WEBVTT - Mike DeVries 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.520 Like adding length to create a championship course is just 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:11.039 so backwards, you know, like to difficulty all does it 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.440 just favors the long hitters more and more. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.200 Yeah, it's the places where it makes sense. To do 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.920 that is to do it, is to do it where 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:24.960 you know there's a lot already a long, difficult hole 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.159 and it's already a three shot hole for somebody. You know, 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:30.960 adding forty yards to a three hundred and fifty yard 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:35.959 hold only makes a medium, you know, part four that 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.919 is impossible for the average guy to get to regularly, 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:41.360 and still a wedge for the better player. I miss 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.080 a green, for example, I'm already upset when I find 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.199 my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:47.199 I find my ball in. 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.400 A bright egg Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, fridagg, 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:52.839 Frid Egg Egg, Frida Egg, bride egg. 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:55.000 Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course. 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.720 Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another episode of the 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.880 Frida Egg Podcast. Today we're joined by Mike Devrees, one 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:32.479 of today's forefront architects. He's designed great golf courses such 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:37.959 as Cape Wickham, Kingsley Club, gray Well wells and also 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:42.800 some some nice public courses such as Pilgrim's Run, and 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:47.960 also done some very high profile restorations such as the 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.760 Meadow Club out in San Francisco area. Mike, welcome on. 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:56.600 Thank you. I appreciate it. Looking forward to being a 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:57.240 part of the show. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.680 Yeah, yeah, it'll be it'll be fun to talk architecture. 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:06.240 These conversations always get into deep and dark rabbit holes. 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:11.080 Well that's good. It's a passion that I've grown up 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:13.840 with since I was a kid, and I'm just lucky 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:15.880 I get to do it every day. 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.720 Yeah, So it's usually how I like to start these is. 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.600 I'm always curious about how you got in and to 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.120 architecture and when you knew that you wanted to be 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.120 an architect. So you've had this passion since you were 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:29.480 a kid. 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.240 Yeah. My grandfather taught me the game when I was 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:37.200 six or eight years old, and so I was I 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.680 just was immediately attracted to golf. It was something that 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:46.119 I did with my maternal grandparents and an uncle who 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:48.480 was a really good player. He was a scratch player, 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.280 and so I would hit balls in the front yard. 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:53.839 That was the first kind of thing that we did. 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:58.640 And then I would follow them around and wherever my 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.080 my uncle would finish near the green, I would like 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.400 put my ball down and chip or putt or whatever 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:05.080 he was doing, and you know, try and do what 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:10.480 he did. And I would follow them for their lessons 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:14.000 or anything like that. And then there was a little 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:18.600 nine hole golf course near me, Frankfurt Golf Club, where 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.160 ultimately they would, you know, someone would drop me off 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.959 and I'd play nine holes with whoever was available. And 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.200 then when I was a little older, my my grandparents 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.040 were members at Crystal Down, so I was fortunate to 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.840 be near that and to experience that from an early age. 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.840 And certainly that's one of the great courses in the world, 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:41.640 and I was able to you know, learn about golf there. 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.760 And then when Fred Muller came in the pro at 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:47.800 the Downs, a longtime pro there, he's been there forty 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:52.520 one years now. I started working for Fred in the 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.640 pro shop when I was fourteen, and then a couple 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:57.720 of years later I was working in the pro shop 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:00.160 and on the grounds crew during the week. So every 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:02.560 day of the summer I was I was on the 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:06.440 golf course doing something, whether that was working, you know, 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:10.320 moving bags or getting carts or mowing greens and and 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:12.560 or going back and you know, playing golf and then 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:17.560 late afternoon or something. So it was something that was 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.800 really quite passionate. And when I was seventeen, I kind 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.159 of figured out, you know, breaking bunkers. I kind of 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.320 figured out that crystal downs was a lot more special 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.640 than just the regular Joe blow Muni or whatever. Then 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.360 I played back in Grand Rapids where I grew up, 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:37.040 you know, went to school and stuff, and so I just, 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.560 you know, it was always there. It was always something 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:43.080 that I really really enjoyed, and it was something that 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.279 was you know, part of my life and my family 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.799 and all of that. And then when I finished undergrad, 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.800 I was a business major and I did something else, 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.359 worked for Herman Sporting Goods and figured out their mission 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.000 in life and mind were kind of going an opposite direct, 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:02.479 and I was getting married back up in Frankfurt. I 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.880 came back to the golf course, did some projects on 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:11.600 the golf course for the superintendent and figured out that's 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.960 really what I wanted to do. And Tom Doak at 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:18.279 that time was building high point in his first solo design. 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.560 And we're in Traverse City and my former boss on 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.080 the grounds crew at the Downs was the project manager. 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:28.080 So I went over there and I met Tom, and 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.480 when I got back from camping from my honeymoon, I 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.799 went and helped them finish and clean up High Point, 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:37.800 and then worked with Tom for about two and a 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.320 half years on a couple of different projects down in 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:44.760 Myrtle Beach, the Heathland's course at the Legends Complex, and 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:46.919 then I came back up to Michigan in the Black 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:53.720 Forest golf Course near Gaillard. I ran that project for him, 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:55.359 and then we didn't have another project to go to 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:57.960 and that's when I went back to school and I 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:01.080 got my master's in Landscape architecture from University of Michigan. 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:06.080 And then I've worked for uh for Tom Bosio's group. 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.880 They needed somebody on a couple of projects as a 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.479 design associate, and so I did that for about fifteen 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.440 months out in in Hudson at Hudson National in New 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:18.760 York and the Cordier Valley Club in Vale, Colorado. And 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:21.760 then since then I've came back to Michigan and I've 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:26.159 been doing my own stuff for the last twenty plus years. 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:31.000 So yeah, that's UH, that's cool. You got to I've 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.280 heard a lot of stories. I've been meaning to get 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.200 up to Black Forest. And you know, when you look 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.600 back at at the crew that you guys had there, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.920 it was it was Tom, yourself and and Gil Hands 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.360 and I uh, I mean to talk about three pretty 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:48.320 impressive guys for a three man crew. 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:54.200 Yeah, there were a few other helpers too, but but 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.599 it was, it was, it was. It was a great 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.039 a great product. It was super fun. All we you know, 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.440 we were just talking about golf shots all the time, 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.400 and we were all young and we're all not very 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.920 different in age and things, and so uh it was 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:15.200 a great opportunity just to talk about, you know, what 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.000 we were trying to do and how to how to 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:20.920 best make it work and and uh sometimes we try 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.320 something and just you know, see how it would work 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.040 and it would evolve into something else. And so you know, 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:31.320 that was a really awesome experience. And you know, it 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.960 was a you know, their lifelong friends and and guys 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.440 that you you know, they're everybody's doing really good work 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:41.720 still to this day and try and stuff, and so 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.040 it was it was quite a good experience. 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:45.000 Yeah. 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:49.120 So I've always I'm always curious about when you're on site, 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:53.360 what you guys are doing on the downtime. I mean, 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:55.840 is it is it just all golf all the time? 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:02.200 Uh? Yeah, Well, on site, there's not much downtime. You're 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.320 you know, you're building and when you have good weather. 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:08.080 You know, it depends where you're at in the country, 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.280 but if you're in the north, you know, you're building 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.400 whatever you can build during that time frame. So there 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.720 isn't a lot of downtime. You're on site, you know, 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:18.880 all day you're not playing golf, you're but you're talking 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.000 about golf, or you're playing a little dirt golf, just 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:22.800 hitting shots here and there just to sort of get 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:29.640 a feel for something maybe. So uh, it's it's you're 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:32.280 you're constantly, you know, I mean still to this day, 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.560 constantly thinking about what the shots would be when you're 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.280 building in the dirt, or how that's working, or what 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:42.079 if we shifted this or move this, and you know, 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.120 how do you how do you deal with you know, 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.319 you come up you always run into stuff, whether it's 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.800 a new course or or an old course. You know, 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.040 old courses when you're doing renovation or restoration type work, 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.040 you run into old infrastructure. You know, a lot of 0:08:56.040 --> 0:09:00.480 stuff underground whether that's old irrigation drainage. It could be 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:02.600 drainage that's not even from the golf course. It could 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:05.000 be an old stone drain from a farm one hundred 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.320 and fifty years ago or something, and it's probably in water. 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:11.160 So there's a lot of things that are that are 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.560 really different and you have to you know, I think 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.280 all the above mentioned guys, you know, Tom Gill, myself, 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.960 Ben and Bill, you know, we're we're in the field 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.160 because we believe that's important to be able to make 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.800 those decisions, uh, and and to do that in a 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.080 you know, in a real time manner, and to sort 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.480 of be able to assess it and think about, you know, 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.880 what's the best solution for that, what's the most practical 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:37.440 way to do that? 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:41.880 I imagine. I know one of your courses, Gray Walls, 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:46.280 is way up in the upper Peninsula of Michigan, and 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.440 like you mentioned it, you know, with the northern the 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.240 time constraints. Did you do you feel a little bit 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.440 more pressure when you're designing a course in an area 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.320 that that only has a you know, a finite amount 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.319 of time when you can really moved dirt around, and 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.760 that I'm really curious about that project in general. 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:10.560 Yeah, well, we had a we had a great team 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:15.959 that was involved there. So we had a superintendent Pitchevrette 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.600 who ran the project for the club. And they haven't 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.840 they haven't. They hadn't existing golf course eighteen holes nine 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.120 holes that had been built in twenty six by William Langford, 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.679 which is really good, and then forty years later they 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.040 added another nine holes in the midst with Gil came 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.720 in and did that, not following Langord's original routing, but 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:41.880 then somewhat close, you know, in the same area. Some 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:43.640 of the some of the land had been used for 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.240 some housing and things like that, so he couldn't use 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:51.200 it all or follow follow Languorg's routing in that golf course. 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.320 They were in Marquette, Michigan. They were doing thirty five 0:10:55.360 --> 0:11:00.000 to four thousand rounds a year on that. Yeah, very 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.480 he plays and and they love their golf and they 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:07.640 have really long days in the summer and so they 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.200 they play and play and play and play as much 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.520 as they can. So, you know, they they're very active 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:16.360 people in the you know, all seasons up there, they're 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:20.760 outdoors and because they have such long daylight, they'll do 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.280 they have they have men's and women's leagues and things 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.760 and within the club, and they'll do two hundred. They'll 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.560 have two hundreds around after five o'clock at night, just 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.360 because you know, people will work the whole day and 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:36.040 then they'll go out and play their league. Yeah, so 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:41.800 it's it's busy. We call it the factory short but 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:47.400 we so the Gray Walls project, we had Peachevrett, he 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.520 was he ran, he was sort of the project manager 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:54.320 for the club. And then we had a company out 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:58.679 of Northernes, out of Ashland, Wisconsin, Northern Wisconsin called Northern Clearing, 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:08.600 and they're really experienced with moving big piles of dirt rock. 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.960 They do a lot of things involved with power lines 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.000 and you know, clearing in the middle of nowhere, and 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.960 so it was excellent to have them as a team. 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.520 They also they built about twenty or thirty golf courses also, 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:24.960 so they have a whole other division that deals with golf. 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.080 So we had guys that were experienced and knew what 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:33.080 was going on there. And then we had an irrigation 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:37.720 guy out of Minnesota, See who was really phenomenal. So 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:40.600 there were a lot of pieces that had to go together. 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.080 And you're right, it's a short season and you can 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:46.360 get hit with weather and you want to get grass 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.760 in the ground and planted, and so it was it 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:53.120 was fairly accelerated that way. We did clearing late fall 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.000 in the early spring, and then really the construction was 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.800 done in one season, which is pretty amazing considering it's 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.480 a very rugged site. But we didn't We worked around 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.240 the rock that was there and we have a lot 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.839 of really good sand on site, so the soils are 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:14.920 really quite excellent, good, good growing medium. And superintendent that's 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:20.200 there now, Craig Moore was He took care of the 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.720 the old golf course when we were building, and he 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.240 also had worked at the Kingsley Club under Dan Lucas 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:30.840 for a number of years, so he's a very very 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:35.920 good superintendent and he's he's he Pete. When Pete Chevrett left, 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:40.480 Craig took over the came back up to Marquette and 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.080 has been a superintendent there really almost from day one. 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.920 So really it's a good arrangement and they do an 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:48.600 excellent job. 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:54.040 How with whether you're doing a restoration or renovation or 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:58.960 building a new course, how important is the relationship and 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.760 with the super and and really getting them involved. 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:08.840 It's critical. It's really critical. If you know, if you're 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.040 constantly button heads with somebody that's going to take care 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.520 of the golf course, then what you're trying to build 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.719 is not gonna it's not going to be carried out 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.320 because you know, they may think, oh, well, you know, 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:23.320 I want to do it this way, and that might 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:27.520 not that might not be the vision that's you know, 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:31.000 you're sort of portraying for the golf course. So you know, 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.640 getting to know that person and you know, working with 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:35.480 them on a day to day basis and all that's 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:41.120 really important one so that you can kind of help 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.240 to explain what you're trying to achieve and what you're 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:47.920 trying to do as well as knowing that then they're 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.880 going to be able to take that direction and they're 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:52.680 gonna they're going to maintain it the way that you 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.160 would like it to be maintained and if they have 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.520 a question, they'll call you and talk to you about it. 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:03.120 So it's it's really it's really important. I think it 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.760 leads to a better product and it and then you know, 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.040 it's a team job. Every job is, you know, there's 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.680 a big team. It's not just me. There's a lot 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:16.480 of people that are involved with the project, and and 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:18.080 that person's really critical. 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:24.520 It's I imagine, do you keep in touch with your 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.960 old projects and your you know, the superintendents from the 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.480 old projects with it with some sort of regularity. 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:37.240 Or yeah, fairly, fairly, fairly often depends on the situation, 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.040 you know, not as much as you'd like. You gotta 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:41.600 gotta do other you gotta do new stuff. You gotta 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.240 do new work. You gotta keep paying the bills. So yeah, 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.880 but but yeah, it's important to you know, Hey, what's 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.160 what's happening. How's it going. Kingsley Club is twenty minutes 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.640 from my house, so you know, I'm there a lot 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.280 and uh and it's a special place. It was really 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:02.000 the first completely solo job that I did, so you know, 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:07.520 it's a wonderful, amazing golf course. The ownership has been fantastic. 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:12.000 The superintendent, Dan Lucas, has been there from the beginning 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:15.600 and built a golf course with me. So so we 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:17.680 see each other regularly. If I'm in town and i'm 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:19.880 you know, I'm going to play a game or something, 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:24.400 I'm probably going out there and that, you know, so 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:28.000 we're always seeing stuff and this and that and trying 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.160 to make sure that that we're staying you know, on 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.160 track with stuff. And then ed Walker, the owner, has 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:39.480 been fantastic and you know, he has things about want 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:43.240 to improve or you know, change this or that, little bits, 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:44.920 you know, do we need to add a bunker here 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.320 or there or something. They've added some cabins over the 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.680 years and things like that. So so he's always, uh, 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:56.320 you know, very involved and has been from the beginning. 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.440 And that's that's been a great relationship. Yeah. 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:03.320 So one of our listeners, Tim Ragons, asks about the 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.240 process of laying out Kingsley Club. But I'm just uh, 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:10.480 and speaking more generally, how do you go about routing 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:13.560 a golf course once you once you win a project 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.719 and figuring out how the how the holes are going 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:18.960 to work together and what holes are going to be. 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:23.760 What I'm well, for me, first of all, you just 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.440 got to become you know, really familiar with the with 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:32.680 the property and you have to figure out what's going on, 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:34.439 you know, how do how does the how does it 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:36.360 feel on the ground. Can't just you know, I can 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:41.359 read couple maps and squiggly lines really well, but every 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:45.480 total map I've ever seen also has you know, errors, 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:50.000 of it. So so, and there's stuff that's that's on 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:52.359 total maps that gives you the general broad thing, but 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.399 there's always little bits and pieces that you have to 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:59.080 be there and in the field to see. So when 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:01.760 you're going around and you know, you know that there's 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.480 a knoll over here or this valley or something like that, 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.240 and if you're going around and depending on the property, 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.359 how open it is or how treated it is, et cetera, 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:17.520 maybe you're making notes of the transition from maybe this 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.040 environment to the next environment or wow, there's a really 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:25.480 good drove of you know, oak trees or maple trees 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.280 or pine trees, or maybe there's one there's one big 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:30.560 tree there and stuff like that. So you're trying to 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:35.680 become really intimate with the property and the land, and 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.280 you're trying to find golf holes that naturally fit into 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.080 the land. At least I'm trying to do that. And so, 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.480 you know, with regards to you know, specifically Kingsley and 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:52.280 talking about that the question there. So it was the 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.880 property had been clear cut about fifteen years before we 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.560 were outsite, and so there was a lot of regrowth 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:03.800 of just a thicket of choke cherry and fire cherry 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.320 and aspen trees, and it was I mean, you couldn't 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.879 even walk through lots of it. It was just impenetrable 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.760 great grouse cover and you know, bird hunting cover. But 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.200 and then there were a few areas where there were 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:20.520 like brambles and you know, more of you know, like 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:25.439 wild raspberries or blackberries and stuff like that, and you know, 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:29.919 a few trees left over here and there, so you 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:31.560 could see some of the stuff, but a lot of 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:33.520 the ground you couldn't. So you kind of had there 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:35.240 were some trails going through and you had to kind 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.720 of get used to that and get get a feel 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:44.080 for that. And it's it's severe property in areas, and 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.120 so it was hard to figure some of stuff out. 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.040 One of the holes that I saw isn't actually a 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:51.880 hole on the golf course, but it was a really 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.800 really cool short par five that play for people that 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.520 know the golf course. The third hole, the middle of 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.120 the third hole on the left side of the fairway. 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:06.080 If you played a hole from there back across number 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:09.600 four and the ridge and number two to where the 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:11.919 back te on number six is, that's it's about a 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.320 five hundred yard hole and it's it's a really cool 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.879 you know, there's all these ups and downs and you know, 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:21.960 little ridges and spots and bowls and things like that, 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:27.880 and would have made it really interesting challenging for you know, 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:31.680 for a better player to hit it too. But you know, 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:35.520 you could plot out three shots and you know, really 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:37.520 try and place your ball and get the position and 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.200 things like that. The only problem with that is it's 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:42.719 a great at hole. It just didn't work with anything 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.960 else and it chopped up a lot of things. So instead, 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.600 you know, what happened is we had this what I 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:53.960 call the South forty, which is that area down there's 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.680 about forty acres where you have the ridge on number 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:04.120 two down to you know where seventy six green and 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.160 four t and three green are. It's all this big 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:11.399 area surround this deep sinkhole in the middle of two, 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.640 four and six. And so instead of one great hole 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:17.640 this par five that we found right away, we have 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.679 a really really cool little ridge top par three, we 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.800 have a you know, two par fours, one a little 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.640 bit longer than the other that tumble and bumble kind 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:30.679 of on ground that leaves and gives and leaves you 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:33.359 with a shot. But sometimes you're gonna have a blind 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:35.199 shot into the green if you go into one of 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.280 the balls, and sometimes you're gonna see on the top 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:41.640 of the ridge. And then five is a paralleling. It's 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:45.359 kind of off to the side of this south forty 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:48.880 but plays an entirely different opposing par three to number 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:51.560 two into a big punch bowl green. And then you 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:57.400 have six across and around the deep sinkhole. And then 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:01.560 seven leaves that in a in a dramatic fashion with 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:05.159 the downhill drive and stuff into an area that is 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:08.760 enclosed instead of being totally wide open and seeing all 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:12.639 these other holes. So we gave up this one really 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:17.280 cool par five, so we got five to six, you know, 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:19.959 really good holes out of it because of how we 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:22.520 could utilize that land. So that was one of the 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:27.440 things that you know, that particular question the guy's asking 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:29.560 about laying out Kingsley was trying to figure out how 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:32.160 those those puzzle pieces fit together. And that of course 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.080 any sort of project that you're. 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:38.639 Doing, so it's you probably walk, so you walk the 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.560 land and you obviously you see you see it all 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:43.639 the time, Like I'm driving down the road and I 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.560 look and I'm being like, I see. That would be 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.240 a really great golf hole. Can I imagine that happens 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:52.399 with you more so than me. But you walk this 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:55.760 land and you identify some of the golf holes you 0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:59.159 like the most. But you can't be married to him 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:01.040 because when when you try and put the hole to 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:03.840 puzzle together, you know some of those are going to 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:06.000 You're going to lose some of those holes almost all 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:06.400 the time. 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:11.199 Right, Absolutely, you've got to find. To me, it's not 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:14.879 about one great hole. It's about the sequence of holes 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:19.000 and how holes transition from one to the other. And 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:23.600 so one of the things that okay, so kind of 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:26.399 figured out the south forty, which is in the corner 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:30.760