1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: All right, welcome to it could happen here a podcast 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: about things falling apart and also sometimes about how things 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: have been falling apart for a while now. And today 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about how things were also bad in 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: falling apart in the two thousands, which a profoundly cursed 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: time period. And specifically we're going to talk about I 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: think a part of the anti war movement that does 8 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: not get much attention, um, which is the port militarization 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: resistance that happened sort of two seven And with us 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: today to talk about this is two people who were 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: part of this movement if Juliana Newhouser, hello, and Brendan 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: Maslaska's done, Yeah, both of whom were organizers and activists 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: while this was going on. Yeah, and I thank thank you, 14 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: thank you both for being here. Yeah, thanks for having 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: us so. Yeah. As I was saying a bit in 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: the intro, I think that this is a part of 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: the anti war movement that is not very well known. 18 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: I think I think a lot of people know about 19 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: the initial stuff happened in twos three, and people might 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: know about some of the stuff that was happening against 21 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: the war in Afghanistan, but right when it started. But 22 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: I don't think most people know that it, like you know, 23 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: even after jails and three sort of doesn't work, that 24 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: it continues and it continues sort of informs that are 25 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: that are very interesting. And so I guess I want 26 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: you to to start out. I want to ask how 27 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: we sort of got from the early part of the 28 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: anti war movement into this and how you got involved. 29 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: I would say that there's this narrative about the women 30 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: against the word Iraq, that there is the largest protests 31 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: in human history, at least at that point. I don't 32 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: know if it's still true against the invasion, and then 33 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: it didn't work and everyone kind of went home and 34 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: ended there, and to a certain extent that's true, but 35 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: like you said, the people that didn't go home went 36 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: an interesting direction. And UM, so at the time there 37 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: were direct action was not as acceptable as it is now. 38 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: The protest this movement was largely dominated either by UM 39 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: big liberal coalitions or PSL front groups that were basically 40 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 1: indistinguishable and what they actually did, which was basically nothing 41 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: and in the best of cases and then the worst 42 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:45,959 Speaker 1: of cases, counterinsurgency. UM. But then there were small groups 43 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: of people that at when we saw that it didn't work, 44 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: and we saw that these giant, peaceful marches from one 45 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: part of town to another, um or voting for John 46 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: Carry or whatever, it didn't work, that we started to 47 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: look for other options. Yeah, and uh, you know, I 48 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: got involved. Um you know, I'd say, what the anti 49 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: war movement, That idea of how how war is unjust 50 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: was really talked to me from a very young age. 51 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: I mean my parents were you know, children of the sixties, 52 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: and they had family members fighting in Vietnam and um, 53 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, friends dying in Vietnam and we're against the 54 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: protests back then. So I grew up hearing these stories 55 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: and of course stories from family members, particularly one of 56 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: my grandfather's, both of them who were veterans in World 57 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: War Two. One of them was a marine and the 58 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: you know, in the Pacific Theater and still into his seventies, 59 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties until his final days, was just dealing 60 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: with horrific PTSD and had always taught me from a 61 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: young age never to get involved. So I, you know, 62 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: and I remember when when the very clearly, um you know, 63 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure it's on everyone's minds now, and when the 64 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: invasion of Afghanistan started, when the invasion of a Rock started. 65 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: I was at that that massive demonstration in Washington, d C. 66 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: That Julianna just mentioned, and you know I ended up. 67 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 1: I'm from Utica, New York. I went to a rural 68 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: high school, uh just outside of of Utica, you know, 69 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: russ Bell generally speaking, impoverished and also very conservative area 70 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: of New York. And you know, I had the recruiters 71 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: bothering me, military recruiters in high school, recruiting my friends, 72 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: and they were just everywhere in the hallways. Uh So 73 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: it was very present um with me. When I was younger, 74 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: I moved out to Olympia, Washington, two thousand six, and 75 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: that's one a new student activist group, Students for a 76 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: Democratic Society, was launched. That's how Julianna and I first met. 77 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: We were both in separate chapters of that new organization 78 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: in the Pacific Northwest. And the port protests started just 79 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: just a few months after I moved out there in 80 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: in Olympia in two thousand six. So wait to declare 81 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: for this for a second, because I've never quite been 82 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: clear on this history. So there was a second st 83 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: like Students for Democratic idea that was like unrelated to 84 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: the first one. Yeah, they're born briefly um at the 85 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: end of the bushop Manastery. That that explains a lot 86 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: of things that it's very baffling. We're not that old. Yeah, 87 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: we're definitely in the in the second uh, you know, 88 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: the rebirth of it um. So you know, I think 89 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: it it took on some things in spirit um you know, 90 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: but also was i'd say different in many ways, and 91 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: it was very active to me at least, it was 92 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: very exciting to be a member of the new STS 93 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: because they're over a dozen chapters in the Pacific Northwest 94 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: and was a great way to connect with young activists 95 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: all over the US. So STS is emerging in this 96 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: time period. One of the other things I was interested 97 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: about is something someone you were talking about in in 98 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: in the early part of this, which has to do 99 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: with the way that these giants both the sort of 100 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: Answer Coalition PSL Frank Group and I guess the I 101 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: s O was still around back then coalitions work versus 102 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: how like anything else worked. So so what was was 103 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: STS sort of like consciously set up and in opposition 104 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: to those groups. I don't think it was conscious, but 105 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: there was just like I mean, these days, I mean 106 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: like there's a lot of controversy around PSL with like 107 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: anarchist versus tanky politics. None of that mattered at that time, Like, 108 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: none of that mattered. The only thing that mattered was 109 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 1: the answer, which is the PSO Front group was completely 110 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: fucking useless. Like they completely indistinguishable from any peace police 111 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: um liberal democratic front group. There was literally no difference, 112 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: just in terms of their aesthetics maybe like is there 113 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: a donkey or a hammer and sickle on something. That's 114 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: the only difference we saw. So I don't I don't 115 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: think there was. It wasn't There wasn't like a conscious 116 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: like political opposite attention to it. It's just like they're 117 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: not doing anything, and and so we had to look 118 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: in another direction. Actually, you know, it's hard to keep 119 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: track of the alphabet soup of authilitarian communist groups at times, 120 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: but this was actually answer for those who don't recall 121 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: it was a front group for the Workers World Party, 122 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: the WWT, which yeah, I mean, it's it's hard to 123 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: keep track, right, Yeah, that's the same thing, like I think, 124 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: so so okay, So for people who are sort of 125 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: unaware of this, there's a network of connected but sometimes 126 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: feuding like weird stalonist cults that kind of kind of 127 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: like they hold on through the eighties and nineties and 128 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: they start sort of rebuilding again around the anti one 129 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: movements in that period. That that's the PSLs of the 130 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: DUP's answer, like, and I think that's like most like 131 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: modern anti war groups are also still these people, which 132 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: is incredibly depressing something they want to talk a bit 133 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: about it towards the end of this, but yet just 134 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: for people who have not spent the last half decade 135 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: in the in the trenches of extremely weird anti war politics. So, yeah, 136 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: so I think we should get into how the sort 137 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: of the first action starts in Olympia. Yeah so, and 138 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,359 Speaker 1: there were actually a couple of actions that happened um 139 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: in the year proceeding that, you know, before I moved 140 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: out to Olympia in two thousand and six, it was 141 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: not yet under the banner of PMR port Militarization Resistance. 142 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: That was a name that was officially coined in uh, 143 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, and in May and June of two thousand six. So, 144 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: just to give you an idea, Olympia, it's it's a 145 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: college town or at the Evergreen State Colleges there. It's 146 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: also the capital of Washington State, so you have that 147 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: going on. It's also a military town. It's a little 148 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: over twenty miles south of what we called Fort Lewis. 149 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: It's now called j B l M. J BLOM or 150 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: Joint Base Lewis McCord. It's an Army and Air Force 151 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: base now it's one base. Um So, yet all these 152 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, different kind of elements, uh in you know, 153 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: in tandem in in that town and the public port. 154 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: The Port of Olympia is one of about seventy years 155 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: so public ports in the state of Washington, some of 156 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: which are I mean, they're used for all kinds of things, 157 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 1: you know, for commercial, private industry, but also the military 158 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: and the US government. Uh So, uh you know, I 159 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: heard from someone I don't even remember who that the 160 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: military was sending a ship to the Port of Olympia 161 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: in late May of two thousand six. And this happened 162 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: for ten or so days, and it was just kind 163 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: of a natural instinct for a whole bunch of us 164 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: to go down to the Port of Olympia. It was 165 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: it was the war machine in our backyard. And the 166 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: idea was to just block the vehicles. It started out 167 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: with just like less than ten people number folks getting arrested, 168 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: and that very rapidly culminated into larger protests. Every single 169 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: day um AN active blockades people, those of us like 170 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: Julian and myself and other folks using civil disobedience or 171 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: what we prefer to call civil resistance to try and 172 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: stop or at the very least slow down these striker 173 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: vehicles and to give folks an idea of what a 174 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: striker vehicle is. You can look it up online, but 175 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: it's kind of halfway between um, you know, a tank 176 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: and humby. It doesn't have the slats you know that 177 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: a tank would have. It's you know. And they were 178 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: being used in both Iraq and Afghanistan for for raids 179 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: of residential areas. They were really on the front lines 180 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: of the war in in both those countries, and that's 181 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: what we were trying to stop. I only got involved 182 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: later um because I wasn't living in Olympia at the time. 183 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: UM I was in another STS chapter, but my roommate 184 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: was from Olympia and he had been involved in that 185 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: first round of protests in Olympia before moving up to Ballingham. 186 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: And so like hearing his story, it's got me very 187 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: excited because just like finally someone's someone's doing something like 188 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: someone's they're not just like you know, it's like everything 189 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: else was just so liberal. Take whether it's marching from 190 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: one place to another or writing to your congress people 191 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: or occupying their office. It was like asking someone else 192 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: to do something which you knew from the beginning they 193 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: were never going to do. And finally this was finally 194 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: someone was like actually getting into it. UM. I think 195 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: the first one of the things that happened here was 196 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: that um they started to avoid UM. There's it was 197 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: kind of a geographical thing. I think, UM for people 198 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: who either don't know Washington Washington, or because they're normal 199 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: people don't know like the port areas of these cities 200 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: very well because it's like like unless you're a long sherman, like, 201 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: why you would you go down to like the port 202 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: of Tacoma. There's nothing there. UM. But they kept moving 203 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: it around because um Olympia is also not very big 204 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: and UM, so it's there's really only two roads into 205 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: the port, which is very small, and so it was 206 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: it's very easy to block it. UM. And so then 207 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: I think The first time that I got involved UM 208 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: was in two thousands seven when they had moved it 209 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: because they kept moving it around to try and switch 210 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: things up. And wait, before they're moving the ship around, No, 211 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: it's like they had to make a military ship met. 212 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: They would UM. It's like like once the ship it 213 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: was in the port, they would just have to go 214 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: through with it. But then UM, you know, it's like 215 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: everything every six months or so they had to make 216 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: another military ship met and they would change the port 217 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: usually each time, UM, to try and let basically to 218 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: avoid us. It doesn't seem like this is like normal crap. Um. 219 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: The first time I had gone down was in um Tacoma, 220 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: which is a much much, much more industrialized port than Olympia. 221 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: It's you know, it's like a big port, more normal part, 222 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: I guess, And that one was honestly pretty crazy, UM, 223 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: because you're just trapped in this giant industrial maze basically 224 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: at the mercy of the riot cops. The best success 225 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: we had was definitely at the port of Olympia. UM. 226 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: I think the in two thousand seven in Olympia was 227 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: definitely as the glory moment, which was when people were 228 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: able to on and off like actually hold the port 229 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: and control it in the exits. Yeah, and I wanna, 230 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: you know, just emphasize that, like the the one the 231 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: military changing their approach right to avoid us so jumping 232 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: from port to port with these different shipments. They actually 233 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: went so far because we were so successful as a 234 00:14:54,880 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: movement in the Pacific Northwest to ship striker vehicles by 235 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: rail out of the Pacific Northwest and even going so 236 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: far as to ports in Texas. Um. But you know 237 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: when one thing that we did is that we built 238 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: up contacts with other activists with long shore workers all 239 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: up and down the West coast in California. There are 240 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: other activists were connected with in Texas, Hawaii, New Jersey, 241 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: and New York. There is a desire in the anti 242 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: war movement. Uh. And and you know, in some extent 243 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: maybe it's like it was small, but some folks in 244 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: the labor movement, especially in Oakland where the I LW 245 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: the you know, long shore workers Union, it's a lot 246 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: more militant than say in a place like Olympia. UM. 247 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean people wanted to replicate this model because, 248 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: as Juliana said, we wore successful in two thousand and seven. 249 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: We shut down the port of Olympia for a total 250 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: of it was essentially two days. They were not they're 251 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: not shipping anything in or out. We set up blockades, 252 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: were willing to throw down with the police in the street. 253 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: And one of the things that was cool about that 254 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: blockade is that one of the there's two entrances, like 255 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: I said, and one was completely blockaded, and then the 256 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: other one, UM, we had like a moving I don't 257 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: really even know what it was, but something with wheels 258 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: that we could move in and out, um to open 259 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: it up, and so then we could allow like civilian 260 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: cargo to move in and out, but then like we 261 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: feel it back in place, um to block military shipments. 262 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: So we were able to actually like stopped him from 263 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: like what while in in in that oneted to come. 264 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: We able to actually like stopped him from moving the 265 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: self all together. Would you when sheally cleared up on 266 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: the police and they moved it, we would eventually get 267 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: cleared out by the police. It's like we were never 268 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: able to It's like we're we we held it for 269 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: two days. That those protests took place over a series 270 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: of two weeks or more or less. Um, we were 271 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: only able to fully hold it for two days before 272 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: eventually they would clear us out. But one of the 273 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: things is that it this does it did create problems 274 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: for the army because when you work with a port, 275 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, it's like you've got like a certain time 276 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: frame that you've contracted with the port to do whatever 277 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: it is because you're going to do and it's not 278 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: too happy if you take longer every thing you said 279 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: you would or yeah, yeah. And the other thing I 280 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: want to add is, you know, I think the other 281 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: really important element with this whole movement going on is 282 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest was um it is specifically western Washington, 283 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: where the two of us were living. It was it was, 284 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: you know, the center and in a sense it was 285 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: the heart of the anti war movement in the country 286 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: at that time. One because of this militant direct action 287 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: that we were, you know, we were building up in 288 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: the streets and trying to throw wrench and the gears 289 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: of the war machine to to at the verily slowed down, 290 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: which in some ways we did, but we're up against 291 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,479 Speaker 1: so much. But the other added element, of course is 292 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 1: the g I resistance and the soldiers who are resisting 293 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: I've all also known as the Rock Veterans against the 294 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: War was very active there. They set up a g 295 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: I coffeehouse across you know, literally across the street, uh, 296 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: you know, the gates for one of the entrances for 297 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: Fort Louis. Um, there are a whole bunch of soldiers 298 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: that were going a wall. We had friends who were 299 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: active duty soldiers who had fought in you know, Iraq 300 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: and Afghanistan that were a wall and they were hiding, 301 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, refusing to go back into the striker brigades 302 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: that joined us in port militarization Resistance. Uh. There are 303 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: a whole you know, long list of soldiers that were 304 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: very publicly saying, you know, I'm refusing to fight in 305 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: Iraq or Afghanistan for you know, various reasons. And so 306 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: we are very much connected with this movement too. And 307 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: I think the higher ups in the military they're they're 308 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: hyper aware of that. They studied us very well, um, 309 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: you know, to the point of actually spying on us. 310 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: So that's like a whole other element of this story too. 311 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: One of the things that I've heard from talking to 312 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: other people were involved this was that like wow, like 313 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: during these protests, like the level of police militarization just 314 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: like skyrocketed. And like I remember I was talking frend 315 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: about this. It was like, you know, if you go 316 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: back and look at like old system of a down videos, 317 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: you know, they'll they'll have these things. Yeah, and you'll 318 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: see these you see these riot police, and like you 319 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: look at them and it's like these people they look 320 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: so much less armored than like the people that we 321 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: have now. And one of the things that I thought 322 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: was interesting about this was that like this is I 323 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: think one of the points where you start getting the 324 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: modern riot police showing up that are just like, you know, 325 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: completely encased in like armor. And yeah, I want to 326 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: talk about just like the police response to this, because 327 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: I think that's that's another thing I think. I think 328 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: there's never there's a kind of a tendency to sort 329 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: of project back what the police look like just onto 330 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: the whole history of police, and I think it's like 331 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: it's it's it's gotten worse even in the last twenty years. Yeah, 332 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: I mean, so I lived downtown in Olympia and probably 333 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: just like a six minute walk away from the Port 334 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: of Olympia and and also very conveniently just a few 335 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: blocks away from the police station, so so lucky. So 336 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: we actually saw you know, we could see from the 337 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: front of down on the road, down the sidewalk from 338 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: the front of our house. Uh, some of the military 339 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: shipments going by. And we we we did see that absolutely, 340 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: and at at times it was it was terrifying. I 341 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: mean I lived in an activist house we jokingly called 342 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: h Q because that's just you know where because of 343 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: its proximity to the port, that's where a number of 344 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: us were having meetings, uh, you know, around these protests 345 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: early on in two thousand six, and um, yeah, I 346 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: mean we like they look like RoboCop and it's something 347 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: I had I you know, I hadn't like I had 348 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: been to like mass marches and demonstrations like the r 349 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: n C protests and d NC protests in Boston, New 350 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: York and like in Washington d C uh and so 351 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: I would see these like riot cops. But they were 352 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: I mean ubiquitous in the support protests. It was like 353 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: a whole army of them that was sent out. I 354 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: mean when Juliana said that things got kind of crazy 355 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: at the Port of Tacoma protests, I mean there was 356 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: like a police riot, you know, like the cops went 357 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: absolutely nuts there, shooting people with tear gas and pepper 358 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: balls and and brutalizing people. I had never before witnessed 359 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: anything like that. And it got to the point in 360 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: you know, in Olympia where we we kind of knew 361 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: early on that we were being traced by the police 362 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: to the extent where, you know, one friend of ours 363 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: was followed from our house to the bus station to 364 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: take a bus to school by the police and then 365 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: was stopped and essentially assaulted by them on the street. 366 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: And we had another fellow activists and you know, a 367 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: roommate of mine who is going out to driving out 368 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: with a few friends, uh few fellow activists from Olympia 369 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: to Aberdeen, about an hour's drive. So Aberdeen, there's a 370 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: port of Gray's Harbor there, pretty conservative small town. It's 371 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: where Kurt Cobain is from, home of the famous Kurt 372 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: Cobain teams. McDonald's. They served billions and and billions served 373 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: and that one McDonald's and Kurt Cobain's McDonalds. But yeah, 374 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: I mean, the you know, they they were they were following. 375 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 1: They had orders the Washington State Patrol two, um, you know, 376 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: pull over a car full full of known anarchists. There 377 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: was alert gone out to all the police departments. They 378 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: pulled them, They pulled him over, they made him walk 379 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: the line. He was had you know, wasn't drinking and 380 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: no drugs, like nothing in his system, but they he 381 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: was driving under like one mile per hour under the 382 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: speed limit. They arrested him for d d W I 383 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: you know, eventually fought the chargers, sued um uh and 384 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: you know when a big settlement out of all that. 385 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: But that's just one example of many of the lengths 386 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: that the police would go to h It was pretty severe. 387 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: Even there's a house of a bunch of anarchists, younger 388 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: anarchists called a pitch Pipe info shop in Tacoma, and 389 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: that was also a big target. The police were swarming 390 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: around them all the time. They had like camera set 391 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: up like specifically just a side the infishop, Like there 392 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: weren't Surrens cameras there before, but then it was like, 393 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: oh well, just conveniently put them on this one specific 394 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: street corner. Yeah. I think like that was one of 395 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: the things I was reading about this is you have 396 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: that stuff. And then also I think one of the 397 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: steers parts of this is that like Army intelligence gets involved, 398 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: and yeah, do you want to talk about the man 399 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: named quote unquote John Jacob, who was in fact not 400 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: that Yeah, so, uh, you know, I'm curious what what 401 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: memories you have of our our good dear friend John 402 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: Jacob Julian. I don't think I ever actually knew him 403 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: in person, but he was the moderator of the list Serve, 404 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: wasn't he. Yes, she's one of the moderators of our 405 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: list serves. Now that I look back on it, I'm 406 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 1: like the port Militarization Resistance the SERUB was always just 407 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: like this dramatic ship show, and it's like, looking back 408 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: on it, I was like, oh, a cop that did nothing, 409 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: that absolutely nothing to like established order or uh if 410 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: that was on purpose. Yeah, so I think there's definitely 411 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: something that happened, Like, you know, looking back from our 412 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: vantage point today, it's like, Okay, things make a little 413 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: more sense at the time though. And we're in this movement, right, 414 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: and so that means like meeting people where they're at. 415 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: We find all kinds of people that would like want 416 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: to join the movement, like I, like I said earlier, 417 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: like active duty soldiers that were joining. So I met 418 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: this guy named John Jacob, and he sent an email 419 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: out to me. I was one of the contacts for 420 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: the Olympia STS group, and it's like, hey, you know, 421 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: there's kind of like a parent organization that's some old 422 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: like elder activists or in uh to kind of mentor 423 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: us called Movement for a Democratic Society, very small, never 424 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: really took off, but like, I'm interested in getting involved. 425 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: We met up in public and he seemed like an 426 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: alright guy. I mean he was, um, you know, forty 427 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: is early forties. He had told me, like, you know, 428 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: been in the military for years, and he actually still 429 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: worked at Fort Lewis, so he was always open about that, 430 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: but it only went that far. He didn't ever tell 431 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: us what he actually did there, and it wasn't abnormal 432 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 1: for you know, we have many folks that worked active duty, 433 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 1: you know, on base and civilian civilian roles or soldiers. 434 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: As I mentioned that, we're in port militarization resistance. So 435 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: he gets involved, and he gets really involved with Port 436 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: Militarization resistance. He goes to protests, He gets pretty close 437 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: with this group of anarchists I mentioned who lived in Tacoma, 438 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: UM and he seemed like a really solid guy to 439 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: to most of us. UM. And you know, things happen 440 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: as as we progress and you know, as the military 441 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: responded to our uh, you know how effective we wore 442 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: in the anti war movement and the g I resistance 443 00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: movement by changing their tactics. We noticed that a when 444 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: we first started the protests, UM, we we had the 445 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: ability to catch the police by surprise by setting up 446 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: you know, blockade here, we're having a surprise action there 447 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: at this time, or this port, etcetera, etcetera. And as 448 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: time progressed, we found out that you know, we were 449 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: having these making these decisions for tactics in our strategy. 450 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: We thought that we're in private and then for whatever reason, 451 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: the police kind of knew about where we were going 452 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: to be before we even showed up. And that I 453 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: remember that Paly happening in two thousand seven the Port 454 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: of Olympia. Yeah, and the COMMA. There are a lot 455 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 1: of things like that. Like there is one time when 456 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: there are like some people who had a meeting in 457 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: a closed room, like all there they had taken the 458 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: batteries out of their cell phones. They had simply written 459 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: on the whiteboard the time and place they're going to 460 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: have their next meeting, which is going to be in 461 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: a diner near the port, and so that way if 462 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: like if for any reason the room with bugs, it 463 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: wouldn't be caught up because it was just written on aboard. 464 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: And then it was like a small meeting too, so 465 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: it's like there weren't and then when they got to 466 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: that dinner, there was like full of cops like clearly 467 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: waiting for them. Like at that point, it's like it 468 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: was very clear there was some some level of infiltration involved. Yeah, 469 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: and I think we are from early on, like you know, 470 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: we we knew our history. I mean, you know, one 471 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 1: of our our fellow activists and p Mars and a 472 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: friend of ours, Peter Boehmer's professor at the Evergreen State College. 473 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: He was in the original Sts back in the sixties, 474 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: and you know, he was essentially a political prisoner for 475 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: a couple of years in both Massachusetts and California. Um, 476 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: I mean the FEDS essentially tried to assassinate him. Um 477 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: back in in the seventies when he was active in 478 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: the anti war movement in San Diego. Like we knew, 479 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, former Black Panthers, and we read our history, 480 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: so we knew about the history of cointelpro the counterintelligence 481 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: program of the six season seventies and the war on 482 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: the anti war and civil rights and black power, American 483 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: Indian movements, etcetera. Um, so we knew, you know, just 484 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: intuitively early on. Uh. But there's one thing that happened 485 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: in particular which prompted some of us to file for 486 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: a public records request with the City of Olympia and 487 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: another activists walking down the street in Olympia. I'm a 488 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: member of the Wobblies Industrial Workers of the World Union, 489 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: and we had like a one of those metal newspaper 490 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: boxes downtown and it was locked to a poll um, 491 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: you know, with a bike lock. And there are some 492 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: city workers there with a pickup truck and they're cutting 493 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: the lock to the newspaper box and they threw it 494 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: in their pickup truck and so are you know, this 495 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: friend of ours was there. It was like, what the hell, 496 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: what are you doing? What's going on? And one of 497 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: the workers just kind of strugged and was like, I 498 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: don't know, the police told us to do this, and 499 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: they drove off like they stole you know, are essentially 500 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: like union property or whatever. Um. So we had you know, 501 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: our our lawyer friend Larry Hilda's and the National Lawyer's 502 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: Guild you know, call and kind of threatened the city 503 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: and and then a number of us got together like, hey, 504 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, let's do like a public records requests UM 505 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: with the City of of Olympia freedom of information law right, 506 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: and so we did. And the request was, you know, 507 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: just requesting any all information the city had UM, any 508 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: exchanges communications by email, etcetera, UM between the police and 509 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: like other agencies about anarchists, I WW, students for a 510 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: Democratic Society UM. And their initial search that the city 511 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: clerk did yielded something like thirty thousand responses. So she's like, okay, 512 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: I gotta narrow this down. And I don't know, I 513 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: was working on the request at the time and for 514 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: some reason, like I don't know where sport protests are 515 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: near a military based communications between the army, not thinking anything. 516 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: And so the initial responses who actually got um you know, 517 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: maybe a hundred hundred thirty years so different documents, just 518 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: copies of emails, etcetera. That UM, we're little puzzle pieces 519 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: for this massive puzzle. And it was just a few 520 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: of them. Uh, and it was you know, there was 521 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: an email talking about our guy in the Navy going 522 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: to a PMR meeting to get some intel. Uh, there's 523 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of things like that. There are 524 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: a few emails in particular, UM and the email address 525 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: was something like John John J. Towry at you know, 526 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: Army dot us whatever the email address was. So there's 527 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: a crew of activists that got together, put their heads together, 528 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: did some research quietly for a few months, and eventually 529 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: found out by publicly accessible information like voter registration records 530 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: and also finding out something about like a motorcycle club 531 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: called like that I don't know, like the Brown Beauque 532 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: Club or the Brown Butt Club or something, and and 533 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: the like. Found out that this John Towery guy that 534 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: was in this motorcycle club and had his you know, 535 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: was registered to vote outside of Tacoma, in this town there. 536 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: It was actually John Jacob. It was this guy that 537 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: we thought was a fellow activist, an anarchist UM and 538 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: and a friend, you know, I thought he was a 539 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: personal friend of mine. Turns out he was actually essentially 540 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: an Army intelligence officer working for something called the Force 541 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: Protection Unit at uh AT Joint Face Joint based Lewis 542 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: McCord and also working with a whole list of different 543 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: agencies and what turned out to be like a massive 544 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: surveillance network that was national in scope. This guy was 545 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: sent by the Army along with many others to infiltrate us, 546 00:32:53,040 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: to aspire on us, and to disrupt us. It was huge. Yeah, 547 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: and that there's one of the things that have always 548 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: so much really steak. So like I learned about from 549 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: militarization resistance basically because I was like poking around the 550 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: history of like informists and I ran into this and 551 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: I was like what because and then that was what 552 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: I thought. One of the things I thought was really 553 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: interesting about this is that like, like I think that 554 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: this chapter of the anti war movement is even on 555 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: the left, is like not very well known, but like 556 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: the seriousness is which the Army seems to have taken 557 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: itsily is really remarkable. Yeah, I'm wondering what you to 558 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: think about that. One thing we have to emphasize is 559 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: is that we were not a large group of people. Yeah, Like, um, 560 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: the number of people who are actively involved in portmoloitaris agast. 561 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: My assistance at its peak was how many people do 562 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: you think it was Brandon. Well, it depends. I mean 563 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: I'd say they're probably like at its peak, maybe probably 564 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: four year to fifty people that would like consistently show 565 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: up to things, you know, maybe a slightly smaller, very 566 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: core group. But we would have demonstrations with like and 567 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: then like four people you know, yeah, and like that 568 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: would be like the max like there is it's like 569 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 1: there are like the peaceful like kind of like support actions. 570 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: You know, you would get like a couple hundred people 571 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: and then like for the stuff like where it's like 572 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: the first night that that the part of the entrance 573 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: to the part of Olympia was occupied, it would be like, Um, 574 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: these were not These were not very large groups of people. Um, 575 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: I feel like and like I said, it's like one 576 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: thing that we need to keep in mind was that, um, 577 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: the peace police were much stronger back then than they 578 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: are now nowadays. Lating like as we saw last year, 579 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: it's like people in the US of Blurn to throw down, 580 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: but that was not the case at the time. And 581 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: so this is a very very small group of people. Um. 582 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: I think we accomplished a lot from with how small 583 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: it was. Um, if it had been larger, it would 584 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:18,959 Speaker 1: have accomplished way more. Um, but even that small core 585 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: of like people with maybe expanding out to like a 586 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: larger group of a couple of hundred, had them that 587 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: scared that they went that far. They're trying to disrupt it. Yeah, 588 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: And and this is one of the things I've been 589 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: thinking about a lot recently of this seems to be 590 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: a very consistent thing, which is it like the two 591 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: things that are guaranteed to like just have a hammer 592 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: drop on you if you touch them is pipelines and ports. 593 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: And that that was that was something you know, we 594 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: we've talked a lot on here about pipeline protests, um. 595 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,760 Speaker 1: But I was interested in what you too think about 596 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 1: because this this is like a very particular moment right 597 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: now in what you're dealing with all these logistics chain failures. 598 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: And I was wondering if, if you do, you think 599 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 1: there's anything that we can learn from how your versions 600 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: of the sort of of port demonstrations worked for potentially 601 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: trying to leverage that in the future, especially with like 602 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: contract negotiations for port workers in Oakland coming up next year. Yeah, 603 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: that's a great question. You know, that is this old 604 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: saying and the I w W direct action gets goods, right, 605 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 1: and I think it really boils down to that it's 606 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: building up uh you know, mass movements and social movements 607 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: from below that rely on direct action, that rely on 608 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:58,280 Speaker 1: civil resistance, civil disobedience. Um yeah, and the pipeline protests 609 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: that have been ongoing where Indigenous people have been on 610 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: the front lines of that for many, many years now. 611 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,399 Speaker 1: I mean, the kind of repression and surveillance that we 612 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: face really pales in comparison to the kinds of you know, 613 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,399 Speaker 1: surveillance of repression that folks were facing at Standing Rock 614 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: for example. Um. You know, I think, of course, one 615 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: of the well one of the main differences is that 616 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: it was primarily the military you know, with us, right 617 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: that was surveilling us, because this is very specifically, you know, 618 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: a war issue and a military issue. Um. But yeah, 619 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: I mean I think, um, you know, like I think 620 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 1: there's a big questions like what what do we have 621 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: to do? That's that's new And to me, I say, 622 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, for both that kind of militant action, but 623 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: also for the labor movements, like it's not you know, 624 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: we don't have to reinvent the wheel. There are things 625 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: that have tried and true track record of getting the 626 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: goods and that is you know, these more disruptive kind 627 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: of actions and movements. Um, and so one of them 628 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: would be you know, I guess my suggestion would be 629 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: to like go back to the basics. And even like 630 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 1: I would say, now, you know this, remember this at 631 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: a time when like Facebook was around, right, like, but 632 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,399 Speaker 1: we weren't really using that for our organizing. We really 633 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: relied on like face to face meetings, you know, phone 634 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: calls and building up trust with people and building up 635 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: our capacity to like take actions and make change. You know, 636 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: I think I'm not saying throw out everything that you know, 637 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: that at least some of the good that social media 638 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: has to offer, but like I think going beyond that 639 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: and going back to these older tactics. And then for 640 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: the labor movement, like the big thing is you know, 641 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,240 Speaker 1: and it's just like a bigger question for for mainstream 642 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,479 Speaker 1: unions in particular, I mean, they're that the whole idea 643 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: of like union contracts is that workers also lose a lot. Yeah, 644 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: they get some things, but uh, business owners and bosses 645 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: have rights carved out in in those contracts. And with 646 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: the longshore workers, I mean, the difficult thing with that 647 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 1: of course, is like there would be some symbolic strikes that, 648 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: of course, like longshore workers have done and continue to do, 649 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: you know, around like the war Iraq historically supporting movie 650 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: a bou Jamal mayde a, etcetera, like in Oakland, Um, 651 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: but they have some things for that written into their contracts, 652 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: and you know, for all these other like unions, it's like, well, 653 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: you know, we can't strike at all for for the 654 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 1: next two years, the next three years, whatever the life 655 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,280 Speaker 1: of the contract is. Like, I think it's a bigger 656 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 1: question and challenge for the labor movement to move beyond 657 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: that and not be putting this strait jacket of contracts 658 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I think that that, particularly, like the 659 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: the no strike clause part of contracts, I think an 660 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: interesting thing because it I don't know, there's not I mean, 661 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: there are some unions that will actually do stuff around 662 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: fighting it, but mostly people just sort of don't care. 663 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: And I think you wind up in a situation where 664 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 1: it seems like you you kind of have to plan 665 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: your tactics around when contract negotiations are happening, because otherwise 666 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: you can't actually get people to do anything more in 667 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: like a one day symbolic strike. Yeah, and or you 668 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: know the challenges, like, you know, we have this great 669 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: American tradition that's not unique to the US. It's universal really, 670 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: and it's one that resonates with me breaking the law 671 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: right and like we're you know, we're like civil disobedience. 672 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: That is that what we were doing in the streets 673 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: and blocking the ports. We were breaking the law and 674 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: we knew it. And that's what the civil rights movement, 675 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: the Black freedom movement did in in the nineties sixties. 676 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: But like we have recent examples of workers breaking the 677 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 1: law and mass like the West Virginia teacher strikes that 678 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: have been a few years ago, like teachers in every 679 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: single county in that state went on strike. They broke 680 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 1: the law and and they want something out of that. 681 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: And I think that's what we really need to encourage people, 682 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: is this idea of breaking out of like the norm 683 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,760 Speaker 1: and and breaking the laws which you know, the laws 684 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: that are in place, which are not there to you know, 685 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: expand our freedom. There there too, contract it. Yeah. One 686 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: of one of my friends kind of joke about what 687 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: was the exact line. It was, it's it's only illegal 688 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: if you get caught, and it only matters if you lose, 689 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: which I think is a good way of thinking about 690 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: both breaking. Yeah, and you know, yeah, I think it's 691 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,840 Speaker 1: also like it's worth mentioning that like the other sides, 692 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: the law doesn't matter to them at all, Like they 693 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: just tear it up and like light it on fire constantly. 694 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: So don't don't bind yourself if if you can, if 695 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,320 Speaker 1: you can, not get caught and not like good a 696 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 1: prison for the rest of your life. Don't bind yourself 697 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,280 Speaker 1: by a bunch of like paper that the other side 698 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 1: just doesn't care about. Yeah, And that's an excellent point, 699 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: because that's the big thing, you know, with the army 700 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 1: and law enforcement in general, like surveillance of us. They 701 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,760 Speaker 1: were in the police just their actions, their brazen actions 702 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,359 Speaker 1: on the street, like the riot police. Um, they were 703 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: just breaking the law all the time. They absolutely have 704 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: a deep visceral hatred of the Bill of Rights, of 705 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: civil rights and civil liberties. And so there were a 706 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: number of, you know, court cases that sprung out of um, 707 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 1: you know, this movement. There was a case called Panagocus Vitari. 708 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: Another Juliana Panagoucus was another PMR member co plaintiff in 709 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: that case, and you know, is it a case against 710 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: the army that you know, we we waged and brought 711 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: up to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals and you know, 712 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,400 Speaker 1: eventually lost and it could have brought it to the 713 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: Supreme Court but didn't. But you know, like the the 714 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,399 Speaker 1: other thing is like the violation of the posse Commentatus Act. 715 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 1: It was a whole other thing. You know, we don't 716 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 1: have to get like so tied up into like the 717 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 1: legalistic thing. But like the point your point is valid, 718 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 1: Like they don't care about the laws that are already there. 719 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: They'll they'll just intentionally break them, break their own laws 720 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 1: that they have set up, and you know, they'll just 721 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: get a slap on the wrist because that's really all 722 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: that's all that happens to them. I think, I think 723 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: I think that's a good note to end on break 724 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: the law. It's fake. It's also bad. Um. Do you 725 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: do have anything you want to plug other than that, 726 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: other than you know, encouraging people to break the cage 727 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:51,399 Speaker 1: your local port? Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's 728 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, I guess just encourage people to do is 729 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, it sounds like what were you're doing by 730 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,919 Speaker 1: having us on the show, and like there are some 731 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 1: in our very recent history, um, you know, movements and 732 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: winds that we all as activists today can still learn from. 733 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: And I think part of that, um you know, I 734 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: don't want to call us elders because we're not that old, 735 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 1: but like one part of that is like making sure 736 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 1: like our movements are still like a multi generational and 737 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,439 Speaker 1: like we we learned from each other and also as 738 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: as Juliana and I did, like I mentioned earlier, like 739 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: we learned from the movements of the past, sts, the 740 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: Black Panthers, the Black Freedom Movement, etcetera. Um, but there's 741 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,359 Speaker 1: a lot that you know, these these struggles I think 742 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: have to offer us today. All right, thank thank you, 743 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,239 Speaker 1: Thank you both for talking coming down and talking with us. 744 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: You're for having us. Thank you. Well, this is this 745 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 1: has when it could happen here find us at happened 746 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 1: here pod on Twitter, Instagram, and the rest of our 747 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,080 Speaker 1: stuff is at closon media at the same somewhat accursed 748 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: social media places. I don't know why I'm saying somewhat, 749 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: they're just a cursed yeah see you next time whenever 750 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: that is it could happen. Here is a production of 751 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. 752 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: Visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 753 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 754 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find sources 755 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,160 Speaker 1: for It could happen here, updated monthly at cool zone 756 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 1: media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.