1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Body days. But Joseph's gotten more when we think about 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: how we would like to get back at people, don't 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: we Yeah, that's you know, you're insulted, you're humiliated, you're 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: harmed in some way, maybe something has been taken from you. This, 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: this idea of making things right is ancient. It goes 6 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: back even further than the Bible. The first time we 7 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: see mention of it is through the Babylonians, with of 8 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: course the Code of Hammurabi. And what it comes down 9 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: to is this idea of what's referred to as reciprocal justice, 10 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: hum the back and forth, if you will. Today we're 11 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: going to talk about a fellow who just died in 12 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: the death chamber in Alabama, and towards his end he 13 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: became a believer in Lex Talionis. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 14 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks. David. This case came across my 15 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: desk and I afforded it to you because I thought 16 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: that it was one of these cases that well, first off, 17 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: it's it's happened, or it happened. The actual murder that 18 00:01:55,320 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: is involved here actually happened not too far way from 19 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: where we are in the whole Grand scheme of things, 20 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: and it is arguably and even our governor, who goes 21 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: affectionately I think by the term of mem Governor k 22 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: Ivy actually made a statement in regards to it, and 23 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: just very briefly, just in a few words. Here this 24 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: is a direct quote from her when she was actually 25 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: asked to grant clemency in this case. And she's referring 26 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: to the victim, and she says, the murder of Tracy 27 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: Wilman was premeditated, gruesome and disturbing, and tonight the state 28 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: carried out the death sentence of James Osgoode. And this 29 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: is coming from a woman who the governor who had 30 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: signed to death warrant on someone else this year so far. 31 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: But she's also granted clemency to one person because she 32 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: said she was not convinced of their guilt. It's not like, 33 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: you know, she's going out and saying that all one 34 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty four individuals on Alabama's death row, I'm 35 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: going to make sure they're all put to death. She's 36 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,399 Speaker 1: doing a bit of reflection and examination. But I think 37 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: that this is one of those events, This's case in particular, 38 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: is one of those that again, here's that term that 39 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: you hear associated with courts lots of times. It's so 40 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: shocked the conscience that she felt like that, Yeah, it 41 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: was time. It was time to put this to an end. 42 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: You know, the thing about the death penalty being carried 43 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: out on somebody who has become a believer ends up 44 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: striking a chord with so many people. Joe, and I 45 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: have to be really honest with you right here. I 46 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: am a believer. I'm a follower of Jesus Christ, and 47 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: in that I know that to be absent the body 48 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: is to be present with the Lord. When my life 49 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: ends here, I begin a new journey into eternity. And 50 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 2: I've often wondered when it goes back to Carla Fae Tucker, 51 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: and she was involved in this horrible murder and she 52 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: was sentenced to death, and when her death sentence was 53 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 2: about to be carried out, there were protests there. I mean, 54 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 2: you had the seven hundred Club broadcasting from the prison 55 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: pretty much. I mean, it was crazy within the religious world. 56 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: And I kept thinking, you know, if you truly believe 57 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: what you claim to believe, I mean, you're going to paradise, 58 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: So you know, carry out the sentence. Let's move forward. 59 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 2: I don't mean to be flipping about it, but I 60 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: oftentimes think about the victim here. But I remember the 61 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 2: this Carla fay Tucker thing was huge and it really 62 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: hit me. 63 00:04:58,680 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, just did. 64 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: And there and you know, there's uh, you know, there's 65 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: the old adage and this is very pessimistic on my part, 66 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: but it's you know, the old flippant you used from flippant, 67 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: the flippant adage, uh that people people find Jesus in 68 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: prison and the you know, the comeback is, I didn't 69 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: know he was in prison, and so and you know, 70 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: the pessimist in you, you're always thinking that a scam 71 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: is being run on you, you know, to take you know, 72 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: to take you in or change the attitudes towards something. 73 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: But I got to tell you, Dave, in this case 74 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: with the perpetrator, and he admits to being the perpetrator, 75 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: he doesn't fight against it. Osborne. What's so striking about 76 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: this case. There's many things, but what's so striking about 77 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: it is that he took a view of this, or 78 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: rather Old Testament view of this, that he needed to 79 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: pay for what he had done to this poor woman, who, 80 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: by the way, I mean, you know, she the victim, 81 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: and it's a lot has been written about her. I 82 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: think she's just trying to get her life back. You know, 83 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: she was divorced. 84 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: I'm glad you were pointing that out about the victim 85 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 2: trying to get her life back, because that is the 86 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: running that's been running through this. She was born and 87 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: raised in Riverside, California, got married, it was a bad marriage, 88 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 2: but it did give her a daughter, and at forty 89 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 2: four years old, she's in Clinton, Alabama. Think about it. 90 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 2: That's a long track from Riverside, California to Clinton, Alabama. 91 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 2: It's about fifty miles north of Montgomery, about the same 92 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: distance south of Birmingham, all right, And she's in there 93 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: because her cousin has a job at this nursing home. 94 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 3: And hey, I'll go. You know how when we're trying 95 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 3: to start a new we still need friends and family. 96 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 3: And what happened. 97 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 2: So she ends up in Clanton near her cousin, Tanya 98 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 2: Van Dyke, and you know, they're about the same age 99 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 2: and they're working at the same nursing home. Look, she 100 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: started all over in her early forties. Here, she started 101 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: with nothing, Joe. I mean, the victim here started with 102 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: absolutely did not even have a car, all right, So 103 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: she takes this job at the nursing home. She's saving 104 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: every penny she actually buys a car. She's working and 105 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: getting the money together to go out and get her daughter. 106 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: I mean, she is really rebuilding her life. 107 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think her daughter was out in. 108 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 3: Patta, Lake Asu, Arizona. 109 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Lake Havasu, and she was, I don't know, trying 110 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: to do some kind of reclamation here. I think, you know, 111 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: with her life, just trying to put things together exactly. 112 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 3: And she was on that path. 113 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and you know who, Look, I'm not saying 114 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: anyone is deserving of any kind of violence, and there's 115 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: no way you can grade it. I mean, how many 116 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: people have we covered about the ends of their lives, 117 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: you know, on bodybacks where they didn't see it coming. 118 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: I mean it's and death is that way? Evil? Is 119 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: that way? You never? You never. I think that some 120 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: of us might say, you know, we can judge people 121 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: and say, well, you should have known that was going 122 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: to happen. Yeah, maybe so, But you know there are 123 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: those cases, Dave, where people I didn't know what was 124 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: going to happen. They just happen to be the wrong 125 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: place the wrong time and evil visited them, and you know, 126 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: you're struggling with your life, you're trying to get it 127 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: back on wheels, and suddenly I don't know this, This 128 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: person who has this and it's been described as a 129 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: very twisted fantasy, wants to act out with another perpetrator 130 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: on Tracy. Yep, you know. And that's what you know, 131 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: that's that's that's what's so absolutely horrible. This is not 132 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: like she's been taken out in the field and you know, 133 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: executed with a single shot to the back of the head. 134 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: You're talking sexual deviance coupled with torture, torture. You know. 135 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 2: It comes from a friend, a family member. It comes 136 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: from her cousin. That's the thing, Joe, How did they 137 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 2: get into her house? Okay, she's got living in a 138 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: trailer park, she got her single wife, she's got her 139 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,959 Speaker 2: life back together, as mentioned, and here comes Tanya Van Dyke, 140 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 2: her cousin. All Right, That's something I cannot hammer home 141 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: enough because we oftentimes will not open the door to 142 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: evil because you see evil for what it is and 143 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 2: you don't let it in. But in this case, evil 144 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 2: came to her as a cousin. She'd known her whole life. Yeah, 145 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 2: as a cousin who actually was a part of her 146 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: rebuilding her life. 147 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: From a nuts and bolts perspective. As far as investigations 148 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: and forensics go, we you know, I mentioned this all 149 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: the thoms because where we can't help ourselves when we're 150 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: instructing people no signs the fourth century or struggle, right, 151 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, that's one of the things that we talk about. 152 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: If we have like a death and a home, we're 153 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: going to look around doorways and windows to see if 154 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: anybody force their way in. And you know, Dave one 155 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 1: of the conclusions that we will arrive at, and it's 156 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: very broad. You can't apply this every single time. But 157 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: if you find a case that on its surface seems 158 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: like a home invasion, but yet the door has not 159 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: been kicked in, the wind has not been jimmied in 160 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: any way, there's this kind of broad assumption you start 161 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: with where you say, this person was probably known to 162 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: the individual that was domiciled here, so there's not some 163 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 1: kind of resistance or fight, you know, necessarily when all 164 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: of this takes place. Yeah, yes, like you know, and 165 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: it's kind of like you know, the old adage about 166 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: a vampire vampire is not going to uh, not that 167 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: they're real. However, there have been people that have claimed 168 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: to be vampires, and we're gonna have to cover some 169 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: of those cases that have occurred over the years of 170 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: people of drinking blood. But in the true sense of 171 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: you know, fictionalized vamp vampires. The old adage about the 172 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: vampire is not going to come into your house unless 173 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: you invite them. They have to be invited into your home, 174 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: crossing the threshold, if you will. And who sees this 175 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: kind of thing coming, Dave, I mean really, who sees 176 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: it coming? And and and can anticipate that when that 177 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: door swings open, that this kind of fog of evil 178 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: begins to seep in and the one thing that it's 179 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: looking for. 180 00:11:52,679 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 3: Is your life? 181 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: Can I tell you're right up front, Dave. I don't 182 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: like going to nursing homes. They've always given me the willies. 183 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: I don't like them. I know that they're a necessity 184 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: and some people don't have choice. They have to go 185 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: into these places. And not only I think is it 186 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: a difficult place to live, It's a very difficult place 187 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: to work. I've just think about what you're doing. You're 188 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: you're you're taking care of individuals who are people going 189 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: to nursing homes for a variety of reasons. It's not 190 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: they're not all aged, but the line's share of them are, 191 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: and you have to help and maintain at the most 192 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: basic levels everything bodily functions, checking on you know, blood 193 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: pressures and sugars and making sure that they're going to 194 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: go to the bathroom. I'm making sure that they eat, 195 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: you know, all those things, changing bed linens and rolling 196 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,479 Speaker 1: people in bed so they don't get bedsords. 197 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,599 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you just said that, Joe, because you realize, 198 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 2: do you realize what it's like to roll somebody over 199 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 2: that is very heavy and even though they are alive, 200 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 2: they are dead weight. 201 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 3: They're not helping. 202 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 2: My sister in law actually ended up on disability from 203 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 2: injuries suffered working in a nursing home because constantly working. 204 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 2: And I am again not complaining and not knocking them 205 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: at all, but that's what happened to her. I kept thinking, 206 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: how you know what's going on with her? And that's 207 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: what it was, because she was constantly having to maneuver 208 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: people who couldn't help themselves, and it took its toll. 209 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: But Yeah, there's also beyond the physical aspects of a 210 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 2: nursing home, there's also the emotional, psycho logical, and mental, 211 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: because you have people that are sometimes put in a 212 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 2: nursing home and this is the saddest thing, and they're 213 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: kind of kicked to the curb by family here. 214 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, they are. That does happen. And so you have 215 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: someone like Tracy that slips in and isn't it interesting? 216 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: You know, she's You've got people that are at the 217 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: end of their life maybe uh, they have no one 218 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: left in their life. And Tracy is kind of in 219 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: the same boat, with the exception here that she has 220 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: a cousin that's actually employed with her. And I often 221 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: wonder did the cousin help her get the job? And 222 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: you know, how how are they going to wind up 223 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: there together? 224 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 3: You know? 225 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: You come, you come here. It's a steady paycheck. You know, 226 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: you can get your life squared away, you know, re 227 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: establish yourself and we'll work on getting your daughter. And 228 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: you know, I think about that and think, wow, you know, 229 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: was that part of this game? Was this part of 230 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: you know? And I wonder if this is the overarching 231 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: theme here, Dave, did this man this man that we've 232 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: talked about James Osgood. Was this his plan? Had he 233 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: orchestrated this in some way by utilizing having the utility 234 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: literally of the cousin to draw someone in, you know, 235 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: almost like a moth to the flame, Dave. 236 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 3: I don't know. 237 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 2: They've referred to it as a fantasy played out. And 238 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: if it is that long game of evil, then you've 239 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: got somebody who actually recruited I'm talking about the cousin here, 240 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 2: Tanya van Dyke recruiting her cousin to come to Alabama 241 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: from California, Arizona, wherever she happened to be where she 242 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 2: had family on the West coast, getting her to come 243 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: all the way to Alabama to start her life over 244 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: where the only person she knows is Tanya, you know. 245 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 2: And if they did this for the purposes of eventually 246 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: living out this fantasy that led to the death of 247 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 2: I'm just that's like an evil at a whole new level. 248 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: That really is if Tracy Lynn Wilman was actually recruited 249 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: to come to Alabama when she's at the low part 250 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: of her life trying to rebuild it, and her cousin 251 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: reaches out and brings her here with the hope all 252 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: because Tanya Van Dyke and James Osgood nicknamed Taz, they 253 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: had a plan that would be an evil level I 254 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: can't even imagine. 255 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and you're talking about the long game here? 256 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: Had this you know, how much talk had there been 257 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: between both of these perpetrators. One of now, of course, 258 00:16:54,280 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: has has died in the death chamber, this cousin, I'll 259 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: go ahead and tell you right now, Kivy has. The 260 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: Governor of Alabama has stated that she's this this person 261 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: is in federal prison and she will, according to the 262 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: Governor of Alabama, she will never see the light of day. 263 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: Did I wonder if that was part of their long game? 264 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: You know, if they you know, they couldn't in no way, 265 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: I guess have predicted that it could have gone like this. 266 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: But how can you begin to dabble in this level 267 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: of evil and not understand that there will be a 268 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 1: consequence that you will pay. And of course, you know 269 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: this man Oscood, he actually did wind up paying with 270 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: his life. But David, I want to go back in 271 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: time and try to understand kind of the timeline of 272 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: what went down here relative to the this level of 273 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 1: brutality that we've been told and have you know, kind 274 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: of born witness to through all of the reports that 275 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: have come out about this case. That, by the way, 276 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: like many of these cases, and we've done other death 277 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 1: penalty cases before, Dave, remember our focus here is the victim. 278 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: The victim now, okay, And isn't it interesting? Like an 279 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: old dusty bottle of wine. It's forgotten, you know, somewhere somewhere, 280 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: far far away, And the only time you hear about 281 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: it again is when the individual that has been convicted 282 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: is going to go to the death chamber. And even 283 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: when that person is going to the death chamber, the 284 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: victim tracy in this case becomes almost like a you know, 285 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: it's like a secondary issue to all this. I think 286 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: it is important that we remember. 287 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 2: That's how when we began looking at this story. Many times, 288 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 2: when somebody is sent to death, the legal eagles come 289 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 2: out of everywhere, you know, to debate, to debate the 290 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: death penalty, and taking that out of the equation, let's 291 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: just get down to what actually transpired and what led 292 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 2: to the conviction and what led to the sentence. In 293 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 2: this particular case, you have, as I mentioned earlier, you've 294 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 2: got Tanya van Dyke who is cousins with the victim here, 295 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: and our victim, Tracy Linn Wilman, is going through a 296 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 2: time in her life where she's now divorced, her child 297 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 2: is not with her, and she is starting with nothing. 298 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 2: She's working at the same nursing home as her cousin. 299 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: And that's why I thought, certainly she had to have 300 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 2: been brought out. Hey, I've got a job for you. 301 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 2: Come out here and let's start over, you know. Come on, 302 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 2: And I mean I've done that. I've brought people from 303 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 2: other states to work for me because I knew them, 304 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 2: I trusted them, and come on, stay at my house 305 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 2: till you get you know, your feet under you. Anyway, 306 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 2: So we have Tracy Wilman arriving in Alabama working at 307 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: the nursing home with her cousin, but she has her 308 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 2: own place, got her a trailer in a trailer park. 309 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 2: And in this particular case, James Osgood and Tanya Van 310 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 2: Dyke are a couple. They're in a romantic relationship and 311 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: they spend the first part of the day with tracy 312 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: Linn Wilman just being together, you know, family and friends. 313 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 2: But during the course of the day, at some point 314 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: in time, inside Tracy Wilman's trailer. Tanya Van Dyke gets 315 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 2: her and they say coerced or talked her into going 316 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 2: back to the bedroom. Somehow, I don't know what exactly 317 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 2: that means, but somehow Tanya Van Dyke got Tracy to 318 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 2: go back towards her bedroom in the trailer, and Ozgood 319 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: was right behind her. Osgood has a gun and over 320 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: the next several hours, they being Van Dyke and Ozgood 321 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 2: took terms raping at gunpoint Tracy Linn Wilman, a woman 322 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: who is just getting her life back together, and here 323 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 2: we go holding a gun at her head, taking turns 324 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: holding the gun. By the way, they actually, we don't 325 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 2: need to go into the details. Y'all can figure this out. 326 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 2: You know what happens when people are into a sexual 327 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 2: fantasy where a man and a woman are taking turns 328 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 2: holding a gun and forcing their victim to be involved 329 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: in their entire sexual fantasy. At one point, Tracy's I 330 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 2: got to go to the bathroom. I need to use 331 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: the bathroom. Well, just so you know, when they were 332 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: cleaning up feces and blood was found smeared on the 333 00:21:52,359 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: victim's body, Joe. She was degraded beaten and, according to 334 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: the prosecution, was being sexually attacked while her throat was 335 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 2: cut and it wasn't cut once. There were several cutting 336 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: marks on her neck. How does that happen. 337 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: Joe, Well, you have I've seen cases with edged weapons 338 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: where an individual will take a knife. And this goes 339 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: back to a term that you and I have used 340 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: before of menacing, which I love that term, by the way, 341 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: as a descriptor. You know that you can actually kind 342 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,479 Speaker 1: of paint the picture and where you're placing a knife 343 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: against someone's skin and you're saying, if you don't do this, 344 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to cut you, okay. And so my suspicion 345 00:22:53,920 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 1: is is that these incised injuries that she sustained are 346 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: variable in depth. Okay, So you're going to have you'll 347 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: see these little upbraided We refer to them as curve 348 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: linear And it's a weird words. It's I've always I 349 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: always thought, you know. When I heard it for the 350 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: first time, and of course it came from a forensic pathologist, 351 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 1: I said, you know that, out of all the terms 352 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: that you guys use, this is one of the most 353 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: made up terms I've ever had, because it has features 354 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: of Okay, break it down for you. Being curved and 355 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: being linear, you know, like straight lines. 356 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 3: So does it seems possible? 357 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: No, it doesn't. However it is, and let me tell 358 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: you why. If you have let's just say someone takes 359 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: the leading edge of a knife, okay, maybe even the 360 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: tip of the knife and they slice someone. Well, the 361 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: biomechanical action of the wrist itself as that blade is 362 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: drug across the skin will give it almost an arcing 363 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: like appearance curva, and then it'll straighten out at the end. Linear. 364 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: Now also on a you know, if you think of 365 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: the neck as kind of a cylinder as well, that 366 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: those the surface of the neck is not like say 367 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: the surface of our chest. Right, so you've got this 368 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: cylindrical kind of shape that you're applying a straight age 369 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: blade to and depended and trust me, the victim, and 370 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: in this case is going to be tracy. She doesn't 371 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: want this, so she's going to be moving back and forth. 372 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: So you can kind of get these real weird presentations 373 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: of curve linear insults that are edged from generated from 374 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: an edge weapon. Now if she's resistant. If she's resistant, 375 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: now more force is applied, so you can go deeper okay, 376 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 1: as you press that blade, and a lot of it 377 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: depended upon how sharp that blade is as well, So 378 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: then you begin to drag the blade deeper as you're 379 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: applying more pressure. Now, one of the interesting things here 380 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: is that if I am not mistaken, Osgood makes the 381 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: comment during his trial or his admission, that she was 382 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: not dead yet, and so the idea that he's got 383 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: to finish her off, and while he's having sex with 384 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: her as well as this cousin that's there as well. 385 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: All the while she's struggling, Tracy is and those cuts 386 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: are getting deeper and deeper until they get in to 387 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: the vasculature of her neck. You know, all of these 388 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: all of these structures that exist in our necks, and 389 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm talking about you know, the croatids, jugulars, but you 390 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: know there are other more superficial, uh superficial vessels that 391 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: run through the neck too. You don't have to necessarily 392 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: score a hit on a crotid, which, by the way, 393 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: crotids are very deep. Okay, there the crowded arteries are buried. 394 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: You can do like a pressure. As a matter of fact, 395 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: it's if I was if you're taking someone's pulse it's 396 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: it's arguably one of the best spots to go to, 397 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, kind of adjacent there to the layer necks 398 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: and you press down you can feel your heart pumping 399 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: like that, you know, and that blade was laying over 400 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: the top of those vessels and over the trachea as well. 401 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: Now it has been said that Tracy's throat was actually 402 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: cut all the way through. And one of the terms 403 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: and you know this, uh, this term has been thrown 404 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: around for years and years, and sometimes it is a 405 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: literal assessment, and that is the term that the throat 406 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: has been cut from ear to ear. I've always thought, 407 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: Dave that that term probably a rose I would think 408 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: with people that were butchering animals because there's a utility 409 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: to it. One of the most horrible places I've ever 410 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: been in my life. I had to go to this place. 411 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: I'm not going to go into it, but it was 412 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: a case we were investigating. Had to go to a 413 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 1: slaughterhouse where they kill pigs and they would trust the 414 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: pigs up and they'd cut their throat and literally it's 415 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: a it is cutting from ear to ear. And the 416 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: reason they would do that they wanted to drain the blood, 417 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: you know, out of the hog. And I've often thought 418 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: that that that idea, that assessment of being cut from 419 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: ear to ear is something that probably came up butchery. 420 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: And you hear homicides many times, Dave, that where the 421 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: homicides are are described in terms of butchery. You know, 422 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: it's pure butchery. You know that we saw And then 423 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: I thought, well, maybe it came about as a result 424 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: of executions, but no, I don't think so. I think 425 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: that it came the term ear to ear probably came 426 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: about as a result of people that were working in 427 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: saw our houses and they knew how to dispatch an animal. 428 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 1: Just because you show up with a knife doesn't mean 429 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: you know how to use it. But in addition to 430 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,719 Speaker 1: throat cutting, Tracy presents with multiple stab wounds as well. 431 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: That's why there's there's a torture element here, Dave. You 432 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: know you've already run down the list of these horrific 433 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: things that this poor woman was subjected to, you know, 434 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: obviously sexual assault, the smearing of the body with bodily fluids, 435 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: and the terrorism itself. I've had to live when I 436 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: was little, you know, me and my mother. My mother 437 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: was a single mom, and we lived in a trailer. 438 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: One thing I can tell you about a single white 439 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: trailer you talk about being trapped is as you're headed back, 440 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: and generally the main bedroom is on the far end, 441 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: away from the kitchen and these things. And I know 442 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: you've been in if you haven't lived in one, which 443 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: you probably have at some point in time. When you 444 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: go down that hallway, that hallway is a narrow pass. 445 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: It almost looks like something you'd see on a ship. 446 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: So once they've got you bottled up in that hallway, 447 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: you ain't going nowhere, man, There's nowhere to hide. It's 448 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: not like you can go into the basement or escape 449 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: into the attic, or go jumping out of winda. That's 450 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: not the way it happens. So when they begin to 451 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: corral her and take her back there they were showing 452 00:29:54,120 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: up with bad intentions. Dave. I know you might find 453 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: it surprising, but you know, when you're a DestinE investigator, 454 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: you do have kind of a There are moments in 455 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: times where you'll have a visceral reaction. And I always 456 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: found with me it had to do with bedrooms for 457 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: some reason, I think, I don't know why, but when 458 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: you get that containment inside of a bedroom, and you 459 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: see like this uber level of violence that takes place 460 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: in this environment, and there's no you know how I 461 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: talked about like Tracy would have you know, she's forced 462 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: down the hallways, nowhere for you to go. For the 463 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: investigators that work, there's no place for you to go. 464 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: You can't. It's not like you can spin around and 465 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: catch a breath. When you're introduced into this environment and 466 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: you're working it and you're documenting it. It's like being 467 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: in a cell, it really is. And you're contained in 468 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: this bedroom. And I can tell you right now that 469 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: within this environment you're going to have you know, as 470 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: we've unfortunately mentioned, you're gonna have a lot of smells. 471 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: There's going to be feces, and that has not necessarily 472 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: been been fully explored and understood, but you know, just 473 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: just feces itself. One of two things happened, either through 474 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: humiliation she was defecated upon or this is her own 475 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: feces and probably probably presented because she was being raped. 476 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: And I'm not going to go too far down that road, 477 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: but you can kind of use your imagination. And then 478 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: the smearing of the blood that's everywhere, So you're contained 479 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: with this within this environment of the whole smell of 480 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: feces combined with the metallic, sickly sweet smell of blood, 481 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: and then you're seeing all of these any remnant that's 482 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: left behind on mattresses, kind of where are the bed linens? 483 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: And here wear are her clothes? You want to make 484 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: sure that you handle those very carefully, because if she 485 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: was clothed, first off, does she still have clothing on 486 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: or was it ripped from her? And that's one of 487 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: the things you want to try to understand and contextualize it, 488 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: and you're having to do it within this very confined space. 489 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 3: I don't want. 490 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: Confined spaces, and trailers in and of themselves are very 491 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: difficult to work in. 492 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 2: When police are looking over a scene and there is 493 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 2: a mess, I mean, there's no way around this. This 494 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 2: is a scene that has body fluid blood everywhere. And 495 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 2: I guess how much how much are police officers trained 496 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 2: when they show up at a crime scene to not 497 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: mess with everything else that's going on, so that because 498 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 2: you have a person who is dead, they're gone, What 499 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 2: is the first step that's taken by an officer to 500 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 2: prevent that crime scene from getting messed up? 501 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: If it's a seasoned officer, if there's anybody else in 502 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: there after the EMTs have done their thing, which in 503 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: this case there would not have been much of a 504 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: need for an EMT. If the police walks in and 505 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: you've got early signs of decomposition, the police will, particularly 506 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: the uniform officer if they are seasoned, we'll check for 507 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: a pulse just to say they did it, and then 508 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: they're going to have everybody back out. Now, you know 509 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: how I talked about the negative side of having to 510 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: work in a confined space. The upside when you're in 511 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: a structure like this is that you you've got containment 512 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: and also you're going to have it will only accommodate 513 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: a certain number of people, you know, because one of 514 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: one of the most disdainful things in the world are 515 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: look you lose and look. It's not just the general public. 516 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,919 Speaker 1: You know, people are kind of high and mighty when 517 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 1: you know they and I've heard cops behind mighty you 518 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: know where they'll say, well, I was driving. You know, 519 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: these people are driving down the road and they're slowing down, 520 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: they're looking at the accident. Cops do that too, you know. 521 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: Don't don't fool yourself here, all right, there's nothing in 522 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: that bedroom that's some kind of outside person that might 523 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: happen to have a badge needs to see. If they're 524 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: not part of that team and you're working in a 525 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: confined space, you're also going to have the opportunity to 526 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: keep all of the evidence within that environment. If if 527 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: the first officer that arrives identifies the need to shut 528 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: it down and to back everybody out, that's the key. 529 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: That's why, in my opinion, I think that uniform officers 530 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: beat officers are probably I think probably one of the 531 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: most key elements in any kind of death investigation because 532 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: what they do at the beginning is going to freeze 533 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: that moment in time. And you know, look, there's a 534 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: lot of fragile evidence in here. I know that it's 535 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 1: quite disgusting, you know these things that we've mentioned, Dave, 536 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 1: but you know you can have and there's a lot 537 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: of obviously because this is a sexual attack, there's a 538 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: lot of contact trace in this environment. Things that are 539 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:44,439 Speaker 1: so fragile that just hair transfers that are there. Back 540 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: in twenty ten when this case took place, not so 541 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: much would we have thought, I don't think about touch 542 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: DNA at that point. A matter of fact, I can 543 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: almost guarantee that that would not have been necessarily on 544 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: the radar so much. But I'm just thinking about if 545 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: there is this much blood that scene, you can actually 546 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: get handprints that are left behind that are not necessarily 547 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: going to be associated with a victim because there's a 548 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: lot of manipulation in the body. Think about this, Tracy 549 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: is being subjected to a sexual attack, not at the 550 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: hand of just one person, but at the hands of 551 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: two people. So now you have an opportunity if they 552 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: have touched the blood, which I don't see how you 553 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: can avoid not touching it, and you transfer that onto 554 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: the surfaces of say, for instance, the sheets, the wall, 555 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: maybe even onto Tracy's own body as you're trying to 556 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,439 Speaker 1: manipulate her to get her to do what you want 557 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,919 Speaker 1: her to do. We've got a male and a female perpetrator, Well, 558 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: it would stand to reason the female perpetrator's handprint would 559 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,959 Speaker 1: be smaller than the male, right, So that's a very 560 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: distinctive thing that we're looking at there that goes to 561 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: specific identity. So all of these things have to be 562 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: calculated relative to protection of the scene. But on the 563 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: more human side of it, you know, when these police 564 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: officers in Clanton, Alabama walked into this trailer dayte, I 565 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: can tell you I don't think that they were expecting 566 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: to see what they saw. 567 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 2: You know, this was a standard well I say standard 568 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 2: where when Tracy didn't show up for work, her employer, 569 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 2: you know, called around and said, hey, can we get 570 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 2: a welfare check? I mean, that's how many times are 571 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 2: we starting stories with that? And that's what happened here, 572 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 2: that she didn't show up for work. And that's why 573 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 2: I'm thinking. You go and knock on the door, you 574 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 2: don't see any forced entry, you don't see any signs 575 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 2: of anything. When they finally did get in there to her, 576 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 2: they found obviously a horrific mess. I'm a little taken 577 00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 2: aback by this fantasy idea, which means the course of 578 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 2: interviews with police, they were given an entire story by 579 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 2: Osgood and Van Dyke that this is just as despicable 580 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,760 Speaker 2: as it gets. Joe, that's why we had an actual 581 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 2: capital you know, we've got sentence to death here, so 582 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 2: think about that. And by the way, it's a very 583 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 2: short term time sure time rather in terms of carrying 584 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 2: out the sentence on a death sentence. 585 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: I would be shocked. I was shocked by that, Dave. 586 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: I'm glad. I'm so glad you brought that up, because 587 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: most of the time, if you've got somebody that is 588 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 1: on death row, these cases are going to go out 589 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 1: to infinity, you know, as far as waiting. If you're 590 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 1: the family member of a victim and you you're wanting 591 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 1: lex talian us here, I can't say that every family 592 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: desires that. However, if it would seem it would seem 593 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: in terms of long like it's never going to come. 594 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 1: And in this case we're talking, we're twenty twenty five. Obviously, now, 595 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: I was shocked that when people might be actually shocked 596 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: at what I'm about to say, I'm shocked by the 597 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: fact that they they actually did this so soon compared 598 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: to a lot of other cases that are out there, 599 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:24,760 Speaker 1: you know, like I mentioned, I think there's like roughly 600 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty five people on death row in 601 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: the state of Alabama. He's he's just one, and a 602 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: lot of it had to do with the fact that 603 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: he didn't want to fight anymore. As a matter of fact, 604 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: I'm done, Yeah, he fired, he was. I think that 605 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: it was almost the name of the order of the 606 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:49,320 Speaker 1: ACLU they were providing the attorneys for him, and the 607 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: acl you he fired, He fired his acl you appointed attorney. 608 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: You know, He's like, I'm I'm over it. I don't 609 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: want to do this any longer. He said that he 610 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: has come to an understanding of the idea of an 611 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: eye for an eye and that he's ready to pay 612 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 1: the price. But one little aside here, Dave Osgood actually 613 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: stated that since since the murder torture, let's put it 614 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: that way, the torture and murder of Tracy back in 615 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:32,359 Speaker 1: twenty ten, he he has never spoken her name, never 616 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 1: spoken her name, and he stated that he felt as 617 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: though that it would be disrespectful to say her name. 618 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: And actually the last thing that he said before he 619 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:51,720 Speaker 1: was the process of lethal injection took place is I'm sorry, Tracy. 620 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: I'm sorry Tracy. Now, you know that's no recompense for 621 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: a life that's been snuffed out. You know, her, her 622 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: child has grown up without her, was already in a 623 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: bad situation, you know, being away from her mama, that 624 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:14,280 Speaker 1: far away and everything that is, you know, the family. 625 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: She came to Alabama probably hoping that you know, people 626 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,839 Speaker 1: could help her here and wanted to be wanted and 627 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 1: one of the greatest betrayals that anyone could could suffer through. 628 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: Because you know, we hear a lot about people talking 629 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: about what's the term that you hear folks saying about 630 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: women where they're sexualized and they're put in magazines and 631 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: and all these sorts of things. And uh, this was objectification. 632 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: This is the worst, the worst that you can imagine 633 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: as far as objectification of a woman. Uh, she is 634 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: truly you know when you break that word down, the 635 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: root is object right, So object reduces humanity to me, 636 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: it does at least it's like you take away the humanity, 637 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: the total and complete humanity and human value of an 638 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: individual in order to use her for the purposes of 639 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: this evil desire that you have the sick, twisted fantasy, 640 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: which this has been described as. 641 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 2: And Joe, yeah, once they've gotten past the conviction, the 642 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 2: crime and everything else, and now we've got to carry 643 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 2: out the sentence. You and I covered the the death 644 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 2: sentence of another inmate in Alabama, where lethal injection was 645 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 2: not used. They use a different form of carrying out 646 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 2: the sentence. Was this death carried out in the same 647 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 2: way as our previous one. 648 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 3: Or was this one back to lethal injection? 649 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: What happened in Alabama. You've now got three choices. It's 650 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 1: weird to hear that someone has choices, and this is 651 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: kind of this is not Look, this is not simply 652 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: an Alabama. You've got a lot of these states now 653 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,400 Speaker 1: that are looking at other methodologies because, let's face it, 654 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:09,239 Speaker 1: lethal injection has been problematic, you know, for years and 655 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: years now because pharmaceutical companies don't want to provide the drugs. 656 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: They're always having to change the formula. And how are 657 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,399 Speaker 1: you going to do an experiment to try to understand, 658 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: you know, what works best and what is I'm doing 659 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,480 Speaker 1: air quotes right now, what is in fact the most 660 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: humane way to do it? But in Alabama, you know, 661 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:36,760 Speaker 1: the electric chair is still on the table. You've got 662 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: lethal injection. And of course what you were just referring 663 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 1: to is nitrogen hypoxia, which they you know, we covered 664 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 1: the first case in America that had ever been carried out, 665 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: and that was here in Alabama. Now there's been a 666 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: matter of fact, there was one earlier in the year 667 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: here in Alabama where another subject that we didn't cover 668 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 1: that case, but he met his end through nitrogen hypoxia. 669 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 1: For some reason, Osgood chose over hypoxia. He chose to 670 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,280 Speaker 1: go with the lethal injection. And for you know, most 671 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 1: most of these states, they have a they have a 672 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: protocol that well you have to have it and you 673 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: know what the drug cocktail is going to be. So 674 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 1: in Alabama there's like a three a three drug administration 675 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 1: where you have one drug that is that is utilized 676 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: and it's utilized therapeutically for many people for anti anxiety, 677 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: given in large enough doses. It's used as an adjunct 678 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 1: to anesthesia where this drug in particular is administered and 679 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 1: it it gives you this kind of pharmaceutical induced amnesia 680 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,839 Speaker 1: where you can't remember surgery. Okay, you can't remember that 681 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: that happened. And once they get you in that sedated state, 682 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:17,920 Speaker 1: there'll be another another drug that is administered where it 683 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: is going to begin to compromise your ability to breathe 684 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,319 Speaker 1: and it's like a paralytic, which is absolutely horrific if 685 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: you're asking me where, but you're not going to have 686 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: an awareness of it because the sedative has been given 687 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: prior to that. And then finally it's going to be 688 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: finished off with potassium chloride and if you give people 689 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 1: a large enough dose of potassium chloride, it it screws 690 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,239 Speaker 1: up with it screws up the conduction in your heart, 691 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 1: and essentially you go in to a state where you're 692 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,840 Speaker 1: in cardiac arrest and you die. And that's that's the 693 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: process that the individual goes through. And if I'm not mistaken, 694 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:08,319 Speaker 1: it was the execution itself was rather uneventful. I think, Dave, 695 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 1: there was not like there was not some grandiose kind 696 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: of thing that was going on with this, or you know, 697 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 1: there was not you know, these huge uh you know, 698 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,240 Speaker 1: shouting and screaming and everything. I think that Osgood had 699 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: set his mind to this course and this is this 700 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:26,880 Speaker 1: is just the way things were going to be. 701 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 3: He did. 702 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,040 Speaker 2: He said, uh, I'm a paraphrase. He said, a couple 703 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,319 Speaker 2: of years ago, I really messed up. This is it. 704 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,320 Speaker 2: I don't want any no pro he said. If you protest, 705 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 2: didn't the death penalty, do not use my name age 706 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 2: on your platform. So he was very direct on this. 707 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 2: But Joe, I'm wondering, and I think a lot of 708 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,879 Speaker 2: people wanted the same thing. When we debate, I say, 709 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 2: we in the cultural debate, you know, h yeah, right, 710 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:55,879 Speaker 2: that why not decide we're going to this person has 711 00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 2: been sentenced to death, we're going to carry it out. 712 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,960 Speaker 2: How about use propofol? Put the person to sleep, and 713 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,879 Speaker 2: then how you kill them? Is imity is not even 714 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 2: Germaine to the discussion. Because they're out, they're under, they're 715 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,479 Speaker 2: a sleep, they're not They will not come back until 716 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,800 Speaker 2: you remove the propofol. So don't remove it, keep it 717 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 2: plugged up, keep it dripping. Boom, just use the guillotine. 718 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,880 Speaker 1: I mean that sleep, I think, yeah, boom, Yeah, I 719 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,880 Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. But the legal eagles out there, 720 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: they when they argue this, most of the time they 721 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: come from the perspective of of of it's the anxiety 722 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:40,359 Speaker 1: leading up to knowing the drug is coming, and this 723 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 1: makes it cruel for them they'll use They'll say that 724 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:51,720 Speaker 1: that defines cruel and unusual. And you know my fallback 725 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:56,880 Speaker 1: position has always been relative to two victims. Is that. Yeah, 726 00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,600 Speaker 1: you might say that's cruel and unusual. I bet I 727 00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: can try that, I bet I can tell you. Let 728 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,840 Speaker 1: me describe to you what happened to the likes of Tracy. 729 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,879 Speaker 1: You know what she went through, you know, back there 730 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,560 Speaker 1: in that tiny little bedroom where she probably you know, 731 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:18,759 Speaker 1: finally slept, maybe with some level of peace once she 732 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,720 Speaker 1: began to sit down the roots. She had a job, 733 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,799 Speaker 1: she had thoughts of her daughter. She was proud of 734 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,279 Speaker 1: a car that she was able to purchase. She had 735 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: money in her pocket. Sun was rising again for but unfortunately, 736 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:47,160 Speaker 1: monsters arrived on her doorstep. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 737 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,240 Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks.