Speaker 1: Up next out Wow, what Jo called part of the gang?
Speaker 1: Which switch? What can we do for those who have
Speaker 1: done everything for us? I'm talking about veterans, jobs, mental health, homelessness. Too.
Speaker 1: Many of those who have served this country are suffering
Speaker 1: and need our help. So what can we do? The answer?
Speaker 1: So much and there's no time to waste. This is
Speaker 1: out Allowed with Gianno called me. Welcome back to Allow
Speaker 1: with Gianno called well and Honora Memorial Day. I've got
Speaker 1: a very special show for you guys this week that
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to. My guests today is a
Speaker 1: relative of mine, someone who I talked to in my
Speaker 1: time and need is specially My guest is Dr Olamenttoyan Hines,
Speaker 1: the owner of Peace Amount Counseling, Coaching and Consulting. A
Speaker 1: licensed professional counselor alone. Towyan has more than twenty years
Speaker 1: of military service and recently retired from the Illinois National
Speaker 1: Guard as a brigade chaplain. On top of that, she
Speaker 1: also happens to be my cousin. As I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: Olaetwyan has so many interesting ideas and powerful insights into
Speaker 1: how we can better help those who have done so
Speaker 1: much for us. Veterans and their families. We're going to
Speaker 1: discuss what can be done in terms of jobs, mental health, homelessness,
Speaker 1: and so much more. This episode means a lot to
Speaker 1: me and I hope you will tune in. And now
Speaker 1: I want to welcome Reverend Dr Ola Antoyan Hines. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining me on out lot with
Speaker 1: Gianno Calldwell. Thank you for having me appreciate it absolutely so.
Speaker 1: You are my cousin, but you're more like my sister
Speaker 1: than my cousins, So so we got a really strong
Speaker 1: relationship and I'm very thankful. Before we discuss how to
Speaker 1: help veterans and some other issues, why don't you tell
Speaker 1: our listeners a bit about yourself. What's your background and
Speaker 1: how did you come into military service. Well, I just
Speaker 1: retired in September from the military after twenty six years.
Speaker 1: I enlisted as a private and worked my way through
Speaker 1: Enlisted Officers Candidate School became a military chaplain. So when
Speaker 1: I retired, I retired at the rank of major as
Speaker 1: a brigade chaplain. In addition, I am an educator and
Speaker 1: faith community as well as a minister, and I'm also
Speaker 1: a licensed clinical professional counselor serving veterans and their families. Amen,
Speaker 1: not as beautiful. And I know the governor of Illinois,
Speaker 1: the former governor, he created a position for you to
Speaker 1: lead the Illinois National Guard. Is that right? Well, it wasn't.
Speaker 1: That wasn't the position to lead. It was. There were
Speaker 1: a couple of positions that were offered at the duty
Speaker 1: operational support. One was the Wounded Warrior Project or Wounded
Speaker 1: Warrior Ministry Project, not to be confused with the Wounded
Speaker 1: Warrior Project, the formal organization. It was the Wounded Warrior
Speaker 1: Ministry Project, and that program was intended to visit ill,
Speaker 1: injured and wounded service members across the United States from
Speaker 1: the Illinois Army National Guards. So we had service members
Speaker 1: who deployed could not come back home for a multitude
Speaker 1: of reasons, and it was my responsibility to provide a
Speaker 1: pastoral spiritual care to those service members, checking with their families.
Speaker 1: Um I also served as family Life chaplain for the
Speaker 1: Illinois Army National Guard and providing training, two chaplains, and
Speaker 1: some important counseling spiritual counseling to service members and their families. Wow, now,
Speaker 1: if you would indulge us a little bit on how
Speaker 1: old were you when you joined the service, and what
Speaker 1: gave that desire to join, because it's it's a big commitment,
Speaker 1: and it's a life commitment for so many people who joined.
Speaker 1: I joined the military when I was nineteen years old.
Speaker 1: I was already in college my freshman year, and I
Speaker 1: came home um for summer break. And I will tell
Speaker 1: this very quick story. I was up for three o'clock
Speaker 1: in the morning. I couldn't sleep, and there was an
Speaker 1: at that came on for the Joint the National Guard.
Speaker 1: So at three o'clock in the morning, I called the recruiter. Um,
Speaker 1: I believe he did answer. And to this day, this
Speaker 1: recruited I I was still acquainted. In fact, he attended
Speaker 1: my retirement ceremony vertically. And I made the choice to
Speaker 1: join the military. And I was longing for something more
Speaker 1: disciplined in my life. My family background, as you know,
Speaker 1: lends itself to a lot of pathology and just kind
Speaker 1: of disproportionate. Um, how do I say this? Social opportunities,
Speaker 1: professional opportunities, and I wanted to create space for myself
Speaker 1: while I had more opportunities, and joining the military provided
Speaker 1: payment for college to receive some funds, and um, what
Speaker 1: came out of that for me also was a great
Speaker 1: deal of leadership, learn a lot more about myself. It
Speaker 1: cultivated me into the person that I am today. A
Speaker 1: lot of my personality, my person who stems from the
Speaker 1: lessons I've learned in the military throughout. So that story
Speaker 1: and three o'clock in the morning and calling the recruiter
Speaker 1: summer of my freshman year, going into my sophomore year,
Speaker 1: and the following year actually in that June I enlisted,
Speaker 1: and the following January I was off to basic training.
Speaker 1: Now you have more than twenty years in military service
Speaker 1: under your belt. What was military service like? Was it
Speaker 1: something that you were very concerned because I know a
Speaker 1: lot of times, especially in families like ours, people are
Speaker 1: concerned about sending their loved ones out and the possibility
Speaker 1: that something could happen to them while they're serving. How
Speaker 1: was that service experience like for you? It depends on
Speaker 1: the period of of life or season of my military
Speaker 1: career that I was in. While enlisted, it was a
Speaker 1: very different experience. I was in college, so I was
Speaker 1: commuting from your vine, Urbana to Chicago for military training
Speaker 1: once a month. In addition to being a college student.
Speaker 1: Now at the time I was administration for my unit,
Speaker 1: and so the responsibilities weren't so intense um as they
Speaker 1: had become later. However, it was the time away from
Speaker 1: a college students routine. So there was this duality of worlds,
Speaker 1: one as a soldier and then the other as a student.
Speaker 1: Then I decided I'll become an officer, and so here
Speaker 1: I am still in school um in undergrad and going
Speaker 1: away for officers training and prepering to become an officer,
Speaker 1: and the intensity of or demand on service was different.
Speaker 1: There were lots of expectations around leadership, some of which
Speaker 1: I had not been exposed to. I began to learn
Speaker 1: more about war in combat from a from not from
Speaker 1: an administrative lens. Now we're talking about strategy and operation
Speaker 1: and how as an officer the expectation to function in
Speaker 1: those conditions and states. And then there was the part
Speaker 1: when I did become an officer and the mentality of
Speaker 1: switching from being enlisted to being an officer, the expectation
Speaker 1: of demands, and I was a chaplain. What was unique
Speaker 1: to my chaplain cy is that I was the first
Speaker 1: female chaplain candidate in the d National Guard Army National
Speaker 1: Guard and the first female chap chaplain, first female chaplain candidate,
Speaker 1: and there was this nuance that one people had not
Speaker 1: been exposed to women chaplains, and there was the cultural
Speaker 1: component impacted by that. So they're they're all these Uh,
Speaker 1: so my dualities became more quadrupled here. I am still
Speaker 1: a student, I'm now a soldier and officer, and I
Speaker 1: am a chaplain and I'm also a woman, and I'm
Speaker 1: also African American. And so throughout my career I dealt
Speaker 1: with barriers and I will and I had to create
Speaker 1: I had to work hard to create spaces for myself
Speaker 1: to prove um not myself to people, but my my presence,
Speaker 1: my presence in those spaces, and so I worked really
Speaker 1: hard to accomplish and and my passion and taking care
Speaker 1: of service members and families has always that's that's my value,
Speaker 1: that's my intrinsic value. So that remained, and yet I
Speaker 1: was dealing with these external forces that sometimes made that
Speaker 1: value complex. Now that's interesting, and uh, for everybody that's listening,
Speaker 1: they can tell you're clearly a super smart person. I
Speaker 1: love your word usage of you know, you talk about barriers,
Speaker 1: and so often people deal with barriers in life and
Speaker 1: in multiple ways. But when you're thinking about military services,
Speaker 1: certainly an entirely different ball game than what I may
Speaker 1: experiences someone who's never been a part of that life.
Speaker 1: Would you mind sharing a little bit about what those
Speaker 1: barriers might have been or how did you you handle them,
Speaker 1: because it's, as you mentioned, it's very complex situation. I
Speaker 1: there were, but there are so many narratives to tell,
Speaker 1: and I and I will I will point to the
Speaker 1: ones that have been turning points for my way of
Speaker 1: being and thinking. I recall as a Chaplin candidate and
Speaker 1: having an n CEO, and I will say this our
Speaker 1: a caveat, or preface it with this that not every
Speaker 1: person in the military. I've had these ex science had
Speaker 1: some really wonderful experiences, but some of these are really
Speaker 1: tough and and to process um. And so this n
Speaker 1: c O, I was, I was too received a rewarding.
Speaker 1: This c O was responsible for typing up the paperwork
Speaker 1: I'm in the room. He outlast as some people don't deserve,
Speaker 1: you know, different things. Well, that was a time when
Speaker 1: I was going to get out of the military, and
Speaker 1: so I was okay with putting that aside, only to
Speaker 1: find out that that n c O had not process
Speaker 1: is my pay ford for me to get out, and
Speaker 1: that UM I was still in the military, even got
Speaker 1: promoted while I was on inactive reserve, which is what
Speaker 1: he placed me in and which was a blessing in
Speaker 1: disguise because I was still in the military. I got
Speaker 1: to stay. Those years weren't good years but didn't count.
Speaker 1: But it was that kind of she It was. I
Speaker 1: was in the Air Defense artillery unit, by the way,
Speaker 1: uh And not that those those service members are bad,
Speaker 1: but I have to say this, we're in one and
Speaker 1: I was there doing a time when the presence of
Speaker 1: females was novice. It was like if if ever at all,
Speaker 1: let alone a chaplain or chaplain candidate. And so I
Speaker 1: was a part of a time when being things that
Speaker 1: are unfolding now people were just whispering about maybe or
Speaker 1: um had their their objections too. I've had plenty of
Speaker 1: opportunities where individuals would try and sabotage certain aspects of
Speaker 1: my career. I remember being on deployment and um I
Speaker 1: deployed Da Kosovo and I was the only female chaplain.
Speaker 1: So this was the first time the serving albaiting and
Speaker 1: religious community would have been exposed to a female chaplain,
Speaker 1: and before I even came in country, the task force
Speaker 1: chaplain had to inquire of the religious leaders where they
Speaker 1: comfortable having a conversation with the female job. We're talking
Speaker 1: about the moms, um, And so it's like like in
Speaker 1: other spaces, you would not need permission as a professional.
Speaker 1: My colleagues didn't need permission, and then permission needed to
Speaker 1: be asked of me, And so those were some of
Speaker 1: the barriers. But they also taught me that my voice
Speaker 1: and my presence matters in spaces, and I have to
Speaker 1: do well, not to perform well to leave an impression
Speaker 1: of see I told you, but to do well so
Speaker 1: that other people who follow they have credibility after me.
Speaker 1: I think this lines up for me, especially Memorial Day, UM,
Speaker 1: And I apologize if I'm going segue Memorial Day coming up,
Speaker 1: thinking about those African American service members who lost their
Speaker 1: life and service. When I am dialogue with other veterans
Speaker 1: or service members and to hear their narrative of the
Speaker 1: things that they had to overcome during their times of service,
Speaker 1: being called out their name and I don't mean buddy
Speaker 1: fran Pal, being treated unfairly by their peers or in community,
Speaker 1: when they when when they were out on off post
Speaker 1: or even on post, and so when I hear their
Speaker 1: near paratives and the hardships they had to experience and
Speaker 1: the hardships I experienced. But over time things improve, um,
Speaker 1: nonetheless the way it's paved. And so this is my
Speaker 1: experience in the military is a part of a legacy
Speaker 1: of those who have gone before me, long long before me,
Speaker 1: prior to Vietnam and World War One and World to
Speaker 1: all of those even during Civil War. Um, the legacy
Speaker 1: goes back that far. And so I in my own
Speaker 1: career was diligent about being the person that my ancestors conspect.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I want to continue from there in
Speaker 1: a moment right after a quick break. You know what's
Speaker 1: so interesting about what you just said is it's it's
Speaker 1: entirely bigger than you, completely and totally, and that's whether
Speaker 1: it be and you, operating in your your capacity, obviously
Speaker 1: your professional capacity, and what you're doing in the right
Speaker 1: here and now, you are literally creating a trail for others.
Speaker 1: And I think that's clearly what services about your fellow
Speaker 1: man or woman ensuring that certainly there's space for them,
Speaker 1: and we honor, honor, you for that, and certainly for
Speaker 1: everyone that died uh in honor of their country. I
Speaker 1: think this is like the greatest sacrifice you can ever give.
Speaker 1: So I really really appreciate that, and I'm thankful for
Speaker 1: your story. Now I know faith as played such an
Speaker 1: important and exceptional part of your life. How does faith
Speaker 1: play in your role in counseling and in by rolling counseling?
Speaker 1: I on function around the practice called psycho theological integration
Speaker 1: and what that means incorporating psychology, theology or one's belief
Speaker 1: system and bringing those clinical and spiritual worlds together. It's
Speaker 1: really done by holding space. Buber has this ival concept
Speaker 1: of the respect of the other. There's this mutual positive regard,
Speaker 1: and so in that space is very different from being
Speaker 1: a pastoral counselor. It's very different from being a Minister's
Speaker 1: very different from being a clinical therapist because you are
Speaker 1: enveloping all these worlds not based off of where you are,
Speaker 1: but you're based it off of where is this person
Speaker 1: that has allowed me to journey with him. So for
Speaker 1: my for practice, that is how it I navigated it
Speaker 1: can be. I've worked with everyone from Muslims to Wickens
Speaker 1: to Spiritualists to Buddhists, Christians. So the spectrum of holding
Speaker 1: space has nothing to do with one's denomination and has
Speaker 1: to do with this author to human experience that we have.
Speaker 1: I hold space for myself knowing that the work I'm
Speaker 1: doing is for the greater good, and I am able
Speaker 1: to then be present with the other, to connect with
Speaker 1: them based off of what their needs are so that
Speaker 1: they can do their work to become well. Wow, Okay,
Speaker 1: let me ask you this question because as a faith
Speaker 1: person and what I see is totally different than military, clearly.
Speaker 1: And I've never served, uh And I want to say unfortunately,
Speaker 1: because I think it's just such a great h a
Speaker 1: great honor to serve. But have you noticed, as I've
Speaker 1: seen across the country where there seems to be somewhat
Speaker 1: of a marginalization around faith, people of faith, and this
Speaker 1: usurping of of that that freedom of religious faith to
Speaker 1: be able to state what you are, who you are,
Speaker 1: and to embrace it. You know, in a lot of cases,
Speaker 1: as people are looking to take God out of the constitution,
Speaker 1: take them off the dollar bill, We've seen that occur
Speaker 1: over the years. And I would argue that it seems
Speaker 1: as though it's much more prevalent than it was previously.
Speaker 1: Have you seen any of that in the military. Have
Speaker 1: you felt as though, you know, you've seen people's roles,
Speaker 1: whether it be you or someone else, marginalized because of
Speaker 1: their commitment to faith or their exposing of it. UM
Speaker 1: and the military is quite different. Chaplains are in the
Speaker 1: military because we support the free exercise of religion. That
Speaker 1: is our that is our one of our responsibilities to
Speaker 1: ensure the free exercise of religion. And so the exposure
Speaker 1: I've had with individuals of different denominations, my responsibility has
Speaker 1: been to ensure that they have the space to practice.
Speaker 1: I either perform or provide performinging. I perform according to
Speaker 1: my tenants of faith UM as a Christian and provide me.
Speaker 1: If I have a service member who's Buddhist or Wiccan
Speaker 1: or Ish Khan, um whatever, then I am to ensure
Speaker 1: that they have space and time to practice. The caveat
Speaker 1: to that is as long as it doesn't interfere with mission.
Speaker 1: And I've had to navigate that part for them. So
Speaker 1: I've been more of an advocate to ensure, well, you know, Friday,
Speaker 1: their prayers need to happen, and so what missions are
Speaker 1: going on that allows space for individuals of practice or
Speaker 1: sabbath or mass any of those any of those experiences.
Speaker 1: So my responsibility, even food restrictions to ensure that those
Speaker 1: things are accommodated for the service members. As it relates
Speaker 1: to society at large transitioning out of the military, even
Speaker 1: though I've serve dually, a lot of my mindset shifts
Speaker 1: towards military structure. I find that individuals like to be
Speaker 1: able to make their own choices about how they like
Speaker 1: things to be, and it's not always about collective community consciousness.
Speaker 1: So when it comes to this divisive stance around the
Speaker 1: announcement respect of perspective of religions and removal of certain
Speaker 1: things to create this unified structure, I go back historically
Speaker 1: to the reason why things were established the way they
Speaker 1: were from the beginning, and the individuals who are protesting
Speaker 1: these things now did not have access or a voice
Speaker 1: in those decisions. Now individuals have a voice, and they're
Speaker 1: using that voice to articulate their preferences based off of
Speaker 1: their individual selves, not the active often and so that
Speaker 1: is in my mind how I'm able to navigate, Well,
Speaker 1: you want this removed because you weren't a part of
Speaker 1: decision making process. Of course you were not, And now
Speaker 1: you have a voice that social justice. I can advocate
Speaker 1: and speak for myself. That is what society says, in
Speaker 1: a democratic society says, we have permission to do permission.
Speaker 1: I use that very interestingly, of course, um, and so
Speaker 1: people do it. So when it comes to this perspective
Speaker 1: around how religions are fluid or not fluid, or diversified
Speaker 1: or not diversisfied, what's accessible, what's not? Um, what is
Speaker 1: labeled or not, it's about well, I wasn't a part
Speaker 1: of the decision making process, so now I want to
Speaker 1: be a part of it now. And it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: systemically things will change. It just means that people now
Speaker 1: have a voice and that and I appreciate that point
Speaker 1: of view, uh, that they want to have a voice.
Speaker 1: But it seems as though some of the voices of
Speaker 1: because you just mentioned it is not the collective so
Speaker 1: as someone who's uniquely disseminating whatever message that they feel
Speaker 1: as most conducive to how they believe. But it feels
Speaker 1: as though in some contexts that individuals are looking to
Speaker 1: usurp a person's right to express their faith and we
Speaker 1: this is clearly not all military. I'm never certain the military,
Speaker 1: but in corporations, if you say like, oh, I'm a Christian,
Speaker 1: I pray or and I know they're supposed to be No, uh,
Speaker 1: you're you're you're not supposed to discriminate against individuals. But
Speaker 1: we've seen where individuals have announced their faith and they've
Speaker 1: been fired from jobs, or whereas we see that there
Speaker 1: is a condemnation of certain belief systems, and so it's
Speaker 1: it's it's just a very really interesting thing place right now.
Speaker 1: And I was really interested in knowing if you had
Speaker 1: any personal experiences with that in the military, which you
Speaker 1: kind of went into. So thank you for mentioning that.
Speaker 1: And I'm hoping and praying that it will never be
Speaker 1: a time where a person serving in the military can't
Speaker 1: proudly announce their faith. And you know, I'm a Christian
Speaker 1: just like you are. And I think it's so important
Speaker 1: that faith plays a pardon everything that we do, whether
Speaker 1: it be professional or personally. It makes all the difference
Speaker 1: in the world in my viewpoint, in per my experience,
Speaker 1: well to to say how prevalent or how significant is
Speaker 1: on our id tags or some people will call them
Speaker 1: dog tags are religious preferences listed on our with our
Speaker 1: SOLF security number, our name, and blood type. So is
Speaker 1: your religious not your denominational preference? And I would sadly
Speaker 1: say the reason that is listed on there is that
Speaker 1: in case of a loss, that the corporate rights can
Speaker 1: be given to you in your passing. So there's a
Speaker 1: huge consideration of what faith means to military personnel, even
Speaker 1: at death. So that's how that's the extent that diversity
Speaker 1: and the understanding. But again the practice as long as
Speaker 1: it does then interfere with mission, that's the practice. We
Speaker 1: can talk about other aspects of religion, uh of where
Speaker 1: people served in the military and how that impacts them.
Speaker 1: I've had those experiences with individuals and the bias and
Speaker 1: discrimination that comes with that, and what that means for
Speaker 1: other cultures or even those of other cultures who serve
Speaker 1: in the military, and and those practices of discrimination based
Speaker 1: off of the way one looks or the way one speaks,
Speaker 1: or being called a trigger because of a deployment experience.
Speaker 1: So those things are real as well. So the it's
Speaker 1: really um and I think I'm being very over generalizing
Speaker 1: um this message, but I'm trying to be very clear
Speaker 1: that it's not all, it's some, but it is there.
Speaker 1: And the unfortunate part about the it's not all or
Speaker 1: some is the the some sometimes control the conversation because
Speaker 1: they're the vocal minority. And those are the people who
Speaker 1: who are written about, who are reported on. And I'm
Speaker 1: talking about reporting from a journalistic standpoint, and we we
Speaker 1: were begin to think that maybe there is a change
Speaker 1: is occurring in the in the military service. But I
Speaker 1: pray and hope that we'll see a continuation of a positive,
Speaker 1: faith based experience, being able to be who you are
Speaker 1: and not have to change for the sake of what
Speaker 1: a few may think or say. So I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Thank you for explaining that to us. Now, we know
Speaker 1: veterans across the country are dealing with a lot of
Speaker 1: issues from jobs, mental health, homelessness, and we're talking about
Speaker 1: folks who have already left the service. And we see
Speaker 1: signs where we are on the free you know, leaving
Speaker 1: the freeway exiting off where somebody may say I'm a veteran,
Speaker 1: or people are on the street where they're veteran veteran
Speaker 1: hats and they're asking for change, or they're homeless or
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. And there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people who feel very patriotic around helping UM individuals like
Speaker 1: that and helping veterans broadly speaking, are those general principles
Speaker 1: should we apply in terms of help helping them? What
Speaker 1: should we be thinking about when we're talking about Memorial Day?
Speaker 1: How can we serve those who have given everything for
Speaker 1: our freedom? How can we better serve them? Um? So
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna get to answer the Latin like the
Speaker 1: latter part, and maybe that will be inclusive of the
Speaker 1: other parts um that you spoke on. I believe that
Speaker 1: in terms in terms of how can we serve veterans
Speaker 1: who have given everything for us? How can we honor them?
Speaker 1: Because we've seen a lot of folks who are dealing
Speaker 1: with homelessness, mental issues. Uh you see them on the
Speaker 1: corner with science and that they're veteran and they need help.
Speaker 1: How can we honor their sacrifice as they fall for
Speaker 1: our freedom? Or rather your sacrifice, you all sacrifice, I
Speaker 1: should say so. So I have I have mixed positions
Speaker 1: about that from a personal lens and from a professional one. Okay, Um,
Speaker 1: from a professional lens, it's um individuals who who served
Speaker 1: and so served well or not so well, they still served,
Speaker 1: and they are there due the respect of service and
Speaker 1: the benefits they're entitled to because of that service, whether
Speaker 1: it be through the v A, communal support, veteran service organizations,
Speaker 1: et cetera. Then there are some who, by life chance,
Speaker 1: make choices that impact the life of other people. And
Speaker 1: so my bias and that is to what extent are
Speaker 1: those individuals They're eligible for the benefits they're eligible produced service,
Speaker 1: but how to what extent are they eligible for the
Speaker 1: support of community? And this is probably leaning in a
Speaker 1: lot of different directions. Service member us, like everybody else,
Speaker 1: while we serve, we're also human beings. We are also
Speaker 1: citizens of this country. And while we have the respect
Speaker 1: of service, we still have to follow the protocols, the laws,
Speaker 1: the system, et cetera. We don't. We don't get away
Speaker 1: with things just because of service. So when it comes
Speaker 1: to the impact of mental health, when it comes to
Speaker 1: the impact of homelessness, when it comes to the impact
Speaker 1: of job loss, incarceration, all those um things that impact
Speaker 1: service members just like everybody else, it's what is the
Speaker 1: individual's narrative that brings them into the space. And I
Speaker 1: think first the first thing to help is to understand
Speaker 1: the story, to find out if help is necessary, because
Speaker 1: there are times when help is not necessary but desired,
Speaker 1: and then there are times when help is necessary, and
Speaker 1: then there are times when help is deserved. And then
Speaker 1: there's times when you're entitled to And I'm not talking
Speaker 1: about entitlement in terms of privilege, I mean like entitlement
Speaker 1: to be VA benefits, entitlements too, you know, um VA,
Speaker 1: homelown benefits, et cetera. And so I always encourage people
Speaker 1: find out what the person's narrative is, understand their story,
Speaker 1: not from a place of judgment, but from a place
Speaker 1: of unconditional positive regard. To be the listener, not to
Speaker 1: do anything or to fix anything, but to simply engage.
Speaker 1: Just to engage, and then you'll understand what needs are unmet.
Speaker 1: But you'll only know those specifically when you ask. So
Speaker 1: for women veterans, the assumptions around women veterans in their service, well,
Speaker 1: some of our health care needs are different from our
Speaker 1: male counterparts. So to assume that women veterans need the
Speaker 1: exact same healthcare right or the exact same services, and
Speaker 1: wanting a community wanted to do something without asking what
Speaker 1: is the need, what is the support um Sometimes the
Speaker 1: need for homeless women veterans are different from male veterans.
Speaker 1: Sometimes the mental health issues where women veterans are different
Speaker 1: than male veterans, And so it's about asking the question
Speaker 1: to find out what resources are necessary and deserved and
Speaker 1: if support can be rendered. I want to pick up
Speaker 1: from there in a moment, but first let's go to break,
Speaker 1: you know. And that's that's such a I don't think
Speaker 1: a lot of people take time to kind of think
Speaker 1: about that, to engage on that level, because it's almost
Speaker 1: like you're just passing by someone on the street and
Speaker 1: you thank them for their service and you try to
Speaker 1: help them out with whatever you have in your pocket.
Speaker 1: So it's it's on a very micro level in terms
Speaker 1: of that level of engagement. People a lot of times
Speaker 1: don't even take the time to say, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: how did how did you get how did you get here?
Speaker 1: No one, no one. Not many people take that time
Speaker 1: to do that. Not understand your point in terms of hey,
Speaker 1: sometimes in those situations, you can have a veteran that's
Speaker 1: dealing with mental health issues and they don't want to help.
Speaker 1: They're just they're on the street, just like you see
Speaker 1: a lot of folks generally in the state of California
Speaker 1: anywhere else with homelessness. In the state of california's about
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty thousand people, and some folks just
Speaker 1: choose to be in those set of circumstances. There's other
Speaker 1: than others that need help. But according to Military Times,
Speaker 1: there's about thirty seven thousand homeless veterans um and that's
Speaker 1: as that number is as recent as this year, that
Speaker 1: who need help. But then you see individuals who come
Speaker 1: into the country and in some cases illegally, and there's
Speaker 1: billions of dollars being spent um for them to take
Speaker 1: care of them. But it doesn't seem to be that
Speaker 1: same level of urgency for those those who actually serve
Speaker 1: the country. Is that something that you've noticed. I think
Speaker 1: that um organism of MEMBIS say agencies, let me say
Speaker 1: agencies tend to rely on the systems that they put
Speaker 1: in place to support those of us who serve. Like
Speaker 1: the v A administration, they like you can go to
Speaker 1: the Viet Well, not everybody is eligible for VA benefits,
Speaker 1: and so sometimes I think that the aside is, well,
Speaker 1: we have services for veterans already, we have programs for
Speaker 1: veterans already, and so the space created and systems created
Speaker 1: to support veterans, then UM, they have to do their
Speaker 1: diligence to ensure that these veteran pandemics, if you will,
Speaker 1: or veteran concerns or issues that are prevalent are reduced,
Speaker 1: thus leaving time for other people to to be concerned
Speaker 1: about UM, immigration, all the other aspects that that you
Speaker 1: you speak of. And so I think that's what happens, UM,
Speaker 1: that it's kind of a pass off to the v
Speaker 1: A or other systems in place. UM, homelessness among that
Speaker 1: veteran population, UM, as you stated, has grown. And I
Speaker 1: would say also, then if you consider during Vietnam, the
Speaker 1: Vietnam era, how service members were treated when they came home,
Speaker 1: in addition to the segregation that still existed in the country,
Speaker 1: and to say, well there they want to stay on
Speaker 1: the street, Well, you didn't receive me, then, so why
Speaker 1: why should I go and get your help now? And
Speaker 1: I know, I know I've worked with quite a few
Speaker 1: Vietnam veterans who have that statement. When I came home,
Speaker 1: I had to throw my uniform in the garbage because
Speaker 1: of how people treated me or African American veterans, the
Speaker 1: discrimination that they dealt with in returning home, and so
Speaker 1: why would I if I am home with why would
Speaker 1: I want to go to a system that has already
Speaker 1: abandoned me? And pity there and and and the point
Speaker 1: of and I understand that period of time were certainly
Speaker 1: in a much different period of time. However, however, even
Speaker 1: the referencing of the v A, we know how the
Speaker 1: v A was really failing veterans for many years. People
Speaker 1: people said, hey, we need to we're not getting the
Speaker 1: adequate care or that we should be getting at the
Speaker 1: v A v A hospital system or the v A
Speaker 1: system generally speaking. And that was one of the things
Speaker 1: that needed to be fixed. And I think that fixing
Speaker 1: of it came around tween I believe it was. And
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's still much more work to be done,
Speaker 1: no no doubt about that. But do you feel, uh,
Speaker 1: in your opinion the current VA system is effective at
Speaker 1: providing the care that our veterans need. It depends on
Speaker 1: which VIA you go to. And I'm not gonna lie
Speaker 1: about that. I'm talking as a veteran now. I have
Speaker 1: heard so many stories, um from fellow veterans whether they're
Speaker 1: clients or colleagues, about the va system and how they
Speaker 1: function to operate when I've had my own share of experiences,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, UM, So I think that it
Speaker 1: depends on the administration at that particular v A and
Speaker 1: how they operate. That does make a huge difference, UM
Speaker 1: in the type of service. Now, how service improved over time?
Speaker 1: I would say from my own experiences and use of
Speaker 1: the v A, it has changed quite dramatically. I'm quite
Speaker 1: a bit UM to the degree where if providers are available,
Speaker 1: UM they have community care where you can see a provider,
Speaker 1: a civilian provider, but UM be a connected provider in
Speaker 1: the community to receive services. Did they have that prior
Speaker 1: to to I think this they started with the Choice
Speaker 1: program a few years ago. This was after I came
Speaker 1: back from deployment, so this is before they didn't have this.
Speaker 1: So you're talking about level of care, quality of care,
Speaker 1: waiting time. Do I have appointments that I can't get
Speaker 1: into until August and it's May Yes, I do absolutely
Speaker 1: that happens. UM. Is it the failure of the system
Speaker 1: or that them lacking care? I don't think it's a
Speaker 1: lack of care. I think it's just how administrations are
Speaker 1: able to maintain uh, theirs, their systems, their staff, UM
Speaker 1: and what's happening UM. So there are two different parts.
Speaker 1: There's the administrative part and then there's the care of
Speaker 1: the veteran when they're entering in that space. Am I
Speaker 1: respected in care for when I go to the v A,
Speaker 1: when I go to my appointments in women's health and
Speaker 1: ignore all the other things, I'm okay when I received good,
Speaker 1: great care from my providers. Have there been times whe
Speaker 1: I didn't receive quality service? Absolutely, And that's where they
Speaker 1: have patient advocates and you can enquire and inform and
Speaker 1: let them know about a service or something that does
Speaker 1: not meet UM, your expectation as as a veteran. So there,
Speaker 1: while the system really had some issues, I do see
Speaker 1: some progress being made in terms of the care I receive.
Speaker 1: I do have other colleagues who are not getting the
Speaker 1: same care, and I'm I'm an advocate, and so I say,
Speaker 1: you can ask for the services that you need. You
Speaker 1: can inquire, you can educate this provider on military culture
Speaker 1: because sometimes they don't know UM. You can correct them
Speaker 1: if some statement is made that impacts your care. So
Speaker 1: there are these layers around the systems that do exist.
Speaker 1: The other part to what you're saying are the veterans
Speaker 1: that are in the spaces with other veterans right and
Speaker 1: sometimes the that behavior or what occurs is not managed
Speaker 1: and creates other issues or other problems. But um again,
Speaker 1: you have advocates in the space that you can report
Speaker 1: to to ensure you're kept safe or if you have
Speaker 1: concerns around those, as much as you do with the staff. Now,
Speaker 1: if you could reform the system, the v a system,
Speaker 1: that is what reforms which you you make. I would
Speaker 1: make reforms to better care for women veterans, better holistic
Speaker 1: care for women veterans. Military sexual trauma seems to be
Speaker 1: the buzzword that lingers around we're talking about women veterans.
Speaker 1: That's not the only type of care that is necessary
Speaker 1: for women that as some of us have really high
Speaker 1: functioning careers, um and and professions which require us to
Speaker 1: maintain a certain level of what we call in a
Speaker 1: military operation tempo very heightened and so to understand and
Speaker 1: what have military service impacts not just the sexual trauma survivor,
Speaker 1: but the combat veteran, the person who witnessed trauma, heard
Speaker 1: about trauma, UM all those other things, especially women veterans,
Speaker 1: is significantly important. I would add those pieces to the administration,
Speaker 1: not just for women veterans, but for maale veterans as well,
Speaker 1: because sometimes that's missed. UM. I will offer an aspect.
Speaker 1: I would include an aspect of holistic care, which includes
Speaker 1: not just trauma treatment but basic life reentry, if you will.
Speaker 1: I as a veteran, I serve I also have PTSD
Speaker 1: and from complex traumas connected to the military, and it
Speaker 1: isn't It has become very important to me that individuals
Speaker 1: are aware that while one might be diagnosed, the diagnosis
Speaker 1: is not a frame of reference for who they are
Speaker 1: and they're being uh. In fact, people are still able
Speaker 1: to function in a very specific way in their careers.
Speaker 1: And so I would offer to the v A programs
Speaker 1: or services or can have them consider how do we
Speaker 1: support those individuals as well, because that's often the stereotype
Speaker 1: goes that if you're a veteran with PTSD, then you
Speaker 1: are like this. And I think I'm very clear that
Speaker 1: I'm a veteran with PTSD, and I have a service dog,
Speaker 1: and I function like this and so right and and
Speaker 1: I can articulate well, and I can advocate for myself,
Speaker 1: and I can do all of those high functioning things.
Speaker 1: I still have PTSD, and don't let the diagnosis treat
Speaker 1: allow you to treat me less. And throughout our country,
Speaker 1: our country's history, those who have been diagnosed with PTSD,
Speaker 1: they are in some respects treated like their throwaway's, like
Speaker 1: you're unable to fully function and be a part of
Speaker 1: our society. It's almost like, oh man, it's sadly person
Speaker 1: at p PTSD. When you know, you look at places
Speaker 1: like Chicago where there's and obviously military services the print,
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of people who are walking around
Speaker 1: with PTSD and don't even know it. Mm hmmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's community trauma, you know, as you know impacted by that,
Speaker 1: I mean exposure to violence. PTSD is not just what
Speaker 1: you did about what you witnessed and also heard. So
Speaker 1: I don't think people understood the criterion of PTSD um
Speaker 1: they were also understand and by curious trauma and all
Speaker 1: those other aspects of it. So there are many layers
Speaker 1: two to this and to your questions like what would
Speaker 1: I infuse into the v A system. I would infuse that, like,
Speaker 1: let's do some community work around people understanding and understanding
Speaker 1: PTSD and this in this wholeness, not just in the
Speaker 1: part where you're a veteran you went off the combat.
Speaker 1: Yes you have PTSD, but other people who experience other
Speaker 1: types of trauma have to work really hard to prove
Speaker 1: that those are their traumas. What interesting dichonomy that is
Speaker 1: being in those spaces? Well, before I let you go,
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you, because we're family and you've
Speaker 1: seen me since obviously I was a little kid. Uh,
Speaker 1: what if you could give people who are listening, because
Speaker 1: folks are interesting interested in you know, my background, how
Speaker 1: I grew up, and of course I talked about it
Speaker 1: in the book Taking for Granted, But what would you
Speaker 1: say about me then and now? What would your your
Speaker 1: overarching concise analysis be. M I I'm gonna pause on
Speaker 1: this because my heart just fluttered out of out of
Speaker 1: my love for you and my respect for your path
Speaker 1: and your journey. And I think people assume a lot
Speaker 1: and take for granted, not not to pull away from
Speaker 1: your book, but to plug it. Um for granted, um
Speaker 1: your story and your why, you're why. I'm privy to
Speaker 1: the why and to the story. So I get that,
Speaker 1: I get the whole picture that is you. Um, but
Speaker 1: people who meet you and are impressed and you do
Speaker 1: have a lasting impression. But to feel the energy of
Speaker 1: your story behind how you move and how you function,
Speaker 1: and how you operate and why you move and why
Speaker 1: you operate and why you function the way that you do.
Speaker 1: It's not because you are your story. It's because you
Speaker 1: have a story to tell. And I assume that sometimes
Speaker 1: people either will want to put you in the past
Speaker 1: with your narrative or in the presence of where they
Speaker 1: want you to be or see you, and you are
Speaker 1: living in your now and to experience you and your now.
Speaker 1: That is what gives great honor to these authentic connections
Speaker 1: that you have with others where they begin to understand
Speaker 1: a little bit more of you as you permit them to.
Speaker 1: That they respect your journey, which includes your story, but
Speaker 1: they're also open to the next chapters as you have
Speaker 1: them be not the way they need you to be.
Speaker 1: And I think that knowing how proud you are and
Speaker 1: not in pride of who you are as a person,
Speaker 1: and in always discovering your becoming to honor that not
Speaker 1: as an insecurity, that is the value that's driven by
Speaker 1: your longing for more, more growth, more understanding, more wisdom,
Speaker 1: and to share that with others who are open to
Speaker 1: receiving it with open arms, not close fist like they're
Speaker 1: wanting to fight you for it. Um. And so I've
Speaker 1: seen how you've been with family, I've seen how you've
Speaker 1: been with me in my journey with trauma and PTSD,
Speaker 1: and I can say you're a delicate heart, um, and
Speaker 1: you're a golden smile and the sun that shines through
Speaker 1: you that like that shines through you. I hope people
Speaker 1: always see that and respect it and not make assumptions
Speaker 1: about it, and honor you, your narrative, your story, your
Speaker 1: journey for that. But you have grown into this beautiful soul.
Speaker 1: You've always had a beautiful soul, but you've grown into
Speaker 1: this very strong man of substance. And that makes me proud. Wow,
Speaker 1: that was that was pretty profound. Thank you, Thank you
Speaker 1: for sharing. And I feel like I just went to
Speaker 1: counseling with Dr Ola Antonia. Thank you for everything you
Speaker 1: you mean to me, and you've been with me through
Speaker 1: some of the more interesting phases of life. And I
Speaker 1: appreciate your love, your commitment to always pushing me forward
Speaker 1: and just being someone that I count on is one
Speaker 1: of my closest and years. So I love you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me as such an honor to
Speaker 1: have you on here, and thank you for all all
Speaker 1: of what you do for yourself and your fellow veterans.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining out Loud with Gianno called Weell.
Speaker 1: I want to thank dr Oland Antoyan Haines again for
Speaker 1: a great interview. If you're enjoying the show, please leave
Speaker 1: us a review and radis for fos stars on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1: If you have any questions for me, please email me
Speaker 1: at The out Loud at Ginger Street sixty dot com
Speaker 1: and I'll try to answer them in our episodes. And
Speaker 1: please sign up for my monthly newsletter at Ginger Street
Speaker 1: sixty dot com Slash out Loud. You can also follow
Speaker 1: me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and palmer at Giano Caldwell.
Speaker 1: And if you're interested in learning more about my story,
Speaker 1: you please pick up a copy of my bestselling book
Speaker 1: title Taken for Granted, How Conservatism Can Win Back to
Speaker 1: Americans The Liberalism Failed. Special things to our producer John Cassio,
Speaker 1: researcher Aaron Kleinman and executive do so. There's Debbie Myers
Speaker 1: and speaker new Gingwich, all part of the Inglish three
Speaker 1: sixty network.