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Speaker 1: The volume.

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Speaker 2: Well, John Middlecoff's a busy guy, and John Middlecoff deserves

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Speaker 2: an occasional cocktail and sitting by the pool because living

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Speaker 2: in Arizona, he doesn't get any of those. So Danny parkins,

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Speaker 2: our guy is joining us. So one of the topics

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Speaker 2: of the week has been the tanking in the NBA.

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Speaker 2: So I think sometimes you have to take a telescope

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Speaker 2: and flip it. I am pro tanking because here's what

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Speaker 2: we both would agree on. What's happening in America. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot more options. There's a lot of streaming services,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot to watch tiktoks and platforms. We're a

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Speaker 2: distracted nation, and so what I'm about to say, everybody knows.

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Speaker 2: Over the last ten years, events do really well. Baseball

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Speaker 2: found this out when they started doing, you know, baseball

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Speaker 2: games in a cornfield, baseball games in Europe, home run

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Speaker 2: Derby World Series actually.

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Speaker 3: Do really well. It's that minutia.

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Speaker 2: It's the regular season that hockey, NBA and baseball can struggle.

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Speaker 2: That's why I believe dynasties. I believe the opposite of

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Speaker 2: what Adam Silver does. Football doesn't matter. College and pro

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Speaker 2: football don't matter. It's once a week. World Cup doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: Every four years, Olympics don't matter. But in Monday through

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Speaker 2: Friday sports long regular season. Now, the David Stern approach

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Speaker 2: works better because a distracted nation isn't tuning in parody.

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Speaker 2: They're not going to tune in parody. So I want,

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Speaker 2: I want.

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Speaker 3: That's my first take.

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Speaker 2: My second take is what makes the NFL great is

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Speaker 2: Mike Rabel and the Patriots can spend two hundred and

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Speaker 2: seventy million and go from unwatchable to the super Bowl. Now,

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Speaker 2: they got some breaks along the way, and they weren't

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Speaker 2: as good as Seattle. You can't do that in the NBA.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know with the Bulls, you can't. You

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Speaker 2: can't trade people. I mean, if a franchise is like, listen,

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Speaker 2: we want to get rid of an aging star, and

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Speaker 2: the Bulls are like, ooh, love to but they're young.

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Speaker 3: They don't. They'd have to. They wouldn't know how.

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Speaker 2: To cobble together enough players or bring in a third

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Speaker 2: team to get it done. And so the only way

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Speaker 2: to go from bad to good.

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Speaker 3: Is the Spurs.

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Speaker 2: You tank and get Stefan Castle, you tank and get Wemby.

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Speaker 2: Then you make another because they're very inexpensive. For the

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Speaker 2: first several years, you make another couple moves to get

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Speaker 2: your you know, you're a darn fox or you and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden you look up and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we go from like twenty four wins to thirty eight

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Speaker 2: to fifty six. And so I don't know if you

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Speaker 2: can solve tanking outside of taking away draft picks, which

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Speaker 2: seems really punitive since there's only two rounds, and if

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Speaker 2: you're going to make trading impossible, how else do you go.

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Speaker 2: I think utahs on the precipice of being very interesting

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Speaker 2: in the next year, how they've been awful three years.

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Speaker 2: So I guess my take is dynasties. We could start

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Speaker 2: with either one. Dynasties actually make much more sense now

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Speaker 2: than they did in the seventies when we were less distracted.

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Speaker 2: And I'm okay with tanking if the rules currently disallow

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Speaker 2: big sweeping trades for the Wizards to become OKAC within

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Speaker 2: two years, which you can't do that now.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So, as always, there's there's a lot there. Well,

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Speaker 3: let's let's park the dynasty thing for maybe a little

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Speaker 3: bit later. We've talked about that a lot in baseball,

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Speaker 3: and like, I agree that the power of dynasties that

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Speaker 3: the Chiefs became the team that all of the NFL

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Speaker 3: network executives want and it replaced the Cowboys because they

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Speaker 3: are a dynasty. So you and I are an agreement,

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Speaker 3: and I think the data backs it up as fact,

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Speaker 3: like dynasties work. The trade point is an interesting one

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Speaker 3: because we actually just saw at this deadline, like Washington

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Speaker 3: now has Trey Young and Anthony Davis, Like some of

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Speaker 3: the free agent rules have actually made it where it's

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Speaker 3: easier for you to retain your guys with you know,

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Speaker 3: the bird rights and you can go over the cap

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Speaker 3: to sign your own players and things like that. That, Like,

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Speaker 3: I think that free agent, like good players leaving in

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Speaker 3: free agency is gonna is gonna decrease, which to your point,

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Speaker 3: makes the draft even more important. But the tanking thing,

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Speaker 3: I don't know how you can say you're okay with

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Speaker 3: what Utah is doing. This is it's so we're recording

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Speaker 3: this the night of the All Star Game. They are

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Speaker 3: sitting players in the fourth quarter of games. That it is.

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Speaker 3: It is anti competition, it is anti sport, like the

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Speaker 3: is it the biggest deal in the world are there.

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Speaker 3: I do think there are bigger problems with the NBA,

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Speaker 3: and I'd love to do like a global conversation about

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Speaker 3: all of it with you, But like I don't know

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Speaker 3: how you can say, because like in this case, it's

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Speaker 3: Utah against Orlando, Utah against Miami and nobody really cares.

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Speaker 3: But what if it was a team that we did

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Speaker 3: care about? And I would imagine that the fifteen thousand

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Speaker 3: fans that bought tickets to those games would would care

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Speaker 3: about it. It is a these are sports man, it's

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Speaker 3: an entertainment product. Well, you can't have the games mean nothing,

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Speaker 3: Well have to meet something.

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Speaker 2: But I think the Utah fans, who almost have a

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Speaker 2: collegiate feel because it's a smaller NBA market, I think

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Speaker 2: they're in on it. I think they know it. I

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Speaker 2: don't think I think they go to the games and

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Speaker 2: enjoy it with their friends. But if you ask them

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Speaker 2: you can get the number two pick or the number fourteen,

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Speaker 2: they would take the number two. So you can play,

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Speaker 2: So you can play the young guys, compete as much

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Speaker 2: as you can with the young guys. But I mean,

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Speaker 2: Utah has been bad for several years. What's another twelve

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Speaker 2: games or twenty six games at the end of the year.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I you could. I mean again, it's only

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Speaker 3: a two.

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Speaker 2: Round draft, so people say we're gonna take We're gonna

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Speaker 2: take draft picks away Spygate and deflate gate. You only

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Speaker 2: took one pick. If you took fifty percent of people's picks, Okay,

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Speaker 2: we're taking a first round pick, well, then that bad

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Speaker 2: team has even less chance.

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Speaker 3: To get good. But don't you think you want like

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Speaker 3: I want to say. I want to say this before

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Speaker 3: we get anything more into it, because I've heard a

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Speaker 3: lot of the conversation over the last week because it

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Speaker 3: seems like what happens in our business is we are

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Speaker 3: so football centric, and then the Super Bowl ends and

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Speaker 3: we deconstruct it for a day or two, and then

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Speaker 3: we immediately pivot to the NBA and we kind of

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Speaker 3: parachute in and we're like problems with the NBA, whether

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Speaker 3: it's tanking, three point shooting, injuries, load management, like whatever

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Speaker 3: the issue of the day is. This year, because of

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Speaker 3: the Utah example, literally sitting players unapologetically in the fourth

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Speaker 3: quarter before the All Star break, we all seized on

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Speaker 3: the tanking thing. You and I have some disagreements here

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Speaker 3: one thing I do want to say, though, amainst all

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Speaker 3: the complaining the talent is so unbelievable. Yes, like the

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Speaker 3: league has so many things going for it. Yeah, like

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Speaker 3: Katie and Steph and Lebron not only are still here,

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Speaker 3: they're all still awesome. They are ambassadors of the sport.

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Speaker 3: They are advocates for the sport. They love hoopin. They're

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Speaker 3: still great players on competitive varying degrees of competitive teams.

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Speaker 3: Like you know, I don't know that. I don't think

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Speaker 3: the Lakers can win a title. I don't think that

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Speaker 3: the Warriors can win a title. But they we are

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Speaker 3: going to see those guys play basketball beyond the regular

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Speaker 3: season into their late thirties or, in Lebron's case, early forties.

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Speaker 3: It's a miracle. They're unbelievably talented. And I think one

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Speaker 3: of the biggest problems with the sport is actually counterintuitive,

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Speaker 3: and it's that the players have gotten too good. I

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Speaker 3: think they have broken the game. They're so good at

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Speaker 3: shooting threes that it is so easy for them to

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Speaker 3: do it that the sport has become a jump shooting contest.

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Speaker 3: Fifty three, sixty three, seventy three is a game, and

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Speaker 3: it makes it less exciting, yes, because I like to

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Speaker 3: see them done can fly and do the things that

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Speaker 3: I can't. Stunk, I can hit a three point shot. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So it's and then that has led to you've got

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Speaker 3: to defend all over the place more right, So they

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Speaker 3: got to run more guys are rupturing their achilles, and

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Speaker 3: then they were tired. So they have to say you

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Speaker 3: and ize it's all connected together. Okay, So you and

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Speaker 3: I agree.

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Speaker 2: I said this last week twice every year at this time,

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Speaker 2: we bang on the NBA and I and I said,

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Speaker 2: playoffs will start. I'll totally be engaged. The game will

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Speaker 2: become much more of a mid rain game than a

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Speaker 2: three point game, because it becomes get a stop, get

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Speaker 2: a basket in close games late, you just you get

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Speaker 2: sometimes you just need a basket. That's why Kawhi Leonard

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Speaker 2: is an irrelevant regular season player, but he's been such

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Speaker 2: a great postseason player because he gets stops and he

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Speaker 2: gets twos.

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Speaker 3: So Butler, that's the first thing.

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Speaker 2: So I think, I I don't know if I said

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Speaker 2: this to you, but I said it to somebody.

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Speaker 3: Of all.

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Speaker 2: I just I'm watching right now, a great documentary. I'm

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Speaker 2: through the first two episode. There's four. It's called Soul Power.

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Speaker 2: It is a four part documentary on the ABA. It

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Speaker 2: is fantastic. I mean, I don't know where they got

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Speaker 2: the video. So much of it I knew because I

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Speaker 2: started watching sports in late nineteen seventy one. That's the

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Speaker 2: time Spencer Haywood and the Doctor J. That's why Spencer

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Speaker 2: Haywod and Doctor J are my first two basketball memories

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Speaker 2: because I was like, I was like seven years old

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Speaker 2: and I remember, you know, seeing Doctor J, who was

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Speaker 2: my first favorite basketball player.

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Speaker 3: So they have video.

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Speaker 2: Apparently the ABA, I didn't know this had a huge

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Speaker 2: fight problem. I don't know where they got the video.

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Speaker 2: There must be twenty pieces of video of fistfights. Like

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Speaker 2: it's hockey without the helmets. It's just Haymakers guys laying

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Speaker 2: on the floor. It's so but that's where the three

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Speaker 2: point shot came from. But my point has always been, Danny,

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Speaker 2: that basketball was the sport of artistry and culture and

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Speaker 2: sometimes politics, starting with Spencer Haywood going to the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 3: That was the.

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Speaker 2: NFL was corporate baseball was the summer sport. You could

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Speaker 2: go have a beer, you didn't care who won, right

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Speaker 2: unless you were a diehard.

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Speaker 3: Basketball was the cool sport.

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Speaker 4: It was the.

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Speaker 2: Afroze, it was the dunking. That's why the ABA became

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Speaker 2: a threat to the NBA. The NBA was overcoached. It

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Speaker 2: was like college basketball. It was overcoached, it was rigid.

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Speaker 2: There was limitations, sadly on how many African American players

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Speaker 2: can play in the team. And the ABA is like

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Speaker 2: flavor and dunking and threes and tricolored ball, and it

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Speaker 2: was like, well, that's what we like. Here's the problem

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Speaker 2: with the three. The three has reduced dominant centers with

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Speaker 2: quirky games, mid range games. If Michael Jordan played today,

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Speaker 2: he'd shoot thirteen threes a game. Do you outside of

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Speaker 2: the Blazer Finals, do you ever remember seeing him shoot

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Speaker 2: a three that mattered in a game or a highlight.

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Speaker 3: We've seen no.

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Speaker 2: So I've argued this, we have taken all these art

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Speaker 2: It's the one sport of art, it's the artist resport,

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Speaker 2: and we've taken the artistry out of it. Now, outside

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Speaker 2: of Steph whose game is fundamentally based on the three,

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Speaker 2: we've taken Aunt Edwards Wemby just shoot a bunch of threes.

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Speaker 2: Ant is the closest thing to MJ we've had.

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Speaker 3: If you took.

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Speaker 2: Kawi's hand size and Ant, you kind of have MJ.

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Speaker 2: And I mean Ant's just he shoots eleven ten to

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Speaker 2: nine threes. Wemby too many threes. So if you took

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Speaker 2: the three point line in the bench, you did not

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Speaker 2: have to defend the corner. You could more easily defend

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Speaker 2: the arch three. Those players would move inside. What happens

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Speaker 2: when you have a mid range game more physicality. Guys

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Speaker 2: aren't chasing people down, they're defending them ass on ass

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Speaker 2: hip on hip, shoulder on shoulder. What do we like

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Speaker 2: about the NBA playoffs? It's physical, It's like men battling.

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Speaker 2: Fans get into it. So I think the arc, the

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Speaker 2: three point shot into the bench reduces all these soft

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Speaker 2: these these injuries people are complaining about. Where the pace

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Speaker 2: is so fast, centers are running to the corner. It

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Speaker 2: would become a more physical game. But I think malice

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Speaker 2: in the palace terrifies the league. And there's something about

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Speaker 2: making the game less physical for a big portion of

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Speaker 2: the regular season. And I agree with you, it's hard

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Speaker 2: and repetitive to watch. Yeah, to me, that is so

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Speaker 2: there's there's the health of the players. There's the tanking,

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Speaker 2: there is load management, which is caught up in both

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Speaker 2: of them. But to me, the biggest issue is the

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Speaker 2: is the style of play.

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Speaker 3: But again, I want to every time I say it,

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Speaker 3: like I do want to say, I love the game,

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Speaker 3: I respect their talent, and the playoffs are amazing. What

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Speaker 3: bothers me a little bit. I think the end season

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Speaker 3: tournament was a really interesting idea. We've talked about it before,

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Speaker 3: taken from the Premier League, and it's guys clearly play harder.

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Speaker 3: There's a trophy on the line, it means something, and

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Speaker 3: I think it will only grow in its relevance here.

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Speaker 3: But what I wish they would have done with it

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Speaker 3: is it I wish that the mid season the nd

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Speaker 3: season tournament, instead of a different court, we had different

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Speaker 3: rules so we could experiment with some of this stuff. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 3: I don't hundred I don't one hundred percent know if

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Speaker 3: what you just said is correct about eliminating the corner

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Speaker 3: three or if like we would just see a lot

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Speaker 3: more like eighteen foot jumper. Yeah, I don't know. I

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Speaker 3: think you're right, but I don't know. So I want

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Speaker 3: to see it, Like, you know what I mean, like,

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Speaker 3: I want to see, would it be better if we

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Speaker 3: had a trapezoidal uh like international style lane instead of

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Speaker 3: too vertical to force uh like more crashing of the

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Speaker 3: boards and put backs and things like that, like more

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Speaker 3: offensive rebounds. Like I'm I would be very interested in

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Speaker 3: like them Baseball did it. Yeah, But what people miss

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Speaker 3: about what Baseball did. People give Rob Manford a lot

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Speaker 3: of credit, and that's like mostly right. But Rob Manford

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Speaker 3: employed theo Epstein. Theo Epstein's a genius and he really

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Speaker 3: cares about the game. And when theo was running the

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Speaker 3: Red Sox and the Cubs, his whole thing was like,

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Speaker 3: how do I exploit the rules to win? It wasn't

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Speaker 3: in the best interest of the sport to strike out more,

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Speaker 3: walk more, hit more homews. It's boring. But as soon

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Speaker 3: as he got hired by Major League Baseball as a consultant,

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Speaker 3: he tried to start closing those loopholes. More stolen bases

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Speaker 3: ball and play more you know, three batter rules, all

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Speaker 3: those sort of things to like to try to force

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Speaker 3: some action into the game. Pitchclock obviously being the biggest

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Speaker 3: ones worked and it's worked, but that wasn't like Rob

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Speaker 3: Manfred's genius. He needed like a basketball person. And so

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Speaker 3: I feel like the NBA, they have so much goddamn

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Speaker 3: money and the television contracts are so good that they

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Speaker 3: look around and they're like, well, our playoffs are awesome,

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Speaker 3: our talent is awesome, and our money is awesome. Right,

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Speaker 3: and all of the those things are undeniably true, But

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Speaker 3: do you have like a basketball like I'd be higher

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Speaker 3: Lebron when he retires and be like, Okay, honestly, what

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Speaker 3: is the best way to improve the on court product?

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Speaker 3: What do you like about high school ball, college ball,

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Speaker 3: international ball, the NBA. You're a historian of the game,

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Speaker 3: the old NBA, Like what is the best version of

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Speaker 3: this sport? And how do we get there? And how

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Speaker 3: do we get to it? And like really have hard

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Speaker 3: conversations about what you can do to it. And you know,

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Speaker 3: Bill Simmons had a great rant about all of this stuff,

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Speaker 3: and I listened to his pod and I agreed with

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Speaker 3: some of it, disagree with some of it, but like

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Speaker 3: he seems to believe that you could do seventy games,

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Speaker 3: but the owners wouldn't want to give back the money,

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Speaker 3: so expand like the NBA, absolutely, you watch this sport.

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Speaker 3: Guys sit out because of injury, real or imagined, and

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Speaker 3: guys you've never heard of come in and drop thirty

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Speaker 3: like it's nothing. There's absolutely enough basketball talent in the

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Speaker 3: world to fill to fill thirty two teams. And so

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Speaker 3: if you went to thirty two teams and added Seattle

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Speaker 3: in Vegas, that would increase revenue. Then cut back to

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Speaker 3: seventy games, give the players a little bit more rest,

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Speaker 3: they play more, they stay healthier. I feel like that

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Speaker 3: is an obvious fix for the league here. That doesn't

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Speaker 3: solve every problem, but it solves a lot of problems.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing is Baseball made these changes, and

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Speaker 2: for years they were reticent to do so because it's

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Speaker 2: a game of history and lore and you know, tradition.

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Speaker 2: Basketball is not. There's an old saying in sports. NBA

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Speaker 2: thinks of it first, NFL gets it right, Baseball makes

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Speaker 2: the most money on it. Basketball. I mean, David Stern

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Speaker 2: changed the texture of the and didn't tell the players

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Speaker 2: he came out. I remember that it was just outrageously

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Speaker 2: a bad idea. Then they pushed sleeves on uniforms and

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Speaker 2: some people thought that was to hide tattoos that looked dumb.

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Speaker 2: So I mean the NBA's and David Stearn's largely considered

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Speaker 2: almost a maverick, a highly successful commissioner. He took big

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Speaker 2: swings and missed. So I think I do think in

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Speaker 2: life and in business, when the money's good people, it

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Speaker 2: absolves you of change. And I do think I agree

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Speaker 2: with you. I think that the David Stern used to

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Speaker 2: tell like networks like ESPN, listen, guys, nobody watches our

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Speaker 2: regular season.

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Speaker 3: They never have.

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Speaker 2: That's the dirty little secret of this business. But I

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Speaker 2: think there's more media critics and more people bagging on basketball.

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Speaker 2: I think it just needs a few tweaks. I would

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Speaker 2: tweak the three point game, make it more situational, make

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Speaker 2: it more about contact and physicality. You do that by

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Speaker 2: just take out the corner threes. Make the three arcle

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Speaker 2: right in the bench. And I also people can bag

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Speaker 2: on tanking. All they want is that's why San Antonio

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Speaker 2: is going to have a twelve year run. By the way,

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Speaker 2: if you go back to their you know, how did

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Speaker 2: they get dunk and David Robinson. They were the first tankers.

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Speaker 2: By the way, remember when David Stern was around, and

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't play like in big Sunday games. They would

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Speaker 2: be at home and San Antonio and I think it

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Speaker 2: was Saturday night and they wanted to reward their fans,

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Speaker 2: and then on.

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Speaker 3: Sundays like it's a travel day.

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Speaker 2: I'm not playing Monogenobili and Tony Parker in the league.

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Speaker 2: David Stern got on the phone and barked at everybody ownership.

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Speaker 3: Now, but the it's the same conversation, but we're talking

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Speaker 3: slightly past you. It is smart, Yes, I am not

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Speaker 3: going to say that tanking isn't smart. Sam Presty tanked

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Speaker 3: in order to get some of the picks that he

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Speaker 3: got right like the Spurs. As you've mentioned, it's undeniably

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Speaker 3: the right strategy. The question should be again like should

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Speaker 3: it be allowed? Like in baseball it was the right strategy.

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Speaker 3: A strikeout is not as bad as we think. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: swing hard because home runs are so valuable. It's okay

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Speaker 3: if you hit two twenty, if you hit forty bombs.

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Speaker 3: I'd rather you hit two twenty with forty bombs than

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Speaker 3: hit two sixty with twenty four bombs, even though two

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Speaker 3: sixty with twenty four bombs. Ball and play more and

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Speaker 3: more action, more visually appealing product but you score more

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Speaker 3: runs if you hit the ball over the wall. So

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Speaker 3: they did things to kind of move it, move it

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Speaker 3: away from that to have more action in the sport.

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Speaker 3: Like and so again like I what's wrong with the rule?

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Speaker 3: This is just a it's a very simple. You can't

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Speaker 3: pick in the top four in back to back years

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Speaker 3: like baseball has. That's okay, I'm okay, Like like like

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Speaker 3: baseball has that, Like you the White Sox a couple

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Speaker 3: of years ago had the worst record, but they had

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Speaker 3: picked in the top whatever it was, so they had

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Speaker 3: to pick like eleventh that year. Like, just just make

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Speaker 3: it so that Utah fans and even if you're right

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Speaker 3: that they are like okay with it because it's a

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Speaker 3: path to it. It's still at some point this is competition.

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Speaker 3: It's sports. You got you got to play the game

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Speaker 3: to win or else what the hell are we doing?

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Speaker 2: And Danny, why your reason your belief could make sense

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Speaker 2: is about three years ago because of the nil where

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Speaker 2: American university is now buy fifteen excellent euros and they

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Speaker 2: pull them off their European teams and kids are now

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Speaker 2: staying in college. Absolutely, we see it in football all

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Speaker 2: the time. Now there's six year players. The truth is now,

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Speaker 2: last year's draft was excellent. This year's draft is legendary.

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Speaker 2: The drafts now are much better. I mean this past draft,

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Speaker 2: you get down to Ace Bailey at like six, the

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Speaker 2: first six are like no miss, and then you go

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Speaker 2: from like seven to eighteen and you're like, well, those

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Speaker 2: guys will all start at some point in the NBA.

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Speaker 2: So I think that idea sticks to me because the

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Speaker 2: draft's going to get much better. When that Yukon team

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Speaker 2: won a couple of years ago, it was the first time,

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Speaker 2: in my opinion, in twenty years maybe since the Florida

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Speaker 2: Gators won back to back. Remember they had Corey Brewer,

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Speaker 2: Yo Kim Noah Jo. That was a good team and

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Speaker 2: then we went out how many years it was until

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Speaker 2: the Yukon championship.

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Speaker 3: You're like, this isn't this isn't great.

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Speaker 2: But that Yukon team one and I'm like, shit, there's

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Speaker 2: seven NBA guys they're like playing, they're long the I

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Speaker 2: mean they got they got like the Saban Alabama teams.

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Speaker 2: You're like, they have sixteen NFL guys playing. The Yukon

400
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Speaker 2: Team's like that's when I went okay. This the transfer

401
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,400
Speaker 2: portal and all this stuff that we're starting to see now,

402
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 2: like this is really like it was when I used

403
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Speaker 2: to watch Latner and Bobby Hurley and Grant Hill. You're like,

404
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 2: there's like four NBA guys on this team and two

405
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 2: guys off the bench will be NBA guys next year.

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Speaker 2: So I think you're I think it works with you.

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00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,399
Speaker 2: The No, you don't get a top four pick, but

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Speaker 2: picks five through fourteen are going to be starters in

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Speaker 2: the NBA. Now, I don't necessarily we had drafts where

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Speaker 2: it was Anthony Bennett was the number one pick. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we had the Victor Oladipot draft. You're like, I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure there's a guy in like three out of four drafts.

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Speaker 2: You're like, this is just nobody here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I could. I completely agree, and so I

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Speaker 3: just I again, I think that there's just I think

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Speaker 3: that that's one thing.

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Speaker 4: I think.

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Speaker 3: Uh, the pick protections on trades are a little this.

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Speaker 3: You can trade a first round pick, but it's top

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Speaker 3: twenty protected. It's it's like shrink that way down, like

421
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Speaker 3: because right now Utah they the reason that they need

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Speaker 3: to tank so aggressively is because if they pick outside

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Speaker 3: of the top eight.

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Speaker 5: It goes to Oklahoma City, like Sam Presty would get

425
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Speaker 5: Sam Presty could get the ninth pick in this draft,

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Speaker 5: like so like like Utah us like we need the pick,

427
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Speaker 5: but also like the good of the league, we can't give.

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Speaker 3: Sam Presty another top ten that you know, so like

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Speaker 3: so like I just I just think that those types

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Speaker 3: of things, Uh, the league needs to do. They they

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Speaker 3: they they need to do it, And I think I

432
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 3: think overall the product will improve. But again, to me,

433
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,400
Speaker 3: the biggest one is still style of play and figuring

434
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 3: out like and and Katie hates when people talk about

435
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 3: this because he thinks that people are doing it from

436
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 3: a place of just looking for something to bitch about.

437
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 3: I honestly think that these guys have just gotten too good.

438
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,160
Speaker 3: They're they're they're too good at hitting twenty three footers,

439
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 3: like the whole league can shoot thirty five percent, like

440
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 3: the whole league. Yeah, I like Kevin Durant shooting threes.

441
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 3: I don't like Ant shooting them, correct, I like Queen

442
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 3: shooting them. I don't like Ant shooting.

443
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 2: There are players who are catch and shoot guys. Clay

444
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 2: and kd are built for it. But when Russell Westbrook decides,

445
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: I need to take five. That's bad television. Correct, It's exactly.

446
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 3: And like again back in the day, and it's not

447
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 3: that it's not that you go. You put on a

448
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 3: game from the nineties when I'm a child, and I

449
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: got Michael Jordan's jersey on my wall, like it it is.

450
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 3: They're not running as hard, they are not as fast,

451
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,959
Speaker 3: like it is not. But they had one guy who

452
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 3: would shoot threes. Steve curR, You're the three point shooter. John,

453
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,959
Speaker 3: You're the three point shooter. Now everyone does it, and

454
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 3: so it's just the game is you gotta evolve. You

455
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 3: got to evolve with it with the caliber of your athletes.

456
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,120
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480
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481
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482
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: if you are somebody you know as a problem wants help,

483
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484
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485
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 3: Well, I just finished it. I was so excited.

486
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: I just flew from Naples back to Chicago and I

487
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: read it. It's called The Bookie Inside the High Stakes

488
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 2: World of Sports Betting, a legendary bookmaker's tale of gangsters,

489
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: celebrities and the art of the game. All the proceeds

490
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: from the book here going to Art's two favorite charities,

491
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 2: World Wildlife Fund and Blood Cancer United. This is fun

492
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 2: for me because, as many of you know, if you've

493
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: listened to me for years, I've talked at great length

494
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 2: about my Las Vegas being my first job out of college. Well,

495
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: one of the people that was at the center of

496
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 2: it and around it, one of the most recognizable people

497
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: who was building his own career, was Art Man Terras,

498
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: who started at Caesar's, moved to the Hilton, where I

499
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: spent almost every Saturday and Sunday as a young sportscaster.

500
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 2: So let's start with that. There's so many things to

501
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: get to and I want to take this because a

502
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: lot of this stuff I want you to explain to

503
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: the audience. Some of this stuff. I knew I am

504
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: briefly in the book. And yes, I did introduce you

505
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 2: to your wife, Sue. Beautiful, elegant, smart, all the great things.

506
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: And I hope she's doing well.

507
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 4: I know she is.

508
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: He is beautiful, re guards, beautiful, beautiful kids, absolutely stunning

509
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 2: beautiful kids.

510
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 4: So thank you.

511
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 2: When you think of Caesar's Palace, I'm a guy from

512
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: a small town. You go to Vegas, you think Caesar's Palace.

513
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: You know, it's Harry Gluck, it's big money. It's like

514
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: just Steve Wynn is becoming this big architect in Vegas

515
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: and you Caesar says, Art, get in here and organize

516
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 2: our sports book.

517
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 3: And I'm reading your stories. It was a mess.

518
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 2: And it's amazing that this industry has grown so much.

519
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: Take the audience to when you went into Caesar's the

520
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 2: back room to organize their sports book and what you saw.

521
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: Well, you're you're right that that you know, in the

522
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: early days of the sportsbook industry that I joined in

523
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, it was far different from the industry today,

524
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: and there wasn't a whole lot of procedures and policies

525
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 1: in place, and and and some sportsbooks were pretty chaotic. Now,

526
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,959
Speaker 1: in fairness to some of the other executive at Caesars,

527
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: they were hoping to do and wanting to do the

528
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: same things out that I did.

529
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 4: And certainly the finance and addit people were a big help.

530
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: And once they knew that they had somebody that wanted

531
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: to clean things up, wanted things to be run legitimately

532
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: and properly and within the gaming Gaming Control Board standards,

533
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: compliance standards.

534
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, they were very very helpful also, But yes, it

535
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 4: was chaotic. In those days.

536
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: There was very few house rules, very few standards of

537
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: operational standards, and I think I was able to establish

538
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: a lot of those policies that are still in place

539
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: today in a lot of casinos.

540
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you and Chuck Esposito were the two guys I

541
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: always trusted. I always thought you guys had kind of

542
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: an everyman quality. And I don't think people understand this.

543
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 2: There were people that I knew, like lem Banker. I

544
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: didn't know Billy Walter's at the time, and Lamb could

545
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: be very manipulative, rest in peace and very much as showman.

546
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: And you know, lim wanted what Limb wanted. But when

547
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 2: you started in this business, you know, I'm very naive.

548
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: You know, I just figured, you know, the big guys

549
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: had phone accounts, but they weren't working the edges. It

550
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: was a big operation, but you had real run ins

551
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 2: with Billy Walter or a lem banker. And let's talk

552
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: about the most famous of the gamblers, Billy Walter. And

553
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: how art you listen? You were paid by the Hilton

554
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: or Caesars. This is a legitimate operation. Those guys didn't

555
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 2: want to play by your rules.

556
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I respect the folks that you're mentioning. Yeah,

557
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: I certainly respect their abilities as handicappers. They were both

558
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: top notch and I respect that. But they were adversaries.

559
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 4: You know. They weren't friends and partners or colleagues.

560
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: They were adversaries and and certainly, uh that left a

561
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: real divide and and so no, I didn't get along

562
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: real well with with certain uh high end sophisticated players. Uh.

563
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 4: You know, they threatened my bottom line.

564
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: And you know, and I I said to to to

565
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: a few people in recent weeks that you know, you know,

566
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: you know, maintaining compliance, maintaining the gambling license of a

567
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: company I always viewed as my top priority. Second was

568
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: guest service for it for everyone, and and and third

569
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: was revenue. But but that never nevertheless, the bottom line

570
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: in all of that. Yeah, you know, guest service is great.

571
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: Uh uh. You know, having great television screens and and

572
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: and and audio systems and and and computer systems that

573
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: function properly, that's all an important part of the business.

574
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: But making money is still the bottom line. And and

575
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: it's still after all a said and done, it's still

576
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: about making money.

577
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 4: And and there.

578
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: Were certain people they wanted mine and I wanted theirs,

579
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: and that doesn't always lead to the most comfortable relationships.

580
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: So I didn't know what runners were until I met

581
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 2: people like you or Chuck Esposito, And you know, I'd

582
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: sit down and be asking a million questions because I

583
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: was curious about the industry and I always love betting football,

584
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: and you had to battle runners. A runner is somebody

585
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: who is making bets for a whale, making bets for

586
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: a billy, and you know, he just can't walk in.

587
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: He can get banned, or you're going to have limits

588
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: on him. And his way around that is I'm going

589
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: to have thirty guys spread them around the city. Could

590
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: you tell, Because you know, you had your guys, your

591
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: tellers could you tell that's a runner that's not. I mean,

592
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 2: how difficult was that for you? That game of cat

593
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 2: and mouse?

594
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 4: Well, it was difficult.

595
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: And in Nevada there are regulations prohibiting what's called messenger betters,

596
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: and that you know, slang term is runners, of course,

597
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: but they are the folks that are paid to wager

598
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: on behalf of others. And by the way, I just coincidentally,

599
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: in recent months, New Jersey has passed laws banning proxy

600
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: wagering as it called in there, as it's called in

601
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: their regulations, and that that prohibits people from using other

602
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: people's phone accounts. And that's very very similar in result

603
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: and answer to your question. Sometimes not always, but sometimes

604
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, you know, I mean, if there would be

605
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: certain tip offs if you believed somebody was runner, and

606
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: and and certainly if you with today's technology, you could

607
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: see point spread movement around the industry.

608
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 4: And and and you know, my my long.

609
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: Standing statement to my staff was, well, either this guy

610
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: has ESP or or he's working with somebody else, because yeah,

611
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: if the line is changing across the industry simultaneously as

612
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: somebody's playing, that's a you know, pretty fair indication of

613
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: where the source of those funds might be coming from.

614
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: But there's no tried and true standard answer that that

615
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: gives me or any one else the ability to determine

616
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: that definitively. It's a pretty tough question to answer, but

617
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: there are indications, and.

618
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 4: I always tried.

619
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: I always tried to err on the side of caution

620
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: rather than the side of leniency.

621
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: You know, there's a story when I was a kid

622
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: growing up, the most well known NBA official was Earl Strom.

623
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: He was very boisterous. He was very very much theater

624
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: and charismatic. And there's a story in your book about

625
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 2: and this just goes to show you the lengths you

626
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: didn't have the Internet back then. I mean, it was

627
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: basically you tell a story about to get to figure

628
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: out because gamblers felt like, oh, he has a tendency

629
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: to blank as a ref or do this. It's not rigged,

630
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: it's not throwing a game. But referees are human. They

631
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: have tendencies. For years and years, there were certain officials

632
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: that just were willing to give the road team, maybe

633
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: Steve Javvy. For years I always was told that, hey,

634
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 2: he'll go into a harsh arena, he'll give the road

635
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 2: team the call he won't be intimidated like maybe young

636
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 2: refs or college refts. But tell the Earl Strong story

637
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 2: because I thought that was fascinating.

638
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: Well, there was a very sophisticated gambler who I was

639
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: friendly with, very friendly with.

640
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 4: I actually played softball together. He was a terrific slow

641
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 4: pitch softball pitcher.

642
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: And one of those old timers that really knew the

643
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: game and and and we were very friendly. I didn't

644
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: realize the extent of his sophistication as a sports better

645
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: because again he wasn't making most of his bets in person.

646
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: Others were, so I didn't put it put two and

647
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: two together for quite some time. But later he did

648
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: tell tell me the story of how he would track

649
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: earl Strom because he believed that he had strong tendencies

650
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: and he believed that his officiate and could could could

651
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: dramatically affect NBA totals, and he you know, his his

652
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: total bets were based in large part on where earl

653
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: Strom was going to be officiating.

654
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 4: And as you said, there was no internet back then,

655
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 4: so he literally.

656
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 2: He didn't know who was officiating the games.

657
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,399
Speaker 1: Well, he had somebody following earl Strom to determine where

658
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: which city he was flying to.

659
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 3: That just cracks me up.

660
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 2: Basically, earl Strom had spies. Chase Oh, Earl's in Detroit

661
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: tonight bet the over yess? That's right, that's right. So

662
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: what happens in your career? I fell in love with

663
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 2: boxing when I moved to Vegas. And there are times

664
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: it could be a pachiaw. Mayweather fight or a Buster

665
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 2: Douglas Tyson fight where by proxy you have information that

666
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: is kind of viewed as inside information. What do you

667
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: do when you know something maybe you shouldn't know, You

668
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: stumble on it, or you're so connected art you just

669
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: find things out right in those instances, if you could

670
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: take the audience through one or two of those where

671
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: that's is that a dilemma for you?

672
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 4: It absolutely is a dilemma.

673
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 1: And you know, for many years, particularly after you left

674
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: you left Las Vegas, I got real involved in boxing.

675
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: I was very involved in signing big fights and operating

676
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: the fights and being part of the publicity tours for

677
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: for various big fights. And I never saw, I never

678
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: thought anything about it. It was just part of my

679
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: job and I and I love doing I love being

680
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: around boxing, I love running sports books and and so so.

681
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 4: You know, it didn't It didn't bother me.

682
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 1: I didn't feel any any any great conflict uh until

683
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,479
Speaker 1: the until the Mayweather Pack Yell fight. And in that fight,

684
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: I did uh find out some very very important insight

685
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: information and and and it left me in.

686
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 4: A real dilemma. Uh.

687
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: Before the fight, I was told straight up that Paqyelle

688
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: was hurt and could not win the fight, and and

689
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 1: and and and when you watch the fight, that's exactly

690
00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: what happened.

691
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 4: That he was one armed fighter that night.

692
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 2: Uh.

693
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 4: He immediately had shoulder surgery shortly after the fight.

694
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: And and and and and and it became crystal clear

695
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: to me that there must be a very clear separation

696
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: between participation in sports, including on the promotional end, and

697
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: and and gambling on sports and and and I've preached

698
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: that message ever since. And and I did work for

699
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: the NBA as a consultant for many years, and of

700
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: course they loved that message, uh, as did other as

701
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: did the other leagues, you know, because I would be

702
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 1: at various conferences and speaking engagements and and and and

703
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: you know I felt very u a great deal of

704
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: comaraderie camaraderie with the leagues on on that issue. That

705
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: that's why calling the the the the embracing of gambling

706
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: now by the leagues that have been surprising to me,

707
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: you know.

708
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 4: I mean I knew that there was going to be

709
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 4: some cooperation.

710
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 1: Data sharing, for example with for in play wagering uh

711
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: videos those into casinos and sports books of course is

712
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: another form of cooperation, and I.

713
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 4: That I certainly expected.

714
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 6: But the but the the the amount of official sponsorships

715
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 6: and official partnerships with the gambling companies that that has

716
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 6: that has.

717
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 4: Really uh surprised me.

718
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: And and and and I think that that message can't stand.

719
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: It's not going to stay there forever because there's going

720
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: to be pushed back inevitably. And you know, and I

721
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: look around the world the world of sports gambling. You know,

722
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: you look to Europe, where sports gambling has been legal

723
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: now for something like twenty five years or thirty years,

724
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: and sportsbook advertising is not lead and there's great pushback

725
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: now in the UK and Ireland and the Netherlands, in

726
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: Germany and elsewhere around the world. The US, of course

727
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,720
Speaker 1: is still going one hundred miles an hour the opposite direction,

728
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I think that's a terribly mismat

729
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: mixed message that the leagues are trying to sen right now.

730
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: You know, they tell their players and their staffs, the

731
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: coaches and even office personnel, how they must stay away

732
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: from gambling, how evil gambling is, and yet they're signing

733
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: these partnership agreements and in some cases even wearing gambling

734
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: company logos on the shirts on their shirts.

735
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 4: So I think it's confusing to.

736
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: A lot of young athletes, and it's going to continue

737
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 1: to cause problems until there is a day of reckoning.

738
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 4: And I well, there's yeah.

739
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: I hope that the leagues address this issue themselves rather

740
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 1: than have it imposed upon them.

741
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And let's you know, prop bets are something I

742
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 2: think that worry people. I've said before, I worry about

743
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: not betting the spread as much because games are monitored.

744
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 2: You always knew and you predicted this, and you told

745
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 2: the NBA when you sat down with David watched the officials.

746
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 2: It's not going to be about the players. It's going

747
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: to be college kids because they don't have any money,

748
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 2: and it's going to be officials. And so what's interesting

749
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 2: is that Tim donaghee situation happened, and it was I

750
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 2: will say this and I've talked to Tim donaghy. It

751
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 2: was let let's let's take it back, because I for

752
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 2: years argued Vegas is the ally of the pro leagues.

753
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 3: They don't want it.

754
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: Listen, the margins are thin on this stuff.

755
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 4: That's right.

756
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 2: The last thing they want is for there to be

757
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: illegal gambling. They'll tell the leagues, we're getting burned on

758
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: this game, or we're getting burned by this official. So

759
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 2: let's go back to the Tim Donegie situation where he

760
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily changing outcomes, he was changing overs and unders,

761
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: and take the audience back, because I want to get

762
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: them into your book that were you shocked by Doneghie.

763
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 4: I was caught off guard.

764
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: I did not see that it was happening, and I

765
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: have great regret about that, and they talk about that

766
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: in the book. I wish I had caught it. And

767
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: it would have been very difficult to see though, because

768
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: we did not get bet on those games or those totals.

769
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 4: Uh. So there was no.

770
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: Unusual money uh flooding into the into the Las Vegas

771
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: casinos like there was, for example, in the Arizona State

772
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: point shaving scandal of the mid nine right, which was

773
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: easy to see, and and and I was so proud

774
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: of the industry for seeing it doing the right thing,

775
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 1: notifying the leagues, notifying uh uh in that case, the NCAA,

776
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: and and of course the Nevada Gaming Control Board having

777
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: everything documented, a videotaped, et cetera. We do handle the

778
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: situation perfect perfectly. So I took great pride in that,

779
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 1: and I took that part of my job seriously monitoring

780
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: for those types of improprieties. The Donaghy scandal, though, did

781
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: was very upsetting to me, you know, and seeing David

782
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 1: Stern before the media, uh when that it was first reported,

783
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: was heartbreaking. He was, you know, he was genuinely crushed,

784
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: hurt by what had happened. It was playing to see.

785
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,879
Speaker 1: You could see the pain on his face, and that's

786
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: all I felt too. But today it's far different. And

787
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: you know, mentioning the prop bets I was I've never

788
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: been an advocate of prop bets on college athletes. I

789
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: did wind up doing it the last several years that

790
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: I was in the business, but I had to to

791
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: keep up with the Joneses by that time.

792
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 4: By that time, you know.

793
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: In the late twenty eighteen nineteen in early twenties, you

794
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: could not have prop bets up on the college football

795
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: championship game or the final four. You know, it was

796
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: expected by that time by your consumers, and you had

797
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: to accommodate your consumers. So I did do it, but

798
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: I never liked it. But what's happened now in the

799
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: last couple of years with you know, in pro baseball

800
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: and pro basketball, has been very surprising and devastating to me.

801
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: And that is going to be very tough to control.

802
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 1: Prop betting and in play wagering has become a very fun,

803
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: enjoyable pastime for thousands and thousands of consumers, So it's

804
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 1: going to be hard to roll that back. But on

805
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 1: college sports it should be rolled back, and I am

806
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: a strong, strong advocate of the industry doing away with

807
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: wagering on college sports. On individual athlete athletic performance.

808
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: I want to go back to the Tyson buster Douglas fight,

809
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: where Mike Tyson I think was a forty two to

810
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: one favorite. I can remember going on the air and

811
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: saying it's the safest bet.

812
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 3: Of all time.

813
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 2: In fact, a friend of mine, a friend of mine

814
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 2: was at the California Pizza Kitchen at the then time

815
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: New Mirage, and we were at California Pizza and the

816
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: fight was that night, and he goes, hey, i' a

817
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 2: bet ten dollars on Buster Douglas. I said, just buy

818
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: a chicken California pizza, chicken barbecue chicken pizza. That is

819
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 2: a way better bet than Buster Douglas, some guy from Ohio.

820
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 2: Of course, I was, you know, exceptionally wrong. Go back

821
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 2: to that fight. What happens in your space when it

822
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: is the upset of a decade in any sport. Is

823
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 2: that a miserable experience for you?

824
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't even book that fight. I didn't take wages.

825
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: I thought I considered it an outprice, meaning it was ridiculous.

826
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 4: It wasn't a competitive event.

827
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: Buster Douglas had fought at the Hilton about a year

828
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: earlier and lost to Tony Tucker and did not impress

829
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: me at all. You know, it was lethargic and you know,

830
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: just uninspired performance completely and didn't didn't look good at all.

831
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: And I'd seen him in some other fights too on

832
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: his way up the ladder. Not very impressive to me. Tyson,

833
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: of course, was annihilating everybody at that time. But in retrospect,

834
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 1: Buster Douglas had lost his mother shortly before the fight,

835
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: and he dedicated his next fight to the memory of

836
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 1: his mom. Fought the fight of his life. He really

837
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: did fight a terrific fight that night. Tyson, on the

838
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: other hand, was an emotional wreck in his personal life.

839
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: And I came to learn later in this case, I

840
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: learned this inside information after the fact, not before the fact.

841
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: But I was told by a very good friend and

842
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: my personal physician who happened to be Mike's personal physician

843
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: also and also the chairman of the Nevada Athletic Commission,

844
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: that Mike had been suffering from an STD and was

845
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: under heavy medication.

846
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 4: At the time of the fight.

847
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: And it wasn't the first time that he fought under

848
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 1: those conditions. The first time in the Trevor Burberck fight,

849
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: it didn't. It didn't hurt his performance at all. Second

850
00:45:58,960 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: time it did.

851
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

852
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: By the way, By the way, calling that that forty

853
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 1: two to one that you're referencing, that that was Jimmy

854
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 1: Vicera at the Mirage book the fight, and he put

855
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,439
Speaker 1: it up one to twenty seven, making Tyson a twenty

856
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 1: seven to one favorite over Douglas, and all the money

857
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,439
Speaker 1: was on Tyson, Every ticket was on Tyson. He said,

858
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: somebody put up somebody put up a lot of money,

859
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: you know. And so he gratueated the odds all the

860
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: way up to forty two to one and that and uh,

861
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: and then got some great publicity about it afterwards, and

862
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: that still telling stories about it to this day.

863
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: The