> 01:54:06,479
Speaker 9: for example, that there are significant credible rate allegations against

2118
01:54:06,479 --> 01:54:08,720
Speaker 9: the President of the United States, a thing that has

2119
01:54:08,760 --> 01:54:10,320
Speaker 9: not stopped him from being elected twice.

2120
01:54:10,479 --> 01:54:14,360
Speaker 2: A conviction not just deleegation, it's a conviction found.

2121
01:54:14,240 --> 01:54:15,400
Speaker 8: Liable in civil court.

2122
01:54:15,760 --> 01:54:18,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, multiple allegations, right, like you know, and then I

2123
01:54:18,800 --> 01:54:21,599
Speaker 9: think the second issue here, right, and this is something

2124
01:54:21,640 --> 01:54:23,880
Speaker 9: you were mentioning when you're talking about like the problem

2125
01:54:23,920 --> 01:54:25,920
Speaker 9: with him making himself the avatar of this sort of

2126
01:54:26,040 --> 01:54:29,120
Speaker 9: like movement of structural forces is that this is just

2127
01:54:29,200 --> 01:54:31,040
Speaker 9: to some extent, one of the risks and one of

2128
01:54:31,200 --> 01:54:34,040
Speaker 9: the challenges you face when you're attempting to run a

2129
01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:36,840
Speaker 9: working class movement that is centered around a charismatic figure.

2130
01:54:37,440 --> 01:54:40,360
Speaker 9: Because there is always just a decent chance that like

2131
01:54:40,960 --> 01:54:43,240
Speaker 9: they've done something horrible like this is a problem with

2132
01:54:43,400 --> 01:54:46,160
Speaker 9: just like the structure of electoral democracy, right, Yeah, this

2133
01:54:46,280 --> 01:54:48,919
Speaker 9: is a structural problem with the way that electoral democracy

2134
01:54:48,960 --> 01:54:51,760
Speaker 9: is about selecting your rulers and the fact that people

2135
01:54:51,760 --> 01:54:53,760
Speaker 9: who want to become rulers also just have a higher

2136
01:54:53,840 --> 01:54:56,680
Speaker 9: chance of being able to get away with shit like this,

2137
01:54:57,440 --> 01:54:59,520
Speaker 9: and that's something that you have to manage to make

2138
01:54:59,560 --> 01:55:03,240
Speaker 9: sure that, like your movements are not just one guy

2139
01:55:03,520 --> 01:55:06,080
Speaker 9: who can fuck the entire thing over by being a

2140
01:55:06,120 --> 01:55:06,640
Speaker 9: piece of shit.

2141
01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:12,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, and yeah, Rasco specifically talking about how she hesitated

2142
01:55:12,120 --> 01:55:16,040
Speaker 8: to come forward because she agrees with this, with this politics,

2143
01:55:16,080 --> 01:55:18,600
Speaker 8: with this movement, I mean, is completely devastating, and that

2144
01:55:18,680 --> 01:55:22,480
Speaker 8: this reminds me of you know, the allegations, right, Like

2145
01:55:23,280 --> 01:55:26,680
Speaker 8: sexual assault is a problem across everything from you know,

2146
01:55:26,840 --> 01:55:30,080
Speaker 8: like non hierarchical anarchist organizing to the labor movement to

2147
01:55:30,240 --> 01:55:35,040
Speaker 8: electoral campaigns. Not every rapist is going to have a

2148
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:39,160
Speaker 8: Nazi tattoo. Bad politics now is going to have is

2149
01:55:39,200 --> 01:55:42,040
Speaker 8: going to have bad politics, right, and like re looking

2150
01:55:42,080 --> 01:55:44,360
Speaker 8: at the sort of many red flags this has I

2151
01:55:44,400 --> 01:55:46,280
Speaker 8: think a lot of people saw that like something like

2152
01:55:46,360 --> 01:55:50,480
Speaker 8: this is a possibility, but a possibility is not an inevitability. Yeah,

2153
01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:53,240
Speaker 8: And for a lot of people, especially in Maine, right,

2154
01:55:53,320 --> 01:55:56,920
Speaker 8: the political platform and the community ties that Platner established

2155
01:55:57,320 --> 01:56:00,440
Speaker 8: outweighed the many red flags of Platner as a person.

2156
01:56:00,920 --> 01:56:03,400
Speaker 8: He kind of pushed that to of a very a

2157
01:56:03,520 --> 01:56:05,600
Speaker 8: very far limit, like farther than I've seen in a

2158
01:56:05,640 --> 01:56:08,200
Speaker 8: lot of electoral campaigns of how far he was able

2159
01:56:08,280 --> 01:56:14,160
Speaker 8: to maintain support. Yeah, rather than that illustrating something uniquely

2160
01:56:14,320 --> 01:56:18,720
Speaker 8: special about Platner as a person, that shows the depth

2161
01:56:18,800 --> 01:56:22,000
Speaker 8: of the desire to unseat who's in Collins and the

2162
01:56:22,160 --> 01:56:25,600
Speaker 8: lack of trust in the democratic establishment. Now, this rape

2163
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:30,880
Speaker 8: allegation is obviously completely discrediting by itself, and also because

2164
01:56:30,880 --> 01:56:35,400
Speaker 8: of how it clearly illuminates this pattern of lying and dishonesty.

2165
01:56:35,840 --> 01:56:39,080
Speaker 8: I think that that compounds a lot of the issues

2166
01:56:39,120 --> 01:56:40,800
Speaker 8: that people have been talking about with Platner for a

2167
01:56:40,880 --> 01:56:43,560
Speaker 8: long time. And you know, like even something like the tattoo, right,

2168
01:56:43,720 --> 01:56:45,960
Speaker 8: even if he did not know what the tattoo was

2169
01:56:46,040 --> 01:56:46,680
Speaker 8: when he got it.

2170
01:56:47,000 --> 01:56:49,280
Speaker 2: Which I never believed, like, and we said that when

2171
01:56:49,400 --> 01:56:52,640
Speaker 2: at the time that that's that was never a credible story, right.

2172
01:56:52,880 --> 01:56:55,360
Speaker 8: Fellow Marines in his group who also got the tattoo,

2173
01:56:55,360 --> 01:56:57,000
Speaker 8: Where any of you by Zeto, They said they didn't

2174
01:56:57,040 --> 01:56:58,040
Speaker 8: know what it was.

2175
01:56:58,440 --> 01:57:01,160
Speaker 2: That's not what I'm talking about. He stated that he

2176
01:57:01,280 --> 01:57:03,760
Speaker 2: had not realized prior to it coming out that it

2177
01:57:03,880 --> 01:57:06,080
Speaker 2: is Nazi, after he had said that he loved the

2178
01:57:06,160 --> 01:57:10,040
Speaker 2: movie Come and See, which that image is repeatedly. That

2179
01:57:10,200 --> 01:57:12,440
Speaker 2: was when I was like, well, he's a liar, right, yes,

2180
01:57:12,600 --> 01:57:14,800
Speaker 2: we said, we talked about this on air, by the way, Yeah,

2181
01:57:14,920 --> 01:57:15,640
Speaker 2: just to be clear.

2182
01:57:15,960 --> 01:57:19,880
Speaker 8: Yes, and debating whether or not he is a Nazi

2183
01:57:20,520 --> 01:57:25,200
Speaker 8: overlooks the other very clear issues exemplified by the tattoo,

2184
01:57:25,880 --> 01:57:29,800
Speaker 8: you know, recklessness, poor judgment. And then considering these new allegations,

2185
01:57:30,200 --> 01:57:33,120
Speaker 8: you know, Platner's dishonesty right, based on the conflicting reports

2186
01:57:33,160 --> 01:57:37,560
Speaker 8: of when he learned of the tattoos Nazi associations, and

2187
01:57:37,720 --> 01:57:39,600
Speaker 8: I think that bolster's the fact that he has a

2188
01:57:39,720 --> 01:57:42,680
Speaker 8: pattern of lying and especially like lying to get into

2189
01:57:42,800 --> 01:57:47,960
Speaker 8: power multiple times these past few months, Platner has reassured senators, supporters,

2190
01:57:48,000 --> 01:57:52,280
Speaker 8: and volunteers that no new allegations would be coming out

2191
01:57:52,360 --> 01:57:56,080
Speaker 8: against him, even while he was aware that Jenny Rascoe

2192
01:57:56,520 --> 01:57:59,800
Speaker 8: was speaking without lets like The New York Times, Platner

2193
01:57:59,840 --> 01:58:03,800
Speaker 8: had until July thirteenth to drop out of the race

2194
01:58:04,080 --> 01:58:07,520
Speaker 8: to be removed from the ballot, and the party has

2195
01:58:07,640 --> 01:58:10,040
Speaker 8: until July twenty seventh to select a new candidate to

2196
01:58:10,160 --> 01:58:13,400
Speaker 8: appear on the November ballot. There's a lot of conflicting

2197
01:58:13,520 --> 01:58:16,280
Speaker 8: reporting on when exactly Plattner is going to drop out

2198
01:58:16,320 --> 01:58:19,640
Speaker 8: and why he has not yet, And I might do

2199
01:58:19,680 --> 01:58:21,920
Speaker 8: an update on this based on what will change in

2200
01:58:22,000 --> 01:58:24,840
Speaker 8: the next few hours the next day, but as of

2201
01:58:24,960 --> 01:58:27,840
Speaker 8: right now, there is seemingly a conflict or kind of

2202
01:58:27,880 --> 01:58:31,240
Speaker 8: like a power struggle between his campaign and the Democratic

2203
01:58:31,280 --> 01:58:35,680
Speaker 8: Party on deciding the transparency of the process to select

2204
01:58:35,760 --> 01:58:38,000
Speaker 8: the next candidate. There's been a few people from the

2205
01:58:38,080 --> 01:58:40,280
Speaker 8: governor's race, as I mentioned, who's thrown their hat in

2206
01:58:40,320 --> 01:58:43,320
Speaker 8: the ring. Troy Jackson has file paperwork. He was the

2207
01:58:43,400 --> 01:58:47,640
Speaker 8: only DSA endorsed candidate in the main governor's race, alsodorsed

2208
01:58:47,640 --> 01:58:51,280
Speaker 8: by Sanders. Doctor Nurov shaw a kind of more like

2209
01:58:51,480 --> 01:58:55,600
Speaker 8: moderate progressive, announced his intention and as part of his

2210
01:58:55,640 --> 01:59:00,600
Speaker 8: announcement he mentioned opposition to Israel. He's kind of trying

2211
01:59:00,600 --> 01:59:03,000
Speaker 8: to move in the direction of Platinir's politics. Even though

2212
01:59:03,040 --> 01:59:07,160
Speaker 8: traditionally he has been more of a moderate liberal. We'll

2213
01:59:07,200 --> 01:59:09,760
Speaker 8: find out in the next few days if the platform

2214
01:59:09,800 --> 01:59:13,680
Speaker 8: and campaign style that was so successful can transfer to

2215
01:59:13,840 --> 01:59:17,200
Speaker 8: someone else, because I think this campaign has provided a

2216
01:59:17,360 --> 01:59:21,240
Speaker 8: very effective blueprint of in person engagement, town halls, leaning

2217
01:59:21,320 --> 01:59:25,480
Speaker 8: on local organizing connections, and having those connections in organized

2218
01:59:25,520 --> 01:59:28,840
Speaker 8: labor helped determine a platform. A platform that has stuff

2219
01:59:28,920 --> 01:59:31,520
Speaker 8: like Medicare for all, tax rich, no money for Israel,

2220
01:59:31,560 --> 01:59:35,160
Speaker 8: Supreme Court reform, destroying citizens United, but also stuff like

2221
01:59:35,280 --> 01:59:39,880
Speaker 8: investing in manufacturing public utilities, building clean energy, and strengthening

2222
01:59:40,200 --> 01:59:45,520
Speaker 8: labor organizing laws. Yeah, quick update here. A few hours

2223
01:59:45,600 --> 01:59:51,480
Speaker 8: after recording, Platna released a lengthy eleven minute video maintaining

2224
01:59:51,600 --> 01:59:56,280
Speaker 8: these allegations are false and attacking the corporate media system

2225
01:59:56,320 --> 01:59:59,560
Speaker 8: and the quote unquote political establishment. Towards the end of

2226
01:59:59,600 --> 02:00:03,560
Speaker 8: the video, he announced the campaign is suspending operations and

2227
02:00:03,920 --> 02:00:08,080
Speaker 8: said he will withdraw from the race, though he has

2228
02:00:08,200 --> 02:00:11,839
Speaker 8: not yet officially dropped out of the race, and reports

2229
02:00:11,880 --> 02:00:15,320
Speaker 8: indicate he will not do so until Monday, which is

2230
02:00:15,480 --> 02:00:20,120
Speaker 8: the deadline. Also on Wednesday night, we got a better

2231
02:00:20,240 --> 02:00:23,120
Speaker 8: look at what the replacement process is going to be

2232
02:00:23,920 --> 02:00:28,240
Speaker 8: and instead of an open caucus, basically a mini primary.

2233
02:00:28,880 --> 02:00:31,720
Speaker 8: The main state Democrats have decided to go forward with

2234
02:00:31,960 --> 02:00:37,360
Speaker 8: a six hundred person nominating convention, with five hundred delegates

2235
02:00:37,520 --> 02:00:42,200
Speaker 8: elected proportionally by county committees and one hundred delegates from

2236
02:00:42,400 --> 02:00:45,800
Speaker 8: the state committee. This is not the most open or

2237
02:00:45,920 --> 02:00:49,480
Speaker 8: democratic option the state party could have gone forward with,

2238
02:00:50,240 --> 02:00:53,440
Speaker 8: and could cause some real blowback from voters who will

2239
02:00:53,480 --> 02:00:56,360
Speaker 8: be unable to participate in choosing the nominee.

2240
02:00:57,600 --> 02:01:00,080
Speaker 2: Well, we should talk about I guess the right and

2241
02:01:00,280 --> 02:01:04,000
Speaker 2: Grim of it all. Yeah, sure so, Ryan Grim with

2242
02:01:04,080 --> 02:01:07,680
Speaker 2: drop Side News published earlier and breaking points as well. Yeah,

2243
02:01:07,720 --> 02:01:10,520
Speaker 2: and breaking points earlier today this Wednesday the eighth, when

2244
02:01:10,560 --> 02:01:14,560
Speaker 2: we recorded that essentially the initial reports had not mentioned

2245
02:01:15,000 --> 02:01:17,600
Speaker 2: a couple of what they felt were relevant facts, one

2246
02:01:17,640 --> 02:01:21,680
Speaker 2: of which was that before texting him not to come over,

2247
02:01:21,800 --> 02:01:24,160
Speaker 2: she had texted about needing a massage on her glutes,

2248
02:01:24,160 --> 02:01:26,680
Speaker 2: which I don't see as super relevant.

2249
02:01:27,040 --> 02:01:27,080
Speaker 8: No.

2250
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:30,920
Speaker 2: I think the argument being made, particularly by dropside, is that, like, well,

2251
02:01:30,960 --> 02:01:33,560
Speaker 2: this was still a relevant detail that was not included.

2252
02:01:34,280 --> 02:01:36,200
Speaker 2: The other thing that wasn't that report that is more

2253
02:01:36,280 --> 02:01:40,200
Speaker 2: relevant is the fact that Politico had details about this

2254
02:01:40,360 --> 02:01:43,960
Speaker 2: assault way before they released them right like, way before

2255
02:01:43,960 --> 02:01:46,000
Speaker 2: it actually came out that may have been relevant to voters.

2256
02:01:46,000 --> 02:01:48,600
Speaker 2: They do think that's a fair critique. I don't agree

2257
02:01:48,920 --> 02:01:51,640
Speaker 2: with the relevance at all of her mentioning that she

2258
02:01:51,760 --> 02:01:54,440
Speaker 2: needed a massage. That's not an invitation to sex that

2259
02:01:55,000 --> 02:01:57,360
Speaker 2: doesn't like. I see that as entirely unrelevant, And I

2260
02:01:58,120 --> 02:02:01,320
Speaker 2: think that this is within a tradition of that particular

2261
02:02:01,480 --> 02:02:07,440
Speaker 2: journalist defending people that he likes from allegations that are credible.

2262
02:02:07,640 --> 02:02:11,120
Speaker 2: I don't particularly respect this decision, but it's relevant.

2263
02:02:11,800 --> 02:02:14,360
Speaker 8: It's a pretty gross move to take this moment and

2264
02:02:14,400 --> 02:02:18,520
Speaker 8: then try to inject any amount of doubt into what's

2265
02:02:18,600 --> 02:02:23,600
Speaker 8: happened and peddling this politely i'll say soft rape apologia.

2266
02:02:24,280 --> 02:02:27,440
Speaker 8: That's it's disgusting. There's this a very similar thing coming

2267
02:02:27,680 --> 02:02:31,760
Speaker 8: from the Young Turks, from an Kasparian and Chenk. I'm

2268
02:02:31,840 --> 02:02:35,920
Speaker 8: happy that the majority report people turned on Graham like

2269
02:02:36,000 --> 02:02:42,280
Speaker 8: immediately apologized for defending him throughout these these past these

2270
02:02:42,320 --> 02:02:45,480
Speaker 8: past few months and said that they were wrong about

2271
02:02:45,600 --> 02:02:47,760
Speaker 8: him as a person. Yeah, I'm glad they did that.

2272
02:02:48,040 --> 02:02:50,960
Speaker 8: But what Grimm did hear and what the Young Turks

2273
02:02:51,000 --> 02:02:54,520
Speaker 8: are doing is just completely despicable. Yeah, I think it's

2274
02:02:54,640 --> 02:02:56,240
Speaker 8: I think it's gross repulsive.

2275
02:02:56,360 --> 02:02:56,560
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2276
02:02:56,880 --> 02:03:00,680
Speaker 2: I don't think there's any reason to bring that specific

2277
02:03:00,760 --> 02:03:04,200
Speaker 2: detail up other than to try to inject out like you.

2278
02:03:04,200 --> 02:03:07,600
Speaker 9: Said, Yeah, I want to say just one thing about

2279
02:03:07,840 --> 02:03:11,000
Speaker 9: the way that consent works, which is that if you

2280
02:03:11,280 --> 02:03:14,320
Speaker 9: withdraw consent at any time, no matter what happened before,

2281
02:03:14,440 --> 02:03:18,000
Speaker 9: it is withdrawn. That's that's how it works. And if

2282
02:03:18,040 --> 02:03:21,640
Speaker 9: anyone like, regardless of what happened until that moment, you

2283
02:03:21,760 --> 02:03:24,280
Speaker 9: have to continue consenting. And if you stop consenting, the

2284
02:03:24,320 --> 02:03:27,120
Speaker 9: moment you stop consenting like you have stopped consenting, it

2285
02:03:27,240 --> 02:03:30,160
Speaker 9: becomes assault. I just I want to be extremely clear

2286
02:03:30,200 --> 02:03:32,440
Speaker 9: about that because people are trying to muddy the waters

2287
02:03:32,480 --> 02:03:35,120
Speaker 9: about this, and this is just an important thing for

2288
02:03:35,160 --> 02:03:37,400
Speaker 9: people to understand about the way that consent works.

2289
02:03:37,680 --> 02:03:39,520
Speaker 2: I think that would be even more relevant if she'd

2290
02:03:39,520 --> 02:03:42,280
Speaker 2: said come over and then said don't later. But like

2291
02:03:42,480 --> 02:03:46,560
Speaker 2: what she said was not even starting the Yeah, no,

2292
02:03:46,840 --> 02:03:48,920
Speaker 2: it's not even that, but but I I just want

2293
02:03:48,920 --> 02:03:51,040
Speaker 2: to be clear about it. According to Grim's report, she

2294
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:53,400
Speaker 2: did not even ask him for a massage.

2295
02:03:53,560 --> 02:03:53,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2296
02:03:54,120 --> 02:03:56,360
Speaker 8: His entire motivation to do this is so is so

2297
02:03:56,520 --> 02:03:58,880
Speaker 8: suspib Like, hey, he's trying to say this is about

2298
02:03:58,880 --> 02:04:02,560
Speaker 8: like journalistic in tegrity and how Politico and CNN we're

2299
02:04:02,640 --> 02:04:06,400
Speaker 8: dishonest with yeah, Rasaco's you know claims, and like that's

2300
02:04:06,560 --> 02:04:09,320
Speaker 8: that's it's completely absurd. I think anyone with half a

2301
02:04:09,360 --> 02:04:11,000
Speaker 8: brainon cell can see what he's trying to do here,

2302
02:04:11,040 --> 02:04:11,840
Speaker 8: and it's and it's gross.

2303
02:04:11,960 --> 02:04:13,280
Speaker 2: I simply don't agree with that.

2304
02:04:13,720 --> 02:04:13,880
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2305
02:04:13,920 --> 02:04:16,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, And I think I think the other thing that's

2306
02:04:16,800 --> 02:04:20,840
Speaker 9: kind of very bleak about this is that like there

2307
02:04:21,000 --> 02:04:25,560
Speaker 9: is more proof here than yeah, most people who are

2308
02:04:25,600 --> 02:04:29,440
Speaker 9: sexually assaulted are going to have right, and this is

2309
02:04:29,520 --> 02:04:32,680
Speaker 9: still the reaction that that it's getting from like fortunately

2310
02:04:32,840 --> 02:04:35,240
Speaker 9: not a very large number of people, but still people

2311
02:04:35,280 --> 02:04:36,040
Speaker 9: who have large.

2312
02:04:35,880 --> 02:04:37,760
Speaker 8: But still pretty influential yeah people.

2313
02:04:37,880 --> 02:04:40,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, And and that's you know, like this is

2314
02:04:40,480 --> 02:04:43,400
Speaker 9: part of the reason why, you know, when this shit

2315
02:04:43,520 --> 02:04:47,680
Speaker 9: happens everywhere from like five person anarchist collectives up to

2316
02:04:47,840 --> 02:04:50,120
Speaker 9: like the DSA, up to like the Democratic Party up

2317
02:04:50,160 --> 02:04:52,120
Speaker 9: to the like the president of the fucking United States,

2318
02:04:52,640 --> 02:04:55,440
Speaker 9: why this ship plays out like this because this is

2319
02:04:55,520 --> 02:04:59,640
Speaker 9: just a structural factor of politics writ large, is that

2320
02:05:00,080 --> 02:05:01,560
Speaker 9: you are going to have to deal with people who

2321
02:05:01,640 --> 02:05:03,720
Speaker 9: fucking do this and their fight to get away with

2322
02:05:03,800 --> 02:05:05,960
Speaker 9: it and people who try to run cover for them.

2323
02:05:06,560 --> 02:05:06,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2324
02:05:06,960 --> 02:05:08,360
Speaker 2: I think this is part of why I have an

2325
02:05:08,360 --> 02:05:10,919
Speaker 2: issue sometimes with folks when there's like a new allegation

2326
02:05:11,000 --> 02:05:14,560
Speaker 2: against like a conservative politician or like a right wing

2327
02:05:14,840 --> 02:05:17,440
Speaker 2: church figure or something, and they're like, it's always these guys,

2328
02:05:17,480 --> 02:05:20,360
Speaker 2: and it's like, no, it's every Like pedophilia is all

2329
02:05:20,400 --> 02:05:23,080
Speaker 2: over the place. It exists in left wing organizations and

2330
02:05:23,160 --> 02:05:25,240
Speaker 2: right wing organizations. And when you start being like, well,

2331
02:05:25,280 --> 02:05:27,000
Speaker 2: this is a thing the bad people do, not a

2332
02:05:27,040 --> 02:05:30,080
Speaker 2: thing the good people do, then you've created a place

2333
02:05:30,160 --> 02:05:33,120
Speaker 2: in which the people who do that have cover, Like

2334
02:05:33,240 --> 02:05:35,160
Speaker 2: that's that's what you're doing when you're like, now, bad

2335
02:05:35,240 --> 02:05:37,000
Speaker 2: people do that, so no one that I agree with

2336
02:05:37,080 --> 02:05:37,800
Speaker 2: would Yeah.

2337
02:05:38,200 --> 02:05:40,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like sexual violence and getting away with it, that's

2338
02:05:40,440 --> 02:05:43,400
Speaker 9: a structural force, right, Like that, that's something that is

2339
02:05:43,520 --> 02:05:47,320
Speaker 9: brought about by like large scale structural forces that, regardless

2340
02:05:47,360 --> 02:05:51,200
Speaker 9: of what people stated, politics are transcendose divides and people

2341
02:05:51,280 --> 02:05:53,880
Speaker 9: do it. Anyways, Well, let's go on a break and

2342
02:05:53,960 --> 02:05:58,080
Speaker 9: then we will return with more news because more things

2343
02:05:58,120 --> 02:05:59,560
Speaker 9: happened this past week.

2344
02:06:11,320 --> 02:06:15,280
Speaker 2: All Right, we're back, and you know, there's simply nothing

2345
02:06:15,360 --> 02:06:18,720
Speaker 2: to say, but it's time for a little musical interlude.

2346
02:06:20,200 --> 02:06:26,120
Speaker 2: Locky jazz rocky jazz bo.

2347
02:06:26,440 --> 02:06:28,240
Speaker 8: Sorry, lock.

2348
02:06:30,440 --> 02:06:37,000
Speaker 2: Locky jazz bo rocky jazz bo. Ah, Oh god, that

2349
02:06:37,160 --> 02:06:39,760
Speaker 2: just hits every single time. It's been too long. Yeah,

2350
02:06:39,840 --> 02:06:43,120
Speaker 2: it really has, it really has, it really has. The

2351
02:06:43,240 --> 02:06:46,080
Speaker 2: time makes fools of us all mia. What's happening in

2352
02:06:46,160 --> 02:06:46,880
Speaker 2: tariffs today?

2353
02:06:47,440 --> 02:06:50,040
Speaker 9: The tariffs have been in committee, which is why the

2354
02:06:50,080 --> 02:06:52,200
Speaker 9: tariff song has been It has been in the box.

2355
02:06:52,280 --> 02:06:55,840
Speaker 9: But they are no longer in committee. So long long ago,

2356
02:06:56,080 --> 02:06:59,280
Speaker 9: in a galaxy far far away, which is to say, February,

2357
02:06:59,680 --> 02:07:03,840
Speaker 9: in a slightly different department, we talked about the possibility

2358
02:07:03,920 --> 02:07:06,640
Speaker 9: of Trump replacing the tariffs that the Supreme Court struck

2359
02:07:06,720 --> 02:07:10,080
Speaker 9: down by using a series of different sets of tariffs.

2360
02:07:10,600 --> 02:07:14,440
Speaker 9: One of the sets that we mentioned are tariffs imposed

2361
02:07:14,480 --> 02:07:17,000
Speaker 9: by using Section three ZHO one of the US Trade

2362
02:07:17,040 --> 02:07:20,000
Speaker 9: Act of nineteen seventy four. This allows the administration to

2363
02:07:20,160 --> 02:07:23,560
Speaker 9: carry out an investigation into unfair trade practices and that

2364
02:07:23,600 --> 02:07:27,960
Speaker 9: imposed teriffs after the investigation is concluded. Now, the administration

2365
02:07:28,720 --> 02:07:33,280
Speaker 9: basically set one of these investigations in motion, effectively the

2366
02:07:33,400 --> 02:07:38,120
Speaker 9: moments the ruling was decided in February and on July second,

2367
02:07:38,360 --> 02:07:42,840
Speaker 9: they returned with their conclusions, which Lo and Behold found

2368
02:07:42,960 --> 02:07:46,839
Speaker 9: that fifty four countries were failing to take appropriate measures

2369
02:07:46,880 --> 02:07:50,560
Speaker 9: to quote impose and effectively enforce a prohibition on the

2370
02:07:50,640 --> 02:07:54,400
Speaker 9: importation of goods produced with forced labor. Now these countries,

2371
02:07:54,560 --> 02:07:57,400
Speaker 9: on top of Russia and China, include traditional US allies

2372
02:07:57,480 --> 02:08:00,520
Speaker 9: like Israel, Japan, South Korea, and India.

2373
02:08:01,320 --> 02:08:04,760
Speaker 8: I think you mean the Islamic Republic of Japan. I'm sorry,

2374
02:08:04,880 --> 02:08:07,280
Speaker 8: I had to. I just I could not let that

2375
02:08:07,400 --> 02:08:11,480
Speaker 8: one escape me. I missed that reference. Did someone trum

2376
02:08:11,720 --> 02:08:15,720
Speaker 8: Trump today said the words the Islamic Republic of Japan?

2377
02:08:16,360 --> 02:08:19,200
Speaker 8: Whether I think he did not mean to say the

2378
02:08:19,360 --> 02:08:20,920
Speaker 8: Islamic Republic of Japan.

2379
02:08:21,520 --> 02:08:26,680
Speaker 2: What country has taken fewer Islamic refugees than Japan? Like,

2380
02:08:26,760 --> 02:08:29,000
Speaker 2: I don't even understand down that could be like a

2381
02:08:29,160 --> 02:08:30,320
Speaker 2: conservative bugbear?

2382
02:08:30,880 --> 02:08:35,120
Speaker 8: He says, the Islamic Republic of Japan fired missiles at

2383
02:08:35,280 --> 02:08:35,960
Speaker 8: US shifts.

2384
02:08:36,040 --> 02:08:38,720
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, he just misspoke. He misspoke. He's trying to

2385
02:08:38,760 --> 02:08:43,720
Speaker 2: say Ron It's just a normal senior moment from our

2386
02:08:43,800 --> 02:08:46,920
Speaker 2: president as he launches or continues a series of illegal

2387
02:08:46,960 --> 02:08:51,000
Speaker 2: attacks on foreign countries. Just a normal senior moment from

2388
02:08:51,040 --> 02:08:57,000
Speaker 2: our president. We're good, We're good, everything's fine us. Incredible

2389
02:08:57,040 --> 02:09:02,240
Speaker 2: stuff happening here that yeah, or that it cannot produce. Actually, admittedly,

2390
02:09:03,200 --> 02:09:06,560
Speaker 2: this is not the first time in our lifetimes that

2391
02:09:06,720 --> 02:09:09,120
Speaker 2: our president has not been able to correctly name the

2392
02:09:09,160 --> 02:09:12,600
Speaker 2: country which he is bombing. There isn't sure, isn't. It's

2393
02:09:12,680 --> 02:09:16,000
Speaker 2: not even the second president that this has happened to

2394
02:09:16,120 --> 02:09:18,440
Speaker 2: in our lifetime. No, I'm not certain.

2395
02:09:18,520 --> 02:09:19,160
Speaker 6: It's the third.

2396
02:09:19,880 --> 02:09:23,280
Speaker 9: Like three out of four. I'm pretty sure Bill Clinton.

2397
02:09:22,960 --> 02:09:24,960
Speaker 4: Could do it, So that's like three out of five.

2398
02:09:25,160 --> 02:09:28,120
Speaker 2: But I'm not one hundred percent. He's a country boy.

2399
02:09:28,240 --> 02:09:30,640
Speaker 2: He probably fucked it up once. Now, we didn't bomb

2400
02:09:30,680 --> 02:09:32,600
Speaker 2: as many people when he was president, but we didn't

2401
02:09:32,640 --> 02:09:33,480
Speaker 2: bomb no people.

2402
02:09:33,560 --> 02:09:37,160
Speaker 9: That's probably true. Good God, good god.

2403
02:09:37,400 --> 02:09:41,400
Speaker 8: Okay, So sorry, sorry, my apologies, it's okay, it's okay,

2404
02:09:41,960 --> 02:09:44,200
Speaker 8: returning for this this bleak interlude.

2405
02:09:44,280 --> 02:09:47,440
Speaker 9: So again, countries that the US are saying like are

2406
02:09:47,560 --> 02:09:50,640
Speaker 9: not enforcing this prohibition on the importation of goods abuses

2407
02:09:50,680 --> 02:09:53,720
Speaker 9: for slabor. So these again include a bunch of traditional

2408
02:09:53,840 --> 02:09:57,560
Speaker 9: US allies like Japan, South Korea, India, and Israel, which

2409
02:09:57,600 --> 02:10:00,600
Speaker 9: is sort of interesting. It also says quote the following

2410
02:10:00,680 --> 02:10:04,000
Speaker 9: six economies have failed to effectively enforce a prohibition on

2411
02:10:04,600 --> 02:10:08,400
Speaker 9: the importation of goods produced with forced labor. Canada, Ecuador,

2412
02:10:08,680 --> 02:10:13,320
Speaker 9: the European Union, Indonesia, Mexico, and Pakistan. So on this

2413
02:10:13,480 --> 02:10:18,120
Speaker 9: list that is the entire EU, Canada, Mexico, China, India, Japan,

2414
02:10:18,240 --> 02:10:20,360
Speaker 9: South Korea, Brazil, and Turkey, which is a list of

2415
02:10:20,360 --> 02:10:23,600
Speaker 9: the world's largest economies. And then also there's a few

2416
02:10:24,040 --> 02:10:29,000
Speaker 9: kind of oddball ones like poor Sri Lanka, which they

2417
02:10:29,160 --> 02:10:30,960
Speaker 9: really have something out for Sri Lanka. I don't know

2418
02:10:31,000 --> 02:10:33,240
Speaker 9: exactly why it keeps showing up on these terif lists,

2419
02:10:33,520 --> 02:10:36,840
Speaker 9: despite the fact that these poor people have been just

2420
02:10:37,200 --> 02:10:41,480
Speaker 9: suffering unbelievably devastating economic consequences for a very long time.

2421
02:10:42,120 --> 02:10:44,640
Speaker 9: Now I am in the unfortunate position of having to

2422
02:10:44,800 --> 02:10:48,760
Speaker 9: agree with California's Attorney General, a thing I am not

2423
02:10:48,920 --> 02:10:52,120
Speaker 9: typically doing. But he did in fact say something which

2424
02:10:52,160 --> 02:10:55,120
Speaker 9: is true that this list of countries is in fact

2425
02:10:55,240 --> 02:10:57,000
Speaker 9: ninety nine percent of all US imports.

2426
02:10:57,760 --> 02:11:01,160
Speaker 6: So okay. Now we can.

2427
02:11:01,120 --> 02:11:04,800
Speaker 9: Obviously note here the hypocrisy of imposing teriffs for forced

2428
02:11:04,880 --> 02:11:08,160
Speaker 9: labor in a country whose constitution specifically allows forced labor

2429
02:11:08,200 --> 02:11:11,120
Speaker 9: for prisoners, and note that you know, forced labor of

2430
02:11:11,200 --> 02:11:13,120
Speaker 9: various kinds from a dentuer service you to debt, p

2431
02:11:13,240 --> 02:11:15,839
Speaker 9: andage to various kinds of slavery have been key elements

2432
02:11:15,880 --> 02:11:18,000
Speaker 9: to the development of capitalism from the beginning. But this

2433
02:11:18,120 --> 02:11:19,880
Speaker 9: is not about forced labor at all, as I think

2434
02:11:19,920 --> 02:11:25,360
Speaker 9: anyone who is even remotely paying attention will understand. So

2435
02:11:25,760 --> 02:11:29,920
Speaker 9: the tariff rates are nominally tied to setting up systems

2436
02:11:29,960 --> 02:11:32,640
Speaker 9: that ensure that goods produced with forced labor aren't being

2437
02:11:32,680 --> 02:11:35,760
Speaker 9: sent to the US. With countries who are like out

2438
02:11:35,800 --> 02:11:38,240
Speaker 9: of compliance with the US system would do that getting

2439
02:11:38,240 --> 02:11:40,400
Speaker 9: a twelve percent twelve point five percent tariff rate, and

2440
02:11:40,400 --> 02:11:43,560
Speaker 9: countries who are complying facing ten percent teriff rates. That's

2441
02:11:43,600 --> 02:11:46,800
Speaker 9: at least the theory. The practice is not that, as

2442
02:11:46,840 --> 02:11:50,000
Speaker 9: the diplomat notes quote. The proposed teriff rates, however, cannot

2443
02:11:50,040 --> 02:11:53,360
Speaker 9: be explained by human rights concerns alone. Thailand and Vietnam

2444
02:11:53,400 --> 02:11:57,200
Speaker 9: at the Philippines have not established import prohibition systems meeting

2445
02:11:57,360 --> 02:11:59,960
Speaker 9: US standards and face a twelve point five percent tariff.

2446
02:12:00,400 --> 02:12:03,280
Speaker 9: Malaysia and Cambodia likewise lacks US systems, but phase a

2447
02:12:03,320 --> 02:12:07,240
Speaker 9: tariff for fully ten percent. So this is just a

2448
02:12:07,400 --> 02:12:11,040
Speaker 9: fairly naked attempt to reimpose the set of tariffs that

2449
02:12:11,040 --> 02:12:15,080
Speaker 9: Trump initially imposed in February in the wake of that

2450
02:12:15,120 --> 02:12:17,560
Speaker 9: Supreme Court decision. We talked about those in a different episode.

2451
02:12:18,000 --> 02:12:20,880
Speaker 9: They are up for a July twenty fourth deadline, so

2452
02:12:20,880 --> 02:12:22,640
Speaker 9: it's pretty clear that this report is time to come

2453
02:12:22,680 --> 02:12:26,200
Speaker 9: out in a way to allows these tariffs, which are

2454
02:12:26,680 --> 02:12:29,000
Speaker 9: very very similar to the ones that were already in place,

2455
02:12:29,760 --> 02:12:35,240
Speaker 9: to go into effect. Now, it's worth noting that those

2456
02:12:35,320 --> 02:12:37,920
Speaker 9: tariffs had some bad court rulings. They're probably not going

2457
02:12:37,960 --> 02:12:40,080
Speaker 9: to last long enough to get like a good Supreme

2458
02:12:40,120 --> 02:12:43,120
Speaker 9: Court ruling on it before they come out of effect.

2459
02:12:44,240 --> 02:12:46,680
Speaker 9: So those ones probably won't be lifted by a court

2460
02:12:46,760 --> 02:12:49,080
Speaker 9: order just because there's not enough time. But there's a

2461
02:12:49,120 --> 02:12:51,440
Speaker 9: good chance that these terroriffs are also not going to survive.

2462
02:12:51,880 --> 02:12:55,000
Speaker 9: But the California Attorney General is part of a very

2463
02:12:55,160 --> 02:12:58,360
Speaker 9: large group of state attorney generals which features the attorney

2464
02:12:58,440 --> 02:13:02,120
Speaker 9: general of almost every state with a Democratic governor, which

2465
02:13:02,200 --> 02:13:03,480
Speaker 9: I'm not going to read the list out because it's

2466
02:13:03,480 --> 02:13:06,400
Speaker 9: a bunch of them, but they are once again suing

2467
02:13:06,440 --> 02:13:11,040
Speaker 9: the administration over these tariffs. So here here we are

2468
02:13:11,120 --> 02:13:17,000
Speaker 9: again riding the tariff roller coaster, and yeah, we're back

2469
02:13:17,520 --> 02:13:20,120
Speaker 9: with the Trump administration trying to impose ten to twelve

2470
02:13:20,120 --> 02:13:21,800
Speaker 9: percent tariffs on most of the economies in the.

2471
02:13:21,760 --> 02:13:27,320
Speaker 8: World, speaking of the Islamic Republic of not Japan. No boy,

2472
02:13:27,760 --> 02:13:30,879
Speaker 8: here is James Stout with a special segment.

2473
02:13:32,840 --> 02:13:34,720
Speaker 7: So what I want to talk about today is this

2474
02:13:34,920 --> 02:13:38,360
Speaker 7: lawsuit recently filed by the Iranian American Legal Defense Fund,

2475
02:13:38,520 --> 02:13:44,800
Speaker 7: represented by Public Citizen, which has some incredible accusations about

2476
02:13:44,800 --> 02:13:48,840
Speaker 7: what the United States government has done to people who

2477
02:13:48,920 --> 02:13:53,080
Speaker 7: are Iranian nationals seeking asylum in the United States. Specifically,

2478
02:13:53,240 --> 02:13:55,800
Speaker 7: they're alleging that the US government has just closed confidential

2479
02:13:55,880 --> 02:13:59,040
Speaker 7: information on Iranian national seeking asylum in the USA to

2480
02:13:59,320 --> 02:14:02,760
Speaker 7: the Iranian government. I am going to reference a complaint

2481
02:14:02,880 --> 02:14:04,960
Speaker 7: and quote from a length quite a bit here, because

2482
02:14:05,000 --> 02:14:08,560
Speaker 7: these accusations are crazy. Not crazy in that I think

2483
02:14:08,560 --> 02:14:11,760
Speaker 7: they're false. I don't think they're false, crazy in that

2484
02:14:11,880 --> 02:14:15,360
Speaker 7: they are abhorrent and disgusting, especially when you consider that

2485
02:14:15,600 --> 02:14:18,440
Speaker 7: the United States government has consistently talked about the rights

2486
02:14:18,480 --> 02:14:22,120
Speaker 7: of people in Iran while all the time violating those

2487
02:14:22,200 --> 02:14:25,480
Speaker 7: same rights. So let's quote from that complaint.

2488
02:14:25,800 --> 02:14:26,120
Speaker 6: Quote.

2489
02:14:26,520 --> 02:14:30,320
Speaker 7: Many of the asylum seekers are pro democracy protesters, members

2490
02:14:30,400 --> 02:14:33,360
Speaker 7: of religious minorities such as evangelical Christians or members of

2491
02:14:33,400 --> 02:14:36,440
Speaker 7: the LGBTQ community, who seek refuge in the United States

2492
02:14:36,520 --> 02:14:39,880
Speaker 7: because of grave dangers they face in Iran. It's closing

2493
02:14:39,880 --> 02:14:43,560
Speaker 7: their confidential information to the Iranian government, violates the asylum seekers'

2494
02:14:43,560 --> 02:14:47,560
Speaker 7: confidentiality rights, endangers their family members and acquaintances who may

2495
02:14:47,640 --> 02:14:50,480
Speaker 7: still be residing in Iran, and puts those who are

2496
02:14:50,680 --> 02:14:54,760
Speaker 7: subject to removal to Iran directly or through chain refilement

2497
02:14:54,840 --> 02:14:59,520
Speaker 7: via third countries at risk persecution, torture, and death following

2498
02:14:59,520 --> 02:15:01,920
Speaker 7: their ribal in it run. If you're not familiar with

2499
02:15:02,000 --> 02:15:04,200
Speaker 7: Jane Refileman, it's sending someone to a third country that

2500
02:15:04,240 --> 02:15:06,400
Speaker 7: will then send them to the place that the USA

2501
02:15:06,760 --> 02:15:09,160
Speaker 7: can't or won't send them due to concerns of persecution

2502
02:15:09,280 --> 02:15:12,360
Speaker 7: or torture. So it's an end ran around international law.

2503
02:15:12,400 --> 02:15:15,160
Speaker 7: It's barred by the ninety fifty one Refugee Convention and

2504
02:15:15,240 --> 02:15:18,320
Speaker 7: the UN Convention against Torture, but the US has been

2505
02:15:18,360 --> 02:15:21,720
Speaker 7: doing it a lot under the Trump two point zero regime.

2506
02:15:22,320 --> 02:15:24,760
Speaker 7: In the course of my work, I have met Iranians

2507
02:15:24,840 --> 02:15:28,520
Speaker 7: from all of the groups described in this complaint, as

2508
02:15:28,560 --> 02:15:30,520
Speaker 7: well as those who are ethnic minority is in country

2509
02:15:30,560 --> 02:15:33,120
Speaker 7: in addition to being parts of the groups described in

2510
02:15:33,240 --> 02:15:37,280
Speaker 7: this complaint. Can think of a group of young Iranian women,

2511
02:15:37,320 --> 02:15:39,720
Speaker 7: I men the Dadian Gap who I spent a good

2512
02:15:39,760 --> 02:15:41,920
Speaker 7: deal of time talking to you really lovely folks of

2513
02:15:42,120 --> 02:15:42,800
Speaker 7: man with them as well.

2514
02:15:42,840 --> 02:15:43,800
Speaker 6: Actually I think about it.

2515
02:15:43,960 --> 02:15:46,720
Speaker 7: You can hear them in my Darien series. I met

2516
02:15:46,760 --> 02:15:50,360
Speaker 7: some Iranian Christians in outdoor attention, a number of them. Remember,

2517
02:15:50,400 --> 02:15:53,320
Speaker 7: one of them was having a heart problem, so it's

2518
02:15:53,440 --> 02:15:55,160
Speaker 7: been a deal of time trying to help her and

2519
02:15:55,240 --> 02:15:58,520
Speaker 7: get her medical attention. As I've covered before in this show,

2520
02:15:59,040 --> 02:16:02,600
Speaker 7: throughout the USA, when Israel's bombing campaign on Iran, Iran

2521
02:16:02,680 --> 02:16:05,560
Speaker 7: has kept killing its own citizens. In the last couple

2522
02:16:05,640 --> 02:16:09,320
Speaker 7: of weeks, it has engaged some of the armed Kurdish

2523
02:16:09,400 --> 02:16:12,800
Speaker 7: groups and there have been casualties on both sides. The

2524
02:16:12,920 --> 02:16:15,920
Speaker 7: process of the US government sharing these records with Iran.

2525
02:16:16,000 --> 02:16:19,280
Speaker 7: The suit alleges began in March of twenty twenty five.

2526
02:16:20,000 --> 02:16:23,440
Speaker 7: It seems to have continued when the US was bombing

2527
02:16:23,600 --> 02:16:27,000
Speaker 7: Iran that year. It seems to have continued while Iran

2528
02:16:27,240 --> 02:16:30,800
Speaker 7: massacred thousands of its own citizens in January of this year,

2529
02:16:31,520 --> 02:16:35,640
Speaker 7: and it continued throughout the United States and Israel's current

2530
02:16:35,800 --> 02:16:39,960
Speaker 7: war on Iran. Indeed, a flight left for Iran on

2531
02:16:40,200 --> 02:16:43,480
Speaker 7: January the twenty fifth of this year, as the dead

2532
02:16:43,560 --> 02:16:46,800
Speaker 7: from the pro democracy protests were only recently in their graves.

2533
02:16:47,800 --> 02:16:50,480
Speaker 7: Iran doesn't have an embassy in the US, and these

2534
02:16:50,520 --> 02:16:53,480
Speaker 7: affairs go through the Iranian Interest Section of the Pakistani embassy.

2535
02:16:54,120 --> 02:16:56,560
Speaker 7: It was to that Iranian Interest section that the State

2536
02:16:56,640 --> 02:17:00,440
Speaker 7: Department reached out in March of twenty twenty five. According

2537
02:17:00,480 --> 02:17:03,760
Speaker 7: to the lawsuit quote, the March twenty twenty five meeting

2538
02:17:03,879 --> 02:17:06,840
Speaker 7: produced an agreement between the United States government and the

2539
02:17:06,959 --> 02:17:11,080
Speaker 7: Iranian government, under which ICE and Iranian government officials have

2540
02:17:11,240 --> 02:17:14,840
Speaker 7: begun holding monthly meetings to share the immigration files and

2541
02:17:14,959 --> 02:17:19,160
Speaker 7: information of Iranians in ICE custody. In addition, since the

2542
02:17:19,240 --> 02:17:22,760
Speaker 7: March twenty twenty five meeting, US government officials have periodically

2543
02:17:22,879 --> 02:17:27,320
Speaker 7: mailed or hand delivered immigration files of Iranians in ICE custody,

2544
02:17:27,640 --> 02:17:31,280
Speaker 7: who the Iranian government then goes onto. Alleged that ICE

2545
02:17:31,360 --> 02:17:34,720
Speaker 7: has provided officials from the Iranian Interest Section with access

2546
02:17:34,800 --> 02:17:38,360
Speaker 7: to people that it has detained and worked with the

2547
02:17:38,440 --> 02:17:41,440
Speaker 7: Iranian government to pressure these people to waive their rights.

2548
02:17:42,120 --> 02:17:44,520
Speaker 7: This is going to be them signing quote unquote voluntary

2549
02:17:44,600 --> 02:17:47,440
Speaker 7: deportation paperwork where very clear is not voluntary when they're

2550
02:17:47,440 --> 02:17:50,320
Speaker 7: held against their will and pressure to do it. But

2551
02:17:50,760 --> 02:17:53,440
Speaker 7: that's what you'll hear it called quote. Many of the

2552
02:17:53,480 --> 02:17:56,440
Speaker 7: Iranian detainees did not consent to meet with the Iranian

2553
02:17:56,520 --> 02:17:59,760
Speaker 7: Intersection officials, but were required to do so by ice.

2554
02:18:00,480 --> 02:18:04,400
Speaker 7: According to Iranian detainees who met with an Iranian Intersection official,

2555
02:18:04,720 --> 02:18:08,200
Speaker 7: the official had knowledge of their immigration cases, including the

2556
02:18:08,280 --> 02:18:12,600
Speaker 7: details of their asylum applications. These nonconsensual meetings with the

2557
02:18:12,640 --> 02:18:15,880
Speaker 7: Interestsection officials solidify the detainee's belief that they have been

2558
02:18:15,959 --> 02:18:19,800
Speaker 7: identified to the very same repressive government that they had fled.

2559
02:18:20,640 --> 02:18:23,959
Speaker 7: The United States government allowed the Iranian government to select

2560
02:18:24,080 --> 02:18:28,240
Speaker 7: the Iranians deported to Iran. According to this complaint, some

2561
02:18:28,440 --> 02:18:31,959
Speaker 7: of those people were then interrogated by an intelligent section

2562
02:18:32,200 --> 02:18:36,000
Speaker 7: of the IRGC on their rival in Iran. Some of

2563
02:18:36,120 --> 02:18:39,320
Speaker 7: these people had detailed on their application as they must

2564
02:18:39,640 --> 02:18:42,120
Speaker 7: to make a good asylum application right, that they had

2565
02:18:42,200 --> 02:18:46,360
Speaker 7: participated in the twenty twenty two jan Azadi movement Woman

2566
02:18:46,760 --> 02:18:51,560
Speaker 7: Life Freedom. There's a Kurdish slogan of the Kurdish Freedom

2567
02:18:51,600 --> 02:18:56,080
Speaker 7: movement that was used by pro democracy protesters in Iran

2568
02:18:56,480 --> 02:19:02,240
Speaker 7: after the murder of Jinamini by Iraan police. This sparked

2569
02:19:02,240 --> 02:19:04,280
Speaker 7: a whole movement. I'm sure you could find a great

2570
02:19:04,320 --> 02:19:06,440
Speaker 7: deal of good writing on that movement. It was very

2571
02:19:06,480 --> 02:19:09,760
Speaker 7: well covered. I have met women who took part in

2572
02:19:09,879 --> 02:19:11,920
Speaker 7: that movement. As I said before, you can hear some

2573
02:19:12,040 --> 02:19:15,680
Speaker 7: of them in some of my podcasts. They tried with

2574
02:19:16,200 --> 02:19:19,160
Speaker 7: every fiber of their being to make it round better.

2575
02:19:20,040 --> 02:19:23,080
Speaker 7: They saw their friends die to try and make it

2576
02:19:23,200 --> 02:19:26,440
Speaker 7: round better, and then they fled because it was made

2577
02:19:26,560 --> 02:19:28,520
Speaker 7: very clear to them that the state was willing to

2578
02:19:28,600 --> 02:19:32,039
Speaker 7: fill the streets with blood before it changed. Now those

2579
02:19:32,120 --> 02:19:35,160
Speaker 7: people are obviously afraid of telling the truth on their

2580
02:19:35,200 --> 02:19:39,640
Speaker 7: asylum applications or even to their lawyers, especially while they're

2581
02:19:39,680 --> 02:19:43,640
Speaker 7: in detention, because they now know that that information could

2582
02:19:43,640 --> 02:19:46,280
Speaker 7: be delivered directly into the hands of the Iranian government.

2583
02:19:46,560 --> 02:19:48,600
Speaker 7: They may have sat in their applications. I was part

2584
02:19:48,640 --> 02:19:51,400
Speaker 7: of this movement because I'm opposed to the government, and

2585
02:19:51,520 --> 02:19:55,240
Speaker 7: now that information is being delivered to the government. They

2586
02:19:55,720 --> 02:19:58,040
Speaker 7: came here to experience some of the freedoms that their

2587
02:19:58,080 --> 02:20:01,920
Speaker 7: friends died for dead. They were hand delivered to the

2588
02:20:02,000 --> 02:20:04,520
Speaker 7: regime that they had fled from the US did not

2589
02:20:04,640 --> 02:20:08,520
Speaker 7: ask for any protections or guarantees for their safety. At

2590
02:20:08,520 --> 02:20:11,360
Speaker 7: the very same time, the USA was using the rights

2591
02:20:11,400 --> 02:20:14,320
Speaker 7: Iranian people as a pretext for its war in era.

2592
02:20:14,920 --> 02:20:18,040
Speaker 7: It did this as it was depriving people of those

2593
02:20:18,280 --> 02:20:22,560
Speaker 7: very same rights back here. This is disgusting. I will

2594
02:20:23,480 --> 02:20:26,200
Speaker 7: link to the complaint in the sourceage you'd like to

2595
02:20:26,240 --> 02:20:28,600
Speaker 7: read it yourself. I'm going to keep an eye on

2596
02:20:28,640 --> 02:20:32,840
Speaker 7: this one. Even amongst the horrors of the second Trump administration,

2597
02:20:33,000 --> 02:20:35,120
Speaker 7: this is just particularly apparent.

2598
02:20:36,080 --> 02:20:38,400
Speaker 8: We'll go on a break and then return for one

2599
02:20:38,480 --> 02:20:39,600
Speaker 8: more batch of news.

2600
02:20:49,920 --> 02:20:50,680
Speaker 2: We are back.

2601
02:20:51,640 --> 02:20:55,560
Speaker 8: Next up two shootings by ice, which have both occurred

2602
02:20:55,720 --> 02:20:59,800
Speaker 8: just this last week, exactly half a year after the

2603
02:21:00,040 --> 02:21:02,520
Speaker 8: shooting of Renee Good Robert.

2604
02:21:03,400 --> 02:21:09,560
Speaker 2: Video captured Wednesday morning in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania showed Ice attempting

2605
02:21:09,640 --> 02:21:15,520
Speaker 2: to arrest an undocumented immigrant from Mexico named Clemente Laura Hernandez.

2606
02:21:16,160 --> 02:21:19,200
Speaker 2: There's video of this incident. You can see like a

2607
02:21:19,280 --> 02:21:22,520
Speaker 2: black car with flashing lights, like an unmarked police car

2608
02:21:23,040 --> 02:21:26,720
Speaker 2: blocking like a white suv. Agents get out of the

2609
02:21:26,800 --> 02:21:29,280
Speaker 2: car and rush the suv and again they just kind

2610
02:21:29,320 --> 02:21:31,520
Speaker 2: of look like guys with guns in a moment, and

2611
02:21:31,600 --> 02:21:33,440
Speaker 2: one of them starts screaming that he's going to shatter

2612
02:21:33,520 --> 02:21:36,800
Speaker 2: the window and yelling at the driver. At that point,

2613
02:21:36,879 --> 02:21:40,680
Speaker 2: the driver pulls away in a panic. They hit the black,

2614
02:21:41,040 --> 02:21:44,440
Speaker 2: unmarked car that had been blocking them. They speed off,

2615
02:21:44,920 --> 02:21:47,080
Speaker 2: the fucking Ice points out there, going wrong way down

2616
02:21:47,120 --> 02:21:50,840
Speaker 2: a one way street, and they hit another uninvolved civilian

2617
02:21:50,920 --> 02:21:52,520
Speaker 2: vehicle and it was like, yeah, they were panicked because

2618
02:21:52,840 --> 02:21:55,920
Speaker 2: an unmarked car drove up and gunman ran out and

2619
02:21:56,040 --> 02:21:58,000
Speaker 2: started surrounding and screaming at them.

2620
02:21:58,320 --> 02:21:59,119
Speaker 6: It scared them.

2621
02:21:59,200 --> 02:22:01,360
Speaker 2: That's the kind of shit that happens in countries where

2622
02:22:01,360 --> 02:22:03,920
Speaker 2: the cartels are in charge of everything, if you pretend

2623
02:22:04,000 --> 02:22:06,240
Speaker 2: that like Ice is in any meaningful way different from

2624
02:22:06,240 --> 02:22:09,760
Speaker 2: a cartellary gang. As of us recording this, this person

2625
02:22:09,800 --> 02:22:12,560
Speaker 2: has not been taken into custody. I hope they stay

2626
02:22:12,640 --> 02:22:18,760
Speaker 2: that way. Also earlier this week in Houston, Texas, Lorenzo

2627
02:22:18,879 --> 02:22:22,880
Speaker 2: Salgado Arajo, who is fifty two years old, was driving

2628
02:22:23,040 --> 02:22:25,920
Speaker 2: in the East End when the same basic thing happened.

2629
02:22:26,040 --> 02:22:29,920
Speaker 2: Unmarked cars surround him, guys with guns get out. He

2630
02:22:30,080 --> 02:22:34,720
Speaker 2: gets really scared and he drives off and he gets shot.

2631
02:22:34,840 --> 02:22:37,920
Speaker 2: As he's driving away. ICE accused him of having weaponized

2632
02:22:38,000 --> 02:22:41,760
Speaker 2: the vehicle. He was taken to the hospital where he died.

2633
02:22:42,120 --> 02:22:45,400
Speaker 2: Salgado a Rajo had no criminal record, he had been

2634
02:22:45,560 --> 02:22:48,760
Speaker 2: in the country for more than thirty years. He was

2635
02:22:48,800 --> 02:22:52,120
Speaker 2: in a car with several people, including his brother. There's

2636
02:22:52,160 --> 02:22:55,600
Speaker 2: no evidence whatsoever of any kind of violence in his past.

2637
02:22:55,840 --> 02:22:57,680
Speaker 2: There's no evidence that he wanted to hurt anyone. There's

2638
02:22:57,680 --> 02:23:00,560
Speaker 2: no evidence that he was doing anything but being terrified

2639
02:23:00,680 --> 02:23:05,520
Speaker 2: by unmarked, armed men surrounding him. His son has come

2640
02:23:05,560 --> 02:23:07,360
Speaker 2: out and said that if he knew they were ICE,

2641
02:23:07,440 --> 02:23:10,200
Speaker 2: he certainly would have stopped and complied. He had no

2642
02:23:10,400 --> 02:23:14,320
Speaker 2: idea what was happening, which again seems very credible to me.

2643
02:23:14,760 --> 02:23:18,400
Speaker 2: There's already been a cavalcade of people coming out to

2644
02:23:18,800 --> 02:23:23,080
Speaker 2: demand an independent and impartial investigation into what happened, including

2645
02:23:23,200 --> 02:23:27,040
Speaker 2: US Representative Sylvia Garcia, who's a Democrat from Texas, and

2646
02:23:27,240 --> 02:23:31,400
Speaker 2: obviously his son and Alejandra Salinas, a Houston City council manager,

2647
02:23:31,440 --> 02:23:34,120
Speaker 2: also called for an immediate and partial investigation. I don't

2648
02:23:34,160 --> 02:23:37,880
Speaker 2: know what good I think that's going to do. Like, realistically,

2649
02:23:38,360 --> 02:23:41,119
Speaker 2: for one thing, no law enforcement entity could be trusted

2650
02:23:41,120 --> 02:23:43,879
Speaker 2: to conduct an independent and partial investigation of ice period,

2651
02:23:44,200 --> 02:23:47,840
Speaker 2: especially right now. For another, there's literally no way to

2652
02:23:48,120 --> 02:23:50,640
Speaker 2: guarantee that they will be held to account even if

2653
02:23:50,959 --> 02:23:53,600
Speaker 2: the evidence, and I think it suggests that they were

2654
02:23:53,680 --> 02:23:55,960
Speaker 2: acting entirely wrongly and murdered a man like I don't

2655
02:23:55,959 --> 02:23:58,000
Speaker 2: believe anything's going to happen to this guy at this point.

2656
02:23:58,160 --> 02:24:02,080
Speaker 2: So I guess I support the idea of an independent

2657
02:24:02,120 --> 02:24:04,600
Speaker 2: and impartial investigation. I just don't think that's going to

2658
02:24:04,840 --> 02:24:06,280
Speaker 2: get us anywhere yet.

2659
02:24:06,480 --> 02:24:08,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, I think I think if we want

2660
02:24:08,160 --> 02:24:11,520
Speaker 9: an actual independence, like impartial investigation, it's going to have

2661
02:24:11,600 --> 02:24:14,280
Speaker 9: to happen after this. This administration regime is out of power,

2662
02:24:14,959 --> 02:24:17,360
Speaker 9: and that's the thing that can be done, right, But

2663
02:24:17,640 --> 02:24:19,600
Speaker 9: it's going to just take a bunch of time until

2664
02:24:19,800 --> 02:24:22,520
Speaker 9: these people don't have control of all of the state

2665
02:24:22,560 --> 02:24:25,880
Speaker 9: security services. And in the meantime, they're just going to

2666
02:24:25,959 --> 02:24:29,040
Speaker 9: keep doing the same shooting over and over again. There's

2667
02:24:29,080 --> 02:24:32,800
Speaker 9: been growing protests in Houston these past few days. This

2668
02:24:32,959 --> 02:24:36,440
Speaker 9: is some audio recorded Tuesday published by Reuters.

2669
02:24:36,720 --> 02:24:39,879
Speaker 10: People are here to work, Families are dying, people are dying,

2670
02:24:40,040 --> 02:24:42,440
Speaker 10: but are doing murdering innocent Mexican people.

2671
02:24:42,800 --> 02:24:43,640
Speaker 9: They come to work.

2672
02:24:44,160 --> 02:24:45,879
Speaker 4: They come here to work, So what if they don't

2673
02:24:45,920 --> 02:24:53,080
Speaker 4: got papers? So what they're welcome?

2674
02:24:53,240 --> 02:24:57,360
Speaker 10: Yeah, Trump did this to us. What happened to taking

2675
02:24:57,400 --> 02:24:59,960
Speaker 10: the murderers out? What happened to take in the rapist own?

2676
02:25:00,240 --> 02:25:03,320
Speaker 10: What happened to taking the drug dealers down? Not innocent people?

2677
02:25:03,879 --> 02:25:06,880
Speaker 10: That's not what you said, President Trump. You didn't say that.

2678
02:25:07,400 --> 02:25:11,040
Speaker 8: Since then, the protests have only grown. On Wednesday evening,

2679
02:25:11,240 --> 02:25:14,920
Speaker 8: hundreds of people marched in Magnolia Park on the street

2680
02:25:15,080 --> 02:25:20,440
Speaker 8: where Lorenzo Salgado O Rajo was shot by ice four

2681
02:25:20,959 --> 02:25:27,920
Speaker 8: our last segment, Let's talk about America two fifty. So

2682
02:25:29,000 --> 02:25:31,720
Speaker 8: this past weekend marked the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary

2683
02:25:31,800 --> 02:25:35,840
Speaker 8: of the United States, and things went off without a hitch.

2684
02:25:36,040 --> 02:25:39,560
Speaker 8: I heard the Great American State Fair was lots of fun,

2685
02:25:40,160 --> 02:25:44,280
Speaker 8: that it was totally packed, that no parts of any

2686
02:25:44,360 --> 02:25:48,960
Speaker 8: stages on nearly killed dancers as they were setting up

2687
02:25:49,040 --> 02:25:52,920
Speaker 8: the event, That there was no severe weather events that

2688
02:25:53,120 --> 02:25:53,800
Speaker 8: disrupted it.

2689
02:25:54,000 --> 02:25:55,360
Speaker 2: I heard it was fun.

2690
02:25:56,480 --> 02:25:59,840
Speaker 8: And adding to the fun was President Trump, who spent

2691
02:26:00,240 --> 02:26:03,080
Speaker 8: much of the fourth of July weekend talking about the

2692
02:26:03,240 --> 02:26:06,960
Speaker 8: growing threat of communism and the need to pass the

2693
02:26:07,200 --> 02:26:11,360
Speaker 8: Save America Act. Following the Supreme Court's ruling in support

2694
02:26:11,600 --> 02:26:16,600
Speaker 8: of counting mail in ballots. In Trump's July fourth speech

2695
02:26:16,640 --> 02:26:20,720
Speaker 8: commemorating the historic occasion of America's two hundred and fiftieth birthday,

2696
02:26:21,440 --> 02:26:24,840
Speaker 8: the President said that to keep America great, we must

2697
02:26:25,000 --> 02:26:29,560
Speaker 8: pass the Save America Act, the troubled voter restriction bill

2698
02:26:29,640 --> 02:26:33,840
Speaker 8: that has failed to pass Congress. Quote, all voters must

2699
02:26:33,920 --> 02:26:37,720
Speaker 8: provide a little thing called proof of citizenship. There will

2700
02:26:37,760 --> 02:26:42,320
Speaker 8: be no mail in ballots except for illness, disability, military deployment,

2701
02:26:42,480 --> 02:26:46,359
Speaker 8: or travel. And you won't have cheating on the elections anymore.

2702
02:26:46,560 --> 02:26:47,560
Speaker 6: It's very simple.

2703
02:26:47,959 --> 02:26:53,680
Speaker 8: Unquote. Speaker Johnson has indicated his plan to pass another

2704
02:26:53,840 --> 02:26:59,640
Speaker 8: version of the Save Act through reconciliation. The bill's repeatedly

2705
02:27:00,080 --> 02:27:02,840
Speaker 8: installed in the Senate, and that has bolstered a lot

2706
02:27:02,879 --> 02:27:06,280
Speaker 8: of Trump's frustrations these past few months. Now, following the

2707
02:27:06,280 --> 02:27:09,960
Speaker 8: Supreme Court ruling, it appears that Republicans will take another

2708
02:27:10,040 --> 02:27:13,960
Speaker 8: crack at it. But Trump also spent much of the

2709
02:27:14,200 --> 02:27:20,280
Speaker 8: America two fifty address railing against communism. Quote, America will

2710
02:27:20,360 --> 02:27:23,640
Speaker 8: never be a communist country. It's like a cancer. You

2711
02:27:23,760 --> 02:27:25,480
Speaker 8: got to cut it out, and you got to cut

2712
02:27:25,560 --> 02:27:29,720
Speaker 8: it out fast. The communist system is the opposite of

2713
02:27:29,879 --> 02:27:33,360
Speaker 8: the American system, and the communist system has never worked.

2714
02:27:34,440 --> 02:27:38,000
Speaker 8: Our warriors did not fight communism on battlefields across the world,

2715
02:27:38,400 --> 02:27:42,160
Speaker 8: only to have that menace rear its ugly head right

2716
02:27:42,400 --> 02:27:48,440
Speaker 8: back here in America. Unquote real, real nineteen fifties style

2717
02:27:48,920 --> 02:27:56,560
Speaker 8: reactions to seven social Democrats getting elected. But I think

2718
02:27:56,680 --> 02:28:00,400
Speaker 8: that the fact that how scared he is and people,

2719
02:28:00,440 --> 02:28:02,600
Speaker 8: including on the Democratic Party side, and you know, there's

2720
02:28:02,640 --> 02:28:05,480
Speaker 8: been a wave of articles from the Atlantic really scared

2721
02:28:05,520 --> 02:28:08,720
Speaker 8: of the more kind of social democratic, democratic socialist direction

2722
02:28:08,800 --> 02:28:12,039
Speaker 8: that the party's been going, really frightened. In fact, I think,

2723
02:28:12,200 --> 02:28:15,320
Speaker 8: like a few days ago, Trump even said the words

2724
02:28:15,360 --> 02:28:18,520
Speaker 8: as social democrat and said they're just communists. But the

2725
02:28:18,600 --> 02:28:21,720
Speaker 8: fact that Trump had to learn what social democrat is

2726
02:28:22,280 --> 02:28:25,160
Speaker 8: is a really interesting indicator of where we are at

2727
02:28:25,200 --> 02:28:25,880
Speaker 8: as a country.

2728
02:28:26,280 --> 02:28:26,520
Speaker 4: M H.

2729
02:28:27,840 --> 02:28:30,600
Speaker 8: On the eve of July fourth, Trump gave another speech

2730
02:28:30,720 --> 02:28:34,400
Speaker 8: at Mount Rushmore after speaking to the AI ghost of

2731
02:28:35,480 --> 02:28:40,760
Speaker 8: Roseveldt God. And during this Mount Rushmore speech, he spoke

2732
02:28:40,840 --> 02:28:44,160
Speaker 8: at length about how communism is a quote moral threat

2733
02:28:44,280 --> 02:28:47,320
Speaker 8: to American liberty. It is the greatest threat to our country,

2734
02:28:47,720 --> 02:28:51,480
Speaker 8: including World War One, World War two, Pearl Harbor or

2735
02:28:51,600 --> 02:28:52,640
Speaker 8: even nine to eleven.

2736
02:28:53,640 --> 02:28:55,720
Speaker 2: World War One is simply not a threat to our country.

2737
02:28:56,040 --> 02:28:58,199
Speaker 2: Not in any way, shape or form was our country

2738
02:28:58,240 --> 02:29:01,040
Speaker 2: threatened at any point in World War Onebviously, some Americans

2739
02:29:01,080 --> 02:29:03,440
Speaker 2: were killed as a result of Germany attacking shipping, but

2740
02:29:03,560 --> 02:29:04,879
Speaker 2: in no way were we in danger.

2741
02:29:06,160 --> 02:29:09,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like, does she understand that Pearl Harvard was part

2742
02:29:09,520 --> 02:29:10,119
Speaker 9: of World War two?

2743
02:29:10,240 --> 02:29:10,280
Speaker 7: Like?

2744
02:29:10,320 --> 02:29:13,640
Speaker 2: Does he like get that he was just shooting buzzwords off?

2745
02:29:13,800 --> 02:29:14,840
Speaker 2: I think that's all that was.

2746
02:29:15,200 --> 02:29:19,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, incredible guide to control the largest nuclear weapons arsenal

2747
02:29:19,480 --> 02:29:20,120
Speaker 9: in human history.

2748
02:29:22,320 --> 02:29:26,440
Speaker 8: Trump also called communism the enemy of the Constitution, the

2749
02:29:26,640 --> 02:29:31,840
Speaker 8: enemy of July fourth, seventeen seventy six. Quote, on the

2750
02:29:32,000 --> 02:29:35,120
Speaker 8: eve of this two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of American heritage,

2751
02:29:35,280 --> 02:29:38,440
Speaker 8: we resolve and swear for all to hear that the

2752
02:29:38,520 --> 02:29:42,720
Speaker 8: citizens of the United States of America will vanquish communism quickly.

2753
02:29:43,680 --> 02:29:47,240
Speaker 8: President Trump also had this banger line, which is the

2754
02:29:47,280 --> 02:29:49,920
Speaker 8: only clip I actually want to play of this speech.

2755
02:29:50,320 --> 02:29:54,320
Speaker 5: Boy, you can be loyal to Carl Box, or you

2756
02:29:54,440 --> 02:29:58,439
Speaker 5: can be loyal to America. You can be a communist,

2757
02:29:58,560 --> 02:30:01,240
Speaker 5: or you can be a patriot. You cannot be both.

2758
02:30:01,760 --> 02:30:06,080
Speaker 11: As for those who pedal Marxist lies about our heritage,

2759
02:30:06,520 --> 02:30:10,960
Speaker 11: tell our children that we live on stolen land, or

2760
02:30:11,080 --> 02:30:12,840
Speaker 11: that our heroes were oppressors.

2761
02:30:13,600 --> 02:30:17,160
Speaker 5: They're doing something much worse than slandering our past. They

2762
02:30:17,200 --> 02:30:20,880
Speaker 5: are slandering and attacking our future. Not going to let

2763
02:30:20,920 --> 02:30:21,440
Speaker 5: that happen.

2764
02:30:22,080 --> 02:30:24,960
Speaker 8: You can be loyal to Karl Marx, You can be

2765
02:30:25,120 --> 02:30:30,240
Speaker 8: loyal to America. So true, So true, President Donald Trump.

2766
02:30:31,879 --> 02:30:35,400
Speaker 8: It's just really stunning thinking about this is how the

2767
02:30:35,520 --> 02:30:39,119
Speaker 8: President of the United States is spending the two hundred

2768
02:30:39,120 --> 02:30:42,800
Speaker 8: and fiftieth anniversary of the country that he thinks it

2769
02:30:42,959 --> 02:30:47,240
Speaker 8: is important to start bringing this stuff up. I just

2770
02:30:47,320 --> 02:30:52,120
Speaker 8: thought that was a little interesting tidbit that happened this weekend. Anyway,

2771
02:30:52,800 --> 02:30:55,080
Speaker 8: I think that is all we have for news this week.

2772
02:30:55,680 --> 02:30:58,200
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I guess it's been. It hasn't been a

2773
02:30:58,240 --> 02:31:00,680
Speaker 2: short news week, but you know, we don't always have

2774
02:31:00,760 --> 02:31:02,480
Speaker 2: to talk for an hour and twenty minutes about the

2775
02:31:02,480 --> 02:31:04,840
Speaker 2: shit that's happening. You now kind of know what's happening.

2776
02:31:04,959 --> 02:31:08,120
Speaker 8: No, this is just a fifty five to one hour

2777
02:31:08,200 --> 02:31:10,640
Speaker 8: and three minutes with James Segment said, yeah, a short

2778
02:31:10,720 --> 02:31:11,400
Speaker 8: news week.

2779
02:31:11,600 --> 02:31:14,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, a short news week. All right, go go with

2780
02:31:14,160 --> 02:31:15,480
Speaker 2: christ my friends, we.

2781
02:31:15,600 --> 02:31:16,320
Speaker 8: Reported the news.

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Speaker 6: We reported the news.

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Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week

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Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

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Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

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Speaker 1: now find sources for It Could Happen Here, listed directly

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Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.