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Speaker 1: Like adding length to create a championship course is just

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Speaker 1: so backwards, you know, like to difficulty all does it

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Speaker 1: just favors the long hitters more and more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the places where it makes sense. To do

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Speaker 2: that is to do it, is to do it where

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Speaker 2: you know there's a lot already a long, difficult hole

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Speaker 2: and it's already a three shot hole for somebody. You know,

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Speaker 2: adding forty yards to a three hundred and fifty yard

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Speaker 2: hold only makes a medium, you know, part four that

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Speaker 2: is impossible for the average guy to get to regularly,

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Speaker 2: and still a wedge for the better player. I miss

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Speaker 2: a green, for example, I'm already upset when I find

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Speaker 2: my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when

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Speaker 2: I find my ball in.

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Speaker 1: A bright egg Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, fridagg,

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Speaker 1: Frid Egg Egg, Frida Egg, bride egg.

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Speaker 2: Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.

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Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another episode of the

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Speaker 1: Frida Egg Podcast. Today we're joined by Mike Devrees, one

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Speaker 1: of today's forefront architects. He's designed great golf courses such

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Speaker 1: as Cape Wickham, Kingsley Club, gray Well wells and also

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Speaker 1: some some nice public courses such as Pilgrim's Run, and

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Speaker 1: also done some very high profile restorations such as the

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Speaker 1: Meadow Club out in San Francisco area. Mike, welcome on.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate it. Looking forward to being a

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Speaker 2: part of the show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it'll be it'll be fun to talk architecture.

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Speaker 1: These conversations always get into deep and dark rabbit holes.

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Speaker 2: Well that's good. It's a passion that I've grown up

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Speaker 2: with since I was a kid, and I'm just lucky

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Speaker 2: I get to do it every day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's usually how I like to start these is.

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Speaker 1: I'm always curious about how you got in and to

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Speaker 1: architecture and when you knew that you wanted to be

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Speaker 1: an architect. So you've had this passion since you were

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Speaker 1: a kid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. My grandfather taught me the game when I was

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Speaker 2: six or eight years old, and so I was I

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Speaker 2: just was immediately attracted to golf. It was something that

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Speaker 2: I did with my maternal grandparents and an uncle who

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Speaker 2: was a really good player. He was a scratch player,

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Speaker 2: and so I would hit balls in the front yard.

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Speaker 2: That was the first kind of thing that we did.

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Speaker 2: And then I would follow them around and wherever my

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Speaker 2: my uncle would finish near the green, I would like

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Speaker 2: put my ball down and chip or putt or whatever

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Speaker 2: he was doing, and you know, try and do what

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Speaker 2: he did. And I would follow them for their lessons

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Speaker 2: or anything like that. And then there was a little

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Speaker 2: nine hole golf course near me, Frankfurt Golf Club, where

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Speaker 2: ultimately they would, you know, someone would drop me off

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Speaker 2: and I'd play nine holes with whoever was available. And

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Speaker 2: then when I was a little older, my my grandparents

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Speaker 2: were members at Crystal Down, so I was fortunate to

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Speaker 2: be near that and to experience that from an early age.

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Speaker 2: And certainly that's one of the great courses in the world,

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Speaker 2: and I was able to you know, learn about golf there.

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Speaker 2: And then when Fred Muller came in the pro at

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Speaker 2: the Downs, a longtime pro there, he's been there forty

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Speaker 2: one years now. I started working for Fred in the

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Speaker 2: pro shop when I was fourteen, and then a couple

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Speaker 2: of years later I was working in the pro shop

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Speaker 2: and on the grounds crew during the week. So every

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Speaker 2: day of the summer I was I was on the

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Speaker 2: golf course doing something, whether that was working, you know,

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Speaker 2: moving bags or getting carts or mowing greens and and

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Speaker 2: or going back and you know, playing golf and then

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Speaker 2: late afternoon or something. So it was something that was

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Speaker 2: really quite passionate. And when I was seventeen, I kind

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Speaker 2: of figured out, you know, breaking bunkers. I kind of

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Speaker 2: figured out that crystal downs was a lot more special

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Speaker 2: than just the regular Joe blow Muni or whatever. Then

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Speaker 2: I played back in Grand Rapids where I grew up,

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Speaker 2: you know, went to school and stuff, and so I just,

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Speaker 2: you know, it was always there. It was always something

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Speaker 2: that I really really enjoyed, and it was something that

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Speaker 2: was you know, part of my life and my family

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Speaker 2: and all of that. And then when I finished undergrad,

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Speaker 2: I was a business major and I did something else,

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Speaker 2: worked for Herman Sporting Goods and figured out their mission

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Speaker 2: in life and mind were kind of going an opposite direct,

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Speaker 2: and I was getting married back up in Frankfurt. I

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Speaker 2: came back to the golf course, did some projects on

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Speaker 2: the golf course for the superintendent and figured out that's

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Speaker 2: really what I wanted to do. And Tom Doak at

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Speaker 2: that time was building high point in his first solo design.

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Speaker 2: And we're in Traverse City and my former boss on

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Speaker 2: the grounds crew at the Downs was the project manager.

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Speaker 2: So I went over there and I met Tom, and

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Speaker 2: when I got back from camping from my honeymoon, I

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Speaker 2: went and helped them finish and clean up High Point,

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Speaker 2: and then worked with Tom for about two and a

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Speaker 2: half years on a couple of different projects down in

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Speaker 2: Myrtle Beach, the Heathland's course at the Legends Complex, and

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Speaker 2: then I came back up to Michigan in the Black

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Speaker 2: Forest golf Course near Gaillard. I ran that project for him,

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Speaker 2: and then we didn't have another project to go to

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Speaker 2: and that's when I went back to school and I

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Speaker 2: got my master's in Landscape architecture from University of Michigan.

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Speaker 2: And then I've worked for uh for Tom Bosio's group.

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Speaker 2: They needed somebody on a couple of projects as a

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Speaker 2: design associate, and so I did that for about fifteen

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Speaker 2: months out in in Hudson at Hudson National in New

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Speaker 2: York and the Cordier Valley Club in Vale, Colorado. And

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Speaker 2: then since then I've came back to Michigan and I've

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Speaker 2: been doing my own stuff for the last twenty plus years.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that's UH, that's cool. You got to I've

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Speaker 1: heard a lot of stories. I've been meaning to get

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Speaker 1: up to Black Forest. And you know, when you look

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Speaker 1: back at at the crew that you guys had there,

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Speaker 1: it was it was Tom, yourself and and Gil Hands

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Speaker 1: and I uh, I mean to talk about three pretty

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Speaker 1: impressive guys for a three man crew.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there were a few other helpers too, but but

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Speaker 2: it was, it was, it was. It was a great

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Speaker 2: a great product. It was super fun. All we you know,

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Speaker 2: we were just talking about golf shots all the time,

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Speaker 2: and we were all young and we're all not very

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Speaker 2: different in age and things, and so uh it was

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Speaker 2: a great opportunity just to talk about, you know, what

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Speaker 2: we were trying to do and how to how to

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Speaker 2: best make it work and and uh sometimes we try

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Speaker 2: something and just you know, see how it would work

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Speaker 2: and it would evolve into something else. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: that was a really awesome experience. And you know, it

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Speaker 2: was a you know, their lifelong friends and and guys

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Speaker 2: that you you know, they're everybody's doing really good work

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Speaker 2: still to this day and try and stuff, and so

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Speaker 2: it was it was quite a good experience.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I've always I'm always curious about when you're on site,

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Speaker 1: what you guys are doing on the downtime. I mean,

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Speaker 1: is it is it just all golf all the time?

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Speaker 2: Uh? Yeah, Well, on site, there's not much downtime. You're

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Speaker 2: you know, you're building and when you have good weather.

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Speaker 2: You know, it depends where you're at in the country,

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Speaker 2: but if you're in the north, you know, you're building

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Speaker 2: whatever you can build during that time frame. So there

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Speaker 2: isn't a lot of downtime. You're on site, you know,

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Speaker 2: all day you're not playing golf, you're but you're talking

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Speaker 2: about golf, or you're playing a little dirt golf, just

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Speaker 2: hitting shots here and there just to sort of get

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Speaker 2: a feel for something maybe. So uh, it's it's you're

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Speaker 2: you're constantly, you know, I mean still to this day,

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Speaker 2: constantly thinking about what the shots would be when you're

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Speaker 2: building in the dirt, or how that's working, or what

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Speaker 2: if we shifted this or move this, and you know,

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Speaker 2: how do you how do you deal with you know,

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Speaker 2: you come up you always run into stuff, whether it's

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Speaker 2: a new course or or an old course. You know,

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Speaker 2: old courses when you're doing renovation or restoration type work,

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Speaker 2: you run into old infrastructure. You know, a lot of

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Speaker 2: stuff underground whether that's old irrigation drainage. It could be

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Speaker 2: drainage that's not even from the golf course. It could

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Speaker 2: be an old stone drain from a farm one hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty years ago or something, and it's probably in water.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of things that are that are

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Speaker 2: really different and you have to you know, I think

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Speaker 2: all the above mentioned guys, you know, Tom Gill, myself,

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Speaker 2: Ben and Bill, you know, we're we're in the field

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Speaker 2: because we believe that's important to be able to make

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Speaker 2: those decisions, uh, and and to do that in a

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Speaker 2: you know, in a real time manner, and to sort

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Speaker 2: of be able to assess it and think about, you know,

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Speaker 2: what's the best solution for that, what's the most practical

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Speaker 2: way to do that?

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Speaker 1: I imagine. I know one of your courses, Gray Walls,

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Speaker 1: is way up in the upper Peninsula of Michigan, and

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Speaker 1: like you mentioned it, you know, with the northern the

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Speaker 1: time constraints. Did you do you feel a little bit

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Speaker 1: more pressure when you're designing a course in an area

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Speaker 1: that that only has a you know, a finite amount

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Speaker 1: of time when you can really moved dirt around, and

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Speaker 1: that I'm really curious about that project in general.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we had a we had a great team

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Speaker 2: that was involved there. So we had a superintendent Pitchevrette

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Speaker 2: who ran the project for the club. And they haven't

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Speaker 2: they haven't. They hadn't existing golf course eighteen holes nine

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Speaker 2: holes that had been built in twenty six by William Langford,

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Speaker 2: which is really good, and then forty years later they

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Speaker 2: added another nine holes in the midst with Gil came

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Speaker 2: in and did that, not following Langord's original routing, but

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Speaker 2: then somewhat close, you know, in the same area. Some

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Speaker 2: of the some of the land had been used for

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Speaker 2: some housing and things like that, so he couldn't use

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Speaker 2: it all or follow follow Languorg's routing in that golf course.

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Speaker 2: They were in Marquette, Michigan. They were doing thirty five

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Speaker 2: to four thousand rounds a year on that. Yeah, very

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Speaker 2: he plays and and they love their golf and they

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Speaker 2: have really long days in the summer and so they

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Speaker 2: they play and play and play and play as much

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Speaker 2: as they can. So, you know, they they're very active

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Speaker 2: people in the you know, all seasons up there, they're

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Speaker 2: outdoors and because they have such long daylight, they'll do

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Speaker 2: they have they have men's and women's leagues and things

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Speaker 2: and within the club, and they'll do two hundred. They'll

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Speaker 2: have two hundreds around after five o'clock at night, just

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Speaker 2: because you know, people will work the whole day and

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Speaker 2: then they'll go out and play their league. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: it's it's busy. We call it the factory short but

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Speaker 2: we so the Gray Walls project, we had Peachevrett, he

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Speaker 2: was he ran, he was sort of the project manager

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Speaker 2: for the club. And then we had a company out

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Speaker 2: of Northernes, out of Ashland, Wisconsin, Northern Wisconsin called Northern Clearing,

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Speaker 2: and they're really experienced with moving big piles of dirt rock.

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Speaker 2: They do a lot of things involved with power lines

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Speaker 2: and you know, clearing in the middle of nowhere, and

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Speaker 2: so it was excellent to have them as a team.

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Speaker 2: They also they built about twenty or thirty golf courses also,

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Speaker 2: so they have a whole other division that deals with golf.

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Speaker 2: So we had guys that were experienced and knew what

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Speaker 2: was going on there. And then we had an irrigation

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Speaker 2: guy out of Minnesota, See who was really phenomenal. So

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Speaker 2: there were a lot of pieces that had to go together.

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Speaker 2: And you're right, it's a short season and you can

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Speaker 2: get hit with weather and you want to get grass

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Speaker 2: in the ground and planted, and so it was it

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Speaker 2: was fairly accelerated that way. We did clearing late fall

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Speaker 2: in the early spring, and then really the construction was

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Speaker 2: done in one season, which is pretty amazing considering it's

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Speaker 2: a very rugged site. But we didn't We worked around

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Speaker 2: the rock that was there and we have a lot

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Speaker 2: of really good sand on site, so the soils are

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Speaker 2: really quite excellent, good, good growing medium. And superintendent that's

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Speaker 2: there now, Craig Moore was He took care of the

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Speaker 2: the old golf course when we were building, and he

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Speaker 2: also had worked at the Kingsley Club under Dan Lucas

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Speaker 2: for a number of years, so he's a very very

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Speaker 2: good superintendent and he's he's he Pete. When Pete Chevrett left,

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Speaker 2: Craig took over the came back up to Marquette and

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Speaker 2: has been a superintendent there really almost from day one.

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Speaker 2: So really it's a good arrangement and they do an

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Speaker 2: excellent job.

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Speaker 1: How with whether you're doing a restoration or renovation or

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Speaker 1: building a new course, how important is the relationship and

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Speaker 1: with the super and and really getting them involved.

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Speaker 2: It's critical. It's really critical. If you know, if you're

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Speaker 2: constantly button heads with somebody that's going to take care

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Speaker 2: of the golf course, then what you're trying to build

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Speaker 2: is not gonna it's not going to be carried out

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Speaker 2: because you know, they may think, oh, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: I want to do it this way, and that might

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Speaker 2: not that might not be the vision that's you know,

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Speaker 2: you're sort of portraying for the golf course. So you know,

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Speaker 2: getting to know that person and you know, working with

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Speaker 2: them on a day to day basis and all that's

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Speaker 2: really important one so that you can kind of help

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Speaker 2: to explain what you're trying to achieve and what you're

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Speaker 2: trying to do as well as knowing that then they're

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Speaker 2: going to be able to take that direction and they're

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Speaker 2: gonna they're going to maintain it the way that you

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Speaker 2: would like it to be maintained and if they have

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Speaker 2: a question, they'll call you and talk to you about it.

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Speaker 2: So it's it's really it's really important. I think it

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Speaker 2: leads to a better product and it and then you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a team job. Every job is, you know, there's

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Speaker 2: a big team. It's not just me. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of people that are involved with the project, and and

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Speaker 2: that person's really critical.

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Speaker 1: It's I imagine, do you keep in touch with your

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Speaker 1: old projects and your you know, the superintendents from the

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Speaker 1: old projects with it with some sort of regularity.

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Speaker 2: Or yeah, fairly, fairly, fairly often depends on the situation,

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Speaker 2: you know, not as much as you'd like. You gotta

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Speaker 2: gotta do other you gotta do new stuff. You gotta

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Speaker 2: do new work. You gotta keep paying the bills. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: but but yeah, it's important to you know, Hey, what's

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Speaker 2: what's happening. How's it going. Kingsley Club is twenty minutes

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Speaker 2: from my house, so you know, I'm there a lot

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Speaker 2: and uh and it's a special place. It was really

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Speaker 2: the first completely solo job that I did, so you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a wonderful, amazing golf course. The ownership has been fantastic.

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Speaker 2: The superintendent, Dan Lucas, has been there from the beginning

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Speaker 2: and built a golf course with me. So so we

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Speaker 2: see each other regularly. If I'm in town and i'm

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to play a game or something,

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Speaker 2: I'm probably going out there and that, you know, so

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Speaker 2: we're always seeing stuff and this and that and trying

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Speaker 2: to make sure that that we're staying you know, on

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Speaker 2: track with stuff. And then ed Walker, the owner, has

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Speaker 2: been fantastic and you know, he has things about want

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Speaker 2: to improve or you know, change this or that, little bits,

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Speaker 2: you know, do we need to add a bunker here

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Speaker 2: or there or something. They've added some cabins over the

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Speaker 2: years and things like that. So so he's always, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, very involved and has been from the beginning.

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Speaker 2: And that's that's been a great relationship. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So one of our listeners, Tim Ragons, asks about the

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Speaker 1: process of laying out Kingsley Club. But I'm just uh,

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Speaker 1: and speaking more generally, how do you go about routing

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Speaker 1: a golf course once you once you win a project

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Speaker 1: and figuring out how the how the holes are going

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Speaker 1: to work together and what holes are going to be.

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Speaker 2: What I'm well, for me, first of all, you just

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Speaker 2: got to become you know, really familiar with the with

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Speaker 2: the property and you have to figure out what's going on,

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Speaker 2: you know, how do how does the how does it

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Speaker 2: feel on the ground. Can't just you know, I can

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Speaker 2: read couple maps and squiggly lines really well, but every

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Speaker 2: total map I've ever seen also has you know, errors,

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Speaker 2: of it. So so, and there's stuff that's that's on

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Speaker 2: total maps that gives you the general broad thing, but

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Speaker 2: there's always little bits and pieces that you have to

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Speaker 2: be there and in the field to see. So when

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Speaker 2: you're going around and you know, you know that there's

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Speaker 2: a knoll over here or this valley or something like that,

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Speaker 2: and if you're going around and depending on the property,

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Speaker 2: how open it is or how treated it is, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: maybe you're making notes of the transition from maybe this

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Speaker 2: environment to the next environment or wow, there's a really

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Speaker 2: good drove of you know, oak trees or maple trees

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Speaker 2: or pine trees, or maybe there's one there's one big

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Speaker 2: tree there and stuff like that. So you're trying to

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Speaker 2: become really intimate with the property and the land, and

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Speaker 2: you're trying to find golf holes that naturally fit into

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Speaker 2: the land. At least I'm trying to do that. And so,

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Speaker 2: you know, with regards to you know, specifically Kingsley and

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Speaker 2: talking about that the question there. So it was the

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Speaker 2: property had been clear cut about fifteen years before we

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Speaker 2: were outsite, and so there was a lot of regrowth

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Speaker 2: of just a thicket of choke cherry and fire cherry

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Speaker 2: and aspen trees, and it was I mean, you couldn't

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Speaker 2: even walk through lots of it. It was just impenetrable

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Speaker 2: great grouse cover and you know, bird hunting cover. But

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Speaker 2: and then there were a few areas where there were

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Speaker 2: like brambles and you know, more of you know, like

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Speaker 2: wild raspberries or blackberries and stuff like that, and you know,

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Speaker 2: a few trees left over here and there, so you

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Speaker 2: could see some of the stuff, but a lot of

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Speaker 2: the ground you couldn't. So you kind of had there

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Speaker 2: were some trails going through and you had to kind

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Speaker 2: of get used to that and get get a feel

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Speaker 2: for that. And it's it's severe property in areas, and

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Speaker 2: so it was hard to figure some of stuff out.

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Speaker 2: One of the holes that I saw isn't actually a

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Speaker 2: hole on the golf course, but it was a really

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Speaker 2: really cool short par five that play for people that

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Speaker 2: know the golf course. The third hole, the middle of

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Speaker 2: the third hole on the left side of the fairway.

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Speaker 2: If you played a hole from there back across number

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Speaker 2: four and the ridge and number two to where the

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Speaker 2: back te on number six is, that's it's about a

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Speaker 2: five hundred yard hole and it's it's a really cool

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Speaker 2: you know, there's all these ups and downs and you know,

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Speaker 2: little ridges and spots and bowls and things like that,

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Speaker 2: and would have made it really interesting challenging for you know,

347
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Speaker 2: for a better player to hit it too. But you know,

348
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Speaker 2: you could plot out three shots and you know, really

349
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Speaker 2: try and place your ball and get the position and

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Speaker 2: things like that. The only problem with that is it's

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Speaker 2: a great at hole. It just didn't work with anything

352
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Speaker 2: else and it chopped up a lot of things. So instead,

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Speaker 2: you know, what happened is we had this what I

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Speaker 2: call the South forty, which is that area down there's

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Speaker 2: about forty acres where you have the ridge on number

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Speaker 2: two down to you know where seventy six green and

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00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 2: four t and three green are. It's all this big

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Speaker 2: area surround this deep sinkhole in the middle of two,

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Speaker 2: four and six. And so instead of one great hole

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Speaker 2: this par five that we found right away, we have

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Speaker 2: a really really cool little ridge top par three, we

362
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Speaker 2: have a you know, two par fours, one a little

363
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Speaker 2: bit longer than the other that tumble and bumble kind

364
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Speaker 2: of on ground that leaves and gives and leaves you

365
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 2: with a shot. But sometimes you're gonna have a blind

366
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Speaker 2: shot into the green if you go into one of

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Speaker 2: the balls, and sometimes you're gonna see on the top

368
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Speaker 2: of the ridge. And then five is a paralleling. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of off to the side of this south forty

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Speaker 2: but plays an entirely different opposing par three to number

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Speaker 2: two into a big punch bowl green. And then you

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Speaker 2: have six across and around the deep sinkhole. And then

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00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 2: seven leaves that in a in a dramatic fashion with

374
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 2: the downhill drive and stuff into an area that is

375
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 2: enclosed instead of being totally wide open and seeing all

376
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Speaker 2: these other holes. So we gave up this one really

377
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Speaker 2: cool par five, so we got five to six, you know,

378
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,959
Speaker 2: really good holes out of it because of how we

379
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: could utilize that land. So that was one of the

380
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Speaker 2: things that you know, that particular question the guy's asking

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Speaker 2: about laying out Kingsley was trying to figure out how

382
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 2: those those puzzle pieces fit together. And that of course

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Speaker 2: any sort of project that you're.

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Speaker 1: Doing, so it's you probably walk, so you walk the

385
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Speaker 1: land and you obviously you see you see it all

386
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Speaker 1: the time, Like I'm driving down the road and I

387
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Speaker 1: look and I'm being like, I see. That would be

388
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Speaker 1: a really great golf hole. Can I imagine that happens

389
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 1: with you more so than me. But you walk this

390
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Speaker 1: land and you identify some of the golf holes you

391
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 1: like the most. But you can't be married to him

392
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Speaker 1: because when when you try and put the hole to

393
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: puzzle together, you know some of those are going to

394
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: You're going to lose some of those holes almost all

395
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Speaker 1: the time.

396
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Speaker 2: Right, Absolutely, you've got to find. To me, it's not

397
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: about one great hole. It's about the sequence of holes

398
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 2: and how holes transition from one to the other. And

399
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 2: so one of the things that okay, so kind of

400
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 2: figured out the south forty, which is in the corner

401
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: of four hundred acres, But how do we get to that,

402
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 2: or how do we use that as a beginning or ending,

403
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 2: or how does that transition with other stuff? Well, the

404
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: hard part at Kingsley was east of that, east of

405
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 2: the east of the front nine is a big wetland

406
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 2: down there that isn't easy to work around, doesn't necessarily

407
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 2: make for a great call, is environmentally sensitive, So transitioning

408
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 2: that way was difficult. Can't go south off the property,

409
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: can't go west off the property, so you got to

410
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 2: go north. And then how do you how do you

411
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,959
Speaker 2: do that? How do you transition that? And so seven,

412
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 2: you know, ultimately ended up being a simple part of

413
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 2: that problem because we didn't want to climb seven back

414
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 2: up to the tee that that wouldn't make for a

415
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 2: very good hole. So leaving the property there was was

416
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: an easy way to think about it. Eight kind of

417
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 2: fell into place because of just really cool ground and

418
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: a great green site at the base. You know that

419
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 2: little raised platform that the green is there. There was

420
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: a shelf there on that hill and so there was

421
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 2: shaping involved, but you know that a lot of that

422
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: was kind of in place, and the and the big

423
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: bunker in the middle of the fairway, there was a

424
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 2: mound there, and the ridge was there where the what

425
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: we call the three amigos and the on the drive

426
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 2: they were there. So all those kind of tied together,

427
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 2: and nine kind of set up so with the par

428
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 2: three and having two different angles and stuff, those those

429
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 2: areas were just there. All we did is flatten off

430
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 2: the tops of those ridges and and little bomps and

431
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: stuff and made a tea. So that was that was

432
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 2: a you know, kind of simple. The hard thing was

433
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 2: what how do we how do we get out there, Yeah,

434
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 2: you were, how do you lead? And so ultimately that

435
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 2: ended up being do we do that in like two

436
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: holes or do we do it in one? And ultimately

437
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 2: it ended up being the first hole, which was a

438
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: big hole, and and we created the big shelf and

439
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: the bunkers in the middle, and and you know, works

440
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: out really well. It's it's intimidating for a lot of

441
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: for a lot of people are their first thing and

442
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 2: they see, wow, that's my drive. But but I think

443
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 2: it plays. It actually plays really well, and it doesn't

444
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: play as difficult if you if you don't get too

445
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 2: aggressive with it, if you're just like an average player.

446
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 2: You know, if you just hit a regular drive and

447
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 2: hit it up there, you have a decent chance. And

448
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 2: the and the green is is in a you know,

449
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: a nice little shelter bowl there, and you can play

450
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 2: shots off of the right side, and so there's opportunity there,

451
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 2: you know, to start out well, but you can screw

452
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: it up well too. I did that the other day.

453
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 4: That's that's the that's the beauty of golf is you know,

454
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 4: I think you put yourself out there and you give

455
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 4: people the opportunity to screw up.

456
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 5: Because I we do that.

457
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: We do that pretty easily. We're golfers.

458
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's something I always it bugs me when I

459
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: see trees in front of hazard, like trees in front

460
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: of bunkers. Is on like a short par five is

461
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: let give people the opportunity to hit themselves in, get

462
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: themselves into that forty yard away bunker and have that shot,

463
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: because you know, being in there in two and making

464
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 1: a six is like the most frustrating thing if you

465
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: if you're if you have trees, people are probably just

466
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: gonna lay up and hit their wedge up there, and

467
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: it kind of removes the interest, right right. So I

468
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: think something that from your website that I found interesting

469
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: was it kind of how you your philosophy on on

470
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 1: adding difficulty for the you know, the really good player

471
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: and especially combating technology and with the modern game and

472
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: how how it's growing, Like, what are your philosophies in

473
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: terms of marrying playability with ch unique challenge and interest

474
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: for the you know, scratch player.

475
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I think you have to give

476
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: them options. If you give a really good golfer only

477
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 2: one option, they they commit on that and and they

478
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,479
Speaker 2: make that shot because they're good, they're really good. So

479
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 2: if you give them three options, all of a sudden,

480
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: there's a little bit of doubt if I can get

481
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 2: ten or fifteen percent, a doubt in the good golfer's mind,

482
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: they may don't maybe they don't fully commit to that shot,

483
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 2: and then they have a tendency to make an error,

484
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: you know, and then that sort of compounds itself. The

485
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: technology is out of control, so we won't get into that,

486
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 2: but you know, it's hard to it's it's hard to

487
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: design for that. But I think if you give people options,

488
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: and you give them variety and diversity, then for the

489
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: better player, that's more decisions and more complexity, and that

490
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: gives them a little bit of doubt, and that I

491
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: think makes it more fun ultimately or more challenging. And

492
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 2: for a guy that you know, all he ever does

493
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: is just bomb a driver and grab a wedge and

494
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: hit it, which is kind of what the PGA Tours

495
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: become just because of how technology is. You know, that's

496
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: not really exciting golf, particularly for the average golfers. And

497
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 2: so if you can build in variety and interest and

498
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: diversity and options, then the average guy who can't depend

499
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 2: on hitting it one hundred and eighty or two hundred

500
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: and twenty or how many yards you know, they're capable

501
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: of hitting it. They you know, they get themselves into

502
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: positions and then they have to assess. And if you

503
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: have a narrow fair way with lots of long rough,

504
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: you know, they have one option and they just whack

505
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: it out. But they have they spray the ball, but

506
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: they get themselves in a bad angle and there's a

507
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: bunker kind of in their way and they're not really sure.

508
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: Then the average player that thinks about it but can

509
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: execute a shot to get into a position that maybe

510
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: gives him a better opportunity, and he and he does that,

511
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: then they get a little charge. They get energized about

512
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: it and it's like, wow, I did that. That was cool.

513
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: So that's achievement in itself, but it also makes it

514
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: more interesting and more exciting for every level of player

515
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: to be able to do something.

516
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: I think it's almost like you give the average player

517
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: they could be as long as there aren't like trees

518
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: in their way or they're in really really long rough.

519
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: It's they feel like they have this They have this

520
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: illusion of hey, I can hit this shot. If they

521
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: have a clear shot to the green, you know, there

522
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: might be a bunker in the way, they might have

523
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: the worst angle to a green that runs away, but

524
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: they feel like they have a chance versus you know,

525
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: a ball rolling into the water, rolling into the trees.

526
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: Sure, I mean a lot of that, you know, growing

527
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 2: up and playing with my grandfather, and towards the end

528
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: of his life, he wasn't hitting the driver. He hit

529
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,479
Speaker 2: his three wood. I don't know why I ever put

530
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: it back in the bag, because you know, he hits

531
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: three at least twice on every hole. And then you

532
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: know he you know, in a long and a long hold,

533
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: he hit three of those and some sort of chip

534
00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: and run up there in a putt for five more

535
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 2: the time. And I, of course would hit it a

536
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: lot further than he, but i'd be in the weeds

537
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: or something, you know, when I was a kid, and

538
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: and I'm out there scrambling and trying to get back

539
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 2: and criss crossing all over the place, and you know,

540
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: I'd make bogue. I'd make double bogey, and he'd make bogey,

541
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: and you know, let me move on to the next hole.

542
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: Both guys are crafty, exactly.

543
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: It's how much as an architect, how interesting, how much

544
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: goes into watching. You know, when you play golf, say

545
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: with like a wide range of players, how much do

546
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,239
Speaker 1: you watch the way different players play golf courses and

547
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: think about that when you're designing.

548
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 2: Of course, I think about it a lot. And you know,

549
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: I enjoy playing with a wide variety of players too.

550
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: I mean it's it's you know, I've gotten I've gotten

551
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 2: better over time, probably just because I manage my game

552
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: better or whatever, and don't get into trouble as much

553
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 2: and don't hit it as far as I too. But

554
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: it's to me, it's interesting to do that. And I'm

555
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: always interested in in any any other golfers, you know,

556
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: opinion of what I've built or what they just played,

557
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: and why and and because every golfer has an opinion,

558
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 2: we all know that. And you know, they may not

559
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: be looking at what I'm looking at, and so I

560
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: can learn from that. I guess I look at that way. So,

561
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: for instance, fifteen years ago or so, Pilgrim's Run had

562
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: been open for you know a couple of years, and

563
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 2: my aunt and uncle and cousin who had all played golf,

564
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: you know, more than they were playing at that time.

565
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: And this is my uncle that used to be a

566
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: scratch player, and my aunt had was a decent player

567
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 2: at the time, and I used to play golf with

568
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: her when I was little too, but she hadn't really

569
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: played much in you know, a while, and my cousin

570
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 2: had played something not much recently. Went out to Pilgrim's

571
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: Run and you know, we had a really good time

572
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: and my uncle, you know, his game started, you know,

573
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: coming alive and and he really enjoyed, you know, a

574
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 2: couple he's like, oh, I got to try that shot again.

575
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: You know, that was really cool. So that was exciting.

576
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: But at the end, I asked my aunt, I said,

577
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: you know, what did you like? And she said, oh,

578
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: you don't want to know what. I know what I think,

579
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,239
Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, I do, because everybody's looking at

580
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: something different. She said, well, I just like being out

581
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: there and seeing turkey and deer. It wasn't anything about

582
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: the golf. She just liked the experience of being out

583
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: in nature and you know, having a good time with family.

584
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: So so that's that's entirely valid. Uh that made you know,

585
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: that may not help me as far as you know

586
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: how to build a golf hole, but that's important too.

587
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 2: You know, A perspective a puller. Yeah, that polar golf

588
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: experience is important to a lot of a lot of players.

589
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: It's uh, yeah, it's it's perspective because you get wrapped

590
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: up like I'm a huge golfer and I deep and uh,

591
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: pretty much every aspect of the game except for equipment,

592
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: and but I you know, it's always so important to

593
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: keep the perspective of what the casual golfers out there

594
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: to do, and especially you know, the one that might

595
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: only play two three rounds a year, you know, around

596
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: a year.

597
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

598
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you've done a.

599
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: Pretty extensive a restoration work and you've also you also

600
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 1: obviously grew up at Crystal Downs. I'd love to talk

601
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: a little bit about Golden Age architecture and the influences

602
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: you've had and kind of who you've who you've taken

603
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 1: away a lot of you know, inspiration from I imagine

604
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: Mackenzie is a huge influence. But curious if if there

605
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: are any any others.

606
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 2: Well, Mackenzie and Maxwell, you know, certainly first off, because

607
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 2: you know, growing up at Crystal Bounds and we're in

608
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: there and spending thousands of days on the golf course there,

609
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: their impact is really you know it's been most influential,

610
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 2: but all of those, you know, whether it's Tilling, Hasts,

611
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: Ross Rayner, McDonald stuff, George Thomas, you know, Harry Cole,

612
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 2: thom Simpson, all of those guys did stuff and did

613
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: stuff at a high level, and you can learn from

614
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 2: any of those. So when you're working on a on

615
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: a project and you're you're sort of part of archeologists

616
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: and and trying to figure it out and fix you know,

617
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 2: maybe some structural problems or something that was changed because

618
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: of something out of the club's control or the original

619
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 2: designers control. A lot of times that leads to you know,

620
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: a better understanding of that project or or that designer.

621
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: So to me, that's always really fun and exciting, and

622
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 2: it's more more interesting to see what they did with

623
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: would say limited. I mean, they moved a lot of

624
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: dirt in some cases. You know McDonald was really good

625
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 2: at that. You know, if he wanted something, he would

626
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: move the end of the world to do that. Whether

627
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 2: that was leto you know, they they moved a lot

628
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: of dirt at the National too, so that sort of

629
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 2: stuff wasn't unheard of, but it was unusual at that time.

630
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 2: I guess you know, guys were trying to find ways

631
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: of building and working within the landscape. And I think

632
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: that's some of the stuff that whether you want to

633
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: call it minimalism or whatever, you know, that's that's what's

634
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 2: driving a lot of the work that I do. And

635
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 2: I think that's what's driving a lot of the stuff

636
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: that uh that Tom Doak and Bill Hans and Bill

637
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: Cornback Crensch are doing. So, you know, working with that

638
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 2: land and finding out how to do that and finding

639
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: the way that a property as interests and uniqueness and

640
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 2: all that that stuff ends up being something that that

641
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:14,439
Speaker 2: can be really really good golf and you meet golf.

642
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily having to manufacture something all the time.

643
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: Just try and get the best out of what that

644
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: piece of ground offers you.

645
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: And I think given the economic state and what happened

646
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: in the in the eighties, nineties and early two thousands,

647
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: it makes the most sense economically, certainly it does.

648
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: Economics is always a factor, So you know, trying to

649
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: do that and being efficient with things, and you know

650
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: that works. That works at any any time in history. Really,

651
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 2: you know, even if even things are flush, you know,

652
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: why do why do more than you have to to

653
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 2: create something. So maybe maybe to you know, have a

654
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 2: bigger story or something, but I don't think that's necessary

655
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 2: to create good golf.

656
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

657
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: So for for say a beginner architecture fan, you know,

658
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: somebody who's just getting into it, and they go play

659
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: a Golden Age course or or one of your courses

660
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: or a Tom Doak design or Corn Crunshaw, what are

661
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: what is something that they can look for around the

662
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: golf course, like, you know, something to start to take

663
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: in when they play new golf courses or even playing

664
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: their own golf course.

665
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: Well, I think for me, one of the things that

666
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: one of the things that's a big difference for me is,

667
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 2: you know, is how is the rhythm and flow of

668
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 2: the golf course? So how do you transition? And we

669
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: talked a little bit about that, you know, and trying

670
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: to figure out a routing it Kingsley and stuff earlier,

671
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 2: but any golf course that's for me that's really really important.

672
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 2: And part of that is because I think that that

673
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 2: transition if you get off the green and you and

674
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 2: you just roll right into the next tee in a

675
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: in a short and simple sort of fashion, and then

676
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, the next hole is presented to

677
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: you in a good in a good way. Uh, then

678
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 2: you know that each hole leads to each other in

679
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: that transition. Even if you don't have ocean side or

680
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 2: you know, some spectacular feature on the property, you've got

681
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 2: a solid, really good golf course that ties together. There's

682
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 2: a lot of there's a lot of Donald Ross golf

683
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 2: courses that you know, we're built in cities or you know,

684
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 2: on sort of underscript land that work well in that

685
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 2: fashion and that flow together well. And so I think

686
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: if you think about that, think about, Wow, you know

687
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 2: I got off that. You know, it wasn't a very

688
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 2: big transition to the next tee and the next The

689
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 2: next te presented the next hole to me in a

690
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: really good way. I kind of I knew what I

691
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: wanted to do. It gave me, It gave me options,

692
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 2: It gave me a good idea of where I should

693
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: play and how that constantly works throughout the round. You

694
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 2: can kind of think of it as you know, the

695
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,240
Speaker 2: old guys, everybody was walking, they didn't have golf carts,

696
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: and so maybe part of that, you know why there's

697
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 2: better flow and rhythm to those golf courses had to

698
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 2: do with you know, they they weren't thinking about Okay,

699
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 2: I'm you know, I got golf carts, I got a

700
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 2: cart path, I have this, and you know, and that's

701
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 2: sort of an element of today's golf. But can you

702
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: make the golf course walkable too, because that's really the

703
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 2: way the game started. And you know, if you're there

704
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: are people that are hardcore walkers, and I walk, you know,

705
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: most of the time when I play. But that is

706
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 2: a you know, that's sort of a pace of the game.

707
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: Pace of the game is kind of a human scaled,

708
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 2: human paced game. So and if you're you know, on

709
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 2: you know, this nice little stroll and you have to

710
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 2: be playing golf and it just sort of comes in.

711
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: But if you've got a bunch of long transitions because

712
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 2: you're going through a housing development or something, not that

713
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 2: those don't have their place. They do, but how can

714
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 2: you how can you minimize those types of things and

715
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 2: make it flow better and make it make it, you know,

716
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: something that someone could walk. So like Gray Walls up

717
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: in Marquette, it's a pretty severe sight and everything. And

718
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: the first t is three quarters of a mile from

719
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: the clubhouse because the clubhouse is part of the the

720
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: original golf course complex, so they shuttle if you're going

721
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: to walk, which the golf course is walkable, but they

722
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 2: they drive you out in the you know, the limo

723
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 2: cart and pick you up after eighteen. But the golf

724
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 2: course actually does work fairly well for most of the part.

725
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 2: There are some tougher transitions because of elevation, but the

726
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: golf courses is really a pleasant walk and and gets

727
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: down and flows together, which is.

728
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: Cool as a as a place I've been dying to

729
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: get to. This summer was just a lot. Next summer,

730
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna have to get up there. How

731
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: do you go about something I pay attention to A lot?

732
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: Is the variety within the course, whether it be you know,

733
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 1: the par three is having different you know, different lengths,

734
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: different shots, different looks. But then also like within the course,

735
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: you know, how am I am I being asked to

736
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 1: hit you know, draws on multiple holes in a row

737
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: or is there a good blend of fade.

738
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 5: Holes and draw holes?

739
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: How you know?

740
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 3: Within that?

741
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: How much do you guys think about that when you're designing.

742
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: I think, well, I think you think about it quite

743
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: a bit, but I don't think you try and force

744
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 2: it either. Yeah, you know the best thing is that

745
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 2: you know, this whole fit in here, Yeah it does,

746
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 2: and what next sol dude fits there? So you have

747
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 2: three holes in a row where you have to hit

748
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 2: you know, the Nicholas power fade. Okay, great, that may

749
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: be the way that it works, but for me, the

750
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: sequencing is and how they transition is maybe more important.

751
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: But at length, you do want to have variety within

752
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 2: whether you're just thinking about the part threes, the short fors,

753
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: the medium fours, long furs, the part five. So you

754
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 2: want variety within those each of those sub sections, but

755
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: you also want to have them feel like, you know,

756
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 2: they work together on the golf course. And I think

757
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 2: that's one of the things when we talk about rhythm

758
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: and flow. Excuse me, I think you I think you

759
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 2: have to look at sections of the golf course might

760
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 2: be more difficult just because of the train that they're

761
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: on or what what it lends itself to. And you

762
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 2: may have some other parts of the golf course that

763
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 2: maybe are you know, appear to be easier, but you

764
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:10,439
Speaker 2: might not necessarily score well there either too. So that's

765
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 2: part of the you know, kind of that rhythm of

766
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 2: the golf course. And in that round and you can

767
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 2: use that to your advantage. So you can have you know,

768
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 2: really really tough sections of holes right together, and that

769
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,240
Speaker 2: could that could be three s fours and fives together,

770
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 2: or it could be you know, two long fours or whatever.

771
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 2: Those types of things can help, you know, give identity

772
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 2: or or something to a golf course. So think about

773
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 2: Augusta National an amen corner. So you know the eleven,

774
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: you know, is a demanding, h you know, long four

775
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 2: with water next to the green, and then you've got

776
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 2: you know, this short little pitch shot that just seems

777
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: to kill everybody's round. And then you've got this really wonderful, short, short,

778
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 2: short five that provides all different kinds of options things

779
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 2: to you. So a lot of variety in their definition.

780
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 2: And you know, i'd say twelve and thirteen or two

781
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: of the great holes in the world. You know that helps, uh, yeah,

782
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: but you can you can think about that in other

783
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 2: ways also, So you know Kingsley, I mean, we have

784
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 2: a big tie that opens up and you know a tricky, little,

785
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 2: you know, demanding second hole, and then you've got a

786
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 2: couple of par fours that have this sort of tumble bumble.

787
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: So it's not necessarily an easy start, but if you

788
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 2: you know, if you do, you know, make a couple

789
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 2: of pars, you know, right off the bat, and then

790
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 2: you know, you get you know, three pars in a

791
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: bow or something in the first four holes. You know

792
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: you've had a really good start, and you know, so

793
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 2: things can things can turn up, and you know, sometimes

794
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: you don't start well. You know, you might get a

795
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 2: double bowe in the bowe in the first two hole.

796
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 2: I've done that before, and I you know, I've at

797
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: thirty seven or thirty eight on the front. So you know,

798
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: then at the rest of the nine, I you know,

799
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 2: I did pretty well. So you have opportunities to gain

800
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 2: or lose within that and so I think I'm thinking

801
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 2: about that a lot. But I'm also trying to provide

802
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 2: not necessarily. I guess my philosophy is you like to

803
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 2: give someone It might not be an overt you know,

804
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: draw or fade shot into something, but a certain pin

805
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 2: location or from this side of the fairway or that's

806
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: out of the fairway might that might be a better shot.

807
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 2: But that might depend on the player too. Some player

808
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: might might not like that and might want to try something.

809
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: You know, if someone is constantly a pader of the ball.

810
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,240
Speaker 2: You know, they may want to be in a certain

811
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: position to try something else. Yeah, then you might. Then

812
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: some other player might, so you got to give them

813
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 2: an opportunity to do that.

814
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think that's one of the most important

815
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 1: things too, is you know, I think there can be

816
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 1: a preferred shot shape, but I don't like when design

817
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: dictates that you have to hit this shot because then

818
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 1: you know, the majority of golfers just you can you

819
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: might not be able to hit that shot in your sol.

820
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

821
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I want to get into some listener questions.

822
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: We got a ton of them, and I think your

823
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: most acclaimed course and we haven't even touched on it

824
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: is uh is Cape Wickham down in Australia on King's

825
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: Island or Tasmania, and uh I wanted to. We had

826
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: Simon asked about the project kind of what are you

827
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: most proud of of that design? But then also what

828
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: did you learn from it and if you would change anything,

829
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: what would you change?

830
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's a challenge because king Island is remote,

831
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 2: but it's really quite accessible. It's only a forty minute

832
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 2: flight from Melbourne, so so as far away as it is,

833
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 2: you can really get there, and it's it's close to

834
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: a lot of people, not necessarily for Americans, but for Australians. Uh,

835
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: it's a it's a very windy site in the middle

836
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: of the back straight, so it's and it's exposed right

837
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 2: on the ocean and really, you know, we had to

838
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 2: create a lot of it just to accommodate that. And

839
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 2: you know, knowing that it's it's still quite playable. I

840
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 2: played it in close to a gale force win and

841
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 2: you know, really only lost one ball, and that's because

842
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: it rolled off of the eighteenth green and I didn't

843
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 2: want to go down the bank and try and find it.

844
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 2: I think, you know, it was you were able to

845
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 2: if you if you didn't try and aggressively attack things,

846
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 2: you had an opportunity to play a shot, you know,

847
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: and keep it low and along the ground and stuff

848
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,399
Speaker 2: like that. So that was I think that's turned out really,

849
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 2: really well, and I'm really excited about that. The artist

850
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 2: challenge there, I think is that it's so dramatic. It's

851
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 2: the property. It's the most diverse property I've ever seen.

852
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 2: It's the most amazing sight I've ever seen for a

853
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 2: golf course. Because you're right on the ocean, and you

854
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 2: have clip top holes. You have holes that are in

855
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 2: dunes with just really unbelievable movement to them. You have

856
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: holes that are right down on the ocean level, the

857
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 2: eleventh holes basically in the ocean. You've got holes that

858
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 2: go inland. You've got you've got a you know, a

859
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 2: headline that you start out on and you finish on

860
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 2: this sandy cove beach the beaches and play, you know,

861
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 2: on this on this idyllic sort of lagoon. So you know,

862
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 2: think of the Blue Lagoon and you know in the

863
00:49:58,040 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 2: movies and things like that. I mean, it's just an

864
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 2: unbelievable spot. And then the kicker is you've got one

865
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 2: of the tallest lighthouses in the world, Kate Pick and Whitehouse,

866
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 2: which was built in eighteen sixty one, is in It's

867
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty seven feet tall. So it's super

868
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 2: dramatic and that could be really overwhelming. And the golf

869
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 2: had to be really really good too, you know, not

870
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: just have is the first thing people do is they

871
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 2: get there and they and they go, oh, you know,

872
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: insert exploitive. So it's incredible. You know, that reaction is

873
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,280
Speaker 2: good as the pictures are of it. You go there,

874
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 2: it's even that much more dramatic. And so with that

875
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 2: over with that sort of spectacle overwhelm the design. But

876
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 2: people are they're talking about the golf holes and this

877
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: shot and that shot or whatever, and so you know,

878
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 2: that's really exciting.

879
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: I imagine with the holes being so exposed, you have

880
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: to be really careful on greens, especially with you know,

881
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: the way people like to get modern green speeds up.

882
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we I mean we were very cognizant of that.

883
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 2: So the greens for the most part are not you know,

884
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 2: super undulating. I mean, there's there's contour on them, but

885
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: it's also they're all rescue, so they're not going to

886
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 2: run as fast on a daily basis as a bent

887
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 2: grass green is going to or the greens that are

888
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 2: in in the Melbourne area, whether that's Royal or Metropolitan

889
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 2: or Victoria, any of those courses. So so it's a

890
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: little bit different there. But the greens roll through, they're firm,

891
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 2: and the benefit of that also is that with this,

892
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 2: you know, with all fascue everywhere, the ground game and

893
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 2: true links golf really comes to life because when the

894
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 2: wind's up, you got to keep that ball down and

895
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 2: you've got to have an opportunity to play a little

896
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 2: bump and run shots to get them in there. And

897
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 2: then if you know, if your ball rolls off, it's

898
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 2: not it's not an overly bunker golf course. We don't

899
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 2: We didn't really need that from a I didn't really

900
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 2: need that from a from a strategy or a you know,

901
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 2: just a visual aspect. There's enough visual going on there,

902
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 2: so you know, the bunkers are really set up for

903
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:33,919
Speaker 2: challenging golfers to hitch hit certain shots or to skirt them,

904
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: you know, to get a better advantage. But there's a

905
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 2: lot of short grass around greens, so if you miss it,

906
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 2: if you miss a target, you have opportunities to you know,

907
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: bump and run the on the ground and the bescue

908
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 2: really really works well for that. So and I think

909
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 2: that was that's one of the things that's really neat

910
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: about the golf course.

911
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to get to Australia. I might spend

912
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 1: like a month there. There's just so much down there,

913
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: and especially with the you know, all the new development

914
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: that's happening down there, and obviously looking at photos of

915
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: Cape Wickham, it makes you feel like you need to

916
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:15,760
Speaker 1: go sooner than later.

917
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, right, isn't that where you're going on your honeymoon?

918
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: I wish I'm going to Saint Lucia, which I didn't

919
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: think was had any golf but then I found that

920
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: there is a golf course, so I might have to

921
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: have to check it out, get some rental CBS. I'm

922
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: sure it's uh, it's got some some shrunk greens and

923
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: some overgrown fairways is what I'll get. Well, I guess

924
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 1: will happen, but there it might be a pretty good

925
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: golf course.

926
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you never know, Yeah, yeah, I know. It's you know,

927
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 2: King Island is is amazing. You know, it's a part

928
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 2: of the State of Tasmania, which is a state of

929
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 2: Australian that they call it the Island State, and you know,

930
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 2: King Island is just a smaller aspect of that and

931
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 2: halfway between Victoria and the main island of Tasmania. So

932
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 2: King Island is is a just an amazing place. You know,

933
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: it's sort of a throwback in time. The people, they

934
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 2: are phenomenal. The dairy industry and you know, the beef

935
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:28,959
Speaker 2: and dairy industry is a big factor, the seafood and

936
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 2: it's just a really fun, comfortable place to you know,

937
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:38,439
Speaker 2: place to be. People are fantastic and relaxed and and

938
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 2: you know, we loved it. It was a great family

939
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 2: experience because I had the opportunity to bring my family

940
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 2: over there. Uh, and they were they were there for

941
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 2: My daughter was there for a couple of months, but

942
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 2: my wife and son were there for six months during

943
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 2: the project and stuff too, So it was it was

944
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:54,479
Speaker 2: really neat.

945
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's it sounds awesome.

946
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: It's gonna be cool to get to bring your family

947
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: to place like that. We got a question from double

948
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: J here, and I think it was it's a good one,

949
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: given your your background with with Crystal Downs and familiarity

950
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: with Perry Maxwell. If Perry Maxwell was based in Chicago

951
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 1: or New York, would he be considered a top five architect?

952
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: He says rarely mentioned, but his courses flow are terrific.

953
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 2: Uh, it's a good question. I think the problem with

954
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 2: you know, Perry's the time period that he worked, you know,

955
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 2: was primarily the Depression where there wasn't much stuff going on.

956
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 2: So I think Perry's you know, lack of say, public

957
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 2: adoration really has to do with the time period that

958
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:56,720
Speaker 2: he worked in versus the work that he did, because

959
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 2: his work is phenomenal. Prairie Dunes is unbelievable, and all

960
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 2: the courses that he touched on too, that he did

961
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 2: little bits and pieces too. He did a lot of

962
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 2: the original little tucks and you know, Nips to Augusta

963
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 2: National and so a lot of his stuff is still

964
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 2: out there. People just don't recognize it certainly. You know,

965
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 2: being based in Oklahoma wasn't to his advantage. Yeah, but

966
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 2: I think it's you know, it's his recognition from in

967
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 2: a public aspect. I think he has more to do

968
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:40,280
Speaker 2: with his time period than it does with his location,

969
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 2: because he did get around. You know, you think about

970
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 2: Harry Cole. You know here in the States, Harry Cole

971
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 2: doesn't really get a lot of exposure. But you know,

972
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 2: he was in London and he's influenced a lot of

973
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 2: guys in the business and did a lot of amazing work,

974
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 2: but he's not really recognized here in the US. You know,

975
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 2: Alistairs recognized, you know, because we talked about it at

976
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 2: Augusta every year, and Cyprus Point obviously in Royal Melbourne,

977
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 2: so you know, very high profile golf courses that old

978
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 2: excuse excuse, me high profile golf courses that whole tournaments

979
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 2: or have held tournaments that Cypress Point was involved with,

980
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 2: you know, when being Crosby had the so and and

981
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's still just you know, it's it's

982
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 2: a legendary place. So I think he may, he may,

983
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 2: but I think it's more of the time period.

984
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 5: That's that's a good point.

985
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: The Great Depression, really, I feel like was a it

986
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: was a was one of the worst things that happened

987
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 1: to golf course architecture because the whole development, the philosophy

988
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: almost took a hard shift because there is such a

989
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 1: dead period and design and and new philosophies came out

990
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 1: of you know, when people people almost just started fresh

991
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: and it was like a whole new thing. When when

992
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: golf courses started to be built again.

993
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, art it's definitely difficult, but there was some

994
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 2: great stuff that was done during that time too. So

995
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 2: you know, for instance, Prairie Dunes, you know that that

996
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 2: first nine holes there, Wilsonian Links course in in North's

997
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 2: amazing place. Under totally underrated, I think, oh so under ye,

998
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 2: the bet Page courses, you know, so there was there

999
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 2: was still some good stuff done well.

1000
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 1: He touched on Langford earlier. He's got to be one

1001
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: of the more underappreciated architects of all time.

1002
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 2: Incredible work. Uh, he certainly doesn't doesn't get his stuff

1003
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 2: just isn't, as you know, well known. And a lot

1004
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 2: of the things he did because he was basically in

1005
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 2: the Midwest here. He did a lot of courses, for instance,

1006
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 2: like the old course up at Marquette Doll Club where

1007
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 2: he designed eighteen holes, but they only built nine, yeah,

1008
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 2: because that's all board at the time it was a

1009
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 2: smaller town or something. And then you know, the other

1010
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 2: nine holes got built by somebody else later down the road,

1011
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 2: and you know those are it's really evident, what are

1012
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 2: the better golf holes? When you play those play those courses,

1013
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 2: it's language there. They're not just you know, a step

1014
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 2: above their leaps above the other holes on the golf course.

1015
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 2: And so that is incredible.

1016
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: It's like Culver is a nine hole course in Indiana,

1017
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: but it was the original plan was for twenty seven there,

1018
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 1: and you think about what he would you know, nine

1019
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 1: hole courses just they're tough because they don't get as

1020
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:55,439
Speaker 1: much a claim. But I mean building a great nine

1021
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: holes that you wonder what it would have been if

1022
00:59:57,880 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: it was all twenty seven.

1023
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:03,959
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, So we.

1024
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 1: Do we do a thing you said, very underrated. We

1025
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 1: one of our sticks here is over it. We have questions, overrated, underrated,

1026
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: and we'll we'll kind of splice splice those in because

1027
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 1: we got some some regular questions and some overrated underrated,

1028
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 1: and with overrated underrated just say, hey, is this overrated

1029
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 1: or underrated? But the template idea of template holes and

1030
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 1: this is from Marquette Golf Club, Uh, overrated, underrated.

1031
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 2: Overrated For the most part.

1032
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 5: I think, Hm, it's uh.

1033
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 1: I'm a template hole guy, but I like to see

1034
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: fresh twists on him now in modern architecture.

1035
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that does make it, That does make it

1036
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 2: better that way.

1037
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 1: You need to get that.

1038
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1039
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1040
01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: And then here's the here's one from.

1041
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 5: Con Or Doherty.

1042
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 1: Which iconic golf hol would you like to see changes

1043
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: made to anywhere?

1044
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:14,959
Speaker 2: Well, that's their iconic golf holds for a reason, right, yeah, yeah,

1045
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 2: So so why would we why would we want to

1046
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 2: change them? I guess the way to the way to

1047
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 2: think about that would be that we should probably change

1048
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 2: one that had been changed for some other reason and

1049
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 2: change it back to what it was originally.

1050
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 1: That's that's kind of what I was thinking along those lines.

1051
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1052
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: His second half of the question is is almost a

1053
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: direct uh. He almost leads you right into that. And

1054
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 1: and with the with the us An this week in mind,

1055
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 1: he says overrated, underrated, the tenth hole at.

1056
01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 2: Riviera underrated, underrated man one of the greatest. It's one

1057
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 2: of the greatest holes in the world.

1058
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 1: It's it's unbelievable that it's way underrated. But I mean

1059
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 1: it fits exactly what you're talking about with all the

1060
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 1: options and how it makes uh makes the great player think.

1061
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: But for for the everyday player, it's it's uh, you know,

1062
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: it's a short part.

1063
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 2: For it's achievable and that's that's that's why it is

1064
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 2: so great, and it's so phenomenal and and and pros.

1065
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 2: It should be an easy hole for him, and they

1066
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 2: somehow manage to screw it up all the time. Yeah,

1067
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 2: which is awesome.

1068
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I I played there, uh last summer, and

1069
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 1: you know, I obviously watched the telecast so many times

1070
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 1: and and everybody's like, you just can't hit it in

1071
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 1: that right bunker.

1072
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 5: You can't.

1073
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: You have to aim left you have to aim left.

1074
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 1: And sure enough, I get on the tee, I pull

1075
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 1: out driver and I'm like, I should just aim at

1076
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 1: the left side of the green, not left the green,

1077
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 1: and I hit I hit my driver a little right

1078
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 1: and I end up in the bunker and and I

1079
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: hit the best bunker shot of my life, Like the

1080
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 1: best bunker shot of my life. And I yell up,

1081
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: like where did that end up? They're like, oh, over

1082
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: the green.

1083
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 5: It's just like.

1084
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 1: That's yeah, it's a And then I, you know, I

1085
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: had to make a really good up and down just

1086
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 1: to make four. It's just it puts so much stress

1087
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 1: on you and as a as a as a scratch player,

1088
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: but it's so it's it's so just right there for

1089
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: the for like, if my dad, who's like a sixteen

1090
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 1: handicap played it, I don't think he'd think twice about it.

1091
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's it's just a it's an unbelievable golf hole,

1092
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 2: and it's it's you know, that's it's probably the best

1093
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 2: you know, short part for in the world. I mean,

1094
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 2: just with regards to that. You know, there was a

1095
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 2: question there about the best drivable part, so that's probably it.

1096
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 2: But you know, and in general, I think like having

1097
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 2: a quote drivable power four might be it depends on

1098
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 2: which way you're looking at it. But you know, those

1099
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 2: could those could be kind of underrated in a lot

1100
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 2: of in a lot of regards because people think, oh,

1101
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 2: it's just too easy. But if it's if it's really

1102
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 2: well done, you know it's it's it's one of the

1103
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 2: more fun holes on the on the golf course. And

1104
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 2: that's really the separation of the great short furs, of

1105
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 2: the separation of the great great golf holes and the

1106
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 2: great golf course excuse me in the world.

1107
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the short part four is obviously had like

1108
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:54,680
Speaker 1: just a huge resurgence. I think one of the things

1109
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 1: that the short part four and the reachable par five

1110
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 1: is done is they've diminished the skill of building a

1111
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 1: great long part five or long part four. What are

1112
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: kind of your philosophies around doing those. I think those

1113
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: are kind of now the hardest hole is to build

1114
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 1: and have people say, wow, that was a great hull.

1115
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 2: Well for the high level player, you can't build a

1116
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 2: long part five. I mean there's six hundred and fifty

1117
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 2: yard part fives in the US Opening and guys hit

1118
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 2: the six Linds into them. So what so what's what's

1119
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 2: a long part? Five eight hundred and fifty five yards.

1120
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 2: I don't know is true that, you know, that just

1121
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 2: seems crazy to me, So I think it it has

1122
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 2: more to do with, you know, how something fits into

1123
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:52,959
Speaker 2: the land and making guys make shots. And I don't

1124
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 2: know that for you know, for that that high level player,

1125
01:05:56,560 --> 01:06:00,560
Speaker 2: the pros. I don't know that there's any five that

1126
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:02,560
Speaker 2: we have in the world that that is a true

1127
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 2: three shot hole anymore. Twenty years ago that was true.

1128
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 2: There were some holds like that, but that just doesn't

1129
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 2: happen anymore. I think with the technology, it's yeah.

1130
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 1: They get to like a wet like now really like

1131
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 1: a good three shot hole isn't a good three shot

1132
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 1: hole because like they hit driver, they lay up to

1133
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 1: a wedge and it's just a wedge jam.

1134
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's unfortunate for the for

1135
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 2: the for the average guy though, for the regular club player,

1136
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:38,680
Speaker 2: and even you know, even the good club player. You know,

1137
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 2: three shot holes are are demanding, and you know the

1138
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 2: really good ones demand three good shots. So you know,

1139
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 2: you have to hit a decent drive to get into

1140
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 2: position to you know, have a good second shot, whether

1141
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 2: you can get get home into or you know, your

1142
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 2: third shots got to be you know, something reasonable so

1143
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 2: you can get it close. And you can do that

1144
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 2: with with tough green design, you know, and make things

1145
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 2: more difficult that way, but you've got to have options

1146
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:14,760
Speaker 2: for that also. So I think that's that's fun. The

1147
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 2: fourteenth that at Kingsley is a is a par five,

1148
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 2: and you know, it's it can play short depending on

1149
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 2: where you hit your drive because there's kind of a

1150
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:25,480
Speaker 2: power slot. If you hit it over the bunkers, your

1151
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 2: ball can carry and it can run quite a way.

1152
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 2: And so you know, even an average hitter on occasion

1153
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 2: has times where he can get to get home into

1154
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 2: or get really close to the green, you know, which

1155
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 2: is which is kind of cool. But it's a demanding

1156
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 2: green and you know, it's a demanding shot to get

1157
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 2: in there. And the third shot is fun even if

1158
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 2: you're laying up and playing off to the side. So

1159
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 2: that type of stuff is you know, I think it's

1160
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 2: fun and successful being able to do that.

1161
01:07:55,000 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 4: That's it's that's I guess, yeah, it's it is.

1162
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:02,080
Speaker 5: It's tough.

1163
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 1: I think that's a it's just I think long part

1164
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 1: fours and long par fives are now underrated in.

1165
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 5: My mind, but.

1166
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:15,000
Speaker 1: Because of like the resurgence of the short part four

1167
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 1: and short part five, I think, you know, demanding holes

1168
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:20,759
Speaker 1: that there they have like a little bit less interest,

1169
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 1: but they're they're so good. One they're really good. Like

1170
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, you look at the road hole. So how

1171
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 1: to So mikeh Iration has a couple questions. The first

1172
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 1: one is very very open ended. What makes a good

1173
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: golf hole in your mind?

1174
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 2: Well, it's something that responds to what that particular piece

1175
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 2: of ground has so and it and it involves having

1176
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 2: something that's sort of unique with within that the scope

1177
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 2: of that whatever that environment is there, and it makes

1178
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:06,760
Speaker 2: a golfer think about I want to try this or

1179
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 2: that or should I you know, blow it over that

1180
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 2: bunker or he It forces a golfer to make decisions.

1181
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 2: Sometimes that decision might be rudimentary, but rudimentary decision might

1182
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 2: lead to a more difficult decision, you know, further down

1183
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 2: the golf hole. So I think, you know, making the

1184
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 2: golfer think about what he wants or wants to try

1185
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 2: to do, I think is really good and important and

1186
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:39,360
Speaker 2: and you've got to have a good green complex because

1187
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 2: you know, if you have you know, an awesome hole

1188
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:44,320
Speaker 2: all the way up to the green, then you have

1189
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 2: this dead flat green with you know, nothing really going

1190
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 2: on around it. That's not real fun for a lot

1191
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:56,519
Speaker 2: of people because that that might be the only thing

1192
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 2: that some that some golf have. They don't have length,

1193
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 2: They can't overpower a golf hole, but they can hit

1194
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 2: a precise, little wedge shot or something like we were

1195
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,599
Speaker 2: talking about, you know, my grandfather and the other old

1196
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:13,200
Speaker 2: guys you know, a while back. You know, they they

1197
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,240
Speaker 2: they drinking along, drinking along, drinking along, get it up

1198
01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:18,080
Speaker 2: there close and make a pot and make a five,

1199
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:23,080
Speaker 2: and you know occasionally they get one better than not,

1200
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:25,280
Speaker 2: you know, and make make it four out of it

1201
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 2: or something on it. You know, like what would be

1202
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:29,720
Speaker 2: like you're saying a long part four. You know, they

1203
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 2: would have to treat this a three shot hole. So

1204
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:36,559
Speaker 2: you know, if they make that that last good shot

1205
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:38,759
Speaker 2: and they make it four, that's like making a birdie

1206
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 2: and you know at third face because they're already giving

1207
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 2: up a shot with the distance, or if you miss,

1208
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 2: you know, around a green. A good green complex gives

1209
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 2: you options, whether that's you know, short grass to bump

1210
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 2: and run it, flop it, chip it, put it whatever,

1211
01:10:57,040 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 2: or does it give you a counter bank, uh, or

1212
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:04,680
Speaker 2: you know some sort of shelfer ridge to play off of,

1213
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 2: you know, to get the ball close to the hole.

1214
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:09,439
Speaker 2: So that's interesting and I think those things make a

1215
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 2: good golf hole, but they also a good A good

1216
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,559
Speaker 2: golf hole or a great golf holes made better when

1217
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:21,800
Speaker 2: it transitions from previous fall in the next hole and

1218
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 2: all that. You know, in isolation, it loses, it loses

1219
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 2: some of its impact. I think it might make it

1220
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 2: appear better than it is. But you know, if you

1221
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 2: have a great golf hole within a really good routing,

1222
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 2: that's really what you're trying to do.

1223
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:39,479
Speaker 5: That's a that's a great answer.

1224
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:43,800
Speaker 1: It's I love the you know, force somebody to make

1225
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:47,920
Speaker 1: a decision that could have different kind of repercussions later

1226
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 1: in the hole.

1227
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 5: That's so good. So uh.

1228
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:56,639
Speaker 1: Micah also has a question about the Metal Club and

1229
01:11:56,880 --> 01:11:59,759
Speaker 1: he wants to know how how does Metal Club compare

1230
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 1: to other Mackenzie designs and where does it rank within

1231
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:10,000
Speaker 1: Northern California's great golf courses. You might have a little

1232
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:11,680
Speaker 1: bit of biased answer.

1233
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe, yeah, metow is a special place, the first

1234
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:21,720
Speaker 2: course that Mackenzie did in North America really in the

1235
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:26,799
Speaker 2: Western hemisphere, so you know, it does hold a special

1236
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 2: spot in history with regards to that, and it is

1237
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:37,680
Speaker 2: a phenomenal spot in the world. It's surrounded by the

1238
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 2: Marine Municipal Water District, which is protected land and will

1239
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 2: never be developed, so you can't see a domicile from

1240
01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 2: the property and that's never going to change. So it's

1241
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 2: you know, it's a half an hour from the Golden

1242
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:55,880
Speaker 2: Gate Bridge and there's I don't know five million people

1243
01:12:55,920 --> 01:12:59,360
Speaker 2: in the metro area there, but you can't see a house.

1244
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:06,160
Speaker 2: That's pretty cool it is. It's a great walk, it's

1245
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:11,080
Speaker 2: a wonderful golf course to play every day where you

1246
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:13,600
Speaker 2: know the average guy can get around and can you know,

1247
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:17,759
Speaker 2: have good days and bad days, and really good players

1248
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:19,880
Speaker 2: can score well, but they're also going to have their

1249
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 2: their troublesome days too. The green complexes are really phenomenal

1250
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 2: and it's as pure a restoration as as anything out

1251
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 2: there because of the soil structure and how it was

1252
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:37,879
Speaker 2: done in the original construction. When we when we peeled sideback,

1253
01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:41,280
Speaker 2: we could see exactly where the green the greens mix

1254
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:43,960
Speaker 2: was because it had been screened better and there was

1255
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,040
Speaker 2: finer and didn't have these little small stones at the

1256
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:48,679
Speaker 2: regular soil had, so we were able to be really

1257
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:53,920
Speaker 2: really accurate with with all that is an everyday golf course,

1258
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,120
Speaker 2: I think it's you know, it's right up there with everything.

1259
01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 2: It's you know, is it as good as Cyper's Point

1260
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:04,640
Speaker 2: Pebble Beach, San Francisco Golf Club. No, but you know

1261
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 2: I would, I would easily put it in the top ten,

1262
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:13,600
Speaker 2: if not, you know, a little bit higher. Yeah, that

1263
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:16,040
Speaker 2: props the tempo. You know, you might say it's a

1264
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:19,479
Speaker 2: little bit Scheffer has some more dramatic holes to it,

1265
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 2: things like that, but it's got to be really close

1266
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:28,840
Speaker 2: right behind that Cow Club's you know, very good. But

1267
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:31,960
Speaker 2: uh and every day. You know, I'm probably biased. I'd

1268
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 2: rather play the Metal Club every day than than col

1269
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 2: Clubs or Possitive for that matter.

1270
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 1: That's I mean, that's a big thing of it. I

1271
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:43,519
Speaker 1: always think the best way to rate courses isn't like,

1272
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,439
Speaker 1: you know, if you could go play one place one

1273
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:48,639
Speaker 1: day one day, but it's how you how you split

1274
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:52,960
Speaker 1: up ten rounds against two courses, because you know it

1275
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:54,800
Speaker 1: it'd be it's you know, there are a lot of

1276
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:57,080
Speaker 1: great golf courses that you want to play and you

1277
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:59,680
Speaker 1: play once and it's like, Okay, I played it, but

1278
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:01,680
Speaker 1: like the course that makes you want to just keep

1279
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:05,160
Speaker 1: coming back and playing over and over again, or in

1280
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:06,719
Speaker 1: my mind, the really great ones.

1281
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:11,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and then you've got you know, you've got Olympic.

1282
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:13,519
Speaker 2: You got the Lake in the Ocean course there too,

1283
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:16,080
Speaker 2: and you know there's some incredible history there. Also.

1284
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:20,800
Speaker 1: They got some interesting new bunkers.

1285
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:24,559
Speaker 2: That's really demanding. Every day.

1286
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 1: I saw some really, I saw some pictures of the

1287
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 1: bunkers and they just they look like it looks like

1288
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:34,760
Speaker 1: it got just more and more demanding, where you've got

1289
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:38,240
Speaker 1: bunkers that are twice the height of people and they're

1290
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:38,879
Speaker 1: so steep.

1291
01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. I haven't seen them in person yet, so yeah,

1292
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:47,120
Speaker 2: I'll just I'll have to reserve judgment until I do that.

1293
01:15:47,240 --> 01:15:50,360
Speaker 1: I've only seen the photos of people in them, and

1294
01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:53,439
Speaker 1: it's uh. And then I had a member that reached

1295
01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:56,519
Speaker 1: out to me about it, and it doesn't does. He

1296
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:58,720
Speaker 1: didn't sound very happy about it, but.

1297
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:02,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, good fun in the bunker, right.

1298
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a it's a whatever.

1299
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:12,479
Speaker 1: It's hard golf so Buck Walter, and this is a

1300
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:17,719
Speaker 1: great question, Northern Michigan golf underrated or very underrated because

1301
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:22,599
Speaker 1: it and uh, just to tack onto that, what's uh,

1302
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:25,080
Speaker 1: you know, what's kind of one hidden gem up in

1303
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:27,160
Speaker 1: northern Michigan that everybody should try and see.

1304
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:28,200
Speaker 5: That's a public.

1305
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:34,400
Speaker 2: Course, well Belvidere is not completely public. Its semi private,

1306
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:38,840
Speaker 2: but you can get on there and and it's a

1307
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:43,479
Speaker 2: wonderful William Watson designed from the mid twenties and it's

1308
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 2: just super super fun to play, and some great golf

1309
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:52,480
Speaker 2: holes there, old time kind of golf, really good green contours.

1310
01:16:53,880 --> 01:17:01,360
Speaker 2: Bruce Heppner's done some green reclamation there recently, and you know,

1311
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:04,240
Speaker 2: so it's it's going to get even better when they

1312
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:07,400
Speaker 2: do when they do that kind of stuff. So to me,

1313
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:10,439
Speaker 2: that's just a it's a really special place. It's always

1314
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 2: fun to play. They have a hickory tournament there every June,

1315
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:16,320
Speaker 2: which is very well attended, one of the one of

1316
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 2: the more popular hickory events in the country and well

1317
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:20,960
Speaker 2: deserving of that.

1318
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:21,840
Speaker 5: Mm hmm.

1319
01:17:23,120 --> 01:17:26,360
Speaker 1: That's that's the same course that Tom Doak said was

1320
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:30,479
Speaker 1: one of the hidden gems of America. So people got

1321
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:31,200
Speaker 1: to get out there.

1322
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:33,639
Speaker 2: That's right. Got to get there.

1323
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:38,040
Speaker 1: I think I got it. I mean, I'm doing a

1324
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:41,400
Speaker 1: Northern Michigan trip this fall. I'm going to go up there.

1325
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:44,120
Speaker 1: I was supposed to supposed to go this this week,

1326
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:45,320
Speaker 1: but I just I'm too busy.

1327
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 5: Uh.

1328
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:51,479
Speaker 1: This is a great question from Alistair Philip. What's the

1329
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 1: most fulfilling part of being an architect? Uh?

1330
01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:00,559
Speaker 2: Here and somebody say that they they had you know,

1331
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:04,120
Speaker 2: really they had fun playing your playing your golf course,

1332
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:07,400
Speaker 2: or I tried this shot, tried that shot. That's like

1333
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:12,719
Speaker 2: the highest compliment anybody can give me. For me, it's

1334
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:15,760
Speaker 2: you know, I mean just from the personal aspect, it's

1335
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:19,240
Speaker 2: the creation process and trying to put the pieces of

1336
01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:22,559
Speaker 2: the bubble together and then you know, create something that

1337
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:28,920
Speaker 2: people want to come and play and experience and and

1338
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:32,519
Speaker 2: that's that's really fun. And then you know, and the

1339
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:35,519
Speaker 2: post the post part of it is you know, going

1340
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:38,320
Speaker 2: back and playing stuff that you built, whether that was

1341
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:43,040
Speaker 2: last week or you know, last year or fifteen years ago.

1342
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:44,400
Speaker 2: That's kind of fun to do that.

1343
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:45,200
Speaker 4: M h.

1344
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 5: I bet I it's something.

1345
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:50,160
Speaker 1: I played a new course the other day and I

1346
01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:51,960
Speaker 1: I was a little disappointed in it.

1347
01:18:52,200 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 5: And yeah, I felt.

1348
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:56,040
Speaker 1: The full brunt of what you guys probably feel is

1349
01:18:56,080 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 1: that the finality of design, like once it's done, is done.

1350
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:00,840
Speaker 5: For a while.

1351
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1352
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's got to be the tough part.

1353
01:19:06,200 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 2: I don't have, you know, really regrets on stuff that

1354
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:13,559
Speaker 2: I did, because things happened for you know, things happen

1355
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:17,800
Speaker 2: and materialize for a reason during projects. So you know,

1356
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:21,160
Speaker 2: if someone's real critical of a project, they probably don't

1357
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:23,960
Speaker 2: understand you know, this factor or that factor or whatever

1358
01:19:24,120 --> 01:19:27,640
Speaker 2: was involved in that project. And that's you have to

1359
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:30,519
Speaker 2: be there to do that. So make those decisions in

1360
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:34,320
Speaker 2: those and with the information that you have. And there's

1361
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:37,160
Speaker 2: there's not really a lot of stuff that I'm you know,

1362
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:39,760
Speaker 2: would I would want to you know, just run right

1363
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:42,840
Speaker 2: back and change that. Just that just doesn't It doesn't

1364
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:44,960
Speaker 2: happen because I spend a lot of time on sites

1365
01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 2: try and try and do that. Yeah, that's that fact.

1366
01:19:49,479 --> 01:19:50,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that.

1367
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:54,040
Speaker 1: There's always with everything, there's always underlying things that happen.

1368
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 1: You know, almost every situation. Nobody knows the full scope

1369
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:01,599
Speaker 1: of it. All Right, you've been more than generous with

1370
01:20:01,640 --> 01:20:04,440
Speaker 1: your time. Here, let's set we got three quick overrated

1371
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 1: underrated You ready, yep?

1372
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:08,760
Speaker 5: All right, trees.

1373
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 1: Overrated, Crown Greens underrated, I love Crown Greens, and buy holes.

1374
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:25,160
Speaker 2: Overrated overrated.

1375
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:27,320
Speaker 1: I think I would have agreed with all three of

1376
01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:34,400
Speaker 1: those then No, No, I liked them though they're all

1377
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:39,160
Speaker 1: they were all from listeners, So I appreciate you coming on.

1378
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:43,439
Speaker 1: Mike's got a lot of public access courses. If if

1379
01:20:43,439 --> 01:20:45,759
Speaker 1: somebody was going to just you know, strive to play

1380
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:48,800
Speaker 1: one of your golf courses, which is the one you'd

1381
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:50,000
Speaker 1: want them to see.

1382
01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:54,679
Speaker 2: Okap Wickham of course, but that's a that's a pretty journey.

1383
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:59,160
Speaker 2: So the easiest way, you know, particularly for public access

1384
01:20:59,160 --> 01:21:05,560
Speaker 2: golf courses, Grand Rapids, the Mines golf courses really right downtown,

1385
01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 2: you know, inexpensive and a great play. It's hard, it's

1386
01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:15,439
Speaker 2: a difficult, difficult course. Pilgrim's Run is a half an

1387
01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:19,879
Speaker 2: hour north of Grand Rapids and uh it is beautiful

1388
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:22,519
Speaker 2: and really well done. They take care of you. They

1389
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:25,799
Speaker 2: have excellent service there. All the courses do, but they

1390
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:29,240
Speaker 2: especially like you know, roll off the red car people.

1391
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:30,040
Speaker 3: Uh.

1392
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 2: And Diamond Springs which is about a half an hour

1393
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:37,360
Speaker 2: southwest of Grand Rapids is a is a wonderful golf

1394
01:21:37,439 --> 01:21:41,160
Speaker 2: course too. That's that's very inexpensive and a very interesting

1395
01:21:41,240 --> 01:21:45,280
Speaker 2: play from the standpoint that it's it's one cut of

1396
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:51,040
Speaker 2: grass and then just green height and then and then

1397
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:54,479
Speaker 2: outer stem. So yeah, it's a it's very minimal maintenance,

1398
01:21:54,479 --> 01:21:58,600
Speaker 2: but it's it's extraordinarily playable and fun and has a

1399
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:01,639
Speaker 2: has a gorge that goes through it that's really really cool.

1400
01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:04,639
Speaker 1: And you know what those are all on the way

1401
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:06,160
Speaker 1: up to northern Michigan.

1402
01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:10,720
Speaker 2: It's uh, it's it's a very yeah, a very easy thing.

1403
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:13,120
Speaker 2: You could fly into Grand Rapids and stay downtown, go

1404
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:16,160
Speaker 2: to the group pubs, you know, play golf, play golf

1405
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:16,760
Speaker 2: during the day.

1406
01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:19,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're yeah, all affordable too, which is a

1407
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:20,559
Speaker 1: great thing.

1408
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:22,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very affordable.

1409
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:25,799
Speaker 1: So Mike will have to have you on it again.

1410
01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:29,639
Speaker 1: And thanks so much for for the time, and we

1411
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:31,120
Speaker 1: look forward to seeing what's next.

1412
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 2: Thanks thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it

1413
01:22:35,439 --> 01:22:37,479
Speaker 2: and look forward to another time.

1414
01:22:37,720 --> 01:23:01,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. Eight