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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: tuning in. Casey, can we get a little sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, generically Colonial times music in the background. Perfect,

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Speaker 1: We've got a pitch for you today, folks. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever thought about changing your identity? Have you ever felt

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Speaker 1: that you should break free of the bonds of your

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Speaker 1: previous life and become someone else entirely? That's a question

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Speaker 1: we're addressing today. I'm Ben, my co host Noel is

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Speaker 1: off on adventures. However, we have a very special episode

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Speaker 1: for you today with a very special guest. Are returning

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Speaker 1: friend of the show. Thanks for classing up the place

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Speaker 1: yet again, Christopher haci Otis. Hey, thanks for having me. Guys.

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Speaker 1: I I can't promise I can fill Noel's chair, um,

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Speaker 1: but I will do my darnist. I am incredibly excited

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Speaker 1: about this. We didn't we We've teased your return for

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Speaker 1: some time over the over the previous accretion set expectations.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very high. You know, we asked, we asked

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Speaker 1: people to write in immediately as soon as they heard

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Speaker 1: your voice, but we didn't tell We didn't tell everyone

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Speaker 1: that you would be coming on for this and maybe

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Speaker 1: some other episodes in the future, but we're quite excited

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Speaker 1: to have you. Thank you so much. I know you've

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Speaker 1: been traveling a lot recently, right, Yeah, We've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of really great new shows in the works for

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Speaker 1: the Heart Podcast Network. So listeners, if you dig ridiculous history,

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Speaker 1: keep your eyes on your screens and your ears on.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what, Ben, you're you're better at promoting

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Speaker 1: than I am. What do you say? Ears to the wind?

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Speaker 1: Keep your ears to the wind of the podcast realm.

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Speaker 1: There you go. Oh, keep your eyes peeled, your ears

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Speaker 1: to the ground right right, and fingertips at the mercy

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Speaker 1: of your soul. There we go. Basically, I just want

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Speaker 1: everyone listening to scroll through their iPhones or their Samsungs

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Speaker 1: or what have you, and subscribe to whatever strikes your fancy.

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Speaker 1: This is just a long, ridiculous way of saying, yes, Ben,

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Speaker 1: thank you for having me on. I have been up

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Speaker 1: to a lot lately. We're putting together a great slate

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Speaker 1: of new shows coming to the network, all centered around

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Speaker 1: food and travel and stories of humanity and how all

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Speaker 1: those things relate to our lives. Um, I will have

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Speaker 1: a lot more information for you and the listeners of

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History, probably in the next month or two, about

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Speaker 1: some really really great shows that they can watch out

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Speaker 1: for um and hopefully subscribe to and really really dig

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Speaker 1: So in the meantime, I've just got, you know, time

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Speaker 1: to sit here in a booth with you, which makes

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Speaker 1: me super joyful. Oh thank you. Also, of course, we

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Speaker 1: are not diving into Ridiculous History alone. We are joined

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Speaker 1: as always with our super producer, Casey Pegram give it

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Speaker 1: up for him, folks, Casey, I don't know why I

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Speaker 1: stopped like you are also going to put it in

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Speaker 1: a plause que. But Christopher has just given us a delightful, tantalizing,

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Speaker 1: I would say, exclusive teaser, because this is the first

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Speaker 1: time we've talked about some of these projects on air. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: on this show. Yeah, that's right, and so we'll say

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Speaker 1: no more. Uh, you pay for the whole seat, you

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Speaker 1: only need the edge. Check back in in a month

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Speaker 1: or so and we may have we may have some

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Speaker 1: new news for you. However, Christopher, you noticed at the

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Speaker 1: very top of the show we set up the concept

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Speaker 1: of changing one's identity. Have you ever have you ever

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Speaker 1: thought about this? I remember when I was in college,

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Speaker 1: I was at a rock and roll club and someone

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Speaker 1: had taped on the wall of one of the restrooms,

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Speaker 1: you know, over all the terrible band stickers and the

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Speaker 1: graffiti and the cigarette burns and the scars scratched into

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Speaker 1: the wall, someone had taped something that said, reinvent yourself,

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Speaker 1: start a new life. And it was basically not quite

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Speaker 1: an anarchist cookbook, but directions on how to access a

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Speaker 1: manifesto on how to essentially fake your own death and

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Speaker 1: season new identity. And there was some sort of Narro

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Speaker 1: dou Well who is going around spreading these pamphlets around

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Speaker 1: rock and roll clubs in the late nineties and early

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Speaker 1: two thousand's. Um. So, I don't know how many how

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Speaker 1: many people out there are living under assumed identities. You know,

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Speaker 1: we can't all be Don draper Um. But if there

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Speaker 1: is anywhere that's prime for reinvention and developing a new

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Speaker 1: persona and and reinventing yourself, I mean, I think the

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Speaker 1: United States of America is like, that's one of the

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Speaker 1: hot beds for it, right, That's one of the things

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Speaker 1: that we do. We burst forth from the shackles of

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Speaker 1: our our past. We reinvent ourselves. We set aside our

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Speaker 1: family histories, we invent new family histories. We just present

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Speaker 1: ourselves as we hope to be. And a lot of

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Speaker 1: times people just kind of buy it. That's true, that's

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Speaker 1: so true. The word of the day I'll introduce here

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Speaker 1: is a pseudo side. That's the technical term for faking

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Speaker 1: one's death or attempting to do so. Uh. And today's

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Speaker 1: episode hinges on Yeah, just as you said it, Man,

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Speaker 1: hinges on a fundamentally American idea. We have a somewhat

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Speaker 1: romanticized or idealized concept of this, of this purposeful reinvention,

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Speaker 1: this resurrection, rebirth by design, but we don't often talk

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Speaker 1: about the real life cases, uh, you know, in which

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Speaker 1: these sorts of tropes occur. And today's story is about

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Speaker 1: a person who did just that, who reinvented herself. And

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Speaker 1: that's the sort of thing that normally is it's praised

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Speaker 1: right to come from humble beginnings to set yourself up

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Speaker 1: to a life that's that's grander than anything you could

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Speaker 1: have imagined or that your parents could have set out

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Speaker 1: for you. Normally, it's a good thing. Is that the

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Speaker 1: case here? Well, let's let's dig into it. How about that.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's let's dig into it, and then maybe at

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Speaker 1: the end you and I can make the call, and

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Speaker 1: fellow listeners please chime in and let us know what

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Speaker 1: your take is after you hear the entirety of the story,

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Speaker 1: because it's important to hear the entirety of this particular tale.

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Speaker 1: Our story today begins with a woman named Sarah Wilson.

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Speaker 1: She was born in a Stafford village in seventeen fifty four,

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Speaker 1: and she was relatively well off, not not super destitute,

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Speaker 1: because her father was a professional and he's a bailiff. However,

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Speaker 1: they did have money problems, and the money problems were

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Speaker 1: such that at the age of sixteen, Sarah is sent

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Speaker 1: away from home and she is sent to London to

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Speaker 1: look for employment. This was not terribly uncommon during this time. No,

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Speaker 1: it's not. She came from humble beginnings and you know

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Speaker 1: it's this West Midlands region of England, it's not super industrialized.

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Speaker 1: She's looking for more opportunity, like many people do. She

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Speaker 1: heads to the big city. There are some suggestions maybe

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Speaker 1: she wasn't just looking for money. Maybe she was off

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Speaker 1: to seek her own ideas of fortune and fame and

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Speaker 1: kind of build a name for herself, whatever that might mean.

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Speaker 1: But she does head to London and within a few

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Speaker 1: weeks she finds work. She's working as a made for

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Speaker 1: a woman named Caroline Vernon. And Caroline Vernon was a

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Speaker 1: lady in waiting for Queen Charlotte, now Queen Charlotte, Queen

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Speaker 1: of England, but born in Germany. Spoke German German accent

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Speaker 1: when she's speaking English. Uh. You know, this is the

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Speaker 1: sort of thing where, looking back three four or five

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Speaker 1: hundred years from especially the vantage point of the United States,

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Speaker 1: where royalty is a bit of a novelty, we don't

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Speaker 1: realize how little national borders and family lineage criss crossed,

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Speaker 1: and one may or may not have informed the other.

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Speaker 1: So you have German nationals who are actually the King

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Speaker 1: of England. You have people from Austria ruling Greece. You

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Speaker 1: have the mix of whatever blend of Austro Hungarian Habsburg

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Speaker 1: that situation ruling over bits and pieces of Europe. Um.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's it's sort of like a dual layer

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Speaker 1: in Europe. And it's I always like to think that

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Speaker 1: the movies just get it wrong because everyone's speaking with

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Speaker 1: the same accent, wether it's an accurate accent or not,

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Speaker 1: it's generally somewhat uniform, whereas um, that's maybe not the

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Speaker 1: case then. But I'm I've fallen down a rabbit hole

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Speaker 1: of just talking about historical specificity. I think it's a

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Speaker 1: great point, though, and you've picked the right show to

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Speaker 1: do this on because it may be difficult for many

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Speaker 1: of us in twenty nine and these our modern days.

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Speaker 1: Two understand that it was normal for the rulers of

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Speaker 1: a country to be completely foreign in most what we

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Speaker 1: would consider completely foreign in today's terms, uh, and being

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Speaker 1: quote unquote qualified for their position entirely due to their ancestry.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's what happens. There's a feedback loop around

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Speaker 1: this time, uh and the centuries preceding it, wherein you know,

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Speaker 1: if you are a member of a powerful family, you

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Speaker 1: want your children to only marry members of other powerful families,

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Speaker 1: and so things get mixed. I'm not making an in

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Speaker 1: breeding joke. I'm just saying that's how the thrones end

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Speaker 1: up being collected and consolidated and passed around. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: absolutely true. And I will say that that this discussion

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Speaker 1: of languages and accents does come into play a little

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Speaker 1: later on in Sarah Wilson's story. Yes, nice foreshadowing. Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: So Sarah quickly ingratiates herself. She is a a people person,

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Speaker 1: a slick talker. At this point she is playing the

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Speaker 1: role of the perfect maid as far as Lady in

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Speaker 1: Waiting Caroline Vernon is concerned. Yeah, and she's working at

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Speaker 1: the Queen's House, which if you or I were to

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Speaker 1: go to London, or any of the listeners wanted to

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Speaker 1: go to London and go check out the Queen's House,

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Speaker 1: you can't find it because what's now there is bucking

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Speaker 1: In Palace, a little larger, a little more grand, but

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Speaker 1: that original Queen's House. But but that's the region of

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Speaker 1: London we're talking about. It's still you know, that the

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Speaker 1: seat of royal power, right, quite prestigious. Yes, And at

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Speaker 1: the Queen's House, whereas you said, Christopher, Buckingham Palace now stands.

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Speaker 1: Sarah frequently saw the actual Queen, the wife of King

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Speaker 1: George the Third, and she quickly, in addition to ingratiating

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Speaker 1: herself with the upper crust of this of this community,

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Speaker 1: she also familiarize herself intimately with the scuttle but the gossip,

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Speaker 1: the things that only the maids and the butlers and

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Speaker 1: what Downton Abbey would call the downstairs people were aware of.

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Speaker 1: And this got to her. You know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: because we know, we know how human psychology works has

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Speaker 1: not changed for many thousands of years. Happiness is often

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Speaker 1: defining comparative terms. So she is, she's smart, she's quick witted.

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Speaker 1: She has escaped her small town and done more than

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Speaker 1: many people in her town would have done. But then

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Speaker 1: she looks around and she sees you of this opulence

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Speaker 1: and these lives of leisure, and she says, I'm paraphrasing here,

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Speaker 1: Why not me Where they got that? I ain't got

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Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, I want to get me some of that. Right.

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Speaker 1: That's that's a quote exactly. I think that was on

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Speaker 1: some plaque somewhere in some dusty tone. Um. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the thing, says Sarah Wilson. Being around royalty, knowing royalty,

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Speaker 1: knowing the comings and goings of royalty. That wasn't enough

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Speaker 1: for her. She wanted to get a piece of the action,

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Speaker 1: have a slice for herself, carve out a little nook

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Speaker 1: in that world. Or maybe she just wanted the things

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Speaker 1: that she knew she would never ever have on her own.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, this is such a stratified culture at

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Speaker 1: the time. It still is in many ways. But when

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Speaker 1: you come from completely humble backgrounds and you are spending

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Speaker 1: your day around someone who is wearing let's say, a

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Speaker 1: ring or a crown, or today a pair of sneakers,

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Speaker 1: or you know, you drive a car that is essentially

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Speaker 1: worth what your family could make in a decade, and

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Speaker 1: this is just a trinket to this person. That wealth

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Speaker 1: imbalance creates tension, and most people in the world can

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Speaker 1: handle that. Some people can't. And Sarah Wilson was one

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Speaker 1: of those people. So there was a night when she

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Speaker 1: was by herself in the in the Queen's room, she

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Speaker 1: snuck into a closet, breaks into this cabinet, and she

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Speaker 1: takes some jewelry, some dresses, a ring, and a little

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Speaker 1: miniature portrait of Queen Charlotte. So it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we don't have an image of what it looks like,

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Speaker 1: but I imagine it's one of those little sort of

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Speaker 1: um cameo portraits and maybe a little silhouette um just

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Speaker 1: something that would be a keepsake, something that a family

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Speaker 1: member of Queen Charlotte would keep and would uh you know,

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Speaker 1: would refer to lovingly remember their relative. So she takes

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Speaker 1: all these things for herself. Yeah, and she thinks it's

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Speaker 1: no big deal. One's going to find out for Pete's sake.

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Speaker 1: This is the Queen of England, right, She's got countless dresses,

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Speaker 1: countless rings. But the thing is they were not countless.

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Speaker 1: They were they were counted, accounted frequently. As is the

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Speaker 1: case with sometimes people of immense wealth, they also are

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Speaker 1: immensely focused on the things that make them wealthy. And

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Speaker 1: so Queen Charlotte was no different. She kept fastidious inventory

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Speaker 1: of her inventory. She knew what she had, and she

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Speaker 1: knew when something was missing. So very very very soon

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Speaker 1: after Sarah took these items, they're noticed missing. So the

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Speaker 1: Queen says, all right, we don't know who did this.

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Speaker 1: I need someone to keep an eye on. I thought

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Speaker 1: that was quite clever too. Yeah, I mean, you don't

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Speaker 1: want to just go off and start accusing people willy nilly.

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Speaker 1: That might fly with some royals. Not Queen Charlotte. Not

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Speaker 1: Queen Charlotte. No, she said, up a surveillance operation and

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Speaker 1: think about how many servants must exist in a royal household,

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Speaker 1: so there's clearly going to be um several factions, and

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Speaker 1: there's also going to be some servants that she trust

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Speaker 1: completely and then some that are you know, still a

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Speaker 1: little green, and then some that she doesn't really interact with.

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Speaker 1: So we can only imagine that she goes to one

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Speaker 1: of the servants she legitimately trust someone, someone or some

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Speaker 1: people with whom she spent years and years, right, and

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Speaker 1: she asked these people to watch not just the room,

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Speaker 1: but this particular closet. And this is where Sarah Wilson

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Speaker 1: makes her first error. Yeah, I mean the criminal returning

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Speaker 1: to the scene of the crime. It's a trope in

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Speaker 1: crime fiction, but that's because it happens. That's human nature.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe your prime criminal would go for the

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Speaker 1: big score and then never touched that room again, never

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Speaker 1: go back. But Sarah was not a professional criminal. She

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Speaker 1: knew she got away with something once, so she went

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Speaker 1: back to the well again, or in this case, the cabinet. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but this time you know that that law and order

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Speaker 1: style stake out whatever was going on. It worked, and

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Speaker 1: Sarah Wilson was caught in the act of trying to

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Speaker 1: rob Queen Charlotte once again. So this is very very

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Speaker 1: very bad news. The way the laws work at the time,

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Speaker 1: Sarah Wilson is charged with theft and violation of the

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Speaker 1: royal privacy. And that's serious. That is serious. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: is seriously how serious, more so than more so than theft,

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Speaker 1: violation of the royal privacy carries with it the death sentences. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so she receives the death sentence, and her original employer,

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Speaker 1: Lady in Waiting Vernon, has not given up on her.

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Speaker 1: That's Caroline Vernon, right, Yes, that is Lady Carrot, Lady

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Speaker 1: in waiting, Caroline Vernon, and Caroline takes it upon herself

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Speaker 1: to personally plead to Queen Charlotte please spare Sarah. She's

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Speaker 1: made a mistake, but she maybe is a good girl.

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Speaker 1: She comes from a good background. She's I like her,

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Speaker 1: and she's so young, right, she's what how sixteen seventeen

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Speaker 1: at this age, So her please work somewhat and her punishment,

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Speaker 1: the death sentence is commuted to what they called transportation.

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Speaker 1: That sounds nice, it does, it does. So she was

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Speaker 1: just on subways. Yeah, so where they transport her. They

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Speaker 1: transported her transportation. We should say it was didn't mean

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Speaker 1: the same thing it means today. Transportation was forcible exile.

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Speaker 1: It's deportation. Gott be the closest analog we have today, right,

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Speaker 1: So in July of seventeen seventy one, she is placed

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Speaker 1: on a prison ship and sent to Baltimore, Maryland. It's

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Speaker 1: a long transportation, she's a long ride. It is long.

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Speaker 1: You wouldn't want to put the Uber bill for that. However,

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Speaker 1: things get worse because when she arrives in the what

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Speaker 1: would become the United States. So this is one who

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Speaker 1: were five years before everything kind of comes together still

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Speaker 1: just colonies colonies, yep. And she is not put in prison,

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Speaker 1: she has not given um some sort of state level

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Speaker 1: employment or colonial level employment. She is put up for

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Speaker 1: auction and sold as a slave. So she can't just

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Speaker 1: kind of do her own thing in the United States

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Speaker 1: or in what would become the United States. She's just

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Speaker 1: in Maryland, transported there against her will, although maybe willingly

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Speaker 1: because it's otherwise. The other option is to be put

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Speaker 1: to death. But then she's just in servitude. Yeah, that's that.

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Speaker 1: It's looking grim before Sarah. At this point, she is

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Speaker 1: sold to a fellow named w Duval. He is a

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Speaker 1: planter from Bush Creek, Frederick County. Do you know what

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Speaker 1: what she was doing for Mr Duval? I have not

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Speaker 1: seen too much detail about that. That makes sense that

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Speaker 1: because I think she she wasn't with him for long, right, right, right?

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Speaker 1: She wasn't with him for long. And at this case,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's an unpleasant thing to imagine, but

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Speaker 1: physical abuse was prevalent with people who were enslaved in

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Speaker 1: this manner slavery in general. So while we do not

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Speaker 1: have confirmed records of what happened during her time there,

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Speaker 1: we know that she did not spend very long there

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Speaker 1: at all. As you said, Christopher, she sought to improve

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Speaker 1: her situation almost immediately, right she escapes to Virginia lickety split,

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Speaker 1: and she doesn't just go with the clothes on her back.

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Speaker 1: This is the weirdest part of this. Yeah, I this

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Speaker 1: this is the sort of thing where our lack of

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Speaker 1: a time machine is just really a bummer, because I

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Speaker 1: I want to know the details of how this exactly happened.

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Speaker 1: When she escapes, she still has in her possession, which

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Speaker 1: means she brought over with her on her transportation from Britain.

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Speaker 1: She still had one of the rings she stole. She

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Speaker 1: still had some dresses, and she still had that miniature

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Speaker 1: portrait of Queen Charlotte, which how how how do you

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Speaker 1: have that? I don't I don't know. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: like to think that systems of power are in place

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Speaker 1: and everyone does everything perfectly, but as anyone who has

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Speaker 1: ever dealt with let's say, um, the police, or the

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Speaker 1: local county clerk or the town collector. Who. Yeah, sometimes

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Speaker 1: people who are supposed to be doing their jobs, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, they check the wrong box, they forget a comma,

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Speaker 1: and then when you go back to renew, they say, wait,

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Speaker 1: you're not even in our system. And you say, but

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Speaker 1: I was in your system. I had a hyphen in

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Speaker 1: my name and you took it out and they don't

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Speaker 1: know what you're talking king about. And then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden you say, I had a thing of Queen

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Speaker 1: Charlotte and where is her? And no, I promised this

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Speaker 1: dress is mine. And I think that's probably how it happened.

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Speaker 1: And the romantic in me, you know, the fan of

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Speaker 1: fiction at least, has this this cinematic moment stuck in

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Speaker 1: my head, which almost certainly didn't happen. Wherein the queen says,

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Speaker 1: and take these garments with you. Take them. Hence they

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Speaker 1: are soiled. You know they've been touched by the poor

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Speaker 1: if yes, they've been touched by the boar, which should

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Speaker 1: also be a crime. So at this point, though, we

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Speaker 1: although we're gonna be with her for the rest of

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Speaker 1: this story, we kind of say goodbye to Sarah Wilson.

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Speaker 1: We do. We say goodbye to Sarah Wilson, and we

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Speaker 1: say hello to Princess Susannah Caroline Matilda, sister of Queen Charlotte,

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Speaker 1: forced into exile in the colonies following a very enigmatic

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Speaker 1: family scandal. You don't want to talk about it's it's

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Speaker 1: too hard, it's impolite. Now, it's it's royalty. It's not

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Speaker 1: the sort of thing you bring up with a polite

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Speaker 1: dinner conversation in Virginia when you are a princess, when

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Speaker 1: you are a princess. And also it would be violating

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Speaker 1: the privacy of the royal family, and who would want

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Speaker 1: to do that. That's a crime that terrible. So this

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Speaker 1: is this is strange. First off, the hutsball alone, you know,

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Speaker 1: congratulations to Princess Susannah Caroline Matilda. This is the kind

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Speaker 1: of con that is difficult to pull off. However, she

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Speaker 1: has several powerful things working to her advantage. First, as

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Speaker 1: you mentioned, Christopher, she has all this stuff. Probably the

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Speaker 1: most powerful or most impactful of the material possession she

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Speaker 1: has for her new identity will be that miniature portrait

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Speaker 1: because of the sentimental value you mentioned earlier. But also,

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Speaker 1: and equally as a important here, she has intimate knowledge

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Speaker 1: of life in the royal court. Yeah, she's on the

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Speaker 1: other side of an ocean, but she can still talk

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Speaker 1: to people about the goings on at the Queen's house,

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Speaker 1: who's speaking with whom, and who's falling out with whom,

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Speaker 1: and how things are going upstairs and downstairs, and you

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Speaker 1: know she's she's presenting herself as Susannah Caroline Matilda, which

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Speaker 1: I should also add of Mecklenburg Strelitz. Oh yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: very important. Yeah. The Mecklenburg Strelitz is a a Northern

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Speaker 1: German dynasty sort of who you know, Queen Charlotte was

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Speaker 1: part of that family and they've had um their bloodline

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Speaker 1: influencing royalty throughout Europe. But as the former Sarah Wilson

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Speaker 1: is presenting herself as as Susannah Caroline Matilda Princess. You know,

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Speaker 1: she she really harnesses, I think a bit of nostalgia

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Speaker 1: for what's going on back to because again, a lot

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Speaker 1: of the people living in the United States or what

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Speaker 1: would become the United States still think of themselves as

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Speaker 1: British subjects, as as you know, not as American citizens.

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Speaker 1: To them, the stories of the Queen, stories of the King,

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Speaker 1: stories of what's happening in London, those to them are

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Speaker 1: stories from home. And so there is that nostalgia and

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Speaker 1: that that yearning. And apparently Princess Susannah really had an

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Speaker 1: easier in with with some of the older generation in Virginia,

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Speaker 1: the ones who still thought of themselves as British, as English,

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Speaker 1: and you know, she could tell them what was going

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Speaker 1: on and kind of let them relive there and maybe

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Speaker 1: the it's been decades since they were back home. And

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Speaker 1: there's also this there's also this interesting mechanism that could

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Speaker 1: occur whenever you're working with nostalgia, which is she could

390
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Speaker 1: mention a name or a title that these people, especially

391
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Speaker 1: the Old Guard, would have been familiar with, and then

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Speaker 1: let then fill in the blame based on the scant

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Speaker 1: information she actually had. And when she does that, they

394
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Speaker 1: would feel that they were learning something new, but just

395
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Speaker 1: as importantly, they would feel that they were displaying their knowledge,

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Speaker 1: and therefore they were still people with their what do

397
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Speaker 1: we say, with their ear to the wind, their eyes peeled,

398
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Speaker 1: their tone nails to the grindstone something that, yes, their

399
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 1: their fingers and the toneails on the pulse, so they

400
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Speaker 1: would still feel relevant. Having this knowledge, we can also,

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Speaker 1: I think reasonably assume that even for the people who

402
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Speaker 1: were not the older generation, there was tremendous social cash

403
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Speaker 1: to be had in hosting not just a member of

404
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Speaker 1: English aristocracy, but uh, the sibling of the queen and

405
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Speaker 1: you know already again seventeen seventy one, seventeen seventy two,

406
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Speaker 1: as you said, just a few years out from the

407
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Speaker 1: revolutionary war as we call it in this country. And

408
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: this also plays into displays of loyalism. Well that's the thing. So,

409
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Speaker 1: you know, Princess Susannah is telling people she's been sent

410
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Speaker 1: to the colonies because of some falling out back home.

411
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Speaker 1: She can't get into the details, but she will soon

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Speaker 1: be restored to her rightful position back home, and that's

413
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Speaker 1: you know. So she's at these dinner parties, at these salons,

414
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Speaker 1: at these social events, mingling, whining and dining, and so

415
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Speaker 1: people are eager to really buy into the story because

416
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Speaker 1: if she's telling the truth, even if there's doubt in

417
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: their minds, if she's telling the truth, they are now

418
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Speaker 1: socially connected to a princess. So if she's restored to power,

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Speaker 1: Let's say they need a favor. Let's say they have

420
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Speaker 1: a son who needs a high paying position at a company.

421
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Speaker 1: Let's say they need some land grants. Let's say they

422
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Speaker 1: need to uh gosh, I don't know, he's an army

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Speaker 1: for whatever they want to do, whatever that might be.

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Speaker 1: You know, old rich people, they got things armies can do.

425
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: That is absolutely true. There is a third advantage that this, uh,

426
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: this part of American or colonial society sees, and that's

427
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: you know, I can pay you, princess, since we are

428
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: such very good friends. The typical let's call it an

429
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: administrative fee, not a bribe, but the typical administrative fee

430
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: that would be expected in order to have myself or

431
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: relation of mine, uh granted a position maybe on the court,

432
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: may be associated with it, uh somehow, with some government

433
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: oregan or body. As soon as you return, and we

434
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 1: know that will be soon. So they saw this as

435
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: an investment in many ways. They were they they were

436
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: actually giving This is where the con part comes in.

437
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: They were actually giving Prince Susannah currency. They were they

438
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 1: were giving her cash money, money. Yes, they speaks just

439
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: as strongly three years ago as it does today. Um,

440
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: but also gifts. Uh. You know, I imagine places to stay,

441
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: access to carriages, you know, a nice a nice bedroom

442
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: for a week, or wardrobe, all that stuff. Um. Here

443
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 1: have a horse, Yeah, why not? We've all been in

444
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: that situation. Here do you look? Take this horse, this

445
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: one for me, which not even a princess, whichever one

446
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: you want. Then you make me feel like one Christopher

447
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: taking Christopher. I learned it all from Casey Pegrob. But

448
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: you know what, the these sorts of Shenanigans are increasingly

449
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: difficult to pull off over time over time. And so

450
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: she went all over the colonies. This wasn't just Virginia,

451
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: this wasn't just Maryland. She was in Georgia, she was

452
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: in the Carolina. She met the governor of North Carolina.

453
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: I mean, this is like high level, high level stuff.

454
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: She has access. But people have questions, that's right, and

455
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: they want to be very careful with the manner in

456
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: which they pose these questions to someone like Princess Susannah

457
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: Carolina Matilda, sister to the queen family of Macklenburg. Strelits

458
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: nailed it. Not only but she had a couple other

459
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: aliases too. She also went by the Marquiones de Waldegrave.

460
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: She was also known as the Princess of Cronenberg. No

461
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: association with the director that we know of, that we

462
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: know of, Yes, it's very fair. Yeah. She would use

463
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: these names on different occasions, and she would, as you said,

464
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: travel widely. She was meeting tremendously influential people, and folks

465
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: were starting to ask questions because in these circles there

466
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: would be people who speak German. Yeah. And if she

467
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: was supposedly from Germany, raised in Germany, yeah, Um, how

468
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: come you don't speak German? Right she refused to perhaps

469
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: because of the quarrel, yeah, or she was in the

470
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: new in the new world, speaking a new language. Um.

471
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: But even then she spoke perfect English, flawless English. You

472
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: know why because she was English. Oh yeah, that's rule Kaiser.

473
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: So's a moment for me. But yeah, people people were saying,

474
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: last weird because I have been speaking English for decades

475
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: and decades and decades. I grew up speaking German and

476
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: I still have a little bit of an accent, you

477
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: know what I mean? So why is she flawless with it?

478
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: And then there was another question that seems very obvious

479
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: to us in retrospect. That's it's the one where everyone thinks,

480
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: wait a minute, does Queen Charlotte have a sister? Right?

481
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: Why haven't I heard of her? Maybe maybe she's able

482
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: to turn it around and and really play on people's insecurities.

483
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: And so maybe I wasn't important enough to know about

484
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: the Queen's sister. Yeah, Or maybe you're not. Yeah, maybe

485
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: you're not as plugged in as you want other people,

486
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: let this dinner party to believe. And so people probably

487
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: for some time that strategy is effective in people are

488
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: reticent to voice their concerns because they don't want to

489
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: seem to be the odd personality. Might I also suggest that, um,

490
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: maybe men act a little dumb in the presence of

491
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: someone who might be a princess. I think that is

492
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: an excellent suggestion, having not, to my knowledge at this

493
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: point in life, interacted with a princess. I I can't

494
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: speak from experience, but I feel like that is. I

495
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: feel like that is unfortunately a very astute observation. Men

496
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: can be dumb no way. So you're right though, that's

497
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: a that's a good point. That's one that a lot

498
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: of historians don't talk about. Well, it's it's not necessarily

499
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: brought up. It's not like all these people who are

500
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: giving her gifts are described as as suitors particularly, but

501
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: knowing men, knowing that sort of patriarchal society that was

502
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: in place at the time, I have to imagine that

503
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: some of these people who are wealthy landowners in the

504
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: colonies meeting a single young princess applying her with gifts,

505
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: might have some motives of marrying into royalty or other motives. Yeah. Absolutely,

506
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,239
Speaker 1: And and men will do dumb things, yes, when they

507
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: have those motives. Absolutely. I mean, I would say people

508
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: in general. But in this situation, it's only fair to

509
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: note that that trend toward thickheadedness is is probably accelerated

510
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: in men. But the scam didn't hold. The scam did

511
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: not hold because speaking of men, we have to reintroduce

512
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: a character that briefly appeared earlier in the tale of Mr.

513
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: W Duval, who it turns out is not happy about

514
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: Sarah Wilson as he knew her, and maybe not that

515
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: dumb of a man, because eventually, after a couple of

516
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: years passed, he hears a description of this princess. He

517
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: hears talk and he probably has oh that wow, a

518
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: princess in the colonies. That's interesting. What does she look like?

519
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: And they say this is what she looks like? And

520
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: he says, I know someone who looks like that, Yes,

521
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: and it's Sarah Wilson. And he has been trying to

522
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: find this the one that got away. Literally, so it

523
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: is autumn of seventeen seventy three. Remember she's been on

524
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: the runs since seventeen seventy one ish, uh, And and

525
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: he's he's been looking for her, actually since seventeen seventy one.

526
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: I have I have here in front of me from

527
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: the Pennsylvania Gazette, published on October eleven, seventeen seventy one,

528
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: advertisement for a runaway slave. And uh, this is what

529
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: William Daval wrote in the newspaper back in seventeen seventy one.

530
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: It took out an ad run away from the subscriber

531
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: a convict servant maid named Sarah Wilson, but has changed

532
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: name to Lady Susannah Carolina Matilda, which has made the

533
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: public believe that she was his Majesty's sister. And here's

534
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: where we get into the realized and what she looked like.

535
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: She has a blemish in her right eye, black rolled hair,

536
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: stoops in the shoulders, makes a common practice of writing,

537
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: and marked her clothes with a crown and a bee.

538
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: Whosoever secures the said servant woman or takes her home,

539
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: shall receive five pistols besides all costs and charges. So

540
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: if you find Sarah Wilson, all your expenses are paid

541
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: when you get five pistols. What a deal, five pistols.

542
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: And I should say I'm going to applaud myself for

543
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: reading that, because this is an old timey advertisement from

544
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: an old timey newspaper. And it's got those medial s

545
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: s which are such a pain. They look like an

546
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: f they do look like that's without the crossbar um.

547
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: They go all the way back to old English um.

548
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: And I'm glad that they're gone now, you know, the

549
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, movable type. We don't need all

550
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 1: those weird looking says that make everything sound like an

551
00:34:54,440 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: act of Congress's Yes, Yeah, it's true. Those are are paid.

552
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: And I applaud your recital there, Christopher, I applaud Casey

553
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: for cutting out all of my flubs. Love. Well, that's

554
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: the thing. You use a curvy S at the end,

555
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: but not at the beginning. So if it looks like

556
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: the word flub is flawed, but the word flubs would

557
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: to us look like flaps. And we can only hope

558
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: that old man Willie d was going through the same

559
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: process as he was writing this advertisement. So um, I

560
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: really really hope at some point there's some sort of

561
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: merchandise out there that people can have a bumper sticker

562
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: or a little a little pin or some just gaudy

563
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: T shirt they can wear that says, you know, I

564
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 1: am a proud, ridiculous hiftorian. That's great, Casey, do you

565
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: like that one? I love that Ideatorians. Yeah, medials for everyone,

566
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: Casey on the case. We'll put it to a vote

567
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: to let us know what you think about these. What

568
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 1: are they called medial? A medial? Yeah, it's it's also

569
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: known as a long S because the short S is

570
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: the short, round one or curvy or you know, just

571
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: an S. A as we would say, I like the

572
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: I like the depths of resentment that are that are

573
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: emanating across the table. You didn't have to read this,

574
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: so I might we do have another bit of old

575
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: timing newspaper right here. I may pass it to you

576
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: and uh and put you to the teft. We've created

577
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: a monster, but it's monsters to know, Monthter, Monthter. That's

578
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: fun to say. Actually should get back on track. So

579
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: they're on the hunt. Yeah, the word is out. And

580
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: in addition to publicizing this advertisement and appeal in offering

581
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: this reward, he sends he being uh, Willie sends one

582
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: of his employees, a man named Michael Dalton, to retrieve Sarah.

583
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 1: Alton has uh, you know, he has a certain set

584
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: of skills Liam Neeson style. We can only assume because

585
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: he does eventually track the princess down to a plantation

586
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: in Charleston right after she left. So he is hot

587
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: on her wake, hot on her trail. And then he

588
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: doesn't give up. He follows the clues Carmen San Diego style,

589
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: and he finds her to neighboring plantation. He captures her.

590
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: He takes her back to that estate in Bush Creek,

591
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: Frederick County, and that's in Virginia, yes, Yeah, that's in Virginia.

592
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: Is that the end of the story. She just gets

593
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: captured and she goes right back into servitude. Yeah, Sometimes

594
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: things just and I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I mean, right, well,

595
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: you still have to take some time to name the

596
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: pony before before you ride it out, and I would

597
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: I would advise something heavy on the FS and theses.

598
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: But this is not the end of the story, is it, Christopher.

599
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: You know it's not. There's there's more scamming ahead, as

600
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: as may not be so surprising with miss Sarah Wilson.

601
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: So Sarah is on the plantation, she's working at this point.

602
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: It's s though, but Devall is not at home because

603
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: he has left the plantation to fight in the militia

604
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: for the American War of Independence, yes, which we now

605
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: know as the Revolutionary War. And while he is gone,

606
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 1: a very very strange coincidence scurs. This is the kind

607
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: of thing you can't write in fiction because no one

608
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: will believe you. Yeah, it seems like this seems like

609
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: a really unsatisfying end to things because it's just so improbable.

610
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: But according to the historical record, this is what happened

611
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: another either enslaved person or servant girl also by the

612
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: name of Sarah Wilson, crosses paths with Sarah Wilson. That

613
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: you and I and the listeners now, and this is

614
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: very vague. We want to want to let all of

615
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: our fellow listeners know, we are very well aware that

616
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: this is incredibly vague. Somehow our Sarah Wilson, the former princess,

617
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: is able to switch I guess, bodies or make make

618
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: people confuse the new Sarah Wilson for her. And then

619
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: during this confusion, while her owner is away, while this

620
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: creep the vall Is way, she escapes and this time

621
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: she heads north. Yeah, the southward direction did not work

622
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: out so well for her in the past when she

623
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: was a princess. So she splits. She goes north. She

624
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: leaves Sarah Wilson the second in place of Sarah Wilson.

625
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: The first too bad for Sarah Wilson. The second. I guess.

626
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: We think this is the end of her story, although

627
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: maybe she was already going to be on that plantation anyway.

628
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: And uh, Sarah Juan was like, oh, oh no, that's

629
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 1: Sarah Wilson over there. Are you looking for Sarah Wilson.

630
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 1: That's Sarah. Hey are you named Sarah Wilson And she says, yeah,

631
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: that's me. And then she's like, well, I'm just gonna

632
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: walk away as you guys go talk to her. And

633
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: you know, there's just a lot of this like convincing

634
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: people and and gift of gab. You know, you've got

635
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: to really be a smooth talker. Um. This reminds me

636
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: of the story a little bit of that that bridge. Yeah, yeah,

637
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: tab Or Bridge, right, the two French marshals who decided

638
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: to con their way across the Danube. Yeah. You You

639
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: and Noel had a really great episode about this and

640
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: thanks man. Yeah, you know, ridiculous historians. If you have

641
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: not listened to that episode, go dig it up. I mean,

642
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: we kind of just gave you the surprise ending. But

643
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: it's still a great story regardless. There's all sorts of

644
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: weird boasting and French chest puffery and uh, you know,

645
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: almost bombings and Hungarian Confusion and which, by the way,

646
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: really a band name. I think Hungarian Confusion that is

647
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: an excellent band name, my friend. I'm hang on, sorry

648
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: everybody listening, I'm going to write that down. Okayn's actually

649
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: just filing for analysis right now. Yes, revolution, but Sarah Wilson.

650
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: She is not confused about what she's doing. She heads

651
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: out of Virginia, goes north, and at least for the

652
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: foreseeable future, lives a somewhat normal life. Still has a

653
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 1: lot of her money, which she again like, where where

654
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: does the money go? Where does she keep it? Are

655
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: there secret bank accounts? Does she have secret pockets? Has

656
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: she literally buried boxes of coin? Maybe she has just

657
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 1: like a lot of hair, just like a huge head

658
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: of hair, and there's just like envelopes of money in there.

659
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: Who could be I mean, at the time, it may

660
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: have been a sound investments. Yeah, you know, some money

661
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: sewn into the lining of a coat or something like that. Anyway,

662
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: she's got all this money, and she ends up all

663
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 1: the way up in New York. She actually meets a

664
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: young military man named William Talbot or alternatively Sterling. Oh

665
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: is that right? Well, it is sometimes it differs, depends

666
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: on the source. But yeah, she meets this. She meets

667
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 1: a nice young man and he is a military man.

668
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: He's a officer in the light Dragoons. And the war

669
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: transpires spoiler alert. This part of the North American continent

670
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: becomes a country we call the United States today. Part

671
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: of it, Okay, you're familiar with its work. And the

672
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: couple decides to stay in this new country. What are

673
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: they doing. Probably they're they're avoiding arrest for Sarah to England.

674
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: But they also she uses her money. Maybe maybe she

675
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: did this, Maybe she kept jewelry and then sold the jewelry.

676
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 1: That might have happened, but she used is this money

677
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: that she has acquired to set up her husband as

678
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: a businessman, and they live, as far as we can

679
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: tell from the record, they live, uh happily. Ever after,

680
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: they have a lot of kids, and they set up

681
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: their residence in the Bowery in New York, which at

682
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: the time was a quiet, nice neighborhood. M kind of

683
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: a happy ending for her. It is, especially we can

684
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: consider how close she came to very very terrible things.

685
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. It also reminds me in a way.

686
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: You remember that Disney film Pinocchio, right the stories. So

687
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: as a kid, I thought Pinocchio was really cool until

688
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 1: one of my friends later on, years and years later,

689
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: pointed out to me that Pinocchio has this horrible lesson

690
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: for children in terms of morality. Tell me about it. Well,

691
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: I'll keep it brief, but Pinocchio from his beginning is

692
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: told to do the following kind of things or not

693
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: do these things, so that he can ultimately become self

694
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: actualized and be a real boy. He breaks all of

695
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: those rules or those commandments or whatever, and then at

696
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: the end he gets the reward. Anyway, that's true. So

697
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: did Sarah Wilson have a moment? We we can tell.

698
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: One thing we can tell that differentiates her from other

699
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: con artists is that when she got to a good spot,

700
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: she stopped. There are other con artists who just can't

701
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: give up the game. Well, there was a point though,

702
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 1: you know. And and this is where I'd like more

703
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: detail about her life. Um, And I mean this to

704
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: me seems ripe for some Hollywood tale, and I'd love

705
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: to see this turned into a film and really dig

706
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: into the story. But there was a time before she

707
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: met her husband, after she escaped Virginia where she she

708
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: had this little side escapade. And there's not a lot

709
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: that I could dig up about this, but she she

710
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: teamed up with this um, with this criminal who was

711
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: known by the alias of Tom Bell. He was uh.

712
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: He was an irishman um also known as Patrick O'Connor,

713
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 1: but they kind of worked together for a while, and

714
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 1: he introduced himself to people as Mr Edward Augustus Montague,

715
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 1: a gentleman of fortune and betrothed lover of Princess Susanna

716
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,439
Speaker 1: Carolina Matilda. So I maybe maybe the princess came back

717
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: after her her flight from Virginia and before she settled

718
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 1: in New York. Maybe there's this this sort of interim

719
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: of her flirting again with this world of intrigue and

720
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: a scam, and I don't know much about it. We

721
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: we don't know, like we as a species don't know

722
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: much about this part of her life, which makes it

723
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: by far one of the most intriguing and fascinating. We

724
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: don't know much about Patrick O'Connor nor his alias Tom Bell,

725
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: but we do know that they did for for a

726
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: brief time. She did go into a two person con act,

727
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: and who knows, maybe they really were betrothed. I don't know.

728
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: I mean, he was a fairly well known criminal at

729
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: the time. I mean, this could be the sort of

730
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 1: thing where maybe they pulled off one last heist and

731
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: she got out of the life. It's a sort of

732
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: you know, like a like a Danny Ocean kind of

733
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: situation where she teams up with this acclaimed crime guy,

734
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: she gets what she needs, and um, you know she

735
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 1: has her happily ever after. You also have to wonder

736
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: whether the man who ultimately became her husband knew about

737
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 1: her stint as a princess knew Did she tell him

738
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: her true, true, true story or did she say like,

739
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: maybe I'm an orphan and this is my family fortune

740
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: and I love you, I don't want to talk about

741
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,240
Speaker 1: my past. Let's start a new life together in the Bowery.

742
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: And then maybe he just went head over heels Christopher.

743
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: Maybe he was just like, well, I'm in love and

744
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: being a dude, I'm kind of dumb and I do

745
00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: need some money. And I do and I do need

746
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: eats them as you said, cash money. Oh, speaking of

747
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: cash money, Bennett is I I thought this might be

748
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: a good way to wrap up because I this is

749
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: a little off topic, but it's related to some some

750
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: royalty and some cash money. I wanted to get your

751
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: opinion and ridiculous historians. If you have any advice for me.

752
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: I got this email from a Nigerian prince. Okay do

753
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: you tell? And he's asking for some money. Okay, should

754
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: I help him out? Um? How much money is he

755
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 1: asking for more than I've got? Oh? Okay? Uh, then

756
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: without having a doctorate in finance, I would advise you

757
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: depending on how much. Well, first, how much time do

758
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: you have? I don't have enough time. Spoiler alert, I'm

759
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: not giving this guy any money. But that's But the

760
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 1: thing is, you know, we're talking about this weird scam

761
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: of someone putting themselves forth as royalty, and it it

762
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: sounds like the sort of thing like, oh, this is

763
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,399
Speaker 1: just a thing that you know, those historical routes back

764
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 1: in the day fell for. It's going on still. Um.

765
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: I in preparing to come chat with you guys here,

766
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: I did a little digging and there was a report

767
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: last year from the Security Services a d T. In

768
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen alone, people in the United States fell

769
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 1: prey to the Nigerian scams and other sort of email

770
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: uh scams like that where people are just asking for

771
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: money to the tune of more than seven hundred thousand

772
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: dollars last year alone, um and it averaged out to

773
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 1: about two thousand, one hundred dollars per person. So, this

774
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: this scam of royalty, this desire to buy into a story,

775
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 1: this ability to be hoodwinked. Um. You know, I think

776
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: it's just baked into humanity. It's just who we are.

777
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: We want to believe, we want to help um and

778
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: if someone says there are prince or a princess, Hey,

779
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 1: why not? Well, and it gets our our inner fox boulder.

780
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: I want to believe what I was going to advise

781
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,720
Speaker 1: you to do off record, again, not being a doctorate,

782
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: just between you, Casey, me and the millions of us listening.

783
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: You're not recording this case right, this is all off

784
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: the record, person perfect. I just don't want this out

785
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: in the world. That would be embarrassing. I've read accounts

786
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: of people who essentially scammed the scammers, which is on

787
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: the murky side of unethical pranking. What are you talking that?

788
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: That is fighting the fight? Well, the idea is, you know,

789
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: they'll say stuff like, sure, you've contacted me, I do

790
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 1: have this money. I will give you this information, but

791
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 1: first I want to know, uh first, seeing to prove

792
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: something in good faith or whatever. And I've found situations

793
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: wherein someone convinced the scammer or someone who knows the

794
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: scammer to get a tattoo or to write essays about

795
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 1: Harry Potter and things of that nature. So if you

796
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 1: have the time and the inclination, and you don't feel

797
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: particularly guilty about trolling people who are trying to steal

798
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: from you, then then I would advise to find I

799
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: would advise you find the funniest prank to pull. We'll

800
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: check back in. We'll check back in, and perhaps, Christopher,

801
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: one day you will be known to as as a

802
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: genius of the con because one of the most American

803
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 1: things about about the way we treat con artists here

804
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:32,399
Speaker 1: in the US is that they are often begrudgingly admired,

805
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. The idea of this this um,

806
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: slick talking, clever individual violating social norms and getting away

807
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: with it, it's it's imprinted into our DNA. And that's

808
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: why the Providence Rhode Island Gazette and Country Journal in

809
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: January of seventeen seventy four noted that Sarah Wilson is

810
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: quote the most surprising genius of the female sex that

811
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: was ever obliged to visit America. Let's just walk past

812
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:07,240
Speaker 1: that blatant, you know, misogyny. There. They're basically saying, smart

813
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: for a woman, because they're being jerks. But what they're

814
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: also doing, and when I think is more important for

815
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: our purposes here, is they are phrasing the intelligence of

816
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 1: this person. They're saying, this is one of the smartest

817
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: people in this country. Too bad they're not a politician

818
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: or you know, a philanthropist. Can't win them all, can't

819
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: win them all. But I feel like this was a

820
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: big win for Casey Nolan, Spirit and I to have

821
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: you over on the show, and we hope that you

822
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode. We want to hear from you. Let

823
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 1: us know some of your favorite historical cons other than

824
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: the Trojan Horse, other than that one. You know, that's

825
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: that's sort of like going to karaokeme plane, don't stop

826
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 1: believing and and whatever we want to call this con

827
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: of you. So how being convinced to let me sit

828
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: in here and chat with you guys? I feel like

829
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: I've scammed everyone. Hey, yeah, that's a Hey, that's a

830
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: good question. Is your name Christopher, isn't it? I don't know, Casey.

831
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 1: I believe him. He's just got such a such an

832
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: amicable air about him. You know, no comment alright, just

833
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: just call me princess. Oh wow, you guys are in

834
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,919
Speaker 1: on this together. Well, here's hoping that I don't get

835
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: scammed out of millions of dollars. But if I do,

836
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: I'm glad it was from you too. Thank you, as

837
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: always to our super producer, Casey Pegram. Thank you to

838
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: Alex Williams, who composed our track. Thank you to Gabe,

839
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 1: our research associate. Christopher. We often thank you on this show,

840
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 1: so it's a little strange that you're here now. I'm

841
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: really glad to thank you in person. Thanks for coming on, man,

842
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: you're welcome. Thank you for having me Bannon, and thanks

843
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,359
Speaker 1: for having me ridiculous Historians. And stay tuned for our

844
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: next episode, Whearing Christopher and I will explore not a

845
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 1: not a come No, things are going to get a

846
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: little grimeier grammar Grammar Grimer, just a little dark, little gross,

847
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: so fun, still ridiculous. Stay tuned for more podcasts from

848
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Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.