1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 3: My name is Robert Lamb and my name is Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 2: And it is that time again. Sometimes we don't get 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 2: around to these till November, but this year we're hitting 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: them fresh off of the shelf. The winners were just 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 2: announced last Thursday evening. I believe it is time wants 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: more to discuss some of the winners for this year's 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 2: Ignobel Prizes. Now, if you're not familiar with these, if 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 2: you haven't been listening to the show that long, or 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 2: maybe you just need a reminder. The ig Nobels are 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: a series of awards given out once a year by 13 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 2: a scientific humor journal named the Annals of Improbable Research, 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 2: edited for many years now by Mark Abrahams, and their 15 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 2: stated purpose is to quote honor achievements that first make 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: people laugh and then make them think. We always have 17 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 2: a great time with these. You can learn more about 18 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: them at Improbable dot com. They have a big one 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: pager there where you can go through all of the 20 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 2: winners throughout the years. There's a lot of amusing stuff. 21 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 3: In there that's right, and they feature works that are 22 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 3: funny for different reasons. Sometimes the papers that get selected 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 3: for prizes are things that are supposed to be funny, 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 3: like they are intentionally satirical. One that often comes to 25 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 3: mind is a paper we covered on the raiology of cats, 26 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 3: meaning the study of how cats flow our cats a 27 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 3: liquid or a solid. But more often these are just 28 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 3: real scientific experiments that are straightforward science in one way 29 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 3: or another, published in real scientific journals that happen to 30 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 3: have some weirdly funny either methodology, the format of the 31 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: experiment is funny, or the finding of the experiment is funny. 32 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it varies greatly. It depends on what 33 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: the subject matter is, the methodology, and yet your point, 34 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 2: sometimes it is something that was intended to be more 35 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: overtly satirical. And then also the other thing that's worth 36 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: driving home here, and this will become very apparent as 37 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: we get into some of the winners we're discussing and 38 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: from this year, is that sometimes these are fairly recent 39 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 2: studies that have recently made it through even the mainstream 40 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 2: news cycle because they are kind of giggle inducing. But 41 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: other times they dig deeper and they get stuff that's 42 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 2: decades old. So you know, it's not necessary, it's not 43 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: as timely as some awards shows might be. But the 44 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: results are always interesting, you know, sometimes they really pull 45 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: out a deep cut. Now, in the past, we've been 46 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 2: covering these for many years. In the past, we've tried 47 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: to cover all of the winners, or a vast majority 48 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: of the winners. I don't think we're doing that this year. 49 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: I think we're probably just going to cover some of 50 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 2: the winners, some of the ones that jump out to 51 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: us the most, that would be the most fun for 52 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 2: us to chat about. But again, if you want to 53 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: read the fullest of awards from this year and check 54 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: out all of the research that got highlighted this year's awards, here, 55 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: you can go to the Journal's web website. Again, that 56 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 2: is improbable dot com. 57 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 3: Robert, you all right, if I kick things off with 58 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 3: this year's Physiology Prize. 59 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 2: Yes, give the people what they want. 60 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 3: Trivia question, how many different holes in your body can 61 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 3: you breathe through? 62 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: Take your time think about it. 63 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 3: I had to think, and I was like, I'm pretty 64 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 3: sure the answer is three. Right, I got mouth, nostril, nostril, 65 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 3: any other serious ones, And I think that's it now. 66 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 3: Of course, these three orifices do not represent fundamentally different 67 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 3: ways of breathing. They're just different doorways to the exact 68 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 3: same hallway, right. They're all different openings that lead to 69 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 3: the same exchange machinery. In the lungs, of course, the 70 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 3: cells in our bodies need oxygen for cellular respiration. Oxygen 71 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 3: is used to break down the energy containing molecules that 72 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 3: we get from food to generate a tendency in triphosphate 73 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 3: or ATP, which powers our bodies at the cellular level. 74 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 3: This respiration process in the cells, of course, requires a 75 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 3: constant supply of incoming oxygen, and it generates carbon dioxide 76 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 3: as a primary waste product, which is also exchanged through 77 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 3: the lungs purged when we breathe out. So, yes, these 78 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 3: three holes are the normal three ways you get oxygen 79 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 3: into the lungs and carbon dioxide out. But here's a 80 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 3: perhaps tougher trivia question. Can any of our body cells 81 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 3: get their oxygen from anywhere other than the lungs. The 82 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 3: surprising answer to this one is yes. Now, the proportion 83 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 3: of our cells that can do this is relatively small. 84 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 3: Most of our cells rely on oxygen delivered through the 85 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 3: blood stream from the lungs to perform cellular respiration. So 86 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 3: don't start thinking you don't need your lungs. But it's 87 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 3: true that some cells in our bodies acquire oxygen by 88 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 3: passive diffusion from the surrounding air. Unsurprisingly, these tend to 89 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 3: be cells on the outsides of our bodies, so the 90 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 3: very outermost layer of our skin, cells in the top 91 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 3: quarter of a millimeter or so, or maybe a little 92 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 3: bit deeper. Also, the cells on the outside front of 93 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 3: our eyeballs, according to what I was reading, gets some 94 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 3: amount of oxygen from the surrounding air. This would be 95 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 3: cells in the tissue known as the cornea. And it's 96 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 3: especially important here for the cornea not to be completely vascularized, 97 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 3: not to be supplied with blood vessels, because we have 98 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 3: to see through the lens of our eyes covering the 99 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 3: pupil in order to get the light in onto the retina. 100 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 3: You can imagine it might be a little distracting if 101 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 3: the lenses of your eyes were full of blood vessels. 102 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 3: To supply all those cells with freshly oxygenated blood. 103 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 2: Well, this seems like a refreshingly mature subject area for 104 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: the ignobells to have focused on here something about our 105 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: cornea is breathing. Yeah, I like it. 106 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 3: That's not what this prize is about. So this year's 107 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 3: Physiology prize was awarded to and I apologize if I 108 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 3: pronounced anybody's name wrong, but two a list of authors 109 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 3: including Riyo Okabe, Toyo, Toyofumi, f Chin Yoshikawa, Yosuke Yoonoyama, 110 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 3: yo Hey Yokoyama, Satona Tanaka, Akihiko Yoshizawa, Wendy L. Thompson, 111 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: Gokul khanan Aji Kobayashi, Hiroshi Daate, and Takanori takebe four 112 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 3: discovering that many mammals are capable of breathing through their anus. 113 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 3: All right, there it is now. This paper was published 114 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 3: in the Journal MED in May or June of twenty 115 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 3: twenty one. I've seen different citations on that. In the 116 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 3: spring of twenty twenty one, whenever that issue was and 117 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 3: I was reading several supplementary sources to get some background 118 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 3: and explanation on their findings. And so these sources include 119 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 3: a commentary piece also published in the Journal MED, sort 120 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 3: of explaining the background and significance of this main research paper. 121 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 3: The commentary piece was by a Yale gastroentrology fellow named 122 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 3: Caleb Kelly. This was published along with the paper and 123 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 3: the same issue, I believe, And then also I was 124 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 3: reading a New York Times article reporting on the findings 125 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 3: and including some interviews. This was by Elizabeth Preston from 126 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 3: May twenty twenty one. So I think this paper is 127 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 3: a bullseye in terms of the Ignobel's goal of making 128 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 3: people laugh and then making them think, yes, it is 129 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 3: about breathing through your butt, but it sent me down 130 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 3: a lot of interesting trails and it may turn out 131 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 3: to have quite real medical significance. So the procedure that 132 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 3: they're going to be describing in this paper is being 133 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 3: called EVA or EVA, which stands for interial ventilation via anus. 134 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 3: Shout out to all the people named EVA or AVA. 135 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 3: If this becomes a part of the common medical parlance, 136 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 3: you're just gonna have to deal with. 137 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: It, yea. It might have to bust out full Evelyn 138 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: or whatever. 139 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. So Caleb Kelly in the commentary piece makes an 140 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 3: interesting observation about this, which is that, yes, it's funny 141 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 3: to think about breathing via the anus. But Kelly writes, 142 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 3: quote initial perception of AVA is likely to parallel that 143 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 3: of fecal microbiota transplant for recurrency deficial infection, which not 144 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: long ago was deemed untenable for quote practical and esthetic reasons, 145 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 3: but now has less stigma as data supporting effectiveness are overwhelming. 146 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 3: So this is talking about another medical discovery in recent 147 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 3: decades that was once considered much more weird and shocking 148 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 3: the use of fecal microbiota transplants literally transplanting poop from 149 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 3: one person's digestive system into another and carrying along with 150 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 3: it all of the microbiota that live on it, transplanting 151 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: that into the digestive system of somebody who has maybe 152 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 3: an antibiotic resistant infection by the Bacterium seed officile. This 153 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 3: was once considered a fairly crazy treatment idea, but now 154 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 3: it is widely used and is considered generally very effective. 155 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 3: So could ventilation via the anus one day have a similar. 156 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: Arc Yeah, I mean it's possible, because yeah, I remember 157 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 2: when the idea of fecal transplants was more of this 158 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 2: kind of like fringy. Oh my goodness, imagine imagine if 159 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: this became standard, and now it pretty much has. You know, 160 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: it's not that crazy of an idea, So I don't 161 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 2: know it's possible. I mean, the thing is if it 162 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 2: ultimately works and it helps save lives, that you know, 163 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: that's going to make all the difference. 164 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: So the New York Times article and this included some 165 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: quotes from one of the lead authors of the study, 166 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 3: doctor Takanori Takebe of the Tokyo Medical and Dental University, 167 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 3: who apparently got the idea to work on this after 168 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 3: experiencing his father fighting lung disease. And of course part 169 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 3: of the problem is, you know, when a patient's lungs 170 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 3: are failing, a hospital will usually try to use a 171 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 3: mechanical ventilator to help keep the patient alive and keep 172 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 3: their tissues oxygenated. But there are cases where this solution 173 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 3: either isn't available or isn't appropriate. One example they cite 174 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 3: is the horrible event that there was a there was 175 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: a mass shortage of mechanical ventilators during the early COVID 176 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 3: nineteen pandemic. So of course mechanical ventilators are a finite resource, 177 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 3: but also there are other complications. This is a point 178 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 3: made by Kelly in that commentary piece. Kelly writes, quote, 179 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 3: even if mechanical ventilation is available. In severe disease, gas 180 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 3: exchange may be impaired to the degree that oxygenation is inadequate. 181 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: So in some cases you may be able to actually 182 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 3: use a mechanical ventilator to pump into the lungs, but 183 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 3: you still will not be able to get enough oxygen in. 184 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 3: And so Kelly says quote, faced with this situation, extra 185 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 3: corporeal membrane oxygenation is a technology that can temporarily replace 186 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 3: the functions of the heart and lungs, providing forward flow 187 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 3: of blood and gas exchange using an external apparatus. And 188 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 3: if you've never seen this, this is like a type 189 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 3: of machine that essentially does the job of the heart 190 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 3: and lungs outside of the body. They hook up an 191 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 3: artery in a vein to this machine and it pumps 192 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: the blood through, oxygenates it, and then returns it to 193 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 3: the body. But Kelly goes on to say, quote yet, 194 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 3: extra corporeal membrane oxygenation has inherent risks, requires significant outlay 195 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 3: of human labor and financial resources, and therefore availability is limited. 196 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 3: So the question is what if the EVA the ventilation 197 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 3: through the anus approach could help increase the range of 198 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 3: options available when a patient has failing lungs. So the 199 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 3: Times article gets into the question of how did this 200 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 3: idea come about? Doctor Takeba had Apparently he had previously 201 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 3: experimented with using stem cells to try to grow new 202 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 3: auxiliary organs like tiny lungs, but branching out of this, 203 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 3: he instead got the idea of using body organs that 204 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 3: we already have organs other than the lungs to provide 205 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 3: oxygen to our blood. Now, the inspiration for this, I 206 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 3: thought was very interesting. It was a bit of inspiration 207 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 3: from the animal kingdom. Takeba cited the example of a 208 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 3: fish called a loach. So a loach is any fish 209 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 3: from a family of freshwater fishes also known as the 210 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 3: kobitidy or cobitidoids. They're often fairly elongated, and some species 211 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 3: kind of look a little bit like snakes or eels 212 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 3: because they're kind of long, but they're fish. Like most fish, 213 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 3: Loaches primarily breathe with their gills, so they use the 214 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 3: gills these, you know, these sort of thin booklike surfaces, 215 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 3: to extract dissolved oxygen from the water around them. But 216 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 3: they have a backup method for getting extra oxygen if 217 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 3: they need it. Loaches can stick their heads up out 218 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 3: of the water and take a bite out of the atmosphere. 219 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 3: So they don't have lungs. They can't normally breathe through 220 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 3: their mouths like we can. Instead, a loach uses its 221 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 3: mouth to take in and swallow a mass of air. 222 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 3: Swallow the air into its digestive system, and that bubble 223 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 3: of air goes down into the digestive tract and then 224 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 3: the walls of the fishes intestines absorb extra oxygen from 225 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 3: the air that the fish eat. 226 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 2: Oh wow, they really are eating air. 227 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 3: Yeah. I loved this fact and I didn't know about 228 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 3: this before. So the article sites of biologists talking about 229 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 3: these fish. The biologist is Jonathan Mark Wilson, who is 230 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: on faculty at Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Canada, and 231 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 3: Wilson says like, sometimes a loach will be trapped in 232 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 3: some kind of situation where the oxygen in the water 233 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 3: around it is not sufficient the oxygen that it will 234 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 3: normally get from its gills. So one example of this 235 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 3: would be if it is stuck in a pond or 236 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 3: even a puddle with low amounts of oxygen due to overcrowding. 237 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 3: There might be a lot of animals or other fish 238 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 3: in the water, and they're extracting a lot of the oxygen, 239 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 3: so it can't get enough with its gills. It has 240 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 3: this air eating method to get extra oxygen from the environment. 241 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 3: So that's a fish obviously fairly different biology than mammals 242 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: like us. But Ta Keba and colleagues wondered could a 243 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 3: mammals intestines do the same thing get oxygen from air 244 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 3: or even pure oxygen gas inserted into the digestive system. 245 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: So initial experiments showed that when mice were deprived of oxygen, 246 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 3: if you stuck an oxygen pump up the anus, it 247 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: did actually work. But in order for it to work well, 248 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 3: in order for it to work optimally, the researchers had 249 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 3: to sort of inflict little abrasions on the mucous membrane 250 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 3: of the intestinal wall, so when the wall was thinned, 251 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 3: the oxygen was absorbed better. Obviously, that's not ideal. Having 252 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 3: to scrape the inside of your colon or your intestines 253 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 3: to help you absorb anally supplied air is not the best. 254 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 3: So they came up with the second idea. Instead of 255 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 3: supplying O two in its gas form, what about a 256 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 3: liquid enema containing oxygen. 257 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, you're for science fiction fans out there. 258 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: This would of course be the same technology that the 259 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 2: deep divers are supposed to be using in James Cameron's 260 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: The Abyss. 261 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 3: Oh yes, yeah. 262 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: Except that this would be in the other end of 263 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: the suit. Obviously, that's right. 264 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 3: So the researchers here experimented with I don't know if 265 00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: they name the chemical in the ABYSS, I don't recall, 266 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 3: but what they're working with here is a type of 267 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: perfluorochemical which exists in liquid form but is able to 268 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 3: absorb and carry gases, especially oxygen. Specifically, the chemical that 269 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 3: they used in this experiment was called perfluorodecyln or PFD, 270 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 3: which Kelly explains in his commentary. He says, it's a 271 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 3: it's a hydrocarbon where you strip the hydrogen atoms out, 272 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 3: you swap them with fluorine, which allows this fluid to 273 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: buckle in a bunch of oxygen, carry a lot of 274 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 3: oxygen along with it, and it is such a remarkable 275 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 3: oxygen delivery device. Here's here's more. The ABYSS style image 276 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 3: that experiments in the nineteen sixties showed that you could 277 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 3: take unconscious anesthetized mice and you could dunk them under 278 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 3: I was going to say underwater. It's not water under. 279 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 3: Submerge them in this fluid for hours and they would 280 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 3: breathe the liquid and they would survive. Apparently. It has 281 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 3: also been explored in various experiments as a potential platform 282 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 3: for artificial blood. We've talked about ideas about artificial blood 283 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 3: and episodes in the past. It is a long sought 284 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 3: type of prosthesis or medical device that has always been 285 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 3: somewhat elusive, and I think it for various reasons. There 286 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 3: were questions about whether it should continue to be pursued 287 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 3: as an artificial blood platform, but at least the idea 288 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 3: was there, and so the idea in this experiment was 289 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 3: try this stuff per fluorodecylin jacked full of oxygen, put 290 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 3: it up the anis into the colon to get extra 291 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 3: oxygen into the blood. And the experiment found, yes, it 292 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 3: did work. It worked with both mice and pigs that 293 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 3: were in a hypoxic state, meaning they were deprived of oxygen. 294 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 3: They were supplied with oxygen packed per flora chemicals in 295 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 3: this solution via the anis, and it signified bagantly improved 296 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 3: their levels of blood oxygen. There were also behavioral markers, 297 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 3: like the mice that had been inactive due to low 298 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 3: oxygen got up and started walking around again. However, there 299 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 3: are some important limitations to consider. One is time. So 300 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 3: Kelly in his commentary piece writes, quote, promising results are 301 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 3: also reported using a porcine model, meaning a pig model, 302 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: in which mean improvement in oxygenation after EVA innima persists 303 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 3: for eighteen point seven minutes. Thus, in current form, this 304 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 3: therapy requires repeated cycling of fluid, and the potential of 305 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 3: EVA is in short term treatment of hypoxia, so that 306 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 3: means it only lasts a short while, and in order 307 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 3: to keep getting continued effects and keep oxygenating the body 308 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 3: and the blood via the anus, you would have to 309 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 3: keep cycling in new fluid. Another thing to consider is 310 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 3: that breathing fulfills two extramely important jobs at the same time. 311 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 3: It brings in oxygen that your cells need, and it 312 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 3: also purges carbon dioxide that your cells have to get 313 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 3: rid of. And these early results showed more promise with 314 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 3: providing oxygen than with purging CO two. You have to 315 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 3: do both, and so Kelly writes, quote, EVA appears to 316 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 3: be more efficient at oxygen delivery than carbon dioxide removal, 317 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 3: and one can quibble that ventilation is an overstatement. Yet 318 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 3: the liquid used in EVA has capacity to carry carbon dioxide, 319 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 3: and the experiments presented test its effectiveness in hypoxia rather 320 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 3: than hypercarbiam models. So that's the thing. I guess left 321 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 3: yet to explore whether it could be effective at removing 322 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 3: carbon dioxide as well. Okay, there are other important complications 323 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 3: to consider, and Kelly mentions these. I didn't initially think 324 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 3: of them, but this is a good kind of practice 325 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 3: for thinking about medical problems. You solve one problem, maybe 326 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 3: create another. So the surface epithelium of the colon is 327 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,479 Speaker 3: adapted to have low exposure to oxygen. That's just its 328 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 3: natural state. There's not usually a lot of oxygen getting 329 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 3: in there, and it's unclear if there would be any 330 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 3: negative consequences from exposing it to lots of unexpected oxygen. Also, 331 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 3: the gut is not just an organ, it is a world. 332 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 3: It's an inhabited world, and the inhabitants of that world 333 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 3: have great influence over us over our health. So would 334 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 3: anything happen to the microbial populations of the distal gut 335 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 3: if they were suddenly exposed to aerobic conditions instead of 336 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 3: their natural and aerobic conditions. 337 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 2: That's interesting. I mean, just spitballing here, but I mean 338 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 2: you could potentially have a situation where following this kind 339 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 2: of treatment, you would have to have something like fecal 340 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: transplant in order to repopulate the gut it. Indeed, if 341 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 2: this procedure did theoretically like mess with the microbiome to 342 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: some degree. 343 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, so that's a good thing to raise. Kelly says. 344 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 3: The authors did investigate this somewhat. They looked at they 345 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 3: tried to see if there were markers of toxic blooms 346 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 3: of gut microbiota by looking for a bacterial indotoxin called 347 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 3: a lipopolysaccharide in the blood of these animals, and they 348 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 3: did not observe any increases at least in these cases. 349 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 3: But Kelly writes, quote, it must be remembered, however, that 350 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 3: the models of acute hypoxia in the study do not 351 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 3: fully reflect the complex multisystem insults experienced by critically ill 352 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 3: patients that add infection, inflammation, and hypoperfusion. So it's saying, 353 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 3: you know, if we ever actually were to move to 354 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 3: human trials here. Often a person who's in a state 355 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 3: where they need supplemental oxiden might have a lot of 356 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 3: different things going wrong in their body all at the 357 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 3: same time that could make them especially vulnerable to maybe 358 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 3: changes in oxygenation of gut tissues that are not normally oxygenated, 359 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 3: or changing the microbial environment and possibly causing a flare 360 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 3: up of some kind of you know, toxic bacteria you 361 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 3: don't want. 362 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: That's a great point as well. 363 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, so in the end they're sort of saying about 364 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: these these counter considerations like this, you know, this is 365 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 3: not what the colon was meant to do. The distal 366 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 3: gut is not It can apparently breathe a little bit, 367 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 3: you can get some oxygen in there, that'll help out, 368 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 3: but that's not what it was you know, designed by 369 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 3: evolution to do. And so we don't really know what 370 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 3: the consequences would be of repurposing it in this way, 371 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 3: especially for prolonged periods. 372 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: Now, this should not hold James Cameron back though. If 373 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 2: there's a sci fi application here, explore it. I mean, 374 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: that is what science fiction is for, that's. 375 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 3: Right, So, yes, I fully support all kinds of storytelling 376 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 3: with sci fi butt breathing astronauts. I don't know how 377 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 3: that would it would ultimately cause them to like evolve 378 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 3: in different directions where they like have different ways of language, 379 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 3: where they maybe end up speaking through their butts. I 380 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,959 Speaker 3: don't know. But anyway, despite all these counter considerations, this 381 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 3: is a very fascinating and exciting early result. And you know, 382 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 3: some of the scientists quoted they said, like, obviously, we're 383 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 3: not at the human trial stage yet, we don't know 384 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 3: that this would be good for humans. But if it 385 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 3: did turn out to be a real way of additionally 386 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 3: supplementing oxygen, this could be a life saving thing in 387 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 3: many conditions. So we're not at the human trials yet, 388 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 3: but the fact that it worked in mammals like mice 389 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 3: and pigs is very promising and it may one day 390 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 3: become a way of getting extra oxygen to people who 391 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 3: badly need it. 392 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: Excellent. Yeah, I mean again, coming back to your point 393 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: about fecal transplants, they could very well be a situation 394 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 2: where people giggle today, but they giggle less and less 395 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: as the years go by. When if we realize that 396 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: this is an actual treatment that can be utilized to 397 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 2: save lives. 398 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 3: That's right, Especially I see quoted in the media. Kelly 399 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 3: was talking about this point that like, don't let the 400 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 3: weirdness of this make you dismiss the idea, he told 401 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 3: The Times quote it really should be the data rather 402 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 3: than our visceral reactions to the concept that guide us. 403 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 3: Well said, so we'll see if this ever goes anywhere, 404 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 3: and if it does, maybe one day you will you 405 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 3: will benefit from from breathing through the butt. 406 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 2: All right, Well, that was the Physiology Prize, and I 407 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 2: want to talk a little bit about the Biology Prize 408 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 2: from this year. This one is also a lot of 409 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 2: fun and it made me, you know, made me laugh, 410 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: but then also did true to the mission statement, make 411 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: me think a little bit more about about in this 412 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: case about dairy about the milking of because this particular 413 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 2: study that they honored this was in the Journal of 414 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 2: Dairy Science, and this one was from nineteen forty one, 415 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: so this is definitely an older study and we have 416 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 2: to sort of keep reminding ourselves of that this is 417 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: not like the cutting edge of research, but it is 418 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: historically interesting in like the research journey that dairy scientists 419 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 2: have been on. 420 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 3: Maybe the methods they employ are not the same ones 421 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 3: that would be used today. 422 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 2: Well, yes, one method in particular, which is really spelled 423 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 2: out in the initial write up on the prize. The 424 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 2: Biology Prize went to Fortace Elli and William E. Peterson 425 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: for exploding a paper bag next to a cat that's 426 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 2: standing on the back of a cow to explore how 427 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 2: and when cows spew their milk beautiful the paper was, 428 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: of course, was not titled that though the paper was 429 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 2: factors involved in the ejection of milk. Now, I think 430 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 2: you know everything you need to know really to know 431 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 2: why this is funny. And they apparently played it up 432 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 2: during the ceremony. They brought out a person in like 433 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: a big inflatable cow costume, and somebody brought out a 434 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: house cat got to set on top of the cow, 435 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 2: and I think they to somebody, look, I can you 436 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 2: can see from the image here or that I shared Joe, 437 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 2: that there is indeed a paper bag in one gentleman's belt. 438 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 2: I imagine that paper bag is about to be inflated 439 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 2: and then popped behind the cat. This was in fact 440 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 2: part of the methodology that was explored in this nineteen 441 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 2: forty one study. 442 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 3: I wonder if the cat behaved itself during the ceremony I. 443 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 2: Mean, I would doubt it would. I would be doubtful 444 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: if this cat behaved, and I'm doubtful that any cats 445 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 2: that they attempted to use during the experiment behaved. But 446 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 2: you know, this one's so, this one's obvious why this 447 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 2: one is funny, And I've I've long found the topic 448 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 2: and I guess the trope of animals upon animal to 449 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 2: be rather amusing. This is long entertained us. There's a 450 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 2: motif of a monkey riding a horse that has a 451 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 2: very long history in East Asia, where you know, on 452 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: top of just checking off all the general boxes for 453 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 2: cute and whimsical, it is also associated with austerity. It 454 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 2: has to do with similarities between the sounds of the 455 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 2: words for monkey and for high official, so it's based 456 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 2: in the world of Chinese homonyms. So the general idea 457 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 2: is that, you know, it captures a sense of rapid 458 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 2: advancement in one's work. But again, the basic concept has 459 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 2: vast cross cultural appeal. There's something strange and fascinating about 460 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: say a goat standing on the back of another animal, 461 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 2: which sometimes they you know, you can observe this happening, 462 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 2: or or monkeys jumping on the backs of any like 463 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 2: large or befores that sort of thing. And so when 464 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 2: I saw that one of the honored studies this year 465 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 2: revolved around around frightening a cat sitting atop of a cow, 466 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: I was instantly all in. Plus, it's ultimately a study 467 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 2: regarding animal lactation, which makes it even more perplexing at 468 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 2: first pass, Like, what could this post we have to 469 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 2: do with milking a cow? Why are you scaring a 470 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: cat on top of the cow? 471 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 3: I've got to know. 472 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, So a little background. This was again 473 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: a nineteen forty one dairy science paper, so it's kind 474 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 2: of a kind of a deep cut. Lead author Fortis 475 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 2: Eli was a professor and chairman of the Department of 476 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 2: Dairy Science at Ohio State University from nineteen forty seven 477 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 2: through sixty three, among other various jobs throughout his career. 478 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 2: So you know, this was a serious dairy science paper 479 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: of the time period. This was not a fluke. There's 480 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 2: nothing fringe about this. Basically, the stated reason for the 481 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 2: study is that cows and dairy herds will habitually let 482 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 2: down or hold up their milk, and that the physiological 483 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: factors involved were poorly understood at the time. Now I 484 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 2: had to look up the terminology here. According to the 485 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 2: Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, lactation is 486 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 2: the continuous secretion and storage of milk in the utter, 487 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: But milk ejection or let is a short term reflex 488 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 2: effect that can be inhibited by pain or fear, but 489 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 2: can be stimulated by proper care and animal husbandry. Still, 490 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 2: at least ten percent of secreted milk, they point out, 491 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 2: will be retained in the utter as residual milk. So 492 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 2: the study is all about better understanding what's going going 493 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 2: on here again in nineteen forty one, because as is obvious, 494 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 2: a humans relationship with the domesticated cow tends to center 495 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 2: around milk. How do we get the milk out of 496 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 2: the cow? What are the best conditions to get the 497 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 2: milk out of the cow? And of course this equation 498 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: changes throughout the history of our relationship with cattle because 499 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: as things get more industrialized things, you know, there's a 500 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: huge effort to streamline things, industrialize things. But then this 501 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: can bring in various complications that end up hurting your 502 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 2: ability to actually get milk out of the animal, you know, 503 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 2: for various reasons. So we'll get into here, but One 504 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 2: of the big ones, of course, is are you making 505 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 2: the animal stressed out? Are you making animal afraid? Because 506 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 2: this inevitably ends up impacting the production and quality of 507 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 2: their milk. And I know that for any of you 508 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 2: four h kids out there, this is like a big 509 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: This is as obvious as it gets. This is an 510 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 2: overstatement of the obvious. But I think a lot of 511 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,959 Speaker 2: us forget this. You know, we end up having this 512 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 2: kind of like video game idea of milking the cow, 513 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 2: where it's like, oh, here's cow, here's the milking process, 514 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 2: and it just equals milk. 515 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 3: It's basically it's like a soda fountain, you know, it 516 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 3: just distributes the milk. But no, like a cow is 517 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 3: an animal, and the and its milk production and yield 518 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 3: is going to be influenced by things like how it 519 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 3: feels about its environment. 520 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. So in this nineteen forty one paper they cite 521 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 2: a nerve stimulant study where a nerve stimulant was administered 522 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 2: to cattle, to dairy cows to see how this would 523 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 2: affect of their milk production. There's another study they side 524 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 2: that involves them milking of cats. It has nothing to 525 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 2: do with their use of a cat, But it is 526 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: interesting that cats come up a couple of times in 527 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 2: the article. There's another study that looks at lactating rats 528 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 2: and another that involves whales and dolphins. And this paper 529 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: and its initial experiments get pretty into the weeds on 530 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: the physiological details of what's going on with a cow's milking. 531 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: But to get into the meat of the study, at 532 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,239 Speaker 2: least as far as the igno bells are concerned, this 533 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 2: comes to a section on the effect of fright on 534 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: the ejection of milk. 535 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 3: The specific use of the word fright there makes me 536 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 3: think we're dealing with something a little a little more 537 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 3: acute than stress. 538 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so what basically they were like, Well, for the 539 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 2: purposes of this study that involves several different things. For instance, 540 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 2: they denervated the left half of the utters, so remove 541 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 2: nerves in order to be able to compare the different 542 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 2: sides during this experiment. So you know, there's a lot 543 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: going on here that just the vocation of the cat 544 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 2: doesn't capture. But it did definitely in its early stages 545 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 2: involve quote. The following frightening at first consisted in placing 546 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,719 Speaker 2: a cat on the cow's back and exploding paper bags 547 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 2: every ten seconds for two minutes later, the cat was 548 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 2: dispensed with as unnecessary. 549 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 3: Oh maybe that just mean they took it home, took it, 550 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 3: they didn't terminate the cat. 551 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: I think that I did not read that into it 552 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: at all. I mean one can. I can only imagine 553 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: they realized there were vast difficulties in getting a cat 554 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 2: to work with them for this study, because I guess 555 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 2: the idea here is you you scare the cat to 556 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 2: scare the cow, and or you scare both of them 557 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: at the same time, and the cat's fright will compound 558 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 2: the fright experienced by the cow. But then I guess 559 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 2: you're having to replace a cat that you've just terrified 560 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 2: every ten seconds for two minutes. And maybe that means 561 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 2: you've got to have multiple cats on hand, and cats 562 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 2: don't get along. So I just can't imagine how this 563 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: would work. It feels just very Sussian in its absurdity. 564 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 2: But I think the big take home here is that 565 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 2: they quickly realized, no, the exploding paper bag is sufficient, 566 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 2: Like we are scaring the cow regularly with the exploding 567 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: paper bag. The cat is just an unnecessary complication. 568 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 3: Wait, is there explanation anywhere why the cat was ever 569 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 3: included in the first place. Other I mean, I know, 570 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 3: like it just seems like, oh, that's even more to 571 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 3: deal with. 572 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 2: No, they don't really get into it. I think it's 573 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 2: just implied that this was perhaps that perhaps they thought 574 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 2: it was necessary to actually have that fright stimuli, but 575 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,959 Speaker 2: then they quickly realized that this was enough. There's another 576 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 2: bit where they refer back to it and they say 577 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 2: sight and sound stimuli. Exploding bags seems to have a 578 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 2: much more pronounced effect as measured by the rate of 579 00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 2: milk ejection. 580 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm imagining an experiment today where they test what 581 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 3: happens when you wake people up with a vampire standing 582 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 3: at the foot of your bed. But it's not good 583 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 3: enough to just have the vampire. You've also got to 584 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 3: put a lizard on their arm. 585 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that sort of thing. Yeah. So again, this 586 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 2: was a fairly involved experiment or series of experiments. They 587 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 2: also injected some of the cows with adrenaline and other 588 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 2: substances to test things out. Now, one of the things 589 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 2: again about a study like this is that it's not current. 590 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 2: It stands more as a part of the history of 591 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 2: research into the topic, rather than some new advancement or 592 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 2: some glimpse into the future. But it seems to be 593 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 2: agreed upon that stressed or fearful cows produce the hormone 594 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 2: adrenaline and this counteracts the activity of oxytocin. It inhibits 595 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: the milk let down. I mean. And again this probably 596 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 2: comes back to something that is really long realized in 597 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 2: animal husbandry, and that is that you need to take 598 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 2: care of your farm animals and you don't want your 599 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 2: dairy cows to be afraid or nervous. You need to 600 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,800 Speaker 2: nurture a proper relationship with them. But again, I you 601 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 2: know what, you get the feeling that with the industrialization 602 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: of the farm, a lot of these things then have 603 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 2: to be relearned or you have to then go back 604 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 2: and realize, oh, this is why we always did it 605 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 2: this way, and if we are going to try and 606 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 2: mechanize this to varying degrees, we need to hold on 607 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 2: to these lessons from the past. Now, there have been 608 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 2: plenty more recent studies on callactation. Again, you know, dairy 609 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 2: remains a huge industry and there are always studies into 610 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 2: ways how to do it, you know, ways to do 611 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: it more efficiently, more humanely, and so forth. For instance, 612 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 2: there was a nineteen ninety nine study by Jay Russian 613 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 2: who they found that fears certain only plays a role 614 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,399 Speaker 2: in milk production, and they found that the fear can 615 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 2: can certainly revolve around humans in the cow's vicinity, and 616 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 2: it can also you can have a situation where fear 617 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 2: of individual handlers can impact milk yield. So you know, 618 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,439 Speaker 2: it's like cows often, I guess they can often feel 619 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 2: hard to read, at least for those of us who 620 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 2: are not involved in their care. And you can think, well, 621 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: they don't know what's going on, they don't know one 622 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 2: human from the next, But that doesn't seem to be 623 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 2: the case, and they can have certain associations with different humans. 624 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 2: And furthermore, they can they can have various fears and 625 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 2: anxieties around various containment systems, milking machines and so forth. Yeah, 626 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 2: I was looking at a write up for the University 627 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 2: of Minnesota Extension from twenty twenty three, or at least 628 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 2: that was like the update date on it by Marcia Indris, 629 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 2: and this author points out that the comfort of a 630 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,760 Speaker 2: dairy cow is of course very important to milk yield, 631 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 2: to milk quality, and much more. They need proper handling 632 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 2: and environment in order to deliver to their fullest, and 633 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 2: the author points out that above all, this is of 634 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 2: course just the right thing to do. And I really 635 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 2: appreciate this point that we domesticated cows for this purpose. 636 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: We took something wild and we made it into what 637 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 2: it is so that it could produce milk for us. 638 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 2: Not it's young, but another species that just likes that 639 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 2: milk and grows to depend them on that milk, And 640 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 2: so we should treat them right, like it's we kind 641 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 2: of they didn't really have much of a say in 642 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 2: this bargain, but this bargain was made, and we kind 643 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 2: of need to keep our end up. But then the 644 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 2: author here also stresses that a comfortable cow is a 645 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 2: cash cow and that I like this one was a 646 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 2: little more perplexing, but I think it also seems solid 647 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 2: that today's cows are like high performance athletes, which makes 648 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 2: them more sensitive to negative aspects of their environment or management. 649 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,760 Speaker 3: Well, I like that. So it's like, hey, we should 650 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 3: treat cows right because it's the right thing to do, 651 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 3: but also if you don't care, you better do it, 652 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:04,479 Speaker 3: or they're not going. 653 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 2: To give you the milk. 654 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 3: You need. 655 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 2: This also seems to be a certain commentary on the 656 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 2: way we treat high performance athletes like dairy cattle, like 657 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 2: like animals that we want a particular product out of which, 658 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 2: so maybe they're getting a little additional commentary in there. Yeah, 659 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 2: but yeah, this means factoring in quality human care, quiet 660 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 2: and peaceful environments. Proper resting space, head lunch space is 661 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 2: apparently very important. You know, it basically breaks down do 662 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 2: they have room to move their heads around soft stall 663 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 2: surfaces and again sensitive positive human handling. And again I'm 664 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 2: sure that those of you out there that grew up 665 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,879 Speaker 2: around cattle and have more experience with cattle and other 666 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 2: farm animals, you're just nodding your head to this because 667 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 2: this is a no brainer. But again, I think it's 668 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 2: easy to forget these realities. Yeah. 669 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 3: Well, a lot of people don't know anything about farms. 670 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean we go to great pains at 671 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 2: times to distance ourselves from the realities of the farms, 672 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 2: both the positive and the negatives, or the perceived negatives 673 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 2: and sometimes the outright negatives. Certainly when you get into 674 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 2: some practices. Now, this reminded me of something that I 675 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 2: had heard about, and I had to look it up because 676 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 2: I think a lot of this came from a splendid 677 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 2: table article or audio piece that I heard on NPR 678 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 2: back I think in twenty fourteen, so I had to 679 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 2: look it up again, and basically revolves around water buffalo milking. 680 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 2: So basically you may have heard this through in various 681 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 2: works over the years, but the water buffalos seem to 682 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 2: be an even more pronounced example of everything we've been 683 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 2: discussing here, so highly susceptible to fall offs due to 684 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 2: minor changes in their milking routine, like even apparently the 685 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 2: presence of strangers they're not used to. I've read elsewhere 686 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 2: that yeah, that in some traditions of milking water buffalo 687 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 2: there's like one designated person for the water b in question, 688 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 2: Like you don't just mix it up, not anybody can 689 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 2: do it. So it's almost like it needs to be 690 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 2: an even more special relationship between the human and the 691 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 2: animal in this situation. And I was looking at a 692 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 2: paper here by Mikou at all. This is water buffalo 693 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 2: responsiveness during milking Implications for production outputs, reproduction fitness, and 694 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 2: Animal Welfare from twenty twenty two published in the journal 695 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 2: Animals and this study backed up a lot of these 696 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 2: same principles, talking about how well there have been attempts 697 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 2: to do things like give them oxytocin injections to keep 698 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 2: them calm, but then this can introduce animal welfare concerns 699 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 2: and it can disrupt ovarian cycles. So they ultimately recommend that, Okay, 700 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 2: you can select for calmer water buffaloes. But at the 701 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 2: end of the day, I mean, it seems like you 702 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 2: are dealing with a more sensitive species and a species 703 00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 2: that is a little harder or maybe a lot hard 704 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 2: to industrialize, and so that is often held back efforts 705 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 2: or and or proposals to try and establish water buffalo 706 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 2: milk production more say in the United States. So I 707 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 2: don't know. Again, this is an example of where at 708 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 2: the top of it, I just found it funny that 709 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 2: serious researchers would place the cat on a cow back 710 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 2: and then slowly begin to inflate a brown paper bag 711 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 2: for science. But it, you know, it forced me to 712 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 2: sort of you know, realize, relearn, and you know, and 713 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,760 Speaker 2: learn for the first time some of these realities around 714 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 2: the relationship between the dairy cow and dairy farmer. 715 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,439 Speaker 3: I'm wondering, is the cat looking at them while they're 716 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 3: doing it, while they're like twisting off the end of 717 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 3: the bag and getting ready, are they making eye contact? 718 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 2: Like? I can't help but imagine that whoever's idea was 719 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 2: to use the cat had not really been around cats 720 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 2: that much and just assumed that this was possible. Because 721 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:01,879 Speaker 2: if you've been around cats, if you have a cat, 722 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,919 Speaker 2: you know that they don't cooperate with the slightest little thing. 723 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 2: And the idea that you're going to get them to 724 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 2: cooperate in a scientific experiment like this, no, it just 725 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 2: it was doomed to failure. And in this case, you know, certainly, 726 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 2: if not doomed to failure, they at least quickly realized 727 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 2: this is a totally unnecessary part of the experiment. We 728 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 2: can streamline this experiment and remove this wild variable from it. 729 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 3: Good thinking. These are professionals. 730 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I kind of want to look out for 731 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,800 Speaker 2: this in future studies, you know, cases where they were like, actually, 732 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 2: we realized that this was a bad idea. We streamline experience. 733 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 2: We did not need a cat involved. We did not 734 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,840 Speaker 2: need to have I don't know, some sort of a 735 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 2: you know Rube Goldberg machine spinning across the room. You 736 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 2: know you can simplify. It doesn't need to be It 737 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 2: doesn't need to be any more complex than it needs 738 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 2: to be. 739 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 3: Cut out the middle man. 740 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, we're gonna go ahead and uh close 741 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 2: out this episode, but we'll be back with another episode 742 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 2: on third in which we will look at a few 743 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 2: more of the winners from this year's Ignobel prizes. So 744 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 2: tune in on Thursday and see which ones we picked out. 745 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 2: We'll talk, we'll talk about it. In the meantime, We'll 746 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 2: just remind you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 747 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 2: primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on 748 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 2: Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays we do a short form episode, 749 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 2: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to 750 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,320 Speaker 2: just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 751 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 752 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 753 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 754 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hi, 755 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact stuff to Blow your 756 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 757 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 758 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 759 00:43:54,200 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.