1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from How Stup 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: Works Not Come Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And this week on the show 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about friendship. And today we're talking 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: about something called the shine theory, which has to do 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: with women and success and friendship, which is going to 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: lead us into conversations about jealousy and competition within female 8 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: friendships in particular. Um. And the thing is, Caroline on 9 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never told you, we root for sisters doing 10 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: it for themselves and succeeding all the time. We're all 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: about that. We're all about uplift and empowerment. But what 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: happens when your friend becomes really successful, or if you're 13 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: someone who meets someone else who might feel out of 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: your league success wise? How do we deal with those 15 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: feelings of maybe unworthiness friendship wise, or competition or envy 16 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: that might naturally arise in these relationships. Well, first of all, 17 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 1: envy is, as we'll get into, totally natural, totally normal 18 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: might even have its roots and some sort of evolutionary 19 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: psychology purpose. Um. So, you know, when we were all 20 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: hunter gatherers on the planes and I was envious of 21 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: your spear. You know, that would encourage me to get 22 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: a better sphere myself. But it can sure create kind 23 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: of a sticky situation when it is in your friend group. Yeah. 24 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 1: And there's even a song about this, by the way, 25 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: for Morrissey fans out there. We hate it when our 26 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: friends become successful. If you want to just listen to 27 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: that while we're talking about this, be perfect. Um. But 28 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: first off, we thought we should kick off with some 29 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: wise words from a couple of the most successful women 30 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: out there, because they have some pretty insightful things to 31 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: say about how you should treat successful women or sucessful 32 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: people in general. So Amy Poehler, godmother of stuff, Mom 33 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: never told you in spirit, she doesn't know this, but 34 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: she is. Um. She was talking in her book, Yes 35 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: please about success. I mean obviously she's best friends with 36 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: the even more successful Tina Fey, and she said quote, 37 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: rooting for other people's failure does get in the way 38 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: of your success. So it's that whole warning against kind 39 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: of watch out for your own schadenfreud. Yeah, exactly, And 40 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: I mean I think that's a great attitude. There's there's 41 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: sort of an ugliness and I don't mean physical ugliness, 42 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: I mean an internal ugliness obviously to rooting against someone, 43 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: especially if they are your friend. And Taylor Swift, who 44 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: we've talked about recently and who we did mention quite 45 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: a bit about her very high profile lady friendships, she 46 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: talked too about how she surrounds herself with smart, beautiful, passionate, driven, 47 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: ambitious women, and she says other women who were killing 48 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: it should motivate you, thrill you, challenge you, and inspire you, 49 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: rather than threaten you and make you feel like you're 50 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: immediately being compared to them. Now some might hear them 51 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: and say, well, t Swizzle, it's so easy for you 52 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: to say that because you're so singularly successful. She's in 53 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: her own league, like no one can really compete with 54 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: her except maybe Katie Perry. But we're not going to 55 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: get ane of that. Um So what about in our more? 56 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: What about for for folks like you? And make Caroline Well, 57 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: I think we can transition pretty well off of Taylor 58 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: Swift because Marcy Bianco over at Mike was sort of 59 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: looking into Taylor's comments about not only friendship and lady friends, 60 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: but also feminism and saying that the message is quote 61 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: that to gain power, we have to champion women who 62 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: have access to it. And this is sort of the 63 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: basis for what an Freedman calls the shine theory. Yeah, 64 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: we've started in Freedman so many times on the podcast. 65 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: She is a freelance roter. You've probably seen her work 66 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: in New York Magazine. She writes regularly elsewhere as well, 67 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: and she also hosts a podcast called Call Your Girlfriend 68 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: with one of her very successful lady friends. And she 69 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: wrote this piece in York Magazine in two thirteen I 70 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: believe about shine theory, and it went viral. I mean, 71 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: it might partially be because it was headlined why powerful 72 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: women make the best friends, um, but it it definitely 73 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: started a lot of conversations. And one thing that she 74 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 1: says in this piece is quote, when you meet a 75 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: woman who is intimidatingly witty, stylish, beautiful and professionally accomplished, 76 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: befriend her. In other words, you know what I had 77 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: to do with Caroline. You know, surrounding yourself with the 78 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: best people doesn't make you look worse by comparison, It 79 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,119 Speaker 1: makes you look better. And again, why am I sitting 80 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: so close to Caroline? Answer? She's shining upon me. This 81 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: is literally we're sitting in a long dining room, Davil 82 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: and Kristen is literally sitting next day. I don't understand 83 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: side by side, but honestly, it's cold in here, so 84 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: it's keeping me warm, right, And so she uses the 85 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: example of Kelly Rowland and Beyonce because you know, they 86 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: were all in the same group together along with Michelle 87 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,119 Speaker 1: Let's not forget poor Michelle UM. But Beyonce of course 88 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: blew up and became the social phenomenon, and Kelly Rowland 89 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: herself has an incredibly successful career. I mean, like I'd 90 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: like to put out records and be a judge on 91 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: The X Factor if that's in fact the show that 92 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: she's on. UM. But basically, Kelly Rowland had to work 93 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: through her own envy issues with Beyonce and even wrote 94 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: a song about it about seeing your friend blow up 95 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: and becomes so successful and having to deal with those 96 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: kind of feelings of being left behind. But yeah, so 97 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: Friedman talks about how Kelly Rowland great example because she's 98 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: positioning herself next to Beyonce and she's all the better 99 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: for it, not worse for it. And when she published 100 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: this song that was autobiographical about her gel see of 101 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,559 Speaker 1: Beyonce and coming to terms with that Beyonce then listen 102 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: to it and then send Kelly an email or maybe 103 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: a text message. I don't know how they communicate, and 104 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: he's like, Hey, that was really amazing and honest and 105 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: thank you for being you, And I wish I could 106 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: get a text like that from Beyonce. Maybe it was 107 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: a singing telegram the jamogram, but oh cool, alright, cool 108 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: as if it happened. Um. So, the basic idea is 109 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: that the people we surround ourselves with not not only 110 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: reflect who we are, but they should reflect who we 111 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: want to be. And so by befriending and bonding with powerful, 112 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: awesome women, you're helping build your own personal network, whether 113 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: that's for your personal life or for your professional life, 114 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: and that your friends should really encourage you to be better, 115 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: not drag you down. Yeah, and this does remind me 116 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: of stuff my mom told me when I was a kid, 117 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: in terms of you are the company that you keep, 118 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: so be careful of the friends that you make. And 119 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: it seems like a grown up version of that in 120 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: a way, because it's not only sort of holding yourself 121 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: to a higher standard by virtue of these powerful, successful 122 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: people holding you more accountable, but also allowing maybe outspoken 123 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: friends in your life to kind of call you out 124 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: when you need to be called out a little bit 125 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: for maybe going on dates with questionable people, or maybe 126 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: not being as ambitious as as you possibly could be 127 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: those kinds of things as well. Yeah, and she cites 128 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: Joe Freeman's nineteen seventy six essay on feminists not necessarily 129 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: doing this, not necessarily being supportive of one another. So 130 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: it's not like feminist or some magical unicorn group of 131 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: women who are immune from some of the less desirable 132 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: personality traits when it comes to friendship. And in that essay, 133 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: Freeman's sites and Selma Delolo, who said, quote achieving our 134 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: accomplishment of any kind with seemed to be the worst crime. 135 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: You're immediately labeled a thrill seeking opportunist, a ruthless mercenary 136 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: out to make her fame and fortune over the dead 137 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: bodies of selfless sisters who have buried their abilities and 138 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: sacrifice their ambitions for the greater glory of feminism. Wow, 139 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: and I mean and that rings true today as well, 140 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: not just within feminism but in our friendships in general, 141 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: and it doesn't help that. And we'll talk about this 142 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: more in deathIn later in the podcast. That a lot 143 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: of times of female friendships that have been modeled for 144 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: us in pop culture have always had those undercurrents of 145 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: competition and I hate to use this word, but cattiness. Yeah, exactly, 146 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: And I mean one important feminist figure who's always argued 147 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: for women supporting one another is Glorious Steinum and Kristen 148 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: and I heard firsthand gloriou stin Um talking about the 149 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: importance of even if you disagree with someone, supporting them 150 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: in their efforts to do bad her. Yeah, And going 151 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: back to Amy Poehler, she has a great one liner 152 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: about that, which is simply good for you, not for me. 153 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: And that's fine, and that's all it has to be. Um. 154 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: But the thing is, especially when we're talking about this 155 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: within the context of feminism, the more we get distracted 156 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: by fighting monkst ourselves and competing and fuming with jealousy, 157 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: it does give away ground to the status quo and 158 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: a patriarchy because it is a distraction away from doing 159 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: the work right exactly. Some people, though, did not like 160 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: this shine theory uh Slates Hanna Rosen was not a 161 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: huge fan of this idea because she saw it as 162 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: too calculating. She basically called it forming a strategic alliance 163 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: instead of forming an actual, genuine friendship. And she wonders whether, 164 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: according to this theory, that you know, if you've surrounded 165 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: yourself purposely with all of these powerful, really super ambitious women, 166 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: if one of them loses a job, goes through a 167 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: hard time, you finds herself in a funk for three 168 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: weeks and doesn't get out of her pajamas, do you 169 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: have to kick her out of your of your high 170 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: powered social group all of a sudden, or if or 171 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: if she shows any type of jealousy or weakness. Yeah, 172 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: funnily enough, she thinks of the advice is quote old fashioned, 173 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: a relic from the days when women didn't see themselves 174 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: as worthy competition for men, so they fought one another 175 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: for scraps, which is a pretty damning assessment. Yeah. She 176 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: suggests instead that if you're going to try to have 177 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: a strategy for your friendships, that you should try compartmentalizing 178 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: between your professional acquaintances and your actual really close lady 179 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: friends and then just recognize and ride out the waves 180 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: of envy as they come and go. So basically you 181 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: have these different friend groups for different purposes, one of 182 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: which is your true genuine group of friends. One is 183 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: the kind of friends that you have to help you 184 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: get ahead, um, and that you can use them to 185 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: sort of kind of let off steam about the other 186 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: group when you need to. While overall, I by the 187 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: shine theory, but there is it seems like there needs 188 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: to be this distinction between what the shine theory is, 189 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: which seems like it's more along the lines of friendly 190 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: networking rather than cultivating best friendships. Right, Because the feeling 191 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: that I got having read that and then reading Rosen's 192 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: column about it was that, Yeah, the shine theory is 193 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: great in that, yes, you should always encourage your lady friends, 194 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: and you should always strive to be the most genuine 195 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: supportive friend that you can and hope that you receive 196 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: that same treatment. Um in response. But yeah, I almost 197 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: feel like that might be a recipe for not so 198 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: genuine friendships and even the development of like a friend 199 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: of me relationship, which you and I have also talked about. Yeah. Well, 200 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: I was actually bene listening to call your girlfriend over 201 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: the weekend in Freedman's podcast, and they mentioned the shine theory, 202 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: and her co host said, oh, well, and you know, 203 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: I don't shine if you don't shine, And that kind 204 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: of hammered at home a little bit more to me, 205 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: of like, Okay, that makes more sense than a day 206 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: to day with your friends. Of like you, we want 207 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: to help each other be the best ladies that we 208 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: can be through our friendship. I get that. But yeah, 209 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 1: there's also the factor to where, especially if you're a 210 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: career oriented woman who spends a lot of time and 211 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: invest a lot of mental and emotional energy into her job, 212 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: I should just make this first person because I'm talking 213 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: about myself. I've found that that it's really important for 214 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: me to have friends where career is not a topic 215 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: that we even really go to, you know, like I 216 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: feel like we need a break from it at some point. 217 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,359 Speaker 1: It is nice to talk to people with other passions 218 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: and with their energy being directed in different areas instead 219 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: of just you know, people exactly like yourself all the time. Yeah, 220 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: and I think you have to it goes both ways 221 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: to like to the point of what Hanna Rosen was 222 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: saying about, well, what if you have a friend who 223 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: lost a job. What if you have a friend who's 224 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: not so successful. Do you kick her out of the club? No? 225 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: And I think that it's you have to keep that 226 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: in mind too, when if you are the more successful friend, 227 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: how you treat and talk to your friends who are 228 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: maybe taking different paths than you are, and accepting that 229 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: as well. So it's a I mean, I like the 230 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: shine theory. I like the concept of the shine theory, 231 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: but as always, there's clearly more nuanced to it than 232 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: just make friends with powerful women, right exactly. Um, And 233 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: of course if you are the more successful woman, then 234 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: chances are some people in your social group might be 235 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: envious of the things that you've accomplished. Yeah, And there 236 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: has been a lot of research on jealousy and envy 237 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: in general. So first we want to share a few 238 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: facts about the purpose of jealousy why it exists, because 239 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: it seems like this, well, it is a negative emotion, 240 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: but it does have a purpose in the natural world. 241 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: And we're citing a paper by Sarah E. Hill and 242 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: David M. Bus called the Evolutionary Psychology of Envy. Right, 243 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: super interesting stuff that if you read it, and I 244 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: encourage you to do so, it makes you feel like 245 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: way less of a crazy person. Oh yeah, envy is 246 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: Envy is supernatural. It is I mean super natural to words, 247 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: not supernatural as in a deity. Um right, It is 248 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: innate and it likely played a role in like I 249 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: talked about earlier, getting the better spear, resource acquisition, and 250 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: human survival because it motivates certain things like submission, ambition, 251 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: or destruction. Basically, you choose between like I'm super envious. 252 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: That means I'm getting ambition, I might acquire something better 253 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: or find a way to do it myself, or you 254 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: know something terrible, like ah, you've got the better spear, 255 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: so I'll destroy yours that I feel better about myself. 256 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: But let's move away from spears and actually talk about 257 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: social groups, which is what we're here to actually talk about. 258 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: And envy has really been shown to lead to basically 259 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: talking smack about a person to your peer group because 260 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: that helps lower or it can help lower an opinion 261 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: of someone. So that's that's another like peer group focused 262 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: way of using envy as a destruction tool. But it's 263 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: a secretive emotion because we know it's negative and we 264 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: don't want to admit that we're being outperformed because what 265 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: does that mean? Envy is like Okay, you have something 266 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: that I really want, so I'm feeling envious of you, 267 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: and that might spark a whole slough of negative emotions 268 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: like hostility and insecurity and all this stuff. But I 269 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: don't want to tell this other person over here Kristen 270 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: had something that I want, because that just makes me 271 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: seem like, oh, well, I don't have enough for I 272 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: don't have what I need or should have exactly, which 273 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: is where shine theory would come in to say, rather 274 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: than giving into your insecurity, take advantage of it, befriend 275 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: make a you know, build the bridge between you and 276 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: that thing that you want. And shine theory jumped out 277 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: in this paper when they noted that quote. Researchers have 278 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: long noted that people reserve their feelings of enviousness for 279 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: those who are similar to themselves and for advantages that 280 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: are in self relevant domains. In other words, it's understandable 281 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: that we might have feelings of envy for the women 282 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: who are surrounding us, especially if they're in similar kinds 283 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: of careers or industries, because it tends to crop up 284 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: the most around the people who are the most like us. 285 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: Because that would lead us to think, well, you have 286 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: everything that I have. But except for that one thing, 287 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: why does your hair look amazing every single day? That's right, Chris, 288 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about me. Yeah, and that hair thing 289 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: is not just a joke, I mean plays into an 290 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: evolutionary psychology theory on women's envy. In particular, we tend 291 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 1: to have greater envy and response to our same sex 292 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: peers being more attractive, whereas guys are more envious of 293 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: richer or guys with better resources. And that you know, 294 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: goes back to Okay, well what do men and women want? Traditionally, 295 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: and women are seeking to be provided for and men 296 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: are seeking a hot, fertile, young mate basically, I know. Yeah, 297 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: there's always there's always that factory and evolutionary psychology, it 298 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: seems like. But I did find it interesting that the 299 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: researchers mentioned that envy should peak during our peak reproductive years. Yeah, so, 300 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: because it's all about ultimately, according to evolutionary psychology, it 301 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: ultimately as is everything about babies. Yeah, fighting for resources 302 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: and those resources are firm, Yes, but there's there's also 303 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: been a lot of non evolutionary psychology research conducted on 304 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: jealousy and competition within female friendships, and it starts long 305 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: before our careers get off the ground. And one of 306 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: the most fascinating things to me about gender differences in 307 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: friendships that you see come up a lot in studies 308 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: is that girls tend to hold their girl friends and 309 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: I mean girl like young girls tend to hold their 310 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: girlfriends to hire standards, we think about friendships more often. 311 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: We expect more things like kindness, loyalty, and commitment from 312 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: our friends. We self disclose more to our girlfriends. I 313 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: mean think about I mean just the excitement of telling 314 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,239 Speaker 1: or hearing a secret from a friend when you were 315 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: a girl. I mean, that was that was so much 316 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: of what it was. And while that establishes the foundation 317 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: for girl friendships being so incredible, it also sets us 318 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: up though, for chealousea and disappointment and competition too, because 319 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: we're so invested, right, And then that leads us to 320 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 1: what this study, which is in the journal Developmental Psychology 321 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,479 Speaker 1: in two thousand five, was saying about how you know 322 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 1: girls are there's so much more of an intimacy level 323 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: and female friendship than in the friendships of young boys, 324 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: to the point where the interference of a third party 325 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: tends to be a significant source of tension between friends 326 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: and the primary basis for the breakup of friendships. Yeah, 327 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: and researchers usually anticipate jealousy interfering in girl friendships just 328 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,719 Speaker 1: because we have quote deeper, more intimate friendships. And they 329 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: also went on to say, in this study, quote girls 330 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: in general reported higher levels of jealousy surrounding friends. So 331 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: this is something that we're dealing with in our formative years. Um. 332 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: But interesting to that gender difference might also be due 333 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: to a gendered stigma of jealousy being thought of as 334 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: more of a feminine emotion, probably because, like we were 335 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: talking about with the evolutionary psychology of envy, if you 336 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: express envy or jealousy, you're sort of tipping your hand 337 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: a little bit right, signaling weakness. So, for instance, if 338 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: boys are feeling jealous within the confines of these friendships, 339 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: they have a tendency to just say that they're upset 340 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 1: versus they're jealous of something. But Caroline, this is dealing 341 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: with younger girls. What then happens when puberty hits and 342 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: sexiness walks in the room. Oh my god, I feel 343 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: like everybody could probably guess the answer to this. Uh, 344 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: nothing good, nothing good, nothing good happens. Um. I mean, 345 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: it's so interesting. The studies that we read that basically 346 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: threw a sexy lady into the mix of two female 347 00:20:55,080 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: friends showed over and over again that if a sexy 348 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: lady walks in the room and encounters two female friends, 349 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: the minute she walks back out, the two female friends 350 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: are going to be like, am I God, did you 351 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: see her? I bet she's just here to bang the professor. 352 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: Whereas if a woman with like her hair and a 353 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: nod on the top of her head, wearing a T 354 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 1: shirt and pants, you know, if I walk into the room, 355 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: if I walk into the room, they don't think anything 356 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: of it at all. Yeah, yeah, there's no, we're not 357 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 1: We're not bringing sexy back. But this the fascinating thing, though, too, 358 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: was that only until recently, relatively recently, scientists didn't even 359 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: really understand the entire concept of female competition. It was 360 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: assumed to be more of a male thing, obviously relating 361 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: to gendered patterns of aggression and violence and adding a 362 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: little more complexity to this as well. Uh. The New 363 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: York Times was reporting on how female competition used to 364 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: be sort of a giant question mark because past evolutionary 365 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: analysis thought that our ancient poligonus societies just eliminated any 366 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: compulsion for female mate competition because hey, the hottest dudes 367 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: just have multiple lives, no big deal. But more recent 368 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: analysis has opened up that scenario a little bit for 369 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: female competition because they now think, well, women probably would 370 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: have still competed for the best resourced sperm contributor. So 371 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: it's it's all very romantic, it's very egalitarian, it's very progressive. Um, 372 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: but not joking. Female competition has only recently been studied, 373 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: and it is once you throw that sexiness into the 374 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: equation that it does come out, unfortunately, at least according 375 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: to the limited researches out there in the form of 376 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: female to female solt shaming. Yeah, so, researcher Sarah B. 377 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: Hurdie has is researching female competition, and she points out 378 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: that it's only since the nineteen eighties, which is really 379 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: when more and more women started getting into stem fields 380 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: that people turn their attention to studying women's competition and 381 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: and uh, female on female competition and aggression. Um. Of course, 382 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: as we've talked about before, female on female aggression does 383 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: tend to be a little more passive aggressive, a little 384 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: less actually aggressive aggressive or especially physical. I mean we 385 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: have to protect our delicate selves, right, Yeah, we're less 386 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: likelier to to punch each other. Yeah, don't punch me 387 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: in the baby maker, because it's got to be making 388 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: all those babies, all that sperm I acquired with my 389 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: new spear, and not in the face, because how will 390 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: I find the best sperm contributor. Instead, I'm just gonna 391 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: say horrible things about you behind your back, right, because 392 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: that goes back to the whole envy discussion of talking 393 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: about someone behind her back to basically take her down 394 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: brick by brick, behind the scenes, instead of just doing 395 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: it to her face. Yeah, which is really no less damaging, 396 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: arguably even more damaging than punching someone in the you. 397 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: The you, and this is our a according to Dr Hurdie, 398 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: that women limit access by maintaining advantage in the negotiation 399 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: of the resource, the resource being our ability to find 400 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: a decent person to procreate with. Um. But moving on 401 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: from that. Joyce Benison at Emmanuel College has also studied 402 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: female jealousy and competition, and she identified to Psychology Today 403 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: three unique characteristics of jealousy and women. One veiled aggression 404 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: rather than physical confrontation. We've already covered that too. High 405 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: status women are less motivated to invest in other women, 406 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: and women who try to distinguish or promote themselves threaten 407 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: other women and will encounter hostility and enter shine theory 408 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: needing to come into play, and the three social exclusion 409 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: to protect against potential competitors. So I mean we we 410 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: played dirty, but I mean this this supposedly like natural 411 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: drive to be doing all of this definitely follows us 412 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: into our careers and jealousy reflecting gender dynamics in the 413 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: workplace because when you think about it, there are so 414 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: few women as CEOs in the boardroom, in high power positions. 415 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: So hopefully we're not fighting for sperm in the office, 416 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,239 Speaker 1: but we're fighting for very limited positions of power, and 417 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: so that still will involve those more the more veiled aggression, 418 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: maybe the feelings of envy and trying to take someone 419 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: down behind the scenes so that you're still being perceived 420 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: as like, oh, I'm a team player at work. Yeah, 421 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: but I do think one of the most damaging ways 422 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: if you are a woman vying for that limited seat, 423 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 1: I mean stepping on the backs of other women in 424 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: order to get there is I mean, I guess if 425 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: you're out for yourself, okay, but you're not helping other 426 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: women in the process. And and the fact the matter 427 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: is there's some people for which they don't care, and 428 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: they don't care about that at all. Every woman on 429 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: a reality show. I love those montages on YouTube of 430 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: of women going I'm not here to make friends. Yeah, 431 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: because I mean there is I think still this assumption 432 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: that women are going to naturally be competitive with each 433 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: other and be jealous of each other, and shine theory 434 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: does tip it on its head a bit of saying, hey, 435 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: you know, we can be successful, we can also be friendly, 436 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: and we can also maybe buck these perceptions that women 437 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: in positions of leadership and power are aggressive and angry 438 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: and unfriendly. Yeah, because that doesn't help at all either now, 439 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: And neither does the loneliness that comes when you're looking 440 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: at social media for hours on end and some woman 441 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: on social media's posting pictures of her trip to Bali. 442 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: I'm not speaking from person or just some dinner parties 443 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: you weren't invited to, not speaking from personal experience out 444 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: of their caroline. Yeah, social media, I mean we're gonna 445 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: we're gonna mend and social media because women spend a 446 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 1: lot of time on social media and as probably every 447 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: every listener has seen a trend piece on this, there 448 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: have been so many studies now linking Facebook and Instagram 449 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: in particular to feelings of loneliness, lower self worth, and 450 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: jealousy because we're seeing we're seeing things that we don't have. 451 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: I mean, yes, these are images that are curated and 452 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: filtered and cleverly captioned we hope to, you know, make 453 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: your life look as great as possible. But still, but 454 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: it's weird. It's almost like it's almost like the way 455 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: that fake sugar like will never satisfy your brain because 456 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: your brain wants real sugar and so it keeps searching. 457 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: It's it's almost like you're you're in a fake competition 458 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: with other women on social media when you look at 459 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: their amazing pictures of their trip or their dinner or 460 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: their vacation or husband or whoever whatever. Because so envy 461 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: is supposed to spark ambition, right, you see something you 462 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: want and you're like, I've got to figure out a 463 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: way to get that for myself and do do well 464 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: for myself. But the image that people present of themselves 465 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 1: on social media, it's not anywhere close to being real. Yeah, 466 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: you might post pictures of an amazing trip you took, 467 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: but that doesn't cover up like maybe you had a 468 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: bad day, maybe you're not feeling good about yourself. Maybe 469 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: you yourself are insecure, and so it's almost like people 470 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,239 Speaker 1: are envious of something that they don't fully grasp and 471 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: so that like breeds this whole feeling of insecurity and 472 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: instability and envy when really you should just be congratulating 473 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: on your your friend on a good trip and saying, hey, 474 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: how are you doing? Yeah? I mean And when it 475 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: comes to that realness factor on social media and are 476 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: curated images, I would like to highlight that my Twitter 477 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: avatar that is fake blood on my face, not real, ladies. 478 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: You don't need to be envious. Um. And also I 479 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: think that you just came up with something that we 480 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: should call the splendid theory. So yeah, hello, shine theory, meat, 481 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: splendid theory and together what would that make fools gold? 482 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: But before we close out this conversation, we did want 483 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: to take a look at television because we mentioned earlier 484 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: about how media representations of female friendships, particularly in movies 485 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,959 Speaker 1: and television often, you know, follow the assumption that we 486 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: all secretly hate each other and they're all freenemies. And 487 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: there is still a lot of that on TV, just 488 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: look at the Real Housewives franchise and The Bachelor. But 489 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: I think in some ways it has gotten better. We 490 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: do have some examples of uh, female friendships on TV. 491 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: And I'm only focusing on TV just because there's not 492 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: even time to get into film, but there are examples 493 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: of friendships where shine theory is at work, not just 494 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: in a sense of a career, but supporting people through 495 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: life decisions too. And I think that that's something especially 496 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: for me as an adult woman with my friends who 497 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: have now had years and years and years too. It's 498 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: it's not just the career success that can stoke envy, 499 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: but it's also the life success. We're all starting to 500 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,959 Speaker 1: hit the milestones you're starting to get, like engagements and 501 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: marriages and pregnancies and divorce and that, and that plays 502 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: a role in things as well. Yeah, it is refreshing 503 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: to see depictions of female friendship that seemed very genuine. 504 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: I mean, take a show like Girls which wait, don't 505 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,959 Speaker 1: turn off the podcast. I know not everybody is a 506 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: fan but when you have a show like Girls, I 507 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: feel like that's still depicting genuine female friendships and all 508 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: of the messiness that can come along with it. These 509 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: women are being pitted against each other. There's not cattiness 510 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: per se, but there's genuine love and support, just on 511 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: the same token as there is insecurity and sort of 512 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: measuring up against one another. Yeah, and Broad City. Hello, 513 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: Is there a more dedicated duo of female friends on 514 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: prime time? I don't think so, because I think that 515 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: Alanna would would murder for Abby, and she would also 516 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: marry her if she could, if Abbie would have her 517 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: um and then even to a Sex in the City. 518 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: You know, those friendships showed time and again lots of 519 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: support through milestones and successes and even through failures too, 520 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: And I feel like in that way, Sex in the 521 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: City was a healthy model Parks and recreation. Lesley notes 522 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: undying love of Anne right, And I think one of 523 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: my favorites, even though I hate this show now, is 524 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: Grey's Anatomy the friendship between Meredith and Christina, because I 525 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: remember so clearly the episode where Christina said that Meredith 526 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: was her person, because I was like, ah, there it is. 527 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: That's my friendship reflected in these two fictional characters, because 528 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: I feel that way about a couple of ladies too, 529 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: and it's like they're they're my my people, my tribe, 530 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: my my people, who will tell me when I'm full 531 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: of crap, but who will also support me unconditioned only. 532 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: And an older sitcom as well that depicts strong female 533 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: friendships through life events is Girl Friends. As well as 534 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: Awkward Black Girl. You have the Gilmore Girls, arguably, which 535 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: I feel like that's a little bit of a stretch, 536 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: and also Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We've got some strong 537 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: female friendships in there as well, so there's some good 538 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: modeling going on. And I do think that that for 539 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: the TV shows we just mentioned that are on the 540 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: air right now, it's interesting that most of them are 541 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: created by women. Yeah. I mean that's the importance of representation. 542 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: When people talk about why is it important to get 543 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: women in X Y Z field, this is a great example. 544 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: You get more women's perspectives in the TV writer's room, 545 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: and then you get more realistic depictions of actual women. Yeah, 546 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: and I think that those depictions are important. I think 547 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: it is important, especially for girls to see I mean 548 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: not that girls are sitting down and watching Gray's Anatomy. 549 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: Do girls watch Gray's Anatomy? I don't know. I don't know, 550 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: but I think just generally, it's so important for younger 551 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: girls to see healthy models of female friendship because from 552 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: the get go, leased according to studies and according to 553 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: my experience when I was a girl, we invest so 554 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: much in our friends, and our friends means so much 555 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: to us, and when they break our hearts, it's like 556 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: no other heartbreak. And I feel like this follows us 557 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: in Morrison evolves as we get older, and I really 558 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: love most of all Amy Poehler's advice of just don't 559 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: root for other people's failure. You know something's not for you, 560 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: that's fine, good for her, not for me exactly. So 561 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: let's hear from some listeners. When do you think about 562 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: the shine theory? How how has success and competition influenced 563 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: your closer friendships? And do you think that you should 564 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: make with powerful people or is that just kind of networking? 565 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: And guys, we want to hear from you two. I 566 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: know this was lady focused conversation, but we always want 567 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts as well. Mom Stuff at how 568 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: stuffwork dot com is our email address. You can also 569 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: tweet us and mom Stuff podcast and messages on Facebook, 570 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages this year with 571 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: you all right now, Well, I have a letter here 572 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: from Samantha about our Underpens episode. She says, I'm a 573 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: costume designer out in Seattle, and when it comes to 574 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: historical plays, the right undergarments are essential. While I was 575 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,280 Speaker 1: interesting to hear about the political and social feelings on underwear, 576 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: I was saddened that you barely touched on the function 577 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: of these garments. If it weren't for courses, many Victorian 578 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: and Edwardian dresses would look awful since the dresses themselves 579 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: were never made a fabric that could hold structure or form. 580 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: You mentioned that once World War Two was over, we 581 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,720 Speaker 1: go back to constraining undergarments like bullet FROs, hurdles, and petticoats, 582 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: but the shape and design of those dresses wouldn't be 583 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: fully realized because without those bases it would look like 584 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: a totally different dress. Even now, we used banks to 585 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: get the garments we wear to look like they are 586 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: intended to look. I love the podcast and thanks for 587 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: helping me become a better informed feminist keep up the 588 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 1: good work. Well, thank you, Samantha. Thank you for filling 589 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 1: us in on some historical details. And Samantha and some 590 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 1: other listeners have also filled us in on mispronunciation of 591 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: the word chemise, which I woefully misled Caroline into thinking 592 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: it was pronounced camise. So my since serrious apologies. I 593 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: don't know what I thought was. The thought was camis 594 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: always started that way in my head. It was just 595 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: like that Sarah c Anderson comic. Yeah. Well, I know 596 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: have a letter from Sarah about our literacy podcast and 597 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,839 Speaker 1: Colombo and it made me laugh. So here it is. 598 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: She said, love your podcast. I listened to it all 599 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: the time at work. Thank you for all your hard work. 600 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: I was just listening to the Clittereste podcast. And I 601 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: know you were thinking that Columbo discovering the clitterest reminded 602 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: you of Columbus, but I humorously started thinking of Detective 603 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: Columbo played by Peter Falk in the nineteen six eight 604 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: TV show Columbo, which side note I totally watched all 605 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: the time with my parents. I kept inwardly laughing every 606 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: time I thought of his catchphrase just one thing I 607 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:32,240 Speaker 1: don't understand and applying it to the clitterest. Nothing usually 608 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: groundbreaking to actually tell you about the episode other than 609 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: that I enjoyed it and the thought of Columbo the 610 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: Detective was super funny to me. I hope it made 611 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: you laugh too, and it did, Sarah, So thank you 612 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: and thanks everybody else who's written into us. Mom Stuff 613 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: at hou sufforks dot com is our email address and 614 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media as well 615 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this 616 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: one with links to and Friedman's Peace about Shine theory 617 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: so you can read along. Head on over to stuff 618 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: mo I've Never Told You dot com for more on 619 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,240 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff 620 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: Works dot com