WEBVTT - Cheryl Strayed on embracing the gray area 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:06.080 What do you do when life doesn't go according to 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.760 plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:14.080 or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.759 is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.599 by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:23.840 with a guest to talk about the times they were 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:26.920 knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:33.080 Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:38.320 are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.839 every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:50.800 answers one question, Now, what have your children ever if 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:54.040 they read everything that you've written? Do they what do 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:54.959 they feel about it? 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:58.640 They've read little bits of my work, and they've sometimes 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.560 been in the room when I've read work or talked 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:05.080 about it. But neither of them have yet like sat 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:09.560 down and read my books, which is kind of interesting. 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:11.200 It doesn't surprise me. 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:13.600 I think I always have had this idea that, like, 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:15.640 when they're about thirty, they'll be able to do that, 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:17.920 because you know, my work is so personal, there is 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:21.080 so much about my interior life. The other interesting thing is, 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:22.880 you know, I'm not sure if you know this book. 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:25.920 But my daughter Bobby, who's named after my mother, Bobby, 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:27.039 actually was. 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:29.720 In Wild, the movie. She played the young me. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:34.800 So when Reese Witherspoone remembers her childhood, they're these flashbacks 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:37.640 and you see this blonde girl. Well, that's my daughter Bobby, 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.200 and she had just turned eight and she was. 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:41.720 In the movie. 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.800 And even though she was in the movie, they've neither 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:47.960 of my kids have ever watched the film. They just 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.120 think it's too much and it's so funny because their 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:53.320 friends have all watched the movie, their friends have read 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.080 the books, some of their friends have been assigned to 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:58.040 read the book in high school and college. And my 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.240 own kids hapened. But I think that it's also like, 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:02.080 really naturally. 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:09.720 My guest today has a way with words. Cheryl Strad 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:15.880 is a renowned author, public speaker, advice columnist, and podcast host. 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:20.480 Her books, including the New York Times bestseller Wild, have 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.280 sold millions of copies worldwide and have been adapted to 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:28.440 both big and small screen. I loved Hulu's version of 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.640 her book, Tiny Beautiful Things, and I marveled at both 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:35.440 the resilience of her spirit and the quality of her advice. 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:40.240 Cheryl's a celebrated essayist, a wife, a mom to two teenagers, 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.880 and I just think a genuinely kind person, a conversation 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.880 with a gift, and I'm grateful to her for allowing 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.400 me to share it with you all. So, without further ado, 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:56.359 here is Cheryl Strade. I'm so happy to talk to you. 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:58.040 Nice to meet you, Cheryl. 0:02:58.360 --> 0:02:59.679 I'm so excited to meet you. 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:03.560 I was telling my daughter, who just turned eighteen on Sunday, 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:06.040 Oh boy, I was telling her this morning, I was 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:07.400 going to talk to you, And I was like, if 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:11.560 you had gone back in time and told my sixteen 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:13.800 year old self that I would ever get to talk 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.680 to Brookshields, I would never have believed you. 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:18.760 So I was telling her how much I've loved you 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:19.400 for so long. 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:21.880 Oh well, thank you. And if you had told me 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.320 at sixteen that I would be talking to such an 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:28.920 accomplished writer person human, I probably would have said, uh, 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.280 I don't think so like. I'm just like, I'm just 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.959 like a model and a you know, kind of actress. 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:35.040 Oh well, thank you. 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.240 So you've got two kids though, right, I. 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:38.200 Had two kids? Yeah, I have. 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:43.000 My son is a freshman at college. He just started 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.640 at university of Oregon last month, and my daughter is 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:47.720 a senior in high school. 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.920 Wow, I've got one who's will be going into her 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.720 junior year in college. She's a sophomore. And I've got 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:57.720 a senior in high school. So okay, I'm sure if 0:03:57.760 --> 0:03:59.760 I were to ask you advice, you would give me 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:04.960 very healthy advice. But people know you from your books 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.520 predominantly they tell us a lot about you, which I believe, 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.280 but they don't tell you everything about you. And I 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.400 always am interested in how people describe themselves. So if 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.880 you were to have to describe yourself in your day 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.159 to day life right now, what would you say? 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:26.200 Oh, gosh, I think that I really am like many parents, 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.000 It's like they realize, Okay, I'm all these things in 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.440 my work life, but my main job is mommy. 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:33.359 I'm a mom. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:37.440 And I really had this idea when my kids were 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:41.960 younger that when they got to be teenagers, that would 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:43.760 be a time that I could like kind of step 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.120 back and you know, you don't have to follow them 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.919 around at the playground anymore, but you have to do 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.960 other things that are really, I think equally demanding, and 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.760 especially these last few years brook where it's been what 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.400 I think of as like very high impact parents through 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.919 a pandemic and all of the changes that COVID brought 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.080 on in terms of like my kids were not in 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.360 school for a long time, they were navigating adolescents, which 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.320 is this time when, of course, all they wanted to 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.720 do was be with their friends. So it's been really 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:20.520 a very consuming part of my life. So I'm a mom. 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.800 I'm a partner to my wonderful husband who I've been 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.800 with since really I met him nine days after I 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:29.880 finished my hike on the Pacific Crest Trail, which I 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:33.440 wrote about in Wild, my husband, Brian Linstrom. And of 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:37.000 course I'm a writer, and as a writer, I wear 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.760 many hats. When I first started writing, I always thought 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.080 that I would be somebody who just wrote books. And 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:46.680 what's been really cool and fun about my career, and 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:48.839 I think so many of our careers what ends up 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.120 happening is is as you walk down the path, all 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.240 of these other paths open up. My writing led me, 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.040 for example, to write this Dear Sugar advice column, which 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.120 I never in my wildest amount and thought, you know, 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:03.160 I'm going to write an advice column someday, And to 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.440 be a really central part of my work, well, I 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:09.080 do that or I've also branched out into I write 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.640 screenplays and I've been involved in television writing as well, 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.799 and that's sort of a surprise. And then I also 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.080 have an accidental career, as you know. I had a 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:20.520 couple of podcasts, I do a lot of public speaking. 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:23.680 Those are things that were great surprises. So I'm a 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:27.279 bunch of different things. And I also am a cat 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:28.839 mom and a dog mom too. 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:29.919 We can't forget that. 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:34.480 Okay, Well, I'm interested in, first of all, how you're 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.320 because you were You were brought up very Let's talk 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.520 a little bit about your upbringing. And you lived in 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.359 a very rural community with your mom. Yeah, and that 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:48.039 meant what without. 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:48.800 Or a toilet? 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.440 I mean, yeah, I had a really well first of all, 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.120 I was born in western Pennsylvania in Appalasia, my where 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.960 my father in this tiny town where my father had 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:02.000 grown up and his whole family, his father and grandfather, 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.839 were coal miners, and so I grew up, you know, 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.320 came from very humble beginnings. My parents had married in 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.240 the sixties because my mom, when they were dating, my 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:16.760 mom got pregnant and it was a very difficult marriage. 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:18.840 They had three kids together. I'm their middle. 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:22.920 Child, and by the time I was six, my parents 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.200 were divorced and I was living in a little town 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.800 outside of Minneapolis, about an hour outside of Minneapolis, where 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.520 my mom was a waitress and worked in a factory, 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.400 and we were you know, we received welfare, we were poor. 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:38.680 We were basically living hand to mouth, and by the 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.520 time I was a teenager, we had moved to northern Minnesota, 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.000 where we essentially were homesteaders. You know, we lived in 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:48.640 the woods, we built our own house with my by 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.600 then my stepfather, who was a carpenter, and we you know, 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:56.320 my mom and stepfather were in some ways kind of 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:57.480 back to the landers. 0:07:57.480 --> 0:07:57.680 You know. 0:07:57.720 --> 0:07:59.720 My mom certainly had a lot of values that were 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.200 out providing for yourself and growing your. 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.679 Own food and making things. But also we were broke. 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:10.280 You know, we didn't have an indoor toilet, not because 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.600 of any sort of political ideology. It was because we 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.240 couldn't afford to have one installed until I was actually 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.120 away at college. And so I grew up in a 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:24.160 really rustic way. I grew up with a lot of 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:28.600 financial struggle and strife, but I also grew up in 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:30.440 a really happy you know that was in so many 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.920 ways very much nurtured me and made me who I 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:33.440 am today. 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:36.959 How So, because I you know, you hear that story 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.079 more often than you hear you know, those born to privilege, 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.760 you know, don't have the understanding of have not or 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.880 or whatever. But how do you think that that that 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.360 experience and the memory of that experience from such a 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:55.240 young age, for as many years as you experienced it, 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.640 how do you think that that differentiated you or shaped 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.720 you differently and different from your peers. 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:04.600 Well, it's such a big question. I mean, we could 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:06.880 talk this whole hour about that, because I really do 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.880 think that, you know, when we use that word privilege, 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.120 we think of just a very specific things. And of course, 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:16.120 you know, people who have in this case, like economic 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:21.280 advantages that I didn't have have more. I also just 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:23.719 want to share with you, Brooke, there was something that 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.520 my mom would always say to me, we aren't poor 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.720 because we're rich in love. And so there's a way 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.480 in which I was poor and unprivileged, and there was 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.319 a way in which I was rich and extremely privileged. 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.120 I have so many dear, dear friends who grew up 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:45.520 with great economic privilege and were poor in every other way, 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:48.120 and so I think it's really important to remember that 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.840 because love is the essential nutrient. I wrote that as sugar, 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.360 and I do believe it. And so an answer to 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:57.680 your question is I got plenty of that. 0:09:58.480 --> 0:09:59.640 I had very. 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:05.559 Difficult experiences and trauma with my father, witnessing him physically 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:10.679 abuse my mother. I have also myself been a victim 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:15.080 of sexual abuse as a child. But and that's a 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.360 big but I had to heal those wounds. This isn't 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:21.320 to diminish that, but I did have a mother who 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:25.480 really loved me and my siblings, and she always made 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.800 us feel safe and secure, even when we were, you know, 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:31.080 really financially precarious and insecure. 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:34.760 And this was with your real biology, my biological father. 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:41.920 So he was violent and abusive and menacing, and that 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.520 those were really painful things. But my mother, you know, 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.959 eventually steered us out of there, and you know, we 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:52.319 I do think that that so many of the things 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:56.200 that made me are those difficult things, but also my mother, 0:10:56.280 --> 0:11:01.640 who modeled resilience, who modeled the ability to walk in 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.560 the direction of the better thing. 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:05.400 You know. 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.360 I think think it's funny that, like I'm sort of 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.959 famous for walking, and I think like I can trace 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.000 that back to witnessing my mother walk walk out of 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.680 a marriage, walk away from something that was harmful, even 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.320 though that was, you know, all these other ways difficult 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:24.280 to do, and she was a very really self sufficient person. 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:24.600 You know. 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.000 I can describe my childhood in a lot of ways 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.400 where I say, well, we didn't have an indoor toilet, 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:31.400 or we didn't have this, or we didn't have that, 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.160 But I could also tell you so many things we 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:35.400 had what. 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:39.840 Has mostly helped you? How do you heal from that pain? 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:40.360 Yeah? 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:43.000 How did you know to do that? Because it's got 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:44.720 to be practiced over the years. 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:45.840 It does. That's it. 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:47.920 I mean, you put your finger on it. It is, 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:53.240 you know that we find healing through learning how to 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.080 tell our stories and also to revise our stories to 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.800 be able to have some perspective. I have always said, 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.600 I really do believe in the power of art because 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:07.040 it is essentially telling us the story back to us 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.880 of what we already know. What it means to be human, 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.200 what it means to love, to lose, to heal, to 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.600 triumph over over the things that have traumatized us, you know, 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.839 and so so much of I think the way we 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.080 think about the world is dichotomy. Right, You're either a 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:26.559 victim or you're not, or you're weak, or you're strong, 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:28.720 or you're this, or you're that, you're damaged, or your 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:32.800 whole you know, you're broken, or your whole. And I 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.120 have always been such a believer that we're all of 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.040 those things at once that I can say to you, yeah, 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:42.160 those I had some horrible traumas as a child, and 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.800 those things don't just go away because I snap my fingers. 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.280 They are always with me. But over time, what I 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.680 did is I learned how to allow myself the pain 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:58.320 of those experiences. I allowed myself the understanding of those experiences, 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:02.080 and I allowed myself to tell i'll revise story about 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:03.000 those experiences. 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:03.280 Now. 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.720 Of course, it took something from me to be sexually 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:11.560 abused by my grandfather, for example, it also eventually gave 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:16.160 me something back in my ability to understand how it 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.560 is sometimes those who are suffering make other people suffer, 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.760 how it is sometimes we have to walk through and 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.920 learn how to carry those ugly things we wish we 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.640 didn't have to carry, and how we can let those 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:35.760 negative experiences make us actually not only stronger, but able 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.679 to help others by telling the story of that experience. 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.200 I'm so deeply moved by your insight, you know, in 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:51.319 your compassion. You Now if you've done a lot of therapy. 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.120 Too, you know I haven't. 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.880 That is Oh, I hate you. I've been in therapy 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.200 forever and it's the only reason why I feel sort of, 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.360 you know, grounded. I know, yes, is you naturally this? 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:04.680 I mean I think that this is my interviews. 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.840 I've never been through therapy, you know, really, so, I 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:12.920 mean I've done I've done therapy like with my kids 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.040 and stuff like that, but I, like myself, have never 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.600 fully gone through therapy. But let me tell you. My 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.040 theory of that book is that because at first it 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.120 was really just a socioeconomic thing. Like I didn't grow 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:28.840 up in a culture or community where people went to therapy, 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:30.560 you know, Like I have friends who grew up in 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.320 New York City in LA and they're like they were 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.160 in therapy like age eight and a half, you know 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:35.600 what I mean. 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:37.080 It's just like how it is. 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.560 And like I grew up in northern Minnesota, and also 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.640 I'm fifty five, so generationally, like it wasn't just it. 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:48.120 Hadn't really seeped into the culture in the way it 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:48.720 has now. 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:51.360 Back when I was younger, so I couldn't and then 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.800 and then in my young adult years, I couldn't afford it, 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.760 you know, I didn't have holll insurance. And then now 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:58.800 that I'm old enough, it was like, Okay, what I 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:04.560 realized is has been such a therapeutic act for me. Accidentally, 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.120 I was doing what we do in therapy, like when 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.920 you write about your life, you have to deeply, deeply, 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:15.960 you know, interrogate your assumptions. You have to think about 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.880 other perspectives, like when you wrote about your mom and 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.480 I've written about my mom. You know, there is if 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.560 you're going to actually write something that's worth reading and 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.400 we're sharing with other people, you have to really struggle 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:29.320 to get to the truth. 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:30.880 And the truth isn't just your truth. 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.400 And that is one thing that what I've really found 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:39.480 from Deer Sugar, which was a popular advice column that 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.840 you just contributed to right and then it became a podcast, 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:43.640 is that. 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:44.880 No I wrote the column. 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:46.680 So I first wrote the column for The Rumpust and 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.160 I still write it. It's a monthly column. I have 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.520 a subtech newsletter, but I took so I wrote. I 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:53.800 wrote it for The Rumpus for a couple of years. 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:58.480 It became my collection Tiny Beautiful Things. Then I stopped 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:00.560 writing it for a little while, and I did a 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:03.560 podcast for The New York Times in w R called 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.320 Dear Sugars with my co host Steve Allman. Then we 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.400 stopped doing that, and then I picked up writing it 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:14.560 again monthly for my Substeck newsletter and recently well to 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.760 sort of at the same time that the TV adaptation 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.000 came out. Earlier this year, Hulu released Tiny Beautiful Things, 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.200 the TV show Starry Katherine Hans Katherine Han, Who's amazing, 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.720 And at that time we reissued Tiny Beautiful Things the 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.000 tenth anniversary with some new columns. So it's really like 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.520 this whole deer sugar giving advice thing, Brooke. That's such 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.440 a prime example of when I said, all these paths 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.400 presented themselves, Dear Sugar has taken me on a journey. 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.400 It makes me think that you were, in some way 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:50.440 always a listener, a watcher, an advice giver. Do you 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.000 think that's just in your DNA. 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:54.920 Like I do. I do you know? 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:56.440 And I think it's connected to. 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.320 Me being a writer and not just being a writer, 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.880 but really essentially being feeling called to be a writer. 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:10.080 I have always been somebody who felt like the way 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:12.879 I could contribute to the world, you know, the thing 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:16.800 I had to give was to tell stories, to write stories, 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:21.560 to make people feel less alone through words. And when 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.280 I think about the things that have helped me in 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.720 my life over time, it's almost always a book or 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.240 a poem or you know, an essay that made me 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:36.560 feel seen and recognized and validated and inspired or consoled 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.639 and so in the form of their Sugar, when I 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.640 had the opportunity to write this column, I first wrote 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.600 it anonymously and then revealed my identity as Sugar. I thought, okay, 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.399 this is interesting because I can use this in a 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.159 really practical way, like writing can actually be directly helpful 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:58.640 to people. And I didn't know, you know, I was like, listen, 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:00.840 I've never been through therapy, I've never taken. 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.520 A psychology class. But what I did know was the 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:05.320 human condition. 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.680 I mean, as a writer, that's which when you apprentice 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.840 yourself to the craft of writing, it's not just forming 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:17.920 sentences in metaphors and so forth. It's actually understanding how 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.440 you know what motivates or animates this person, what scares 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:24.720 this person, this character? Right, And so I applied that 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:28.280 kind of thinking to these letters. And as for the 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:32.359 empathy piece, you know, yeah, I've always tended to be 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:37.720 somebody who suffered at the idea of others suffering, and 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:41.080 Brooke one of the things I learned right away is 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:45.240 that the only way I could possibly give people advice 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:47.240 as sugar was. 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:48.520 I couldn't judge them. 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.119 Whatever you say to me about what you did or 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.879 you regret or your fear or you're you know, messing up, 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:57.840 I'm going to say, I'm going to validate you, and 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.760 I'm going to hold you with with loving kind and 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.720 I'm going to write to you from that position, even 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.600 if I ultimately say things that maybe, like, you know, 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.560 challenge you. For example, you could say, like, you know, 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:12.240 we could put out like if we could put a 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:16.879 poll out right now and go, Okay, my husband cheated 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:18.520 on me, Should I divorce him? 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:19.320 Yes or no? 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.439 Like, and then people would like they would vote yes 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.920 or no based on like whatever actually they bring to it, 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:30.399 like their ideas, their assumptions, their history. But the truth 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.320 is we don't know the answer to that question because 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:39.400 actually It depends. It depends on that story, on that relationship, 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.880 on that situation. And that's what I listened to really closely, 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.920 that these that this you know, this qualified advice isn't 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:53.600 about just some dispensing what should be. It's listening carefully 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:59.560 to what the person who's seeking advice wants and needs 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:01.520 and knows and fears. 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:04.600 It can be dangerous, though, can it be dangerous? 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:08.760 Like do you mean dangerous that? Like it's dangerous to 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:09.800 say I think you should do this? 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:14.080 I mean delicate or maybe dangerous isn't the proper word. 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.480 I shouldn't applay it. There's a delicacy with which you know, 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.639 these are basic strangers. Yeah, okay, so now you're trying 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.800 to get into their psyche, not just by using your 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.359 own experience, because maybe you did or didn't have a 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.760 husband who cheated on you. Right, But like if someone 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.560 said that, I would say, I can't answer that for you. 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:36.480 I can't. I can't say you should divorce this guy 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.639 you shouldn't. But I could say, well, tell me a 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:41.840 little bit more what led up to this? 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:42.240 Yeah? 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.359 And is what's happening in your heart when you realize that? 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:47.359 But here's what I do. 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:50.880 I whether it be even on the podcast. So whether 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:54.080 it's on the podcast or in the column, people have 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.280 written me a letter and they do say more than that. 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:58.320 You know, I wouldn't answer a letter that just said 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:00.879 my husband, she's obviously I break up with them. They 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:04.000 say all the things, and very often what I do 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:06.639 in my advice because I agree with you, you're right, 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:10.520 it's delicate, and I am so not like signing up 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.440 for telling people what to do and then be like, whoops, 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.280 that was a mistake. Yeah, I say to them, here's 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:19.680 what I hear you saying, you know, I hear you 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:24.280