1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Iheartradios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: And today I think we're bringing kind of a sequel episode, 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: but a sequel to multiple prequels. What streams are coming 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: together on this one? All right? Well, for starters, we're 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: following up on a previous episode we did about quetzal Quadal. 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: This was an episode that dealt with this, this deity 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 1: of pre Columbian Mesoamerican traditions, this plumed serpent being and 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: and and in that episode we discussed, uh, you know, 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: the the myths surrounding it, the tradition surrounding it, as 12 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: well as its ties into paleontology, with the with the 13 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: the prehistoric quote so Koatlas which is named for this deity, right, 14 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, just recently in town at the fern Bank 15 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: Science Museum they had an exhibit on pterosaurs. Of course, 16 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: kettl Coatlas is you know the greatest. Yeah, well, I 17 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: think there may actually have been there was some dispute 18 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: about this while I was there. There may be indications 19 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: of a larger one, but Yeah, the Ketzl Coatless has 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: long at least been understood to be the largest known 21 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: of the pterosaurs. Yeah, so big that there have at 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: times been competing theories as to whether it actually flew 23 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: or if it just shambled around like, you know, this 24 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: big walking winged creature and just scavenge from the you know, 25 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: the seaside. But they had a like full model and 26 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: full cast of this creature there up in the air, 27 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: where you could, you know, compare your own puny, delicious 28 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: body to this powerful predator that would have sorry to 29 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: get sidetracked. The thing about those pterosaurs that's most terrifying 30 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: is not what they look like when they're in flying posture, 31 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: but how they walk. You know, this is a thing 32 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 1: that we we've come to understand more over time, because 33 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: there used to be this debate about what exactly their 34 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: their locomotion would look like when they weren't in flight. 35 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: Would they just crawl on vertical surfaces or something. But 36 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: now we have a pretty good idea of how Pterosaurus 37 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: generally walked around on flat ground, and it just looks awful. 38 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: It just looks like, you know, this weird, jumbly membranous 39 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: robot it's it's amazing. You should look it up. So 40 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: that was a case where we had, you know, a 41 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: later fossil find and then they named the species after 42 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: this Mesoamerican serpent got But we didn't get into any 43 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: actual fossil connections beyond that. In other episodes, though, we 44 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: have discussed this idea of geo mythology. We've we've we've 45 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: devoted whole episodes to generally looking at some sort of 46 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: mythological monster and saying, you know, asking the obvious question, 47 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: a question that people have been asking for it for 48 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: quite a while. Were these ideas of be it dragons 49 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: or or cyclops is, whatever, But were they Were they 50 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: inspired by fossils that were discovered by ancient people? Yeah? 51 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: Was it pure imagination or was it based on something 52 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: they'd seen? And if it was based on something they'd seen, 53 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: was it, you know, an exaggerated account of a live 54 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: animal or maybe a misinterpretation of bones or fossils that 55 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: had been made from the bones of long dead creatures. 56 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: And it's not hard at all to see how, say 57 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: a dragon might be inspired by the skull of a dinosaur, 58 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: you know, especially like maybe a large theropod dinosaur imagine 59 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: coming across that when you didn't know there was such 60 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: a thing as dinosaurs. And there are many ways that 61 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: the geological features of fossils can make them seem especially 62 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: mystical and like they're some kind of monster with supernatural properties. 63 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: A great example of this is given that this was 64 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,839 Speaker 1: in our last discussion where we talked about the work 65 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: of Adrian Mayer, who's going to come up again in 66 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: today's episode, and we'll brief you a bit more on 67 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: who she is in a moment, but we talked about 68 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: her book The First Fossil Hunters, Paleontology in Greek and 69 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: Roman Times, and one of the examples she talks about 70 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: in that book that I remember standing out of my 71 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: head was this interesting example that in some regions calcite 72 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: and selenite crystals form inside fossilized bones, which could have 73 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: been connected to tales of jim stones within dragon's heads. 74 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: So let's talk about Adrian Mayer. So born in nineteen 75 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: forty six, still active in the world today, Stanford University 76 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: historian of ancient science and a classical folklorist who specializes 77 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: in geo mythology, and she's written several books of interest, 78 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: including a twenty eighteen book on Gods and Robots in 79 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: Mythology all about Taylos, not all about Tailos, but Tailo's future. Yeah. 80 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: But you also probably remember us discussing her two thousand 81 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: book The First Fossil Hunter's Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times, 82 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: which deals with these very questions, you know, in the 83 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: ancient Greeks and depicting and imagining these various creatures. Were 84 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: they commenting on fossil finds? Yeah, And in that episode 85 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: we talked about a bunch of examples put forth by 86 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: Mayor where discovery of fossils by ancient people's could have 87 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: given rise to legends of mythical beasts. We just talked 88 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: about the dragon example, but a few others, like the 89 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: idea that legends of the fearsome griffin, you know, the 90 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: jealous gold hoarding creature with a lion's body and the 91 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: you know, the wings that creature of the Gobi Desert 92 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: could have been inspired by the discovery of Protoceratops fossils, 93 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: though we also discussed arguments against this connection, and another 94 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: one that was very popular was the idea that tales 95 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: of the Cyclops could have been inspired by elephant skulls, 96 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: which of course have this large single hollow or socket 97 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: in the center that could easily be mistaken for a 98 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: giant single eye socket in the middle of the face, 99 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: though it actually is the nasal cavity that connects to 100 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: the trunk. But she also turned her attention to the 101 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: world of the plume serpent in her two thousand and 102 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: five book Fossil Legends of the First Americans. So in 103 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: this she points out that pre Columbian Aztec codeses and 104 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: Inca traditions describe the remains or seam in her estimation 105 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: to describe the remains of mammoths and other creatures from 106 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: the past, including giant birds. And of course this is 107 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: where we come back to Quetzalquadal, because Quetzequadal again is 108 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: generally depicted as this great serpent with feathers, this reptilian 109 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: being that is also bird like. And it's really kind 110 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: of surprising looking back on it that we didn't actually 111 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: explore this avenue because it makes so much sense, right, Like, 112 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: you're talking about this amorphous idea, and all generally, all 113 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,799 Speaker 1: ideas in mythology over the landscape of time are amorphous. 114 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: They shift this way and that but essentially this sounds 115 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: like a good lineup rather well with terosaar remains or 116 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: even the remains of non flying u dinosaurs. You know, 117 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: any kind of a sauropod, you could you could you 118 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: could latch onto any of these, any evidence of some 119 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: sort of great creature, and low and behold here is 120 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: the evidence of quetzel Cotal. Yes, though, the the link 121 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: between fossils and the possible inspiration of the plume serpent 122 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: being like kutzel Caudal is not the only, UH, say, 123 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: meso American or South American example where we have a 124 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: pretty good idea that bones of large creatures could have 125 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: inspired belief in supernatural beings. A big example that comes 126 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: in with UH with meso American and South American mythology 127 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: is the belief in giants. Yes, and there's a yeah, 128 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: there's there's an interesting history there and one that that 129 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: Mayer spends a lot of time with. So she points 130 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: out that after Cortes arrived in the New World, the 131 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: tlexical Teca people aligned with him against their enemies, the Aztecs, 132 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: and they they brought the conquistodo or gigantic bones, and 133 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: they told him the story of how their ancestors had 134 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: found these lands filled with these evil giants, and that 135 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: they subsequently vanquished most of them, and the survivors were 136 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: eventually just too few to continue and died out. And look, 137 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: here are the bones that are proof of this story. Yeah, 138 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: I actually wanted to read from a first hand account 139 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: of what happened at this event. This is a first 140 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: hand account by Bernal Diaz de Castillo, one of the 141 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: Spanish conquistadors who was working under Cortes. Now, keep in 142 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: mind anything what we read here is just Castillo's version 143 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: of the story, written many years after the fact, and 144 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: it's very possible he's not remembering everything accurately or not 145 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: understanding or reporting correctly. But this first hand account is 146 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: what we have here. So he's speaking to some of 147 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: the tlexical take up people and he's asking them, quote, 148 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: how it was that they came to inhabit that land, 149 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: and from what direction had they come? And how was 150 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: it that they differed so much from and were so 151 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: hostile to the Mexicans, as he's referring to the Aztecs, 152 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: seeing that their countries were so close to one another. Quote, 153 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: they said that their ancestors had told them that in 154 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: times past there had lived among them men and women 155 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: of giant size, with huge bones. And because they were 156 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: very bad people of evil manners, that they had fought 157 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: with them and killed them, and those of them who 158 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: had remained died off. So that we could see how 159 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: huge and tall these people had been, they brought us 160 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: a leg bone of one of them, which was very 161 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: thick and the height of a man of ordinary stature. 162 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: And that was the bone from the hip to the knee. 163 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 1: I measured myself against it, and it was as tall 164 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: as I am, although I am of fair size. I 165 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: wonder if he's getting a little defensive there. I'm not 166 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: that short. They brought other bones, or they brought other 167 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: pieces of bones like the first, but they were already 168 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: eaten away and destroyed by the soil. We were all 169 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: amazed at seeing those bones, and felt sure that there 170 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: must have been giants in this country. And our captain 171 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: Cortes said to us that it would be well to 172 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: send that great bone to Castile, so that his Majesty 173 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: might see it. So we sent it with the first 174 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: of our agents who went there. So I'd love to 175 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: know what happened with that bone. But apparently that's a 176 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: that's a sad mystery that doesn't turn out well. Yeah. 177 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: Mayor writes that she tried to track it down and 178 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: and couldn't couldn't quite find it. But she points out 179 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: that this this myth, and this was account of the myth. 180 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: You know, it does reveal, you know, an understanding of 181 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: several things, reveals an understanding of extinction. For example, right 182 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: that is, sufficiently reduced population is doomed. It's just not 183 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: going to bounce back. So they didn't have to kill 184 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: all of the giants. If they just reduced the population enough, 185 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: the giants died out naturally. Yeah. And she also points out, yeah, 186 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: that those bones presented by the flax Callteca were sent 187 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: back to Spain apparently, though there seems no surviving record 188 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: of them after that. However, based on later fossils sent 189 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: back to Spain and those displayed in Cortes Palace there 190 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: in Mexico, we can judge that these were probably mammoth bones. 191 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: Like it seems, it's not even a you know, it's 192 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: a very safe guess. I'm interested by this phenomenon of 193 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: people seeing bones of large extinct megafauna and not just 194 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: not knowing what they were, but concluding that there's some 195 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: form of human you know, and obviously this is not 196 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: just the conclusion reached by the talexical Teca people. This 197 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: is like a widespread I mean, the Spanish seemed to 198 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: think the same thing. Yeah, I mean, part of it 199 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: is by virtue of our modern understanding of fossils and 200 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: the ascent of man and knowing exactly what sort of 201 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,719 Speaker 1: humanoid and primate creatures lived that we know lived in 202 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: prehistoric times. But and then on the other side, it's like, 203 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: all we all have stories of giants. The Europeans brought 204 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: with them, the Spanish brought with them knowledge of stories 205 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: of giants. No, the Spanish they totally believed in giants. Yeah, 206 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: it's kind of it's crazy that all the things that 207 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: are not lining up with Cortes here. This is a 208 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: doomed scenario, and we should really drive remind everyone that 209 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: Cortes is a destroyer here in this encounter. But this 210 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: is like one thing that they instantly both have in 211 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: common is the belief in giants. So Mayor writes that 212 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: Father Jose de Acosta, who lived fifteen thirty nine through 213 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: sixteen hundred, traveled to Mexico and recorded native oral histories, 214 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: and when he spoke to the pleax Cauteca, they described 215 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: the giants of old as beings that dwelt in caves 216 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: and used great clubs and wooden swords. They quote pulled 217 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: down trees as if they had been stalks of lettuces, 218 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: and Mayer argues that this brings to mind the behavior 219 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: of elephants and that the giants again might be essentially 220 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: ancestral memories of the Colombian mammoths that definitely lived in 221 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: the area that we definitely have the fossil evidence of 222 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: see evidence of in the fossils displayed in Cortez Palace. 223 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: That it's kind of through the telephone game of oral 224 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 1: tradition and the remaining fossil evidence of their bones. Like 225 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: this is the giants, the giant mythology that remains, right, 226 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: so we know that these giant extinct mammals did stretch 227 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: in the range as far south as like Central America, right, yeah, 228 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: as far south as Costa Rica. I think I was 229 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: reading and up into the northern United States, though then again, 230 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: I do think, I mean I wonder about that. I mean, 231 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: that is a long time for a legend like that 232 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: to persist even in altered form. The Colombian mammoth, which 233 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: was the species that would have spread that far south right, 234 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: the willy mammoth was a further north species. So the 235 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: Colombian mammoth, this huge being, went extinct probably like ten 236 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: to eleven thousand years ago. We think, certainly not impossible 237 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: for you know, elements of myth to exist across that 238 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: time span. But I wouldn't let too much hinge on 239 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: that in friends, because that's a long time. A lot 240 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: can happen, certainly from the human standpoint, and that did 241 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: that amount of time. Yeah. It's also worth pointing out 242 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: that it wasn't just the tlexical Teca. The Inca also 243 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: had tales of ancestral victories over giants. In this case, 244 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: though the giants were destroyed by fire from heaven. Oh yeah. 245 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: So these myths were recorded in One of the places 246 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: they were recorded was in a source in the sixteenth century. 247 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: One of these was by Sieza de Leone in the 248 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: Chronicle of Peru, published in fifteen fifty three. So the 249 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: people telling this story were people living in I think 250 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: it was Peru at the time modern Ecuador, who told 251 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: stories about how their ancestors in ancient times had been 252 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: invaded by these people from the sea, who were evil 253 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: and destructive giants, who landed at a point called Point 254 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: Santa Elena in what's now Ecuador. And I want to 255 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: read from Siza de Leone's record of the stories that 256 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: were told to him by the native peoples. He says, quote, 257 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: they arrived on the coast in boats made of reeds 258 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: as big as large ships, a party of men of 259 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: such size that from the knee downwards, their height was 260 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: as great as the entire height of an ordinary man, 261 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: though he might be of good stature. So this yet again, 262 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: it's like part of the leg is as tall as 263 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: a guy, even though he's pretty tall. Right, they're making 264 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: it clear. Yeah, Their limbs were all in proportion to 265 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: the deformed size of their bodies, and it was a 266 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: monstrous thing to see their heads with hair reaching to 267 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: the shoulders. Their eyes were as large as small plates. 268 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: They had no beards, and were dressed in the skins 269 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: of animals others, only in the dress which nature gave them. 270 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: And they had no women with them. And then so 271 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: SiZ Leone goes on to tell more about the story 272 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: of the conflict between the people and these giants. SiZ 273 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: Leone does not strike me as a great narrator. He 274 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: kind of disparages the people who were telling him the story. 275 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: He refers to their vulgarity and says that they're prone 276 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: to exaggeration. So I think he's got a patronizing attitude, 277 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: it seems like here. But he also embellishes their account 278 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: by adding Christian theological material to it. So later on 279 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: he says, quote, all the natives declare that God, our Lord, 280 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: brought upon them a punishment in proportion to the enormity 281 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: of their offense. And he's talking about the giants. Here, 282 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: A fearful and terrible fire came down from heaven with 283 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: a great noise, out of the midst of which there 284 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: issued a shining angel with a glittering sword, with which, 285 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: at one blow they were all killed, and the fire 286 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: consumed them. There only remained a few bones and skulls, 287 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: which God allowed to remain without being consumed by the fire, 288 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: as a memorial of this punishment. So that's interesting. There's 289 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: this idea that some bones are left for us to see, 290 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: and so what about these bones? Well, Adrian Mayer writes 291 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: about this in her account. She says that in fifteen 292 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: four three there was a deputy governor of Trujillo named 293 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: Juan day Almost who decided to investigate these stories about 294 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: the extinct giants and their bones by conducting a paleontological excavation. 295 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: So that's pretty interesting, right, we got the sixteenth century 296 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: here and they're trying to excavate the bones of extinct beings. Yeah, 297 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: essentially engaging in paleontology. Which is one of Mayor's frequent 298 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: points is that is that when when you're engaging with 299 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: these fossils and you're trying to figure out what they 300 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: were and how to fit into history, even you know, 301 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: even though you're dealing with, say, you know, a version 302 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: of history that is influenced by mythology and perhaps even 303 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: the mythology of some you know, conquerors who have just arrived, 304 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: then that you're still engaged in the exercise of trying 305 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: to understand fossils. Yeah, and that's what one day Almost 306 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: was apparently doing. So. Mayor writes that Almost and as workers, 307 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: they went and they dug up pits in this valley 308 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: that they'd been directed to by the name of People's 309 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: where the giants had been reportedly destroyed or put down 310 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: by this angel from heaven or where they'd been consumed 311 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: by the fire, put down by this being from the sky. 312 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: And then so they apparently found some things. They found 313 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: skulls that seemed to look sort of human. And remember 314 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 1: again the comparison between like the idea of the cyclops 315 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: and the giant elephant skulls. Yeah, yeah, like it is 316 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: unlike so many you know, large herbivore skulls, the elephant's 317 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: sull does not look you know, it's not a long skull. 318 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: It is not like the skull of a deer or 319 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: even like a hippo or something. It does seem to 320 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: have like the vertical alignment of a primate skull. So 321 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: then again, these these bones were found to not be 322 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: exactly human in proportion, and this was explained away by 323 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: the fact that, well, in the story, these giants, you know, 324 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: they've got all these deformities. You know, that's almost like 325 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: an indication of their monstrousness, which is sort of a 326 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,959 Speaker 1: self fulfilling prophecy. Right, we're looking for human shaped thing 327 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: that aren't correctly human shaped because they were monsters. Therefore, 328 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: when the things aren't correctly human shaped, almost can can conclude, yeah, okay, 329 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: we found the bones of giants here, and apparently they 330 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: did so that you know, they dug up these bones. 331 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: They said, yep, looks like there were giants, and Mayor 332 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: points out it points to other sources as well on this, 333 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: such as leading Mexican archaeologist doctor Leonardo Lopez Lujon, who 334 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: backs up the notion that Mesoamerican myths of giants and 335 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: ogres originated in at least the discovery of fossil remains 336 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: without getting into the sort of oral history the thing. 337 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: But I should probably add like, there's there's the there's 338 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: the oral history of the creatures, but then there's just 339 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: the oral history of finding the fossils, right, And I 340 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: think that's that's probably more what we're talking about here. 341 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: You know, somebody found these bones once and maybe they 342 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: kept the bones, maybe they didn't, But there is the 343 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: story of the encounter and then the subsequent interpretation of 344 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: what the bones mean. Okay, I think maybe we should 345 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: take a quick break. We'll be right back with more. 346 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: All right, we're back, so you know, I want to 347 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: drive home that and we're talking about Quetzalcotal and some 348 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 1: of these other traditions. You know that there's there's a 349 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: lot we don't know about these cultures. Again, Cortes and 350 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: those who came after him, they were a destroying force. 351 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: They were conquerors. They brought with them death and disease 352 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: and uh and and and and often cases like a willingness, 353 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: like a a an intent to destroy the culture of 354 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: the people that they subjugated. Yeah, and did that in 355 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 1: many cases through literally destroying written records. Right, So you know, 356 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: there're luckily some things survived, but so much was destroyed. 357 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: We're talking about the in the meso American world initially 358 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: like like seven hundred years ago. And and yet, as 359 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: is often pointed out in case was pointed out by 360 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: a University of New Mexico's professor David M. Johnson, that 361 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: we know more about Athens, Greece of two thousand years ago, 362 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: or we know more about Hebraic traditions of three thousand 363 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: years ago, than we know about meso America seven hundred 364 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: years ago, because mainly of the destruction of the conquistatory. Yeah, 365 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: the destruction that they wrought on the cultures, the destruction 366 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,239 Speaker 1: of codeses that the Aztecs and the Maya kept, and 367 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: on top of this, the hieroglyphic style books of the Aztecs. 368 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: You know that they were there to aid in the 369 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: memorization of oral literature. So you know that with you know, 370 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: you're so you're destroying it on both ends. If you're 371 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: destroying the culture that that that retains the oral tradition, 372 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: but then you're also destroying the books that enabled it 373 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: to begin with. You know. So it's it's often a 374 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: taxing exercise to try and reassemble you know what some 375 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: of these stories and traditions actually were. But Quetzelkotal, as 376 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: we discussed in our previous episode, there they're basically like 377 00:21:54,880 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: two major different like Sagas off of It or him, 378 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,719 Speaker 1: they're sort of the more primal myths and then the 379 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: more humanoid myths. Yeah, that was the distinction. I remember, 380 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: sort of like the celestial Quetzalcaudal, like the creator being, 381 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: and then there's like the human version or the human embodiment, right, 382 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: and and ultimately I think that's something that that ended 383 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: up lining up a lot with sort of Christian traditions, 384 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: the idea of there being sort of a part one 385 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: that's very cosmic and and a little harder to grasp 386 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: and then a second part that's a little more human 387 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: and it's telling. But in both of these were like 388 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: a hero legend. Yeah, exactly. In both of these cases, though, 389 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: it's really important to drive home the quetzal Cotal was 390 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: was not like a like a bloodthirsty god. I think 391 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: sometimes there is this tendency to someone says as tag 392 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: god something, then you're going to instantly think about blood 393 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,479 Speaker 1: sacrifices or something like because of Q the Winged Serpent 394 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: the movie, right, you're going to think of that. But 395 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: quetzal Cotal was, by all the accounts we were looking at, 396 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: you know, this was a benign, benevolent, even entity. This 397 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: was a divine being that represented peace and not bloody 398 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 1: warfare or anything of the sort. So I just want 399 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: to drive that home before we continue here. And you're 400 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: probably wondering again, Okay, you're talking about giants, you're talking 401 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 1: about elephants, but what about quetzal Cootal. What does Mayor 402 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: write about the winged serpent? And she does mention him. Shoot, 403 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: she writes that in the Florentine Codex, which is the 404 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: sixteenth century ethnographic research study in Mesoamerica conducted by a 405 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: Spanish friar that the human quetzal Cootal was said to 406 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: stop to rest with his followers on a journey at 407 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: a place that was considered holy because quote the marks 408 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: which quetzal Cootal left upon the stone with his hands 409 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: when he rested there. When he sat down and he 410 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: supported himself on the rock by his hands, they sank deeply, 411 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: as if in mud. Did the palms of his hands 412 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: seek down. Likewise, his buttocks as they touched the rock 413 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: sank deeply. Wow, And the holy buttock marks, Yeah, of 414 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: the winged serpent. And the place was known as timk 415 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: Palco the impression of the hands. So we ultimately have 416 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: no current knowledge or evidence of this place, no further 417 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: descriptions or illustrations even in this codex. But Mayer suspects 418 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: they might have been quote a genuine track site, track 419 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: site being where we have the fossilized tracks of creatures, 420 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: a genuine track site of some extinct creature, or else. 421 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: There were carvings that resembled fossilized prints, perhaps made to 422 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 1: illustrate or commemorate an episode in the quetzel Cootal epic. 423 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: And I think the implication is in that case, you know, 424 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: it could be something if it was artificial, if it 425 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: was man made, it could have been inspired by actual 426 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: fossilized tracks that had been discovered, or she doesn't mention this, 427 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: but I mean, I can imagine it could be a 428 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: combination of the two, like the actual fossils that were 429 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: then embellish by humans that are interpreting it as being 430 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: part of a divine story. She also points out that 431 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: in terms of extinction, the Aztecs believed that there were 432 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 1: four previous ages that were destroyed by cataclysm, and the 433 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: survivors of these ages, monsters and giants were sometimes encountered 434 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: in subsequent ages, and Quetzelkota was said to have been created, 435 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: said to have created the bones of fifth age humans 436 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: by mixing blood with the ground bones of our fourth 437 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: age ancestors. So you know, there's already an emphasis on 438 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: bones here, and Mayor thinks it's suggestive of bone grinding 439 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: medicinal practices seen elsewhere among Native American peoples, but she 440 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: also stresses that she found nothing in the Spanish accounts 441 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: of Mesoamerican peoples regarding bone grinding practices. However, she does 442 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: point to a twentieth century practice in the village of Charcas, 443 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: on the northern border of the old Aztec Empire, famed 444 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: for its minds, The villagers collected large fossil bones known 445 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: as the and I apologize for my Spanish here koisos 446 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: diaspanto the bones of fear. Uh. These would have been 447 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: the bones of the old giant and the dell the 448 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: old giants that are now on the earth, and the 449 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: ground powder was used in a potion to calm anxiety 450 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: and fear. Wow. And she points out that this actually 451 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: lines up with the use of ground dragon bones in 452 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: Chinese traditional medicine and in the treatment of fossils by 453 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: European apothecaries. You know who would maybe of course, I 454 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: think we've discussed on stuff to blow your mind before 455 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: about the use of mummified remains by apothecaries, but also 456 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: fossil bones as well. Yeah, mummy paste. Wait a minute, 457 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: in the Chinese traditional medicine, what are the ground dragon bones? 458 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: What bones end up becoming supposedly dragon bones. I'm not 459 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: sure on that actually, but it does bring to mind 460 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: that we're perhaps talking about fossils here. Yeah, that's that. 461 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: We'll have to do a part three where we talk 462 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: about the use of fossils in Chinese traditional medicine and 463 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: Chinese folklore. I'm I'm offhand, I can't. I don't know 464 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: for sure if Mayor has has written about Chinese traditions 465 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: exclusively in any book, or perhaps that's an upcoming book. 466 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: All right, well, let's take one more break and we 467 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: come back. We will continue to discuss geo mythology and 468 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: quetzo quadal sor right, we're back. So last time we 469 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: talked about ketzl Quaddal, we obviously made the connection to 470 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 1: terosaur species because of the giant pterosaur ketzel Kowatlas, which 471 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: gets its name from this magnificent meso American god. So 472 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: I wonder, could there actually be any connection between terosaur 473 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: fossils and UH and the belief in a giant plumed 474 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: serpent god. On one hand, I would tend to assume 475 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: I don't know about that, because terosaurs are not really 476 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: They're not really serpentine, are they. That's true. And then, 477 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: of course another and this is a key thing that 478 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: we're always arguing, is that fossils are not necessary to 479 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 1: dream up these creatures like of course, as we discussed 480 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: in the questl cotal episode previously, like the God embodies 481 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: the snake and the bird. I mean, it's already embodying 482 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: natural creatures that inspire various ideas about the world, the cosmos, 483 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: and our role in it and our relationship with nature. 484 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: It's already this hybrid being and therefore like this special 485 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: kind of metaphor and human understanding. Yeah, and that's something 486 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: to keep in mind with all of these cases. You know, 487 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: geomethology is full of sort of interesting inferential hypotheses. In 488 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: most cases can be really hard to make a solid 489 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: case that yes, a you know, a mythical beast or 490 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: a legend or something from an ancient religion is definitely 491 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: inspired by geological facts geofacts like fossils, But you can 492 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: often kind of infer there's a good chance that something 493 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: like that could have happened, you just it's hard to 494 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: know for sure. Luckily Mayer does go into this, though 495 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: she does, she does explore the idea that, you know, 496 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: the question could actual winged fossil remains have influenced meso 497 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: American traditions and you know, of course there would there 498 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: would be no room for oral traditions of encountering these 499 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: creatures here. They would have been long extinct before the 500 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: first humans were around in this area. But of course 501 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,719 Speaker 1: that hasn't stopped some cryptozoologists, She points out to the claiming, uh, 502 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: you know otherwise. However, she does argue, oh no, that's well, no, 503 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: I was just thinking that crypto when cryptozoologists get involved. 504 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I don't want to not all 505 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: quote cryptozoologists are of the same caliber, right, But there's crypto. 506 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: This is something we I feel like we should explore. 507 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: There are there are certain scientific professionals. There are certain 508 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: scientists who have given a lot of thought to stuff 509 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: like you know, the yetti, and have done so in 510 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: a reasonable fashion and put the scientific exploration first. There are, 511 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: of course, more less scientifically based and more you know, 512 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: overly enthusiastic individuals out there who bear the cryptozoologists title. Well, 513 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: there are always going to be people who are excited 514 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: about stories of you know, any kind of interesting, unusual 515 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: being of any kind because it somehow feeds into their 516 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: fantastical worldview. I mean, I remember reading stories about how 517 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: these native traditions of extinct races of giants in ancient 518 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: meso America and in South America fed a lot of 519 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: kind of like theological speculation among European Christians. You know, 520 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: they'd read these stories and think, ah, this means something 521 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: about the nephilth. Yeah. Yeah, And you can imagine that 522 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: too if you were like the spear point of a 523 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: bloody uh you know, religious conquest of a new world, 524 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: and then you were you were you were learning about 525 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: their traditions of giants and there their belief in it. 526 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: It almost is uh. It reminds me of you know, 527 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: some of the ideas we've explored with witchcraft persecution, the 528 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: idea that that on some level part of the the 529 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: reason for it was because if you by by sort 530 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: of drawing these these stories out of the victims of 531 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: witchcraft persecution, you were creating proof for a supernatural realm 532 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: that that backed up your own, uh, failing religious ideas. 533 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: But that's kind of a whole discussion onto itself. But 534 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: any rate Mayor does and you know, she doesn't explore 535 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: cryptozoological ideas in this, but she does argue that the 536 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: thunderbird beliefs of North American native people's were likely inspired 537 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: by such fossils, and and she asked paleontologist James Clark, 538 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: who had worked with the northeastern Mexican terosaar fossils before 539 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: if if these remains would have been likely to elect 540 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: strong responses from ancient peoples, and he thought probably not. 541 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: And his reasoning was that, Okay, it's one thing to 542 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: see a fully as simple terrasaar at your local science 543 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: museum or in a you know, in a book, and 544 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: certainly if it's illustrated as a living creature. But when 545 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: you look at the actual fossil remains, and again this 546 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: is someone who'd worked with the actual terosaur fossil remains 547 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: from northeastern Mexico, he says, you end up looking at 548 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: this just jumble of bones. That's a really good point. 549 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: When you see the impressions of terosaur fossils in situ 550 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: as they're found, they're often you know, in say, the 551 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: former flat bed of a body of water, and the 552 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: indentations are just a tangled mess, right, And I think 553 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: a lot of this has to do in fact, often 554 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: bird bones are the same way when they get fossilized. 555 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: I think it has to do with the sort of 556 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: lightweight structure of the bones, the way they just kind 557 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: of get all collapsed together that they don't seem to 558 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: be as often articulated and in full body posture as 559 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: you might get with a larger animal with more solid bones. Yeah, 560 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: I mean can we can. We're easily spoiled sometimes by 561 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: the really nice fossil remains that we see with certain 562 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: certain fines and certain species where we see just a 563 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: like a like a complete or near complete vision of 564 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: what the creature looked like and how the bones were arranged. 565 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: But that is that is not all fossils. Yeah. The 566 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: the you know, the whole discipline of paleontology entails a 567 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: lot of reassembly of of of guesswork, and and generally 568 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: and often you know times as some of these even terosaurs, 569 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: we're dealing with creatures where we we have, you know, 570 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: far short of a complete fossil, sometimes even just a 571 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: single bone, and you're just having to to base everything 572 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: off off of that, extrapolate based on other fossil remains. Yeah. 573 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: And I think it's true of pterosaurs, especially like even 574 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: more so than dinosaurs generally, that you have that fossils 575 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: as they're found are very often unimpressive until you start 576 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: extrapolating what this living creature would have looked like. However, 577 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: Mayra Wris as she thinks the giant terrasa remains in 578 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: southern Mexico might have been harder to miss and might 579 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: have led to some of these tales of giant winged creatures. 580 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: And this would have included Asdland, the Aztec homeland. Now 581 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: what about these So we're not saying, though, that we 582 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: think terosaurs would have inspired the belief in ketzel Coadal 583 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: just because these are these are very differently formed creatures, right, 584 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: we must be talking about some kind of other being. Well, yeah, 585 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: and luckily there are other flying creatures in meso American traditions. 586 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: For instance, the Yaqui people of Sonara believed in a 587 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: great bird that lived on Skeleton mountain or or O 588 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: tom Qui, and the belief was that it preyed on 589 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: humans and then when a child hero killed it, its 590 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: feathers turned into all the birds that live today. But 591 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: the likely suspect in these myths, Mayor says, are reports 592 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: of living California condors and the fossils of older condor species, 593 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: so you know, namely the giant raptors of the Ice age. 594 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: So these would have been more likely if inspired by 595 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: the bones of a creature or a living creature would 596 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: have been a real bird of prey rather than pterosaur fossil, 597 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: right and holding that makes more sense, like just think, 598 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: you know, you're dealing with something again where there is 599 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: there is the actual potential for an oral tradition to 600 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: carry some word about it. And then you also have 601 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: on top of the fossilized condors, you have actual condors 602 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: still in the world today that can be glimpsed and 603 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: would have been glimpsed by some of these people were 604 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: discussing here. So if we're talking about direct fossil inspirations 605 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: that could have possibly had something to do with Ketzelcoadle himself, 606 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: what we're probably talking about is the alleged reports of 607 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: the hand prints and the butt prints right right, which 608 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 1: certainly feels more like fossil like basically discovering fossil evidence 609 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: of the thing that you already believe in and maybe 610 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,959 Speaker 1: serving as a way to you know, physically connect with 611 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: the with with your religion and with this this deity, 612 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: but but not the thing that inspires it outright, And yeah, 613 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: I think that's that's the idea we come back to 614 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: time and time again anytime we discuss geo mythology. Like 615 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: sometimes it's a fun exercise to look at like could this, 616 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: could this fossil remain have entirely inspired this entity? But 617 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: in most cases it feels like there's there's a number 618 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: of factors, and fossils are maybe just one of those factors. Yeah, 619 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: and it's hard to know for sure. Yeah, I mean, 620 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: it's one of those things where you're almost never gonna 621 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: have a case where it's clear that it was inspired 622 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: by a fossil legend. You might have a few, yeah, 623 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: you know, interest I was thinking about that, actually I was, well, actually, 624 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: you know, I'd say one of the best cases of 625 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 1: the pretty clear inspirations are the ones where they bring 626 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: out the bones, where people wherever they are on Earth 627 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,280 Speaker 1: just have bones on hand that they keep as relics 628 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 1: and say these are the bones like these myths. Yeah, 629 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 1: like this. The mammoth example that we discussed here is 630 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,720 Speaker 1: is a I think a wonderful example of of actual 631 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: geo mythology, because that's what they said. There wasn't a 632 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: situation where we're just later saying maybe they could have 633 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: inspired by been inspired by these bones. Well, no, they 634 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: brought the bones out. The bones were part of their interpretation. Now, 635 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: it is also possible that the myths actually predated the bones. 636 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: You can't rule that out, but it seems like it's 637 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: a very good candidate that since they have the bones 638 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: and they have this belief that they're that these are linked, 639 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: there's a causation link here. You know, I can't help 640 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 1: but wonder how God'zilla fits into all of this, because 641 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: because think about it, like Godzilla is ultimately, you know, 642 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: certainly a fictional creature of the modern era, but in 643 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: some cases when you consider like the secular world of 644 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: popular culture, it's he's kind of a god. I mean, 645 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,399 Speaker 1: we said Godzilla in the you know, the English name 646 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: for for golhedra, So it's more kind of an old 647 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: school god, right, Yeah, maybe one of those gods like 648 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: Poseidon that most of the time isn't nice. Yeah, that 649 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: rises up out of the sea to destroy us. But 650 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 1: also there's a fossil connection, because Godzilla in his in 651 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: his form is base is basically based on the older 652 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: interpretation of Tyrannosaurus rex fossils. You know, we know today 653 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 1: that Tyrannosaurus rex likely you know, walked with its tail 654 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: out in a vertical position, you know, in a balanced position, 655 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: you know, the version that we see in Jurassic Park, 656 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,839 Speaker 1: but the older interpretation was that it kind of stood 657 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: more upright with its tail on the ground like Godzilla does. 658 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: So there's a there's maybe you know, a dash of 659 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: geo mythology in Godzilla as well. I feel like we 660 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: might need to come back and do an episode on 661 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 1: Godzilla again because there was recently a paper that came 662 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: out that looked at Godzilla's increase in size, how every 663 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: film version that comes out makes Godzilla bigger, and comparing 664 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: that to certain cultural changes, namely like how much money 665 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: a given culture invest into its military. So that might 666 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: be fun to discuss. Anytime we can discuss Godzilla on 667 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: the show, it's always a win. The saddest thing is 668 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: that they wouldn't make a direct sequel to shin Godzilla, 669 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: even after they set one up. Oh is it? Is 670 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 1: it out of the question? Well, well, I mean that 671 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 1: could be misunderstanding here. I think something happened where they 672 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: couldn't make a sequel to shin Godzilla because they were 673 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: making this American movie that just came out, King of 674 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 1: the Monsters, which I haven't seen but I've heard isn't 675 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: very good. And I just want another more in the 676 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: spirit of Shin Godzilla, please, And that's like the best 677 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: modern Godzilla movie. Yeah, I mean, I love probably all Godzilla. 678 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:03,439 Speaker 1: MAYF you show me a Godzilla movie, I'm probably gonna 679 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,919 Speaker 1: watch it and enjoy it. But Shin Godzilla was a real, 680 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: real treat, a Godzilla movie that made you think. I 681 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: think I tend to like the Japanese ones better than 682 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: the recent American ones. Yeah, I would agree. Shin Godzilla 683 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: has the best bureaucratic meetings. It does. It's I'm always 684 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: describing it to my wife and saying, oh, you should 685 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: see it. It's like a Godzilla movie, but it's full 686 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: of meetings and politicians talking to each other. And she's like, oh, 687 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,319 Speaker 1: that sounds awful, and I know, no, it's really good. 688 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 1: It's just so you can't turn your head away from it. 689 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: All right, Well, there you have it. I follow up 690 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: to a couple of past episodes, like two prequels in 691 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,800 Speaker 1: one and and hey, maybe a Glance of the future. 692 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: Let us know, do you want to hear a whole 693 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: other episode on Godzilla? Do you want to hear more 694 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: episodes on Geo Mythology? Let us know. We'd love to 695 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 1: hear from you. Your your input is important to us, 696 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: whether it's correcting us on something we get wrong or 697 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 1: just you know, helping helping us to grow as were 698 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 1: You know, that's part of the whole purpose of the 699 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: show is that we feel like through exploring these topics, 700 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: we're growing and hopefully you know listeners that are growing 701 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: as well and discovering a new facts about the world, 702 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: new avenues to explore in their own time. So let 703 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: us know. There are number of ways to reach out 704 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: to us. You can find us online at stuff to 705 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 1: Blow Yourmind dot com. 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Each episode 713 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: a different invention, a discussion of what came before, how 714 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: this invention changed things, and what came after it huge 715 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Tary Harrison. 716 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 717 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,280 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 718 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 719 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,240 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 720 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 721 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: a production of Iheartradios How Stuff Works. 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