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Speaker 1: Welcome to River Cafe Table four, a production of iHeartRadio

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Speaker 1: and Adamized Studios.

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Speaker 2: Gwyneth Paltrow worked for a day in the River Cafe kitchen.

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Speaker 2: She arrived early dressed in professional chef whites, ready to cook.

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Speaker 2: This memory speaks to how professional Gwyneth is. An Oscar

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Speaker 2: winning actor, she built Goop from a simple newsletter into

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Speaker 2: an influential and uplifting business with energy, elegance, and strong values.

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Speaker 2: Another memory. Ten years ago, just after the death of

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Speaker 2: our son, Beau, I asked Gwyneth if she might surprise

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Speaker 2: the River Cafe team and sing one song for them

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Speaker 2: at our Christmas party to thank them for their care

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Speaker 2: and concern for me. Gwyneth not only said yes, she

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Speaker 2: sang four songs, danced with everyone, and stayed to the

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Speaker 2: very end. In the River Cafe history, we still talk

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Speaker 2: about the time Gwyneth Paltrow came to sing. I admire

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Speaker 2: Gwyneth for being a brave, smart entrepreneur. I respect Gwyneth

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Speaker 2: as a writer of recipes. Most of all, I love

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Speaker 2: Gwyneth for being there with me that night and here

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Speaker 2: with me today.

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Speaker 3: Oh boy, I wasn't expecting that.

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Speaker 4: That was so beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. So, if we were going to start at

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Speaker 2: the beginning, what is the beginning? Where were you born?

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Speaker 2: Where did you grow up?

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Speaker 3: I was born here in Los Angeles, in Hollywood. We

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Speaker 3: kind of went back and forth between New York City

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Speaker 3: and Santa Monica a lot. I did a lot of

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Speaker 3: preschool in New York City, and I did first and

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Speaker 3: third grades in New York City while my mother was

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Speaker 3: on Broadway, and then the bulk of the rest of

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Speaker 3: elementary school here and then moved permanently to New York

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Speaker 3: City when I was eleven.

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Speaker 2: Can you remember the kitchens as food? I described the kitchens,

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Speaker 2: but they're very different.

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Speaker 3: The La house and the kitchens were very different. So

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Speaker 3: our kitchen in Las Angelus here had a brick floor,

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Speaker 3: red brick floor and a tile counter, sort of like

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Speaker 3: very country kitchen. Lots of windows, and you could see

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Speaker 3: the backyard in the pool, and we were in there

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Speaker 3: a lot. I mean, I think with every house, you're

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Speaker 3: in the kitchen more than anywhere. Our New York kitchen

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Speaker 3: was on the ground floor. We grew up in a townhouse,

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Speaker 3: almost no windows, but we had a big fireplace in

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Speaker 3: the kitchen, which was really nice, and it was more

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Speaker 3: of a modern kitchen had been done by a Swedish architects.

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Speaker 3: It was kind of minimal and who cooked well. When

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Speaker 3: I was little, I remember, I mean my mom cooked.

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Speaker 3: My dad started cooking a lot, but that was later.

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Speaker 3: He got very into cooking, kind of when we were

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Speaker 3: older teenagers.

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Speaker 2: And when you have meals around the table together with

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Speaker 2: you and Jake, Oh, my parents sit down, what were

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Speaker 2: they like?

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Speaker 3: They were really nice. I mean it was I think

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Speaker 3: we felt special being included the dinner table, even though

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Speaker 3: it was a nightly event. It felt, you know, like

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Speaker 3: if they had friends over. We sat with them at

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Speaker 3: the table and had long conversations. It's something that I've

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Speaker 3: carried on with my kids as well. You know, we

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Speaker 3: always have dinner all together as a family, no phones

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Speaker 3: allowed at the table, and you get into great discourse

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Speaker 3: with them and hear what they think about things. And

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Speaker 3: I think my father made me feel that I was

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Speaker 3: valuable during those dinners because he really elicited our opinion.

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Speaker 3: He asked questions, and my brother and I were very

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Speaker 3: much a part of the conversation.

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Speaker 2: It was his background.

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Speaker 3: He grew up without money, he grew up on Long Island,

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Speaker 3: and they were you know, They were kind of a

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Speaker 3: working class moving trying moving up into middle class Jewish family,

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Speaker 3: but they didn't have a lot of disposable income, and

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Speaker 3: they didn't they didn't go out to eat. So when

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Speaker 3: my father finally made it, you know, like his and

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Speaker 3: he loved food and all the.

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Speaker 2: Beautiful things in life.

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Speaker 3: You know, he loved beautiful fabrics and paintings, and you know,

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Speaker 3: he would take me to every museum in the world

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Speaker 3: and we would walk for hours. And I think food

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Speaker 3: for him was really an expression of life's beauty and

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Speaker 3: our blessings and good fortune to be able to eat

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Speaker 3: something that was fresh and delicious and really well conceived

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Speaker 3: and thought about. And he was so proud that, you know,

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Speaker 3: we ate oysters and you know, things that he hadn't

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Speaker 3: come across until really later in his life. And I

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Speaker 3: always remember, and I wrote about this in my first book,

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Speaker 3: that when we would get into the car to go

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Speaker 3: out to dinner, like no matter how many times we

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Speaker 3: had gone, like, he was so excited. It was like

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Speaker 3: the greatest thing of all time that we were going

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Speaker 3: out to dinner.

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Speaker 2: Did you travel with your parents, Did you go to

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Speaker 2: Italy or Spain?

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Speaker 3: We never went to Italy, until you know, the first

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Speaker 3: time I ever went to Italy with my mind. My

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Speaker 3: father he was when he died. He died in Florence,

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Speaker 3: he died in he died in Rome. And we were

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Speaker 3: doing our first kind of road trip after my thirtieth birthday,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, he kind of died on me, which.

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Speaker 4: Complicated the trip.

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Speaker 2: It is a complicate Italy for you.

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Speaker 3: It did complicate Italy for me for a long time.

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Speaker 3: I didn't go back for ten years. And when we

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Speaker 3: were on our road trip and I found out that

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Speaker 3: he was sick and he had been coughing up blood,

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Speaker 3: and I said, we have to go to the hospital.

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Speaker 3: You know, he'd been hiding it for me because he

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Speaker 3: didn't want He really wanted to finish our trip. And

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Speaker 3: I was like, this is so, we're going to the hospital.

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Speaker 3: And he was like, no, we got to get to

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Speaker 3: the Splendido. He really was trying, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: we're not going to the like, we're going to the hospital.

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Speaker 3: And he ended up dying. And then I had a

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Speaker 3: real aversion to Italy for a long time. And then,

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Speaker 3: very sweetly, Chris Martin, my first husband, on my fortieth

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Speaker 3: birthday ten years later, and I was having a lot

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Speaker 3: of anxiety about it anyway, because I think turning forty,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm about to turn fifty and I kind

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Speaker 3: of don't give a but forty I was like, really

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Speaker 3: had so much anxiety about it, and he by that point,

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Speaker 3: I had the two kids and we got on a

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Speaker 3: plane and I didn't know where we were going, and

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Speaker 3: we all of a sudden, I realized we were landing

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Speaker 3: in Genoa and that we were going to the Splendid Though,

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Speaker 3: which was so sweet. It was such a nice surprise.

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Speaker 3: So it was like a completion, but it was. But

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Speaker 3: Jake was with me and my two best friends Mary

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Speaker 3: and Julia, who've been my best friend since one since

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Speaker 3: I was four and one since I was eleven. They

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Speaker 3: were with me, and they my father was like a

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Speaker 3: father to them too, So it was it ended up

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Speaker 3: being a really beautiful experience that we all got to

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Speaker 3: be there and kind of come full circle. And now

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Speaker 3: I'm you know, we bought a little farmhouse in Umbria,

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Speaker 3: so just south of the Tuscan border.

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Speaker 2: Great food in Umbria, Yeah, tuffles in the fall, you

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Speaker 2: have lentils and you know, boar, it's great.

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Speaker 3: I know, it's really it's a really special place. So

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Speaker 3: I'm excited to spend more time there and to learn

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Speaker 3: some Italian.

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Speaker 2: But what about Spain of France.

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Speaker 3: Spain so France. Well, I kind of told this like

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Speaker 3: now now it's kind of food. A famous story about

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Speaker 3: my dad taking me. My mom was doing a filming

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Speaker 3: something in London when I was ten. We still lived

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Speaker 3: in Los Angeles, and we all made the trip over

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Speaker 3: to visit her, and then my dad took me to

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Speaker 3: Paris for the weekend and just he and I and

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Speaker 3: we stayed at the Ritz and we went to the

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Speaker 3: Pompei dou, We went to the Louver, we went to

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Speaker 3: all museums, and my main thing was that I wanted

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Speaker 3: to eat French fries, like actual French fries. So that

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Speaker 3: was the first thing we did when we checked into

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Speaker 3: the hotel, is that I ordered French fries. And he

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Speaker 3: took me all around, you know, we were eating all

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Speaker 3: kinds of things. And on the way back to London,

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Speaker 3: he said, do you know why I took you to Paris,

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Speaker 3: just you and I? And I said no, and he said,

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Speaker 3: because I wanted you to see Paris for the first

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Speaker 3: time with a man who will always love you no

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Speaker 3: matter what.

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Speaker 2: So sweet. I mean, what you've been talking about is

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Speaker 2: memories of a man who loved food, loved you, wanted

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Speaker 2: to take you and indulge in new experiences to do

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Speaker 2: with eating and cooking and spending time with you. And

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Speaker 2: I think that you know that is about what we do.

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Speaker 2: Food is memory and food is love.

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Speaker 1: Oh, everyone, hope you will sorry to be familiar.

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Speaker 5: I just am because I'm here. They always look.

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Speaker 2: Like what.

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Speaker 1: He's quite familiar that hello.

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Speaker 2: I can't say how many times when arriving in the

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Speaker 2: River Cafe in a taxi the driver will turned around

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Speaker 2: to me and say, is this the restaurant or Jamie

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Speaker 2: Oliver cooked the other day? One even informed me that

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Speaker 2: the River Cafe was owned by Jamie, and I thought,

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Speaker 2: why correct him? He is a prodigal son or the

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Speaker 2: brother who knows that when he walks in the door

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Speaker 2: of the restaurant he is home.

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Speaker 5: Like the old days.

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Speaker 2: When was the last time you're here?

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Speaker 1: I try and get here at least two or three

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Speaker 1: times a year if I'm lucky, and I have to say,

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Speaker 1: it's a bit like therapy really see Charles, which always

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Speaker 1: makes me very happy. We normally go through the same

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Speaker 1: old jokes and then crack onto a bit of new news,

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Speaker 1: friends and family. But there's lots of nostalgia, isn't there.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things you always said is

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Speaker 1: that you love the reset of coming back to the

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Speaker 1: River gap, something you and.

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Speaker 5: Beggsy always said. Yeah, as you go out.

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Speaker 1: Into the world, and then it's quite nice to get

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Speaker 1: back to your roots and taste a bit of that

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Speaker 1: get that River Cafe experience again. It's like being home,

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Speaker 1: which is lovely.

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Speaker 2: Jamie came to work with us when he was just

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Speaker 2: about twenty, I guess almost thirty years ago. Rose Gray

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Speaker 2: interviewed him for the job and as always said, it

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Speaker 2: was love at first sight.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Euthie. Well, I love that. I remember the

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Speaker 1: first time Rose interviewed me.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I had been working at the Neil Street restaurant

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Speaker 1: for a year and a half and I knew it

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Speaker 1: was time for me to move on. And I just

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Speaker 1: read this book, the first River Cafe book, Blue, and

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Speaker 1: it just like changed everything. It was like it's like

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Speaker 1: a moment because just from a design point of view

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Speaker 1: and a feeling point of view and the black and

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Speaker 1: white reportage photos, and it was like fresh air and

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Speaker 1: I knew I had to get there, so I owned

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Speaker 1: up and I came in. I was quite skin and

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Speaker 1: I had my first suit that was a really cheap suit. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: it was if it had gone near a candle. We

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Speaker 1: had gone up in flames so quickly, and I turned

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Speaker 1: up in a suit with a terrible tie because my

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Speaker 1: dad always said, like, make an effort. And I remember

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Speaker 1: the head chef at the time and all the chefs

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Speaker 1: looking around just thinking like he's in a suitcase.

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Speaker 5: You don't really wear suits.

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Speaker 1: Of the River customers, but we we definitely bonded on them.

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Speaker 1: I think Ravioli was the place that we kind of

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Speaker 1: connected and then the rest was history.

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Speaker 2: Then did you come straight away? Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I couldn't wait.

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Speaker 1: And it was like it was an amazing time because

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously you always look back with romance, but

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Speaker 1: it was an amazing time in Britain and the River

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Speaker 1: Cafe was on fire and had come from you know,

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Speaker 1: such humble beginnings. But was this extraordinary, unconventional John doing

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Speaker 1: incredible things, run of course by Ruthie in the amazing team,

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Speaker 1: but you know, cool Britannia, the music scene, the fashion scene,

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Speaker 1: the photography scene, the part scene. I remember cooking with

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Speaker 1: you for a new labor before they got in and

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Speaker 1: during they got in, and and I remember the Millennium

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Speaker 1: Dome as a sketch on a tablecloth, and I remember

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Speaker 1: it as a as a model that was just a

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Speaker 1: few meters away from the pastry section while making chocolate Nemesis.

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Speaker 1: And then I remember the real one.

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Speaker 2: Did you do you remember I was I was nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was nineteen years old when I came here,

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Speaker 1: and I was.

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Speaker 2: Ninety wondered Blair when the election wasn't ninety seven. And then,

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Speaker 2: as you said, there were a kind of excitement, a

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Speaker 2: kind of melding also politics and food and as you say,

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Speaker 2: culture and excitement. I certainly remember Rose calling me up.

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Speaker 2: I think I was away clearly when you were. When

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Speaker 2: you came through an interview in the suit, I would

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Speaker 2: have remembered it. And she said, you know, Ruthy, this

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Speaker 2: one you're going to love this.

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Speaker 4: This is somebody else.

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Speaker 5: I was so keen.

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Speaker 1: I was so keen, and it felt like a family

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Speaker 1: straight away, and I'd grown up obviously in a family restaurant.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: My last bit of advice from my dad to me

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Speaker 1: was like just whoever you work for, just treat their

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Speaker 1: business like yours. And you haven't got one job, You've

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Speaker 1: got every job. If the phone rings picked it up,

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Speaker 1: if your floor needs moping, moping. And I remember just

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Speaker 1: sort of coming to the River Cafe and it actually

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Speaker 1: felt like a family, which is actually it is more

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Speaker 1: rare than it's not that common even now in restaurants.

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Speaker 1: What you and Rose were doing was so untraditional from

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Speaker 1: what the kind of machine teaches.

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Speaker 5: I remember.

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Speaker 1: I remember thinking about crying for about three weeks, not

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Speaker 1: because of you or the team, but just because of

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Speaker 1: the stress of a new menu twice a day.

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Speaker 5: Was completely outside of what I knew.

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Speaker 1: But then you get used to it, and I learned

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Speaker 1: what you created was thinkers. Yeah, people that could adjust

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Speaker 1: and react to seasons, and everything that was happening in

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Speaker 1: the industry was about protocol and structures and safety, whereas

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Speaker 1: we I don't know, it was so exciting to have

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Speaker 1: two women as bosses and owners. I think very male

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Speaker 1: driven kitchens, and I'm not saying this for any effect,

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Speaker 1: like quite aggressive, often flooded with drugs, and it was

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Speaker 1: quite scary. Yeah, And I knew those kitchens and I'd

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Speaker 1: worked in London and abroad and things like that. So

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Speaker 1: it was, you know, even when I come in today,

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Speaker 1: you can see there's this lovely fifty to fifty balance

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Speaker 1: of them. And that's the holy Grail, I think. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think if.

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Speaker 5: You skew one way or the other, you can get issues.

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Speaker 1: But you know, it's but the thinking was so different.

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Speaker 2: One of the amazing trajectories was when we did a

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Speaker 2: film called what was it called A Christmas at the

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Speaker 2: Christmas at the River Curvet, and that was a film

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Speaker 2: that you know, really I remember, you know you've fried mushrooms,

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Speaker 2: didn't you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well we did, I think Paul Ketta and Ret Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then I think I was on HOTS two one night,

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Speaker 1: and obviously I can look at it back now sort

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Speaker 1: of seeing because I think, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 5: You were filming for.

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Speaker 1: A couple of weeks, the show that you were making,

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Speaker 1: and I wasn't supposed to be working that night. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I ever told you this, I don't

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Speaker 1: know that. So the night that I was in the

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Speaker 1: background of your your program, I wasn't supposed to be working.

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Speaker 1: I was off, and my wife Jewels was off as well,

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Speaker 1: and she worked at the River Cafe in the front

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Speaker 1: of house. We hadn't had a night off together for

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Speaker 1: ages and the phone rang about four o'clock and one

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Speaker 1: of the team had gone sick jewels, you know, with

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Speaker 1: all the best in the world.

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Speaker 5: I had to come and put the shift in.

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Speaker 1: But that's when the crew was there, and actually they

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Speaker 1: were kind of in the way because I was catching

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Speaker 1: my tail because I was an hour and a half

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Speaker 1: late for the shift to cover someone and I was

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Speaker 1: running Hots two, which as you know, is one of

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Speaker 1: your busiest sections. I'm sure it still is now. But

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Speaker 1: it was free to miss the tagleteleia I remember with

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Speaker 1: Girol's and Risotto, remember I do, I do remember, and

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Speaker 1: the slow of course.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think anything of it, and the night went

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Speaker 1: out on TV like many months later, maybe six months later.

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Speaker 1: Possibly I didn't know I was in it because I

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Speaker 1: was working. But then the phones started to ring. The

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Speaker 1: next day, literally the next day I came in.

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Speaker 2: I would say that I came in that morning and said, wow, Jamie,

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Speaker 2: you did a really great, great thing with those mushrooms.

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Speaker 2: You were amazing on television. And then the phone rang,

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Speaker 2: and I can remember where it was. The phone used

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Speaker 2: to hang up on a hook in the kitchen just

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Speaker 2: when you came in. It was before we had the

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Speaker 2: really open kitchen, and it was a call for you

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Speaker 2: from Pat Lewellyn came over to me like, Ruthie. Somebody

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Speaker 2: just called me up and asked me if I wanted

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Speaker 2: to do a screen test? What's a screen test? Should

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Speaker 2: I go? And we didn't know anything, and then they said, Ruthie.

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Speaker 2: The newspapers called up and said do I want to

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Speaker 2: do it? Calm? Can I go?

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Speaker 6: Sure?

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Speaker 5: Damien.

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Speaker 2: Then a supermarket is called up cold and I say

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Speaker 2: that within a very short time, you had a column

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Speaker 2: in a newspaper, a television show, an advertising campaign with

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Speaker 2: the supermarket, and they knew, they knew that you could

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Speaker 2: do all this, and you showed them that you could

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Speaker 2: and you did.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when I think about it, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: remember when I had my twenty years anniversary and there

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Speaker 1: was loads of people together, and to think that it

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Speaker 1: really genuinely does come back to that phone court four

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Speaker 1: o'clock saying can you cover.

349
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Speaker 2: Some weeks ago? Ian Wright and his beautiful family were

350
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Speaker 2: sitting here in the River Cafe garden celebrating Nancy, his

351
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Speaker 2: wife's birthday, Ruthie the waiter said to me, please go

352
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Speaker 2: and ask him to do a podcast, especially for all

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Speaker 2: of us. We know he loves to eat, but we

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Speaker 2: want to know more about him. He is our hero.

355
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Speaker 2: Ian does a lot that I could never dream of achieving,

356
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Speaker 2: for instance, kicking footballs into nets. But we do share

357
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Speaker 2: a lot as well, concern for healthy eating for children,

358
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Speaker 2: advocacy for social justice, a more fair society, and an

359
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Speaker 2: end to racial discrimination. Today, on table four, we're going

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Speaker 2: to get to know each other better, discussing all this

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Speaker 2: and more, including having delicious lunches with our family. Thank

362
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Speaker 2: you so much for doing this. Nice and you're going

363
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Speaker 2: to stay for lunch? Yes, yeskay, because you do love

364
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Speaker 2: to eat out. Yes, I see you here and you

365
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Speaker 2: always seem so happy. Did you eat out as a child.

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Speaker 5: No, This is probably why I love eating out so much.

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Speaker 5: I didn't actually start eating out until obviously, I think

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Speaker 5: I'm probably twenty one. Yeah, I didn't have a lot

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Speaker 5: of experiences of going to restaurants, and even when I

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Speaker 5: started doing that, I started eating past the very late

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Speaker 5: in my life, and my mum never There wasn't a

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Speaker 5: lot of variety, a lot of West Indian stew chicken.

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Speaker 5: It was curry, golt, mutton, tripe, pigs, trotter's oxtail, white rice,

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Speaker 5: rice with peas, boiled dumplings. So it was that kind

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Speaker 5: of food all the way up until that point. And

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Speaker 5: I remember when I started playing football in Crystal Palace,

377
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Speaker 5: I used to get very nervous about going to like

378
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Speaker 5: we used to have to go to hotels, you used

379
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Speaker 5: to have to go to restaurants and communal eat all

380
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Speaker 5: of us together. And I was very insecure about it

381
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Speaker 5: because I didn't know I didn't know foods. So and

382
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Speaker 5: then we had older players who were really they were

383
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Speaker 5: quite mean. Let's say things like, you know, you know

384
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Speaker 5: you've got duffin wires on there, you know you've got

385
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Speaker 5: sour ta potatoes, And they'd say things like do you

386
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Speaker 5: know you don't even have to spell duffing wa? You

387
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Speaker 5: know what I mean? Do you know what potatoes are?

388
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Speaker 5: Can you afford steak? So what I would do is

389
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Speaker 5: I would I would end up then getting my mum

390
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Speaker 5: to make me something. I'd go down so the boss

391
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Speaker 5: would see me and then I'd say for a five

392
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Speaker 5: minut and then I'd leave and get my food warmed

393
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Speaker 5: up by the people in the kitchen, and I'd eat

394
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Speaker 5: in my in my hotel room. And that's what we

395
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,400
Speaker 5: used to do when we was younger. You to all

396
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Speaker 5: eat either in the bedroom, in the living room in

397
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Speaker 5: front of television or stuff like that. So I was

398
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Speaker 5: more comfortable doing that. But my problem was insecurity about

399
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Speaker 5: ordering the food. So you know, it's intimidating. It was,

400
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,399
Speaker 5: and it was intimidating to the point where the manager,

401
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,640
Speaker 5: I've done it a few a few times, about three

402
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,720
Speaker 5: or four times, you didn't see me at dinner, and

403
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Speaker 5: I remember in the morning he said, where are you.

404
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 5: I'm not seeing you at the dinner. That's how I

405
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Speaker 5: get together. And then I explained to him why, and

406
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Speaker 5: then he kind of sorted that out for me. He

407
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 5: had a word with them. You know, obviously, you know

408
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 5: it didn't help because obviously when people it was it was,

409
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 5: it didn't help. But then I just I just blasted

410
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 5: through it. And so offer the back of that, yeah,

411
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,399
Speaker 5: you know, you start to because you get into a

412
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Speaker 5: situation where you can go to nice restaurants and so

413
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Speaker 5: when I love it.

414
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Speaker 2: So when you talk about being excellent at your sport,

415
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Speaker 2: being able to do what you do so well and

416
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Speaker 2: that you are on a team, and then going to

417
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,879
Speaker 2: a meal time was painful, and it was painful because

418
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 2: you were made to feel unable to feel it in.

419
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Speaker 5: Theory, to be honest, if it was about I was

420
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Speaker 5: twenty one. In fact, it just turned twenty two when

421
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 5: I joined Crystal Palace, so it was very late for me.

422
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 5: A lot of my experiences started to come as learning

423
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Speaker 5: on the job, about mixing with people, different people, worldly people,

424
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Speaker 5: you know, knowing you know, even just the knife and

425
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Speaker 5: forks from you know outside in you know, knowing what

426
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Speaker 5: to do. You know, you sit there and you're nervous,

427
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Speaker 5: and so those were the kind of intimidating things about

428
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Speaker 5: going to a restaurant or eating with people that used

429
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Speaker 5: to really frighten me because I never we ate on

430
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Speaker 5: our laps literally all the way through.

431
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Speaker 2: It's obviously was your mother working. Was there a table

432
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Speaker 2: where you could sit.

433
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Speaker 5: No, the kitchen wasn't big enough for a table for

434
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Speaker 5: the four of us, So it was my it was

435
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Speaker 5: my mom, my stepdad, my older brother, me and my sister.

436
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Speaker 5: So you know, there wasn't enough space for all of

437
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Speaker 5: us to sit and have that dinner and have that chat.

438
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 5: We've never done that. You know, that's something that's happened

439
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 5: to me later in my life.

440
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: Would you tell me about Arson Venger?

441
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 5: Wow? The thing with him, Ruphy, is that he was

442
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 5: how can I say, a visionary, a visionary in the

443
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 5: way he came and changed the diet. Are we talking

444
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 5: about nineteen ninety six, ninety five ninety six when he

445
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 5: got there, and you know, food for Arson Vinger was

446
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 5: fuel to perform. He came in and he changed the

447
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 5: diet from steak and chips and anything you wanted to

448
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,199
Speaker 5: proper food, like everything that is good for you. But

449
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 5: the thing what it was with all the vegetables and

450
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 5: the rice and the chickens steamed, you know, no seasoning,

451
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 5: no salt, no salt, no seasoning, no nothing. All we

452
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 5: could do is drink water and eat this bland food.

453
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 2: Where was he from.

454
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 5: It's kind of Austrian French, it's on that border. And

455
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 5: when he came in, it's the first time I realized

456
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 5: that it's not about liking what you're eating. It's the

457
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 5: fact that you have to be eating this for that

458
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 5: slow sugar release that you need when you're performing at

459
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 5: a level where you need your energy and your energy

460
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 5: has to be there constantly. This is why sweet things

461
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 5: and certain things to shoot you up like that during

462
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 5: the game, you'll have to come down because if you

463
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 5: shoot up, you have to come down. So this is

464
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 5: why pasta and broccoli and cabbage and carrots and all

465
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 5: those vegetables they give you that slow sugar that burns continually,

466
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 5: so you can stay at a certain level and you

467
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 5: can continue to perform. And it was very difficult at

468
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 5: the start, but when you started to see everybody doing it,

469
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 5: and you could see and obviously we had vitamins to

470
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 5: go alongside that. But when you saw everybody starting to

471
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 5: do in it and enjoying it, then they're taking it

472
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 5: into their home lives. They do the same at home.

473
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 5: Then all of a sudden, you're realizing this is for

474
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 5: us to perform to the best of our ability, to

475
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 5: the point where when you go to restaurants you'd almost

476
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 5: feel guilty to have anything that wasn't going to enhance you.

477
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 5: You know, ars Vengas, he had no problems after the

478
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 5: game for you to have a sugar rush like a

479
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 5: donut or something. But then Monday or is that you've

480
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 5: got to be back on that. You train really.

481
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 4: Hard it's tough.

482
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 5: And then what happens is is that you realize that

483
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 5: if you're not eating right, you're not taking the vitman's right.

484
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 5: You will see that you are, you're lagging behind the

485
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 5: guys who are doing it religiously, to the point where

486
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 5: again you go into a dressing room, Rufie, and you

487
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 5: know it is very competitive, very competitive, especially when you

488
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 5: go into a dressing room where you're trying to attain

489
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 5: and achieve everybody. The margins are very small. Yeah, we

490
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 5: practice and we're trained to a level where we say, well,

491
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 5: they better be training as hard as we are, because

492
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 5: if not, we are going to destroy them. And that

493
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 5: is what we were striving for.

494
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 7: On the mains, while we've got these beautiful, really sweet

495
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 7: grapes at the moment which pass so well with the grouse.

496
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: And there's turbot and sea bass, oh my worms, fish

497
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 2: you can have everything. We have had people come and

498
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 2: order everything on the until they stay for a month

499
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: or per month. Yeah, name Judy Dench is not just

500
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: a national and international treasure. She's an interplanetary treasure. If

501
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 2: there is life on Mars. They're talking about her most

502
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 2: recent performance. I always say a recipe is half science

503
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: and half poetry, and so we're going to skip the

504
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 2: science and read the poetry. How about that?

505
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 8: Yes, well, I would love to have read a recipe,

506
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 8: or even given you a recipe, but we'll come to

507
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 8: that later. But you are talking to the worst cookie

508
00:25:53,600 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 8: in Britain. And wasn't a sonic about food? But I

509
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 8: just know this one poem, but it's some Hilaire Belloc,

510
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 8: and it's about Henry King, Henry King, Henry King.

511
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: Here he goes.

512
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 8: The chief defect of Henry King was chewing little bits

513
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 8: of string. At last he swallowed some that tied itself

514
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 8: in ugly knots inside. Physicians of the utmost fame were

515
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 8: called at once, But when they came, they answered, as

516
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 8: they took their fees, there is no cure for this disease.

517
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 8: Henry will very soon be dead. His parents stood about

518
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 8: his bed, lamenting his untimely death. When Henry cried with

519
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 8: latest breath, Oh my friends, be warned by me that breakfast, dinner,

520
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 8: lunch and tea are all the human frame requires. With that,

521
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 8: the wretched child expires.

522
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: The wretched child. So as he worketh this poem, he

523
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 2: was quite a lectural Bellock, wasn't he. He liked to

524
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 2: tell everyone what to do and children how to be polite.

525
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 8: It's ather sad, it was rather grim.

526
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 2: I think, well it's beautiful. I think it's you know,

527
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 2: there's a message, right, don't snack? Is that the message?

528
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: Or you might don't snack? So doing the menus. Eliza

529
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 2: had a blank sheet of paper she came in the morning.

530
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 2: It's rather like your house. You go in the fridge,

531
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: you see what's there, you see what's been ordered. You've

532
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 2: sort of also, you know, we're always thinking about what

533
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 2: I always think, what would I want to for lunch today?

534
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 8: Or I'm so you're not coming to my house Bridge

535
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 8: and I beg you are.

536
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 7: I was so excited to make this beautiful clam taggerini,

537
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 7: which I know is one of Ruthie's favorite pastors, where

538
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 7: we cook the bongolay in advance with garlic and parsi

539
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 7: stalks in chili, and then we pick all the clams

540
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 7: out of their shells and reduce the white wine and

541
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 7: the olive oil and the butter, and then we toss

542
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 7: that through fresh handcut taggoerini, which is one of my

543
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 7: favorite things that I've ever had at a bit of

544
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 7: a cafe. And we've also got this amazing slow cooked

545
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 7: pheasant and partridge sauce which is a ragou that we

546
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 7: make with lots of different wildbirds at this time of year,

547
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 7: and we put chestnuts and mince panchatta in and that's

548
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 7: really wonderful.

549
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:32,959
Speaker 8: Now we're really talking.

550
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: We do write our menu every day.

551
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 8: It makes it special and exciting, which is what a

552
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 8: restaurant should be and isn't very much.

553
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: What was it like when you came to London and

554
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 2: food wise? Were you on a budget? Did you have

555
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: to cook?

556
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 4: Eat out?

557
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: What did you do? Never? Never?

558
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 8: I have to tell you a story when I was

559
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 8: awarded the OB and my agent at the time had

560
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 8: been in Central with me, Julian Belfridge. He came down

561
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 8: to lunch and I gave him lamb cutlets. I made

562
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 8: an enormous effort. He finished them and whatever I gave

563
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 8: him I can't remember for a dessert. And he sat

564
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 8: back and he said, well, I'll tell you something, Judy,

565
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 8: He said, you didn't get the Obe for cooking. Nothing

566
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 8: like having a support of It's good to be told,

567
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 8: isn't it.

568
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: It's good? There was What did you eat? There you

569
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: are going to.

570
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 8: When we were old that when we got well, when

571
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 8: we got to central, Oh, it was it was glorious.

572
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: We used to go to it.

573
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 8: Was somewhere in Kensington High Street. But we used to

574
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 8: also go to a restaurant called a Capernina in Soho

575
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 8: and that was the greatest treat.

576
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 2: So that was Italian food. That was Italian food. It

577
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: was absolutely and it was affordable. You could do so

578
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 2: they are on a student budget.

579
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 8: Just about just about it. But it were nice to

580
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 8: be taken there. I must say, that was an enormous treat.

581
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: Do you remember a kind of multicultural restaurants? You remember

582
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: Indian because a lot of you know, the cheapest food,

583
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: certainly when I came in the sixties was Greek, Indian, Chinese.

584
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 8: I mean that was a huge treat to be able

585
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 8: to eat, you know, to eat Chinese and as always say, Italian,

586
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 8: and it was.

587
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: A real luxury.

588
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 8: And suddenly to be able to go to go or

589
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 8: be taken to somewhere and you have the luxury of

590
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 8: really the choice of things to have to eat. And

591
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 8: you know, I'll never take that for granted.

592
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 3: I don't think.

593
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: Last week I spelled on a paddel with Vanessa King,

594
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: or celebrating International Women's Day. Listening to Vanessa that evening,

595
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: it became apparent that it really wasn't necessary for the

596
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: rest of us to be there. It was her views

597
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 2: on social justice, women in business, creativity and leadership that

598
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: everybody wanted to hear most of all me. Her path

599
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: towards Chief Business Officer of Conde Nasty International is a

600
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: story of a young girl from Kenya a chieving remarkable

601
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: amount in a British world through sheer, intelligence, motivation and determination.

602
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 9: The way is that vocals is each magazine kind of

603
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 9: dominates a floor.

604
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 4: So I worked on GQ for years.

605
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 9: I was running that business and I was that's the

606
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 9: first floor, and then you graduate up in Bogue's a

607
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 9: fifth floor. There was always this idea that nobody eats

608
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 9: at Vogue, you know, so people would deliver you'd see

609
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 9: in the reception of Vogue House, you know, cakes and

610
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 9: these amazing things being delivered, and we'd all sort of scoff, Oh, well,

611
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 9: you know they'll be in the bin. No one eats

612
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 9: them up there. And actually it's a big misconception because

613
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 9: we were, yeah, we work really hard. It's a really

614
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 9: hard working team, the Vogue team. I still now I'm

615
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 9: overseeing all of the brands at Conde in US, but

616
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 9: I still sit with Edward on the fifth floor and he.

617
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 4: Loves to eat. We love to eat.

618
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 9: We love to plan a dinner. We love to incorporate

619
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 9: a bit of our culture into dinner. So even when

620
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 9: we did his wedding, his wedding was at long leads

621
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 9: and it helped him to plan that.

622
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 4: It was amazing. But we were saying, you know, we.

623
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 9: Need to have John Off in there, which caterist can. Yeah,

624
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 9: we did, and we had you know, he loves spicy

625
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 9: food anytime he comes here, or can I have chili

626
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 9: and chili island, So we had chili sauces and everything.

627
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 9: So it's talking about food eating. A lot of times

628
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 9: he and I will eat our lunch at desks across

629
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 9: from each other. So he'll have steam vegetables and you know,

630
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 9: some fish or chicken or something, and I'll have sushi.

631
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 9: But we sit together and eat it if we're doing

632
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 9: a working lunch. Otherwise I'm out with clients.

633
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: Where were you born?

634
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 9: So from the very beginning, I was born in Kenya,

635
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 9: in Nanuki. My father is Kenyan and my mother is

636
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 9: from Saint Kits in the Caribbean, s and Kittenita's tiny

637
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 9: into the islands, and they met here in London. It's

638
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 9: kind of a strange pairing in the seventies, and it

639
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 9: was quite a radical relationship.

640
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 4: There's because.

641
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 9: At that time Africans and people from the Caribbean did

642
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 9: not spend that much time together. They certainly didn't end

643
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 9: up in relationship. And London is the great sort of

644
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 9: unifying space, right It's a true melting plot I think

645
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 9: in the world. They met here, they fell in love,

646
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 9: and my mother moved with my father to this strange

647
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 9: land where she knew no language or the culture. Lots

648
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 9: of her family didn't speak to her because of the move,

649
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 9: and indeed lots of his family didn't speak to him

650
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 9: because someone, yeah, from a different culture, and he was

651
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 9: a very eligible bachelor. Was it a small village, quite

652
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 9: a small village, yes, and it's in a sort of

653
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 9: mountainous area. His family were in Coffee, so yeah.

654
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 4: Quite rural. But they were very well off.

655
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 9: But my mother had a very difficult time settling in there.

656
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 9: And this is where food comes in, because she was

657
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 9: encountering women who didn't understand her literally and figuratively. She

658
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 9: only spoke English, and they often spoke five languages, you know,

659
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 9: and so the language barrier was there. She didn't speak Swahili,

660
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 9: she didn't speak the dialect as well, and so food

661
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 9: was her way to connect with people. She used to

662
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 9: say to me, it's quicker to learn addition than to

663
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 9: learn a language. And I think one of the most

664
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 9: ingratiating things you can do in a new culture is,

665
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 9: you know, know some basic words to greet people. And

666
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 9: she looked at food in the same way. If you

667
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 9: could cook the food really well, it was a show

668
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 9: of respect. So she learned to cook, which I also

669
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 9: found strange because she had cooks and nannies and all

670
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:35,439
Speaker 9: of those things.

671
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 4: But she loved to cook.

672
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: And she loved to cook before.

673
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, my grandmother was a great cook.

674
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 2: And grandmother and Saint Kitts.

675
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, so we're all over the place. But two we

676
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 9: went to live with my grandmother. My mother and father

677
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 9: got divorced. My mother came back to London to try

678
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 9: and re establish herself by a house and all of

679
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 9: those things, and we stayed in Saint Kit's with her,

680
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 9: visiting frequently with my grandmother so I was very young,

681
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 9: so I was stuck to her all the time. And

682
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 9: she is definitely the most powerful sort of figure in

683
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 9: my life.

684
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 4: My mother's a very powerful figure. We're very close. When

685
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 4: my grandmother is almost my heart, you know, and.

686
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 9: I gosh, I'm welling up even talking about her. It's

687
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 9: because when we spoke about this. No, she's not, but

688
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 9: she's very much alive in I think about her every day,

689
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 9: not only through food, but also just her advice was

690
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 9: amazing because it's so funny. It's really evocative thinking about this,

691
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 9: I'm getting emotional.

692
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 4: No, it's kind of happy to you know.

693
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 2: What was her food?

694
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 5: Like?

695
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 2: Describe was she in the kitchen all day long?

696
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 9: I don't remember her not wearing an apron or some

697
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 9: sort of overalls. So she made food that was needed,

698
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 9: constant nurturing, you know.

699
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 4: Her house was also.

700
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 9: Where everyone dropped in, so my sister and I lived

701
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 9: there on and off. Four of my cousins lived there,

702
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 9: my uncle's children, and then she was sort of everyone's grandmother.

703
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 9: So her house was Oh, it was so fun. It

704
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 9: was a wash with children all the time, and I

705
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 9: was the youngest, so I was always with her. I

706
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 9: slept in her bed, and I was literally on her

707
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 9: apen strings.

708
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 4: So her food was very rich. It was like.

709
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 9: Almost like a warm embrace, you know, hearty, and lots

710
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 9: of sort of stews and meats and heavily marinated delicious

711
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 9: comfort food dumplings, and you know, sort of starchy, delicious things.

712
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 9: And she kept her own little farm, at least it

713
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 9: felt like a farm to me. She grew her own vegetables,

714
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 9: She had her own fruit tree. She would graft her

715
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 9: own strains of mango. She grew herbs and things that

716
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 9: people would come and visit her to buy. And she

717
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 9: kept her own animals. And I used to help her

718
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 9: tend to those little gardens. And then she'd make up

719
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 9: these amazing dishes from food, and she'd tell me stories

720
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 9: of the food as well.

721
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 2: So did she grow up in poverty or did she

722
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: grow up any Yes, she did.

723
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 9: And I look at sort of my life now, which

724
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 9: is so much on her shoulders, and all of the

725
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 9: opportunity I have now, and I think about how important circumstances.

726
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 9: So she was a really intelligent woman. She was the

727
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 9: most prolific reader I ever knew. She was either cooking

728
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 9: or reading. But she was forced to leave school at fourteen.

729
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 9: Her mother was a She also had a slightly strange

730
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 9: parentage in that her father was.

731
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 4: Previously a slave and her mother.

732
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 2: Was So your great grandfather was a slave, yeah in

733
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 2: syn kids, Yeah, and probably like the Civil warab Yeah.

734
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 9: But her mother, which is really strange, was a Portuguese

735
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 9: woman from a slave owning family, so it's really really

736
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 9: unusual that way around. And her mother was not very

737
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 9: maternal at all, and so they fell upon hard times.

738
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 9: Her mother was seen, I think as having made bad decisions,

739
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 9: and so she didn't grow up surrounded, as I understand it,

740
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 9: by lots of love, and so she created this love

741
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 9: loving world. But the reason that it's important at how

742
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 9: she grew up is her food was very much work

743
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 9: of food.

744
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 4: You know, she made food.

745
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 9: That they would have made for men and women who

746
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,959
Speaker 9: worked picking cotton. She was picking cotton fourteen years old

747
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 9: in the fields, and then after that taking books under

748
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 9: the house to read them in the evening and cooking

749
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 9: and supporting the households and so on. So she had

750
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 9: this really eclectic upbringing where she really valued education and

751
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 9: missed her opportunity, I think, to have a full education.

752
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 4: But food was also the key joy.

753
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so would you sit down? Would you go

754
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 2: to school and then every evening come home and sit

755
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 2: down for dinner? Would that be a dinner on the

756
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 2: table for you? Yes?

757
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, So we would have great mounds of kind of

758
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 9: rice and vegetables and these kind of incredible and everybody

759
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 9: would pile in and pour in and go for second plates.

760
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 9: It wasn't a very formal sit and the table was

761
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 9: also off the kitchen, so it was kind of part

762
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 9: of the action, and it was just a really lovely

763
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 9: way to be connected with the people around you.

764
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: I'm often asked if it's intimidating cooking for celebrities who

765
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: come to the River Cafe. My response is that the

766
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 2: guests who really worry me are other chefs. It's a

767
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 2: bit like that today, as I'm about to interview the

768
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 2: interviewer mary Ella frost Rop, especially since I was watched

769
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 2: the subject for Guardian's Lunch with mary Ella, Mariella wrote,

770
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: despite such eloquence, Ruthie is a disaster of an interview.

771
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 2: My questions get longer as her answers get shorter, and

772
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 2: inevitably end with a question for me. She's all, don't

773
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: you think and do you find and have you noticed?

774
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: But I'm reminding myself that I'm not here with Marielle

775
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: the journalist.

776
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 4: But Mariella, my good friend.

777
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 6: A friend of mine, gave me a job in his

778
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 6: recording studio and so I did that until I left

779
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 6: for London. In Dublin, yeah, that's when I met you know,

780
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 6: all of the people that we have in common. I

781
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 6: recorded U two's first demo tapes when I was yeah,

782
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 6: fifteen and he was seventeen. He hates it when I

783
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 6: remind him that he's older. But yeah, that was all

784
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 6: when I was working at Keystone Studios. But after my

785
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 6: father died, I took the ferry from Dunleary with my.

786
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 2: Friend in London. Oh, you had another friend.

787
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 6: She didn't know she she just had an address for us.

788
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 6: There was a she had some Irish friends who were

789
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 6: living in a squat or friends of friends who were

790
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 6: living in a squat in Stoneleigh Street in West London,

791
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 6: actually not very far from here, off Latimer Road. And

792
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 6: we arrived there on a bright summer sunny morning and

793
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 6: were greeted at the door by just this crowd of

794
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 6: Irish men mostly And I was like married, What was

795
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 6: the point in coming all the way here if we're

796
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 6: just going to live with the whole house full of

797
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 6: Irish people. But they were incredible to us and made

798
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 6: they were so hospitable. Sixteen sixty, she's eighteen, and they

799
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 6: gave us a room that there was already two of

800
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 6: them living in, but we were allowed to share it.

801
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 6: I mean, there were amazing days. You know. I think

802
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 6: it was a really great time to be young. You know,

803
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 6: there was huge adversity, but at the same time life

804
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 6: just felt full of possibility and you could afford to

805
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 6: rent places for cheap.

806
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 3: You know.

807
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 6: We were only in the squad for about three months

808
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 6: and then I got a job at the Blushes on

809
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 6: the King's Road. I don't know if it's still There

810
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 6: was a wine bar and it used to be so

811
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 6: amazing on a Saturday. Then you know Bob Geldof and.

812
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 2: Paula because they live right around the corner, and they used.

813
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 6: To arrive on a Saturday morning at about eleven o'clock

814
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 6: at the tube station on the King's Road and then

815
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 6: they would promenade up the King's Road and they would

816
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 6: be followed by this sort of retinue of it was

817
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 6: like a medieval you know. It was like Henry the

818
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 6: Eighth that arrived and all these people would be following

819
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 6: along in their wake, and again it was like theater watching,

820
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 6: you know, and it was punk and it was just

821
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 6: incredible and exciting.

822
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: Do you remember what you ate at the time? Would

823
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 2: you would you go to restaurants or would you cook

824
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 2: at home? Or would you I'd cook it at home.

825
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 2: I'd cook at home.

826
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 6: Food wasn't great, and you know, it wasn't and I

827
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 6: didn't really care so much. I mean, I was so

828
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 6: obsessed with just survival and getting on, survival and getting on.

829
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 6: I mean, it was the nineteen seventies. It was quite

830
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 6: a bit of sort of beef berging yr and you know,

831
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 6: black Forest getter, nothing to write home about. Everyone was

832
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 6: eating spaghetti bolonnaise because that was very exotic and Italian,

833
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 6: but not Baudelais nouver. That was always quite exciting. Yeah,

834
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 6: I remember that through the eighties, but not so much

835
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 6: the food.

836
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 2: Really. Did you have a domestic life as well? Did

837
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: you live with anybody and have to think about a

838
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 2: kitchen or food or bringing shopping home or did you

839
00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 2: just basically food? Was you smoked and so I spoke

840
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 2: and drag Botel nouve.

841
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 6: But I did get married when I was eighteen to

842
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 6: another lost soul who's a wonderful and old friend of

843
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 6: mine now called Richard Jobson, who was the lead singer

844
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 6: in this punk band called the Skids.

845
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah Skids, Great, Yeah.

846
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 6: Into the valley working for the Yankee Dollar.

847
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 4: Come on.

848
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: Anywhere.

849
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 6: But Richard was a really interesting and unusual character. He

850
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 6: was another lost kid. He's left home at sixteen. He had,

851
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 6: you know, huge intellectual aspirations, many of which he went

852
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 6: on to realize a huge determination. And I think we

853
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 6: sort of fell together out of loneliness and we tried,

854
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 6: you know, we gave it our best shot for two kids,

855
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 6: and we stayed together till I was twenty one, so young.

856
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 6: So we had a domestic life then and very rudimentary.

857
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 6: I used to make things like grilled pork chops with

858
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 6: mustard on them, and a lot of potatoes, spaghetti bolonnais.

859
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 2: Cookbooks, do you remember using.

860
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 6: I had the Constant Spry cookbook that my mum had

861
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 6: given me because that was sort of her bible.

862
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 2: She came from an English family.

863
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 6: She's half Scottish, half English, was Scottish, she was Scottish really,

864
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 6: but she learned, you know, we used to.

865
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 4: She used to.

866
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 6: She taught me how to make love scass, which is

867
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 6: a it's a very rudimentary Norwegian stew, which is beef

868
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 6: and potatoes but cubed very small and cooked in their

869
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 6: own broth for quite a long period of time. And

870
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 6: she used to make these things called milkering, which are

871
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 6: that's sort of yogurts basically that Norwegians used to make.

872
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 6: And it was very weird because both she and my

873
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 6: stepmother used to make these yogurts. Once I left her

874
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 6: house and went went to live with my dad, every

875
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 6: cupboard you opened would have yogurt, you know.

876
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: Breeding. Yeah, was your father's second wife.

877
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 6: She wasn't They weren't married, but I mean Sheian, No,

878
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 6: she was Irish, but you obviously had an interest. They

879
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 6: all wanted to impress one. He had this thing, you know,

880
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 6: which clearly worked for every woman in his life. And

881
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 6: I don't think my mum and my stepmother were the

882
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 6: only ones either, So yeah, he had a.

883
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: Cooking for you know, seduction as well that people can remember.

884
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: Can you remember me or where you wanted to impress

885
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 2: somebody and you cooked.

886
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 6: I've never cooked when I wanted to impress.

887
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: Were you're joined by Judy Dirk, she said the same

888
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 2: thing