1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,040
Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying this podcast, and I hope you

2
00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:04,800
Speaker 1: have been, We've got great news. We've just launched a

3
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,800
Speaker 1: brand new mark store. Go to tangodi dot com slash

4
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,280
Speaker 1: store to find there are No Girls on the Internet. Mugs, stickers, magnets,

5
00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,280
Speaker 1: clothing and inclusive sizes, notebooks and more, just in time

6
00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,759
Speaker 1: for the holidays. That's Tangoti dot Com slash Store. T

7
00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,919
Speaker 1: A n g O t I dot Com slash Store.

8
00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,280
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

9
00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:35,360
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and unbost Creative, I'm Bridget Todd

10
00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,240
Speaker 1: and this is there Are No Girls on the Internet.

11
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:41,839
Speaker 1: So I'm so excited to let y'all know that on

12
00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,040
Speaker 1: December twenty two, we are getting a brand new Matrix movie,

13
00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,640
Speaker 1: The Matrix Resurrections will have a theatrical release and an

14
00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,279
Speaker 1: HBO streaming release. Now, Kiana Reeves, Carrie and Moss and JD.

15
00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,680
Speaker 1: Pete Smith are all back to reprise their roles from

16
00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,680
Speaker 1: the Marebeous Matrix films, and we've got some pretty exciting

17
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,720
Speaker 1: newcomers to the franchise too, like Neo Patrick Harris, Prianka Shopper,

18
00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,039
Speaker 1: Jonas and Christina Vigi. Now, did you know that for

19
00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,160
Speaker 1: many trans people, they see the Matrix as an allegory

20
00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,160
Speaker 1: for trans identity. Let's revisit one of my very favorite

21
00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,480
Speaker 1: episodes of There Are No Girls on the Internet about

22
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:19,280
Speaker 1: how the Matrix explains a trans experience. The Matrix first

23
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,480
Speaker 1: premiered in and when it did, it was groundbreaking. In it,

24
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,640
Speaker 1: many trans folks see a metaphor for the trans experience

25
00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,039
Speaker 1: and breaking down the systems that keep you from knowing

26
00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,800
Speaker 1: your true self. I wanted to know more about this,

27
00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,360
Speaker 1: so I reached down to Emily Vanderworth, the critic at

28
00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:40,120
Speaker 1: large for vox dot Com. Emily's piece, How the Matrix

29
00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,039
Speaker 1: Universalized the trans experience and helped Me accept my own

30
00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,120
Speaker 1: explores how the Matrix spoke to her own experiences as

31
00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,960
Speaker 1: a trans woman. You can find the link to the

32
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,880
Speaker 1: piece and the episode description. Now. I was really excited

33
00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,320
Speaker 1: to connect with Emily, but while we were going back

34
00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,400
Speaker 1: and forth to confirm the details of our interview, I

35
00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,720
Speaker 1: could tell something was up. That day, Harper's Magazine published

36
00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,320
Speaker 1: a letter denouncing what is sometimes known as cancel culture,

37
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 1: complaining that the freedom of speech and free exchange of

38
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,400
Speaker 1: ideas are being stifled by intolerant voices on the left.

39
00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,960
Speaker 1: The letter was signed by people like Harry Potter author J. K. Rowling,

40
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 1: who has a history of anti trans speech. The letter

41
00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,480
Speaker 1: fits a common pattern in which people with power attempt

42
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,600
Speaker 1: to portray public critiques of powerful people as unacceptable, even

43
00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,560
Speaker 1: when they use their power to harm people less powerful

44
00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,720
Speaker 1: than them. Someone who also signed onto the letter works

45
00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,160
Speaker 1: with Emily at Fox. Pretty understandably, finding out that one

46
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,680
Speaker 1: of her co workers also signed onto this letter didn't

47
00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 1: sit well with Emily. She reached out to her employer

48
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,920
Speaker 1: to let them know, and posted a segment of her

49
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,960
Speaker 1: response on Twitter. The letter, signed as it is by

50
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 1: several prominent anti trans voices and containing many dog whistles

51
00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,720
Speaker 1: towards anti transpositions as it does, ideally wouldn't be signed

52
00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,239
Speaker 1: by anybody at Fox, much less one of the most

53
00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:05,000
Speaker 1: prominent people at our publication, she writes, And while her

54
00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,680
Speaker 1: colleague signature on this letter made her feel uncomfortable at work,

55
00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,440
Speaker 1: she made it clear that she didn't want him reprimanded.

56
00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,480
Speaker 1: She just wanted to speak her peace and use some

57
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,680
Speaker 1: of that free speech the let her claimed to revere

58
00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,160
Speaker 1: so highly. Can you guess what happened next? For the

59
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 1: crime of being a trans woman expressing herself online, Emily

60
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,600
Speaker 1: was harassed, threatened, and attacked. Of course, she was angling

61
00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,359
Speaker 1: to have this coworker fired or punished, said critics on Twitter,

62
00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:37,520
Speaker 1: even though she had very clearly said otherwise. The harassment

63
00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,440
Speaker 1: got so bad Emily, someone who makes her living writing online,

64
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,000
Speaker 1: had to leave social media. She gave control of her

65
00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,720
Speaker 1: accounts to her friends and logged off. Before she left,

66
00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,680
Speaker 1: she tweeted the hypocrisy of celebrating so called vigorous debate

67
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,440
Speaker 1: only to call out those who offer a counter opinion

68
00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,400
Speaker 1: for offering such a counter opinion. It's obvious on its face,

69
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,200
Speaker 1: but I'll point it out anyway. They do not believe

70
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,520
Speaker 1: in free speech. They believe in free speech for them.

71
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,160
Speaker 1: During her time off social media, Emily was still down

72
00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,000
Speaker 1: to talk about the matrix, and I thought maybe our

73
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,000
Speaker 1: conversation and subsequently this episode would be all about the

74
00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:20,240
Speaker 1: fallout from the Harper's letter. But honestly, Emily is so

75
00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,920
Speaker 1: much more interesting than any of the points made in

76
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,560
Speaker 1: that letter. But the implications of Emily being harassed off

77
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,160
Speaker 1: of her online platform by people who call themselves champions

78
00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,760
Speaker 1: of free speech isn't lost on me, and it wasn't

79
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,839
Speaker 1: lost on Emily when we spoke about finding freedom online,

80
00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 1: the enduring power of telling your story and seeing stories

81
00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:47,320
Speaker 1: like yours told starting with the Matrix. Do you remember

82
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,880
Speaker 1: the first time that you saw the Matrix? It just

83
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,880
Speaker 1: was like it opened up doors in my brain. I

84
00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,320
Speaker 1: didn't quite realize it was opening up at the time.

85
00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 1: It was kind of one of the first ways I

86
00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,240
Speaker 1: started to understand my trance I identity without having any

87
00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,279
Speaker 1: clue that's what was happening. Um, I just knew that

88
00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,360
Speaker 1: when I went online and pretended to be a girl,

89
00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,280
Speaker 1: that felt really good in some some way. Pretended air

90
00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:16,520
Speaker 1: quotes are around that for all my transfriends listening. Um, yeah,

91
00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,560
Speaker 1: I I But the Matrix was kind of the first

92
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:26,279
Speaker 1: thing I saw that really delineated that difference between reality

93
00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,800
Speaker 1: and the Internet and the ways that they kind of

94
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,279
Speaker 1: feed into each other. Now, what's interesting about this is

95
00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:39,000
Speaker 1: that in the Matrix, reality is this like gray, horrible

96
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:44,920
Speaker 1: post apocalyptic landscape, and the Internet is this bustling, busy metropolis.

97
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,560
Speaker 1: But the Internet is like where things are wrong, where

98
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,680
Speaker 1: things are not right, and reality is like what you

99
00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,240
Speaker 1: have to accept, which is a very pre coming out

100
00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,200
Speaker 1: like sort of trans experience. But it's also you know,

101
00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,200
Speaker 1: the movie is not just about trans identities. It's anti capitalist,

102
00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:08,560
Speaker 1: it's extremely diverse and multicultural. You know. Uh, certainly Wowskis

103
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 1: didn't make all the right steps there, but they were

104
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,520
Speaker 1: sure trying for their early two thousand's, late nineties. Um,

105
00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,760
Speaker 1: So there's a lot more in there than just a

106
00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,200
Speaker 1: story about transness. But there's also a lot of stuff

107
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,280
Speaker 1: in there about being trans and that's a really impressive

108
00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,159
Speaker 1: thing to have pulled off at that point in time. Okay,

109
00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:30,800
Speaker 1: so if you haven't seen The Matrix in a while,

110
00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,440
Speaker 1: here is a quick submarine. Keiana Reeves has a routine

111
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,240
Speaker 1: life as a computer programmer, known by his alias Neo.

112
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,640
Speaker 1: He has this nagging feeling that something isn't right with

113
00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 1: the world. He's being presented what you know you can't

114
00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:48,159
Speaker 1: explain what do you feel? It? You felt it your

115
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 1: entire life, that there's something wrong in the world. You

116
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,560
Speaker 1: don't know what it is, but it's there, like a

117
00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,880
Speaker 1: splinter in your mind. Neo meets Trinity, played by Carrie

118
00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,640
Speaker 1: and Moss and Morphia is played by Laurence Fishburne, who

119
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 1: present him with a choice, take the red pill or

120
00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,599
Speaker 1: the Blue pill. If he takes the blue pill, the

121
00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,160
Speaker 1: world will stay as he's always experienced it. But the

122
00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,760
Speaker 1: Red Pill reveals the true nature of the world. That

123
00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,760
Speaker 1: the real world has basically been destroyed, and what we

124
00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,320
Speaker 1: think of as the real world is actually a computer

125
00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:26,400
Speaker 1: simulation called the Matrix, and unfortunately we humans are actually

126
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,760
Speaker 1: in pods of goo being used as human batteries for machines.

127
00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 1: You take the Red Pill, you stay in Wonderland, and

128
00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,120
Speaker 1: I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. As

129
00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,400
Speaker 1: Emily writes on its most basic level, the movie follows

130
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 1: characters who break free of their real life via the Internet,

131
00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,400
Speaker 1: creating online identities that feel more real than their physical ones.

132
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,320
Speaker 1: Once they're they choose new name for themselves, their clothes

133
00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,080
Speaker 1: become a whole lot cooler and less traditionally gendered. In fact,

134
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,080
Speaker 1: rumor has it the role of Swift, the blonde side

135
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,440
Speaker 1: character in The Matrix, was originally meant to be a

136
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,560
Speaker 1: character who explicitly explores gender in the Matrix, but the

137
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,000
Speaker 1: studio ended up cutting in so in terms of the

138
00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,880
Speaker 1: character of Switch, um there is this rumor that the

139
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,600
Speaker 1: Wachowski Is wanted this character named Switch to be played

140
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,200
Speaker 1: by two different actors. I believe it would be a

141
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,680
Speaker 1: man in reality and a woman in the Matrix, and

142
00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 1: that was supposed to be kind of an example of

143
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,400
Speaker 1: like how the Matrix could let you explore your truest self, because, um,

144
00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,840
Speaker 1: there is I believe that that Morpheus says at some

145
00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,960
Speaker 1: point early in the film that like, who you are

146
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,920
Speaker 1: in the Matrix is like your your brains self image.

147
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:43,880
Speaker 1: So in that case, switch would be like, oh, my

148
00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,280
Speaker 1: self image is a woman, and the only place I

149
00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,000
Speaker 1: can be that is in the matrix. And that would

150
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,200
Speaker 1: have complicated the whole clean dynamic between reality and the

151
00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,199
Speaker 1: matrix so much more. Uh. The rumor is that Warner

152
00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,640
Speaker 1: Brothers wouldn't allow The Witchowskis to include it. Um, it's

153
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,160
Speaker 1: been very hard for people to track down the source

154
00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,520
Speaker 1: of this story. I tend to believe it because I

155
00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,400
Speaker 1: have talked to people who heard about it. But you know,

156
00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,520
Speaker 1: and it also really fits with what we know about

157
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,480
Speaker 1: the Witch how Skis now, which is I think which

158
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,040
Speaker 1: as I think it might be a little too clean

159
00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,240
Speaker 1: and convenient, but it certainly would have been cool. I

160
00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:18,880
Speaker 1: wish it had been in there. I think it would

161
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,000
Speaker 1: have helped me figure some stuff out more quickly, or

162
00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:23,760
Speaker 1: maybe it wouldn't happen. Maybe I just would have been like,

163
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:28,480
Speaker 1: that's cool. When Emily saw the matrix, she connected with

164
00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,720
Speaker 1: it instantly. Using the Internet to become closer to understanding

165
00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,680
Speaker 1: your true self is something both Neo and Emily have

166
00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:43,440
Speaker 1: in common. My sister and I accidentally shared a Yahoo

167
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,880
Speaker 1: Chat account. This is back when Yahoo Chat existed, and

168
00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,920
Speaker 1: she was she was a cheerleader, so she created the

169
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,240
Speaker 1: name cheer and Chick and I accidentally logged in as

170
00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,760
Speaker 1: that one day and it was immediately a barrage of

171
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,640
Speaker 1: people with male coded screen name was being like, Hey

172
00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,720
Speaker 1: A s L, Hey sexy, you know all of that.

173
00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,200
Speaker 1: And I hated it, but I hated it in a

174
00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,400
Speaker 1: way that felt good. And I liked that attention in

175
00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,120
Speaker 1: a way that I never liked attention I got for

176
00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,800
Speaker 1: performing masculinity. All I had to do was change my

177
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,720
Speaker 1: screen name, and suddenly, like people were like, oh my god,

178
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,680
Speaker 1: you're pretty, Oh you sound really cool, cheering ship do

179
00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,000
Speaker 1: you cheerlead? M A s L. I'm you know, twenty

180
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:35,480
Speaker 1: two male California, nice smile, and like, I mean, we

181
00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,840
Speaker 1: were all lying. We were all lying in some way

182
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,719
Speaker 1: that man probably did not have a nice smile. He

183
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,319
Speaker 1: probably had had a cold and chilling smile that would

184
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 1: scare you if you saw it in the middle of

185
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,240
Speaker 1: the night. But I was lying, and I wasn't lying,

186
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,640
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't realize I wasn't lying, but I

187
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,040
Speaker 1: that was the true The truest thing I ever did

188
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,080
Speaker 1: was pretending to be a girl online because it was

189
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:04,800
Speaker 1: it was, It was so easy. In the Matrix, Neo's

190
00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,040
Speaker 1: journey is accepting that he is the one, the fidget,

191
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,320
Speaker 1: who is meant to save humanity. He struggles to accept

192
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,559
Speaker 1: this identity and at times questions if he'll ever learn

193
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,720
Speaker 1: how to be the one, But that power was actually

194
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,520
Speaker 1: within him the whole time. He just had to accept it.

195
00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:29,600
Speaker 1: It's something that really resonates with Emiline. What I often

196
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:34,080
Speaker 1: tell trans women who are newly out is you already

197
00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,160
Speaker 1: know how to do this. You don't know you know

198
00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,520
Speaker 1: how to do this, but you are going to understand

199
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,880
Speaker 1: how to operate in women's spaces and function as a

200
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,400
Speaker 1: woman in society, both in all of the good and

201
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:50,000
Speaker 1: bad ways that that is implied within the patriarchy. You

202
00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,880
Speaker 1: have this knowledge inside of it. You don't realize he's

203
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,400
Speaker 1: there and you're going to unlock it and you're suddenly

204
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 1: gonna be like, oh, yeah, okay, this makes sense. Um talk,

205
00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,560
Speaker 1: getting two women make so much more sense than trying

206
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:07,640
Speaker 1: to do the male bonding thing. Um Like going close shopping.

207
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: That was the thing I always hated, and that was

208
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:11,280
Speaker 1: one of the ways that I was like, oh, I'm

209
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,640
Speaker 1: probably not trans because if I was a girl, I'd

210
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,160
Speaker 1: like clothes shopping, you know, that sort of that sort

211
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,680
Speaker 1: of productive stereotype. But really I didn't like going clothes

212
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,080
Speaker 1: shopping because I didn't like wearing men's clothes. Now, like

213
00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,199
Speaker 1: one of my friends wants to go shopping, that's great,

214
00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,200
Speaker 1: it's fun, it's a it's a it's a chance to

215
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,560
Speaker 1: bond and hang out with friends, and like, there's so

216
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,040
Speaker 1: much more to womanhood, to gender, to all of that

217
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,640
Speaker 1: than what I'm describing. But like, you already have the

218
00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:40,760
Speaker 1: base source code for femininity, for womanhood, for hanging out

219
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,960
Speaker 1: with the girls in your brain as a trans woman.

220
00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:46,520
Speaker 1: It just you just need to find a way to

221
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,079
Speaker 1: unlock it. And that was what I That was what

222
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,360
Speaker 1: was happening to me in those chat rooms I was

223
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,080
Speaker 1: logging in as a girl. People were treating me like

224
00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:04,760
Speaker 1: a girl, and I got it. I think I'm remembering. Um.

225
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,040
Speaker 1: There were some intensely validating experiences there when like there

226
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,320
Speaker 1: would be another woman logged in and she would like

227
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,360
Speaker 1: message me and be like, oh my god, it's crazy

228
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,280
Speaker 1: in here, and I'd just be like, yes, it is.

229
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,160
Speaker 1: It is crazy. And here we are two women talking

230
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,839
Speaker 1: about our experiences, how crazy it is to be a

231
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,600
Speaker 1: lot of into this chat room of this barrage. And

232
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:26,360
Speaker 1: then you know, we do some small talk or whatever,

233
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,760
Speaker 1: and it would inevitably come to the point where she

234
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,280
Speaker 1: was like, well, you know, who are you? Where are

235
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,840
Speaker 1: you from? And like I would kind of freeze up

236
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,040
Speaker 1: because I've described this girl that wasn't real but felt real,

237
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,280
Speaker 1: and I was describing myself. It was the late nineties,

238
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,040
Speaker 1: so I had this super strong attachment to Reese Witherspon,

239
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:46,880
Speaker 1: who who didn't a little bit older than me, but

240
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,160
Speaker 1: like Tracy Flick in election, you know a lot of

241
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 1: my friends saw her as a villain, and I was like,

242
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,960
Speaker 1: you know, I find her an aspirational figure, but we're

243
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,839
Speaker 1: not going to unpack that. We're just not going to

244
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 1: think about that. And for as annoying as she compete,

245
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,679
Speaker 1: Tracy Flick is who I would have been. That's that

246
00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,440
Speaker 1: that girl I was always describing the chat rooms like

247
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,240
Speaker 1: kind of driven and type A and a little bit

248
00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,719
Speaker 1: annoying and a little bit irritating, but inevitably is going

249
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,720
Speaker 1: to like take over the world. Um And I think

250
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,600
Speaker 1: the universe saw how potent that energy was within me

251
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,560
Speaker 1: and was like, we gotta tie one hand behind her back.

252
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,800
Speaker 1: So I think that's why. I think that's what happened.

253
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,240
Speaker 1: And my joke was, you know, it's just like how

254
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 1: the Wachowski's cast Qiana Reeves and carry In Mosses trans women,

255
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,800
Speaker 1: because like they are both analogs for trans women in

256
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,120
Speaker 1: this movie. And you know, it was a joke, but

257
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,840
Speaker 1: it's really true, Like Keanu, like Neo's Neo's journey towards

258
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:46,480
Speaker 1: self acceptance is exactly what you're describing, and um, so honestly, honestly,

259
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,560
Speaker 1: so is the whole thing that Trinity is on. Like

260
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,640
Speaker 1: Trinity is like a trans woman and like her third

261
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,440
Speaker 1: year of transition, who's found this like girl at her

262
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,040
Speaker 1: support group who's like, I don't know what I'm gonna do.

263
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,880
Speaker 1: I'm so scared, And then Trinity is like, no, we're

264
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,120
Speaker 1: gonna fucking run up some walls. We're gonna bring helicopters down.

265
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,120
Speaker 1: You have no idea how much power you have inside

266
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,320
Speaker 1: of you. And yeah, it's it's a movie about It's

267
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,320
Speaker 1: a movie about what we in the trans community called

268
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,200
Speaker 1: self acceptance, the moment when you're like, Okay, something's going

269
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,080
Speaker 1: on here and I need to admit it to myself.

270
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,160
Speaker 1: And maybe you don't even admit your trans but you

271
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,840
Speaker 1: do admit to yourself that, like, there is this world

272
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 1: inside of you that you are not exploring, that something

273
00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,120
Speaker 1: needs to be done about that. The Matrix is really

274
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,640
Speaker 1: about that, and I think it's telling that when it

275
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,840
Speaker 1: was written both Lana and Lily Wichowski it seemed to

276
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:42,080
Speaker 1: have even been closeted from themselves. The recent documentary Disclosure

277
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,120
Speaker 1: on Netflix, Lily Wachowski is interviewed about The Matrix and

278
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:46,800
Speaker 1: she's like, at the time, I didn't know, but I

279
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,800
Speaker 1: watch it now, I'm like, oh, yeah, okay. Um. Lana

280
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,360
Speaker 1: Wachowski came out sometime in the early two thousands, came

281
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,080
Speaker 1: out to herself. She came out publicly in I think

282
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,000
Speaker 1: two thousan nine somewhere they're in there now. She came

283
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,160
Speaker 1: up publicly around the lease of claud Alice, which was

284
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,040
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve. There were rumors about her for like

285
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:09,280
Speaker 1: the entirety of the two thousand's um and they were

286
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 1: pretty cruel and nasty rumors, and I don't recommend going

287
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,240
Speaker 1: to look up the stories because they are bad. The

288
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,440
Speaker 1: Matrix was directed by sisters Lana and Lily Wachowski, who

289
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,400
Speaker 1: would later both publicly come out of strands in Lanna

290
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,840
Speaker 1: gave a moving acceptance speech for the HRC's Visibility Award

291
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: about her journey to self acceptance and the desire to

292
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,840
Speaker 1: imagine and build worlds where all people can see themselves

293
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 1: fully reflected. I am here because when I was young,

294
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,400
Speaker 1: I wanted very badly to be a writer. I wanted

295
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,200
Speaker 1: to be a filmmaker, but I couldn't find anyone like

296
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,080
Speaker 1: me in the world, and it felt that my dreams

297
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:51,320
Speaker 1: were foreclosed simply because my gender was less typical than others.

298
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,680
Speaker 1: But Lana Wachowski was kind of on the cusp of

299
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,920
Speaker 1: coming out when they were making The Matrix, and you

300
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 1: can see that within that movie. It is about taking

301
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:07,639
Speaker 1: that journey towards self acceptance, and honestly, the poor reputation

302
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,919
Speaker 1: of the Matrix sequels, both of which I really like,

303
00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,879
Speaker 1: and the second of Matrix Reloaded I adore. I think

304
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,000
Speaker 1: it's one of their best movies. Both of those sequels

305
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 1: are about what happens after you self accept and the

306
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 1: ways that it kind of deconstructs the world in ways

307
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,359
Speaker 1: that you're not ready for that you don't always understand.

308
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,160
Speaker 1: There's this famous meme joke in UM in trans Woman

309
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,680
Speaker 1: Circles that's like it's the galaxy brain meme. So it starts,

310
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,920
Speaker 1: I wish I was a girl, UM, and the second

311
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,840
Speaker 1: one is I can just be a girl, and the

312
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,840
Speaker 1: third one is I always was a girl, and then

313
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,720
Speaker 1: the final one the Galaxy Brain, is destroy capitalism. That's

314
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 1: what happens is you realize you question the gender binary,

315
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,040
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, wait, I should I just should

316
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:51,679
Speaker 1: be on the other side of it, or I should

317
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,639
Speaker 1: not be on the binary at all, or I should

318
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,639
Speaker 1: be totally removed from the spectrum of gender, or whatever

319
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,720
Speaker 1: your experience is, and you're suddenly like, wait, all systems

320
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,760
Speaker 1: are kind of made up, and you're like, oh, we

321
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 1: can just you know, once you see that you're seeing

322
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,639
Speaker 1: the matrix, you can't unsee it. And suddenly are like,

323
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,000
Speaker 1: how could we build better systems? Like if human beings

324
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,120
Speaker 1: require systems to operate and live and evolve, how can

325
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,320
Speaker 1: we do something better? And that's kind of what the

326
00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 1: Matrix trilogy is about. Let's take a quick break enter back.

327
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 1: At its core, the Matrix is about someone seeking out

328
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,520
Speaker 1: the framework for understanding who they really are and having

329
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,560
Speaker 1: a hard time figuring out what it all means. At

330
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,679
Speaker 1: the beginning of the film, Neo's life is quote normal

331
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,680
Speaker 1: life follows a specific routine, but online things are different.

332
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,360
Speaker 1: And while the Matrix can be read as a metaphor

333
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,080
Speaker 1: for trans identity, built by two trans women, it's pretty

334
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,639
Speaker 1: interesting that the language of the red pill has been

335
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 1: latched onto by anti feminist, white supremacist groups in those

336
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 1: online spaces, being quote red pilled if it means for

337
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,359
Speaker 1: men to open their eyes to all the ways that

338
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,720
Speaker 1: women and the feminists have misled them, And it's kind

339
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 1: of funny when you think about it. Yeah, I think

340
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:17,760
Speaker 1: there is this element of trying to build careful, scripted

341
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,440
Speaker 1: routines for yourself that I found to be often very

342
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,679
Speaker 1: true of pre coming out trans people across the board.

343
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,680
Speaker 1: You don't entirely understand the gender you were born into.

344
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 1: But you can like make rules for yourself. You can

345
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,680
Speaker 1: create a programming language, you can exist within it. That's

346
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 1: exactly what Neo is doing at the start of the movie.

347
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 1: He has all these routines, he has all these subsystems.

348
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,040
Speaker 1: He's a program working within a program, and when he

349
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 1: breaks out of the matrix, he begins to understand the

350
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 1: ways in which he was misled and the ways in

351
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 1: which society um the ways in which society did not

352
00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 1: give him a language for who he was. So yeah,

353
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,239
Speaker 1: I think there is I think there is a lot

354
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 1: of metaphorical power to that idea of the red pill.

355
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,239
Speaker 1: Clearly a lot of people have taken different ideas from it,

356
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,560
Speaker 1: but there is metaphorical power to this idea that you're

357
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 1: being lied to. Your life is a program. You do

358
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,560
Speaker 1: not have free will, you need to develop free will

359
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,879
Speaker 1: by any means necessary, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And that is

360
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 1: such a beautiful idea and a beautiful realization of trans identities.

361
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 1: That is simultaneously something that apparently spoke to the all Right, So,

362
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,640
Speaker 1: which is so funny. I mean, you point this out

363
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 1: in your piece that the all Right sees like taking

364
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 1: the red Pill as this, you know, breaking through this

365
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 1: lie that you know that has been holding down men

366
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,679
Speaker 1: and were so oppressed. But it's like, actually, you're latching

367
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 1: onto something that trans women, like like a framework that

368
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,680
Speaker 1: trans women built for you. You know. It's like very

369
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 1: it's like almost kind of funny. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

370
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 1: um it's uh, it's horribly hilariously misguided. But at the

371
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 1: same time it makes sense because, like I said earlier,

372
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 1: this movie is pretty anti capitalist, not like hugely anti capitalist,

373
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,439
Speaker 1: but quite a bit. And there's this there's this range

374
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 1: of movies from the nineties that are sort of about

375
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 1: the ways in which they quote unquote victory of capitalism

376
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 1: over communism and sort of the end of history. Uh,

377
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,119
Speaker 1: the as the the writer Francis Fukuyama dubbed it, the

378
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 1: end of history had resulted in neoliberalism triumphing over everything

379
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,800
Speaker 1: else and capitalism the best system and all of this,

380
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 1: and there's all these movies about, well, then why does

381
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 1: that feel so empty? You know? You have um, I

382
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 1: think an early example that is ground Talk Day. Ground

383
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: Talk Day is about like being trapped in these routines

384
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: that don't really make sense and then learning to become

385
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,919
Speaker 1: a better person and through those routines. But right in

386
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 1: the year the Matrix comes out. You have The Matrix,

387
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: which is about that, you have Fight Club, which is

388
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 1: about that. You have American Beauty, which is about that.

389
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: You have Being John Malkovich, which is kind of about that.

390
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 1: I think the Matrix is the one that's held up

391
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 1: best of those. I love Being John Malkovich. Um for

392
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 1: American Beauty, let's not talk about that. It's kind of

393
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 1: movie when you think about it. Yeah, My Club is good,

394
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: but so many people have taken the wrong message from

395
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 1: it that it's it's also harder to defend. At least

396
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,199
Speaker 1: with the Matrix you can be like, yeah, a lot

397
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 1: of people have taken the wrong message from those, but

398
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: it was directed by two trans women, so um. But yeah,

399
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 1: there's this element of anti capitalism. So when people are like,

400
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,719
Speaker 1: I need to reject the prison that society has placed

401
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 1: me in, they're so they're so close to what this

402
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: movie is about. They're so close to this idea that, like,

403
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 1: even if you don't want to go so far as

404
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: to say capitalism is broken, to say that consumerism is broken,

405
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 1: the idea that you can find freedom and self and

406
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 1: identity in things like in essence, I think every major philosophy,

407
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: every major religion rejects that idea. Things are not ourselves,

408
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 1: We are not our things. So like, at the very least,

409
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: that's what the matrix is really talking about. So to

410
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: talk about like to take get that far, get that

411
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: far and grasping its message and get to a place

412
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 1: where you're like, actually, it's talking about how women have

413
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: made the world bad. Like I don't know how you

414
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: make that that swerve. But every time I talk about

415
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: this movie and I talk about it as an allegory

416
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 1: for trans identities, um you know, like vox or someone

417
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: posted on Facebook and the comments are full of people

418
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: who are like, no, it's not about that, it's about this,

419
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 1: and like, yes, that's your that is absolutely your right

420
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 1: to that interpretation. That's how criticism works, that's how um

421
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 1: our understanding of art and the death of the author

422
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: and all of that works. But at a certain point,

423
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: the fact that it was written by two trans women

424
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: and directed by two trans women has to enter into

425
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 1: your generation of what it's all about, and that for

426
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: a lot of people, the idea that it's a trans

427
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: metaphor is mind blowing. Like a friend of mine, Aaron Read,

428
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 1: another trans woman posted on Twitter. You know, the Matrix

429
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: is directed by two trans women, and there's a metaphor

430
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: for coming out somethink that's simple, and like fifty thousand

431
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: people liked it and we're like, just blew my mind

432
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: and the cysts I just don't know what we're gonna

433
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: do with. Why do you think the idea that the

434
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: Matrix is a metaphor for the trans experience kind of

435
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 1: goes overlooked so often? I mean, it's it's metaphor. Um,

436
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: Let's take a look at Star Wars. You know. Star

437
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 1: Wars is the probably the movie before the Matrix. Yeah,

438
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: it's definitely the movie before the Matrix that changed the

439
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: film industry at the most. And the Matrix lives in

440
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 1: Star Wars shadow in the way that everything after the

441
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 1: Matrix lives in the Matrix is shadow. So you look

442
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: back at Star Wars. Star Wars is a movie that

443
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: George Lucas when he started writing it was like, Okay,

444
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: America's the Empire, the v at Kong, or the Rebels.

445
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,239
Speaker 1: Yet Americans always self identify with the rebels, because you know,

446
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: that's how we like to think of ourselves, our our

447
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 1: foundational myth is scrappy underdogs overcoming this gigantic colonial power.

448
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: But we don't think about how the makeup of those

449
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: scrappy underdogs was all white landowning men, you know, many

450
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: of whom were slave owners, many of and even other

451
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: people you know who weren't slave owners have done other

452
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: horrible things. And we were displacing indigenous peoples and forcing

453
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: them to move further and further west. And there's a

454
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: lot to that foundational myth that gets written out so

455
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: we can see ourselves as the rebel alliance in Star Wars.

456
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 1: But the movies continue to make more and more explicit

457
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: that any colonial power like the United States is in

458
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: line with the empire and the people who are being

459
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: colonized are in line with the rebels, and yet you know,

460
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: we still continue to be like, yep, we're the rebel alliance.

461
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: Anytime you take a story that is based in reality

462
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: and moved into metaphor, it's going to be so many

463
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: people who are like, yeah, I see this metaphor as

464
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: directly reflecting my experience, and like that's fair, that's fine,

465
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: you know, like all of those interpretations are valid. That's

466
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: what happens when you're dealing with metaphor, and science fiction

467
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 1: is inevitably always based on metaphor. In some way, I

468
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: think it's important to take into mind that two trans

469
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: women made this film, but I'm also a trans woman.

470
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: I like the fact that there's this gigantic, defining piece

471
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: of pop pop culture directed by two trans women. When

472
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: I got to interview Lily Wachowski, I nearly crumbled into dust,

473
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 1: Like I almost fell into fell onto the floor. And

474
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: then she said she'd read my article, and like I,

475
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: I left my body. Uh, I went up to heaven

476
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: for a little bit, came back down. I was like, yes,

477
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: if you haven't already guessed, stories have been immensely gratifying

478
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: for Emily's understanding of herself. When she publicly came out

479
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: as trans, she'd already made a career out of writing

480
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: publicly online. In a spro box, she used The Handmaid's

481
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: Tale as a means of coming to terms with and

482
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: breaking down the walls around what it means to be

483
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: a woman at once a kind of freedom and depression.

484
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: What is it about stories and movies and science fiction

485
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: and TV shows that really helps you understand the world

486
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: around you and your place in it. Understanding womanhood is

487
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: understanding your oppression within the patriarchy. That doesn't mean that

488
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: you yourself are always oppressed. There are a million ways. Well,

489
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 1: there are three big ways that I have a lot

490
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: more privilege than most trans women. I'm white, so I

491
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: benefit from these societal privileges afforded to white people in America.

492
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: I am upper middle class, and I work for a

493
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: company that covers you know, my health expenses. And I

494
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: live in California, which is a state that has few

495
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: structural barriers to transition. If you're an adult and you

496
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: want to take hormones, Californias like great, go for it. Um.

497
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: Those are three things I have that a lot of

498
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: trans women in the world, the vast majority of trans

499
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: women in the world, do not have those three advantages.

500
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: So that has helped me considerably. And I think especially

501
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: when you grow up as a seemingly when you as

502
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: when you grow up seeming to the world like a white,

503
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: straight syste man, you don't encounter a lot of structural oppression. UM.

504
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: One of the ways that film and television helps us

505
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 1: understand ourselves better is exposes us to the stories of

506
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: other people. UM. For instance, I am never going to

507
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: have the experience of growing up that Barry Jenkins and

508
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: Terrell Alvin McCreary did. But Moonlight is a movie that

509
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: opens that window to me. I can't completely understand it,

510
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: but I can empathize with it because I've seen through

511
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: that window. I've seen people live those lives. And the

512
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: thing that happens is when the film and television are

513
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: such potent, powerful, um such potent, powerful expressions of the self,

514
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: because they're so riveting, they draw you in so much.

515
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: I know plenty of trans women who found themselves through

516
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: like video games, which is a similar situation. You know,

517
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: they famously would always play the female character and be

518
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: like this feels good. Um. Movies and television give you

519
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: that space to open up and understand yourself better. And

520
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: at some point I had to confront the fact that

521
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: the characters I always most identified with were women, Like

522
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: I always identified with Willow on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

523
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: I always identified with Rory on Gilmore girls. You know,

524
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: there was I just had this thing where I was like, Oh,

525
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: these these girls, these teenage girls when I was a teenager,

526
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: these teenage girls just they just speak to me on

527
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: some fundamental level. Um. Similarly, Peggy Olsen on Matman. When

528
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: I became an adult, I was like, oh, she's always

529
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: overlooked for her work, and my brain would be like,

530
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: you are not overlooked for your work. A part of

531
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: it is understanding the structural oppression that women face throughout

532
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: the world, particularly in the United States, and coming to

533
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: understand that within yourself and the ways that you see

534
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: it without in the world. But also there's an element

535
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: of personal oppression. I wasn't facing the oppression. I wasn't

536
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: facing the roadblocks that Peggy Olsen faced to get my

537
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: writing notice, to get things published. The second I was like,

538
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: you know, I think I'd like to be a TV critic,

539
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: Like people were like, here's some jobs, white Man, and

540
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: kind of like now I look back, and that kind

541
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: of blows my mind. Like my qualification was I was

542
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: a good writer, and I don't want to dismerch out

543
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: that is a good qualification to have if you want

544
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: to be a writer. But I just kind of asked

545
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: for the job and people gave it to me, and like, WHOA,

546
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: what is that? So I was not being kept down

547
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: like Peggy Olson, but I was. I was keeping myself down.

548
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: Peggy Olson was doing all the writing in the back

549
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: of my brain, and this guy was getting all the

550
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: credit for it. And there is an element of yes,

551
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: understanding structural oppression. Yes, understanding the patriarchy, Yes, understanding the

552
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: ways that women are are just just the microaggressions that

553
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: women face every day when someone's like, hey, sweetie, how

554
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: you do it, and you're just like he fine. But

555
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: even deeper and more powerful is the the coming to

556
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: understand and conceptualize of yourself as a woman and breaking

557
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: through the layers of oppression you have placed upon yourself.

558
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: And the reason the Internet is such a powerful tool

559
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: to do that is because it gives that that Peggy

560
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: Olson in the back of my brain an outlet where

561
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: she can keep writing, and she can keep leaving the

562
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: messages in that writing, and I can be like, you know,

563
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: this is really interesting, the way that you seem disconnected

564
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: from yourself, as though your true self is someone else,

565
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: and then be like, oh, it's two thirteen. Let's put

566
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: that on hold for a while. Um, so yeah, it is.

567
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: It is a way in which the larger oppressions of

568
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: society become visited in the personal oppression of the self.

569
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: Because you're terrified of the thought if I'm trans, that

570
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: seems really hard. Can I just try to not be trans?

571
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: That's what society is asking you to do, is to

572
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: try to not be trans, and you are manifesting that

573
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: within yourself. Film and television helps you break through that wall.

574
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: I probably don't need to tell you that being a

575
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: woman online sometimes means dealing with harassment. And the fact is,

576
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: as we're talking, Emily has been driven off of her

577
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: own platforms because people don't like that she's speaking up

578
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: as the authority of her own experience. But for all

579
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: the bad experience that she faces online, it's also where

580
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: she builds community with other trans women. Every day, I

581
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: wake up to two or three Twitter dm so I

582
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: leave my Twitter d ms open because that's how a

583
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: lot of questioning trans women find me, and that is

584
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: very important to me. That is part of what I

585
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: think is like part of my reason to be on

586
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: this planet is to help those trans women find their way.

587
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: And I wake up to two or three d m

588
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: s from guys who are like, hey, you're beautiful, Hey

589
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: you know, and it's not even like bad, it's just

590
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 1: kind of like I don't need this, and I just

591
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: delete them and like, that's just become I realized the

592
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: other day that has become a low level radiation hum

593
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: in my life. I'm just like, you know what, this

594
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: is the thing I have to put up with, and

595
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have to put up with it. It's not

596
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: a thing I should have to put up with. But

597
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: you just get in neared to it. You're just like, Okay,

598
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: I'm a woman online. This is just how it is.

599
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: And that also goes for you know, being a trans

600
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: woman online. There are people who I really don't like

601
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: trans women, but I tend to have them blocked or

602
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: I tend to have them, I tend to not listen

603
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: to them and just you know, immediately get rid of

604
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: them from my my feed. There are just as many

605
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: people who and these are trickier to find. Usually. There

606
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: are people who fetishize trans identities. There's people there are

607
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: there are you know, men who um love trans women

608
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: and like I want to, but have turned it into

609
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: kind of a fetish and have turned my identity into

610
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: kind of a fetish. And in the community we call

611
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: them chasers. Um. I don't know if I'm like breaking

612
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 1: breaking a law saying that among the cists, but uh,

613
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: and like they're harder to find because they're often just

614
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: like they reply to you and they're like, you're great

615
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: way to go, and you're like, oh, thank you for

616
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: your support. Good male ally. But sometimes and the problem

617
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: is sometimes they're what we call eggs, you know, which

618
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: is a trans woman who hasn't yet self accepted, but

619
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: it's knocking at that door and like them saying you're

620
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,439
Speaker 1: a great way to go. Like I remember when Laura

621
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: Jane Grace, the synca from Against Me, came out, I

622
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: posted a comment on my website, The A D Club,

623
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: where I was writing at the time. I posted a

624
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: comment that was like, good for her, she did great,

625
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: and it's really good whenever anyone can overcome, you know,

626
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: find themselves blah blah blah. And if you go find it,

627
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: it's so obviously about myself and I don't know how

628
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 1: to say that, and it's just but at the time

629
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: I just was like, yeah, what a great thing. And

630
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,479
Speaker 1: like that's the problem. You can't always tell the people

631
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: who fetishize you from the people who really do just

632
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: want to celebrate you, or the people who are celebrating

633
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: you because they want to celebrate themselves because there's a

634
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: huge overlap in all of those areas. So I guess

635
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: on some level, I just got used to the low

636
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: level radiation home of terrible people. On another level, UM,

637
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier my best friend and she reached out

638
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: to my I had a long for a long time,

639
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: I had a secret Twitter account where I posted as

640
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 1: a girl named Emily and was talking about my journey

641
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: towards transition. I had that account for over a year

642
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: before I came out publicly, and I still have it. Um,

643
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: it's a Sandalwood Emily. I leave it up so that

644
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: people who are questioning can go back and see my journey,

645
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: go back to the very start in March and read

646
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: all the way through. Uh. But uh, my best friend

647
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: reached out to me in d M there and was like, listen,

648
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: I really love the stuff you've written. Because I was

649
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: writing a newsletter under the name and Emily sandal Wood,

650
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 1: and she just was like, I really love the stuff

651
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: you've written. I speak so deeply to me. I'm pretty

652
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 1: sure I'm a trans woman. It was her like guy account. Um,

653
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: I will take one million harassing tweets for that one

654
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: DM for that. She is my heart. She and I

655
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 1: have been through so much together, and I adore her.

656
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: The Internet is a terrible place, but it's also a

657
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: place where you can find the people you need. I am,

658
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: and I'm in so many communities with their trans people

659
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: that are closed. You know, they're they're slacks or discords

660
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: or Facebook groups or whatever. And those people have found

661
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: each other over the Internet, usually overread it or Twitter,

662
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: two platforms we think of as gross and horrible and bad,

663
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: and yes they are, and yes I have been subject

664
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 1: to Twitter harassment um, both on a hugely large scale

665
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: and on a really minor scale where you just learned

666
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: to tune it out, which is maybe not what you

667
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: should do. The second I came out, somebody on four

668
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: chune Um doctored up an article supposedly written by me

669
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: about how white babies are white supremacy and that I

670
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: had supposedly written this and it was obviously fake. It

671
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: didn't use any of Box's typefaces. It was written published

672
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: under the my old name and then the last name

673
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: Van Whirf, which is a name I've never viewed. It's

674
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: just amazing, Honestly. The thing I respect least is the craftsmanship.

675
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: Like if you want to try to like get me

676
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: in trouble with people, you can at least like make

677
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: it look real. You google it, it doesn't come up.

678
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 1: I identify myself as a person of color within it

679
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: when I'm very obviously like just milky white. Um, my

680
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: friends used to call me the Milkman when I was

681
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 1: like like corn fed Captain America Midwestern Shocks. And so

682
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: many people have approached me about this is you did

683
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: you do this? And there's so many people who like

684
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: are online and they're just like, yep, this is yet

685
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,959
Speaker 1: another trans woman who just thinks, you know, blah blah

686
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and it's people project shit onto me

687
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: all the time. Now, people just project whatever they want

688
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: to on me. That's the thing I've realized. I'm trying

689
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: to write about this. I'm trying to write about the

690
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: harassment trans women in in the world. Are our phantoms.

691
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: People hear us, they see us, but they don't really.

692
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: They have conjured a version of us that they believe

693
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: in so much more strongly. And we can be in

694
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: the same room with them and there can be something

695
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: making noise upstairs, you know, rattling chains or thumping around

696
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: on the floor, and people will be like there's that

697
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: trans woman again, and you can be there and be like,

698
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: I'm not that, I'm this person, I'm someone else, and

699
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: that's all they'll hear is the phantom. But then you'll

700
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: find someone who's in the room with you and sees

701
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: you and knows you and says, Hi, you are the

702
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: person I've been looking for my whole life. That's worth it.

703
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: It's worth it for that. When people have quote intellectual

704
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: debate about trans people, they talk about them like that

705
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: this abstract concept conjured up for the sake of argument.

706
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: And even when media outlet's wrote about the harassment Emily

707
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: faced after speaking up when a coworkers signed the Harper's letter,

708
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: they covered it like some kind of petty ideological workplace dispute.

709
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: But this is about Emily's actual life and our actual

710
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: lived experience as a trans woman. Gender is hard coded

711
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: into us in a way that I think it's hard

712
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: persist people to understand or imagine. I think art is

713
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: the best way to express that. I can tell you

714
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: all the times until I'm blue in the face, that

715
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 1: like womanhood makes more sense to me, that taking estrogen

716
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: made my brain come alive in the way it never had,

717
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: that having that my body increasingly feels like my body,

718
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: and before it was just kind of like the substraction

719
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: that I existed within that. Now I can be like, yeah,

720
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: it would be cool to look like Keanu Reeves for

721
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: a day, but I would immediately want to come back

722
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: to who I am right now because this is home.

723
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: This is what feels like home. I mean, it would

724
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: be cool to look like Kiana Reeves a day. He's

725
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: very handsome. It's very handsome, you've noticed, but more after

726
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: this quick rain, let's get right back to it. Just

727
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: like Neo use the Internet to help understand the true

728
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: nature of identity, Emily is hardened to say so many

729
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: people using social media to get closer to who they

730
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: are too. The thing I always tell people who reach

731
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: out to me on Twitter dot com, no, like, I

732
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: just don't feel attached to my manhood. It's usually trans women.

733
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: I'm my manhood at all, And I'm like, it's worth

734
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: probing that you might just be a siss guy who

735
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: has like these restrictions that have been placed on you

736
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: that you don't feel comfortable with, and learning what those

737
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: are and better defining yourself is fine? Is good? Is optimal?

738
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: Everybody should have to examine why their gender is the

739
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: way it is, and what about the ways it's been

740
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: programmed in for them work for them, and what don't.

741
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: I'm a very feminine trans woman. I've run all the

742
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: way opposite direction of how I was raised. But I

743
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: like it. I like wearing dresses, and I like, you know,

744
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: going out for for for brunch with my girlfriends when

745
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: we can leave the house. Um, I like all those

746
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: things that you were so with an extremely basic white

747
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: lady because I'm an extremely basic white lady. But like

748
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: that feels good, that feels like a home. I want

749
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: everybody's gender to feel like home to them, and I

750
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 1: think for many SIS people it doesn't and they don't

751
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: look into it and they don't understand why when it

752
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 1: might be just one thing, it might be just like, okay, yeah,

753
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: I'm a SIS guy. But but this thing where we

754
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: all sit around and you know, um, compare notes about

755
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: women we've had sex with. It doesn't feel good to me.

756
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: It doesn't feel right to me. I don't like this

757
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: aspect of my gender. Then you could cut it out

758
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: of your life and you'll feel better, you'll feel more whole.

759
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: Or maybe you're like me, and you sat there and

760
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:36,959
Speaker 1: listened to all of that and you're like, oh my god,

761
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: I feel like really uncomfortable right now. There's this element

762
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: of I feel like a spy, like a spy who's

763
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: like learning secrets about how I behaved. And I didn't

764
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: understand that when I was in high school and all

765
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: my friends were like, um, I didn't understand why that

766
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: may be uncomfortable. At the time, I thought it was

767
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: because I was a good Christian and I didn't like

768
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: to think about, you know, sexuality, and all I do

769
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: like hearing other women referred to that way, like it

770
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: is worth examining your gender. If you think your sis,

771
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: you're probably just gonna land on yeah I'm a man

772
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: or yeah I'm a woman, but you might go somewhere

773
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: more interesting, you know. I think I see one of

774
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: the things that I think is really encouraging to me.

775
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: There's a number of people who use he, they or

776
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 1: she they pronouns, which is like, yeah, Okay, I'm comfortable

777
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: being identified as a man or a woman, but there

778
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: is this part of me that does not fit that

779
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: binary and that is where that they comes in. It's

780
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: somewhere in the mushy middle and most of us live

781
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: in the mushy middle, like, yeah, I'm very feminine, but

782
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 1: I have several traditionally masculine things I like. That doesn't

783
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: make me non binary. I don't want to claim that identity,

784
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: so that is worth That is encouraging to me. This

785
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: idea that like more people are accepting that gender is flexible,

786
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: that it can change over time, that it can you

787
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: can have better understanding of yourself over time, that whatever

788
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: was hard coded into you by society is not necessarily

789
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: what's hard coded into you by you. I mean, you're

790
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: seeing so many seemingly heterosexual people now be like, you know,

791
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: I think I might be by or I think I

792
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: might be panned because that door is open, and I

793
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 1: think that's going to happen with gender, and I'm excited

794
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: for it happen with gender, and I hope it happens

795
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: with gender, because I don't think any of us is

796
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 1: holy man or holy woman. We're all some combination of

797
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: things from those those types, and then we just we

798
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: use words and pronouns to describe who we are, and

799
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: it's always an exact Really early on in transition, I

800
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: read something along line, so there's I don't I think

801
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: it's eight billion people. There's eight billion people on the planets.

802
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: There are eight billion genders, and like, it seems like

803
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: a lot, but yeah, genders a vastly personal experience. And

804
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: then we create these umbrellas to place them under. And

805
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: we only had two for a long time, and now

806
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: we have a bunch more, and that's good, that's great.

807
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: I think it is an exciting time. I think that

808
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: in the US especially, there is a dawning awareness of

809
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 1: the ways in which trans identities are real and intersect

810
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,399
Speaker 1: with other identities, be that, you know, womanhood, be that

811
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: racial identities. Um, there's a there's a much greater awareness

812
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 1: of the ways that trans women of color, particularly black

813
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: and Latino Latina, particularly black and Latino trans women are

814
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: hugely at danger of violent crime and like. But there

815
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: is now increasingly an awareness of that. Awareness is not action.

816
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: Awareness does not save the lives of any of those

817
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: black trans women, but hopefully it makes it easier and

818
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: better and more just for future generations, and hopefully that

819
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: life expectancy, you know, raises up to a level where

820
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: you know, the same as any of the rest of us,

821
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: get to lead long and fulfilling lives, and we have

822
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: things we need to work on in the US, where

823
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: it's far worse as the UK. The K has become

824
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: just a disaster area for trans people, the structural barriers

825
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 1: they face, the degree to which folks with very large

826
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: platforms like j. K. Rowland are making it harder for

827
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: people people exist there. I live in a country, the

828
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: United States, where there's a a extremely conservative Supreme Court

829
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: that is making the country demonstrably a worst place for equality.

830
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: And yet they enshrined trans rights basically, um, like the

831
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: very baseline level of trans right. So it's not crazy,

832
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: Like the least they could do. The least they could do.

833
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: They enshrined it because they were like, you know what,

834
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: the constitution forces us to do this, and like that

835
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: was piece was like, you know what, I don't want

836
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: to do this, but I kind of have to. So

837
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:50,479
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you Neial course for that. Um, that's

838
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: not happening in the UK. The UK is increasingly run

839
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: by transphobic people for transphobic people, and that's going to

840
00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: be a fight we have to win. Um, that's going

841
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: to be if I'm glad to undertake. But also I'm

842
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: not in the UK. I have trans woman friends in

843
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: the UK, and they are terrified, you know, especially now

844
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: that the UK is no longer in the EU and

845
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 1: they can't just DeCamp for like Germany or a country

846
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: that's better for trans rights. You know. Um, I'm going

847
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: to have to marry all of them so they can

848
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: move to the US, where we have the where we

849
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 1: have the you know what. I don't want to do this,

850
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: but I have to. While Emily was offline, her friends

851
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: took over her social media accounts so she wouldn't have

852
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: to deal with the barrage of threats and harassment. Her

853
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: friends used the opportunity to raise money for House of tulip,

854
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 1: an organization that supports trans and gender nonconforming folks experiencing

855
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: homelessness as a way of finding a little light amidst

856
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,399
Speaker 1: all the darkness. So what have the last forty eight

857
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: hours been like for you? The thing I found so

858
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: interesting is when I was harassed, it was about forty

859
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 1: eight hours of the worst I've ever been online, and

860
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: I posted a thread about how hard it had been

861
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: and just like how I couldn't sleep, and how I

862
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 1: faced death threats and how I just kind of wanted

863
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: to no longer exist, not in a self harmy way,

864
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 1: just like, oh, it's really hard to be alive right now.

865
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: So I posted that, and a friend of mine who

866
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: works at Twitter, and then people at Box Media who

867
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 1: have contacts at Twitter, both were like, I think I can.

868
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: I think I can find a way to take care

869
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 1: of this instantly. The harassment dropped, but probably and it

870
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: wasn't because it wasn't happening. When I go and look

871
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: for it, I can still find it, but I really

872
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: have to poke around because it's been hidden beneath so

873
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: many layers. And good, I'm glad it's hidden beneath so

874
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 1: many layers. That kind of hateful speech is I believe,

875
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, it exists within society, but doesn't have to

876
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: be on privately owned platforms. Like if somebody wants to

877
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 1: stand in the public square and yell about how trans

878
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: women shouldn't exist, I'm not going to stop them, but

879
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: they should not be given up bullhorn. You know, they

880
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: should not be given a bullhorn. A corporation should not

881
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: come down to that person and hand them with bullhorn

882
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: emblazoned with their their their symbol or their logo rather

883
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: and let them just shout into it. Like if they

884
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: want to shout in the park whatever. But what happens

885
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:19,280
Speaker 1: functionally is that online they you know, one person becomes

886
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: five people, sometimes literally, sometimes they set up five accounts.

887
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's just like they shout loud enough that

888
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,959
Speaker 1: other people start shouting with their shouting. Other people start

889
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: shouting with their shouting, and like, sometimes that's how good

890
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: ideas spread, but most of the time that's how bad

891
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: ideas spread. We know so much about how that takes

892
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: people from maybe have a couple of questions about transidentities

893
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: that they're not sure about, and it radicalizes them. It

894
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 1: pushes them further and further in the direction of transphobia.

895
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 1: And then there's somebody right there reaching out their hand

896
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: to be like, have you heard about anti semitism or

897
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 1: you know, have you heard about here are some of

898
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: the other other things you can do to make the

899
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: world the worst place. And that person's like, thank you,

900
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 1: you know, but now I'm going to try this with everybody.

901
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: You know. I don't think I don't think J. K

902
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: Rowling is suddenly going to you know, start um, I

903
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: don't think J. K Rowling is suddenly going to start

904
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 1: like hurling racist, racist slurs on Twitter. But this is

905
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: much like, like now she's much less likely to examine

906
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: the way she uses characters of color in her books,

907
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: which is almost never good, and you know, like like

908
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: that's just that's the the The prevalence of social media

909
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: makes it so easy to not self examined, to not

910
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: ask those questions of yourself, and just like find some

911
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: of those people with bullhorns and just be like, I

912
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: agree with you. So my experience with Twitter was I

913
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: think they could make the platform better if they really

914
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 1: wanted to. For all the people on Twitter accusing Emily

915
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: of wanting to crush free speech, she's actually really open

916
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: with free discussion and criticism. In fact, she says criticism

917
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: has been helpful for her own understanding of the world

918
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,320
Speaker 1: and her place in it. The nice thing about Twitter

919
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: is if I say a thing, and um, somebody doesn't

920
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: agree with that thing, who's from a different identity than

921
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: my own, and they push back against it, that's valid,

922
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, like they're I don't do everything perfectly. People

923
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: should criticize me. I'm not above criticism. People have criticized me,

924
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: and I've tried to make amends or edit the article

925
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: that they're you know, not happy with, or whatever. And

926
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 1: you know, it always feels kind of shitty. You know,

927
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: you're always like, I can't believe I screwed up. I

928
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: wish I hadn't screwed up, and you're kind of like

929
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: taking it on yourself. It's a natural human reaction. But

930
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: I've learned to not push that out, you know, I've

931
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: learned to be like I've learned to have the self

932
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 1: pity that's okay, that's a human thing, but also be like, Okay,

933
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: when you screw up, you screw up. A lot of

934
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: people don't learn that, and honestly, me learning it was

935
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 1: directly tied to come out as a trans woman, because

936
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: you kind of have to learn to just deal with

937
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: you realize all of the ways in which society is

938
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: telling eyes about you, and then you start to be like, well,

939
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: what are other lives I believe about people who aren't

940
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: like me? I think it is hard to escape the

941
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: lies that are told about groups that are not like you,

942
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 1: But it's even harder to escape the lies that you've

943
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: told about yourself. Um, I uh, spent years and years

944
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: and years and years no way I wanted to be

945
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: a girl, but thinking that that didn't make me trans.

946
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 1: I hadn't known from when I was a little kid. Well,

947
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: actually I had. I just had those memories forcibly taken

948
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: away from me. I know, I wasn't in tremendous pain

949
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: about my gender. Well actually I was. I was hiding

950
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: it from myself. I just felt like an automaton. And

951
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: then one day I read this interview with Daniel Lavery,

952
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: the trans guy writer, and he was like, I felt

953
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: my whole life like I was a brain in a jar,

954
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: and now I don't. I was like, I feel like

955
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: a brain in a jar. And I had known I

956
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: was trans. I thought there was like a like a

957
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: test I had to pass. I p s a T

958
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: for transmitting in probably elite programs. And right up until

959
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 1: I published my essay, I was convinced that somebody was

960
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: going to come and say you're not trans enough. And

961
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: then I published my essay and everyone was like, oh cool,

962
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 1: your name is Emily, great, we love it. And now

963
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: I have so many people and this is kind of

964
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 1: this is kind of a shitty thing to say, but

965
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: I hope people never stopped tout staying and I've forgotten

966
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: your dead name, and like, I'm sure they have um.

967
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: But that's also kind of great. It's also kind of

968
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: great to know that, like Emily makes more sense to

969
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 1: the world than my old self did. If you go

970
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 1: look up videos of me on YouTube, they're there. I'm

971
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: just kind of sitting there like a lump, just like

972
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: gazing inarticulately into the distance. And then somebody will ask

973
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,320
Speaker 1: me a question, and I'll speak up very you know whatever,

974
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: I'll speak up very smartly about whatever it is I'm

975
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 1: talking about, because my brain, you know, is still interested

976
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: in the same things and whatever. But there were so

977
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 1: many lives I've been told my whole life that I

978
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,879
Speaker 1: had internalized about what it meant to be trans, about

979
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: what it meant to be a woman, about what it

980
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: meant to be the intersection of those two identities of

981
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 1: trans woman, about what it meant to be, you know,

982
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,439
Speaker 1: a gay or straight or whatever, all of these sort

983
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: of spectrums that we fall on or fall within. And

984
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons that transphobia has run

985
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: so rampant right now. Uh So, it's because we're the

986
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 1: flavor dure which will pass in time. Um, I mean

987
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: never entirely structural inequality never goes away. But some of

988
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: it is also we symbolize of breaking down of that

989
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 1: order a little bit, we symbolize a breaking down of Oh,

990
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 1: if this binary isn't real, what other binaries aren't real?

991
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: What other systems are inequitable? What other systems can or

992
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: should even be burned down? How is the matrix real

993
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 1: and how is it false? What does it mean to

994
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: take a red pill? What does it mean to take

995
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: a blue pill? What are you comfortable with that you

996
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 1: shouldn't be comfortable with? And what are you uncomfortable about

997
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: that you should examine more? What does it mean to

998
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: live in a world that is not entirely real, that

999
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: is built for you by people who want to maintain

1000
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: their own power in the name of everything else and

1001
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 1: above all else? Why is that spider drone living in

1002
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: your stomach? Because that's creepy. Leave it to Emily to

1003
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: send us off with a matrix joke. To donate to

1004
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,720
Speaker 1: Health of Tulip, the nonprofit creating housing solutions for trans

1005
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: and gender nonconforming people in Louisiana, check the link in

1006
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: the episode description. We're taking your break for the holidays,

1007
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: but we'll be back with all new episodes bill soon.

1008
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: In the meantime, check out our March store at tangodi

1009
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 1: dot com, slash mark and please stay in touch. Got

1010
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech? I just

1011
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 1: want to say hi. You can be just at Hello

1012
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for

1013
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls

1014
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's

1015
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan

1016
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 1: Strickland as our executive producer, Terry Harrison as our producer

1017
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm

1018
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,359
Speaker 1: your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow,

1019
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts

1020
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast,

1021
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:22,760
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.