1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: What do you do when life doesn't go according to 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: with a guest to talk about the times they were 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: answers one question, Now, what have your children ever if 12 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: they read everything that you've written? Do they what do 13 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 1: they feel about it? 14 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 2: They've read little bits of my work, and they've sometimes 15 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: been in the room when I've read work or talked 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: about it. But neither of them have yet like sat 17 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: down and read my books, which is kind of interesting. 18 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 3: It doesn't surprise me. 19 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: I think I always have had this idea that, like, 20 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 2: when they're about thirty, they'll be able to do that, 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 2: because you know, my work is so personal, there is 22 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: so much about my interior life. The other interesting thing is, 23 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: you know, I'm not sure if you know this book. 24 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: But my daughter Bobby, who's named after my mother, Bobby, 25 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 2: actually was. 26 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 3: In Wild, the movie. She played the young me. 27 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: So when Reese Witherspoone remembers her childhood, they're these flashbacks 28 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 2: and you see this blonde girl. Well, that's my daughter Bobby, 29 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 2: and she had just turned eight and she was. 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: In the movie. 31 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: And even though she was in the movie, they've neither 32 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: of my kids have ever watched the film. They just 33 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: think it's too much and it's so funny because their 34 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: friends have all watched the movie, their friends have read 35 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: the books, some of their friends have been assigned to 36 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 2: read the book in high school and college. And my 37 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: own kids hapened. But I think that it's also like, 38 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: really naturally. 39 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: My guest today has a way with words. Cheryl Strad 40 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: is a renowned author, public speaker, advice columnist, and podcast host. 41 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: Her books, including the New York Times bestseller Wild, have 42 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: sold millions of copies worldwide and have been adapted to 43 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: both big and small screen. I loved Hulu's version of 44 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: her book, Tiny Beautiful Things, and I marveled at both 45 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: the resilience of her spirit and the quality of her advice. 46 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: Cheryl's a celebrated essayist, a wife, a mom to two teenagers, 47 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: and I just think a genuinely kind person, a conversation 48 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: with a gift, and I'm grateful to her for allowing 49 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: me to share it with you all. So, without further ado, 50 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: here is Cheryl Strade. I'm so happy to talk to you. 51 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: Nice to meet you, Cheryl. 52 00:02:58,360 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 3: I'm so excited to meet you. 53 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: I was telling my daughter, who just turned eighteen on Sunday, 54 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: Oh boy, I was telling her this morning, I was 55 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: going to talk to you, And I was like, if 56 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: you had gone back in time and told my sixteen 57 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 2: year old self that I would ever get to talk 58 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: to Brookshields, I would never have believed you. 59 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 3: So I was telling her how much I've loved you 60 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 3: for so long. 61 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you. And if you had told me 62 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: at sixteen that I would be talking to such an 63 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: accomplished writer person human, I probably would have said, uh, 64 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: I don't think so like. I'm just like, I'm just 65 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: like a model and a you know, kind of actress. 66 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 3: Oh well, thank you. 67 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: So you've got two kids though, right, I. 68 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 3: Had two kids? Yeah, I have. 69 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: My son is a freshman at college. He just started 70 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: at university of Oregon last month, and my daughter is 71 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: a senior in high school. 72 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: Wow, I've got one who's will be going into her 73 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: junior year in college. She's a sophomore. And I've got 74 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: a senior in high school. So okay, I'm sure if 75 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: I were to ask you advice, you would give me 76 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: very healthy advice. But people know you from your books 77 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: predominantly they tell us a lot about you, which I believe, 78 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: but they don't tell you everything about you. And I 79 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: always am interested in how people describe themselves. So if 80 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: you were to have to describe yourself in your day 81 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: to day life right now, what would you say? 82 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: Oh, gosh, I think that I really am like many parents, 83 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: It's like they realize, Okay, I'm all these things in 84 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: my work life, but my main job is mommy. 85 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 3: I'm a mom. 86 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 2: And I really had this idea when my kids were 87 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: younger that when they got to be teenagers, that would 88 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: be a time that I could like kind of step 89 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 2: back and you know, you don't have to follow them 90 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 2: around at the playground anymore, but you have to do 91 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: other things that are really, I think equally demanding, and 92 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: especially these last few years brook where it's been what 93 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: I think of as like very high impact parents through 94 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 2: a pandemic and all of the changes that COVID brought 95 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: on in terms of like my kids were not in 96 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 2: school for a long time, they were navigating adolescents, which 97 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: is this time when, of course, all they wanted to 98 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 2: do was be with their friends. So it's been really 99 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: a very consuming part of my life. So I'm a mom. 100 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 2: I'm a partner to my wonderful husband who I've been 101 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: with since really I met him nine days after I 102 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: finished my hike on the Pacific Crest Trail, which I 103 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: wrote about in Wild, my husband, Brian Linstrom. And of 104 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: course I'm a writer, and as a writer, I wear 105 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: many hats. When I first started writing, I always thought 106 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: that I would be somebody who just wrote books. And 107 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 2: what's been really cool and fun about my career, and 108 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 2: I think so many of our careers what ends up 109 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: happening is is as you walk down the path, all 110 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: of these other paths open up. My writing led me, 111 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 2: for example, to write this Dear Sugar advice column, which 112 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: I never in my wildest amount and thought, you know, 113 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to write an advice column someday, And to 114 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: be a really central part of my work, well, I 115 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: do that or I've also branched out into I write 116 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: screenplays and I've been involved in television writing as well, 117 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,799 Speaker 2: and that's sort of a surprise. And then I also 118 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 2: have an accidental career, as you know. I had a 119 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: couple of podcasts, I do a lot of public speaking. 120 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 2: Those are things that were great surprises. So I'm a 121 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 2: bunch of different things. And I also am a cat 122 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: mom and a dog mom too. 123 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 3: We can't forget that. 124 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I'm interested in, first of all, how you're 125 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: because you were You were brought up very Let's talk 126 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: a little bit about your upbringing. And you lived in 127 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 1: a very rural community with your mom. Yeah, and that 128 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: meant what without. 129 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 3: Or a toilet? 130 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I had a really well first of all, 131 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: I was born in western Pennsylvania in Appalasia, my where 132 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: my father in this tiny town where my father had 133 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: grown up and his whole family, his father and grandfather, 134 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: were coal miners, and so I grew up, you know, 135 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: came from very humble beginnings. My parents had married in 136 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 2: the sixties because my mom, when they were dating, my 137 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: mom got pregnant and it was a very difficult marriage. 138 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: They had three kids together. I'm their middle. 139 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: Child, and by the time I was six, my parents 140 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: were divorced and I was living in a little town 141 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: outside of Minneapolis, about an hour outside of Minneapolis, where 142 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: my mom was a waitress and worked in a factory, 143 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 2: and we were you know, we received welfare, we were poor. 144 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 2: We were basically living hand to mouth, and by the 145 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: time I was a teenager, we had moved to northern Minnesota, 146 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 2: where we essentially were homesteaders. You know, we lived in 147 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: the woods, we built our own house with my by 148 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: then my stepfather, who was a carpenter, and we you know, 149 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: my mom and stepfather were in some ways kind of 150 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: back to the landers. 151 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 3: You know. 152 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: My mom certainly had a lot of values that were 153 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: out providing for yourself and growing your. 154 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 3: Own food and making things. But also we were broke. 155 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: You know, we didn't have an indoor toilet, not because 156 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: of any sort of political ideology. It was because we 157 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: couldn't afford to have one installed until I was actually 158 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 2: away at college. And so I grew up in a 159 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: really rustic way. I grew up with a lot of 160 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: financial struggle and strife, but I also grew up in 161 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: a really happy you know that was in so many 162 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: ways very much nurtured me and made me who I 163 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: am today. 164 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: How So, because I you know, you hear that story 165 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: more often than you hear you know, those born to privilege, 166 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: you know, don't have the understanding of have not or 167 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: or whatever. But how do you think that that that 168 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: experience and the memory of that experience from such a 169 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: young age, for as many years as you experienced it, 170 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: how do you think that that differentiated you or shaped 171 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: you differently and different from your peers. 172 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: Well, it's such a big question. I mean, we could 173 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: talk this whole hour about that, because I really do 174 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: think that, you know, when we use that word privilege, 175 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: we think of just a very specific things. And of course, 176 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: you know, people who have in this case, like economic 177 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: advantages that I didn't have have more. I also just 178 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,719 Speaker 2: want to share with you, Brooke, there was something that 179 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: my mom would always say to me, we aren't poor 180 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 2: because we're rich in love. And so there's a way 181 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: in which I was poor and unprivileged, and there was 182 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 2: a way in which I was rich and extremely privileged. 183 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 2: I have so many dear, dear friends who grew up 184 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 2: with great economic privilege and were poor in every other way, 185 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 2: and so I think it's really important to remember that 186 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 2: because love is the essential nutrient. I wrote that as sugar, 187 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: and I do believe it. And so an answer to 188 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 2: your question is I got plenty of that. 189 00:09:58,480 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 3: I had very. 190 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 2: Difficult experiences and trauma with my father, witnessing him physically 191 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: abuse my mother. I have also myself been a victim 192 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 2: of sexual abuse as a child. But and that's a 193 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: big but I had to heal those wounds. This isn't 194 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: to diminish that, but I did have a mother who 195 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: really loved me and my siblings, and she always made 196 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: us feel safe and secure, even when we were, you know, 197 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 2: really financially precarious and insecure. 198 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: And this was with your real biology, my biological father. 199 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: So he was violent and abusive and menacing, and that 200 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: those were really painful things. But my mother, you know, 201 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 2: eventually steered us out of there, and you know, we 202 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 2: I do think that that so many of the things 203 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 2: that made me are those difficult things, but also my mother, 204 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: who modeled resilience, who modeled the ability to walk in 205 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 2: the direction of the better thing. 206 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 3: You know. 207 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 2: I think think it's funny that, like I'm sort of 208 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 2: famous for walking, and I think like I can trace 209 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: that back to witnessing my mother walk walk out of 210 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: a marriage, walk away from something that was harmful, even 211 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 2: though that was, you know, all these other ways difficult 212 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: to do, and she was a very really self sufficient person. 213 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 3: You know. 214 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 2: I can describe my childhood in a lot of ways 215 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 2: where I say, well, we didn't have an indoor toilet, 216 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: or we didn't have this, or we didn't have that, 217 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: But I could also tell you so many things we 218 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 2: had what. 219 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: Has mostly helped you? How do you heal from that pain? 220 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 3: Yeah? 221 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: How did you know to do that? Because it's got 222 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: to be practiced over the years. 223 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 3: It does. That's it. 224 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: I mean, you put your finger on it. It is, 225 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 2: you know that we find healing through learning how to 226 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: tell our stories and also to revise our stories to 227 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 2: be able to have some perspective. I have always said, 228 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: I really do believe in the power of art because 229 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: it is essentially telling us the story back to us 230 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: of what we already know. What it means to be human, 231 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 2: what it means to love, to lose, to heal, to 232 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 2: triumph over over the things that have traumatized us, you know, 233 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 2: and so so much of I think the way we 234 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 2: think about the world is dichotomy. Right, You're either a 235 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 2: victim or you're not, or you're weak, or you're strong, 236 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 2: or you're this, or you're that, you're damaged, or your 237 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: whole you know, you're broken, or your whole. And I 238 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 2: have always been such a believer that we're all of 239 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: those things at once that I can say to you, yeah, 240 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: those I had some horrible traumas as a child, and 241 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 2: those things don't just go away because I snap my fingers. 242 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: They are always with me. But over time, what I 243 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 2: did is I learned how to allow myself the pain 244 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 2: of those experiences. I allowed myself the understanding of those experiences, 245 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: and I allowed myself to tell i'll revise story about 246 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: those experiences. 247 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 3: Now. 248 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 2: Of course, it took something from me to be sexually 249 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: abused by my grandfather, for example, it also eventually gave 250 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: me something back in my ability to understand how it 251 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 2: is sometimes those who are suffering make other people suffer, 252 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: how it is sometimes we have to walk through and 253 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: learn how to carry those ugly things we wish we 254 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 2: didn't have to carry, and how we can let those 255 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: negative experiences make us actually not only stronger, but able 256 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 2: to help others by telling the story of that experience. 257 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: I'm so deeply moved by your insight, you know, in 258 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: your compassion. You Now if you've done a lot of therapy. 259 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 3: Too, you know I haven't. 260 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: That is Oh, I hate you. I've been in therapy 261 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: forever and it's the only reason why I feel sort of, 262 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: you know, grounded. I know, yes, is you naturally this? 263 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 3: I mean I think that this is my interviews. 264 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 2: I've never been through therapy, you know, really, so, I 265 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: mean I've done I've done therapy like with my kids 266 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 2: and stuff like that, but I, like myself, have never 267 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: fully gone through therapy. But let me tell you. My 268 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: theory of that book is that because at first it 269 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: was really just a socioeconomic thing. Like I didn't grow 270 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 2: up in a culture or community where people went to therapy, 271 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: you know, Like I have friends who grew up in 272 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 2: New York City in LA and they're like they were 273 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 2: in therapy like age eight and a half, you know 274 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: what I mean. 275 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 3: It's just like how it is. 276 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: And like I grew up in northern Minnesota, and also 277 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: I'm fifty five, so generationally, like it wasn't just it. 278 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 3: Hadn't really seeped into the culture in the way it 279 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 3: has now. 280 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: Back when I was younger, so I couldn't and then 281 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: and then in my young adult years, I couldn't afford it, 282 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: you know, I didn't have holll insurance. And then now 283 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: that I'm old enough, it was like, Okay, what I 284 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: realized is has been such a therapeutic act for me. Accidentally, 285 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 2: I was doing what we do in therapy, like when 286 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: you write about your life, you have to deeply, deeply, 287 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: you know, interrogate your assumptions. You have to think about 288 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 2: other perspectives, like when you wrote about your mom and 289 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: I've written about my mom. You know, there is if 290 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 2: you're going to actually write something that's worth reading and 291 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 2: we're sharing with other people, you have to really struggle 292 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: to get to the truth. 293 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 3: And the truth isn't just your truth. 294 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: And that is one thing that what I've really found 295 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: from Deer Sugar, which was a popular advice column that 296 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: you just contributed to right and then it became a podcast, 297 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: is that. 298 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 3: No I wrote the column. 299 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: So I first wrote the column for The Rumpust and 300 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 2: I still write it. It's a monthly column. I have 301 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: a subtech newsletter, but I took so I wrote. I 302 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 2: wrote it for The Rumpus for a couple of years. 303 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: It became my collection Tiny Beautiful Things. Then I stopped 304 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: writing it for a little while, and I did a 305 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 2: podcast for The New York Times in w R called 306 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: Dear Sugars with my co host Steve Allman. Then we 307 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 2: stopped doing that, and then I picked up writing it 308 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: again monthly for my Substeck newsletter and recently well to 309 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: sort of at the same time that the TV adaptation 310 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: came out. Earlier this year, Hulu released Tiny Beautiful Things, 311 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: the TV show Starry Katherine Hans Katherine Han, Who's amazing, 312 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: And at that time we reissued Tiny Beautiful Things the 313 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: tenth anniversary with some new columns. So it's really like 314 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: this whole deer sugar giving advice thing, Brooke. That's such 315 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: a prime example of when I said, all these paths 316 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: presented themselves, Dear Sugar has taken me on a journey. 317 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: It makes me think that you were, in some way 318 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: always a listener, a watcher, an advice giver. Do you 319 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: think that's just in your DNA. 320 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: Like I do. I do you know? 321 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 3: And I think it's connected to. 322 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 2: Me being a writer and not just being a writer, 323 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 2: but really essentially being feeling called to be a writer. 324 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 2: I have always been somebody who felt like the way 325 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 2: I could contribute to the world, you know, the thing 326 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 2: I had to give was to tell stories, to write stories, 327 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: to make people feel less alone through words. And when 328 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: I think about the things that have helped me in 329 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 2: my life over time, it's almost always a book or 330 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 2: a poem or you know, an essay that made me 331 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 2: feel seen and recognized and validated and inspired or consoled 332 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: and so in the form of their Sugar, when I 333 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 2: had the opportunity to write this column, I first wrote 334 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 2: it anonymously and then revealed my identity as Sugar. I thought, okay, 335 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: this is interesting because I can use this in a 336 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 2: really practical way, like writing can actually be directly helpful 337 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 2: to people. And I didn't know, you know, I was like, listen, 338 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 2: I've never been through therapy, I've never taken. 339 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 3: A psychology class. But what I did know was the 340 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 3: human condition. 341 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 2: I mean, as a writer, that's which when you apprentice 342 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 2: yourself to the craft of writing, it's not just forming 343 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 2: sentences in metaphors and so forth. It's actually understanding how 344 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 2: you know what motivates or animates this person, what scares 345 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: this person, this character? Right, And so I applied that 346 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: kind of thinking to these letters. And as for the 347 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 2: empathy piece, you know, yeah, I've always tended to be 348 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: somebody who suffered at the idea of others suffering, and 349 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 2: Brooke one of the things I learned right away is 350 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 2: that the only way I could possibly give people advice 351 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: as sugar was. 352 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 3: I couldn't judge them. 353 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 2: Whatever you say to me about what you did or 354 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 2: you regret or your fear or you're you know, messing up, 355 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: I'm going to say, I'm going to validate you, and 356 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 2: I'm going to hold you with with loving kind and 357 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: I'm going to write to you from that position, even 358 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 2: if I ultimately say things that maybe, like, you know, 359 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: challenge you. For example, you could say, like, you know, 360 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: we could put out like if we could put a 361 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 2: poll out right now and go, Okay, my husband cheated 362 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: on me, Should I divorce him? 363 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 3: Yes or no? 364 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 2: Like, and then people would like they would vote yes 365 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 2: or no based on like whatever actually they bring to it, 366 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 2: like their ideas, their assumptions, their history. But the truth 367 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 2: is we don't know the answer to that question because 368 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 2: actually It depends. It depends on that story, on that relationship, 369 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 2: on that situation. And that's what I listened to really closely, 370 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 2: that these that this you know, this qualified advice isn't 371 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 2: about just some dispensing what should be. It's listening carefully 372 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 2: to what the person who's seeking advice wants and needs 373 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 2: and knows and fears. 374 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: It can be dangerous, though, can it be dangerous? 375 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 3: Like do you mean dangerous that? Like it's dangerous to 376 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 3: say I think you should do this? 377 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: I mean delicate or maybe dangerous isn't the proper word. 378 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: I shouldn't applay it. There's a delicacy with which you know, 379 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: these are basic strangers. Yeah, okay, so now you're trying 380 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: to get into their psyche, not just by using your 381 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: own experience, because maybe you did or didn't have a 382 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: husband who cheated on you. Right, But like if someone 383 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: said that, I would say, I can't answer that for you. 384 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: I can't. I can't say you should divorce this guy 385 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: you shouldn't. But I could say, well, tell me a 386 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: little bit more what led up to this? 387 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 3: Yeah? 388 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: And is what's happening in your heart when you realize that? 389 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 3: But here's what I do. 390 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 2: I whether it be even on the podcast. So whether 391 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 2: it's on the podcast or in the column, people have 392 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: written me a letter and they do say more than that. 393 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: You know, I wouldn't answer a letter that just said 394 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 2: my husband, she's obviously I break up with them. They 395 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 2: say all the things, and very often what I do 396 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 2: in my advice because I agree with you, you're right, 397 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: it's delicate, and I am so not like signing up 398 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: for telling people what to do and then be like, whoops, 399 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 2: that was a mistake. Yeah, I say to them, here's 400 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 2: what I hear you saying, you know, I hear you 401 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 2: saying you don't, you know, believe you'll ever feel safe 402 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: again in this relationship, So maybe you should trust that. 403 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: Or I hear you saying you understand that people make mistakes, 404 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: and your partner is telling you he regrets this, and 405 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 2: you feel like that there's a way that you could 406 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 2: work this out, So maybe trust that. 407 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 3: Like I very often say back to people, I. 408 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 2: Mean, I'm just using this infidelity as one example, but 409 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: very often they kind of tell me in their letter 410 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 2: what they know they want to do, what their gut is, 411 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: and what I say is I affirm that and I 412 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 2: show it to them. Very often people are afraid to 413 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: know what they know. They're afraid to know they what 414 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 2: they most want because once they know it, they have 415 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 2: to act on it. So if somebody is writing to 416 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 2: me and saying, I'm an attorney, but I've always dreamed 417 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 2: of being a writer, should I quit my job? You know, 418 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 2: and they tell the whole story about how their heart 419 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 2: sings when they're writing, an aches when they're writing. I say, like, listen, 420 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: you know what you want to do. You just need 421 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 2: me to say it's okay that you do what you 422 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 2: want to do, even if you end up failing, you know, 423 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 2: And I think that that's a glorious that to me. 424 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: You know, it's if the qualification to be what I 425 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: am an advice colmnist is to listen deeply. The best 426 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 2: advice I can ever give is not listen to me, 427 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 2: trust me, I know the path. It's listen to yourself. 428 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: Trust yourself. You know the path, and you have the power, 429 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 2: the courage and the strength to walk in. 430 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: I named this podcast now What because it is about 431 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: those rather pivotal but good or bad moments in our lives. 432 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: You know, the times that we have to really look 433 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: at our current reality and ask ourselves, now, what the 434 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: hell do I do in this scenario? And I'd be 435 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: really interested to know what and now what moment for 436 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: you has been or is that? I'm sure we all 437 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: have many yes, but does one stick out to you? 438 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 3: Well? Absolutely? You know, when I came to the end 439 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 3: of my hike on the Pacific Crest Trail. 440 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: I had long did it take you again? Remind me? 441 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 2: Because I was out there for ninety four days, and 442 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 2: you know, I had really gone on that hike. I 443 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 2: was twenty six when I took the hike. I finished 444 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 2: it two days before my twenty seventh birthday. And I 445 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 2: had gone on the hike really to heal myself. My 446 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 2: mother had died very suddenly of cancer at the age 447 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: of forty five a few years before. And there's no 448 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: other way to put it. My life had gone off 449 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 2: the rails, you know, and I thought I had a 450 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 2: kind of awakening moment where I thought, where who am 451 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 2: I anymore? You know, in my grief, I have given 452 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 2: up this sort of ambition of being a writer. I 453 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 2: had just gotten involved with drugs and just led myself 454 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: down a self destructive path. And so hiking the PCT 455 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 2: was away for me, not so much to change myself, 456 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 2: but to find myself again, to come to bring myself 457 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 2: back to my strength. 458 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: And when I. 459 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: Finished my hike, I really had this glorious feeling of 460 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 2: what next. And what was cool about being able to 461 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 2: ask that question at the end of that big journey 462 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 2: is that I felt okay. I felt that I had 463 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: through taking that journey, grounded myself in a way that 464 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 2: even though I didn't know the answer, I didn't know 465 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 2: where I was going to live, I didn't know what 466 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 2: I was going to do to earn money. I didn't 467 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 2: know when I was going to finally see through that 468 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: dream of writing my first book. But what I knew 469 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 2: is at core I could do all of those things that. 470 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 3: I would be okay. 471 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: And if I can also add I'm kind of in 472 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 2: that moment right now. I'm fifty five, my son's it's 473 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 2: freshmen in college, my daughter's a senior in high school. 474 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: My children are growing up and moving on, and I 475 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 2: who am I? And I've been really asking myself And 476 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 2: it's interesting that I began my answer to you with 477 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 2: this journey, this big journey that shook me up and 478 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: allowed me to see myself more clearly and I have 479 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 2: to say, Brook, I think that what's next for me 480 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 2: in this next big transition is I need to go 481 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 2: on a journey again. 482 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 3: Because I don't know the answer. 483 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: To that question. 484 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 2: I know that there's a big life shift on the 485 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 2: Herriz very close, and I feel like I need to 486 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 2: retreat and do something hard like I did on the 487 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: PCT in order to see what's next. 488 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: It's not a natural journey to success, but I'm curious 489 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 1: about the journey to commercial success. 490 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 491 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: It's a lot to navigate and it's a lot to 492 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: grapple with, and I'm curious as to how it affected 493 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: you and if fame in the in and of itself, 494 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: whatever that word means, has that changed your relationship with 495 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: other writers? Could you talk to me just a little 496 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: bit about your journey to success and how it has changed, Yeah, 497 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: fundamental parts of your life and people. 498 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're I mean, the first thing I want 499 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 2: to say is So Wild was published when I was 500 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 2: forty three, and I'm so, so so grateful that I 501 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 2: was a real grown up before I became famous and 502 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: before I had that kind of success for a couple 503 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 2: of reasons. One the one is, first of all, it 504 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: allowed me to write my own definition of success. 505 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 3: Wild is not my first book. 506 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 2: My first book is a novel called Torch, and I 507 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 2: before that had published several essays, a couple of which 508 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 2: were in Best American Essays. I was a successful writer 509 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 2: before Wild was published. Now I was, and by a 510 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: successful writer, I mean I was successful in the way 511 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: that most writers are successful, which is to say, known 512 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 2: to a fairly small orbit of people who are tuned 513 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: into literary America. And I really realized in that, you know, 514 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 2: in those younger years, in my twenties and thirties, when 515 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: I was writing my first novel and writing those essays 516 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 2: and stories that were being published, I realized, okay, you know, 517 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: success for writers or most artists. In fact, I'd say 518 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 2: all artists isn't money and fame. What they're doing is 519 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 2: they're out there creating and making art and they're barely 520 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: piecing together a living. But really the way they measure 521 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: success is by doing the work, By doing the work 522 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 2: and giving it they're all and connecting with an audience, 523 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: even if it's a small audience. Right. So I really 524 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 2: attached myself to that idea of success. That's what success 525 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 2: looked like to me. And I was My dreams came 526 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 2: true before Wild was published. Then Wild came along, Bam, 527 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 2: my life absolutely exploded, bloated. It was an international bestseller. 528 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 2: It was an Opra pick withtherspoons start, you know, all 529 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: all that stuff. And I felt like I was on 530 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 2: a rocket ride, you know. I was like all the 531 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 2: all the metaphors. There was a volcano, there was a rocket, 532 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 2: there was a tornado. There was everything right, and I 533 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 2: was at the center of it. And what was really 534 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 2: cool to me is that I because I was a 535 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: grown up in my forties by then, I was really 536 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: grounded in this feeling of like, wow, okay, this is 537 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: this other kind of a success, this very external success. 538 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: You know. 539 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: It didn't change my life inside myself. I had already 540 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,479 Speaker 2: felt like I'm a writer and I'm successful, and then 541 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 2: this other thing happened. And the biggest change was, for 542 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: the first time in my life, I could afford to 543 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 2: pay my bills without struggling strife. But it didn't shift 544 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 2: who I was in the world. Now other people would 545 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: project that onto me. The other people would be like, oh, 546 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 2: you know, now you must be moving to la I 547 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 2: live in Portland, Oregon. I'd be like why am I moving? 548 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 2: Why I don't even understand now you must be sending 549 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 2: your kids to a fancy school. 550 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 3: No, my kids are still at public school. Like you know. 551 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 3: They would project a narrative onto me, and it was uncomfortable. 552 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: That happens with people though that's their name. I think 553 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: people and their nature like wanna because because then then 554 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: they can criticize it. 555 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: Right. 556 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: Then they turn around and like, oh, so you're fancy. 557 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 2: Now, well right, and they would say, now people met 558 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 2: me think you're just so like down to earth and earth. 559 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 3: Why wouldn't I be like what like what? 560 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 2: I don't understand why I wouldn't be And so yeah, 561 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 2: and so that's that whole experience did did change my life, 562 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: and I will say I'm so grateful for it because 563 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 2: of course, what a thing to be able to connect 564 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 2: with such a big audience. 565 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: But I also think that, like you know, people have said, 566 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: what does success mean to you? To me and to me, 567 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: it's the ability to keep working, you know. To me, 568 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: that's like longevity. If I had to pick one word, 569 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: it would be longevity. The work is appealing, the registering 570 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: with other people, making someone laugh, you know, and this 571 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: is what you're saying you're you're saying that that that 572 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: ability to do what you're put on this earth for 573 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: which or you believe you are, that to move people, 574 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: to put them in a place where they can experience. Period. 575 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: You mentioned needing another type of wild type of journey. 576 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: Do you think there's any ideas of what you might 577 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: want to do? 578 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 3: I need a mild, A mild journey, A mild. 579 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: Instead of wild, Okay, just a little more maybe self 580 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: loving and less painful. 581 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 582 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe a bed like you know, instead of sleeping 583 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: on the in the dirt, you know, in the tent. 584 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I shoes that fit. 585 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 2: I don't know exactly. I mean, I'm a real and 586 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: I want to say too, I do think the journey. Obviously, 587 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 2: travel is a wonderful way to journey, and it might 588 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 2: be the way I choose to journey in this next 589 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 2: era to but I think a journey can also be 590 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 2: an experience or an era of your life in which 591 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: you delve into something deeply. So again, you know, and 592 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: I use this phrase earlier so that you can more 593 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 2: clearly see yourself in your situation or this time of 594 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 2: your life, and to answer that big question of what 595 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 2: next it's a sort of stepping out of the usual. 596 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 2: And you can do that right at home. I mean, 597 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 2: it takes some real intention, but you can do that. 598 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 2: And I haven't yet figured out what it's going to 599 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 2: be for me. I just know that when something is 600 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 2: big as this era of my life, of you know, 601 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: bringing these two children to adulthood, raising them to adulthood, 602 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: giving them everything I could give them, when that comes 603 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 2: to an end, and of course, and I'm using that 604 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,239 Speaker 2: very softly because you know, our kids still need us 605 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 2: very much. 606 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: It's even worse. 607 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, a certain time of our of 608 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 2: a certain era has come to it is coming to 609 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 2: an end very soon, and I need to shake up 610 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 2: my life to see what it is next. 611 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 3: And I don't know what it will be. 612 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: That was Cheryl Strade. If you want to hear more 613 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: from her, check out the TV adaptation of her best 614 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: selling collection of Deer Sugar Collar, Tiny Beautiful Things, streaming 615 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: now on Hulu. That's it for us today, Talk to 616 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: you next week now. What with Burke Shields is a 617 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. Our lead producer and wonderful showrunner is 618 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: Julia Weaver. Additional research and editing by Darby Masters and 619 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: Abu zafar Our. Executive producer is Christina Everett. The show 620 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: is mixed by Bahed Fraser.