1
00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:10,799
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the

2
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,040
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am

3
00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,040
Speaker 1: Eastern on Effo, Cardplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg

4
00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,400
Speaker 1: Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts,

5
00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:23,360
Speaker 1: or watch us live on YouTube.

6
00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:26,760
Speaker 2: Here we go the breaking news from the Supreme Court.

7
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,920
Speaker 2: Supreme Court overturning a Chevron ruling. And this really is

8
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,880
Speaker 2: a blow to agency power. So this is truly about

9
00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,199
Speaker 2: federal agencies and the current wide birth They have to

10
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,960
Speaker 2: interpret unclear laws, and it looks like the Supreme Court

11
00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,880
Speaker 2: has now overturned that Chevron deference. Let's get to June

12
00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,120
Speaker 2: Grosso right away. She covers Bloomberg legal analysts and hosts

13
00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,880
Speaker 2: of the Bloomberg Law Show. June We've been waiting for this.

14
00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:56,520
Speaker 2: Walk us through what this means.

15
00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,600
Speaker 3: So the Chevron doctrine means, you know, the legal definition

16
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,680
Speaker 3: of it basically is that if there is an ambiguous

17
00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,440
Speaker 3: statute and ambiguous law, then deference is given to the

18
00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 3: agency's interpretation. What it also means is, basically, you know

19
00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,160
Speaker 3: who has more power the administrators at agencies or judges,

20
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,800
Speaker 3: you know, experts in the area or judges who have

21
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,600
Speaker 3: to sort of learn as they as the.

22
00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:22,280
Speaker 4: Cases go on.

23
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,280
Speaker 3: So we have been suspecting that this court was going

24
00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 3: to overturn Chevron because conservatives have for years been targeting it,

25
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,040
Speaker 3: and several of the justices, including Clarence Thomas, have been

26
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:36,840
Speaker 3: talking about overturning Chevron.

27
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:38,160
Speaker 4: What this means.

28
00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,560
Speaker 3: And this case was just a case, actually it was

29
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,480
Speaker 3: two cases with the National Marine Fisheries where there's a

30
00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 3: rule that the fisheries have to have observers on the

31
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,080
Speaker 3: boats and they have to pay for those.

32
00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,720
Speaker 4: And that was being challenged here.

33
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,720
Speaker 3: And so even though the fact is that they've never

34
00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,400
Speaker 3: actually had to pay for those fines, but theoretically they do.

35
00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,559
Speaker 4: So what the court is saying, and.

36
00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,120
Speaker 3: It's the chief road is it's six to three again,

37
00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,080
Speaker 3: second six to three decision in this case. And you know,

38
00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,520
Speaker 3: we suspected it that it would come out this way

39
00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:16,600
Speaker 3: because of yesterday's opinion knocking back the sec and saying

40
00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,079
Speaker 3: it can't have in fraud cases, it can't have its

41
00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,400
Speaker 3: in house counsel. It has to be people have to

42
00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,560
Speaker 3: be able to go to the federal court and have

43
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,440
Speaker 3: a trial by jury. So we expected this, and you know,

44
00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,040
Speaker 3: anyone knows. There are these people who say this is

45
00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,000
Speaker 3: the you know, basically the end of the world kind

46
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,160
Speaker 3: of things. This means that federal agencies are going to

47
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,960
Speaker 3: you know, cut back on their regulations. Things are going

48
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,640
Speaker 3: to be challenged, they do things, you know, all of regulations,

49
00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:48,720
Speaker 3: health and safety, consumer regulations, food and drug that all

50
00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:50,880
Speaker 3: these are going to be affected by this, and they will.

51
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,400
Speaker 3: But the question is how much, and that remains to

52
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,800
Speaker 3: be seen. So and people on the other side say, well, no,

53
00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,000
Speaker 3: it's not going to really have that much of an effect.

54
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,160
Speaker 3: We haven't been really using Chevron, and as I've said before,

55
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,720
Speaker 3: the Department of Labor has already stopped using Chevron as

56
00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,640
Speaker 3: a reason for its regulations in light of this case

57
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:11,280
Speaker 3: coming down.

58
00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,520
Speaker 4: So we just don't know what the effect will be,

59
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,120
Speaker 4: whether it will be huge.

60
00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,919
Speaker 3: And also the Supreme Court hasn't really based any of

61
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:19,080
Speaker 3: its decisions.

62
00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,320
Speaker 4: On Chevron in a while, so who knows. But is

63
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,280
Speaker 4: a blow to agency power. As you said in the

64
00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:25,519
Speaker 4: first place.

65
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,440
Speaker 5: Why do we call it the Chevron deference, Because, like

66
00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,000
Speaker 5: you said, this actual case at hand that the Supreme

67
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,720
Speaker 5: Court is making a ruling on right now didn't have

68
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 5: anything to do with the actual company Chevron. Well, it

69
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,560
Speaker 5: was just a precedence walk us through life.

70
00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:43,960
Speaker 4: Well, in how we're understanding that.

71
00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,800
Speaker 3: With Supreme Court precedents, often the name of the case

72
00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,000
Speaker 3: where it's decided is given the title. So Chevron difference

73
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,000
Speaker 3: comes from a case four decades ago involving Chevron. So

74
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 3: that's why we call it Chevron defference. It has that name.

75
00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,800
Speaker 3: Has nothing really to do with the case the fisheries

76
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 3: case here, but that's the name it's had for four

77
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,880
Speaker 3: decades and that's the way it's referred to. So you know,

78
00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,800
Speaker 3: if you're in law school, that's what you're studying, the

79
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:11,160
Speaker 3: Chevron Chevron.

80
00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:12,760
Speaker 4: It's called it's Chevron document.

81
00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,480
Speaker 3: It's called Chevron deference because you give deference to the

82
00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:17,840
Speaker 3: agency's interpretation.

83
00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,720
Speaker 2: So does this mean, though, that it's going to be

84
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,200
Speaker 2: judges that are going to decide the laws versus experts

85
00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,680
Speaker 2: within agencies that aren't elected.

86
00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:27,159
Speaker 4: That decide laws.

87
00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,000
Speaker 3: Well, that is the intention of the what a judges

88
00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,080
Speaker 3: know about it interpreting? Well, what happens is judges, let's say,

89
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,839
Speaker 3: you know, they'll learn, for example, you have anti trust cases. Right,

90
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,200
Speaker 3: judges do all kinds of complex cases, So you have

91
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,480
Speaker 3: anti trust cases, and they take evidence from both sides,

92
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,680
Speaker 3: they listen to all the experts, they study it, and

93
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,400
Speaker 3: then they come out with a ruling. I mean the

94
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 3: Supreme Court, are they experts in the areas that they've

95
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,000
Speaker 3: been homelessness? You know, that's the way the judicial system works.

96
00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 3: You have judges who are supposedly independent and are independent

97
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,680
Speaker 3: and they come to a decision based on the facts

98
00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,960
Speaker 3: and based on weighing both sides of the arguments. But

99
00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,240
Speaker 3: you know, it's going to make it more difficult for

100
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,479
Speaker 3: some agency regulations and you can imagine that. And this

101
00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,520
Speaker 3: was pushed by conservatives and business groups. They wanted to

102
00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,720
Speaker 3: get rid of Chevron. So and this is all about

103
00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,000
Speaker 3: the you know, the war on the administrative state. How

104
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:26,760
Speaker 3: the six Conservatives have sort of been bent on not

105
00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,039
Speaker 3: taking down the administrative state, but certainly lessening the power

106
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,680
Speaker 3: of federal agencies. And as last year there was a

107
00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,320
Speaker 3: case involving the EPA and its control over water pollution,

108
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:44,159
Speaker 3: and the Supreme Court invented a doctrine called the Major

109
00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,080
Speaker 3: Questions doctrine so that they could take back some.

110
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:49,960
Speaker 4: Of the power that the EPA has there.

111
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,880
Speaker 3: So it's been going on for a while, but this

112
00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,359
Speaker 3: has been sort of out there as a target of

113
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:59,159
Speaker 3: conservatives and business groups. So the impact is who knows

114
00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:00,599
Speaker 3: what the impact will really be.

115
00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,680
Speaker 5: So what exactly do the how do the businesses feel

116
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,600
Speaker 5: about this decision? What is the general argument of why

117
00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,680
Speaker 5: the businesses want to overturn this.

118
00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,160
Speaker 3: Well, they think that agencies have too much power basically,

119
00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,360
Speaker 3: so they think that this is evening out the landscape,

120
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,760
Speaker 3: and you know, it just will make you know, businesses

121
00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,400
Speaker 3: don't like restrictions, right, I mean the sec that all

122
00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,000
Speaker 3: that we were talking about yesterday was in house you know,

123
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,080
Speaker 3: whether you can have your proceeding in house judged by

124
00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,479
Speaker 3: an administrative law judge who knows the area.

125
00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,599
Speaker 4: Securities right, securities.

126
00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,000
Speaker 3: Lawyer who knows the area, versus being able to go

127
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,880
Speaker 3: to court and have it, you know, a trial. So

128
00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,080
Speaker 3: obviously it's it's sort of the less restrictions on business,

129
00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,520
Speaker 3: the better it is. So that's I think what you know,

130
00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,480
Speaker 3: And so I haven't I haven't been able to read

131
00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:55,800
Speaker 3: it because I've been talking about it.

132
00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but my question, how much of this do you

133
00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,760
Speaker 2: think is about climate and the EPA And they're really

134
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:09,320
Speaker 2: tough restrictions that have come down through the agencies on interpretations.

135
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,600
Speaker 3: That excuse me, that's one sort of big area here.

136
00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,840
Speaker 3: But it's not just climate that's going to be affected,

137
00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:17,440
Speaker 3: of course not.

138
00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 2: But was that really why conservatives were pushing this or

139
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:21,800
Speaker 2: we're not totally clear.

140
00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,120
Speaker 3: Conservatives have been pushing this for And what's funny is

141
00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,920
Speaker 3: this case, the Chevron doctrine was a conservative doctrine that

142
00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,160
Speaker 3: was put out forty years ago, and in time conservatives

143
00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,680
Speaker 3: have just you know, don't like it. They don't like

144
00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,840
Speaker 3: the restrictions that it imposes, and so they've.

145
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:39,760
Speaker 4: They have attacked it.

146
00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:45,280
Speaker 3: But so it's it's just a you know, where you

147
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,119
Speaker 3: want less regulation. It's sort of you know, when Trump

148
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,400
Speaker 3: came in, less regulation, that's one of his things. I

149
00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,160
Speaker 3: took regulations away and he had this big stack of regulations.

150
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,600
Speaker 3: So and it, you know, also depending on the administration

151
00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,400
Speaker 3: whether or not regulations are being enforced more what.

152
00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:04,320
Speaker 4: The regulations are.

153
00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:09,840
Speaker 3: But this you know, will affect everything, workplace rules, every rule.

154
00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:11,600
Speaker 3: And I think that what's gonna happen is a lot

155
00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 3: of agencies are going to do what labor has been doing,

156
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 3: which is not rely on that say, it doesn't rely

157
00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,000
Speaker 3: on this. This is our agency power. It comes from

158
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 3: our agency power. We don't have to go to the

159
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:21,640
Speaker 3: Chevron difference.

160
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,440
Speaker 2: All right, June, thank you very much. I know we're

161
00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,320
Speaker 2: not done with you yet. Stay tuned because you never

162
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,600
Speaker 2: know what else is coming out. June Grassol Bloomberg, Senior

163
00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,440
Speaker 2: legal analyst, joining us. Let's continue the conversation here Anthony

164
00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,360
Speaker 2: Sabino as professor at Saint John's University, Tobin College of Business,

165
00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,600
Speaker 2: and as a reminder, we're looking at the Chevron deference

166
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,240
Speaker 2: has now been overturned. The Supreme Court throws out decades

167
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:50,000
Speaker 2: old legal doctrine that empowered federal regulations to interpret unclear laws. Professor,

168
00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,079
Speaker 2: thank you for joining us. We appreciate it. You've had

169
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,000
Speaker 2: some time to read through the opinions, give us your

170
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:55,720
Speaker 2: takeaways here.

171
00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,000
Speaker 6: Yes, well, first of all, thank you for having me

172
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,440
Speaker 6: on on this important day. This decision is the right decision.

173
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,800
Speaker 6: It's a very good decision because it honors both the

174
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,880
Speaker 6: Constitution in terms of its text and its constitutional plan. Now,

175
00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,880
Speaker 6: no doubt we have heard and we're going to hear

176
00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,800
Speaker 6: a lot more of the ringing of hands and stermon

177
00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 6: drag about. This is the Supreme Court going off the rails,

178
00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:26,360
Speaker 6: discarding story decisives, upending agency power and basically making life

179
00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,240
Speaker 6: very difficult for the agencies. I respectfully disagree, And to

180
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,600
Speaker 6: use a word I've heard mister Biden used quite recently,

181
00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:35,680
Speaker 6: quite a lot recently, is that's a lot of malarkey.

182
00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,760
Speaker 6: First of all, it's not a radical decision. It's true

183
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,880
Speaker 6: to the Constitution's text and to the constitutional plan for

184
00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,240
Speaker 6: the Supreme Court for all judges, wherever they may be.

185
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,840
Speaker 6: Their job description can be summed up in two words, judges.

186
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:55,439
Speaker 6: Judge Chevron diminished that. Okay. It required judges to defer

187
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,120
Speaker 6: to agencies, and it was keeping judges from doing their

188
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,439
Speaker 6: jobs which is too independently, thoughtfully and of course forthrightly

189
00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,960
Speaker 6: use all their skills or their wisdom to interpret the law.

190
00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:11,480
Speaker 6: And as such, Sefron inflicted damage upon checks and balances

191
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,679
Speaker 6: and separation of powers. In fact, Cheffron introduced an imbalance

192
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,400
Speaker 6: because it gave an advantage to the agencies, to the

193
00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,439
Speaker 6: government side. And again, it's a zero sum game. If

194
00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,439
Speaker 6: you advantage one side, then by force of logic, you

195
00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,679
Speaker 6: disadvantaged the other. But this case now does low for

196
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,720
Speaker 6: bright is it levels the playing field. Now everyone comes

197
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,760
Speaker 6: into court, okay, and has the same situation. The agencies

198
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,720
Speaker 6: will still be able to advocate for their position, the public, okay,

199
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,480
Speaker 6: the American citizens, she will still be able to advocate

200
00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,439
Speaker 6: for her position, and the court will listen to both sides,

201
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:48,920
Speaker 6: and we will take it. We will take it from there,

202
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,960
Speaker 6: and as such, now we will have that balance restored

203
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:55,199
Speaker 6: as the way it should be.

204
00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,599
Speaker 4: Okay, how should.

205
00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,800
Speaker 5: We understand what this means for business?

206
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:00,240
Speaker 7: Is?

207
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:01,160
Speaker 4: We are Bloomberg.

208
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,840
Speaker 5: We do follow markets very closely. What's your take on

209
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 5: the business implications of this decision?

210
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:10,559
Speaker 1: Right?

211
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,440
Speaker 6: Well, yes, yes, okay, right.

212
00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 8: I'm sorry, sorry, I'm zooming I I'm zooming in at

213
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,760
Speaker 8: the same time. Okay, but I'll stay on the phone

214
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:20,000
Speaker 8: with you.

215
00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,800
Speaker 3: All right, we got you.

216
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:24,640
Speaker 2: Can you hear us?

217
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 9: Yes, yes, okay.

218
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:28,760
Speaker 8: Do you want me to stay on the phone or

219
00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:30,439
Speaker 8: the computer?

220
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,280
Speaker 2: This is a great question. I feel like the computer

221
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:35,240
Speaker 2: is just fine.

222
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:36,839
Speaker 4: All right.

223
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,920
Speaker 2: So let's get back to that question in tid that

224
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,240
Speaker 2: Emily was asking in terms of what businesses sort of

225
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:41,680
Speaker 2: think about.

226
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,880
Speaker 8: Well, businesses are going to obviously welcome this because it

227
00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,760
Speaker 8: removes that unfair advantage. It is not, in any way,

228
00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,960
Speaker 8: shape or form, going to radically change how agencies do business.

229
00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,679
Speaker 8: They still have all the enforcement tools available to them

230
00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,040
Speaker 8: that they had previously. They're still going to be able

231
00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,040
Speaker 8: to argue their position, for they simply will know no

232
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,600
Speaker 8: longer have that unfair advantage of coming in ahead of

233
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,560
Speaker 8: the game and already being able to basically tell federal judges, well, look,

234
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,959
Speaker 8: you don't have to apply your skills, you don't have

235
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,080
Speaker 8: to analyze these ambiguities and statutes. We're the experts. We

236
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,480
Speaker 8: will do that for you, and just listen to us.

237
00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,880
Speaker 8: And again, that violates separation of powers and checks and

238
00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,000
Speaker 8: balances because you diminish the power of the judges to

239
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,800
Speaker 8: do the job that they constitutionally bound to do, and

240
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,280
Speaker 8: you were expanding the power of the agencies, which are,

241
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 8: of course, as we know, part of the executive branch

242
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,360
Speaker 8: part of Article two. So you elevate one branch over

243
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,320
Speaker 8: the other branch and prevent the other branch, the judiciary,

244
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 8: from doing its job. Now, certainly businesses will benefit by

245
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,160
Speaker 8: having this, but also enforcement actions are going to go around.

246
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,360
Speaker 8: They're going to continue and the way they have in

247
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:50,040
Speaker 8: the best.

248
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:52,240
Speaker 4: Going forward.

249
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,400
Speaker 2: Do you think that laws will then be written with

250
00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,720
Speaker 2: different kind of clarity then to prevent things being helped

251
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:01,400
Speaker 2: up courts like exactly.

252
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,240
Speaker 4: Okay, so that's the whole point.

253
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:04,599
Speaker 2: Right, So if that's the case, can you give me

254
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,120
Speaker 2: an example of something that might have been that that

255
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,680
Speaker 2: might be rewritten or might be written differently, now that

256
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,000
Speaker 2: the Chevron deference is by the way aside.

257
00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,000
Speaker 8: Okay, Well, for example, and I heard you discussing this

258
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,760
Speaker 8: for June a couple of moments ago. Is environmental laws

259
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,839
Speaker 8: and regulations promulgated there under Congress. And again this ships

260
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,280
Speaker 8: if anything shifts a burden slightly or basically is reminded

261
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:27,960
Speaker 8: to Congress that they need to do a better job.

262
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,400
Speaker 8: We have to remember that one of the reasons Chevron

263
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,760
Speaker 8: came about was that the Supreme Court at that time,

264
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,640
Speaker 8: in nineteen eighty fourth said all right, well, what do

265
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,840
Speaker 8: we do when there were ambiguities in the statute? Well,

266
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,559
Speaker 8: you have a statute that's ambiguous. You have an agency

267
00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,880
Speaker 8: that promulgates regulation or brings some enforcement action to enforce

268
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,439
Speaker 8: that statute notwithstanding the ambiguity. And as such, a court

269
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,720
Speaker 8: at that time in Chefron said, well, let's listen to

270
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,400
Speaker 8: the experts, let's listen to the agencies. And that again

271
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,320
Speaker 8: at the time Chefron was a good decision and rightly

272
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,720
Speaker 8: decided and worked, but it's been taken too far where

273
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,600
Speaker 8: now again the difference has gotten out of hand and

274
00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,560
Speaker 8: it has increased the imbalance of the favoritism of the

275
00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,760
Speaker 8: agency's view and also again basically shutting out for closing

276
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,520
Speaker 8: judges from doing their job. Now back to again as

277
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,640
Speaker 8: an example environmental law bit it applies to securities law

278
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 8: anti trust law as well because over the controversy presently therein,

279
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,080
Speaker 8: it's going to compel Congress to write better laws, to

280
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 8: erase ambiguity, to iron out the ambiguities and the problems

281
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,320
Speaker 8: and the misconceptions in the words the statute, so that

282
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,840
Speaker 8: way you have clear statutory text. Therefore, regulations promulgated by

283
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,760
Speaker 8: agencies will just be just as clear because they are

284
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,520
Speaker 8: starting from the clear foundation of the statute itself. And

285
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,640
Speaker 8: enforcement actions in terms of what can be brought and

286
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,320
Speaker 8: what cannot be brought will likewise benefit from that same clarity,

287
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,920
Speaker 8: and judges of course will have an easier time because

288
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,040
Speaker 8: as again the Supreme Court has said, and the Supreme

289
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 8: Court of two hundred years is said, we go by

290
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,880
Speaker 8: the plain English meaning of a statute and we apply

291
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,040
Speaker 8: it according to its plain English text.

292
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,360
Speaker 2: So in theory though in theory, businesses should have then

293
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,160
Speaker 2: more clarity, I think, is what you're saying, Like, if

294
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,200
Speaker 2: the law is written more clearly, then the business should say, Okay,

295
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,160
Speaker 2: now I got it. What's the reality though, like Congress

296
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,280
Speaker 2: can barely get you know, anything done, are they're really

297
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,200
Speaker 2: going to be able to write more clearly when it

298
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,920
Speaker 2: comes to certain laws, particularly confusing ones like climate or antitrust.

299
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,120
Speaker 8: That's their job, that's what we the people let them for.

300
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,080
Speaker 8: And if Congress cannot write laws with clarity, then it's

301
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,600
Speaker 8: up to the American people to exercise our will at

302
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,880
Speaker 8: the ballot box and put in people who know how

303
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,400
Speaker 8: to write a clear, unambiguous statute. It's as simple as that.

304
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,880
Speaker 8: That's the constitutional plan. That's separation of powers, that's checks

305
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,680
Speaker 8: and balances. So Congress needs to get to work. And

306
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,240
Speaker 8: in the instances where Congress cannot be okay, as clear

307
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,880
Speaker 8: as one might like, the bottom line is that also

308
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:56,240
Speaker 8: reflects political compromise, because, yes, ambiguities arise in statutes because

309
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,160
Speaker 8: of the political compromise that is undertaken in the halls

310
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,960
Speaker 8: of Congress, and of course with the President and ultimately

311
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,040
Speaker 8: sign it off and make it into law and so forth.

312
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,720
Speaker 8: So to that extent, that's a natural part of the process.

313
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,840
Speaker 8: That's democracy at its best. That's a republican form of government.

314
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:11,440
Speaker 9: That's it's best.

315
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 1: All right.

316
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,640
Speaker 8: You're not always going to get perfectly clear statutes, okay,

317
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,480
Speaker 8: but again, there's nothing wrong with Congress trying to do that.

318
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,560
Speaker 8: And if I may, as you say, businesses, but let

319
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,280
Speaker 8: me broaden that, if you allow me. Okay, it's not

320
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 8: just American businesses, it's all Americans. All Americans individual in

321
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 8: their personal lives, their personal liberties, business people, okay, business persons, businesses,

322
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,200
Speaker 8: and entities. We're all entitled to statutes that clearly state

323
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,240
Speaker 8: what the law is. So that way we can look

324
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,720
Speaker 8: at them and we know that the law is consistent,

325
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,160
Speaker 8: it's applied to everybody the same way. It's predictable. So

326
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,000
Speaker 8: when I decide I'm going to take a certain course

327
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 8: of action, okay, I know what the legal result is

328
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,640
Speaker 8: going to be. That's part of America. That's the way

329
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,840
Speaker 8: it should be. And once again, Local Right today restores

330
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,200
Speaker 8: that balance by letting judges judge.

331
00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 2: All right, professor, we hope that plays out that way.

332
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,840
Speaker 2: Anthony Sabino, Professor at Saint John's University Tobin College of Business.

333
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 2: Just as a reminder to update you on this breaking news,

334
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,680
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court overturns a Chevron ruling in a blow

335
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:13,199
Speaker 2: to agency power, throwing a four decade old legal doctrine

336
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,320
Speaker 2: that empowered federal regulators to interpret unclear laws, and now

337
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 2: that goes to judges and then back to Congress to

338
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,399
Speaker 2: write very clear laws.

339
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,879
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live

340
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,480
Speaker 1: weekdays at ten am Eastern on applecard Play and Android

341
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,680
Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business. You can also listen live

342
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,879
Speaker 1: on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station Just

343
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,639
Speaker 1: Say Alexa playing Bloomberg eleven thirty.

344
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,199
Speaker 2: It's definitely the Supreme Court decision day. The latest is

345
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,240
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court backs the January sixth defendant curbing the

346
00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,679
Speaker 2: use of Enron law. Remember, nearly three hundred defendants, including

347
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,359
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, were charged under this twenty two thousand and

348
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,320
Speaker 2: two law that grew out of the Enron collapse regarding

349
00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,399
Speaker 2: people who obstruct an official proceeding. And it looks like

350
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,080
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court is backed the January sixth defendant. June

351
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,479
Speaker 2: grasshow senior legal analyst is still with US June. What

352
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,920
Speaker 2: does this mean, Well.

353
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,000
Speaker 3: It means that some defendants are going to have their

354
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 3: cases trim back. And this also affects Donald Trump because

355
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,600
Speaker 3: he's been charged with this same with the same crime.

356
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 3: So it's going to affect a lot of January sixth cases.

357
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,119
Speaker 3: I think very few of the January sixth defendants just

358
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 3: have this charge that they're facing, So if they've had

359
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 3: a trial already, they'll probably still.

360
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 2: Be And is this charge specifically against preventing approving President

361
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:43,159
Speaker 2: Biden or or is it like them breaking into Congress

362
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,040
Speaker 2: it's like listening Nancy Pelosi's desk.

363
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,520
Speaker 3: Well, it's yeah, it's about obstructing, that's the whole question.

364
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,000
Speaker 3: It's about obstructing official proceeding. And this was a law

365
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 3: that came in as we know post and Ron, and

366
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 3: so what the defendants were saying here is this law

367
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,240
Speaker 3: doesn't apply to this kind of a proceeding. This is

368
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,720
Speaker 3: a law about papers and disrupting papers and stuff. And

369
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,680
Speaker 3: so but you know, the law could be any law

370
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,879
Speaker 3: can be read broadly or narrowly. And it says that

371
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,119
Speaker 3: they said that the government must show that the defendant

372
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,080
Speaker 3: impaired the availability or integrity for use in an official

373
00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,480
Speaker 3: proceeding of records, documents, objects, or other things used in

374
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 3: an official proceeding, or attempting to do so.

375
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,680
Speaker 4: It's six to three again. But what's interesting is that

376
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 4: the three are not the three liberals.

377
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,199
Speaker 3: The three are two liberals, Justice Kagan and Justice Soto

378
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,639
Speaker 3: Mayor and conservative Justice Amy Coney Barrett. So it'll be

379
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 3: interesting to see. And this is a case.

380
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,399
Speaker 4: That the Chief wrote the majority opinion in.

381
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,439
Speaker 3: And you know, if you look back a lot of

382
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,200
Speaker 3: the most important cases, the Chief decided because the Chief

383
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,160
Speaker 3: has the ability if he's in the majority, to decide

384
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 3: who will write the opinion, And so the Chief decided

385
00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 3: that he'll write it himself, meaning that you know, he

386
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,879
Speaker 3: thinks it's a very important case and he wanted to

387
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:06,240
Speaker 3: handle it. And I'm trying to see what else it says.

388
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 2: While you're looking, I want to update our audience right now,

389
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,400
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court backs January sixth defendant, curbing the use

390
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 2: of Enron law. This could affect President Trump as well

391
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 2: as hundreds of January six cases. In this centers on

392
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,439
Speaker 2: the Enron rule that said that people who obstruct an

393
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 2: official proceeding could be charged for that. This appears to

394
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,639
Speaker 2: them sort of put that on the sidelines and say, no,

395
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,880
Speaker 2: this was not a disruption of a official proceeding. We're

396
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 2: talking something like nearly three hundred defendants, including Donald Trump,

397
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 2: were charged under this two thousand and two law. So

398
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 2: we are looking at that as we go. So if

399
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 2: I'm one of the defendants, what happens June, like, do

400
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 2: I go back and say.

401
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, what happens?

402
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know procedurally exactly how it works,

403
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 3: but most likely the defendants in these cases, their attorneys

404
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,359
Speaker 3: will go to maybe the Justice Department will do something

405
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 3: wholesale and you know, drop all that. The Justicepartment will

406
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 3: just come in and drop all the charges that have

407
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 3: to do with this and then you know, but it

408
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 3: could it's going to cause a lot of hassles in that.

409
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 3: So defendants might say I was sentenced to well, not

410
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 3: many of them are serving long sentences. I was sentenced

411
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: to six months, and now this came out, so maybe

412
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 3: I should only be sentenced to three because I have

413
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,239
Speaker 3: two other charges. But I mean, this is about the

414
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 3: interpretation of this law and whether you could interpret it

415
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,159
Speaker 3: as meaning more than you know the fact that it

416
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:38,880
Speaker 3: applies to January sixth actions that a decision. I'm trying

417
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,960
Speaker 3: to just see one thing and to see what they said.

418
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 3: But in other words, it's they took the statute and

419
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 3: it was a novel use of this statue. But they

420
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 3: were trying to find something that would fit with the

421
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,680
Speaker 3: way the January sixth rioters went into Congress and obstructed

422
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 3: what was going on there. So they were trying to

423
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 3: find a way to fit it, and this, to them fit.

424
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 3: But what the Supreme Court is saying is that, know,

425
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 3: this is not about that kind of proceeding. This is

426
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 3: about more about papers and documents, and that's what Enron

427
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 3: was about. So you know, it's hard because I'm.

428
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 4: You're talking as your as you read, Okay.

429
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 3: So the case is going to go back to the

430
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 3: DC Circuit and then it will assess whether the indictment

431
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 3: can still stand, the Trump indictment in light of this

432
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 3: new and narrow interpretation of the law. It'll be interesting

433
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 3: to see what happened. Justice Jackson, who is siding with

434
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 3: the with the five Conservatives here has a concurring opinion.

435
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 4: It'll be interesting to see.

436
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 3: Why she decided to side with the conservatives. And you know,

437
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 3: we've seen this term that she's one of the liberal

438
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 3: justices who has gone in different ways than the other

439
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 3: liberal justices in different points in certain cases, and this

440
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 3: is certainly one of them. So it's a narrow reading

441
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 3: of this statute, is what it basically is. And I

442
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 3: think you can see today we had there were all

443
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 3: six to three decisions today.

444
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,120
Speaker 4: So I mean, this is a court so highly divided.

445
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 3: And you know, at the beginning of the term, we

446
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 3: had justices even Justice amy Cony Barrett and Justice Sonya

447
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 3: so to Mayor and the Chief loves to say this,

448
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 3: you know, most of our decisions, most of the decisions

449
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 3: are unanimous.

450
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 4: Well, those are unanimous.

451
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 3: Because they are decisions in cases that you and the

452
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 3: rest of the public doesn't hear about their technical or

453
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 3: whatever when it comes to these hot button social issues,

454
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 3: when it comes to this kind of a case things

455
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 3: involving Trump, it's six to three yes.

456
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 4: So this court is so divided.

457
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 3: And this is exactly what they don't want to show

458
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 3: the public that they're divided down, you know, ideological lines

459
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 3: for the most part.

460
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Dune, it looks like we will see you

461
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 2: on Monday. They're done for the day, and it looks

462
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 2: like Supreme Court's last opinion day will be Monday. We

463
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,479
Speaker 2: know what that means. Trump Community will be coming at

464
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,640
Speaker 2: ten o'clock on Monday. We will be here with June

465
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 2: Grasso for that Senior Legal and List joining us at Bloomberg.

466
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 2: So again, we've had a lot going on. But the

467
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 2: latest Supreme Court ruling is that they sided with the

468
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 2: January sixth Capitol riot defendant in a ruling that could

469
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,919
Speaker 2: affect hundreds of prosecutions, including the criminal case in Washington

470
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: against former President Trump. It Noah goes back to the

471
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 2: d C Serga Court to rule on whether the indictments

472
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 2: can still stand under this new interpretation of the Enron

473
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 2: law that is designed to help ease official proceedings. That

474
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: you cannot obstruct official proceedings. That is that Enron rule.

475
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: All right, let's get more here with Caroline Frederickson, Senior

476
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 2: Fellow at Brennan and Strategic Council Counselor on Democracy and

477
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: Power at Open Markets Institute. Can you just walk me

478
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 2: through what you expect to happen next?

479
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 10: Well, I mean, I'm just like you. I'm trying to

480
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 10: digest what happened but I think we're going to have

481
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 10: a whole variety of cases that are going to be

482
00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 10: reopened for return to lower cour for you know, either

483
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 10: dropping the charge all together and proceeding on the other charges,

484
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 10: or adding further you know, evidence and qualifications to make

485
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 10: it more pertinent to the actual connection.

486
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 9: To the destruction of evidence.

487
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 10: And you know, I think that's going to be obviously challenging.

488
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 10: There are a lot of people who've been convicted already.

489
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 5: Caroline, to what extent are you considering this a win

490
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 5: for Donald Trump a positive development?

491
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 10: You know, it's really hard to say on you know,

492
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 10: the little that you know, we know, having just glanced

493
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 10: at the headnotes to try and absorb it. But he's

494
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 10: certainly going to make it out like it's a win

495
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 10: and that the Justice Department has overreached and that it

496
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 10: continues to overreach and his and it goes to his

497
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 10: story about the vendetta that is has been waged against

498
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 10: him by an over politicized Department of Justice. So he's

499
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 10: going to call it a win regardless of what anybody

500
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 10: else says. To the extent that it actually affects any

501
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 10: case against him, We'll have to see again. I think

502
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 10: the Justice Department is going to reformulate these cases. It's

503
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 10: going to try and establish in some that they have

504
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 10: the requisite connection to the charges that are listed. And

505
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 10: this is you know, this is an interesting case because

506
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 10: it follows on an earlier case dealing with the destruction

507
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 10: of a fish. Actually when some fisher fisherman was was

508
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 10: was picked up for violating laws regarding the kind of

509
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 10: size and the fish he was he was pulling up

510
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 10: and uh, and he threw he threw back some fish,

511
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 10: and he was charged under this law. And the question was,

512
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 10: you know, is a fish a tangible object under the law,

513
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 10: And and they found in fact in that case that

514
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 10: it wasn't. That it was supposed to be related to

515
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 10: a document and so forth. So we're sort of seeing

516
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 10: this as of a piece with that. Kagan was of

517
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 10: dissent in both in both cases here this one and

518
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 10: that one, your prior case, and so I think, you know,

519
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 10: it'll be she's been trying to make the argument that

520
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 10: this otherwise word in there is a broad sweeping term

521
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 10: that should allow anything that's connected to the obstruction of

522
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 10: an official proceeding. Then it doesn't have to be related

523
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 10: to a particularly destruction of evidence, and so you know,

524
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 10: I think, will the Justice Department be able to now

525
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 10: show that they were trying to inhibit the actual uh

526
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 10: counting of the ballots and you know, a physical piece

527
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 10: of evidence a document. Maybe they will and they may

528
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 10: be able to, but that remains to be seen.

529
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 2: If they don't or they can't, then what happens with

530
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 2: all of these defendants, including President Trump.

531
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 10: Well, I mean just remember that there were multiple charges

532
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 10: in all of these cases, and so I think there

533
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 10: are probably any of them who were uh prosecuted simply

534
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 10: on this on this particular charge. This was you know,

535
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 10: I think an additional one that that allowed them to

536
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 10: enhance these sentences, and so I think in this case,

537
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 10: you know, they will be a potential lessening of the sentences.

538
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 10: Some people will be sentenced to time served, uh and

539
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 10: some people, you know, will perhaps get off altogether because

540
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 10: they're their charges are so minimal that they will be

541
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 10: uh uh kind of slap on the wrist. So I

542
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 10: think it'll be seen, I mean there, it will remain

543
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 10: to be seen. There'll be a lot of different outcomes

544
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 10: depending on the level of engagement with with President Trump.

545
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 10: You know, he obviously had greater involvement in in all

546
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 10: of the different UH back and forth between members of

547
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 10: his campaign and variety of people working on on thwarting

548
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 10: the counting of ballots and UH on January sixth. There there,

549
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,479
Speaker 10: there they may be able to and Jack Smith may

550
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 10: be able to assemble a greater amount of evidence that

551
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 10: will continue to keep these charges more relevant for Donald

552
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 10: Trump himself.

553
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 5: Can we actually zoom out and could you talk a

554
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 5: little bit more about the two thousand and two law

555
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 5: that grew out of Enron that's kind of at the

556
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 5: center of the question this decision.

557
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 10: Right, Well, you know, it was an interesting in that

558
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:29,479
Speaker 10: particular situation. You had a statue that was not able

559
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 10: to capture somebody who actually destroyed the documents and destroyed

560
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 10: physical evidence, and instead it went after those who encouraged

561
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 10: or embedded, but it didn't actually go after the direct perpetrator.

562
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 10: And so what Congress tried to do is strengthen the

563
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 10: law so that it would be broader in scope and

564
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 10: enable the prosecution of those who'd actually been directly involved

565
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 10: in trying to evade.

566
00:29:59,200 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 9: Prosecution.

567
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 10: So it let the big fish, so to speak, off,

568
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 10: and those who are less responsible could be prosecuted. So

569
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 10: they tried to fix that, and this this irony perhaps

570
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 10: is that, at least according to the Supreme Court, they

571
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 10: didn't do a very good job of it.

572
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, Caroline, we appreciate it. Thank you for walking us

573
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: through all of this. Caroline Frederickson, Senior Fellow at Brennan

574
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: and strategic counselor on Democracy and Power at Open Markets Institute.

575
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: The Supreme Court is done for the day. They're coming

576
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: back on Monday, and the Supreme Court will be issuing

577
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: the Trump Community ruling on Monday around ten am. In

578
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: that hour, we are going to have live coverage of that,

579
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: so definitely stay tuned with us for that.

580
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence podcast. Catch us live

581
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: weekdays at ten am Eastern on Apple car Play and

582
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand

583
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

584
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: With Radio Malex Deel Longside Emily, who just got a

585
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: nice dose of Supreme Court awesomeness on her Friday. She

586
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: helps me out. Paulsmini sitting on a beach off today.

587
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg Intelligence. We bring you all the top

588
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: news in business and finance and economics. There are lens

589
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: of our Bloomberg Intelligence analysts. They cover two thousand companies

590
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: and one hundred and thirty industries worldwide. Let's go to

591
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: one of them right now, Nathan, Dean, Bloomberg Intelligence Senior

592
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: policy analysts. Lots of stuff happening in DC. We are

593
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: keeping an eye on those Supreme Court decisions, but we

594
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: cannot lose sight of the complete disaster that was yesterday

595
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: and that debate between President Trump and President Biden. I

596
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: think the big question today, Nathan, is what does it

597
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 2: look like to get Biden off the ticket? Like legally,

598
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: how does that actually happen?

599
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 11: So it's going to have to come from the President himself.

600
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 11: I mean, this is going to be a decision that

601
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 11: he's going to have to make, and I think that,

602
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,719
Speaker 11: you know, we'll see over the weekend as he's fundraising

603
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 11: and meeting with advisors. But as of this morning, he

604
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 11: was even saying to journalists that he is going to

605
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 11: be on the ticket and he's looking forward to a

606
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 11: second debate in September. Now, the way would work is

607
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 11: that if President Biden were to decide that he's not

608
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 11: going to run, then we go to the convention and

609
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 11: the delegates would have to figure it out.

610
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 3: Now.

611
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 11: President Biden already has enough delegates to secure it in

612
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 11: the nomination, but if he were to say I'm not

613
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 11: going to run, he could release those delegates to then

614
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 11: vote for whoever. But ultimately then it would become a

615
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 11: race of who wants to be the nominee for three

616
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 11: months before the election and trying to take down President Trump.

617
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 11: It's gonna be very messy. You would have Kamala Harris

618
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 11: the vice president. You have a lot of governors probably

619
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 11: thinking about it. But if this were to happen, and

620
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 11: it would happens soon, it's gonna be something that we

621
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 11: haven't seen since Lyndon Johnson in nineteen sixty eight.

622
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 5: Nathan, how soon must a decision be made? It's almost July.

623
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 5: Biden doesn't seem to have a lot of time here.

624
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 11: No, so, but he does have the advantage that the

625
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 11: Democrats are going second in terms of the conventions, So

626
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 11: the Republicans are meeting in July fifteenth, the Democrats aren't

627
00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 11: meeting until August, so really before the convention, there's a

628
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 11: lot of bit of time in terms of least the

629
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 11: logistics of getting on the ballot. If this were to

630
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 11: happen after the election, Essentially Democrats would have to go

631
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 11: to the polls and vote for Joe Biden, knowing that

632
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 11: they would get somebody else. But if President Biden were

633
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 11: to decide tomorrow that he's decided he's not going to run,

634
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 11: you're going to see a scramble amongst the Democratic Party

635
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 11: to try and figure out, Okay, is Kamala Harris the

636
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 11: next nominee. You know, she doesn't pulling, She isn't pulling

637
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 11: all that well against President Trump on a one on

638
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 11: one race. You know, is Governor Newsome, Governor Pritzker, Governor Whitmer.

639
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 11: You know, the governors I think would be able to

640
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 11: put their hands up there and say we're interested. So

641
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 11: you would almost have like this like uh, you know

642
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 11: reality TV show, if you will, trying to fre exactly.

643
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 11: And then ultimately it comes down to a vote in Chicago,

644
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 11: which you know the last time, you know, you know,

645
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 11: Chicago obviously doesn't have the best reputation when it comes

646
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 11: to democratic conventions and open conventions, but you know, it

647
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 11: would be quite a show in August.

648
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 2: Hey, Nathan, what.

649
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 4: Do you think is realistically going to happen?

650
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 11: So look, this decision is going to come from President

651
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 11: Biden and President Biden himself. I mean, it is extremely

652
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 11: difficult for a politician, Republican or Democrat, who has served

653
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 11: their entire life and is used to being a fighter

654
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 11: to then say, you know what, I'm going to take

655
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 11: a step back and it's time for me to move on.

656
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 11: And so you know, we've seen this with a lot

657
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 11: of other politicians, both in Congress and you know, the

658
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 11: executive branch. Now, I think it comes down to two things. One,

659
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 11: if President Biden believes that last night was just because

660
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 11: of the cold and that he can then change the

661
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 11: narrative in the next few months, he's going to stay in.

662
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 11: If there's something more serious that President Biden begins to

663
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 11: believe that there is something that you know, that this

664
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 11: is an issue, then I think eventually we may say

665
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 11: we're going to step out.

666
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 4: All right, Nathan, we got to leave it there.

667
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that, Nathan Dean Bloomberg Intelligence

668
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: Senior Policy Analystic.

669
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live

670
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: weekdays at ten am Eastern on applecard Play and and

671
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 1: royd Otto with the Bloomberg Business at You can also

672
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station.

673
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

674
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: We do want to keep you updated on the Supreme Court.

675
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: We did get run one ruling that's coming out. The

676
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: US Supreme Court reinstated in Oregon city's law banning public camping,

677
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: and this is its first ruling on homelessness in about

678
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: four decades. We're going to get you much more on

679
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: this with June Grasso in just a moment. Let's go

680
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 2: back to Nike and just the level of the stock

681
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 2: drop that we're seeing here.

682
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 4: Put him.

683
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 2: Goyle, Senior US e Commerce and retail analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence,

684
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: joins us. Now put him, I guess what would a

685
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: turnaround for this company at this point look like and

686
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 2: how long would something like that take?

687
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 7: Sure, So I think it's all product dependent. They have

688
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 7: introduced a new product as a recent and that product

689
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,439
Speaker 7: has done well, especially in their air franchise. I think

690
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 7: it's a matter of time. Nike really took its foot

691
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 7: off the pedal when it came to innovation since the pandemic,

692
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 7: and now it's just starting to push the pedal harder.

693
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 7: It won't happen overnight. We think it's going to take

694
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 7: at least six to twelve months. So this year their

695
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 7: fiscal twenty twenty five will be a wash year. It

696
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 7: will be down, and I think we will have to

697
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 7: look past that in another six months. But I do

698
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 7: think the Nike has the ability to bring back innovation.

699
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 7: It is the largest at leisure brand, and while it

700
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 7: has lost shared at Hooka on and Running and Adidas

701
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 7: in the lifestyle category, if they can get the right

702
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 7: product out, they can do well. Their dunks for a

703
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 7: huge success, but they need more.

704
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 5: Can you talk about how much of the movement that

705
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 5: we're seeing in Nike today has to do with company

706
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 5: specific news and how much of it has to do

707
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 5: with traders kind of telling us a signal about the

708
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 5: consumer maybe being weaker than perhaps the numbers that we

709
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 5: got this morning, the ego data that we got this morning,

710
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 5: suggesting sure.

711
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 7: I would say that the bulk of the move that

712
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 7: you're seeing today is company specific, it's not the macro.

713
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 7: When I look at the at leisure space, there's a

714
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 7: lot of tailwinds in there, especially the sporting events. We

715
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 7: have the paras Olympics coming up, and there is still

716
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 7: brand Heat for sports to be outdoors. That provides a

717
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 7: benefit to these at leisure brands. So I'd say, while

718
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 7: the consumer is being picky and they're choosy, they're still

719
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 7: spending where they want to spend and if you have

720
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 7: the product, they will come to you.

721
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: But nevertheless, why is it going so poorly? Like they

722
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: want to sell direct to consumer and like not do

723
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: the retail stores as much. But even that strategy didn't work.

724
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: I mean, how do they fix a problem that has

725
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: so many tentacles.

726
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 7: The problem is at the core. The problem is at

727
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 7: the product. So if they can fix the product, I

728
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 7: think the problems almost resolve in themselves. It's not that

729
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 7: Nike has lost its brand Heat. They still in basketball

730
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 7: are the most preferred brand, They have the best sports flares,

731
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 7: they have the highest endorsers. It's really in lifestyle where

732
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 7: they're struggling and they've lost here, and you could say

733
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 7: in running too. Those are the two categories that they

734
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 7: need to bring forward more innovation. So I think the

735
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 7: answer to their problem is product. It's innovation and Nike

736
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 7: just needs to qush harder. And we'll have to watch

737
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 7: execution to see over the next six months if they

738
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 7: can really deliver on what they're promising.

739
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: So Emily, Wait, so you do have Nike's or you don't.

740
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 2: It's the Adidas ones that you don't have. The Zambas

741
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 2: you don't have.

742
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 5: I don't have the Sambus, but it really is incredible.

743
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 5: I mean I like to think that I follow like

744
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 5: sneaker trends, and the Adidas Szambus is a lifestyle sneaker

745
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 5: that is so popular and has really driven a lot

746
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 5: of Adidas's growth. Punam are you saying that Nike kind

747
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 5: of has to come up with a product similar to that,

748
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 5: kind of a product that everyone on the street is

749
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,439
Speaker 5: I guess obsessed with and wants to wear.

750
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 6: Yeah.

751
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 7: Absolutely, and they did right. They had the Air Forces,

752
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 7: which were a life style shoe. They had their Dungks,

753
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 7: which became a lifestyle shoe.

754
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 9: But they need more.

755
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 7: They need to continue to keep innovating because now they're

756
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 7: camping those tough comparisons and they just need more innovation.

757
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 7: So it's really really getting the product right here.

758
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 2: I just like, how much more can you innovate a sneaker?

759
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 4: Like?

760
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 2: I mean, this is such a dumb question. I don't

761
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 2: we're sneakers I have a weird foot. I gotta wear bionics,

762
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 2: like you know, my feet are old feet. But I mean,

763
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 2: how hard is it to innovate a sneaker?

764
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 7: Well, I mean the palm was not really that innovative, right,

765
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 7: I mean I grew up wearing salm as of the kids.

766
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 7: So it's about just getting people comfortable and getting the

767
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 7: trend right, getting the look right, to feel right, and

768
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 7: being where the customer is and really bringing your brand

769
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 7: forward with those customers. Look, Nike is still the largest

770
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 7: active were brand, It's still the dominant player in sneakers,

771
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,439
Speaker 7: and Hoka and On are very small compared to Nike,

772
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 7: so when they grow double digits, it's a small fraction

773
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 7: of what Nike's sales are. So as I really do

774
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 7: think that they can. They can bring something forward and

775
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 7: really do well. If they get the product, and remember

776
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 7: they also have to endorse the product right, the product

777
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 7: could come out. But then they need athletes, they need celebrities,

778
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 7: They need influencers to make that product develop grand heat

779
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 7: and catch steam into the marketplace, because that's how it works,

780
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 7: that's how products selve.

781
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, they need Emlin Graffeto. I think it's cool like

782
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 2: her and all her buddies. She's going to be like,

783
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 2: my cool like person.

784
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 4: Like who knows supports?

785
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: You have weird feed Emily, what is it?

786
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 9: It's a life changing event with your sneaker or lifestyle, a.

787
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: Life lifestyle sneakers like her, not her, she can't wear those,

788
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 2: but like it's just like that's what all her cool

789
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: friends wear. I have planner fasciitis, like you wear to

790
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 2: hang out as opposed to a running sneaker.

791
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 5: That's going to look more like.

792
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 2: A John has two pairs of shoes.

793
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 4: So let's just keep that in mind.

794
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live

795
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: weekdays at ten am met on applecar Play and Android

796
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: Auto with a Bloomberg business. You can also listen live

797
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station just

798
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: say Alexa playing Bloomberg eleven thirty.

799
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: All right, let's get to what's happening in the bond market.

800
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 2: You're right, yields have moved higher despite the fact we

801
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: got that PCE that seemed to be interpreted as okay,

802
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: the Fed can cut It's okay. Inflation is coming down,

803
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 2: spending an income is hanging in Okay, Danielle de Martino

804
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: Booth is CEO and chief strategist for QI Research. Hey,

805
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 2: what was your interpretation, Danielle about the data and then

806
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: what we're seeing in the bond market right now.

807
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 12: So, you know, a thanks for having me this morning.

808
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 12: It's great to be with you again. And this is

809
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 12: a real head scratcher for me. You know, unrounded zero

810
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 12: point zero eight percent increase in the core the Fed's

811
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 12: year end target is two point eight percent for the

812
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 12: core PCE, it's down to two point six percent. Same

813
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 12: with its unemployment target for the end of the year

814
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 12: four point z z or percent.

815
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 9: That's where the unemployment rate is right now.

816
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 12: So it would seem to be, you know, a green

817
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 12: light for the Fed to cut rates here. And we

818
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 12: had University of Michigan see an appreciable decline in inflation

819
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 12: expectations in both the short.

820
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 9: And long term.

821
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 12: So go figure on why bond yields are up. That's

822
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 12: my honest answer here.

823
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 5: So what about when you look to the rest of

824
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 5: the year, we're just at the halfway mark. What do

825
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 5: you really see is going to be drying the cross

826
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 5: asset market action, So you know.

827
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 12: There's a real tug of war there are a lot

828
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 12: of good observations being made right now. But the K

829
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 12: shaped economy, the haves and the have nots. You see

830
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 12: that when you get the second print for the University

831
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 12: of Michigan, and that you get tersiles of income broken out,

832
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 12: and you see that there's a lot of anxiety among

833
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 12: the lowest income earners. We've got an institutional client at

834
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 12: QI who was saying that a Tampa food bank is

835
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 12: on from twenty thousand to forty thousand per month households,

836
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 12: that it's serving that a lot of these nonprofits are

837
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 12: just overwhelmed.

838
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 9: With the amount of demand.

839
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,439
Speaker 12: As we're seeing again, the difference between twenty twenty three

840
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 12: and twenty twenty four is twenty twenty three, we're really

841
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 12: white collar layoffs six to nine months of severance.

842
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 9: And then you hear from the likes of Walgreens.

843
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 12: Yesterday, you know, up to maybe sixty thousand jobs in

844
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 12: peril there with all of those stores closing these types

845
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 12: of job cuts.

846
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 9: The people who lose their jobs only get six to

847
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 9: nine weeks of severance. So it's a huge difference.

848
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 2: So fair enough, Okay, So if we just sort of

849
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 2: go with yield, are doing stuff, we're end of the

850
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: second quarter, so things are moving, et cetera. Do you

851
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 2: think the data that we got today can green light

852
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 2: a cut from the FED? And when do you think

853
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: that could be green lit?

854
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 9: I do.

855
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 12: We have seen revisions out of the state of California

856
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 12: that show that net job losses through the second half

857
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 12: of twenty twenty three, the last six months of twenty

858
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 12: three were negative. We're going to get several revisions out

859
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 12: of the Census Bureau for payrolls before even the July

860
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 12: FED meeting, and certainly a very large one in August

861
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 12: before the September meeting. So I'm looking at September as

862
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 12: the definitive launch date for FED rate cuts.

863
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 5: Does the equity market need a rate cut in September?

864
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 5: Because here we are, we're at all time highs today

865
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 5: and we still have, you know, yields moving a little

866
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 5: bit higher. But I'm just wondering if we don't get

867
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 5: that cut, maybe it's pushed out even further, maybe into

868
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 5: twenty twenty five. Does it tank stocks you think? Or

869
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 5: are we able to kind of stay here at these

870
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,399
Speaker 5: all time highs and continue chugging along for the rest

871
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 5: of the year.

872
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 12: I think the stock market does hang in there. Historically speaking,

873
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 12: until the FED actually cuts rates, stocks are very well behaved.

874
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 12: It's only after the FED actually makes that rate cut,

875
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 12: no jaw boning, no quantitative tightening or quantitative using, but

876
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 12: actual rate cuts that start, then you see stocks correct.

877
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 9: Then you see stocks decline.

878
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 12: And that's again historically back in the post war era,

879
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 12: how the script is played out.

880
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 2: Hey, Danielle, walk us through what you're expecting for jobs

881
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 2: Friday next week, so we get the PCE. It seems

882
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 2: to be okay. The infleetion story seems to be adjusting right,

883
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 2: that super core is coming down. The data this week

884
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 2: was very lumpy, not great, particularly when it comes to housing.

885
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 2: You heard Mary Daily talking about worries about growth for example,

886
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 2: and we had also worries about are we actually restrictive

887
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 2: enough and if we're not, then that could really spur

888
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 2: more growth issues. What reflection do you think we're going

889
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,439
Speaker 2: to get in that in the jobs from number next week?

890
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 12: So I would be surprised, just on a pure databasis

891
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 12: if we didn't see a little bit more weakness at

892
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 12: the margin in the jobs data. The survey week for

893
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 12: non farm hayrolls did see an uptick in both initial

894
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 12: and continuing claims. Continuing claims in that survey week rising

895
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 12: to the highest since twenty twenty one, and that is

896
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 12: when the survey data are collected by their Buer of

897
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 12: Labor statistics. So I would expect to see this weakness

898
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 12: again a lot of the layoffs we're seeing. The reason

899
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 12: we're seeing the four week moving average and initial jobless

900
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 12: claims steadily march upward over the last few months is

901
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 12: because the people who are losing their jobs get a

902
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 12: very short period of pay from their former employer before

903
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 12: they're filing that initial jobless claim.

904
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 9: We're seeing that of very steadily rise this year.

905
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 5: So that's the macro I want to go super micro maybe,

906
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 5: and we don't have that much time left, Danielle, But

907
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 5: what do you make of the volatility in these pet stocks?

908
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 5: After Roaring Kitty comes on Twitter he posts a picture

909
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 5: of a dog. I mean, just talk about what does

910
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 5: this tell you about the market that we're in that

911
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 5: we're still seeing He didn't even mention pet COO, and

912
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 5: yet the stock kind of went crazy after his tweet.

913
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 12: So again, I think this goes back to the point

914
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 12: that I made earlier, and that would be one that

915
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 12: we have not seen any capitulation in this stock market.

916
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 12: The fervor to speculate is still very much alive, what

917
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 12: we call animal spirits.

918
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 9: It's still out there.

919
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 12: People are still ready to gamble on the stock market,

920
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 12: as if the pandemic just hit the shores. So it

921
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 12: again shows you that there's a great, big willingness to

922
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:34,399
Speaker 12: take risk.

923
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: Well said Emily's quoting you right now for an article.

924
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 2: She was very excited to ask you that question. Yeah,

925
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 2: and then you need it's too much liquidity. It's a

926
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 2: lot of cool liquidity out there, even if that upside

927
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 2: didn't continue into today. All right, Danielle, We really appreciate

928
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: Danielle de Martino, Booth CEO and chief strategist for a

929
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 2: QI Research, joining us there.

930
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast, available on Apples, Spotify,

931
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 1: and anywhere else you will get your podcasts. Listen live

932
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: each weekday ten am tonoon Eastern on Bloomberg dot com,

933
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business app.

934
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube

935
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: and always on the Bloomberg terminal