1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: You're listening to Monster BTK, a production of iHeart Podcasts 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: and Tenderfoot TV. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 2: Now, what's my night terror? Somebody in my room on 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 2: top of me in bed, trying to kill me? 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 3: Why is that? 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 4: Well? 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: I mean I was scared. I was scared of the dark. 8 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 2: I was scared to go to the bathroom. This carried 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 2: over into college. 10 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 3: Why is that so? 11 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: I've talked to detectives, talked to trauma therapists. Nobody knows 12 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 2: how to fix this night terror of stuff, and nobody 13 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: knows why is it the bad guy in the room 14 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: try and kill me? 15 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 5: Do you feel like the bad guy is your dad? 16 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 3: Yeah? 17 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: My dad planned these things, premeditated these things. Was he 18 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: practicing that murder in our house? Was he practicing Cornerherston closets? 19 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 6: You're wondering if that feeling you had was maybe him 20 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 6: actually in your room in the closet. 21 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, some sort of suppressed memory where I was scared 22 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 2: shitless from my dad. Who's to say he wasn't doing 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 2: something in my bedroom. I just would rather know, Like 24 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 2: for me, I need to know, because once I know 25 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: that I can deal with it. You can divorce a spouse. 26 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,199 Speaker 2: You can't divorce a father. You can't just divorce your dad. 27 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 5: Did a part of you feel like you wanted to 28 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 5: make it better somehow. 29 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: I wanted to help him, Like I'm mad at you 30 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 2: when one second and I'm worried you're cold and dealing 31 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 2: with this blanket and this cold sell like I love you, 32 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 2: I still love you. 33 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: Do you still love him? 34 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 7: Oh? 35 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I told him that, and the letters 36 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: early on like I love you and I don't know 37 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: what's wrong, and I don't know why you did this, 38 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: and I wrote it and I was like, I'm so sorry, 39 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 2: Like I'm so sorry. Something must have happened to you. 40 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 2: You're just thinking, something awful must have happened to you 41 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 2: to turn you into this, and I'm so sorry. You 42 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 2: know that you're alone and that we're not with you. 43 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 8: Someone killed four members of a family. 44 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: Hedge vanished from her home suddenly last weekend. Her phone 45 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: lines had been cut, her door left open. 46 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 8: You see the victim playing there with plastic bags over 47 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 8: their heads, strangled. 48 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 9: You could tell it was a plan scenario. 49 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 10: Well, police have said no more about the contents of 50 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 10: the letter. It does contain some sort of threat and 51 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 10: implies the killer may strike again. 52 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 11: He's gonna play with these victims. He'd get him to 53 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 11: the point of death and then bring them back and 54 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 11: then brings them back to the point of death. 55 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 3: From My Heart Podcasts and Tenderfoot TV. I'm Susan Peters 56 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 3: and This is Monster BTK. On August eighteenth, two thousand 57 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 3: and five, Judge Gregory Waller sentenced Dennis Lynn Raider to 58 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 3: ten consecutive life terms. The sentence, a minimum of one 59 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 3: hundred and seventy five years without the chance for parole, 60 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 3: was the longest the judge could deliver. The next day, 61 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 3: August nineteenth, two thousand and five, Raider was taken from 62 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 3: the courthouse to the Eldedo Correctional Facility in Butler County, Kansas, 63 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 3: just thirty miles from Wichita. Our news station covered the 64 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 3: caravan from departure to arrival, and we were on scene 65 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 3: for the last sighting of Dennis Raider outside prison walls. 66 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 6: He is getting out of car right now. He's in 67 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 6: his orange jumpsuit. It looks as if his feet may 68 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 6: be shackled. He's walking in the prison right now. They 69 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 6: knocked in the door and there he is there. He 70 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 6: is inside that's it. 71 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 3: Closure is difficult for the families of Raider's victims. It 72 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 3: may never come. But on that day in August, at 73 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: the very least, we reveled in the peace of mind 74 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 3: that came with the closing of his cell door. 75 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 10: Unfortunately, through all of this and through the things that 76 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,679 Speaker 10: he has done, everyone was willing to listen because everyone 77 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 10: wanted to hear from the man that committed these crimes. 78 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 10: Now I think everyone is sick of what he has 79 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:39,799 Speaker 10: to say. 80 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 3: The reason we know so much about Dennis Rader is 81 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 3: because of his narcissism, his intense desire for publicity. And 82 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 3: while US locals had had our fill, there were others 83 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 3: who saw immense academic potential in studying Raider's mind. 84 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 12: When this opportunity came up, I had just completed a 85 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 12: book where I had looked back over the past century 86 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 12: of mental health experts who had taken extra time to 87 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 12: really learn about an extreme offender from the offender's point 88 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 12: of view. And I was in a prime position then 89 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 12: to do exactly the same thing. I had role models. 90 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 3: Throughout this season, we've heard the inside scoop on Rader 91 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 3: from forensic psychologist Catherine Ramsland in twenty ten, she began 92 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 3: a professional relationship with him, which culminated in the book 93 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 3: Confession of a serial Killer. The Untold Story of Dennis Rader, 94 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 3: the BTK serial Killer. 95 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 12: I did not approach Rader. What happened is when he 96 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 12: was arrested in two thousand and five, someone else had 97 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 12: approached him to write a book. She worked with him 98 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 12: for five years, corresponding thinking she was going to do this, 99 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:04,119 Speaker 12: and I saw her on Facebook and said, whatever happened 100 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 12: to your book? And she begged me to take it over. 101 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 12: I had to go through a process of being vetted 102 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 12: by the victims' families and the attorney he had signed 103 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 12: his life rights over to them through this other writer. 104 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 12: That took some time, a couple of years, and in 105 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 12: the meantime I got to know Rader by playing chess. 106 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 12: We'd write some letters. He wanted me to solve some 107 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 12: codes because he wanted to communicate with codes. So I 108 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 12: began to just kind of follow his lead. He would 109 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 12: write very long, like twenty page letters, and embedded in 110 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 12: these letters would be these codes and their meaning, and 111 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 12: I had to try to figure it out. Also, he 112 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 12: wanted to communicate that way to keep the guards from 113 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 12: knowing what he was talking about. That's kind of the 114 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 12: gatekeeper if you're not going to do the code thing 115 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 12: or not. 116 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 3: Going any further. 117 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 12: And then as all the legal stuff got into place, 118 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 12: we began to talk on the phone. The very first 119 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 12: time I spoke to on the phone an hour earlier, 120 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 12: my father died, so it was very numbing, but at 121 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 12: the same time it was a good weight into him 122 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 12: because he remembered his father dying. I think it invited 123 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 12: some warmth and compassion from him. As our first time 124 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 12: we're talking on the phone. 125 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 3: It feels jarring to hear ramseland talk about building compassion 126 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 3: between herself and Raider, but developing this relationship was integral 127 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 3: to her ability to study him. 128 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 12: The third way we got to know each other was 129 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 12: watching TV shows, which began to serve as metaphors for 130 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 12: his experience. He wanted me to watch Bates Motel and 131 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 12: The Americans, and I wanted him to watch The Walking Dead, 132 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 12: and so between those shows we would talk about the 133 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 12: characters in ways that demonstrated some of the things he 134 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 12: was trying to tell me, like with the Americans its 135 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 12: Soviet spies embedded in American culture and raising a family 136 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 12: and acting as if they're completely like everybody else, exactly 137 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 12: as he was doing. And he even thought of himself 138 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 12: as a spy or Bates Motel, which is about the 139 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 12: making of a serial killer, so whenever something would happen 140 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 12: in one of the shows, he would use that to 141 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 12: talk about his experience. 142 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 3: Ramsland wrote about Rader before she began working on Confession. 143 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 3: For instance, she mentioned him in her book Inside the 144 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 3: Minds of serial Killers, but her coverage never went into 145 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 3: this much depth. 146 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 12: Only when the opportunity came my way did I realize 147 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 12: what a unique opportunity it was, because he was not 148 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 12: like a typical serial killer. He was an outlier. I 149 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 12: get a lot of questions from mostly high school students, 150 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 12: asking what motivates a serial killer, and it's hard for me. 151 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 12: I just say it's not a criminal type. They each 152 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 12: have their own motivational spectrum, and you have to look 153 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 12: at the factors in their development to understand why they're 154 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 12: doing what they're doing, because it's different from one to another. 155 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 12: Even if you categorize them as sexually compelled serial killers, 156 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 12: there's still a lot of differences among them. I think 157 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 12: looking at the raw ingredients of any extreme offender's developmental 158 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 12: trajectory helps us with trying to understand at what points 159 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 12: in their life did something change, did a trigger to 160 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 12: violence become part of their perspective? What were some of 161 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 12: the factors and elements involved. So RADA was an opportunity 162 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 12: as an outlier to the thinking of the FBI to 163 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 12: find out what's going on here, what do we need 164 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 12: to know about this guy? 165 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 3: There were logistical challenges communicating with Radar in prison, As 166 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 3: Ramsland said earlier, their letters and phone calls were monitored. 167 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 12: I told him we need to have a coherent set 168 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 12: of codes if we're going to talk about some of 169 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 12: these things. And so I created the codes that we're 170 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 12: going to use. And I used a cave metaphor because 171 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 12: he liked caves, and he had this whole thing about 172 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 12: three being a magical number. So everything I did, like 173 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 12: three layers of soil, three types of plants, three types 174 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 12: of gardening tools, things like that. 175 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 3: In the introduction to the book, she describes figuring out 176 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 3: the code as one of the most complicated aspects of 177 00:10:55,559 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 3: the project. What resulted is a symbolic alphabet with letters 178 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 3: A through W all representing different phrases. 179 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 12: A Bleeding Heart was going to be the victims so 180 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 12: B one, B two, BH three that was going to 181 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 12: connote whoever he was talking about. 182 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 3: Of her work with Rader, Ramsland says this type of 183 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: research could be used to develop treatment programs for kids 184 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 3: who might be at risk of becoming one of these offenders, 185 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 3: and because of this potential, she emphasizes that its use 186 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 3: is more that of a textbook than entertainment. 187 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 12: Is that a true crime book? It's a book where 188 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 12: Dennis Rader and I explore his life story together with 189 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 12: clinical tools. I call it a guided autobiography because he's 190 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 12: not just blathering on about himself without any structure. It's 191 00:11:54,920 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 12: structured to benefit my field, criminology and law enforcement. 192 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 3: Reader's narcissism does make it difficult to discern his fiction 193 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 3: from reality, but Ramsland's professional background and the relationships she 194 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 3: built with him before starting the book allowed her to 195 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 3: call him out on his lies. 196 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 12: I had the complete transcript of the police interrogation. I 197 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 12: had five years of correspondence from the other writer. I 198 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 12: had the whole DA's file. So yes, I know he's 199 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 12: going to play me if I can, but I have 200 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 12: the objective background. He's obviously going to be able to 201 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 12: talk more about what was really going on at the 202 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 12: crime scenes in ways that no investigator will ever be 203 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 12: able to do. But at the same time, he's narcissistic. 204 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 12: He does want publicity, he does want to be known 205 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 12: in a certain way, and I have to keep that 206 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 12: in mind as well. But that's okay because that's data 207 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 12: for me. I didn't care if he told the truth 208 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 12: or he lied. 209 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 3: All of that data. 210 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 12: There are more layers than just what a killer says, 211 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 12: So it's not really about asking that person a whole 212 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 12: bunch of questions. To get into who they are. You 213 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 12: have to watch their behavior and the inconsistencies and the oddities. 214 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 12: For example, on a scene in The Americans, there was 215 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 12: a really brutal scene where they put a burning car 216 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 12: tire over the sky to get him to say something, 217 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 12: and Raita was furious, just furious if that was on TV, Like, Okay, 218 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 12: you're a serial killer, You've done terrible things to people, 219 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 12: and this is a fictional scenario. Why are you so angry? 220 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 12: When we started playing chess, he told me not to cheat. 221 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 12: Really in your whole scheme of morality, that's what matters 222 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 12: to you. That I'm not cheating at a chess game. 223 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 12: To me, that's all very interesting behavior, because what is 224 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 12: he showing me about what matters to him? 225 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 3: On certain issues, Raider was more defensive than others. 226 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 12: If it was something in which he had no real 227 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 12: investment in how he wanted to present himself, then he'd 228 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 12: sort of laugh it off. Yeah, you caught me, or 229 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 12: something like that. One time he was talking about how 230 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 12: much he loved his son. I said, well, you know, 231 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 12: you used your son's car during your cat and mouse game. 232 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 12: He was away in the navy, And I said, what 233 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 12: did you think your son would feel like when you 234 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 12: were arrested and they found out his car was the 235 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 12: one on the surveillance video. His first response was, well, 236 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 12: I was never going to get caught. I never even 237 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 12: thought of that. Then he got upset with me because 238 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 12: I was questioning the narrative that he loved his son. 239 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 12: I was basically saying, saying, that's not a very loving 240 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 12: thing to do to your son. What you did to 241 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 12: satisfy yourself is not a loving thing to do to 242 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 12: the family you say you love. And he got angry, 243 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 12: and his response was to write a very long letter 244 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 12: justifying everything I would tell you the members of his 245 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 12: family don't feel that loved because he destroyed them, destroyed them, 246 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 12: but he doesn't see it that way. He thinks they 247 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 12: should just get over it and reconnect with them. That's 248 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 12: how he views it. But that's again that notion of 249 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 12: a very shallow emotional processing of the world. He thinks 250 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 12: that what he's done does not have that much enormity 251 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 12: and shouldn't and that they're his family and they need 252 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 12: to forgive him and get back in a relationship with him. 253 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 12: That is how he thinks. 254 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 3: It's hard to imagine a world where anyone could forgive Raider. 255 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: I think for the average person, it's common to wonder 256 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 3: whether these types of violent offenders experience remorse, And when 257 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 3: I think back to his court appearances, I know that 258 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 3: Raider doesn't. 259 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 12: These days, when Raider looks back, he regrets, it's not 260 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 12: the same as remorse. He regrets hurting his family, He 261 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 12: regrets that he's in prison, that he missed out on 262 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 12: a lot of life. He sometimes thinks about religion, but 263 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 12: I think for the most part, he does not believe 264 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 12: that there's an afterlife, that he will have to face 265 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 12: some kind of judgment. The killer part is essentially well, 266 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 12: how he identifies that, he embraces. 267 00:16:46,880 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 3: That there is a thread that ties everyone together. Who 268 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 3: is still to this day interested in Dennis Rader. It 269 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 3: is the desire to understand why he did it and 270 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 3: if we could stop something like this from happening again. 271 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,959 Speaker 3: For Larry Hatteberg, his BTK days didn't end when we 272 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 3: covered the caravan to El Dodo. 273 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 11: I wrote to him in two thousand and five, and 274 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 11: I did get three or four letters back from him. 275 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 11: When I got the first letter from Denis Rader, the 276 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 11: postman stopped out front, came up to my door, rang 277 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 11: the doorbell, and he's holding the letter by the edges 278 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 11: like it's a horrible thing, and he said, I just 279 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 11: want to tell you I'm delivering this to you and 280 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 11: I hate every moment of this. That is an appropriate 281 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 11: response to receiving a letter from Denis Raider. 282 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 3: In one of the letters, Rader had an eerie request 283 00:17:58,680 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 3: for Larry. 284 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 8: He said, look, Larry, I love your show. We used 285 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 8: to watch Haddiberg's People all the time when I wasn't incarcerated. 286 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 8: In here, he said, I want to be on Hadiberg's People. 287 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 8: Haddeberg's People was the series that I did of great 288 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 8: people in the community. So I wrote him back and 289 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 8: I said, Dennis, the fact that you've killed ten people 290 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 8: tends to negate any of the good that you've done 291 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 8: in the community. And he didn't write me back after that. 292 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 3: But in the last few years they've restarted their correspondence. 293 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 3: Larry's received letters from Rader as recently as the end 294 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 3: of twenty twenty four. 295 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 11: The reason I stay kind of involved in it, and 296 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 11: the reason I will occasionally write to BTK is that 297 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 11: we still to this day do not know what caused 298 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 11: BTK to become a murderer. And there are a million 299 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 11: teachers there with kids in their classroom, and they know 300 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 11: something is wrong with a child, but they don't know 301 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 11: what to do. They don't know how to do it. 302 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 11: So the question becomes, how do we identify these children 303 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 11: who are going to grow up to become a BTK. 304 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 11: Until we have those answers, the BTK story will never 305 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 11: be dead, even if he dies tomorrow, and that's why 306 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 11: I stay involved in it. 307 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 3: On the other side of things, there are those who've 308 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 3: decided it is better not to indulge their curiosity when 309 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 3: it comes to Denis Raider. Here's Bob Smiser, a member 310 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 3: of Raider's former church, Christ Lutheran. 311 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 4: I really wanted to go see Dennis in prison, not 312 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 4: because of anything I could ask him, or anything because 313 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 4: he'd lie to you, but to see who he is 314 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 4: strip that facade of Denis Raider facade. I think in 315 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 4: prison you would have finally got to see him as 316 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 4: he really is, and that interested me. Ultimately decided against 317 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 4: it for a variety of reasons. 318 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 3: Do you think you if you went to prison, could 319 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 3: you talk to him as Bobby an old friend. 320 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 4: I don't know that we'd talk as old friends, but 321 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 4: we would talk about his mom and dad, those kind 322 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 4: of things. Those conversations would be fairly simple, they'd be 323 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 4: fairly easy, and they'd be natural. If there's anything left 324 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 4: of the dentist raider facade or is he just BTK? 325 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 4: One hundred percent of the time. 326 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 3: Bob poses a good question, is there anything left of 327 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 3: the dentist Raider? For sad? This is something Carrie Rawson's 328 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 3: been trying to figure out for the last two decades. 329 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 3: It took her years to sort through her complicated emotions 330 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 3: after her father's arrest. 331 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 2: For like the first nine and a half years. I 332 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: was totally shut down. I was hiding who I was. 333 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: I'm in like this megachurch outside Detroit, Michigan, where we 334 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 2: moved in two thousand and three. I'm leading Bible study. 335 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 2: I'm in this mops group with young mothers of toddlers, 336 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 2: and I'm not telling people who I am. My picture 337 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 2: had never been out there in connection with my dad. 338 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: I didn't have social media at the time. I had 339 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 2: gone through the worst day of my life, the worst 340 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 2: thing I could imagine. I'm a trauma survivor, an abuse survivor, 341 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: and I'm not telling anybody about this. The most I 342 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 2: would say, well, this bad thing happened to me. It's 343 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: really hard to sit in Bible study on a Tuesday 344 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 2: morning and the woman next to you is saying like 345 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 2: her worst day of our life is a dishwasher broken 346 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 2: or kitchen flooded, and I'm literally having to leave the 347 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 2: room and cry in the bathroom because how do you 348 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 2: even drop dad into that. Like even with trusted friends 349 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: of mine, I would try and they would tell me 350 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: stop talking, you're giving me nightmares. I was so shut 351 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 2: down those first nine and a half years because I 352 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 2: was scared. I was scared of this man in their 353 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: arrest photo. I was scared of what he had done. 354 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 2: I was even scared of other family members or some 355 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 2: lacko coming after me. 356 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 3: She learned to compartmentalize to separate the father she'd known 357 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 3: from the killer she'd been introduced to. 358 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: With my father, I have to put Dad in BTK. 359 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: When I interviewed with doctor Phil, he was helpful. He 360 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 2: did a timeline and he put photos of my normal 361 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 2: life above the timeline, and then underneath he put crime 362 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 2: scene photos and photos of my dad after the arresting 363 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 2: things BTK things, And he said, stay above the line 364 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 2: as much as you can, because that's safe and sane. 365 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 2: When I was talking about unleashing all the BTK stuff, 366 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: I didn't do it in a healthy way. I just 367 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 2: pulled it all out. And so when I went back 368 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 2: into therapy, she goes, okay. Now, for the first time, 369 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,239 Speaker 2: I got to go put it in order. So we 370 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 2: took the Wichita Eagle book by Winslow and three other journalists, 371 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: and I took it into trauma therapy for months. My 372 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 2: paperback was like dogyard covered marked up in pen. I 373 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: had to go line by line through that thing in 374 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: therapy and I couldn't even do it in order. I 375 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 2: couldn't handle the seventies, and so I started with hedge 376 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: and I worked up through in the ninety one, and 377 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 2: then I went back to the seventies. And so when 378 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 2: I was done with therapy, Dad was strictly BTK to write, 379 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 2: and I had to go back and then separate that 380 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 2: and go back and find Dad and then find me. 381 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 3: Once Carrie had found herself again, she realized her story 382 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 3: might be able to help others, so she took a 383 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 3: chance at sharing it. 384 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 2: I started talking to the media in fourteen. I mean, 385 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 2: it's rare to get somebody like me, a family member 386 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 2: of these guys to talk. It sets off your PTSD. 387 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 2: You know, there's shame in it too, because we've been 388 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: beat up in the media. We've been beat up by 389 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 2: people commenting and social media, some of us going to hiding, 390 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 2: change our names. I thought the answer was to hide, 391 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 2: but hiding meant tearing more insight. It's like when you 392 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: band each a wound two tide. It's festering and rotting 393 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 2: underneath because you're not letting it. 394 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 3: Get air or light. 395 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 2: When I started speaking up, I realized not only was 396 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 2: it healing, me to talk about it. I was getting 397 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 2: an inbox full of people saying I was reaching them 398 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 2: because I was talking about something in forgiveness, or they 399 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,199 Speaker 2: were a soldier that had come home with PTSD and 400 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 2: they had identified with me in my night terrors or 401 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 2: my fears, my anger, or family members of criminals that 402 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 2: were going back and forth between they still love this person, 403 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 2: but they were angry at them, and how do they 404 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 2: deal with the media. Something I was sharing, something I 405 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 2: was saying people were identifying with and it was helping them. 406 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 3: While Carrie was working through her trauma in therapy, she 407 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 3: kept her distance from her father. Their communication ebbed and flowed, 408 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 3: and there were several years where she had no contact 409 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: with him. 410 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 2: We stayed in touch with letters off and on. I 411 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: had forgiven him in twenty twelve. I had wrote him 412 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: that night after five years of no communication, and we 413 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 2: had been talking back and forth in letters. 414 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 3: More. 415 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 2: He read in the witch Tight Eagle article in fifteen 416 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 2: called for kipnesses and tidy, and he said, when he 417 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 2: read that article in the Eagle, he realized at that 418 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: moment more the impact is what he had done to 419 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: our family, and he did fill it and he said 420 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: it caused him to shed a tear. But in that 421 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 2: same letter or in the next letter to me, he's 422 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 2: back being a narcissist, trying to control whatever he has. 423 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 3: Left, and the only thing he has left in this 424 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 3: world is his physical body. 425 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: He's very scared of his own death, ironically, and we 426 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: told him after he died, we would have him be 427 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: cremated and we would scatter his ashes out in the 428 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 2: floothills because we can't have a gravestone for him, and 429 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: we wouldn't want one anyway, would just get to face. 430 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 2: And we've had to tell him over and over and 431 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: over and over again in letters. So now Harry is 432 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 2: in fifteen telling me in this letter he knows he's 433 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: had this massive impact on my family. And in the 434 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 2: same letter he's saying, well, you guys aren't really communicating enough, 435 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 2: and you're not sending me money. And there's this woman 436 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 2: in Arkansas, she's in my fan club. I think maybe 437 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: I'll just sign my papers over and she can have 438 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: my body and give me a gravestone, because that's all 439 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 2: he has left right is his dead body. So he's 440 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 2: literally holding it over my family. 441 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 3: Raider isn't the first serial killer to have a fan club. 442 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 3: Black market memorabilia has been popular for killers like Ted Bundy, 443 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 3: Richard Ramiers and Jeffrey Dahmer. Here's Catherine Ramsland. 444 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 12: Even when he was doing the cat and mouse with 445 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 12: police and he would see this stuff being covered by 446 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 12: the local TV station or the newspaper, he imagined that 447 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 12: he had a band club that he had to please. 448 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 12: And I think he still feels that way today. I 449 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 12: mean he's slowing down, he's tired. 450 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 9: We talk about that. 451 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 12: He wants to cut back on all the correspondence, and 452 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 12: yet if he gets new correspondents who feed into this 453 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 12: need that he has, he keeps them. 454 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 3: No one person, of course, can reverse the horrific damage 455 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 3: done by Raider. A genuine apology from the killer would 456 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 3: even fail to do so. But unfortunately that doesn't stop 457 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 3: us from wishing it could all be undone. 458 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: I want my dad back. I want the seven families 459 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: to have their families back. I don't want the generational impacts, 460 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 2: community impacts, the thousands of people he's impacted, the detective's live, 461 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 2: Sea's run. If you could wipe all of that out 462 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 2: and just have the ten living people back and have life, 463 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 2: that would be ideal. But you can't do that right. 464 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 2: There's no time machine, there's no time loop, marble whatever. 465 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 2: This is reality. I can't change anything. I can't help 466 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 2: who I am. But I can do something good with 467 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: what I've got, and this is what I have, so 468 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: I do it. 469 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,959 Speaker 3: January fifteenth, twenty twenty four, marked fifty years since the 470 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 3: tragic O Taro murders. 471 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 5: I can't believe it's been that long. Yet it feels 472 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 5: like yesterday. 473 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 3: Charlie O Tarum the eldest O Taro Ship. 474 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 5: The pain is still there, the intensity of the anguish 475 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 5: and the grief is still there, but I've learned to 476 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 5: push it aside when it gets overwhelming and embrace the 477 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 5: good knowing that I am where I'm at today is 478 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 5: because of the full turnaround of all of this. I 479 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 5: got my life back when he got caught. 480 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 3: Over the last few years, Charlie's turned his pain into 481 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 3: a platform, giving speeches at prisons throughout the country. 482 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 5: I'm doing well, and I only hope to do more 483 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 5: good work in the future, and I'm gonna use this 484 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,479 Speaker 5: fiftieth anniversary as a catalyst. If I can to do 485 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 5: the work that I started doing, it makes me feel better, 486 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 5: It makes me feel good to take all the stupid 487 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 5: stuff I've done in my life spin it into a 488 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 5: lesson for the guys to learn from my mistakes. I've 489 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 5: always believed it's cheaper to learn from other people's mistakes, 490 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 5: and if talking to other people about what I've experienced 491 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 5: helps them deal with whatever trauma or victimization they've had 492 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 5: in their lives, then I'll continue. I don't live for 493 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 5: the poor Charlie thing. I live to honor my promise 494 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 5: to the Lord given my life. So you know, I'm 495 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 5: not a great Christian, but I try to be a 496 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 5: good one. And if I can keep one criminal from 497 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 5: getting out and hurting another family, then I will continue 498 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 5: to go to jails in prisons and reach out to 499 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 5: the guys who are getting out. 500 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: And he tries not to dwell on the trauma of 501 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 3: his past. 502 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 5: I live with the memories of my family in a 503 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 5: good place. I don't like to think of them the 504 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 5: day they died anymore. I like to think of what 505 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 5: we had before, going to the beach, being together, going 506 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 5: to church, all those goods. And for me, the past 507 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 5: is good for two things and two things only in 508 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 5: that's fond memories and lessons learned. 509 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 3: Jeff Davis, son of Dolores Davis. I go to a 510 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 3: similar sentiment when we're calling his own mother. 511 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 7: I know I'll see her again, so that in itself 512 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 7: brings a lot of hope. I'm not getting a younger 513 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 7: and there'll come a time where I won't be here, 514 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 7: but where will be We'll be with her. We had 515 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 7: a lot of good, little, average everyday kind of time 516 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 7: that we spent before she killed her. We just talked 517 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 7: and laughed and shared the stories and made fun of 518 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 7: show and stuff. She used to say, Are you comfort 519 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 7: from that? She knowing that I know, I know what 520 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 7: the future holds, and I know what the past was, 521 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 7: and those are all positive and that helps. After thirty 522 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 7: two years, even the worst wounds start to score over. 523 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 3: As for his thoughts on Raider, I'd. 524 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 7: Like to say I've forgiven him and all that kind 525 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 7: of stuff that I'm supposed to do. I haven't. It's 526 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 7: just something that I think about. I just haven't got 527 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 7: there the way I justified this. I don't think about 528 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 7: him at all. He's a little insect, just skitterers around 529 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 7: in his eight by twelve style, still thinking everybody thinks 530 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 7: he's cool. He thinks all the guards like him. That's 531 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 7: how delusionaling is. He's not worth my time thinking about. 532 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 3: In the years I've known Steve Raulford, son of Shirley 533 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 3: I am, I've watched him have a rougher go at it. 534 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 3: Have you been able to forgive yourself? 535 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 13: Forgive? No, to deal with myself? Yeah? I don't think. 536 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 13: Oh I forgive myself. I tried. I get drunk, I 537 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 13: get fucked up trying to forgive myself. 538 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 9: It. 539 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 13: Don't worry. Nothing works. It's all right. That ain't working. 540 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 3: You know, you were six years old. You had no idea. 541 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 3: There's no reason to feel any amount of guilt or anything. 542 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 13: Yeah, that's what people say. But I can't help I feel. 543 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 3: Did BT k ruin your life forever? 544 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 7: Yeah? 545 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 13: He he fucked me for life. 546 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 3: In twenty seventeen, Steve himself was serving time in elderat 547 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 3: the very prison that holds his mother's killer. How did 548 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 3: that feel? What did that do? 549 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 13: I could know that I was in the shame fucking 550 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 13: provent of him and couldn't get to him. I think 551 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 13: I ride in my bait and cried every fucking not 552 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 13: not I do sometimes now, but I'm a strong moved. 553 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 13: Motherfucker you are. 554 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 3: You're still around, and you're still surviving, and you're still trying. 555 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 3: You're still trying, Steve. 556 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 13: Well, I can't succeed. I'll go back to our game. 557 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 3: It is nearly impossible to find silver linings in the 558 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 3: wake of these tragedies. But I take a little comfort 559 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 3: knowing that through all of this, Charlie and Steve were 560 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 3: able to develop a brotherly relationship. 561 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 5: I met Steve at the Monteu Williams show. We're giggling 562 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 5: to each other. He gave me a two dollar bill 563 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 5: and I gave him an eighteen ninety something silver dollar 564 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 5: for friendship. Because I went one way, he went the other. 565 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 5: He's like my little brother. 566 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 8: Now. 567 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 5: I worry for him, and I pray for him, and 568 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 5: I'm happy when he's happy. I care about him because 569 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 5: I know what he went through. He didn't have the 570 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 5: opportunities I had. He was a lot younger when stuff 571 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 5: happened to him. I was blessed to have been raised 572 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 5: with a solid childhood. Steve didn't have that. 573 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 13: After I heard my backbones said, I've been here, Susan Peters, Charlie, 574 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 13: he number two. We have a bond and I'm wacom back. 575 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 3: You share something in common, you and Charlie. What is that? 576 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 13: Both have lost? He lost more than dude, but chilled 577 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 13: lost and we connect. 578 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,280 Speaker 3: In twenty twenty three, it had been a long time 579 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 3: since Dennis Raider's name made the news, but seemingly out 580 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 3: of nowhere, a cold case in Oklahoma got new legs. 581 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 2: Just confirmed within the last two hours. A sheriff's office 582 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 2: out of Oklahoma in Park City today searching the former 583 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 2: property of BTK serial killer Dennis Raider. 584 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 3: In a breaking news alert. None of us were expecting 585 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,240 Speaker 3: BTK was back again. 586 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 9: Our case close to home is in Pahusco, Oklahoma, which 587 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 9: is Osage County. We had a young female cheerleader sixteen 588 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 9: years of age that came up missing from a laundromat 589 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 9: in downtown Pahusca in nineteen seventy six. Her name was 590 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,760 Speaker 9: Cynthia don Kenney. I'm the under Sheriff of Osage County, 591 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 9: Gary Upton. In December late December of twenty twenty two, 592 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 9: Sheriff Verdin couldn't sleep one particular night, and he woke 593 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 9: up at three thirty in the morning and decided, if 594 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 9: I can't sleep, I'm going to watch some TV, and 595 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 9: so he tuned into Netflix and he watched a episode 596 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 9: of Catching Killers, and it was the episode titled Bind 597 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 9: Torture Kill BTK. After having watched it, the wheels in 598 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 9: his head started to turn and he started to think 599 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 9: about the distance between Pahaska and Wichita and Park City 600 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,479 Speaker 9: and determined that two hours away was close enough that 601 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 9: this might be a guy that he should at least 602 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 9: look at. 603 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 3: Sheriff Verndon took a trip to visit Raider at Eldaredo. 604 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 9: He spent three hours talking to Dennis Rader in late January, 605 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 9: but did not reveal the reason for his visit. At 606 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 9: the tail end of that interview, Dennis Rader, unsolicited seemed 607 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 9: to offer up a tidbit of information. Rader said, you know, 608 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 9: I have a fantasy that I wish I could have 609 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 9: lived out, and he asked Sheriff Verdon if he wanted 610 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 9: to hear it, and he goes, I've always wanted to 611 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 9: kidnap a female from a launder maat. I'd sit outside 612 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 9: the laundromat and I'd wait and watch until she was 613 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 9: in there alone, and then I would go in and 614 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 9: I would grab her and just take her. After that, 615 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 9: Sheriff Verdon went to Wichita Police got copies of evidence 616 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 9: and journals, and we used that intervening time to meticulously 617 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 9: pour over those journals page by page, taking notes, connecting dots, 618 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 9: seeing how something from one page related to another page. 619 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 9: In a spiderweb kind of passion. 620 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 3: What they found in those journals was big. 621 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 9: We see a lot that points him towards Bahuska. The 622 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 9: particular journal entry that we saw in nineteen seventy six 623 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 9: called bad wash Day, and that particular journal entry indicated 624 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 9: that he was going to try to do a breaking 625 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 9: an entering someplace on seventeenth Street. Pahusca has a seventeenth Street. 626 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 9: He indicated in that same journal entry that that was 627 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 9: unsuccessful due to too much noise, and he moved on 628 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 9: down to a laundermap. He has a notation called C nine, 629 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 9: the letter C and the numeral nine that indicates a 630 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 9: chapter in his unpublished manuscript, and chapter nine was dedicated 631 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:40,800 Speaker 9: to all his successful kills, and those were his personal notes. 632 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 9: That was nothing that was meant for the eyes of 633 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 9: the police or the media, so it wasn't a brag 634 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 9: or a taunt. 635 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 3: From there, they got in contact with Kerrie Rawson. 636 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 9: To get her on board was a little bit of 637 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 9: a uphill climb. We started revealing little tidbits of information 638 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 9: here and there to her, and she started communicating with 639 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 9: the media about her skepticism in regards to us. After 640 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 9: a visit where we flew her here, we gave her 641 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,879 Speaker 9: a peek inside of Pandora's box and we showed her 642 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 9: the information that we had. We showed her journal entries 643 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 9: that related to what we believed it was. Then I 644 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 9: think that she became a real believer and the idea 645 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,320 Speaker 9: that her father had killed more than ten people. 646 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,240 Speaker 3: The Sheriff's department then went digging in raiders backyard for evidence. 647 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 3: This was the impetus for the new surge in media attention. 648 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 9: You can look behind me and you can see the 649 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 9: sidewalk here that it has been dug up, and neighbors 650 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 9: tell me that law enforcement have been sifting through there 651 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 9: like they were going through gold. This latest news surge 652 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 9: is something that we as a sheriff's office didn't want. 653 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 9: It was somewhere in Park City in this second visit 654 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,399 Speaker 9: to his property that we were outed. Since the cat 655 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 9: was out of the bag, We've decided we just have 656 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 9: to take our shot. 657 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 3: The Osage County Sheriff's Department had already made a trip 658 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 3: out to Raiders property. The house and Raiders tools shed, 659 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 3: though were raised back in two thousand and six to 660 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 3: deter tours and media attention. Investigators went to the lot 661 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 3: to look for personal effects and potentially a driver's license. 662 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 9: When we went there in April, we discovered that the 663 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 9: city owned the property. It was still flat and devoid 664 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 9: of any construction, with the exception of a sidewalk that 665 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,319 Speaker 9: had been poured from the street all the way through 666 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 9: the property around behind the houses to a playground. It 667 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 9: was a brand new sidewalk that was poured in twenty twenty. 668 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 9: So in April we did not have permission to tear 669 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 9: up the sidewalk, but Park City police stood by while 670 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 9: we dug on the edges of it, and it was 671 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 9: then that we discovered the pantyhose. It was tied in 672 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 9: a knot that would be suitable for a bondage of 673 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 9: either wrists or angles. 674 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,919 Speaker 3: They had to get under the sidewalk. 675 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 9: So fast forward and when we have gotten permission to 676 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,760 Speaker 9: remove the concrete sidewalk once again, we had Park City 677 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 9: on hand. They removed the concrete and we discovered the 678 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 9: Heidi hole. It was lined with shingles and the inside 679 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 9: of the hole had a lot of gravel. We cleared 680 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 9: all that out, discovered personal items that looked like trophies 681 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 9: that would belong to a female, and we also found 682 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 9: bondage material, chain clips, and a small length of chain. 683 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,720 Speaker 9: It looked like what Dennis's talked about it as writing before. 684 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 3: Not everyone has been on board with this new series 685 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 3: of events. Not only was Kerry skeptical, but so was 686 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 3: the Wichita Police Department. 687 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 9: At first, everyone kind of starts out wondering what our 688 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 9: motives are. Obviously, you know, even KBI, even OSBI. Our 689 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 9: next hurdle is our approach to the FBI, and obviously 690 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,320 Speaker 9: the ultimate goal is closure for the victims' families. 691 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 3: BTK still has not been confirmed as the killer of 692 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:39,240 Speaker 3: Osage County Cynthia don Kenney. In twenty twenty four, Raider 693 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,800 Speaker 3: was absolved of the nineteen ninety killing of a Missouri 694 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 3: woman named Shauna Garber. This case had been reopened in 695 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 3: response to the Oklahoma investigation. The last updates police had 696 00:43:51,960 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 3: on Kenny's case, we're in September of twenty twenty three. 697 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 3: To me, this case in Oklahoma confirms something I believed 698 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,280 Speaker 3: for years, that Denis Rader is one of the most 699 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 3: evil killers in American history. I've called Wichita home for 700 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 3: over thirty years, and in my time here, we've been 701 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 3: through so many phases of the BTK story, and every 702 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 3: single time we think we've made it to the end 703 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 3: of btk's reign of terror, it all comes spiraling back. 704 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 3: Over the course of this podcast, I've spoken with multiple 705 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 3: people whose lives were upended by Denis Raider, but none 706 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 3: of them are victims. All of them are survivors. Their 707 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:49,839 Speaker 3: example strengthens my result to keep telling their stories, their 708 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 3: stories not of lives ended by BTK, but stories of 709 00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:01,960 Speaker 3: redemption and hope things Denis Rader will ever have. It 710 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 3: is my hope that we can continue to build a 711 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 3: compassionate community in spite of a seemingly never ending saga 712 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 3: of darkness. 713 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 1: Monster BTK is a production of Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts. 714 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 1: The show is written by Nomes Griffin, Trevor Young, and 715 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:35,360 Speaker 1: Jesse Funk. Our host is Susan Peters. Executive producers on 716 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: behalf of Tenderfoot TV include Donald Albright, and Payne Lindsay 717 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: alongside supervising producer Tracy Kaplan. Executive producers on behalf of 718 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts include Matt Frederick and Trevor Young, alongside producers 719 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: Nomes Griffin and Jesse Funk and supervising producer Rima Ilkali. 720 00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 1: Marketing support by David Wasserman and Alison Wright iHeart Podcasts 721 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: and Caroline Origemma at Tenderfoot TV. Additional research by Claudia Dafrico, 722 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 1: original artwork by Kevin Mister Soul Harp, original music by 723 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 1: Makeup and Vanity Set. Special thanks to Orrin Rosenbaum and 724 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: the team at UTA and the Nord Group. For more 725 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV, visit the iHeartRadio app, 726 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 727 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.