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Speaker 1: Twenty seventeen marks the anniversary of the Summer of Sam.

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Speaker 1: To mark the occasion, Pocketbooks is proud to release a

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Speaker 1: special anniversary edition E book of Son of Sam by

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Speaker 1: Lawrence D. Klausner. This is an incredible story of how

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Speaker 1: a single man, David Berkowitz, dubbed Son of Sam, the

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Speaker 1: demon haunted forty four caliber killer, killed six, wounded several others,

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Speaker 1: and terrorized millions of New Yorkers over eight known attacks

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Speaker 1: from July nineteen seventy six through August nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 1: It's also the story of the greatest man hunt in

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Speaker 1: the history of the New York Police Department, the intimate

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Speaker 1: narrative of the men assigned to tracking down a lone killer.

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Speaker 1: The police task Force investigated more than three thousand suspects,

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Speaker 1: some of them cops, before finally making an arrest. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, politicians watched a city writhe and panic. Newspapers

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Speaker 1: played upon the fears of their readers, and the criminal

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Speaker 1: justice system showed itself incapable of coping with the man

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Speaker 1: who committed such horrendous crimes. Download Summer of Sam by

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Speaker 1: Lawrence D. Klausner today. Royalties earned from the cell of

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Speaker 1: this book will be shared between the victims, where their

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Speaker 1: families and the off her Climb stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. Multiple capital

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Speaker 1: murder indictments handed down for murderers who left the Madison

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Speaker 1: County community devastated. Ronda Carlson is charged with eighteen counts

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Speaker 1: of capital murder, Christopher Henderson nineteen counts. Suspects were accused

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Speaker 1: of killing two adults, two children, in an unborn baby

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Speaker 1: back in then burning down the family's home. A seemingly

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Speaker 1: mild mannered couple now indide it for five murders, repeat

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Speaker 1: five murders. The husband's pregnant second wife. Did I read

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Speaker 1: that wrong? You're pregnant second wife? Okay, this is on

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Speaker 1: us soil. I don't know about illegal second wife. It's

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Speaker 1: less a pregnant one, two children, and the mother in

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Speaker 1: law and the unborn baby. They allegedly cut out of

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Speaker 1: her womb and stabbed. What joining me right now? Two

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Speaker 1: very special guests Joseph Scott Morgan, who is a death

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Speaker 1: scene investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University

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Speaker 1: also with me investigative reporter Cheryl White. Cheryl, what happened? Well,

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Speaker 1: this is a horrific crime. And you say second wife,

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Speaker 1: but he was still married to the first wife, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: So it's bigamy. Um, his wife, Ronda Carlson, and Christopher

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Speaker 1: Henderson are accused of killing his second wife. Um. She

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Speaker 1: was thirty five years old, and you said she was pregnant.

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Speaker 1: She was nine months pregnant, Nancy. She was about to

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Speaker 1: give birth a little Lauren Brooke. Um. But she was

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Speaker 1: also in the process of divorcing Christopher Henderson because she

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Speaker 1: had just discovered that he was already married to someone else.

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Speaker 1: She didn't know that when she married him, so she

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Speaker 1: had filed a restraining order against him. And what he

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Speaker 1: didn't know, apparently, was that she had installed a surveillance system.

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Speaker 1: She had a camera on the house where she was staying.

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Speaker 1: That was her mother's home. So guess what. There is

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Speaker 1: so much evidence that was caught on that surveillance camera. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that is perking my interest as surveillance camera. What do

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Speaker 1: you expect us to learn from the surveillance Erril, Why, Well,

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Speaker 1: according to what we've learned on that surveillance camera video, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, the relatives were able to pull up

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Speaker 1: on their cell phones as first responders were coming to

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Speaker 1: the scene of the fire at the home of Christine

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Speaker 1: Smallwood's mother, So they pulled it up and they were

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Speaker 1: showing first responders Christopher Henderson going into the house wearing

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Speaker 1: gloves and um. They also showed his wife, his first wife,

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Speaker 1: Ronda Carlson, shows her going in carrying a gas can.

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Speaker 1: Then later on that same surveillance camera video, you see

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Speaker 1: them leaving just before smoke starts pouring out of that house.

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Speaker 1: Whoa caught on camera? So the wife comes along for

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Speaker 1: the murders, Yeah, absolutely, she They were both there and

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Speaker 1: it's it's just really it's one of those things it's

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Speaker 1: hard to wrap your mind around because she was about

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Speaker 1: to give birth and as you mentioned when you described

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Speaker 1: this story, they are accused of actually cutting the fetus

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Speaker 1: out and stabbing the fetus. So that's why it's five

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Speaker 1: five murders. Kristen Smallwood the unborn child Lauren. Kristen's eight

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Speaker 1: year old son, Clayton Chambers, she'd been married before. Her mother,

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Speaker 1: Carol Smallwood sixty seven, was also there and Kristen's one

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Speaker 1: year old nephew Eli. Now they're both also not only

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Speaker 1: indicted on murder charges, but first degree arson charges also included.

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Speaker 1: And that's because Eli, again one year old, was stabbed,

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Speaker 1: but forensics say he actually died of asphyxiation in the fire. Sheryl,

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Speaker 1: Why it's almost more than I can take in, and

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Speaker 1: all I can focus on right now is seeking justice

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Speaker 1: for this family, this devastation right under our noses. Christopher

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Speaker 1: Matthew Henderson, aged forty Rhonda Carlson, aged forty two, now

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Speaker 1: suspected in the deaths of five people, nine months pregnant,

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Speaker 1: Kristen Henderson, nine months pregnant her unborn daughter, both stabbed

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Speaker 1: to death. According to police sources. The unborn child was

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Speaker 1: taken cut cut from Kristen's stomach and stabbed. Also murdered

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Speaker 1: Kristen's eight year old little boy, her mother, and there

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Speaker 1: one year old nephew. I'm just thinking back on how

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Speaker 1: helpless the twins were when they were first born, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: how helpless they were, and at one year old, how

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Speaker 1: helpless they were, at eight years old, how trusting they

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Speaker 1: were for what Joe Scott way in I think, let

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Speaker 1: me let me paint a really dark picture here for you.

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Speaker 1: If I can't get any darker. This one year old

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Speaker 1: who was stabbed, fancy uh died as a result of

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Speaker 1: not the stabbed woe, but of smoke annilation. So let's

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Speaker 1: think about this just for a second. After this person

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Speaker 1: had brutally stabbed and shot these individuals, he took time

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Speaker 1: two remove this child from the mother's wound, a term child,

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Speaker 1: and then stabbed the child to death. Now, all the while,

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Speaker 1: this little one year old is suffering from stab wounds,

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Speaker 1: while all of this is going on around it. Because

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Speaker 1: we know that as a result of the autopsy, this

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Speaker 1: child did not die of the stab wounds. They died

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Speaker 1: of smoke inhalation. So that little little Eli laid there

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Speaker 1: and suffered in this environment. That gives you, I think,

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Speaker 1: probably a depth of how evil this event is. When

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Speaker 1: I first saw it, and I've seen a lot of cases,

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Speaker 1: as you well know my career. Um, it just it

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Speaker 1: just punched me in the gut when I first read this,

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Speaker 1: and you you reflect back on this and you think

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Speaker 1: how much lower can some some person go in this context,

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Speaker 1: and it it doesn't seem like it gets much lower

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Speaker 1: than this. I was just thinking that Joseph got Morgan

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Speaker 1: for a DestinE investigator also forensic professor at Jacksonville State University.

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Speaker 1: Before I gave birth to the twins, it was let's see,

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Speaker 1: I gave birth on a Sunday. This must have been

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Speaker 1: Friday or Saturday evening. I tried to go my husband

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Speaker 1: want to go to a restaurant, and so I was

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Speaker 1: trying to walk into the restaurant and somebody turned to

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Speaker 1: him and said, you better get hurt to a hospital

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Speaker 1: because I got a bad feeling. And boy were they right,

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Speaker 1: because the next day I had an emergency since arian

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Speaker 1: section and I was so so physically messed up. Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott he drove me right to the front of the

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Speaker 1: hospital and left to go park. I couldn't even walk.

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Speaker 1: I laid down on the floor in the entryway the

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Speaker 1: lobby of the hospital, and to get out of everybody's way,

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Speaker 1: I went and kind of like moved over inlaid under

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Speaker 1: a sofa because I could not take another step. And

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Speaker 1: this woman is nine months pregnant. She was killed. Kristen

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Speaker 1: was murdered just one week. It's not just about divorce.

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Speaker 1: One week after she files a protective order against him,

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Speaker 1: and during that hearing, it was revealed Henderson was also

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Speaker 1: married to Carlson. I mean, there you are in court

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Speaker 1: with a protective order hearing, which I can only imagine

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Speaker 1: what that was about. And you find out the guy's

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Speaker 1: married to somebody else. Still, so why didn't they just

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Speaker 1: go forward with the divorce? Cheryl White, Why did it

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Speaker 1: have to come down to five dead bodies? If this

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Speaker 1: is not a death penalty case, I don't know what is, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: I just don't know what is. Well and Nancy also

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Speaker 1: consider this as we paint this picture. Can you imagine

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Speaker 1: the first responders. I mean they are responding to a

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Speaker 1: house her and outside there is a little Eli one

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Speaker 1: year old. His mom is screaming for her baby. She

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Speaker 1: knows he's still inside. They go in and they start

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Speaker 1: finding the victims, one by one by one. It was

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Speaker 1: so bad that doctors advised that they be monitored for

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Speaker 1: years because of lingering trauma. So this is how the

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Speaker 1: whole thing went down. Okay, we're talking about a big

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Speaker 1: misted and his wife, killing the second wife nine months pregnant,

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Speaker 1: and wiping out her whole family five dead, including cutting

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Speaker 1: the unborn child out of her nine months pregnant stomach,

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Speaker 1: murdering her mother, a one year old child. And this

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Speaker 1: photo of her, of Kristen with her little boy, her

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Speaker 1: little boys Clayton, age eight. This picture that I keep

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Speaker 1: looking out of them is you know how you, uh,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, you know how you put two cans on

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Speaker 1: the end of a string and you try to talk

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Speaker 1: to each other like a phone. The little eight year

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Speaker 1: old boy, Clayton, has one ken to his ear and

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Speaker 1: the mom is holding the other ken to her pregnant tummy.

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Speaker 1: And there's a precious, precious image. They're both smiling so

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Speaker 1: big about the new baby and and this and when

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Speaker 1: then I looked at their mug shots and I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about big Amus Christopher Matthew Henderson, aged forty and first

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Speaker 1: wife Rhonda Jene Carlson, aged forty two. They're looking right

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Speaker 1: at the camera like they've got and their attitude in

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Speaker 1: their face says it all. It's like they're angry, they're arrested.

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Speaker 1: It looks defiant. I just don't understand. So they go

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Speaker 1: for a hearing, Joe Scott morgan um talking about a

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Speaker 1: protective order, but then she petitions the court to withdraw

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Speaker 1: her divorce based on the fact her husband was still

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Speaker 1: married to his first wife. So their marriage was never legal.

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Speaker 1: She was granted the order of protection based on her

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Speaker 1: testimony that he had hit her, and she wrote in

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Speaker 1: her filings, he has lied about everything since we first

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Speaker 1: met and as a result of that. Now I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at the photo as we talk, Cheryl and Joe Scott

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Speaker 1: of her nephew just one year old, Eli. He happened

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Speaker 1: to be there when I think of my babies at

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Speaker 1: one year old. I mean, Joe Scott, what in the

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Speaker 1: hey were these two thinking? I have no idea the

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Speaker 1: the first wife is claiming that she was, you know,

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Speaker 1: just kind of an innocent party in this whole Wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, you don't tromp around a five victim murder

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Speaker 1: and claim you were just there. I mean, the video

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Speaker 1: catches them walking in in gloves and carrying a gas can.

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing about Arson. Joe Scott and I've

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Speaker 1: prosecuted many Arson cases. If they had been successful, it

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Speaker 1: may never have been proved that this was even a crime.

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Speaker 1: It could have been chalked off, chalked up as an accident.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing about Arson. You gotta have a really

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Speaker 1: good investigator to wade through, to sip through an Arsen

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Speaker 1: seemed to prove a crime even occurred. So not only

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Speaker 1: did they go there premeditatedly with gloves and a gas can,

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Speaker 1: that shows there was planning. She was with him. What

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Speaker 1: do you mean she just went along. Yeah, she claims

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Speaker 1: that she stood in the four of the house while

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Speaker 1: he took the gas canon went inside. Of course, the

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Speaker 1: CCTV UH images uh indicates something else. Let me tell

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Speaker 1: you what else. Regarding the arson, the investigators for the

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Speaker 1: state did a fantastic job withou they'ven't gone so far

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Speaker 1: in the appearing thus far to talk about splash patterns,

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Speaker 1: and this gives us an idea is to how the

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Speaker 1: gas or the accelerant was splashed about. Just imagine if

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Speaker 1: someone spills milk somewhere and it creates a stain, you

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Speaker 1: go back to wipe it up, and there's still that

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Speaker 1: residual pattern, just like that with gas. And this area

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Speaker 1: is burned in where the splash pattern takes place, so

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Speaker 1: you can see where he dumped this gas. After after

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Speaker 1: they had both perpetrated this horrible crime on his family

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Speaker 1: and just decimated him, he decides, well, I'll go ahead

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Speaker 1: and burn them up. And of course, as I previously mentioned,

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Speaker 1: he burned a one year old alive. Family members access

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Speaker 1: footage from their cell phones. As Sheryl White, investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: was just telling us those UH cameras had just been

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Speaker 1: installed the week before after she had gotten the protective

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Speaker 1: order against her husband. This is what else we found,

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Speaker 1: Sheryl White. A backpack Henderson carried when he came home

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Speaker 1: from the fire was found at his mom's home. How

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Speaker 1: protect While everybody always goes and hides at their mom's

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Speaker 1: house or stashes and stuff, and their mom's found that

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Speaker 1: his mom's with a lock pick and duct tape inside.

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Speaker 1: A twenty two caliber rifle was in his jeep, as

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Speaker 1: well as mm O, a pistol, and more evidence. They're

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Speaker 1: being held right now without bond. And when you look

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Speaker 1: at the home, it's a lovely brick home out in

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Speaker 1: the middle of a wooded area with a nice big

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Speaker 1: lawn on the front. I mean, and I'm certainly not

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Speaker 1: saying the structure makes the home, but it does not

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Speaker 1: look like a high crime area. It looks almost bucolic.

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Speaker 1: It looks like you know, the American dreams, Cheryl White.

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Speaker 1: It's a very nice area. It's a suburb of Huntsville, Alabama.

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Speaker 1: It's just a little bit to the northeast in Madison County.

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Speaker 1: Even the name of the street sounds as you say,

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Speaker 1: for you, College St. Clair Lane, But it was not

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Speaker 1: that day. And you know, one thing that forensics found

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Speaker 1: was that Carol Smallwood, the mother Christian's mother, was shot,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know that the arson would have covered that.

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Speaker 1: We are waiting for the latest as these cases developed.

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Speaker 1: Five dead bodies, including an unborn child, an eight year

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Speaker 1: old little boy, and a one year old little boy.

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Speaker 1: Why why Luckily prosecutors do not have to prove motive.

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Speaker 1: They are not expected to crawl into the brain of

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Speaker 1: a spree killer and figure out why. They just had

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Speaker 1: to prove who, what, where and when? And now on

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Speaker 1: crime stories we find a defendant, Scott le Peterson, guilty

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Speaker 1: of the crime of murder of Lazy d vs. Peterson.

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Speaker 1: The case of State versus Scott Peterson, to me, feels

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Speaker 1: like it just happened yesterday, just vanished, and it turned

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Speaker 1: into a media storm within days. Please please please let

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Speaker 1: her go, bring her back. Guess what, Scotty san Quin's

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Speaker 1: your new home. There was no biological evidence, no forensic

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Speaker 1: evidence whatsoever that pointed to the guilt of Scott Peterson.

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Speaker 1: There's at least eleven witnesses that saal Lacy that day.

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Speaker 1: This is all all Scott's at the office on his computer,

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Speaker 1: so he's innocent. I wasn't last one is to Lacy

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Speaker 1: that day. There are so many witnesses are walking in

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Speaker 1: the neighborhood. After I left the coffs, Just Cann followed

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Speaker 1: up on deep earlier across the street. Pregnant Lacy Peterson

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Speaker 1: was murdered at Christmas. I've never forgotten it. I've never

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Speaker 1: forgotten sitting in that courtroom as the evidence unfolded, and

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Speaker 1: rushing from outside the front of the courthouse inside for

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Speaker 1: testimony to resume, and the courtroom was completely full, and

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Speaker 1: I couldn't find a seat. I sat on the very

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Speaker 1: back row. I had worked at the last possible second,

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Speaker 1: and I was so far back that I had to

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Speaker 1: take off my backpack and sit on the backpack so

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Speaker 1: I could see up to the front. And I remember

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Speaker 1: Sharon Roacha, Lacey's mother, testifying about Lacy's burial and how

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Speaker 1: in the coffin Lacy was buried holding baby Connor, her

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Speaker 1: first and only child. That's what I remember. And now

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Speaker 1: after a jury convicts him and sends him to death row.

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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson has reared his ugly head again. Oh yes,

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Speaker 1: he has, declaring from behind bars that quote. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: the last one to see Lacy alive. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: know what, just go back to your your keig of

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Speaker 1: Pruno and your love letters from misguided women across the country.

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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson, I mean, how dare he now take salt

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Speaker 1: and rub it into the wounds of Lacey's family? Another

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Speaker 1: thing I will never forget as the family. Lacy's family

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Speaker 1: stood by him as supported him at the beginning, until

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Speaker 1: photos emerge of Lacey at one Christmas party nine months pregnant.

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Speaker 1: She felt so bad she had to put her feet up.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, across town, he was at his

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Speaker 1: own Christmas party with Amber Fry, who had on a

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Speaker 1: red satin strapless dress, and he had on a Santa

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Speaker 1: Claus hat and he had his hand right on her

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Speaker 1: rear end. You know what, I've had it with him.

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Speaker 1: I've had it with him. Why are we even listening

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Speaker 1: to him, Cheryl White? Why it's Scott Peterson back in

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Speaker 1: the headlines spearing his bs. You know why? Because people

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Speaker 1: are still interested in it. And there's a new special

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Speaker 1: about it. And the more I read about what we

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Speaker 1: may see, uh, it almost sounds as if they're they're

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Speaker 1: giving him a chance to defend himself. He said, there

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Speaker 1: are many people who saw her after that alleged last Right,

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Speaker 1: you mean all of them that came forward at trial zero? Right?

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Speaker 1: He he was a particularly unlikable person, don't you think. Well,

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Speaker 1: here's the thing I never got, Joe Scott. Don't feel

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Speaker 1: left out. But I've got to tell you a lot

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Speaker 1: of men, a lot of women thought he was handsome.

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Speaker 1: Not me, of course, I never thought he was even

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Speaker 1: remotely handsome, but a lot of women did. He was

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Speaker 1: allegedly athletic, had a college degree, um teeth apparently straightened

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Speaker 1: by the orthodonist. I did see that at a distance.

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Speaker 1: A job, a beautiful home, a beautiful wife, a baby

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Speaker 1: on the way, a yard, everything, nice car, the works.

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Speaker 1: But just got Morgan, don't even fix your mouth to

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Speaker 1: tell me that a man within the week after his

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Speaker 1: wife quote goes missing, orders the porn channel. Okay, he

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Speaker 1: didn't expect her to walk back through the front door.

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Speaker 1: Can I just put that out there? If I came

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Speaker 1: home and my husband had ordered the porn channel. H

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Speaker 1: his clothes will be in the front yard and a

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Speaker 1: fire pit and the locks will be changed pronto, come

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Speaker 1: home ordered the porn channel. Uhh n oh, okay. And

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Speaker 1: that's just a tiny, tiny bit of evidence that I

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Speaker 1: just want to throw out there. And then within like

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Speaker 1: ten days of her quote disappearance, he's on the phone

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Speaker 1: trying to sell the house and her car. Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: you're just sitting there, quiet me. What happened? Cat got

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Speaker 1: your tongue? Nope, I hadn't got it yet. I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you another telling piece of information here in regards to

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Speaker 1: miss Amber. Uh. She had made in her statement the

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Speaker 1: comment And I think this is very telling that when

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Speaker 1: he introduced himself, he referred to himself as a widower.

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Speaker 1: Now you know, okay, you just said those words. Everybody

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Speaker 1: in this studio mouth the words widower. We all know it.

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Speaker 1: So why is he jumping up now claiming he's not

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Speaker 1: responsible for her murder? And a baby Connor's murder. And

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Speaker 1: another thing I can remember as I was busy, busy, busy,

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what. I was running like a

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Speaker 1: maniac from one job to the next, and I heard

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Speaker 1: that a baby had washed ashore, and I went, that's

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Speaker 1: baby Connor. I didn't read any news nothing. I said,

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Speaker 1: that's him. And the baby looked like a little shiny

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Speaker 1: plastic baby doll that you you know, buy at the store.

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Speaker 1: Because even in death, Lacey's body, as you know, the

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Speaker 1: uterus is the strongest, the thickest muscle in of the

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Speaker 1: female anatomy, in the reproductive organs, and that was the

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Speaker 1: last thing to give way. And he literally floated out

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Speaker 1: of her uterus and washed ashore, followed by her in

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Speaker 1: the next tied essentially, So, why why am I why?

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Speaker 1: It's like a gnat buzzing around my head. Scott Peterson's

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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson? Why is he saying this now? And what

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Speaker 1: is he saying, Joe Scott. He's saying that someone else

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Speaker 1: other than him was the last person to see this

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Speaker 1: poor woman alive. And of course, uh, we don't know

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Speaker 1: who that person is. This is going to be quote

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Speaker 1: unquote the big reveal in this program that's gonna be broadcast.

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Speaker 1: I am just absolutely amazing podcast in a program, how

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Speaker 1: about in a court of law? What so? Who are

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Speaker 1: who are all these witnesses? This is an uh a

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Speaker 1: Joel House interview he did with his sister in law, Janey,

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Speaker 1: and I don't blame his family at all. They want

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Speaker 1: to believe, they want to believe he's innocent. So you know,

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Speaker 1: I get it. I get it when your mind just

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Speaker 1: does not want to accept what's right in front of you.

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Speaker 1: So he says, quote, I wasn't the last one to

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Speaker 1: see Lacy that day. There were so many witnesses that

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Speaker 1: saw her walking in the neighborhood after I left. If

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Speaker 1: there were so many witnesses, Sheryl White, investigative reporter, why

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Speaker 1: didn't they testify? Yeah, that's the number one question, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know that we're going to get any

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Speaker 1: resolution to that, any answer to that question in this

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Speaker 1: new documentary, but reportedly we will. Um And don't forget

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Speaker 1: that when he was arrested, he had dyed his hair.

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Speaker 1: Remember he had bleached his hair out blonde, and his

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Speaker 1: and his goatee, and he had all of that stuff

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Speaker 1: with him that would indicate flight. Do you mean false identifications? Uh,

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Speaker 1: thousands of dollars in cash. Of course, he's stocked up

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Speaker 1: on Fiagra, as I recall, that was in his car.

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Speaker 1: You need that out in the wilderness. Um right, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: you know he got it back a big okay. Uh,

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Speaker 1: then all the wilderness gear he was set to go,

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Speaker 1: and as I recall, he was caught and another thing.

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Speaker 1: And you might speak to this, Joe Scott, and I

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00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: found it true too. Now I don't know of any studies,

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00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: but they may exist where purps, for some reason always

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Speaker 1: go back to the scene of the crime. How many

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Speaker 1: times did GPS reveal Scott Peterson would go back to

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Speaker 1: the San Francisco Bay just look out over the water

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Speaker 1: before he was arrested. Yeah, he was a lot. He

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Speaker 1: was fondly thinking about what he was going to do

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Speaker 1: with the rest of his life now that he had

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Speaker 1: partially dismembered the body of his wife. I think people

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Speaker 1: are forgetting what he did to this woman. And one

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00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: more big fact here is the whole the old adage

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Speaker 1: of motive means an opportunity. So you're telling me that

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Speaker 1: there's other people riding around this neighborhood that saw her

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Speaker 1: that could facilitate putting her in a boat after they

394
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: partially dismembered her, weighed her down and took her out

395
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Speaker 1: and threw her in the water. It's the dog doesn't hunt.

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely mindless and I cannot believe they're giving this

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Speaker 1: guy a platform. It's absolutely just beyond the pale. Well,

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Speaker 1: here's the other thing. Here's the other thing, um you

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Speaker 1: mentioned as you said, quote miss Amber Well, Amber Fry

400
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: has been attacked a lot, and I don't want to

401
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Speaker 1: make this about her because it's really about Lacy and

402
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Speaker 1: Connor and their and their family. But I've spent time

403
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Speaker 1: with Amber Fry, and she really believes she found Mr. Write.

404
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: You know, I don't believe that she knew he was

405
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Speaker 1: married to this day. I don't think it because when

406
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: she did find out, it was because of Lacy Peterson

407
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: in the search for Lacey Peterson, and she called police

408
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: and went, I think I'm dating a guy that's married

409
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Speaker 1: to Lacey Peterson. And I will never again forget when

410
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 1: those tapes were played where Scott Peterson pretended he was

411
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: in France or Brussels or or a somewhere overseas for

412
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 1: I think it was New Year's for a holiday celebration,

413
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: and he was referring to them as Jacques and Pierre.

414
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: I can't remember the fake names he gave his fake friends,

415
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: and he was actually it was the night of Lacey's

416
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: vigil where everybody was just torn apart about where was Lacey?

417
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: And he was ducking and diving, so he wentn't be

418
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: on TV so all his girlfriends wouldn't find out that

419
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 1: he was married to Lazy Peterson. Does anybody remember that

420
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 1: Shery White? Or have I lost my mind yet again? No? Absolutely,

421
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Speaker 1: And he had so many affairs it's hard to count

422
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Speaker 1: them all. And when Amber found out in contact the police,

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Speaker 1: she then cooperated. Um I believe she was wired or

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00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: was somehow had recording take the calls. She taped the

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00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: call and the only way we heard the depth of

426
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: his deceit was through the calls that she agreed to take. Cheryl,

427
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: You're right, So what does this amount to Joe Scott

428
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: So he's saying this on A and E documentary, What

429
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: what is the point? What is the point? Because if

430
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: they go through all of the evidence that I think

431
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: that they will, he will be proven guilty. Yet again,

432
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: I mean, who are the people he's claiming that saw

433
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: Lacy after he went to work if excuse me, fishing

434
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: fishing fish location where her body was found, talking about

435
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: putting yourself at the scene of the cor But who

436
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: are these people? I don't know. I think that that's

437
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 1: gonna be a big reveal here in this case, the

438
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: producer is saying that this in no way is going

439
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: to exonerate uh this fellow uh in in in in

440
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: this case and take away his guilt. I think that

441
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: the attorney for Peterson is seeing this as an opportunity

442
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: to get this back out of the news, to start

443
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: a buzz with this thing, to try in some way

444
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: to cast doubt on this case and get him off

445
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: of death row. And if you remember how the judge

446
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: came down in this case, and this is in California,

447
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: made he he framed Peterson as an absolute monster, and he's,

448
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: you know, in in in in sentencing him to death,

449
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: which the death penalty is not very popular in California. UM,

450
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: that's the only thing that I can see that they're

451
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: attempting to do here to any special regarding Scott Peterson's

452
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: alleged claims of other witnesses. Airing on A and E,

453
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: let's see what it proves. Our eyes are on the

454
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: prize of justice and now on crime stories, boiling tensions

455
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: outside the courthouse and Charlotte's film as the man suspected

456
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: of driving his car into a crowd of protesters after

457
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: a white supremacist rally, was charged with second degree murder.

458
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: I'm proud of what she did. I'm proud of what

459
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: she did. Those were the words uttered by the mother

460
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: of a young woman who was mowed down, dead, dead

461
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: at what she thought would be a peaceful march. It

462
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: didn't turn out to be peaceful, and now Heather is

463
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: dead protesting white supremacist march at Charlottesville. What happened When

464
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: you see the footage of this on TV and the

465
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: clips that have been played over and over again, it

466
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: looks like something you would imagine happening in some other country,

467
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: But it's right here in our Virginia. What went wrong?

468
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: And who now is going to jail? I mean, see Grace,

469
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

470
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: It's right under our noses. Joining me. Special guest Susan Candiotti,

471
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: investigative reporter. Also with me, Brian Levin, hate crime expert.

472
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: Both of you, thank you for being with me. I

473
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: remember working on one of the first hate crimes that

474
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: I ever knew of anyway in Inner city Atlanta. I

475
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: was working on a serial killing of young black gay males.

476
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: And this was whoa whoa way back in the in

477
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: the mid eighties. And I don't think that the words

478
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: hate crime were even um popular at that time. I

479
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: just knew a guy was murdering young black male gay guys,

480
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: and the bodies were had piled up, all right, and

481
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: it was very clear that male black gay were the targets.

482
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: That's the first time I ever really knew about hate crimes.

483
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: I knew about crime, but crimes, evil, horrible crimes directed

484
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: at a particular group, just because they belonged to that group,

485
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: whatever group it could be. I want to go first

486
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: to Susan Candiotti, investigative reporters. Susan, break it down for

487
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: me in a nutshell, give me the takeaway. What happened.

488
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: What happened is you had in of course, Charlotte'sville over

489
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: the weekend, Virginia, there was a rally that was staged

490
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: called for by this group two UH because they were

491
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: protesting the fact that the city there had voted and

492
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: agreed to bring down the statue of UH Confederate General Lee. Okay, wait, wait, wait,

493
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: we're still talking about the Civil War? Are what this

494
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: is all over? A statue of Robert E. Lee, Confederate

495
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: or general. Okay, when you say a group, what group

496
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: is that? The KKK, is that the Arian supremus? Who

497
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: who's the group? Seems to be a combination of a

498
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: lot of different groups that came together and be organized.

499
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: I mean, we know, for example, that infamous leader of

500
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: the KKK, former leader of the k D, David Duke,

501
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: was even involved. But you had a number of different groups,

502
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: including reportedly militia groups, who were also involved in this.

503
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: Militia groups. Militia groups, what do you mean by militia groups?

504
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: I always think of a bunch of like, uh, white

505
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: guys running through the woods on the weekend and a

506
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: beer keg. What do you mean by militia group? These

507
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: are people who think that it's time to take back

508
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: power from the government. But the government is running the

509
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: country to the degree of removing individual rights, and the

510
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: government has too much. Okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute.

511
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: That that may not be half wrong, Susan Candiotti, But

512
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: what does that have to do with dragging out a

513
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: statute of Robert E. Lee? I mean, does anybody on

514
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: the program right now like big government? Because I mean

515
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: I was a fed and I'm not crazy about the Feds.

516
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: All right, I'll just put that out there. But why

517
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: I don't I don't understand how disliking big government, which

518
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: I really don't know anybody that does like big Everybody

519
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: in the studio is saying, no, we hate big government. Okay,

520
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: but that's just us. But what does that have to

521
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: do with mowing people down dead and dragging down a

522
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: stad taking down a statute. These are sometimes often, as

523
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: we know, like minded people who are hearkening back to

524
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: any interference by the government on individual rights to as

525
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: many of these groups have said who attended this rally,

526
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: the idea that the government can mess with history and

527
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: the fact that a statute representing a leader of a

528
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: Confederate army can be taken down is again off sign.

529
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: Many of these groups believe it's interferenced by the government

530
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: with literally the history of the United States. They take

531
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: it as an affront. They take it, of course, what

532
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: did that person represent? That person represented the South, help

533
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: represented South in the Civil War and states rights to

534
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: maintain the ability to keep slavery alive in the tent

535
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: a minute, there's a big difference, I think in arguing

536
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: for states rights. Because we have states rights. It's a

537
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: very delicate balance between state power and federal power. But

538
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: state states right is another issue from slavery, for Pete's sake.

539
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: So Okay, people are there protest, and I would say cooks,

540
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: but we've got a dead body, so it's it's I

541
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: can't really brand them in that way. They're there, and

542
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: there are counter protesters that are they're arguing with them,

543
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: So I guess this whole thing is not really about

544
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: state's rights. It's about people being angry. Some people being

545
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: angry that what's perceived as a symbol of slavery is

546
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: going to be pulled down, Robert Elie's statute. And I

547
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: this moment right now, I am not arguing about Robert E. Lee.

548
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: All right, I'm not arguing about the Civil War. I'm

549
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: arguing what had about what happened in Virginia and how

550
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: could that happen here where you basically have a mob

551
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: scene that gets out of control protesters and counter protesters

552
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: and we end up with a body bag. Okay, take

553
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: me through what happened exactly. So they're they're protesting about

554
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: a statute, their counter protesters protesting against them, and what

555
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 1: happens the group, according to police, that was staging the rally,

556
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: I did not enter this area where they were supposed to,

557
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: and they went a different way. Uh. And the two

558
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: groups confronted each other. Insults and tons were being hurled

559
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: by both sides. All of a sudden as their people

560
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,280
Speaker 1: in the middle of the street on the side streets

561
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: a car bringing to police into all kinds of witnesses

562
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: and a group of people who are protesting the rally

563
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: of white supremacists and neo Nazis who had been there

564
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: the date, being joined by Brian Levin, hate crime expert.

565
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 1: Brian put it in a nutshell Vanguard America, the American

566
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: fascist James Alex Fields Junior, just twenty years old? How

567
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: can you have be so full of hate at just twenty?

568
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: I mean I had already survived, just survived the murder

569
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: of my fiance, was trying to figure out what I

570
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: could do to fight back against all that pain and

571
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: anger and and just over will tides of pain. At

572
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: that age, how do you get so full of hate?

573
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: He has been arrested and charged with murder two after

574
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: he allegedly drives his car into a crowd of anti fascist,

575
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: killing a young woman, mowing her down dead and injuring

576
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: nearly twenty other people. Photos have recently emerged showing Fields

577
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: marching with a right wing group known as Van Guard America. Okay,

578
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 1: I know who the clan is, and that is a

579
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: name that has struck fear throughout the South as long

580
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: as I can remember. Um. Now, when I was a

581
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: little girl, Brian, I did not know anything at on.

582
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: This is growing up in the South about hatred, racial hatred, crime, nothing.

583
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: I would get a little glimpse of hatred on TV

584
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: at dinner when the world news will be on the

585
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: six o'clock news. We only got one channel, which CBS,

586
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: and um, I could you know, see protests going on

587
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: about maybe Vietnam and angry faces. But we didn't know

588
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: anything about racial hatred or anything like this. And that's

589
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 1: growing up in the South. So I don't understand how now,

590
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: at this time, two thousand seventeen, this is still festering.

591
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: It's incredible, isn't it. And you know what's so interesting

592
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: is you wouldn't have heard of Vanguard America because it's

593
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: a relatively new group, just a couple of years old,

594
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: um founded by UH a military event and the night

595
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: of the rally, they were saying blood and soil, and

596
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: that blood and soil reference goes back to the Third Reich,

597
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: along with those torchs like marches a. Brown Shirts used

598
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: to do that. And it's never wait a minute, wait

599
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: a minute when you say things like brown shirts, everybody's

600
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: not steep in the culture of hate like you are

601
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: no offense. But what what do you mean by brown

602
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: Sharus who would go out and beat up enemies of Hitler?

603
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: They were just organized thugs. And what's so interesting is, uh,

604
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: Vanguard America uses the term blood and soil, which was

605
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 1: okay anything that their motto is blood and soil. I

606
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: want to stay completely away from them. Now they're claiming

607
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 1: this guy had nothing to do with them. Van Guard

608
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: is now saying James Alex Fields Junior, just twenty years old,

609
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 1: for peat's sake, had nothing to do with him and

610
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: was not a member. So why are they implicated in

611
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: this because they were there marching. Well, he was not

612
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: only there marching. Mr. Field is not only their marching.

613
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: He was photographed dressed in the same clothes and carrying

614
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: the shield Uh that had these symbols on it. So uh,

615
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: you know you know, I don't know how they're saying

616
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: he wasn't a member because he came all the way

617
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: from Ohio. In addition, his high school chief wait, and

618
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: he came down from Ohio to argue about a statute

619
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,959
Speaker 1: of Robert Elie. Okay, I'm having a hard time. First

620
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: of all, it's hard for me, Susan Candiotti, with everything

621
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: going on in the world, to even imagine how people

622
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: that have families and and jobs and a life have

623
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: time on weekend to go trump around arguing about a statute.

624
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: And while you may respect certain things about Robert Elie,

625
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: the statute brings up a lot of pain for a

626
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: lot of people, right, Okay, can we just all accept that?

627
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: And uh and is a reminder of bad things in

628
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: the past. So I get the angry feelings of wanting

629
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: the statute down, all the hate and the pain behind that.

630
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: His mother has said after this happened, she had no

631
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: idea eah that her her son was attending this rally.

632
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,439
Speaker 1: She knew that he was going away, that he told

633
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: her that he was going to attend to rally of

634
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: some kind. She thought it was something political, or that

635
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: it had something to do with I believe she is

636
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: reported to say President Trump, but she didn't really know

637
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: what it was all about, and she reportedly told him

638
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 1: just stay out of trouble. But this is a young man, Nancy,

639
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: who when he was growing up in Kentucky, his high

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00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 1: school teacher said that this young man had a fascination

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00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: with Nazi Germany, that he wrote papers about it, very

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00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 1: well written papers. And his teacher tried to he admired

643
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: Nazi Germany and Hitler and what he had done, and

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00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: his teacher tried to, you know, a steer him in

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00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: the right direction. Why what's this fascination? Why are you

646
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: why do you care about this? But he said to no.

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00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: Avail m. Brian Levin. I want to follow up on that,

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00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: Brian Levin joining us his warning hate crime expert. So

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing so many different pieces of this puzzle that

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00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 1: he grew up basically enamored with Nazi Germany and then

651
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: transplanted those feelings onto States rights agenda and was there

652
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: marching in the vanguard brown shirt uniform carrying their their shield.

653
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 1: So where does that leave me now? Well, I mean

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00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: it's the Department of Justice, and I hope they are

655
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: immediately investigating this as an Act of domestic terrorism. I mean,

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00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: we're not just fighting isis. We're fighting any hate that

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00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: ends in death. As far as I'm concerned, I mean,

658
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: I've been doing it since the eighties, and to me,

659
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: this is just a new hybrid. Yeah. Well, unfortunately, while

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00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: we do have a domestic terrorism statute, it really just

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00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: relies on traditional Plaine Vanilla statutes. So as as Susan

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00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: who covered the McVeigh trial, uh found that McVeigh was

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00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: charged under traditional laws. But I can tell you that

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00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: the Justice Department is vigorously pursuing this. And one of

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00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 1: the things that we've seen over the last couple of

666
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 1: years has been this explosion of what I call hate

667
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: mega rallies. Uh. Years ago, Uh, we used to see,

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00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of dozen of these hate mongers

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00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: show up and it's only from one group. In the

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00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: last two years alone, we've had more of these mega

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00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: rallies with scores of people are over a hundred, uh,

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00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 1: then we had in the previous fifteen years. So this

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00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: is a disturbing thing. And what's happened is white nationalism

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00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: has now become a splintered, yet bona fide socio political

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00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: movement hold on I want to talk to you about

676
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: hate crime grapes because they're really not on many people's radar.

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00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: They're on my radar because we would prosecute the resulting murders.

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00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,720
Speaker 1: At that time, we were not really calling them hate crimes.

679
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: To prosecute them for murdering, get life behind bars or

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00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: the death penalty. But when you're saying, hey, grapes, who

681
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 1: are are they? How many are they? Where do they meet?

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00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: To me, they're like roaches. You can't find one, but

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00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 1: when you find one, there's a million. As you said,

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00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: you're more unbold. Now Southern Party loss in their accounts

685
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: increase from the previous year. Um, But where do they meet?

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00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: How do they recruit? I want to know the details.

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00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 1: I don't I don't care about all the statistics. Who

688
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: are these people? A lot of them are, particularly these ones,

689
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: you're younger people who are white males, consider themselves disenfranchised

690
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: and the organized over social media. Do you think this

691
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: whole thing can be traced and prosecuted through social media?

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00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: Because it's not just the one young woman dad. There

693
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: are also two Virginia State Police dead. Uh one of

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00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: them Lieutenant Cullen, just forty eight years old. And Trooper

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00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: Pilot Bates both dead at the scene. They were in

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00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 1: a Virginia State Police helicopter. They're both dead, and in

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00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: my mind, I don't see why this is not going

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00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: to be prosecuted as a death penalty case because in

699
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: my mind, there are three dead bodies as a result

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00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 1: of these hate acts. You know what, if the FEDGE

701
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: come in and charge it under the hate crime statue,

702
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: you could get the death penalty. It's not always um

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00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: easy to tackle what's happening right now, but it's in

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00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: our backyard, on our American soil. This is not some

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00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: hateful mob in another country where death occurs. This is

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00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: right here. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend,