WEBVTT - Hammersmith Ghost Murder

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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<v Speaker 1>of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly

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<v Speaker 1>Frye and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. Happy Almost Halloween. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>As I mentioned on an earlier episode this month, I

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<v Speaker 1>haven't been as halloweene, I feel like as usual. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know if that's just the time anxiety lurking in

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<v Speaker 1>the air everywhere around, or if I'm just more of

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<v Speaker 1>a skeptic than ever. I don't know, but anyway, this

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<v Speaker 1>one is probably our most Halloween. Today's episode covers a

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<v Speaker 1>case of a lot of people believing there was a

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<v Speaker 1>ghost hanging around and something that happened as a consequence

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<v Speaker 1>of that concern over a ghost that then became a

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<v Speaker 1>huge legal battle. This is a case of mistaken identity

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<v Speaker 1>and I feel like it also uh needs a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit of a heads up that there is some gun violence.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's also legally an interesting story because this is

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<v Speaker 1>a case that brought to light a problem in British

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<v Speaker 1>law that would have ramifications for a long time before

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<v Speaker 1>it was conclusively settled. And we'll get into all of

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<v Speaker 1>that today as we talk about the Hammersmith Ghost murder.

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<v Speaker 1>So in late eighteen oh three, frightening accounts started circulating

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<v Speaker 1>in Hammersmith, England today that is a borough of London.

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<v Speaker 1>The stories were all really similar, and they were told

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<v Speaker 1>by a variety of local residents who all appear to

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<v Speaker 1>have witnessed the same thing. That was a tall figure

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<v Speaker 1>draped in white, described as an apparition. This apparition was

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<v Speaker 1>seen in town, often in the churchyard, but occasionally moving

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<v Speaker 1>outside of that space. Some people claimed to have been

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<v Speaker 1>attacked by this phantom. As these accounts became more and

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<v Speaker 1>more common, they also became more and more detailed. The

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<v Speaker 1>ghost was said to appear right after the town clock

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<v Speaker 1>struck one am, although it could also pop out at

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<v Speaker 1>other times. It was associated with Black Lion Lane, specifically

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<v Speaker 1>which was at the edge of the neighborhood, near undeveloped fields,

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<v Speaker 1>and soon the ghost even had an identity and was

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<v Speaker 1>believed to be the spirit of a man who had

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<v Speaker 1>died by suicide in eighteen oh two, allegedly by slitting

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<v Speaker 1>his own throat. Some accounts even stated that this apparition

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<v Speaker 1>occasionally appeared with horns. Others said that he had glass eyes,

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<v Speaker 1>and sometimes instead of all white, he was said to

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<v Speaker 1>wear the skin of a beast in an account that

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<v Speaker 1>was written mere months after the events were talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>In this episode, which was part of the series of

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<v Speaker 1>books cataloging the interesting happenings of the time called Kirby's

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<v Speaker 1>Wonderful and Scientific Museum, there was even the assertion that

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<v Speaker 1>locals believed there might be multiple ghosts. These accounts persisted

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<v Speaker 1>to the point that the whole area started to be

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<v Speaker 1>genuinely concerned. In one instance, a mister Russell, who was

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<v Speaker 1>the driver of an eight horse carriage, was so frightened

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<v Speaker 1>by the ghosts that he abandoned his team and a

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<v Speaker 1>carriage filled with sixteen people and just ran away. Those

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<v Speaker 1>passengers were just left hanging with the ghost. I guess

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<v Speaker 1>as the ghost things got worse as rumors spread that

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<v Speaker 1>people were even dying of shock upon seeing or interacting

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<v Speaker 1>with the ghost. In one such case, a pregnant woman

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<v Speaker 1>was described as having fainted when she saw the ghost

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<v Speaker 1>after passing near the graveyard at Saint Paul's, and then

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<v Speaker 1>it is said to have reached out and put its

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<v Speaker 1>arms around her. She was found unconscious on the ground

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<v Speaker 1>and taken to a home of a nearby resident. She

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<v Speaker 1>reportedly died there a couple of days later, although there

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<v Speaker 1>isn't any real substantiation for this story. For example, nothing

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<v Speaker 1>ever mentions her name. Because of all this, though there

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<v Speaker 1>were very real fears about being on the street, people

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<v Speaker 1>started staying inside after sundown. In an effort to put

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<v Speaker 1>an end to the perceived threat that was holding the

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<v Speaker 1>town in a state of constant fear. Armed patrols were

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<v Speaker 1>made up of citizens and they started mounting these patrols

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<v Speaker 1>at night. This was more than twenty five years before

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<v Speaker 1>London got its official police force, the Metropolitan Police, so

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<v Speaker 1>this was not an unusual means of dealing with a

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<v Speaker 1>problem involving public safety. Some of the men in these

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<v Speaker 1>patrols did not think there was a ghost. They suspected

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<v Speaker 1>a very real person was just scaring the area's residence

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<v Speaker 1>and they wanted it to stop. On one patrol, a

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<v Speaker 1>ghost was chased, but this supposed ghost was able to

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<v Speaker 1>elude his pursuers, he said, who have removed the sheet

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<v Speaker 1>as he ran, but then could not be identified. In

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of cases, it seemed that the purported ghost

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<v Speaker 1>knew which roots the patrols would take and then stuck

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<v Speaker 1>to alternate streets. And paths. Yeah, this is often described

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<v Speaker 1>as being a neighborhood that had a lot of alley's sideways,

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<v Speaker 1>et cetera. So it was kind of amaze and it

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<v Speaker 1>was easy for someone to evade capture. On January third

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<v Speaker 1>of eighteen oh four, one of these patrols was out

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<v Speaker 1>and about, but in this case it was not a group.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a man on his own named Francis Smith.

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<v Speaker 1>Smith was an excise officer who was twenty nine years old,

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<v Speaker 1>and he and another man, William Girdler, were both out patrolling,

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<v Speaker 1>but they had decided to separate to cover more ground.

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<v Speaker 1>The two men had worked out a call and response

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<v Speaker 1>set of phrases so that if one approached the other,

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<v Speaker 1>they would know that it was the person that was

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<v Speaker 1>also on patrol and nothing sinister. So one of them

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<v Speaker 1>would open with who goes there or perhaps a similar

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<v Speaker 1>sentiment like who is it? The other would respond with

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<v Speaker 1>a friend, and then the final confirmation was advance friend.

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<v Speaker 1>So this seems like a great code, but it is

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<v Speaker 1>all based on the presumption that no one else would

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<v Speaker 1>be out in the streets except the two of them

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<v Speaker 1>and perhaps something or someone sinister. After the two men

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<v Speaker 1>parted ways, to patrol, Francis Smith spotted a figure in

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<v Speaker 1>white near Black Lion Lane. Hoping to end this terror

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<v Speaker 1>in the community, Smith raised the weapon he was carrying

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<v Speaker 1>and fired, and the figure fell to the ground. When

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<v Speaker 1>Smith approached his target, he was horrified to see that

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<v Speaker 1>it was a man wearing white work clothes that were

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<v Speaker 1>white linen trousers with a white waistcoat, apron, and even shoes.

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<v Speaker 1>The victim was twenty two year old Thomas Millwood that

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<v Speaker 1>was a bricklayer who was walking home from visiting his

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<v Speaker 1>father after work when Francis Smith mistook him for the

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<v Speaker 1>ghost or a prankster pretending to be a ghost. Allegedly,

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<v Speaker 1>this was not the first time someone had thought he

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<v Speaker 1>was the ghost, but previous incidents had ended without any

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<v Speaker 1>kind of serious repercussions. After Smith realized what he had done,

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<v Speaker 1>he went looking immediately for help, and he ran into

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<v Speaker 1>two men named Stowe and Locke, and he told them

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<v Speaker 1>that he had shot a man that he had believed

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<v Speaker 1>to be a ghost. Initially, according to a statement given

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<v Speaker 1>by Stowe to the paper, Smith didn't really seem to

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<v Speaker 1>realize that he would be in trouble legally, or that

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<v Speaker 1>he had done anything wrong. Smith then told them that

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<v Speaker 1>he had spoken to that person twice and received no

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<v Speaker 1>answer before he fired. Stowe and Locke returned with Smith

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<v Speaker 1>to the scene of the shooting to see that Millwood

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<v Speaker 1>was indeed dead. Smith also put out word at a

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<v Speaker 1>local pub that he needed to speak with William Girdler,

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<v Speaker 1>the man he had been out on watch sort of with,

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<v Speaker 1>but not really, and then when Girdler got the message,

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<v Speaker 1>he too went to the scene of the shooting. The

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<v Speaker 1>coroner's examination indicated that Thomas Millwood died from a single

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<v Speaker 1>gunshot to the head. The bullet had entered through his

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<v Speaker 1>mouth at the left jaw, passed through his spine to

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<v Speaker 1>the exit at the back of his neck. According to

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<v Speaker 1>the coroner's report, his face was blackened from the flash

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<v Speaker 1>of gunpowder, and the death was recorded as a quote

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<v Speaker 1>rash act of wilful murder. Locke and Stowe had advised

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<v Speaker 1>Smith to go home, although he had, according to their

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<v Speaker 1>later testimony, asked them to take him into custody themselves,

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<v Speaker 1>but they wanted to wait and see how things played out,

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<v Speaker 1>and when the police went to Smith's home once the

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<v Speaker 1>situation had escalated with that coroner's determination, Smith went with

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<v Speaker 1>the authorities readily. We'll talk about how his legal case

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<v Speaker 1>played out after we pause for a sponsor break. A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people had come to Francis Smith's defense in

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<v Speaker 1>the course of the coroner's inquiry. He was not disputing

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that he had fired the shot that killed Millwood.

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<v Speaker 1>He acknowledged that he was panicked and agitated when he

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<v Speaker 1>saw the white figure. But Smith was also known to

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<v Speaker 1>everyone as a very gentle and kind man. No one

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<v Speaker 1>believed he went out on patrol the night of the

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<v Speaker 1>shooting with anything but good intentions. Additionally, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people willingly made statements about the low visibility in the

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<v Speaker 1>town the night of the shooting, noting specifically that if

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<v Speaker 1>you stood on one side of Black Lion Lane, the

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<v Speaker 1>low lighting, mist and hedges planted along it made it

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<v Speaker 1>difficult to see across the lane in the dark. Black

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<v Speaker 1>Lion was known to be dim and shadowy because there

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<v Speaker 1>were hedges on both sides of the lane, so seeing

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<v Speaker 1>a white form, it actually would have been pretty difficult

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<v Speaker 1>to make it out as a corporeal human person. This

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<v Speaker 1>is something paranormal. Based on the coroner's findings, Francis Smith

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<v Speaker 1>was arrested He pleaded not guilty, with the defense that

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<v Speaker 1>his actions were accidental based on a case of mistaken identity.

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<v Speaker 1>He was tried at the Old Bailey on January thirteenth,

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<v Speaker 1>ten days after the incident, on the charge of wilful murder.

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<v Speaker 1>The case that played out would impact British law and

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<v Speaker 1>change the way people talked about murder charges. Francis Smith

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<v Speaker 1>was adamant during the trial that his actions were born

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<v Speaker 1>out of a very real fear, and that he had

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<v Speaker 1>believed he came into the presence of the ghosts that

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<v Speaker 1>had been rumored to be terrorizing the neighborhood. He had

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<v Speaker 1>initially told the court that he wished for his counsel

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<v Speaker 1>to speak for him, but he was told that in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of answering the charges, he had to speak for himself,

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<v Speaker 1>and that his counsel was there solely to question the witnesses.

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<v Speaker 1>So Smith stated in his first remarks to the court quote,

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<v Speaker 1>I can only declare that I went out with a

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<v Speaker 1>perfectly good intention. After calling to the deceased twice and

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<v Speaker 1>receiving no answer, I became so agitated that I did

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<v Speaker 1>not know what I was about. But I solemnly declare

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<v Speaker 1>that I am innocent of any malicious intention against any

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<v Speaker 1>person whatever. There are some inconsistencies in the various accounts

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<v Speaker 1>as to whether Smith believed he was shooting at a

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<v Speaker 1>specter or whether he believed he was shooting at someone

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<v Speaker 1>pretending to be a ghost to menace the neighborhood. Some,

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<v Speaker 1>including the testimony of John Locke, make it sound as

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<v Speaker 1>though Smith knew it was a person. Locke specifically said

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<v Speaker 1>during the trial testimony quote he informed me he had

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<v Speaker 1>shot a man who he believed to be the pretended

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<v Speaker 1>ghost of Hammersmith. But that leaves a little room for interpretation,

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<v Speaker 1>as Smith was relaying the news of the shooting to

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<v Speaker 1>Locke after he himself had discovered that he had shot

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<v Speaker 1>a man. As we'll see in a moment, the defense

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<v Speaker 1>made the case that there was a very real sense

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<v Speaker 1>of a ghost threat in the neighborhood. The prosecution's case

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<v Speaker 1>made the entire ghost story out to be just utterly ridiculous.

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<v Speaker 1>Even news accounts that ran ahead of the trial had

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<v Speaker 1>dismissed the apparition rumors. It's really silly. The Morning Chronicle

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<v Speaker 1>ran a piece about the shooting on January sixth, so

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<v Speaker 1>that's three days after it, which read quote the neighborhood

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<v Speaker 1>of Hammersmith has for some time been alarmed by a

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<v Speaker 1>ridiculous rumor of a ghost, which is said to have

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<v Speaker 1>paid its nocturnal visits to the fields adjacent to Black

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<v Speaker 1>Lion Lane. That same article quoted Thomas Millwood's sister Anne

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<v Speaker 1>Millwood as describing a snippet of speech that she heard

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<v Speaker 1>when she went to the door to watch her brother

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<v Speaker 1>as he walked away from the house. She heard a

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<v Speaker 1>voice say quote, damn you, who are you? And then

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<v Speaker 1>stand else I'll shoot you right before she heard the

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<v Speaker 1>gun being fired, and worried about her brother, but unable

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<v Speaker 1>to see him again because these gloomy and dim lighting situation,

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<v Speaker 1>call her brother's name and got no answer, And at

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<v Speaker 1>that point she alerted her father and her mother and

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<v Speaker 1>a lodger who lived with the Millwood family about it,

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<v Speaker 1>but they dismissed what she had heard as street noise,

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<v Speaker 1>and still very worried about her brother Thomas, went out

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<v Speaker 1>by herself and she found him dead in the lane.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of witnesses came forward to vouch for Smith's

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<v Speaker 1>good character. Even Millwood's mother in law, missus Fulbrook, was

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<v Speaker 1>a witness for the defense. She told the court quote,

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<v Speaker 1>on Saturday evening, he and I were at home, for

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<v Speaker 1>he lived with me. He said he had frightened two

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<v Speaker 1>ladies and a gentleman who were coming along the terrace,

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<v Speaker 1>and a carriage. For that, the man said he dared

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<v Speaker 1>to say, there goes the ghost. That he said he

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<v Speaker 1>was no more a ghost than he was, and asked him,

0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.520
<v Speaker 1>using a bad word, did he want a punch of

0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.199
<v Speaker 1>the head. I begged of him to change his dress.

0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.160
<v Speaker 1>Thomas says, I, as there is a piece of work

0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.280
<v Speaker 1>about the ghost, and your clothes look white, pray do

0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.079
<v Speaker 1>put on your greatcoat that you may not run any danger.

0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.720
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what answer he made. He said he

0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:10.880
<v Speaker 1>wished the ghost was catched, or something of that sort.

0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.960
<v Speaker 1>One thing the defense counsel asked witnesses was about the

0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.520
<v Speaker 1>many groups of men who had gone on patrol. According

0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.400
<v Speaker 1>to court proceedings, They asked John Locke, quote, you know,

0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.920
<v Speaker 1>I believe, however unfortunate, it has turned out that almost

0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.600
<v Speaker 1>all the young men had gone out. When Locke answered

0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.960
<v Speaker 1>in the affirmative, the follow up question was quote, which

0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.880
<v Speaker 1>was publicly known and talked about. So it seems this

0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.920
<v Speaker 1>line of questioning was to establish before the court that

0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.360
<v Speaker 1>everyone knew that armed men were prowling the streets looking

0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.800
<v Speaker 1>for a specter, so in disregarding that danger, Thomas had

0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:51.320
<v Speaker 1>somehow been responsible for what had happened to him. Then

0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:55.600
<v Speaker 1>the defense introduced the idea that there was potentially a

0:14:55.680 --> 0:15:00.120
<v Speaker 1>legitimate ghost haunting Hammersmith. They called a man named Tom

0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:04.000
<v Speaker 1>Groom who worked for a brewer named Burgess, and Grun

0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.880
<v Speaker 1>stated that while he and a colleague were walking through

0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:11.760
<v Speaker 1>the churchyard, he very clearly felt hands around his throat,

0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.240
<v Speaker 1>though neither of the men could see anything. This was

0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 1>laying the groundwork that there were enough credible instances of

0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.640
<v Speaker 1>people saying they had interactions with the Hammersmith ghost that

0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.480
<v Speaker 1>it was reasonable for Francis Smith to believe that was

0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:30.480
<v Speaker 1>what was before him when he pulled the trigger. The

0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.880
<v Speaker 1>Lord Chief Baron MacDonald gave orders to the jury that

0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.480
<v Speaker 1>they must decide if Smith was guilty or not. Those

0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:41.280
<v Speaker 1>orders included the instructions quote it would be impossible to

0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:45.520
<v Speaker 1>calculate the dangerous consequences which would ensue if men were

0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.760
<v Speaker 1>permitted to take upon themselves the right of shooting others

0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:52.200
<v Speaker 1>for certain crimes. If a man goes out with the

0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.480
<v Speaker 1>intention of shooting robbers and kills a person who is

0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:59.920
<v Speaker 1>offering him no violence. He is guilty of murder. However,

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.040
<v Speaker 1>are disgusted the jury might feel in their own minds

0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:07.160
<v Speaker 1>with the abominable person guilty of the misdemeanor of terrifying

0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:11.040
<v Speaker 1>the neighborhood. Still, the prisoner had no right to construe

0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.680
<v Speaker 1>such misdemeanor into a capital offense, or to conclude that

0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:18.160
<v Speaker 1>a man dressed in white was a ghost. In this case,

0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.280
<v Speaker 1>there was a deliberate carrying of a loaded gun, which

0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.760
<v Speaker 1>the prisoner concluded he was entitled to fire, but which

0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.480
<v Speaker 1>he really was not, and he did fire it with

0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:31.320
<v Speaker 1>a rashness, which the law does not excuse. In all

0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.440
<v Speaker 1>the circumstances of the case, no man is allowed to

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.720
<v Speaker 1>kill another rashly. The judge also told the jury that

0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.320
<v Speaker 1>they could not take into account whether Francis Smith was

0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.560
<v Speaker 1>a good man or not, that they just had to

0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.280
<v Speaker 1>consider the facts of the case, and the facts of

0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:52.840
<v Speaker 1>the case were obvious. Francis Smith admitted to shooting Millwood,

0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.960
<v Speaker 1>but because of the odd circumstances, it seems the jury

0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.280
<v Speaker 1>tried to mitigate the outcome of the trial by fining

0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.440
<v Speaker 1>Smith guilty not of murder but of manslaughter that would

0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:09.439
<v Speaker 1>automatically carry a much lighter sentence. The problem, though, was

0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.399
<v Speaker 1>that MacDonald and the two other judges in the case,

0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.520
<v Speaker 1>Justices Rooke and Lawrence, stated they could not accept that

0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.119
<v Speaker 1>outcome because Smith had not been on trial for manslaughter.

0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:23.359
<v Speaker 1>This was just a matter of following the letter of

0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.760
<v Speaker 1>the law. So the jury was instructed to once again

0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:30.760
<v Speaker 1>deliberate with the option of delivering a guilty verdict or

0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:35.720
<v Speaker 1>an acquittal for murder based on the evidence of the case.

0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.600
<v Speaker 1>The judges also reminded the jurors that Thomas Millwood had

0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.520
<v Speaker 1>not done anything on the night of the shooting other

0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:47.120
<v Speaker 1>than walk home wearing white. He had not menaced anyone,

0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:50.800
<v Speaker 1>he had not tried to run. But they also noted

0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.760
<v Speaker 1>that even if he had, even if he had been

0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.480
<v Speaker 1>a prankster trying to scare people by feigning to be

0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:00.680
<v Speaker 1>a ghost, that could only be considered a nuisance, which

0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:05.320
<v Speaker 1>at most could be cited as a misdemeanor. After the

0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.359
<v Speaker 1>second round of deliberation, which took an hour, the jury

0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.800
<v Speaker 1>came back with the verdict that Francis Smith was guilty

0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.600
<v Speaker 1>of murder. This automatically resulted in a death sentence, and

0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.439
<v Speaker 1>the bench ruled that Smith was to be hanged and

0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.639
<v Speaker 1>that his body would be donated to a medical college.

0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.800
<v Speaker 1>Knowing this was bound to stoke a controversy, the Lord

0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:29.480
<v Speaker 1>Chief Baron Archibald MacDonald promised to bring the matter before

0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:33.280
<v Speaker 1>King George the Third. This was a scenario where the

0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.679
<v Speaker 1>facts of the case were covered in the press in

0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.840
<v Speaker 1>detail and everyone knew what had happened. It was perceived

0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:44.240
<v Speaker 1>by almost everyone as an accidental shooting, but also with

0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.960
<v Speaker 1>the understanding that in legal terms there wasn't much leeway

0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:52.520
<v Speaker 1>to find Smith anything other than guilty. Still, he did

0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.760
<v Speaker 1>have a lot of public support, and the King also

0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.560
<v Speaker 1>recognized the unusual circumstances in the way that the law

0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.160
<v Speaker 1>did not not really allow for any kind of nuance

0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.600
<v Speaker 1>in a case like this, so the monarch actually issued

0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:09.800
<v Speaker 1>a pardon three weeks after the initial guilty verdict. The King,

0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.800
<v Speaker 1>unlike the jury, did have the power to change the

0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.080
<v Speaker 1>outcome of the case and issue a guilty verdict instead

0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.520
<v Speaker 1>for the lesser charge of manslaughter, and to dictate the

0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.480
<v Speaker 1>terms of the sentencing. Francis Smith was to be imprisoned

0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.359
<v Speaker 1>for one year to perform hard labor. The proceedings of

0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 1>the Old Bailey list a remission of imprisonment for Francis

0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.200
<v Speaker 1>on July twelfth of eighteen oh four, so his sentence

0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:37.720
<v Speaker 1>was reduced at that point for good behavior. But after

0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.639
<v Speaker 1>that he sort of vanishes from the historical record. But

0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:45.399
<v Speaker 1>what about the ghost? Thomas Millwood was a plasterer or

0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:49.399
<v Speaker 1>a bricklayer, Various different accounts call him, each of those.

0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.199
<v Speaker 1>He happened to be wearing white work clothes. He was

0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.399
<v Speaker 1>not a spirit lurking in the graveyard waiting to scare people.

0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:02.119
<v Speaker 1>So what had all those ghost sightings about. Well, initially

0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.560
<v Speaker 1>after the shooting, sightings of the ghost did stop, and

0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.840
<v Speaker 1>then the day after Francis smith sentencing, the Hammersmith Ghost

0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.600
<v Speaker 1>stepped forward to confess. And we'll talk about that right

0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.320
<v Speaker 1>after we hear from the sponsors that keep the show going.

0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:30.359
<v Speaker 1>On January fourteenth, a shoemaker named John Graham reached out

0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:33.399
<v Speaker 1>to authorities to state that he had been putting a

0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.000
<v Speaker 1>sheet over his head and then walking around Hammersmith scaring

0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:41.439
<v Speaker 1>people as a prank. This had initially started just as

0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:45.399
<v Speaker 1>a prank against his employees. The men had been telling

0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.560
<v Speaker 1>Graham's kids ghost stories and it really frightened the children.

0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.320
<v Speaker 1>So Graham thought he would frighten the grown men to retaliate,

0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.439
<v Speaker 1>and then it turned out he liked doing it. It

0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.160
<v Speaker 1>was fun to scare people, so he started going out

0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:03.360
<v Speaker 1>into the graveyard in his ghost disguise. Although Graham had

0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:07.200
<v Speaker 1>come forward, a lot of people in Hammersmith were not convinced.

0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:11.280
<v Speaker 1>They continued to believe that something spectral was lurking in

0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.880
<v Speaker 1>their neighborhood, waiting to reach out and get them if

0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.480
<v Speaker 1>they found themselves in close proximity to it, and there

0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.880
<v Speaker 1>were reports that the ghost was cited many times after

0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:25.960
<v Speaker 1>the trial concluded, and John Graham claimed to have been

0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:30.200
<v Speaker 1>the ghost. This has given rise to theories that there

0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:33.520
<v Speaker 1>may have been copycats wanting to just keep the prank going,

0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.680
<v Speaker 1>but finding any hard evidence about that is just about

0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:40.840
<v Speaker 1>impossible given that nobody else ever came forward, So it

0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.720
<v Speaker 1>could just as easily be that people thought they saw

0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:46.480
<v Speaker 1>the ghost even if no one was keeping up the prank.

0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.120
<v Speaker 1>And some of these sightings, which continued for several decades,

0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.919
<v Speaker 1>really upped the ante on the odd details, including some

0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:58.440
<v Speaker 1>accounts that this ghost was seen breathing fire. I love

0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:00.440
<v Speaker 1>that he becomes much more demo on it be as

0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:02.720
<v Speaker 1>time goes on. Now he's got horns, Now he's got

0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:06.960
<v Speaker 1>glass eyes, Now he breathes fire. The idea that Francis

0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:11.040
<v Speaker 1>Smith's murder trial introduced that the British legal system needed

0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.560
<v Speaker 1>to be able to handle cases where a person truly

0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:16.800
<v Speaker 1>believed they were acting in self defense or for the

0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:20.840
<v Speaker 1>good of someone else against something supernatural, was actually debated

0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:23.719
<v Speaker 1>for the next one hundred and eighty years, and it

0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:27.000
<v Speaker 1>wasn't until another case in nineteen eighty three that there

0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.600
<v Speaker 1>was a definitive ruling on such cases, though it did

0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:33.680
<v Speaker 1>not involve the supernatural, but a case of misunderstanding the situation,

0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:38.119
<v Speaker 1>and that was Regina versus Gladstone Williams. So Regina is

0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:41.280
<v Speaker 1>the word often used in British cases to indicate that

0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.399
<v Speaker 1>the case is brought by the Crown. I think the

0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Brits might pronounce it regina. I think so too, but

0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't love that now, sorry to all of my

0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.239
<v Speaker 1>British friends. It sounds so much like other things to

0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:57.040
<v Speaker 1>me that I cannot do it in my soul. This

0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:00.320
<v Speaker 1>appellate case is written up with the following information as

0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:05.120
<v Speaker 1>its introductory explainer quote On ninth March this year, Gladstone

0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:08.960
<v Speaker 1>Williams appeared in the Inner London Crown Court charged with

0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:13.840
<v Speaker 1>assault occasioning actual bodily harm. After a trial, he was

0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:17.600
<v Speaker 1>convicted and was given a conditional discharge for twelve months,

0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:21.840
<v Speaker 1>together with certain financial penalties. He now appeals on a

0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:25.600
<v Speaker 1>point of law against his conviction. The facts were somewhat

0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:29.520
<v Speaker 1>unusual and were as follows. On the day in question,

0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:33.959
<v Speaker 1>the alleged victim, a man called Mason, saw a black

0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:38.000
<v Speaker 1>youth seizing the handbag belonging to a woman who was shopping.

0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:42.040
<v Speaker 1>He caught up with the youth and held him, he said,

0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:45.280
<v Speaker 1>with a view to taking him to a nearby police station,

0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:50.119
<v Speaker 1>but the youth broke free from his grip. Mason caught

0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:52.879
<v Speaker 1>the youth again and knocked him to the ground, and

0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:55.600
<v Speaker 1>he then twisted one of the youth's arms behind his

0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:59.080
<v Speaker 1>back in order to immobilize him and to enable him.

0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:01.679
<v Speaker 1>He said, what once again to take the youth to

0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:06.239
<v Speaker 1>a police station. The youth was struggling and calling for

0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:09.439
<v Speaker 1>help at this time, and no one disputed the fact.

0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:13.920
<v Speaker 1>Upon the scene. Then came the appellant, who had only

0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:18.280
<v Speaker 1>seen the latter stages of this incident. According to Mason,

0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:20.879
<v Speaker 1>he told the appellant first of all that he was

0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:23.840
<v Speaker 1>arresting the youth for mugging the lady, and secondly that

0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:28.720
<v Speaker 1>he Mason was a police officer. That was not true.

0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:32.359
<v Speaker 1>He was asked for his warrant card, which obviously was

0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:36.520
<v Speaker 1>not forthcoming, and thereupon something of a struggle ensued between

0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:39.680
<v Speaker 1>Mason on the one hand, and the appellant and others

0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:43.240
<v Speaker 1>on the other hand. In the course of these events,

0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:47.880
<v Speaker 1>Mason sustained injuries to his face, loosened teeth, and bleeding gums.

0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:53.280
<v Speaker 1>The appellant put forward the following version of events. He

0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:56.800
<v Speaker 1>said he was returning from work by bus when he

0:24:56.840 --> 0:25:00.520
<v Speaker 1>saw Mason dragging the youth along and striking him again

0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:03.439
<v Speaker 1>and again. He was so concerned about the matter that

0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:06.000
<v Speaker 1>he rapidly got off the bus and made his way

0:25:06.040 --> 0:25:08.160
<v Speaker 1>to the scene and asked Mason what on earth he

0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:11.960
<v Speaker 1>was doing. In short, he said that he punched Mason

0:25:12.160 --> 0:25:14.480
<v Speaker 1>because he thought if he did so, he would save

0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:19.000
<v Speaker 1>the youth from further beating and what he described as torture.

0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:22.640
<v Speaker 1>So the cliff notes, a person claiming to be an

0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:26.320
<v Speaker 1>off duty policeman saw a kid stealing a woman's bag

0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:29.560
<v Speaker 1>and chased and tackled him, and a passerby thought that

0:25:29.600 --> 0:25:32.000
<v Speaker 1>the kid was being attacked by this person who said

0:25:32.040 --> 0:25:36.119
<v Speaker 1>they were an off duty policeman and interceded, But that passerby,

0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:40.280
<v Speaker 1>Gladstone Williams, thought he was protecting an innocent person because

0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:42.280
<v Speaker 1>he did not have all the facts of the situation

0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:46.760
<v Speaker 1>when he acted, and there was that confusion where it

0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:48.760
<v Speaker 1>was claimed that he was a policeman and he wasn't.

0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:52.400
<v Speaker 1>And Williams, the one who interceded, thinking he was saving

0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:57.280
<v Speaker 1>this kid, was charged and convicted of assault, but Williams

0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:01.879
<v Speaker 1>appeal led to a ruling that established precedent regarding charges

0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:05.760
<v Speaker 1>where people use force but can establish that their intent

0:26:05.800 --> 0:26:10.840
<v Speaker 1>and understanding of the situation was inherently lawful. That ruling reads,

0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:13.520
<v Speaker 1>in part quote, in a case of self defense or

0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:17.160
<v Speaker 1>the prevention of crime is concerned, if the jury came

0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:20.840
<v Speaker 1>to the conclusion that the defendant believed or may have believed,

0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:23.399
<v Speaker 1>that he was being attacked or that a crime was

0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:27.120
<v Speaker 1>being committed, and that force was necessary to protect himself

0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:30.359
<v Speaker 1>or to prevent the crime, then the prosecution have not

0:26:30.440 --> 0:26:36.480
<v Speaker 1>proved their case. If, however, the defendant's alleged belief was mistaken,

0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:40.760
<v Speaker 1>and if the mistake was an unreasonable one, that may

0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:43.560
<v Speaker 1>be a peaceful reason for coming to the conclusion that

0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:47.200
<v Speaker 1>the belief was not honestly held and should be rejected.

0:26:48.240 --> 0:26:50.960
<v Speaker 1>Even if the jury come to the conclusion that the

0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:55.800
<v Speaker 1>mistake was an unreasonable one, if the defendant may genuinely

0:26:55.880 --> 0:26:59.879
<v Speaker 1>have been laboring under it, he is entitled to rely

0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:05.000
<v Speaker 1>upon it. I'm so sorry all of that legal discussion

0:27:05.119 --> 0:27:08.240
<v Speaker 1>landed in your basket, but also legal discussion that I

0:27:08.320 --> 0:27:14.760
<v Speaker 1>hate for the record, Like, what do you mean if

0:27:14.800 --> 0:27:17.800
<v Speaker 1>I am understanding this correctly? This is the kind of

0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:21.639
<v Speaker 1>argument that's used to justify people being like I shot

0:27:21.720 --> 0:27:24.159
<v Speaker 1>that guy. Oh, yes, one hundred percent. We should talk

0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:27.080
<v Speaker 1>about this on behind the scenes. Yeah but yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:29.639
<v Speaker 1>we should talk about it behind the scenes. Although the

0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:33.280
<v Speaker 1>law may have become a settled matter according to some locals,

0:27:33.359 --> 0:27:37.560
<v Speaker 1>Thomas Millwood has not, because now there are reports that

0:27:37.560 --> 0:27:40.639
<v Speaker 1>Milwood has, in his ghost form, been haunting the Black

0:27:40.680 --> 0:27:44.399
<v Speaker 1>Lion Pub on the street where he died. The pub

0:27:44.440 --> 0:27:47.680
<v Speaker 1>has been there since the latter half of the seventeen hundreds,

0:27:47.680 --> 0:27:51.720
<v Speaker 1>although specific dates on its origin do seem to vary.

0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:54.000
<v Speaker 1>The pub would have been one of the primary public

0:27:54.000 --> 0:27:57.919
<v Speaker 1>places where the Hammersmith Ghost would have been discussed and debated,

0:27:58.480 --> 0:28:02.879
<v Speaker 1>and Millwood's body was taken there for examination by mister Flowers,

0:28:03.160 --> 0:28:06.000
<v Speaker 1>who worked for the Coroner's office after he had been shot.

0:28:06.960 --> 0:28:09.399
<v Speaker 1>There have been employees of the pub who have claimed

0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:12.880
<v Speaker 1>over the years that they see Thomas frequently. In two

0:28:12.880 --> 0:28:15.560
<v Speaker 1>thousand and four, the Ghost Club, which was founded by

0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:18.479
<v Speaker 1>Charles Dickens in eighteen sixty two, had a meet up

0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:20.720
<v Speaker 1>at the Black Lion Pub to mark the two hundred

0:28:20.760 --> 0:28:24.480
<v Speaker 1>year anniversary of the shooting. There is a plaque outside

0:28:24.520 --> 0:28:27.159
<v Speaker 1>the pub that mentions the ghost. It reads quote the

0:28:27.200 --> 0:28:30.600
<v Speaker 1>Black Lion, formerly known as the Black Lion spelled with

0:28:30.600 --> 0:28:33.720
<v Speaker 1>a y, A public house has stood on the site

0:28:33.720 --> 0:28:37.520
<v Speaker 1>for well over two hundred years. Originally a piggery, it

0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:40.600
<v Speaker 1>is reputed that the pig farmer started brewing beer for

0:28:40.680 --> 0:28:43.520
<v Speaker 1>himself and his friends. This proved so popular that it

0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:48.360
<v Speaker 1>overtook his agricultural interests as his main occupation. The Hammersmith

0:28:48.400 --> 0:28:52.200
<v Speaker 1>Ghost started haunting Black Lion Lane in Saint Paul's Churchyard

0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:56.120
<v Speaker 1>in eighteen oh four. One night in Excise, Officer Francis

0:28:56.160 --> 0:29:00.520
<v Speaker 1>Smith filled his blunderbuss with shot and him self with

0:29:00.800 --> 0:29:05.560
<v Speaker 1>ale before killing an unfortunate white clothes bricklayer, Thomas Millwood,

0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:09.200
<v Speaker 1>whom he had mistaken for the ghost. It was at

0:29:09.200 --> 0:29:11.680
<v Speaker 1>the Black Lion that the body was taken and an

0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:16.200
<v Speaker 1>inquest held later. So, in a bit of historical irony,

0:29:16.240 --> 0:29:19.280
<v Speaker 1>a man mistaken for a ghost and shot because of

0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:22.720
<v Speaker 1>that mistake has now become a ghost in his own right,

0:29:22.840 --> 0:29:28.520
<v Speaker 1>at least according to local lore. And that is the

0:29:28.600 --> 0:29:33.680
<v Speaker 1>last of our halloweeners for the year. Do you have

0:29:33.760 --> 0:29:37.560
<v Speaker 1>some email that may or may not be Halloween related,

0:29:38.120 --> 0:29:42.360
<v Speaker 1>has nothing to do with Halloween? Oh well, it's a suggestion,

0:29:42.520 --> 0:29:45.640
<v Speaker 1>but also one that I have had a lot of

0:29:45.680 --> 0:29:50.880
<v Speaker 1>people ask me about this lately. Even it came into email,

0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:54.600
<v Speaker 1>and I have been doing a number of book signings

0:29:54.640 --> 0:29:57.920
<v Speaker 1>at conventions lately for Killer Cocktails, and several people have

0:29:58.000 --> 0:29:59.480
<v Speaker 1>asked me if we were going to do this topic.

0:29:59.520 --> 0:30:02.200
<v Speaker 1>So I feel I should just tell people wear them

0:30:02.240 --> 0:30:05.920
<v Speaker 1>at on it. This is from our listener Samantha, who writes, Hello,

0:30:05.960 --> 0:30:08.680
<v Speaker 1>all have loved your podcast for many years and was

0:30:08.720 --> 0:30:11.400
<v Speaker 1>excited and surprised to look through the catalog and not

0:30:11.480 --> 0:30:14.400
<v Speaker 1>find anything on this particular subject. Perhaps I missed it

0:30:14.480 --> 0:30:17.160
<v Speaker 1>but maybe it would be a fun upcoming episode. My

0:30:17.280 --> 0:30:19.920
<v Speaker 1>six year old daughter asked to understand the history of

0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:23.280
<v Speaker 1>stuffed animals, and in our research we found how interesting

0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:26.400
<v Speaker 1>the life of Margaret Steife, the German seamstress turned toy

0:30:26.440 --> 0:30:29.760
<v Speaker 1>maker was. Perhaps something was mentioned during the many different

0:30:29.800 --> 0:30:32.840
<v Speaker 1>Teddy Roosevelt pods, but I could not find anything particularly

0:30:32.880 --> 0:30:37.200
<v Speaker 1>about her life and experiences. Would love to know your thoughts. Sam. Okay, Sam,

0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:40.200
<v Speaker 1>here's the scoop. It's always on my list. I'm always

0:30:40.240 --> 0:30:42.240
<v Speaker 1>poking at it. And because I had been talking about

0:30:42.280 --> 0:30:46.280
<v Speaker 1>in the last year my Koala project that talked about

0:30:46.280 --> 0:30:48.080
<v Speaker 1>ad nauseum on the show, a lot of people have

0:30:48.160 --> 0:30:49.640
<v Speaker 1>been like, ooh, is this part of a lead up

0:30:49.680 --> 0:30:54.160
<v Speaker 1>to do a maybe? Is the answer kinda yeah. Part

0:30:54.200 --> 0:30:57.760
<v Speaker 1>of it is that I want to be thorough. And

0:30:57.840 --> 0:31:01.000
<v Speaker 1>there are instances of stuffed toys of a variety of

0:31:01.040 --> 0:31:05.960
<v Speaker 1>types going back way deep into history, and some of

0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:10.920
<v Speaker 1>those are a little bit tricky because plushies like clothing

0:31:11.760 --> 0:31:14.920
<v Speaker 1>are made of things that degrade really easily compared to

0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:17.560
<v Speaker 1>things like oh yeah, metal and whatnot. So there's a

0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:20.440
<v Speaker 1>lot of theoretical we think this may have been a

0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:23.920
<v Speaker 1>toy or maybe it's just a piece of cotton wadding

0:31:23.960 --> 0:31:26.160
<v Speaker 1>that we were confused by. There's a lot of those,

0:31:26.200 --> 0:31:27.840
<v Speaker 1>but I'm it's always in the back of my head

0:31:27.840 --> 0:31:30.320
<v Speaker 1>and it's one I would love to do. It's a

0:31:30.320 --> 0:31:36.200
<v Speaker 1>slow burner, that's the answer. But the introduction of Margaret

0:31:36.240 --> 0:31:38.600
<v Speaker 1>Stiffe is a subject is actually a great idea. So

0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:40.640
<v Speaker 1>that may be the thing that turns the corner at

0:31:40.720 --> 0:31:45.040
<v Speaker 1>least a little bit, because I love plushies. Yeah, when

0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:48.400
<v Speaker 1>I read this email, I'd like, did a super quick

0:31:48.440 --> 0:31:50.239
<v Speaker 1>google and I was like, oh, that does sound very

0:31:50.280 --> 0:31:53.240
<v Speaker 1>interesting because I like, I know about Stife, I know

0:31:53.320 --> 0:31:56.720
<v Speaker 1>about the company, but I do not know about this person. Really. Yeah,

0:31:56.720 --> 0:31:59.800
<v Speaker 1>there are a few kind of heritage stuffed toy companies

0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:02.600
<v Speaker 1>would be fun to talk about as well as there's

0:32:02.640 --> 0:32:07.240
<v Speaker 1>another really cool initiative regarding recycling stuff toys that I

0:32:07.240 --> 0:32:10.720
<v Speaker 1>would love to talk about. So it's on my list,

0:32:10.840 --> 0:32:13.000
<v Speaker 1>my love list, and hopefully I'll get to it sooner

0:32:13.080 --> 0:32:15.560
<v Speaker 1>than later. Maybe that would make a good holiday episode

0:32:15.600 --> 0:32:18.479
<v Speaker 1>this year, because who doesn't listen. Plushes are very near

0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:20.400
<v Speaker 1>and dear to my heart. I am a grown adult

0:32:20.440 --> 0:32:24.200
<v Speaker 1>woman who carries a plush with me everywhere I go. Listen.

0:32:24.240 --> 0:32:27.240
<v Speaker 1>Peeps rides in my carry on bag on all my trays. No,

0:32:27.520 --> 0:32:31.440
<v Speaker 1>he's been all over the world with us. I just

0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:34.760
<v Speaker 1>love them anyway. Thank you so much, Sam for that idea,

0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:38.400
<v Speaker 1>for reminding me to think about this in a new way.

0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:42.080
<v Speaker 1>And the answer is, hopefully I will meet your six

0:32:42.200 --> 0:32:45.320
<v Speaker 1>year old's history needs, but I don't know when. Sorry,

0:32:45.320 --> 0:32:49.400
<v Speaker 1>that's not more substantial of an answer. If you would

0:32:49.400 --> 0:32:52.480
<v Speaker 1>like to write to us about stuffed animals or anything else,

0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:56.280
<v Speaker 1>you can do that at History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

0:32:56.600 --> 0:32:59.680
<v Speaker 1>You can also subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app,

0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:07.920
<v Speaker 1>where you listen to your favorite shows. Stuff you Missed

0:33:07.920 --> 0:33:11.080
<v Speaker 1>in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more

0:33:11.120 --> 0:33:15.480
<v Speaker 1>podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

0:33:15.520 --> 0:33:17.440
<v Speaker 1>wherever you listen to your favorite shows.