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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Shot nazis your

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Speaker 1: weekly podcast that reminds you that maybe your grandfather was

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Speaker 1: cooler than you fought, or if you're one of our

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Speaker 1: German listeners, he's probably about as uncol as you already.

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Speaker 2: Know, eyeballing grandpa across the table.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy and with me today

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Speaker 1: is the Carl Casarda. Are you hey?

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Speaker 2: It's super great to be back. It's always a joy

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Speaker 2: to be on the show and see you and hang

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Speaker 2: out and talk about really cool topics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And then Sophie is here too, our producer, Hi, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: him Magpie. That's it. There's no one else to credit.

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Speaker 1: I certainly wouldn't credit Ian, who spends hours turning all

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Speaker 1: of this into everyone wants to say. Hi Ian, Hi Ian,

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Speaker 1: Hi Ian Hi Ian. And on women did our theme music?

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Speaker 1: This is part three of four on a series about

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Speaker 1: snipers in World War Two. But unlike every other time

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Speaker 1: I've done multi part series, if you just showed up

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Speaker 1: to this episode to hear about the deadliest woman in

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Speaker 1: military history, you're actually fine. Parts one and two are

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Speaker 1: great and they're worth listening to. And they set up

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Speaker 1: a lot of the context, and but this one's sort

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Speaker 1: of a different one. It's kind of like somewhere between

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Speaker 1: a new episode and a continuation of an episode. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure everyone listening is really concerned about the way that

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Speaker 1: we formulate numbering in our episodes. They probably spend as

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Speaker 1: much time thinking about it as I do.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like knowing about World War Two but

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Speaker 2: not knowing about World War One. You can kind of

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Speaker 2: do that, but it's weird.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know as much about World War One.

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Speaker 1: I'm still learning as constantly, Like I think that the

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Speaker 1: main thing that stuck with me. I listened to the

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Speaker 1: whole some whole really long history podcast about World War One,

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Speaker 1: and the main thing I remember is people running at

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Speaker 1: machine gun nests by the thousands and how horrible was

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Speaker 1: That's the main thing I remember.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a real lesson in mechanization and modernization,

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Speaker 2: wasn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But last week we talked about Simo, the Finn

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Speaker 1: who hid in the snow, potentially the deadliest sniper in history.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of people sort of vying for that spot,

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Speaker 1: but not in a fun Highlander way, just like historians,

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Speaker 1: you know, although actually a lot of people were vite.

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Speaker 1: Thirty six people vied with the person we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about today. This week, we're gonna talk about someone

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Speaker 1: who I think is even cooler, another person who answered

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Speaker 1: the call to stop an invading authoritarian force, Ludmilla Pavlchenko.

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Speaker 1: You heard Ludmilla.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a female sniper in the Soviet Union that let's say,

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Speaker 2: how do we use the parlance, racked up quite the

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Speaker 2: body count.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And it's funny because people every now and

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Speaker 1: then you can kind of tell, like, ah, you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: they didn't kill near She didn't kill nearly as many

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Speaker 1: people as like these other men or whatever. She killed

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Speaker 1: way more people than any American ever has well as

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Speaker 1: a sniper, Americans drop some nukes, but.

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Speaker 2: And firebombs and other things.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, yeah, okay from a sniper point of view.

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Speaker 1: So she's credited as the most successful woman sniper in history,

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Speaker 1: the deadliest woman in military history. She single handedly brought

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Speaker 1: down three hundred and nine Nazis. As the most commonly

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Speaker 1: cited count, which was the American who's super famous, Chris Kyle.

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Speaker 1: He's at like one hundred and fifty or something. I

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Speaker 1: don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know the number.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember. I didn't actually watch American Sniper. It

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Speaker 1: didn't seem like.

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Speaker 2: I doubt that movie has a lot to do with reality.

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Speaker 2: But that's a different topic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough.

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Speaker 2: Neither is Chris Kyle's book. But ooh, that's another topic.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, neither does the lady who are talking about

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Speaker 1: today's book, to be honest, okay, fair propaganda, it's a

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Speaker 1: thing that governments do. That's our that's our theme song.

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Speaker 1: So all the while, she was also fighting against the

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Speaker 1: sexism of the Soviet military, which, to be clear, was

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Speaker 1: not as bad as the sexism as any other military

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Speaker 1: because women were allowed in it, and they were allowed

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Speaker 1: to fight. They just had to. It was hard for

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Speaker 1: them to do. And she also you know that she

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Speaker 1: might have boned the first Lady of the United States,

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Speaker 1: Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Speaker 2: No, but I'm extremely curious talking about bodycounts.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna start with it. We'll get to that part.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not even it's actually in today's it's not

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Speaker 1: even in Wednesdays, so that you're welcome everyone. We will

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Speaker 1: start with the history of women fighting in the military

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Speaker 1: in Russia, which predates the Russian Revolution. This part surprised me,

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Speaker 1: and also this includes women who fought in the military

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Speaker 1: against the revolution. The Russian Revolution briefly upended traditional conservative culture,

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Speaker 1: although Stalin reinforced you know, brought it all back or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But even traditional conservative Slavic culture, as least according to

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Speaker 1: some of the sources I read, has a different set

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Speaker 1: of roles available to women than in cultures further west.

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Speaker 1: In the Slavic household, a woman's duties might include chopping wood,

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Speaker 1: driving tractors, and fighting whatever is necessary to take care

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Speaker 1: of the family. That can still be women's work, even

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Speaker 1: in a like patriarchal situation in which the woman is

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Speaker 1: like subject to the rules of the household and stuff.

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Speaker 1: You ever seen that Instagram video by Meg Boggs. She's

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Speaker 1: a Mexican woman who's a fitness influencer. She puts on

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Speaker 1: a Russian accent, and she does push ups with like weights,

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Speaker 1: and she's a large woman, and she says, I can't

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Speaker 1: do a Russian accent and save my life. She says,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be strong like man who looks pretty.

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Speaker 1: I want to be strong like bitch that fights bears

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Speaker 1: in the forest.

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Speaker 2: I think a bear would be in somewhere. Yeah, it's Russia.

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Speaker 2: It's bears. No, I actually haven't seen that, but I

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Speaker 2: can totally get the vibe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's that's kind of it. I h

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Speaker 1: and it fucking rules. And it's not actually a Russian

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Speaker 1: woman's a Mexican woman, which also is completely fine by me.

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Speaker 1: But that's the traditional feminine values that we're talking about

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Speaker 1: that are coming into play. This isn't a paint slavic

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Speaker 1: culture as like gender equal. It's just different, and it's

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Speaker 1: different in a way that seems to have made it

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Speaker 1: easier for women to make their ways to the front lines.

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Speaker 1: Mostly they did this in partisan units during World War Two,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that a little bit later, but

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Speaker 1: I also did it in the military itself. Have you

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Speaker 1: heard of the women's battalions the uh what is this

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Speaker 1: one called the like Women's Battalion of Death or something

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Speaker 1: like that. I've curious.

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Speaker 2: It's like this like one of the more maybe not

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Speaker 2: a ground fighter, but like one of the most amazing

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Speaker 2: instances for a topic for another day, or like the

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Speaker 2: night witches that were the pilots for example.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to get to them. Oh cool, I'm

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Speaker 1: this is this is going to be a ADHD whole

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Speaker 1: of an episode. I'm really excited about it. One day

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Speaker 1: we're going to do a proper Russian Revolution episode. This

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Speaker 1: is not that day. But in nineteen seventeen, year of

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Speaker 1: the Russian Revolution, come out to actually two different revolutions.

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Speaker 1: You have the February Revolution, which actually happened in March,

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Speaker 1: but they have a different calendar, so to them, it

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Speaker 1: happened in February. To the rest of the world happened

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Speaker 1: in March, and you wind up with something called the

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Speaker 1: Provisional Government, and morale for staying in World War One

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Speaker 1: was dropping fast with the ending of this artum or whatever.

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Speaker 1: The provisional Government, which was not necessarily radical, was like,

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Speaker 1: what the fuck do we do? One woman had an idea.

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Speaker 1: Her name was Maria butch Cervera. She was already a soldier.

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Speaker 1: She'd fought like hell to get to fight with the men,

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Speaker 1: and eventually the way she'd eventually been able to fight

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Speaker 1: with the men in World War One is a commander

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Speaker 1: helped her write a personal telegram Desar Nicholas the Second

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Speaker 1: for permission to go fight the front. She started off

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Speaker 1: as a but soon she was a corporal in charge

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Speaker 1: of eleven men, and she is the first Russian woman

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Speaker 1: to lead troops in the formal military. You want to

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Speaker 1: guess when the US pulled off having a woman lead

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Speaker 1: troops in the formal military.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know, But since you're asking that question

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Speaker 2: and thinking of how things are, I'm going to say

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Speaker 2: I might be off. But let's go with two thousand

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Speaker 2: and five.

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Speaker 1: You actually it was a very progressive country. Is nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty nine when.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I underestimated us a little bit?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Linda Bray commanded US troops while invading Panama. Which

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Speaker 1: is the funny thing is whenever you're like, like girl power, go.

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Speaker 2: Invade a diversity, win for operation just because.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So February Revolution nineteen seventeen, troops are losing morale,

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Speaker 1: Maria is like, let's make all women military formations. So

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Speaker 1: they formed sixteen all women military formations with a total

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Speaker 1: of about five thousand fighters. This is a couple interesting points. First,

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Speaker 1: several have names like first Russian Women's Battalion of Death,

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Speaker 1: which is really fucking metal and it just needs to

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Speaker 1: be acknowledged. This one the first women's Russian Russian Women's

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Speaker 1: Battalion of Death was run by Maria herself, who was

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Speaker 1: very strict and who kept getting wounded in battle and

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Speaker 1: then kept going back to the front lines. Anyway, I'd

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Speaker 1: always figured it was the Communists who first put women

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Speaker 1: into uniform in Russia, Right that that seems like the

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Speaker 1: kind of thing the Communists would be more likely to do, Right,

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Speaker 1: But it comes before that, And an all women's unit

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Speaker 1: actually protected the Winter Palace, trying and failing to stop

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Speaker 1: the Red Army in the October Revolution later that year.

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Speaker 1: So they were a counter revolutionary force by whatever called standards,

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Speaker 1: and the Bolsheviks champions of women's liberty. The first thing

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Speaker 1: they did not the first thing, within like a month

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Speaker 1: or so of like taking power, they dissolved all the

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Speaker 1: women's units. To be fair, I don't know whether this

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Speaker 1: is they were like women shouldn't fight, or whether this

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Speaker 1: was like all the women are shooting at us. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure which. Usually Again, I I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be like, oh, I don't know about the October Revolution.

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Speaker 1: I know a decent bit about the Russian Revolution, but

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Speaker 1: I haven't deep dived it the way that I'm intending to.

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Speaker 1: But in general, it is referred to as when the

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Speaker 1: Bolsheviks took power, and this is sort of true. In

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Speaker 1: the October Revolution. It was actually a pluralistic assortment of

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Speaker 1: left revolutionaries, which included the anarchists who did a lot

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Speaker 1: of the most dangerous work. As always, you had the Mensheviks,

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Speaker 1: and you had the srs, who are like a grarian socialists,

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Speaker 1: kind of the social democrats. This coalition later falls apart

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Speaker 1: when the Bolsheviks introduced the secret police, the Cheka, and

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Speaker 1: then start attacking their former allies, which is how you

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Speaker 1: end up with a you know how like the Russian

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Speaker 1: The Russian Civil War has like all the armies named

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Speaker 1: in colors. Have you heard this? I really like this

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Speaker 1: because it's so it makes some things kind of clear

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Speaker 1: in this weird way when you just name all of

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Speaker 1: these armies. Where you have the Red Army, you have

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Speaker 1: the White Army. You have the White Army as the capitalists.

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Speaker 1: It's not actually necessarily all capitalists, a lot of social democrats,

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Speaker 1: it's the people fighting against the revolution. You have the

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Speaker 1: Black Army, which are the anarchists which split off from

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Speaker 1: the Red Army. We'll talk about that. And then you

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Speaker 1: have the Green Army, which are kind of the brotherhood

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Speaker 1: without banners from the Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones

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Speaker 1: not a game, the show, which is a game in

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Speaker 1: the name. These are the peasants who are like, we

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Speaker 1: are sick of everyone showing up and just fucking taking

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Speaker 1: all of our stuff. The Bolsheviks are doing it, but

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Speaker 1: they're not capitalists. In fact, they're specifically anti capitalist. They're

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Speaker 1: sort of anarchistic and socialistic and they want to basically

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Speaker 1: self govern and so they go to war also against

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Speaker 1: the Bolsheviks and the capitalists. I want to know more

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Speaker 1: about them, but that's to come back to the women's

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Speaker 1: I've run across this a lot while researching the show

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Speaker 1: that women combatans and units are like cool, but they're

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Speaker 1: also kind of just used for propaganda purposes. Basically, they're

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Speaker 1: used to like shame men into fighting, Like even the

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Speaker 1: women are doing it. What the fuck is wrong with you?

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Speaker 1: Friend of the pod mother? Nope, what's that name? Is

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Speaker 1: not in the script? That lady, the Irish goth lady

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Speaker 1: who works with union miners, who has a magazine named

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Speaker 1: after her mother Jones. Yeah, mother Jones, Like she used

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Speaker 1: to do this shit. She would show up and be like, well,

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Speaker 1: come on, I'm fighting and I'm a woman, what's wrong

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Speaker 1: with you? Right? And it's like fine, right, but it

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Speaker 1: kind of makes me sad. It's like failing the revolutionary

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Speaker 1: Bechdel test, you know, when like women are only doing

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Speaker 1: this thing for men rather than doing it for their

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Speaker 1: own power and sake. Anyway, I have all these battalions,

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Speaker 1: they are largely under resourced, and they don't last too long,

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Speaker 1: even before the Bolsheviks take power and dissolve them. They

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Speaker 1: were often taken off the front lines and put like

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Speaker 1: guardian railroads or whatever, because a lot of it was

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Speaker 1: just propaganda. A lot of it was just like, sure,

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Speaker 1: we'll let you form these battalions in order to shame

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Speaker 1: men into going back to fight this ridiculous war. That

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Speaker 1: do you know what Russia was doing in World War One?

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Speaker 1: I actually don't. I only know about like France and

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Speaker 1: Germany and shit.

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Speaker 2: You mean actually in the combat in the war itself.

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Speaker 2: Like I mean when you.

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Speaker 1: Say that, why they were doing it? What was their

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Speaker 1: skin in the game in World War One?

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Speaker 2: It was not that different than World War Two, which

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Speaker 2: was the Germans were doing their thing and the Russians

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Speaker 2: had to combine against it. The Germans have always been

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Speaker 2: about fighting the Russians, and they ever were fighting on

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Speaker 2: the west. So the reason is they always wanted to

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Speaker 2: fight Russia, but there were these treaties in place that

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Speaker 2: prevented them from doing so without being invaded from the west.

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Speaker 2: So they would invade west to provide ground to protect

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Speaker 2: the German homeland while they went east, all right, which

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Speaker 2: is a weird, convoluted concept. But being stuck in the

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Speaker 2: middle got them kind of cornered between these what they

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Speaker 2: saw as two enemies. But Germany always saw Russia and

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Speaker 2: of course the Soviet Union as the ultimate enemy that

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Speaker 2: they really wanted to fight.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Europe is so weird. It is I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what to say that. Besides, that's just weird.

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Speaker 2: Before we move on, I want to loop back on one

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Speaker 2: thing real quick. I was thinking about something. There's a

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Speaker 2: gray space in terms of a woman led military operation,

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Speaker 2: which isn't exactly what you're describing. But in eighteen sixty three,

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Speaker 2: Harriet Tubman led the COMBA.

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Speaker 1: He fair, Yeah, totally, So that's it's not that is

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Speaker 1: a really good point.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't in the military, but she did lead a fight.

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Speaker 2: So that's like an interesting example in the middle, but

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Speaker 2: then eighteen sixty three and then what'd you say, nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine, so a long time between those two events.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that's actually a really good point point, and

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Speaker 1: the fact that she's sort of kept out of the

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Speaker 1: traditional military structure but absolutely led it, and women so

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Speaker 1: often were fighting in informal capacities, right and leading in

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Speaker 1: informal capacities. But then, oh, that's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: I really like rad Off for that because she deserves no.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So Maria the woman who got you know,

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Speaker 1: wrote a letter being like, hey, can I fight? And

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Speaker 1: then also can we form these battalions? Her story doesn't

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Speaker 1: end there. She's anti Bolsheviks, she's probably anti communist. Soon

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Speaker 1: she's allied with the White Army and the army that

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Speaker 1: is opposed to the Communists. That includes everything from the

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Speaker 1: far right to monarchists to republicans to social democrats, everyone

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Speaker 1: who's like not fuck the right army. She's captured by

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Speaker 1: the Bolsheviks, she escapes, she goes to the US. She

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Speaker 1: tries to rally the US and Britain to intervene in Russia.

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Speaker 1: This will be the one of two times that this

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Speaker 1: will come up in today's episodes, and then she'll go

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Speaker 1: back to Russia to fight with the White Army. She

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Speaker 1: tries to form a women's medical detachment, and then she's

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Speaker 1: caught and executed by the Bolsheviks. In nineteen twenty and

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Speaker 1: there's another woman fighter of note during the Russian Civil War,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not going to get too into her because

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Speaker 1: she's like basically my favorite person in history, and eventually

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do like ten episodes about her. It'll

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Speaker 1: just be like, twenty twenty four is the year of

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Speaker 1: Maria Niki Farova. But there's a woman named Mickey nor

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Speaker 1: Maria Niki Farova. Everyone is named Maria in this story,

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Speaker 1: and she's a Ukrainian anarchist who forms the Blackguards in

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Speaker 1: the summer of nineteen seventeen in Ukraine. The Blackguards soon

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Speaker 1: spread into Russia itself. They're run by the Moscow Federation

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Speaker 1: of Anarchist Groups. These weren't all women units, but the

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Speaker 1: very first one was led by a woman, and she

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Speaker 1: stayed a revolutionary leader throughout the war until she dies.

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Speaker 1: But spoiler alert for whenever I do an episode about her,

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Speaker 1: but this is a fairly elite unit, the Blackguards, in

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Speaker 1: a way that I didn't realize the first time I

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Speaker 1: read about it. A lot of anarchists were just in

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Speaker 1: a Red Guard. But to join the Blackguard you had

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Speaker 1: to be vouched for or by three different comrades, and

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Speaker 1: you had to be vouch for for reliability, responsibility, and

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Speaker 1: for ethical behavior. And so the vouching says it was

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Speaker 1: an elite army, but it was like an ideologically elite army.

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Speaker 1: Like you couldn't be a bandit. You could be a

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Speaker 1: Robin Hood style bandit, but you couldn't be a like

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Speaker 1: the kind of person who's going to take advantage of

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Speaker 1: power to hurt people. And I love the idea that

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Speaker 1: the like spec ops anarchist unit that is the like

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Speaker 1: thing that you have to like be really fucking good

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Speaker 1: at anyway. And they mostly are working as guerrilla detachments,

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Speaker 1: working in tandem with the Red Guards until the Red

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Speaker 1: Guards turn on them and then there's a whole thing.

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Speaker 1: And actually there's a Bastard's episode about not about Marine Iikuphroba,

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Speaker 1: but about Ukraine and the anarchist there and Makno and

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Speaker 1: all that stuff that I recommend people check out from

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. You wait, year that was

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Speaker 1: you known what was a Christmas one, so just look

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Speaker 1: for Christmas, so you're probably a The talking shit on

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Speaker 1: Bolsheviks is one of my favorite pastimes. And it's true

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Speaker 1: that they dissolve the women's units, but pretty much immediately

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Speaker 1: the USSR and the Bolsheviks legally mandated equality between women

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Speaker 1: and men, and like just in a sweeping women in

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Speaker 1: man are equal, there's no difference between them in the

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Speaker 1: eyes of the law, and then proceeded to not actually

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Speaker 1: follow the law and continued to discriminate against women. But

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Speaker 1: it it got shit started. The fact that you have

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Speaker 1: this de jura de jure djur is one of these

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Speaker 1: words I write all the time, but I don't say

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Speaker 1: out loud. Equality legal equality, but they needed de facto equality.

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Speaker 1: By nineteen eighteen, the USSR passed the Family Code, which

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Speaker 1: continued to push basically feminism. It separated marriage from religion,

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Speaker 1: It legitimized children from unmarried parents, and it extended the

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Speaker 1: right to divorce. In nineteen twenty, they legalized abortion. Stalin

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Speaker 1: would later reverse this because he wanted there to be

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Speaker 1: more Russians he could send into a meat grinder. He

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Speaker 1: also reversed the legalization of homosexuality. He also made bastards

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Speaker 1: into bastards again. He made divorce harder. He I don't

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Speaker 1: like Stalin very much.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean he really corrupted something that was on

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Speaker 2: a very positive track, right, I mean, that's besides all

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Speaker 2: of the other things that one could say about Stalin.

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Speaker 2: You see this when people talk about these movements now,

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Speaker 2: it's all corrupted with the overshadowing horrible presence of Stalin

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Speaker 2: and everything that came before him is lost in the

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Speaker 2: horrors that he actually committed, which really ruins any concept

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Speaker 2: around it, I know.

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Speaker 1: And it's like frustrating because like I want to have

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Speaker 1: conversations about why I disagree with the Bolsheviks, but I

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Speaker 1: can't even have that because like Lenin looks like a

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Speaker 1: fucking saint compared to Stalin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when you talk about any of it, and like

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Speaker 2: you're not talking about Bolshevism or communism, you're talking about Stalinism,

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Speaker 2: and that's the more official word, but that's not the

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Speaker 2: word that gets used.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, well Marx's Leninism is the word that they use.

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Speaker 1: But as annoying because I think the Bolsheviks is that

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about it when we do Civil War episodes.

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Speaker 1: They murdered all their opponents and shit, they just like

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Speaker 1: still were a better and fucking still anyway. Yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: but you know what else is probably better than Stalin.

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Speaker 1: It actually is better than Stalin. And that's what's so

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Speaker 1: great about Stalin is Stalin makes even Bolshevism look good,

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Speaker 1: and he even makes these ads look good.

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Speaker 2: Wow, nothing like modern convenience is delivered to your door

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Speaker 2: for your prosperity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, most of these ads probably won't send lots of

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Speaker 1: people to die for no reason or criminalize homosexuality. If

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Speaker 1: you get the ad for one of the many politicians

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Speaker 1: who are trying to criminalize homosexuality, then never mind. They're

390
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Speaker 1: roughly equivalent to Stalin, which they'd love to hear, just

391
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Speaker 1: like you'll love to hear these ads. And we're back

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Speaker 1: so overall, even though I'm talking shit on like some

393
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Speaker 1: things that didn't quite work out in revolutionary Russia. In

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Speaker 1: terms of feminism, this is way more feminist than the

395
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Speaker 1: US and way more feminist than most places you could

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Speaker 1: be looking at in the world, which isn't saying much

397
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Speaker 1: much like our comparison about the ads looking really good.

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Speaker 1: And when I first heard about women snipers in World

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Speaker 1: War two. I was like, yeah, of course, it's like

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Speaker 1: the one thing the USSR was really good at was

401
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Speaker 1: like equal opportunity for women.

402
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Speaker 2: Right.

403
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Speaker 1: But of the eight hundred thousand women who fought in

404
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Speaker 1: the Red Army in World War Two, only eight thousand

405
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Speaker 1: of them were actually able to see combat. They were

406
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Speaker 1: kept out of frontline roles, they were made into nurses,

407
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Speaker 1: they were like given support roles left and right. And

408
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Speaker 1: the eight thousand who did see frontline combat had to

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Speaker 1: fight like hell internally to get that.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's equal with someone more equal than others. Right, It's

411
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Speaker 2: like it's yeah, there's this whole thing that you see

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Speaker 2: when you mentioned just a moment ago about like these

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Speaker 2: like these goals and then reality and also how some

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Speaker 2: things are more progressive than others. But when we look

415
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 2: at history, it's so easy to lose context about if

416
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Speaker 2: you put yourself in the place of time of then things,

417
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Speaker 2: we can't balance things by our view now and what

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Speaker 2: we would consider progressive now you have to think about

419
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Speaker 2: was progressive then. And every one of those steps is

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Speaker 2: where we get to to get to now, right, and

421
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Speaker 2: we still have many more to go, but it all

422
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Speaker 2: has to be in context.

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Speaker 1: No, that's that's absolutely true, And like, this is the

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Speaker 1: only military in World War two that has women in

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Speaker 1: it in any kind of frontline capacity, you know, any

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Speaker 1: official military. And about a third of these eight thousand

427
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Speaker 1: women fighting in combat were snipers. There is an entire

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Speaker 1: school for women snipers. At one point it might have

429
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Speaker 1: put what years started in the script, I'm not really sure.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, about one percent of all the women in

431
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: the military saw combat. I were like trying to see combat.

432
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 2: I wonder why it was so overwhelmingly on the sniper

433
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 2: side of things. I mean, from here's an example of

434
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 2: this that I see from what I do. In terms

435
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 2: of even just competition, like shooting skill is frequently something

436
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 2: that has nothing to do within a form of gender identity.

437
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 2: It's completely based on the individual and the dedication they

438
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 2: put into it. And also, which is interesting, at least

439
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 2: in the modern day, so often the preconceived notions of

440
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: what it means to be a good shooter or to

441
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 2: be good or skilled at marksmanship. That of course, men

442
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 2: in air quote are supposed to just be born with

443
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 2: women aren't necessarily indoctrinated with that, and then when they

444
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: come to learn, they're a much more open mind and

445
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 2: they learn faster and usually are better.

446
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: It is one of the things where I like, I

447
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: spent a while fall i'velled down in this rabbit hole

448
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: about like it has been my experience. I sometimes teach

449
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: new people how to shoot firearms, right, And I used

450
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: to live at a range, and it has been my

451
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: experience that women are better at shots, like in a

452
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 1: natural sense. And I hate gender essentialism, and so I'm like, well,

453
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,479
Speaker 1: what the hell's going on with this? And a lot

454
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 1: of people have like put a lot of thought into it.

455
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: Most of it's sort of nonsensical thought, but this idea

456
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 1: of like being open minded and not coming in with

457
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: like macho assumptions, and then it seems like at the

458
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 1: highest levels of competition it actually average. It just evens

459
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 1: out again, and it's like a sport in which men

460
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: don't have an advantage. There's no biological advantage to being

461
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: a man in shooting.

462
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 2: I just think it's a clean slate thing, which I mean,

463
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 2: no matter how much we want to keep ourselves out

464
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 2: of the corrupting influences of how society likes to function,

465
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 2: it's still there and coming to the to the plate

466
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,479
Speaker 2: with something a fresh mind and a clean slate and

467
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 2: not being told this is what you're supposed to do

468
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 2: or thinking or what you're supposed to do, and taking

469
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 2: construction well, whoever or whatever reason that is the case

470
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 2: means you're going to learn faster and better. It's just

471
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 2: the reality. And then you said, like it levels off

472
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 2: at the top, showing everyone can be equally as good.

473
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: It's just coming to the table without an already corrupted perspective.

474
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 1: No, that makes a lot of sense. And you know,

475
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,959
Speaker 1: anyone who's listening who's like, oh, I was not raised

476
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: in a gendered way that gave me access to firearms.

477
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: If you're interested in learning, it is a thing that

478
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: your gender is not any kind of hindrance at I

479
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 1: mean that whatever, stop people anyway. And there's so much

480
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 1: discourse run sports and shit right now, as if anyone

481
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 1: cared about women's sports until all of a sudden trans

482
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: women existed. But yeah, the standout the military with the

483
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 1: most women fighting in World War Two was the Italian

484
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: Partisan Resistance because it was a partisan resistance and so

485
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: thirty five thousand women were fighting against fascism as part

486
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: of the Italian partisan resistance, and resistance movements everywhere have

487
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: been friendlier to women. Overall, Russian women were also on

488
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: the front lines of partisan resistance. Before the Red Army

489
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: mobilized women stepped up, there was this unofficial engineer Corps

490
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: that built anti tank fortifications and laid booby traps. As

491
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: our Operation Barbarossa was coming. Because it happened so fast,

492
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: there wasn't time to mobilize the military, and so just

493
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: like local women were like, all right, well, let's go

494
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: fucking blow up some tanks. You know, later these women

495
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: joined up with the partisans trap behind Nazi lines, although

496
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: primarily at that point in support roles that are just

497
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: as important, like medical, cooking and smuggling messages around the

498
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 1: sort of often the traditional women's roles within informal militaries

499
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: and resistance movements, this especially like courier and all that

500
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: kind of shit. But now let's talk about Ludmila Pevlchenko,

501
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: our sniper. She's Ukrainian. She was born in Kiev what's

502
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: now Ukraine but was then the Russian Empire on July twelfth,

503
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: nineteen sixteen, which is, you know, before the Russian Revolution,

504
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: but not by a lot. Her father was a Red

505
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: Army Communist Party guy who was highly decorated for his

506
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: role in the Russian Civil War, and she was a

507
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: tomboy like half of the women on this show. She

508
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: got really into shooting. She joined a group that was like,

509
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: I didn't bother writing down as like some really long acronym.

510
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: It's like an acronym with like nine or ten letters

511
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah. It It is basically the like, let's

512
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: teach non army people, like non army kids army shit

513
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: in the name of sport, but also because it's a

514
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: good idea in case there's like a war whatever. It's

515
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: like boy Scouts, only everyone does it and you get

516
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: real guns and they teach you how to fly planes,

517
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: and it's like not quite mandatory, but it's like basically mandatory.

518
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: In order to get led into the better schools, you

519
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: have to join this other group. In order to join

520
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: that group, you have to join this group. And so

521
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: everyone's a boy scout basically, and so she's a boy

522
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 1: scout and she doesn't start off into shooting until a

523
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: local boy is like, I'm better than you at this,

524
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: and then she was like, oh no, I'm going to

525
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: be better at it, you than you. Girls can fucking

526
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: do anything they fucking want Apparently one of her main

527
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: hobbies as a kid was beating up boys who tried

528
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: to tell her what she couldn't couldn't do as a girl.

529
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: And she got really good at shooting because she practiced

530
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: all the time, which is a classic way to get

531
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: good at stuff. Anyone's wondering how to get good at stuff,

532
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: usually it am Alvest practicing all the time.

533
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 2: The exact opposite of some of the things we see

534
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 2: on the internet, which competition will get you killed in

535
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 2: the streets. She's proving this exactly to be wrong.

536
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: That's true. Do people say on the internet like, oh,

537
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: if you practice competition shooting, then you're like, yes, there's.

538
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: This concept of what they call training scars and like,

539
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: for example, shooting competition. Even my dynamic ones like I

540
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: run don't really have rules around cover or concealment or

541
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: things that are very important in an actual combative situation.

542
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 2: And so there's a certain subset of usually do nothing

543
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: people that will say that this is the kind of

544
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 2: stuff that gets you killed in the streets because you're

545
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: not using cover properly while on the clock, but at

546
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: the same time on the clock and learning how to shoot. Well,

547
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: what is combat if it's not a timed course of

548
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: with a part time that ends with someone dying. So

549
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: being good, yeah, proficient with your weapon is a critical

550
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: part of this. And yes, but people do claim the

551
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: competition will give you scars that will get you killed.

552
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: In reality, it's ridiculous, but it's a thing.

553
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds like something people would say. What I

554
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: have found is very effective with gunfights is to avoid them.

555
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: Number one way to yes, that is the best way

556
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 2: to not get shot is to not be shot at.

557
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: And the best way to not get shot at is

558
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: not being a gunfight. Yeah, if you can avoid it.

559
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: Sometimes life doesn't make that possible, but hopefully true.

560
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeahah no, it is worth like, depending on your

561
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: threat model, it is worth training in this. So I

562
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, but like I just had people the

563
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: exaggerated idea of the number of fights they get in.

564
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: And if you get into a lot of fights, you

565
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,959
Speaker 1: actually really shouldn't carry a gun. If you find yourself

566
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,959
Speaker 1: in a bar fight on a regular basis, you are

567
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: not someone who should carry a firearm until you stop

568
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: getting into bar fights because you can't get into bar

569
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: fights because you have a gun on you.

570
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: Something's there right there, right something with either the situations

571
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: you're putting yourself in or your social skills. Something's going

572
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: awry if that's happening on the rig.

573
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so she likes getting into regular fistfights learning how

574
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: to shoot. But then classic bad thing happening to women

575
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: on this show. So if he can probably guess so

576
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: if he also with the script in front of her,

577
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: she meets a guy, only in this case she doesn't

578
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: fall for him. She's just sixteen and marys a piece

579
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: of shit abusive doctor who's like a grown ass adult

580
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: who's marrying a kid. So she does that, she's a

581
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: kid of her own, and then she's like, you know,

582
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: I actually I've thought about this and I don't like

583
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: being married to an abusive piece of shit guy. So

584
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: she leaves him. I don't know whether she ever actually

585
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: ever formalized or divorce or she just left him. There's

586
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: some like things where it comes up as possibly she

587
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: never did. I don't care. And then she becomes an

588
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: arms manufacturer, like in a metal working way. She moves

589
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: to Kiev. She gets a job at an arms manufacturer.

590
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: She's like grinding metal to make guns or something, and

591
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: she takes night classes at a university for a history degree.

592
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: She's also running track and doing pole vaulting and taking

593
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: a sniper training class. This I don't believe she slept.

594
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: I think is the Also, she's a fucking single mother

595
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: at this alone.

596
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 2: Oh I'm me, And all of this speaks to her

597
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: fortitude before even the main topic.

598
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: Right.

599
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 2: The fact that she fell into that situation is one thing,

600
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: but being able to escape it shows a lot of

601
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: internal strength and fortitude. So that's in itself another indication

602
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: of who she is as a person.

603
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: No, totally. Then, I think she's like in her third

604
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: or fourth year. She's in her early mid twenties. You

605
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: get Operation Barbarossa, where Germany and its allies like Finland.

606
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: We talked about it last time they invade the USSR.

607
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: It's not going to go really well for him. Unfortunately,

608
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: it's not going to really go well for anybody. She's

609
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: one of the first volunteers and they're like, that's so great,

610
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: I really appreciate the UK. We need nurses, and she's like,

611
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: I'm a fucking sniper. I took sniper classes. I have

612
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: all of these awards for sniping. I don't have any

613
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: medical training. I'm a sniper, and they're like, no, you're

614
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: a little lady. Your nails are done nice, and you're

615
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: five foot one, so she's even shorter than our last hero.

616
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: Her nails were done up because, like the men, she

617
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: put on her best clothes and shit in order to

618
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: go to the recruiting center. Right, the men got dressed up,

619
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: so she figured she would too.

620
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: And you're expected to meet social norms no matter what. Right.

621
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's a couple different accounts of how this happens. Next,

622
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: she eventually convinces them to take her, and the funnest

623
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: one is that she comes back in and she dumps

624
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: her awards and certificates and shit on the dude's desk

625
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: and is like, I'm a fucking sniper And she has

626
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: to fight through a mountain of bullshit, including telling They

627
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: tell her that she can't join unless her husband gives permission,

628
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: and she's like, I haven't seen him in three years.

629
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: I don't know where he lives, Like what the fuck.

630
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: Eventually she strong arms her way into the military. There's

631
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: a couple versions of what happens is also in this

632
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: next part her own autobiography. It's called Lady Death, and

633
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: the English translation it's probably not written by her. It's

634
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: probably ghost written Soviet propaganda. Just frankly, it is a sanitized,

635
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: Soviet approved version. It doesn't mention the Molotov ribbon tromp packed.

636
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: It also talks about a bunch of fucking battles, and

637
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: it talks about like not what she was doing, but

638
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: what other people were doing during the battles. And I

639
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: don't know whether that's a like, as a good communist,

640
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: you don't center yourself, or if it's a she might

641
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: have been like, sure, you can write my biography whatever

642
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: you're fucking stalin. You can do whatever you want.

643
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: Probably didn't have much choice, Yeah, unlike the book, Unlike

644
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: the book about Chris Kyle, ooh, we won't go there.

645
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: So she gets into the army and they're like, that's cool.

646
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: There's one problem. We actually don't have any guns. We

647
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: just like, we have a lot more troops than we

648
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: have guns. Here's a hand grenade. Why don't you go

649
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: dig trenches? And isn't as bad as it sounds. There

650
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: were I've read accounts of like people who are like

651
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: literally just told like I don't care, go attack those

652
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 1: tanks with your fingernails. If you don't do it, We'll

653
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: fucking shoot you, you know. Like that is how the

654
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: Red Army rolled sometimes, but it's not always how they rolled.

655
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: In this case, it was go dig trenches, probably in Moldova,

656
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: which is a country immediately south of Ukraine, which is

657
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: part of the USSR starting in nineteen forty after some

658
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: shit got annexed from Romania during Operation Barbarossa. They were like,

659
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: we're fucking taking Moldova back whatever. So that's probably where

660
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: she starts off digging ditches and they're like, look, if

661
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: you get attacked, throw the hand grenade and run, which

662
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: is better than go attack the Germans. All we have

663
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 1: for you is a hand grenade.

664
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, reminds me of an apocryphal story. I don't think

665
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: it's a poker fule. It's probably a true story from

666
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 2: one of these accounts that I read in which the

667
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 2: Red Army was told one division was told you must

668
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 2: cross this river and the commander reported back that a

669
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: significant number of the troops under his command couldn't swim,

670
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 2: and they're like, do it anyway, and so, you know,

671
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 2: they reported back, we lost a third of our men

672
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: crossing the river. And now what like that sort of

673
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 2: insanity was reality.

674
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that is. I've read accounts of people who

675
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: had to do that kind of shit, But you know,

676
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 1: this wasn't as bad. Soon her unit is overwhelmed by

677
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: the blitz Creek and she does get her first rifle,

678
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:42,959
Speaker 1: and she gets it because the guy next to her dies.

679
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: Is the most likely version of this story. One version

680
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: is that he's like, take this young padawan and go

681
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: forth and kill Nazis. You know, probably not without the

682
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: without the cultural reference, unless he was a time traveler

683
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: who unfortunately died at the front on the Eastern Front.

684
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: Maybe if out he in the course of the war

685
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: with a Mozona gaunt. I'm not sure so. And I

686
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: will say this man who died and gave her a

687
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: rifle just for the assist is one of the most

688
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: successful anti fascists in history.

689
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 2: Sometimes it isn't what you do, but what you leave behind.

690
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, what you set up for someone else to do,

691
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: you know.

692
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

693
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: Her first two kills are two Romanian fascists and rapid

694
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: succession at long distance. This becomes her signature move is

695
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: two quick kills before retreating to cover. Whereas a lot

696
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: of snipers like pop up, shoot one and pop down.

697
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: She's like pop up, shoot two, and pop down. And

698
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: she doesn't work alone. She works with a team of

699
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: snipers and they basically will just like go set up

700
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: in the woods, kill a couple Nazis, then move to

701
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: a new location. At the start of the war, she's

702
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: racking up ten kills a day by doing this. She's

703
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: a badass counter sniper. She ends up sent on all

704
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: the most dangerous missions. Anytime there's like, oh fuck, we

705
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: need to get the sniper taken care of, right, And

706
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: so these are duels basically, and there are duels of

707
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: who can sit still the longest and when the moment

708
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: is perfect, hours or days later, immediately kill the other person.

709
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: And she wins every single time, thirty six times in total.

710
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: One of these duels lasted three days, and supposedly she

711
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: didn't eat or drink when she was on these missions.

712
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 1: I don't actually believe that. I just I don't think

713
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 1: that someone sat still for three days and didn't drink water.

714
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the amount of psychological tension and self discipline

715
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 2: to be able to do even what she was able

716
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 2: to do to stay still for that sort of thing,

717
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 2: oh yeah, hard to fathom. Like, I mean, how many

718
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: of us can sit still long enough through a one

719
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: minute short on YouTube anymore. And she's in the field

720
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: for three days with a rifle, waiting for someone to

721
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 2: try to kill her on a interestingly competition event that

722
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: includes a part time.

723
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, it is like and if someone yeah, like,

724
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 1: she was probably shitting and pissing herself right hard. She's

725
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, because you are waiting for the other

726
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: person to flinch. You are waiting for the other person

727
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: to move and give away their position, you know roughly

728
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: where they are. And after three days she says, the

729
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: hardest thing she ever did in her life. You know,

730
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: after three days, hey moved and she shot him.

731
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: You know, either way, for anyone that's ever actually done

732
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 2: anything in terms of just field exercise, a person at

733
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: one hundred yards one hundred meters same thing equivalent for

734
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 2: this that doesn't want to be seen won't be seen.

735
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: People in a forest environment. In the right environment, you

736
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: can disappear like a ghost, but movement immediately attracts the eye.

737
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. She's also using a Mozonna Gaunt,

738
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: much like Simo before her, but hers is a scope.

739
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: She uses a four x scope. I believe that I

740
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: think she didn't use a helmet. I think a helmet

741
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: like exposed her too much. It had her too high up,

742
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: it made her too visible. She has a lot of

743
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: head injuries, so it is, but she survives, so who knows.

744
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 2: Helmets are also really difficult with the scope and stuff.

745
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 2: If you're shooting a ninety one out with a scope,

746
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: you can use a helmet, but it's really in the way.

747
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. She also has this habit

748
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 1: of getting hit in the face with mortars and trapnel

749
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: and shit a lot. A total of four times, I

750
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: think three of the times her head injuries, and in

751
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: one of the times is an injury that I don't

752
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: know what is. She gets really nasty concussions. She also

753
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: gets promoted a lot. These are the two things that

754
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: she's good at, well three things. She's very good at

755
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: killing Nazis, she's very good at getting hit in the head,

756
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: and she's surviving getting hit in the head is a

757
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: better way to phrase it. And getting promoted up through

758
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: the ranks mostly the I don't know what she ends

759
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: up at as like a G lieutenant or something, but

760
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: mostly the like not commissioned officer ranks. The Nazis reach

761
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 1: Odessa and she's fighting them. The Romanian army reaches Odessa

762
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: and the Soviets fight like hell to stop them. It

763
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: took seventy three days for the invaders to take the city.

764
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: The invaders lost twice as many people as the Red

765
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: Army did defending it, even though the Reds were outnumbered

766
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: five to one. In seventy five days, she killed at

767
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: least one hundred and eighty seven fascists, and at this

768
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: point she is more successful than any sniper in American history,

769
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: including to the modern day. And this is not where

770
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: she stops. What we already said three on nine is

771
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: where she stops. Stopping the Nazis is like more important

772
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: than it's possible to say. When the Romanian fascists take Odessa,

773
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: there's the nineteen twenty one Odessa massacre where upwards of

774
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand, one hundred thousand Ukrainian Jews are murdered,

775
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: and the Red Army does, however, successfully evacuate one hundred

776
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: thousand people out of the city, including Jews, and helps

777
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: get people away. She and her unit withdraw. They go

778
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: to Sevastopool next, which is a city on the support

779
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 1: city on the Black Seat. It's the largest city in Crimea.

780
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 1: And this is part of where the current Ukrainian conflict

781
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: is happening, where it's part of Ukraine, but Russia's like noah,

782
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: it's ours, it used to be ours, fuck you or whatever.

783
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: You know.

784
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know the stuff happening today has a direct

785
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 2: line to not long ago. These things all linger on on,

786
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 2: I know.

787
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: And it's so interesting too, because like whenever I read

788
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: about like cool Soviet it's like at least half the

789
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: time they're Ukrainians or even the cool nineteenth century like Russians,

790
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: Like I mean, like, oh right, this is you know,

791
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: Ukraine and Russia were like culturally and geographically distinct, but

792
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: not completely. You know, they weren't separate. It was almost

793
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: maybe it was like being from the south versus being

794
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 1: from the north.

795
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, no, totally. And it's like and it's

796
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 2: one of those places that's a crucible over and over

797
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: again where I think it was a Dan Carlin that

798
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 2: used this phrase, but like double victim, they're like they

799
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 2: get it from both sides in certain circumstances, and it

800
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 2: makes a different place.

801
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, But you know

802
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: what else makes a lot of sense taking advantage of

803
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: these sweet sweet deals to spend your money, not on

804
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 1: things that could help you survive the coming crisis, not

805
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: on your friends go fund me so that they don't

806
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: lose their house, but instead whatever we're advertising. Eh.

807
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like to buy food from as far away

808
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 2: as possible, so that I know that it came from

809
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 2: me with a truck and using a lot of diesel fuel.

810
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 2: That's one way to I think makes a lot of

811
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 2: sense as well.

812
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. Climate accelerationism, Yeah, I mean that's our motto. Yeah,

813
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: and we're back and I'm continuing to find out how

814
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: far I can push certain types of things. So she

815
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: fights in the siege of Sevastopol, where this is probably

816
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: where she does most of her counter sniping. Is storying

817
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: this siege at this point, there's this story where she

818
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: falls in love with a fellow sniper and him Alexey Kitsenka,

819
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: and she gets married during the siege, and then he

820
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 1: dies and it's tragic, you know, and it's a tragic thing.

821
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 1: She's so heartbroken. She never marries again. This probably didn't happen.

822
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: She probably didn't marry this guy. She doesn't mention him

823
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: in her autobiography. And also there's a bunch of parallels

824
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: to another Soviet war hero, a lady. We'll talk about

825
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: about this exact same like tragic death, woman mourning in

826
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: the front lines thing. Maybe she did, maybe she married

827
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 1: this guy. I don't know rip either way, this dude died,

828
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: Stop shooting Nazis. He's cool people in my book. But

829
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: so Vastpool goes really badly for well again, everyone but

830
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 1: the Russians in particular. The city actually holds for the

831
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,720
Speaker 1: first major attack, so and the Soviets launching amphibious landing

832
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: to leave the siege. But then the siege continues and

833
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: Germany just bombs the ever loving shit out of the city.

834
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: Eleven buildings are left standing in this city by the

835
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: end of the fucking siege.

836
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 2: You know what's funny about that is they found this

837
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: out at Stalingrad as well, that the bombing was actually

838
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 2: counterproductive because it provided the perfect environment. I mean, it

839
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: sounds terrible and the city's gone. It makes it more defensible.

840
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 2: It also makes us prime place to be a sniper.

841
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh interesting, all the ruins.

842
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the Stallingrat was called the War of the

843
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 2: Rats because everyone was crawling through what was left, and

844
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 2: the concealment and cover was immense better than if the

845
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 2: buildings were intact.

846
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, war is something that I hope I managed to

847
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: successfully avoid my whole life. So Woodmiller says, of the

848
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: time we mowed down hitlerrites like ripe grain, which is

849
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: what she uses a set of Nazis every time I've

850
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: seen it. At least she was given an award for

851
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: having killed two hundred and fifty seven people, and her

852
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: response was I'll get more. The Germans wanted her to

853
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: switch sides. They are terrified of her. They're like driving

854
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: around with megaphones being like Ludmila pavel Chenko. Come over

855
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: to us. We'll give you chocolate. I'm not making that

856
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: part up and make you a German officer.

857
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 2: We have chocolate, we have amphetamines. Come on over.

858
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,919
Speaker 1: I know for some reason this didn't work. I'm I mean,

859
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: must have been pretty mediocre chocolate.

860
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 2: Actually, scho Co cola is pretty good.

861
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: But hey, okay, okay, Well she's just really committed.

862
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 2: Then was speaks to her dedication that she was not

863
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: turning sides for Schoco Cola.

864
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, by the end of her time in that siege,

865
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: she'd killed three hundred and nine Nazis. Supposedly. I have

866
00:45:58,160 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: not seen a direct quote from this. I think this

867
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: particul killed quote as apocryphal, but this concept is absolutely

868
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: what she believed. She was asked if she's felt bad

869
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: about killing so many people, she said, I didn't kill people.

870
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: I killed Nazis, which is the comparison to like Simo,

871
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 1: where he was like, I did what I had to do,

872
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 1: you know, and he like Now She's like, fuck these Nazis,

873
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: which is legit. That's how I would feel, she probably said.

874
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: Hitler writes if she said this quote at all, but

875
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: I do have direct quotes from her about it, like

876
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: the only feeling I have is the great satisfaction a

877
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: hunter feels when he has killed a beast of prey

878
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 1: or another quote. Every German who remains alive will kill women, children,

879
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: and old folks. Dead Germans are harmless. Therefore, if I

880
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: kill a German, I am saving lives.

881
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: And she's not wrong if that's if that quote is true.

882
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: That was legitimately correct at the time, right, I mean

883
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: every piece of ground, as you said that they that

884
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 2: they acquired more people were going to gas chambers.

885
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's just and that one we do have.

886
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: I think she said that to the US media.

887
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 3: So she was.

888
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: Wounded by shrapnel from a mortar again. This is her

889
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 1: fourth injury, and it takes her out of the fight.

890
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: But she's really fucking important to the Soviets at this point.

891
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: She's one of the best snipers in history, and she's

892
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 1: really good propaganda. So they get her out through the

893
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: siege lines and a submarine. I want to watch. I

894
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: know there's a movie about the siege of Sebasspol that

895
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,399
Speaker 1: she's in, but I haven't seen it. I just want

896
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: to watch the movie about the person who's like sneaking

897
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: in in a fucking submarine to go rescue this lady

898
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: and this probably saves her life. Her entire rifle division,

899
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: the twenty fifth was wiped out during the siege, including

900
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 1: the man that she may or may not have been

901
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: married to. After that, she's not sent back to the front.

902
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 1: She's sent around as a propagandist. She meets Stalin and

903
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: like the I think the only thing she said about

904
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 1: it was like, he's not as tall as I would

905
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,919
Speaker 1: have thought. Apparently he's kind of short. I think he's

906
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 1: like her height. I'm not actually sure. I'm sure someone knows.

907
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 3: Incredibly base her.

908
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. At this point, she gets the name Lady Death,

909
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: or maybe she had it already. I love how everyone

910
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: is like the enemy gave her the name Lady Death,

911
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: much like they gave Simo the name the White Death.

912
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: I think her fucking handlers gave her that name. And

913
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: is there my guest her name then, Lady Death? Yeah no,

914
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: I don't think.

915
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 3: So, so shut the fuck up, haters.

916
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. I would guess that the Nazis probably called her

917
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: that bitch who keeps shooting Nazis, which is like the

918
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: second best name you could possibly have, or like subtitle,

919
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, subtitle.

920
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 3: I would agree.

921
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: I would agree.

922
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: I actually wonder what their slur was for her. I've

923
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 2: never heard it, but I'm sure it wasn't really really nice.

924
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 3: I'm sure it wasn't very nice.

925
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: Yeah it was.

926
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 2: It was probably kind of mean. Yeah, like something you

927
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 2: might read on four.

928
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: Chune, right, Yeah, that what the Nazis are so up

929
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: I can't even sentence. So she's now a propagandist. She's

930
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: not really excited about this role, but she does what

931
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 1: she has to do. At this point, the US is

932
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: dragging its heels. We're involved in the Pacific theater, but

933
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: we're staying out of Europe. It's too messy. I guess

934
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: someone knows, and I don't know Lady Death is I mean,

935
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: I guess they haven't attacked us basically, and there isn't

936
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 1: the political will to go have half a million people dying,

937
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: which is what ends up happening. So Lady Death goes

938
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: off to the US to meet with the Roosevelts to

939
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: convince the US to stop being chicken shit and start

940
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: fighting Nazis. It's hard to imagine this brief period where

941
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: the US and the USSR buds, but the US is

942
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: like sending a ton of weapons and shit at this point, right,

943
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: And she is the first Soviet citizen received by a

944
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: US president, and she becomes friends with the first Lady,

945
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: Eleanor Roosevelt, and by becomes friends with I mean probably

946
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: had romantic and or sexual RelA relations with because you know,

947
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: Eleanor Res Roosevelt was gay as hell.

948
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 2: I have to admit I did not know that. But

949
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 2: this tracks, it tracks, and when you say it, I didn't,

950
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: I feel bad that I didn't know that. Actually, that's

951
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 2: that's that's important.

952
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 3: Well, everybody's a little gay magpie. But what are we

953
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 3: talking to from here?

954
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: So she's bisexual? Yeah, and rather she exists before any

955
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: of these definitions have any meaningful sense. But the longest

956
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: romantic relationship of her life is not with her husband.

957
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: It is with a woman we're going to talk about.

958
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 1: And now we're going to just completely go away from

959
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: Russia and talk about gay presidents, or rather gay first ladies.

960
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,760
Speaker 1: Because Sophie, do you think we should rename this podcast

961
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: ADHD History with Margaret and then end that We'll just

962
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 1: end the title with like dot dot dot because it

963
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 1: like as if we trailed away while we were in

964
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: the busy middle of titling. It sure excellent, Okay, cool.

965
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 3: And unless you change your mind about five minutes to

966
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 3: have an new titter for the podcast, could happen?

967
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: Wait what was the other one? Oh yeah, no, yeah,

968
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:08,760
Speaker 1: totally yeah.

969
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: What an amazing woman though, and like rack up three

970
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 2: hundred and nine Nazi kills and then go over the

971
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 2: United States and then.

972
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: You know, fuck the president's wife.

973
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I mean Roosevelt. I do we use

974
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 2: that word? I mean cockt Roosevelt right in the most

975
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 2: awesome way, right.

976
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like I never used the word cook as

977
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: like an insult.

978
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's in the.

979
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: Script he was.

980
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: Maybe he was into it.

981
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: I don't think so, but I also don't care. And

982
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that. We'll talk about why. Like I mean,

983
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: he's not even whatever. He's as far as presidents go,

984
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: he's not on the worst list.

985
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 2: This must have been kept incredibly quiet, though, because all

986
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 2: of the enemies would have used this to their propaganda advantage,

987
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 2: and that we haven't heard this as common knowledge is

988
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 2: indicative of it didn't get out.

989
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,240
Speaker 1: Well, I'll talk about the history of it too, okay.

990
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,959
Speaker 1: So Eleanor Roosevelt was the first Lady of the Ust

991
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 1: in World War Two. She was a prolific letter writer,

992
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: fortunately for gay history, because she wrote thousands of letters

993
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 1: to her main lover, a woman named Laurena Haycock, who

994
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: goes by Hick Hick. I just looked up the etymology

995
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: for fun. It's a man's nickname, sometimes short for Richard,

996
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: but at this point it is already been used as

997
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: slang for provincial and backwater. So she is from a

998
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: real blue, blue collar rural background. So it's kind of

999
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 1: a power move of a nickname to go by Hick.

1000
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: She is the first woman to have a byeline on

1001
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: the front page of the New York Times or by

1002
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: a different source, to be have a byline in the

1003
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: New York Times at all. She was the most famous

1004
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 1: woman journalist of her era. And she I mean, she

1005
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: fucking boostrapped herself. She was the daughter of an itinerant

1006
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: butter maker, and she just worked really fucking hard at

1007
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 1: journalism and managed to get herself working for the Associated Press.

1008
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: And just when she'd finally found found her way out

1009
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 1: of cover women's issues, they're like, hey, do you want

1010
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 1: to go cover the first lady Eleanor Roosevelt. And there's

1011
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: two versions of this story. One is she's mad about

1012
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: it and she's like, no way, I just got myself

1013
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: out of women's work. And the other is that after

1014
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: her first interview with Eleanor Roosevelt, she's like, oh, yeah, no,

1015
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: you should assigned me. You should assigned me full time

1016
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: to this lady.

1017
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: This is very important and I have many studies to

1018
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: be done.

1019
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: Yes, Eleanor Roosevelt is interesting for her own right. She

1020
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: drafted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. She was the

1021
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: first US delegate to the UN. She campaigned for civil

1022
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: rights for black people in the US. She was basically

1023
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: a die hard progressive and feminist. She was also the

1024
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: longest serving first Lady of the United States, and she

1025
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,439
Speaker 1: pretty much did her husband's campaigning for him since she'd

1026
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: lost since he'd lost the use of his legs, probably

1027
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: due to polio. And you know, we lived in an

1028
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: enable a society then and we live in enable ast

1029
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: society now. During the Great Depression, she set up this

1030
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 1: like weird, oddly social, like market socialist town in West

1031
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: Virginia for miners who'd been blacklisted for union organizing, where she,

1032
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 1: like the government bought everyone houses and paid for things

1033
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: and then was like, okay, now go forth and be

1034
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: economically useful.

1035
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 2: You know.

1036
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 1: She banned mail reporters from attending her press conferences to

1037
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: give more opportunities to women reporters. She tried to go

1038
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: to Europe to volunteer for the Red Cross during World

1039
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: War Two. Eventually she listened to reason, which was that

1040
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 1: if you're captured as a pow and you're the first

1041
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: Lady of the United States, is going to fuck up

1042
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 1: the war, you.

1043
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 2: Know, kind of a problem.

1044
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I hate when women like can't go do

1045
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 1: the exciting thing because of like rules. But I'm actually

1046
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: that makes sense. It makes sense that she didn't go

1047
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: do it right, but she wanted to. The spirit was there.

1048
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 1: She spent the war trying to get the US to

1049
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 1: let in more refugees, including Jewish refugees from Europe. Her

1050
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 1: greatest regret on her deathbed was that she hadn't succeeded

1051
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: in forcing the US to accept basically all the Jews

1052
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 1: who were coming. And this is particularly interesting because she

1053
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: started off her political career as basically as an anti Semite. Specifically,

1054
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: she fell for the association of Jews with like evil,

1055
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: capitalist wealth or whatever. So she definitely wasn't perfect and

1056
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 1: there's a lot of myth making going on, but like,

1057
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 1: she's interesting, and she does not like her marriage to

1058
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: Franklin Roosevelt, the guy everyone calls FDR because he lives

1059
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: in the shadow of Theodore Roosevelt, who is his like

1060
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: fifth cousin once removed or something. Which do you know

1061
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 1: Eleanor Roosevelt's maiden name? No, I do not, but what

1062
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 1: is it Roosevelt?

1063
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 3: Ah?

1064
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, because she is the niece question mark. Okay, so

1065
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 1: this is interesting. She is the niece of Theodore Roosevelt

1066
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: and she marries her fifth cousin, and fifth cousin is

1067
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 1: far away. That like, no one knows who your fifth

1068
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: cousin is unless you're royalty, unless you are like American

1069
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: plutocrat royalty or traditional royalty, you don't know who your

1070
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:15,280
Speaker 1: fifth cousins are. There's actually nothing wrong. I'm gonna someone's

1071
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: gonna edit what I was about to say and make

1072
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: it sound real bad. But whatever, there's nothing wrong with

1073
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 1: marrying your fifth cousin. No one knows who their fifth

1074
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: cousins are. That said, it's kind of funny that she

1075
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 1: managed to pull a feminism. She got to keep her

1076
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: maid a name, right.

1077
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting too, So this is right, fifth cousin

1078
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 2: is quite separated, and it's not like it might be

1079
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 2: fourth cousin I'm bad at But it's not like Iceland

1080
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 2: where you need a dating app to make sure you're

1081
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 2: not related. On top of that, it's interesting to also

1082
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 2: note just how much of the power brokerage this country's

1083
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 2: always been under for how long it has.

1084
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:56,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, yeah, that's like, honestly, my only problem with

1085
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 1: this is that it's like, God, I hate that there's

1086
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: like royal families in the United States, you know. I mean,

1087
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 1: I remember, like, my mom voted for Clinton in twenty sixteen,

1088
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 1: but she didn't vote for in the primary because she

1089
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 1: just was like, we shouldn't have fucking royal families. She

1090
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,320
Speaker 1: probably didn't cuss, we just shouldn't have royal families in

1091
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: the United States, you know. Anyway, So while she'd been pregnant,

1092
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 1: she caught her husband cheating on her, and she decided

1093
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 1: to just not forgive him. She also decided to stick

1094
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: around with the marriage, should not fuck up his career.

1095
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 1: So they were married, but they weren't together. Yeah, she

1096
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: might have had an affair with her her bodyguard. I

1097
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: don't know as much about that, but she had a

1098
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 1: passionate She was passionately in love with Hick, the journalist

1099
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: designed to cover her. Soon the two are going on

1100
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: all kinds of multiple month vacations around the world together.

1101
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: Hick moves into the White House, leaving the Associated Press

1102
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 1: and getting government jobs instead. They write each other letters daily,

1103
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: sometimes twice a day. There are more than three thousand

1104
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: letters that archives have between the two of them over

1105
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: the course of their twenty nine year relationship. When the

1106
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: letters became unsealed in nineteen seventy nine. They're full of

1107
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: quotes that say things like I wish I could lie

1108
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 1: down beside you tonight and take you in my arms.

1109
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: The New York Times headline was Letters by Eleanor Roosevelt

1110
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: detail friendship with Lorraina. Haycock. Ah.

1111
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 2: So even when this became possible to be public knowledge,

1112
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 2: of course it was downplayed and to turned into something

1113
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 2: other than it was, not to let it be the

1114
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 2: actual liberating moments it really really really.

1115
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 1: Was, yeah, exactly. Hick gave her a ring, which she

1116
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: wore at the inauguration. She wrote, Hick, Darling, Oh, I

1117
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 1: want to put my arms around you. I ache to

1118
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: hold you close. Your ring is a great comfort. I

1119
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: look at it and think she does love me, or

1120
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be wearing it. Eleanor kept a photo of

1121
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 1: Hicck in her study and kissed it every morning and

1122
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 1: night because they're just, you know, historically close friends.

1123
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 2: This is really sweet, actually kind of, I mean it is.

1124
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 2: First I didn't know about this. This should be common

1125
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:11,439
Speaker 2: not either.

1126
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, and one version I've read is that Hicks

1127
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: who convinced Eleanor to get over her anti semitism, not

1128
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: that Hick was Jewish, but that she just wasn't a

1129
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 1: piece of shit, you know, And she's like, Hey, I

1130
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: found a hole in your fucking politics. We should talk

1131
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: about this, you know. They co wrote a book together

1132
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: called Ladies of Courage that's a tribute to strong women

1133
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: in history. Eleanor Roosevelt surrounded herself with lesbians. She cohabitated

1134
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: with like I think two lesbian couples for like thirty years,

1135
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 1: and there were rumors but nothing more about any of

1136
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: this while she was alive. Her son, when the letters

1137
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 1: were unsealed in the late seventies, he was like, oh no,

1138
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 1: this is like because she like grew up reading Jane Austen.

1139
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: That's why she writes like that.

1140
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 2: Could you imagine being in the upper Echelonza Garment at

1141
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 2: this time and knowing this and the people that were

1142
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 2: trying to keep this under wraps. It must have been

1143
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 2: quite the challenge the fact that we the fact that

1144
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 2: this isn't common knowledge now, Like I said, embarrassed that

1145
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,959
Speaker 2: that's not the case. Yeah, imagine back in forty four

1146
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 2: when Hitler's throwing every slurry can at FDR, et cetera,

1147
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 2: and this isn't in the.

1148
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 1: Open yeah, no, and it gets into this, Okay, it

1149
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: ties into this even deeper history. She is not the

1150
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 1: first lesbian first Lady of the United States of America.

1151
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 1: The first one that we know about was a woman

1152
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: named Rose Cleveland, who was actually not married to Grover Cleveland.

1153
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: Grover Cleveland had been single when he was elected and US,

1154
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's law or established custom, is

1155
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 1: that a family member comes in as first lady. So

1156
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: his sister, Rose Cleveland serves as first Lady until eventually

1157
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 1: he marries his fucking ward. Because it's the nineteenth century,

1158
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 1: he's a creep. Rose's nickname as a kid was Johnny.

1159
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 1: She eventually moved to Italy with a lady named Evangeline

1160
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 1: to spend the rest of their lives together. In their

1161
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:14,479
Speaker 1: love letters, Evangeline called Rose my Viking, and their love

1162
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 1: was accepted because there wasn't The word for lesbian isn't

1163
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:22,439
Speaker 1: at this point, and romantic friendships between upper class white

1164
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: women in the United States, these are fairly common. Sometimes

1165
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 1: it was sexual, sometimes it was just a way to

1166
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 1: carve out some freedom and have women to hang out with.

1167
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:37,479
Speaker 1: And this historically close friends thing is really messy because

1168
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 1: it was actually super normal. It just lesbian romantic relationships,

1169
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: whether they fucked or not, were super normal and they

1170
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 1: just weren't acknowledged. That's the best I can figure out.

1171
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 1: And I don't know, because you're right, Hitler, absolutely. I mean,

1172
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 1: at this point, he's murdering lesbians by the Midt fourty, like,

1173
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 1: he's clearly aware of the Scissor brigade and he wants

1174
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: to kill them all and so like, so you're right,

1175
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 1: he's not leading with that and so. But to Rose's

1176
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: rest of her life, they moved to Italy and they

1177
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 1: organized relief efforts during World War One for refugees, and

1178
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 1: then Rose died of the Spanish flu at age seventy two.

1179
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 1: Evangeline wrote a book about Tuscany and then dedicate it

1180
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: to Rose, and they were buried side by side under

1181
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: matching gravestones in Italy. You can see a photo of it.

1182
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 1: It's really sweet. Both of these first women were revealed

1183
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 1: only years later by archivists, and in both cases, so

1184
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 1: many people tried to suppress the letters. So many people

1185
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 1: were like, it is our job to make sure that

1186
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: these archives never come out, you know, which is the

1187
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 1: opposite of a historian's job. If you're listening now, and

1188
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 1: you think I should suppress this, you're wrong. As a

1189
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 1: tangential example of that, one of the social history archives,

1190
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 1: I'm not going to name it, no whatever, a social

1191
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 1: history archive, and this is this is a thing I

1192
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 1: got told in person, and so it has all of

1193
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 1: this information about Dutch leftists joining the Nazis, including Dutch

1194
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 1: anarchists joining the Nazis because you know, they hated the

1195
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 1: Dutch government. When the Nazis came in, a bunch of

1196
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 1: leftists became fucking Nazis, right, And a lot of historian

1197
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: and a lot of archivists didn't want that information to

1198
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:23,800
Speaker 1: get out because it looks really bad for the left,

1199
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: and fuck that. Our job as historians is to I'm

1200
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 1: not a historian. My job is to tell stories out

1201
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: of the shit I find. But like you know, anyway, whatever,

1202
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 1: I'm annoyed by it.

1203
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, not to cross wires. But one of the things

1204
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 2: that we say in TST is that which should be destroyed,

1205
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 2: that which would be destroyed by the truth, should not

1206
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 2: be spared its demise. And I agree with that one

1207
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 2: hundred percent. The truth is always the most important thing

1208
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 2: to figure out, and there's covering things up to change

1209
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 2: the narrative is doing a disservice not only to people

1210
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 2: in history, but the future.

1211
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 1: Yeah totally. And if if my like ideological positions can't

1212
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 1: handle the truth, I'll just change my ideal logical.

1213
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:02,800
Speaker 2: Ping and I'd like them to get destroyed, right actually absolutely?

1214
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So anyway, the archive is burying this lesbian history,

1215
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: and it makes me think about like how much of

1216
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 1: how much of our history is actually buried, not just

1217
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 1: as like the love that can't speak its name, but

1218
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 1: a love that did speak its name, like like these

1219
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 1: women were together, right, and then historians and archivists and

1220
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 1: like publicists and estates of the family just actively burying

1221
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 1: the information, like how many gay journals were just burned

1222
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 1: by the family as soon as they were found.

1223
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 2: You know, this is something I refer to on Enrange's

1224
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:41,080
Speaker 2: intentionally induced amnesia. And there's so many instances I've run

1225
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 2: into this one blows my mind. There's been a few

1226
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 2: that just like, how is this not something that's like

1227
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 2: not only is it not well known? How is it

1228
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 2: not in just like ninth grade history books, for example,

1229
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 2: that has.

1230
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 1: Been left totally.

1231
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 2: Out of a historical narrative and it's because there was

1232
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 2: a vested interests and not make sure it wasn't there. Yeah,

1233
01:04:58,880 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 2: that's dangerous.

1234
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 1: And we've had like a decade or two of people

1235
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 1: actually starting to say the truth, and now already the

1236
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 1: reaction is coming in and being like, we can't talk

1237
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: about the fact that people historically it touched the tips

1238
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 1: of their penises together. However, gay menosex, I don't know, Well.

1239
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 2: That destroys the earth on the planet. It's like Ghostbusters

1240
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:17,640
Speaker 2: and you cross the streams.

1241
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 1: Oh that makes sense. Actually, yeah, no, totally. But as

1242
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: for Lude Miller and Eleanor Roosevelt, we're going to talk

1243
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: about them as well as a high femme fighting ace

1244
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: with the most combat kills in the sky of any

1245
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 1: woman in history on Wednesday. I like that. I like that.

1246
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 2: Thanks Thanks women launching bullets in the Nazis Yeah, just

1247
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 2: tugs up my heart strings.

1248
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: I know it's just beautiful. But if people want to

1249
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: see you launch bullets in the ballistic cell also whatever

1250
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 1: else you want to plug.

1251
01:05:57,040 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can find me at range dot tv,

1252
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 2: which is a where you can find all my decentralized

1253
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 2: distribution points, completely crowdfunded, no sponsors, no overlords, and so

1254
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 2: it's completely Hopefully some of you out there haven't seen it,

1255
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 2: check it out and like it, and if you really

1256
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 2: like it, support the effort, because in Range has strangely

1257
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 2: becomes sort of I guess edutainment, but a movement in

1258
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 2: a way. So appreciate everyone out there that's keep into

1259
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 2: the live.

1260
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: Hell, yeah, I want to plug. Even this morning, I

1261
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 1: was like, I know what I'm going to plug today,

1262
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:34,840
Speaker 1: but now I don't know, So go oh, I have

1263
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 1: a stubsack? What I have a substack? We were almost there?

1264
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 3: Was there?

1265
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 1: All right? Yes, I write a newsletter. Today's, for example,

1266
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: was about my advice for writing fiction in the End Times,

1267
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 1: and it's my advice for new writers. And you can

1268
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 1: find it if you google Margaret Killjoy substack, or if

1269
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 1: you're the weirdo who types r l's into the bar,

1270
01:06:55,080 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 1: it's Margaret Kiljoy dot substack dot. I assume Colm, Sophie,

1271
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 1: what do you got?

1272
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 3: Listen to sad Oligarch. It's a series hosted by j

1273
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 3: Kanrahan or.

1274
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 1: Cools of If you like Russia history, if.

1275
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 3: You're wondering why these uh Rich Russian guys keep falling

1276
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 3: out of the sky.

1277
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 1: Check it out. Is there gonna be one about the

1278
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 1: Russian that just fell on the plane? Yes? Hell yeah,

1279
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 1: See you all Wednesday.

1280
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 2: Bye.

1281
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 3: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1282
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:34,320
Speaker 3: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

1283
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 3: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1284
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Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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Speaker 3: your podcasts.