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Speaker 4: Hi, everybody, it's Katie Couric. Have you heard about my

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Speaker 5: Hey Daniel, how's our podcast doing these days? Are we

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Speaker 5: number one in any territories right now?

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately we are only number three in natural science in

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Speaker 1: the US, behind some like paranormal and Bigfoot podcasts.

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Speaker 5: Ooh, maybe we should do those topics then we can

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Speaker 5: be number one.

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Speaker 1: Daniel Le Jorge explain Bigfoot?

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Speaker 5: How are those considered natural science? Doesn't seem very natural

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Speaker 5: to me.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, But the folks in the UK actually

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Speaker 1: have us as number one in natural science ahead of

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Speaker 1: the Bigfoot podcast. So shout out to the UK science listeners.

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Speaker 5: Maybe they don't have sasquatch in the UK, or maybe

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Speaker 5: they call it something different, like luckness or the furry guy.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but it makes me hopeful that we'll

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Speaker 1: be number one in natural science in other places.

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Speaker 5: Ooh, are you thinking globally or are you thinking like

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Speaker 5: Solar system wid Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Let's go into planet are I want to become the

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Speaker 1: top podcast of Martian colonists?

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Speaker 5: Why stop there? Why not go all the way to

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Speaker 5: Jupiter or Uranus? I mean Uranus?

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Speaker 1: Sure? I want to also be number one podcast among

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Speaker 1: aliens eavesdropping on human technology?

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Speaker 5: H you think we have alien fans?

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Speaker 1: I just wonder if that's going to change. Who buys

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Speaker 1: ads for the show?

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Speaker 5: What kind of products do you think they would be

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Speaker 5: trying to sell to humans?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but thanks to cryptocurrency and Venmo, they

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Speaker 1: can actually send their funds interplanetarily to us on Earth.

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Speaker 5: You think they have Venmo and other galaxies or other planets. Also,

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Speaker 5: how do they do the exchange rate? Don't you need

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Speaker 5: like a central bank or something.

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Speaker 1: We'll figure that out when we build our Daniel and

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Speaker 1: Jorge galactic Empire.

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Speaker 5: Which will include cryptocurrency. I don't know, man, sounds kind

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Speaker 5: of risky.

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Speaker 1: Well, if we're not going to do crypto zoology, we

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Speaker 1: got to do crypto.

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Speaker 5: Something, cryptoeconomics, exocrypto economics.

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Speaker 1: Exocrypto podcast, domics.

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Speaker 5: I'll be the first person with a PhD in that field.

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Speaker 5: I am Horehammick, cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle of physicists and a

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Speaker 1: professor at UC Irvine, and I own zero cryptocurrency.

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Speaker 5: Oh how do you know? I mean, isn't it all virtual?

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Speaker 5: Couldn't you virtually own it too?

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Speaker 1: I mean I checked my pockets and I didn't find any.

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Speaker 5: So that's what I mean. You wouldn't find it in

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Speaker 5: your pockets.

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Speaker 1: I mean my digital pockets.

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Speaker 6: Man.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm not invested in cryptocurrency. Have not bought any cryptocurrency.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that anything I own owns any cryptocurrency.

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Speaker 1: To the best of my knowledge, as my lawyers advised

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Speaker 1: me to say, I am not in the crypto universe.

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Speaker 5: Well, it might be hard to tell that these days.

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Speaker 5: I wonder like, if some mutual fund you buy, buy

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Speaker 5: some other fund that buys another fund that maybe has

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Speaker 5: a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Of crypto in it, we probably all have a little

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Speaker 1: bit of crypto in us.

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Speaker 5: Are pretty cryptic. I guess we're welcome to our podcast,

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Speaker 5: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we attempt to do our best to decrypt

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Speaker 1: the universe and explain all of its mysteries to you.

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Speaker 1: We want to unscramble the craziness that is our cosmos

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Speaker 1: and explain to you how it can be understood in

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Speaker 1: terms of a set of basic physical laws. It seems

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Speaker 1: like so far everything out there can be made sense of.

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Speaker 1: It's possible to assemble simple mathematical stories that describe how

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Speaker 1: balls bounce against each other, how galaxies form, and maybe

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Speaker 1: even what's inside black holes or the fundamental underpinnings of

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Speaker 1: alien economics.

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Speaker 5: It's right because it is a pretty rich universe full

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Speaker 5: of amazing and incredible treasures that you can invest in

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Speaker 5: in order to grow your mind, I guess, And so

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Speaker 5: that's what we do here. We like to talk about it,

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Speaker 5: so we can have a pretty good exchange with all

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Speaker 5: of you about it.

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Speaker 1: All we ask for is your time and a slice

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Speaker 1: of your brain to sit with us and enjoy the

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Speaker 1: crazy mysteries of the universe as we try to unravel them.

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Speaker 1: While we are here on this tiny rock, we are

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Speaker 1: able to cast our minds across the cosmos and wonder

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Speaker 1: what's going on out there in other solar systems. Are

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Speaker 1: there aliens looking up at their night skies wondering what

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Speaker 1: we are thinking about and whether we would be interested

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Speaker 1: in buying their NFTs?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, because it's a pretty big universe. And as they

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Speaker 5: said in the movie Contact, it'd be kind of a

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Speaker 5: shame if we were the only living sentient beings in it.

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Speaker 5: It would be a pretty amazing thing to be the

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Speaker 5: only ones in this vast universe that has some kind

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Speaker 5: of intelligence or podcasts.

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Speaker 1: It would be pretty amazing to be alone, and it

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Speaker 1: would be pretty amazing to not be alone either. Answer

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Speaker 1: to this famous question is mind blowing.

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Speaker 5: Does it depend you think on whether you're an extrovert

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Speaker 5: species or an introvert species.

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Speaker 1: I think it's nice to know that they're out there.

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Speaker 1: If you're an introvert species, you might not want to

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Speaker 1: give them a call, but you still want to know

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Speaker 1: that they exist, you know. I think everybody's probably curious

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Speaker 1: about the universe, but there's an assumption there, right extra

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Speaker 1: populating our experience to the experience of aliens. We're hoping

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Speaker 1: that there is other intelligence out there in the universe

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Speaker 1: because we know that we are capable of joy and

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Speaker 1: love and beauty, and we hope that aliens out there

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Speaker 1: are also having a good time. We hope that they

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Speaker 1: aren't floating in their slime pits and just totally suffering.

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Speaker 5: Would that make you, I guess, more of an exovert

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Speaker 5: because you like exoplanetary life.

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Speaker 1: I am more of an exovert than an extrovert. That's true.

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Speaker 1: I'm more interested in talking to aliens than humans sometimes and.

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Speaker 5: Learning from them, I guess, because if there are aliens

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Speaker 5: out there, there's a lot that we could learn from them, right,

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Speaker 5: There's a lot that we could learn about how to

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Speaker 5: travel through stars, or even just how to make it

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Speaker 5: past our point and civilization to greater things.

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Speaker 1: Or just how to be alive in this universe. When

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Speaker 1: you travel, even just here on Earth and experience different

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Speaker 1: human cultures, you learn so much about the basic questions

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Speaker 1: they ask about life, the approach they take. It makes

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Speaker 1: you realize how much of your life and the way

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Speaker 1: you think is kind of arbitrary and cultural. It opens

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Speaker 1: your minds, It shows you the box that you have

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Speaker 1: been thinking in, and so talking to aliens would be

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Speaker 1: the ultimate version of that. Experience could help us understand

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Speaker 1: our context in ways we can't even imagine today, and

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Speaker 1: of course, perhaps help us crack some of the long

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Speaker 1: standing physics problems we're bang in our heads again.

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Speaker 5: I feel like maybe we could do that on our own, Daniel,

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Speaker 5: what do humans need help? Can we figure it all

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Speaker 5: out eventually on our own?

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Speaker 1: It's certainly possible that we could figure it all out eventually,

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Speaker 1: but we might not be the smartest species out there right.

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Speaker 1: I think humans are pretty clever, but it's possible we

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Speaker 1: have a limitation to our fundamental neural capacity that makes

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Speaker 1: it impossible for us to grasp the mathematics that underlie

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Speaker 1: the universe. It's also the possibility of false starts. You know,

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Speaker 1: human science is fairly diverse, but it also has collapsed

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Speaker 1: along a few pathways, choices we made early on, being

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Speaker 1: influenced by geniuses who came along. It's just interesting to

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Speaker 1: think about other paths and intelligent species might have taken

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Speaker 1: that might be more or less fruitful in terms of

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Speaker 1: understanding the universe.

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Speaker 5: I wonder how we interact if one of your students

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Speaker 5: that to you, like, Hey, doctor Whitson, I don't think

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Speaker 5: I'm the smartest person in this class. I just don't

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Speaker 5: have the neural processes for it. Can I copy that

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Speaker 5: person next to me for our test? You would have

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Speaker 5: to say yes, Daniel.

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Speaker 1: I think the ultimate exam for an intelligent species is

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Speaker 1: working together to figure out the mystery of the universe.

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Speaker 1: So we're all getting graded on a group project. That's

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Speaker 1: how I see it.

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Speaker 5: Well, it is an interesting topic to think about whether

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Speaker 5: aliens exist out there. And just to be clear, Daniel,

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Speaker 5: nobody has seen or talked to any aliens as far

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Speaker 5: as physicists know.

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Speaker 1: Right as far as this physicist, no, we have no

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Speaker 1: confirmed communications with aliens. Absolutely.

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Speaker 5: That's a different podcast. In the natural sciences.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the Luckness Monster is actually an alien come to

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Speaker 1: Earth to talk to its long lost brother Bigfoot.

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Speaker 5: I think you just found our new gold mine here

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Speaker 5: fun fan fiction about human fiction cryptozoology.

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Speaker 1: But instead of thinking about what other weird kinds of

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Speaker 1: life might exist in the lakes of Scotland or the

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Speaker 1: deep forests of a life, we like to think about

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Speaker 1: what kind of life might exist on other planets and

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Speaker 1: whether it would be possible to communicate with them. If

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Speaker 1: we're going to hear messages from distant civilizations on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the galaxy, well, of course need to

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Speaker 1: receive those messages. They'll need to be capable of sending

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Speaker 1: us those messages, so we have to think a little

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Speaker 1: bit about what their civilizations might be capable of.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and all, though this might seem like baseless extrapolation

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Speaker 5: or speculation, it is something that physicists have been engaged

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Speaker 5: in for a while. Physicists have polish papers on these

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Speaker 5: ideas about aliens and what aliens could look like, and

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Speaker 5: even Carl Sitting was sort of famous for chiming in

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Speaker 5: a lot about aliens.

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Speaker 1: You say baseless extrapolation like it's a bad thing. I

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Speaker 1: don't get it.

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Speaker 5: Usually when maybe in physics, the bar is lower.

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Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying, Well, you know, in physics

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Speaker 1: we're often tackling problems that are basically impossible. We don't

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Speaker 1: know how to get started, and so what we usually

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Speaker 1: do is we begin with the simplest, dumbest thing, which

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Speaker 1: often involves baseless extrapolation, like we don't know how to

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Speaker 1: tackle this, Let's just assume a spherical cow and start

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Speaker 1: from there. And so we're going to talk about alien civilizations.

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Speaker 1: The only example we have is our own, and so

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Speaker 1: we have to begin at least by making some assumptions

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Speaker 1: about alien civilizations and their similarity to civilization on Earth,

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Speaker 1: knowing all the time, keeping in the back of our

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Speaker 1: heads that we are making these assumptions and that maybe

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Speaker 1: one day we'll figure out how to relax them or

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Speaker 1: break them or get out of that box.

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Speaker 5: And then I guess the point would be that once

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Speaker 5: we meet aliens, you can be like, Hi, I told

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Speaker 5: you so, or WHOA, I was totally wrong? Is that

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Speaker 5: the whole point of it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, If you think this through and you come to

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Speaker 1: some conclusions and then you meet aliens and discover they're

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Speaker 1: totally different from what you expected, it helps you think

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Speaker 1: through what you might have misunderstood, which aspect of your assumptions,

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Speaker 1: which step in your line of thinking might have gone wrong?

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Speaker 5: How much of your time did you waste? Well, it's

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Speaker 5: that or just don't think about it, you know, that's right.

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Speaker 5: It's two physics or just don't think about it. Those

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Speaker 5: are the two all options.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do physics or do nothing? Right, I mean, is

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Speaker 1: there anything else on the menu that's right?

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Speaker 5: Well, what else could there be in life to do?

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Speaker 1: No? But when you are tackling really big, hard questions

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Speaker 1: about the nature of the universe and alien civilizations, you

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Speaker 1: don't often have first principles to start from, so you

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Speaker 1: just sort of explore the space using some assumptions to

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Speaker 1: get yourself oriented.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so this is something physicists have been thinking about,

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Speaker 5: and in fact, there's an interesting framework to think about it.

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Speaker 5: And the question here is what would an alien civilization

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Speaker 5: look like? Can we extrapolate from human civilization? So to

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Speaker 5: the end the podcast, we'll be tackling how powerful can

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Speaker 5: a civilization get? Now, Daniel is as powerful as in

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Speaker 5: like awesome, or powerful as in like will come and

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Speaker 5: kill us?

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Speaker 1: Powerful as in what is there? Number one podcast?

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Speaker 5: Ooh in the natural sciences in certain countries.

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Speaker 1: Clearly a leading indicator of cultural value and progress, right.

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Speaker 5: And handsomeness as well. Don't forget there's a clear correlation

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Speaker 5: if you look at a certain data set.

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Speaker 1: There's lots of ways to think about the power of

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Speaker 1: a civilization. But in a very practical sense, if we

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Speaker 1: are going to discover an alien civilization without going there,

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Speaker 1: they need to be pretty powerful because we have to

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Speaker 1: receive their signals, right if they are far far away

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Speaker 1: around another star for us to hear their messages, their

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Speaker 1: messages have to arrive on Earth, which means they need

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Speaker 1: a certain power in their broadcast. And so we can

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Speaker 1: think about like fundamentally, what is the energy available to

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Speaker 1: those civilizations? Would they even have enough energy to beam

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Speaker 1: us a message from the other side of the galaxy?

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Speaker 5: Mmmm? You mean sort of like what's their footprint, Like

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Speaker 5: what's their energy footprint?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Physicists tends to think about things as like simple

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Speaker 1: black boxes, right, like energy in, energy out. But if

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Speaker 1: physicist thinks about nutrition, for example, it's just like calories

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Speaker 1: in calories burned. Right, Physicists model humans as like simple

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Speaker 1: bomb calorimeters. And so here we're modeling like the entire

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Speaker 1: higher complexity of an alien civilization in terms of like

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Speaker 1: how much energy do they have access to and how

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Speaker 1: much energy can they afford to put it to their signal?

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Speaker 5: I see, So today we're sort of asking like how

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Speaker 5: much energy and alien civilization might be able to consume

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Speaker 5: I guess so spend or hardness or channel into one

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Speaker 5: signal exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's a way of thinking through our possible future for

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Speaker 1: our civilization. What does that hold? What technology might we

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Speaker 1: develop in the future that gives us access to stars

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Speaker 1: or many stars or many universes.

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Speaker 5: And so physicists have come up with or at least

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Speaker 5: some physicists have come up with a scale to measure

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Speaker 5: how much energy an alien civilization might be able to

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Speaker 5: tap into around them and where they live. It's called

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Speaker 5: the Kardashev scale. Not related to the Kardashians.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the scale is how many Kardashians do you have

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Speaker 1: on your social media? And so we've currently maxed that out.

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Speaker 1: We're leading the galaxy.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think one is maybe too many on

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Speaker 5: that scale. But is it kardaschef Kardashi If do you

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Speaker 5: pronounce it?

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Speaker 1: I've heard it pronounced Kardaschef and it's a popular trope

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Speaker 1: in science fiction also because it's a fun way of

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Speaker 1: thinking about very powerful alien civilizations, and so it crops

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Speaker 1: up everywhere. And a bunch of listeners wrote in and

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Speaker 1: asked us to talk about the Kardashchef scale.

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Speaker 5: M Andre, you sure they weren't asking us to talk

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Speaker 5: to a Kardashian on the podcast, because that would probably

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Speaker 5: put us in the number one spot.

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Speaker 1: I reached out to all of them.

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Speaker 5: None of them have responded, all right, So then let's

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Speaker 5: talk about this Kardashif scale here on today's episode. And so,

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Speaker 5: as usual, we were wondering how many people out there

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Speaker 5: had heard of this scale and how it measures an

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Speaker 5: alien civilization's possible energy use.

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Speaker 1: So thank you very much to everybody out there who

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Speaker 1: participates in these questions and answers. It's really fun for

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Speaker 1: us to hear what people are thinking. If you'd like

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Speaker 1: to participate for future episodes of the podcast, please don't

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Speaker 1: be shy. Write to us two questions at Danielandhorge dot com.

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Speaker 5: So think about it for a second. What do you

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Speaker 5: think a Cardaschef scale is. Here's what people have to say.

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure, I've heard of the Kardashiv scale, but

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Speaker 3: I'm blanking on what it is. Something in the back

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Speaker 3: of my mind as saying it's something about the size

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Speaker 3: of stars or something like that.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea. I don't know, don't have any idea.

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Speaker 1: Kardashia scale. No, I don't know what the Kardashiv scale is.

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Speaker 1: But if I had to take a guess, I would

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Speaker 1: say it is some sort of.

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Speaker 7: High energy scale at which quantum effects become important, like

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Speaker 7: in a black hole or something, because of the all

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Speaker 7: the very high energy density and also quantum properties become important.

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Speaker 5: All Right, maybe we need a we have no idea

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Speaker 5: scale here, because everyone seemed to max it out on

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Speaker 5: the idol no scale.

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Speaker 1: There really was no recognition. I'm sort of amazed given

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Speaker 1: the number of listeners who asked us to talk about this.

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Speaker 1: The listeners I happen to sample here had never heard

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 5: Well, that's what we're here for, to talk about the

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Speaker 5: Kardashians and upscale ar alien scales that may their energy.

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Speaker 1: I wonder what the alien Kardashians are like.

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Speaker 5: Oh, my gosh, I kind of hope they don't have Kardashians.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the Kardashian scale is how much your civilization has

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Speaker 1: jumped the shark.

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Speaker 5: Well, we have jumped the shark and the Bigfoot and

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Speaker 5: the Luckness Monster. So I think we're in big trouble.

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Speaker 5: We're due for cancellation any moment.

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Speaker 1: The galactic Netflix is going to pull our budget.

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Speaker 5: Huh that's right, Yeah, No.

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Speaker 1: I want to see what happens in season five thousand

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Speaker 1: of Humanity.

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Speaker 5: Oh which season are we on? Now? I haven't been

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Speaker 5: binging Humans. I'm not cut up. Everyone's talking about it.

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Speaker 5: Everyone's like, oh, you got to watch this, you got

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Speaker 5: to see these kids. But who has the time?

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Speaker 1: You know, spoiler alert, a lot of people die.

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Speaker 5: Oh sounds like a depressing show. Well, let's jump into it, Daniel,

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Speaker 5: What is the Kardashiv scale?

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 1: The Kardashiv scale was suggested by a physicist, Kardashev, of course,

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Speaker 1: that tries to imagine how civilizations will grow, specifically in

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Speaker 1: their energy use, in order to understand how much energy

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Speaker 1: they might have available to pump into signals to beam

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Speaker 1: to Earth so that we can describe them. The original

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Speaker 1: Kardashiv scale has a few stages, but in the meantime

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Speaker 1: people have built on this and expanded on it and

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Speaker 1: taken in all sorts of new directions. So it's sort

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Speaker 1: of a fun framework for understanding how a civilization might

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Speaker 1: grow to tap into the natural energy available to us

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Speaker 1: in the universe. I see.

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Speaker 5: Is it more like a scale that measures how much

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Speaker 5: energy a civilization uses or just kind of keeps tab

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Speaker 5: of where they would get this energy.

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Speaker 1: It's both. It's an accounting of how much energy is

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Speaker 1: available to a civilization, but of course there aren't infinite

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Speaker 1: arbitrary energy sources in the universe, and so it imagines

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Speaker 1: how they might find those sources of energy. And it's

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Speaker 1: broken into three categories, one where you think about all

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Speaker 1: the energy available on a planet, another way you think

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Speaker 1: about all the energy available in the solar system, and

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Speaker 1: then a third where you think about all the energy

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Speaker 1: available in the galaxy.

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Speaker 5: I see. So like a stage one civilization is one

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Speaker 5: that only has the energy of a planet available to them,

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Speaker 5: or alternately, you assume that they have access to all

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Speaker 5: the energy that a planet can have.

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Speaker 1: Yes, precisely.

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Speaker 5: All right, well, let's get into each of these stages

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Speaker 5: and see where humans are and where aliens might be.

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Speaker 5: Add But first let's take a quick break.

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445
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456
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457
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458
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459
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460
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461
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462
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Speaker 1: dairy farms reuse water up to four times the same

463
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464
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465
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466
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468
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470
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472
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473
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Speaker 5: All right, welcome back to our podcast Baseless Speculation with

474
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 5: Daniel and Jorge about the first.

475
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: Steps in understanding in the universe. With Daniel and ra.

476
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 5: I thought the first step was always observation.

477
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: Daniel in science, well, we've been trying to observe aliens,

478
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 1: but we have zero data. So that's one thing we

479
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 1: have to try to.

480
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 5: Understand, right, I see, step one is observed. Step two

481
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 5: a is if you don't observe anything, start making stuff up.

482
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 5: Is that what you're saying?

483
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, also, if you don't observe anything, try to

484
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 1: understand why you didn't see something. One thing that motivated

485
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: carda Chef's paper was the famous Fermi paradox, the idea

486
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: that the galaxy is quite old, certainly old enough for

487
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: alien civilizations to have developed and beam does signals, and

488
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: yet we haven't heard from any of them. So Karda

489
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: Chef was motivated to think about, like, well, how would

490
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: they send us messages? Would they actually have enough energy

491
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: in how would they do it? So it's a way

492
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: of thinking about also why we haven't heard from aliens.

493
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 5: I see, it's kind of like they haven't come visitors.

494
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 5: Why would that be? And we can't see them why

495
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 5: would that be? And if you think about different scenarios,

496
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 5: maybe you can come up the way that you could

497
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 5: see them exactly.

498
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: And it might make the problem harder because maybe you discover, oh,

499
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: it's quite trivial for aliens to have enough energy to

500
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: beam us messages, and or maybe you discover that in

501
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 1: order for aliens to send us messages from across the galaxy,

502
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: they would have to harness all the power of the

503
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: entire galaxy. And that might explain why we can't see

504
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: Kardashians from other worlds, which is a bad thing. No

505
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: value judgments here man, this is just science.

506
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 5: Well, apparently this idea of how much energy an alien

507
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 5: species might be consuming or have available to them is

508
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 5: all measured on something called the Kardaship scale, which, as

509
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 5: you said, has three stages. So let's step through these stages.

510
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 5: What's stage number one? And is that something we're at

511
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 5: or are we pass stage one? Where are we in

512
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 5: this stage system?

513
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 1: So stage number one is a civilization that uses all

514
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: of the energy available on its planet, meaning all of

515
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: the solar energy, for example, that hits the surface of

516
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: the Earth. We are not even at stage one. I

517
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: mean we are capturing some fraction of the solar energy,

518
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: for example, and digging up fossil fuels that have effectively

519
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: stored solar energy from the past. But on the Earth

520
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: what's available to us is something like ten to the

521
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: seventeen watts. Watts is a unit of power, so it's

522
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: energy per second.

523
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 5: Is that the kind of wattage? Like if you had

524
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 5: a solar panel the size of the Earth, that's how

525
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 5: much energy we would beginning from the sun.

526
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: Yes, if you can cover the entire Earth with solar panels,

527
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 1: so you built like a solar panel that completely made

528
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: the Earth in shadow. That's how much energy you could

529
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: theoretically capture, or that how much energy is falling onto

530
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: those solar panels. Solar panels, of course not one hundred

531
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: percent efficient, but that's sort of like how much energy

532
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: you have access to.

533
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 5: And that's interesting how you said that. Basically, like fossil fuels,

534
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 5: even what we have here, maybe even wind energy, it

535
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 5: all comes from the Sun eventually, right, all that.

536
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: Energy originally does come from the sun. Yeah. Wind also

537
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 1: comes from the Sun because it involves heating of pockets

538
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: of air by the Sun. So all of that originally

539
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: does come from the Sun. There are, of course, other

540
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: sources of energy we could tap into on Earth that

541
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 1: are not directly from our Sun. Like when you do fission,

542
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: you're breaking apart uranium. That uranium was formed in some

543
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: other process, maybe the supernova or collisions of neutron stars,

544
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: well before our solar system was even birth, So you're

545
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: tapping into energy sources that have been stored there for

546
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: a long time.

547
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 5: Wait, you're saying all energy is solar energy. So when

548
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 5: I'm at the gas station, I'm actually pouring solar energy

549
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 5: into my car.

550
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, gas is sort of like a solar battery.

551
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: But the idea of the Kardaschef scale is not to

552
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: argue that the maximum energy you could get on Earth

553
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: is just to cover it with solar panels. It's just

554
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: a way to sort of set a level, to fix

555
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: a standard. There's actually more energy available than that. If

556
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: you could like take the components of the Earth and

557
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: new fission and fusion, you could release even more energy

558
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 1: than the sort of stage one Kardaschev standard. But it's

559
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: just sort of like how to define a threshold.

560
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 5: All right? So then is the threshold defined by the

561
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 5: solar energy we get from the Sun, or like all

562
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 5: the energy in all of the uranium and heavy atoms,

563
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 5: and maybe even the water because if you can figure

564
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 5: out fusion, you could also fuse water to make energy.

565
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 5: Is that how you define how much energy is available

566
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 5: on planet Earth?

567
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: No, it's just the amount of solar energy that falls

568
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,479
Speaker 1: on planet Earth defines the Kardashev scale, So you can

569
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 1: in principle exceed it without leaving your planet. Right. For example,

570
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: you could achieve this by doing matter antimatter annihilation, right,

571
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: Like two kilograms of matter antimatter annihilation every second would

572
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 1: achieve Kardashev stage one energy levels even without doing any

573
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 1: solar power, right.

574
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 5: But I wonder if maybe in the scale he was

575
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 5: more thinking about like long term sustainable energy sources, right, Like,

576
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 5: maybe we can't figure out fission and fusion, but eventually

577
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 5: we're going to run out of these fuel elements on

578
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 5: a single planet, but the Sun is going to be

579
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 5: burning for billions of years.

580
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: That's true, although a lot of these sources would last

581
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: us a really long time. If for example, we could

582
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: do fusion, you know, we'd need like three hundred kilograms

583
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: of hydrogen fused per second to reach Kardashev stage one.

584
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 1: That sounds like a lot, but there's a lot of

585
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: hydrogen out there on the planet. You know, Like a

586
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: cubic kilometer of water has like one hundred billion kilograms

587
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: of hydrogen. So a cubic kilometer of water is like

588
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: hundreds of years of energy at the Kardashev stage one,

589
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of cubic kilometers of water out there.

590
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: So even if you're ignoring solar power, you could achieve

591
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: this level and do it for a long long time

592
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 1: even without solar power.

593
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 5: I feel like you're trying to convince me that this

594
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 5: Cardashians scale is not really valiant. So I guess, what

595
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 5: are you saying like or what is this scale supposed

596
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 5: to be measuring.

597
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: Then the scale is just to set a standard to

598
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: say what could you achieve using the energy of a planet. Obviously,

599
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: how much energy you could actually extract from a planet

600
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: over billions of years depends on what's in that planet,

601
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: for example, how big is that planet, how much mass

602
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: is there. But this is just like to set a

603
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: standard in the end, of course, it's arbitrary, but it's

604
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: also a useful measure. It's an approximate value just to

605
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,959
Speaker 1: sort of guide your thinking. And you know, one thing

606
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: to realize is that we are far from that threshold.

607
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: You're on Earth. If the standard is two times ten

608
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: to the seventeen watts, we're a matter of factor of

609
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: ten thousand below that. Human civilization uses like ten to

610
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: the thirteen watts, so we're well below a stage one civilization.

611
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 5: Okay, So these stages are defined by wattage. So stage

612
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 5: one civilization is one that uses approximately ten to the

613
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 5: seventeen watts of energy. Is that kind of how the

614
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 5: scale works. It's like if you're a soliciation and you're

615
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 5: using about ten to the seventeen watts of energy, then

616
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 5: will categorize you as a Stage one and usually that

617
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 5: will probably mean you're in the range of like still

618
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 5: stuck in your planet.

619
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, exactly. That's what you're capable of, even if

620
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: you're stuck on your planet, right, you're capable of something

621
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: of that order. Maybe you figure it out matter and

622
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: to matter annihilation, maybe you figured it out fusion. Maybe

623
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: you've covered your planet in solar panels. Maybe you've built

624
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: space based solar panels that then beam the energy down

625
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: to Earth. But if you're very advanced civilization but you're

626
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: still on your planet, that's sort of the order of

627
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: magnitude of energy that you have available to you.

628
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 5: All Right, So then where are we You said we're

629
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 5: below that maximum usage.

630
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're about a factor of ten thousand below officially

631
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: being Stage one. Crowned by the Galactic Empire as a

632
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: baby civilization age one, Carl Stegen estimated that we're like

633
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: a type zero point seven civilization on the Kardashev scale.

634
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: He tried to make it continuous instead of just having

635
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: like one, two three, and he estimates that we're around

636
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: zero point seven.

637
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 5: And it's kind of like a logarithmic scale, right, Like

638
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 5: the difference between point seven and point eight is it's

639
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 5: probably like an order of magnitude or something.

640
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was using a logarithmic extrapolation. And the reason

641
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: is that we tend to increase the consumption of energy

642
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: byer civilization fairly exponentially. Like in the last decade, energy

643
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: use has gone up by two point three percent every year.

644
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: Every year, that's a larger increase because it's two point

645
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: three percent of a bigger number. And so people estimate

646
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: that if we increase our energy use every year by

647
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: three percent, then in one hundred and fifty or two

648
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,959
Speaker 1: hundred years we would be at type one civilization.

649
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 5: I wonder if this scale also depends on how many

650
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 5: people there are, or how many individuals of a certain

651
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 5: species there are. Like, you know, if one person was

652
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 5: using ten to the seventeen wats, it must be a

653
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 5: super duper advanced civilization, right with you know, one person

654
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 5: being able to control all this energy. But as you know,

655
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 5: there's like a trillion or trillion trillion people then and

656
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 5: each person is using a little bit of energy, then

657
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 5: maybe it's not that impressive of a thing.

658
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe alien Kardashians are dominating the alien energy market.

659
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: It's a good question how they use their energy. And

660
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: I think for Kardashev, the goal was to think about

661
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: what fraction of their energy they might devote to sending

662
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: a signal to outer space. If they have access to

663
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: ten to the seventeen watts of energy, maybe they would

664
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: devote one percent of it to pumping messages to the

665
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: stars or point oh one percent of it. But it

666
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: just sort of gives you a scale for what they

667
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: have access to.

668
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 5: All right, let's talk about what they might use all

669
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 5: this energy for. But I guess let's step through the

670
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 5: rest of the stages. So if we're like almost up

671
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 5: stage one sulization, what would be a stage two soilization.

672
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: Stage two would be to unshackle yourself from your planet

673
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: and then take advantage of all the energy put out

674
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: by your star. Now Here we are on Earth, even

675
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: if we gobbled up all of the photons that come

676
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: to the Earth from the Sun, that's a tiny fraction

677
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: of the Sun's energy. The Sun is also shooting out

678
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: photons that don't hit the Earth. Of course, in all

679
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: sorts of directions, and so the idea is capture all

680
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: of the energy of your star, not just the fraction

681
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: that falls on your planet.

682
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 5: I see. So stage two is like we've left the

683
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 5: Earth and we're living in space.

684
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: Basically, you don't even have to leave the Earth and

685
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: you don't have to live in space necessarily, but you

686
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: have to have somehow had the technology to harness the

687
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: energy of that star, which probably means building some megastructure,

688
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: like a bunch of solar panels that envelop your star

689
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: to gather all of that energy.

690
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 5: Right, But that would be a pretty big construction project.

691
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 5: I mean, you would need people living out there just

692
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 5: to build something so big, or at least have the

693
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 5: ability to like, you know, move around space pretty easily,

694
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 5: which is a lot more than what we can do now.

695
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: We definitely are nowhere close to doing that, and you

696
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: probably would need people out there, but you also might

697
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: be able to automate a lot of it. You could

698
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: have robots, for example, that build more robots and then

699
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: build this massive structure. It's hard to get your mind around,

700
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: like sort of the size of this thing. This would

701
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: be the biggest thing anybody ever built. If you make

702
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: it really close to the Sun. It can be smaller,

703
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: but then it's subject to a lot of solar radiation.

704
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: If you make it further away from the Sun, then

705
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: it's got to be like ridiculously massive. Like for example,

706
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: if you build this thing at one au, so you

707
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: have like now a sphere whose radius is the radius

708
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: of the Earth's orbit, then the inside of this thing

709
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: is going to be five hundred and fifty million times

710
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: the surface area of the Earth. So imagine a construction

711
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: project that rebuilds the surface of the area of the

712
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: Earth five hundred and fifty million times. That's definitely not

713
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: going to be on budget or on schedule.

714
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 5: Right, So the positive thing is that it'll always be

715
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 5: sunny inside of that sphere.

716
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: Right, just like here in southern California.

717
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, or Philadelphia. But I mean this is sort of

718
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 5: like one way that you could harness the power of

719
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 5: the Sun, which is to build a giant solar panel

720
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 5: that basically like envelops the Sun so you can capture

721
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 5: all of its energy. And what does that take us

722
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 5: up to in terms of wattage?

723
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: So Stage one, remember was ten to the seventeen watts.

724
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: Stage two, using all the energy available from the Sun

725
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 1: is like four times ten to the twenty six watts.

726
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: So that's like a billion times or two billion times

727
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: more energy than Stage one.

728
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 5: Really only a billion times to go from the Earth

729
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 5: to the Sun.

730
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: Only a billion times more energy. Wow, you don't seem impressed.

731
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 5: While isn't the Earth super tiny compared to the Sun.

732
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: The Earth is certainly super tiny compared to the Sun.

733
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 1: But the sort of cross sectional area of the Earth,

734
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: which is the fraction of the Sun's energy that it captures,

735
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: is approximately one billion of the surface area of a

736
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: sphere whose radius is the orbit of the Earth. That's

737
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: why if you build the Dison sphere, it have to

738
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 1: be like many hundreds of millions of times the surface

739
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: area of the Earth to cover the inside of that sphere.

740
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: So a factor rebellion is about right.

741
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 5: But again, this is just solar energy. Like we could

742
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 5: probably maybe get to that level of wattage if we

743
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 5: figure out fusion or fission more efficiently right here on Earth.

744
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: It's conceptually possible to achieve a Stage two civilization to

745
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: get that same level of energy without building the Dison sphere.

746
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: Developing some other way to extract energy from within the Earth,

747
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,439
Speaker 1: you know, anti matter or fusion or something else. Crazy. Again,

748
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: this is just sort of like a scale. The Sun

749
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: is the cheapest, most abundant, easiest to identify source of

750
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: energy in the solar system, So what could you do

751
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: if you could capture all of the energy that it produces?

752
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 5: Right? All right, Well, let's step through quickly. What are

753
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 5: some of these other stages? If you use all the

754
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 5: energy in the Sun, where do you go from there?

755
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 5: All the energy in the galaxy?

756
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly where else could you go except from our

757
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: star to all the other stars? So Kardashev's stage three says,

758
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: use all the energy in the galaxy, which basically is

759
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: like all the energy in each individual star, and that

760
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 1: takes you up another eleven orders of magnitude, another factor

761
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: of one hundred billion to four times ten to the

762
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: thirty seven watts. Number. Stage one, which we're not even at,

763
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 1: is ten to the seventeen watts. So now we're talking

764
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: about twenty orders of magnitude more energy than Stage one.

765
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 5: Like somehow, if you have solar panels around every star

766
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 5: in a galaxy, then you could harness all of the

767
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 5: light that is coming out of a particular galaxy.

768
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: Right in principle, if you didn't think building a dice

769
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 1: in sphere was a big enough construction project. You could

770
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: build one around every single star in the galaxy. I

771
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 1: can't even say it without laughing. It's such a ridiculous idea.

772
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: But in principle, if you develop the machines to build

773
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: more machines to complete your Diyson sphere project, they could

774
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: just go off to the rest of the galaxy and

775
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: keep working. Maybe your robots are like a virus. Once

776
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: they start building dison spheres, they just don't stop.

777
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 5: That sounds like a negative thing, to snuff out a

778
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 5: whole galaxy basically, right, Yeah.

779
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: It depends on what you do with that. You know,

780
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: if the robots develop these dice and spheres and then

781
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: channel the energy to you for you to use for

782
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: good for building your civilization and feeding your people, etcetera, awesome.

783
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 1: If they just harness the energy the galaxy and snuff

784
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: it out, then yeah, the galaxy is going to go dark, right.

785
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: All the stars would be burning inside these dice in spheres.

786
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: There'd be no more light being released for like astronomy

787
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 1: and stargazing and romantic dinners.

788
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 5: Well, you can imagine maybe an alien civilization doing this

789
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 5: and we have imagined then apparently, and we I think

790
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 5: we've talked about this also in our podcast about this possibility,

791
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 5: but maybe let's talk a little bit about why this

792
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 5: is kind of relevant right to our question of aliens

793
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 5: and do they exist and could we see them out there?

794
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 5: Because the idea is and not, which is that there's

795
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 5: an alien soilization using all this energy, but maybe they're

796
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 5: using it in a way that would allow us to

797
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 5: communicate with them or at least see them, right.

798
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: Exactly, having aliens out there in the universe is not

799
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: enough for us to discover them. We need to get

800
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: signals from them, and at least up till now, we've

801
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: relied on messages from electromagnetic radiation. That's what we're looking for.

802
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: You know, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence is scanning the

803
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: sky for messages essentially in the radio waves. And to

804
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 1: produce those radio waves takes energy. When you're a radio

805
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: station is pumping out music that you like over the airwaves.

806
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: They're doing so by running an antenna, by sending electricity

807
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: up and down that antenna, by wiggling those electrons so

808
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: that they radiate the photons that you pick up. You

809
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: know how some radio stations are very powerful, and other

810
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,240
Speaker 1: radio stations you can't really pick up in some areas.

811
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: That's because some have more powerful broadcast antennas, because they

812
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: spend more money to build more antennas and use more energy.

813
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 1: So in order to be heard a further distance, you

814
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: need more energy.

815
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 5: Well, I guess maybe I don't understand the scenario that

816
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 5: you're imagining here. Are you imagining like there's an alien

817
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 5: civilization using all this energy, maybe all the energy in

818
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 5: a galaxy, and somehow we can pick up on that,

819
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 5: or is this scenario more specific where you're imagining like,

820
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 5: all right, if there are aliens broadcasting out like hey,

821
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 5: we're here a signal, how much energy would they have

822
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 5: available to put into that so that we could hope

823
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 5: to see it.

824
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: I think Kardashev is imagining the second one that if

825
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: aliens are intentionally sending out messages into the cosmos, how

826
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: powerful could they make those messages? And what kind of

827
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: civilizations could support ridiculously powerful messages that we could even

828
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: hear from across the galaxy or from other galaxies. I mean,

829
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: a civilization that harnessed the entire energy of their galaxy

830
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,280
Speaker 1: could do incredible things, probably including sending very powerful messages

831
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: across the millions of light years between galaxies. But also

832
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: you know, like Galactic Engineering project. I mean, you have

833
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: that much energy available, you can almost do anything.

834
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 5: Right, I guess that's a whole separate question is like,

835
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 5: would they use some of that energy to send out

836
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 5: a signal to other people saying, hey, come check out

837
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 5: our awesome engineering.

838
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean when we write, we're currently using a

839
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: very very tiny fraction of our energy budget to even

840
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: listen to messages from outer space. We're not even really

841
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: sending very many, at least not intentionally. You know, as

842
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: you said before, our use of energy makes us visible

843
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: from other planets, but not from very far away, because

844
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: those messages are not broadcast in like a tight beam

845
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: that's sort of generally diffused, and so you'd have to

846
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: be pretty close to Earth or have very very sensitive

847
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: antennas to even pick up our messages.

848
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 5: And I guess you're also imagining, or karda chef was

849
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 5: imagining the scenario where you're broadcasting blindly, right, Like, if

850
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 5: you're broadcasting blindly in all possible directions and your hope

851
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 5: that somebody listens to it, how much energy would you

852
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 5: need for that, But if you want a more focused communication,

853
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 5: then you wouldn't need that.

854
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: Right, that's exactly right. If you don't know where people are,

855
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: you need to broadcast in every direction, and so the

856
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: power of your message falls very quickly. It goes like

857
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: one over distance squared, just like the brightness of the

858
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: sun falls as you get further and further away from it,

859
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 1: because the Sun is not like focused, like a laser

860
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: beam on your eyeball. And a good thing too. So

861
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: if you're broadcasting your message indiscriminately in every direction, then

862
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: it has to be super powerful for anybody to pick

863
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: it up. You know. As a concrete example, the signals

864
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: that we sent from Arecibo could only be received by

865
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: an Arecibo like telescope if it was less than one

866
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: light year away. And we know that there aren't any

867
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: other solar systems less than a light year away, so

868
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: aliens with our level of technology could not pick up

869
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: our signals even if they were around the closest star.

870
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 5: Interesting, all right, Well, let's get into what this could

871
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 5: mean for our search for extraterrestrial life and whether or

872
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 5: not there are Charadistians in other galaxies. That's a very

873
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 5: important question. But first, let's take another quick break.

874
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

875
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

876
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite,

877
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy

878
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

879
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty That's why they're working

880
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

881
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,439
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

882
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

883
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

884
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 1: the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy

885
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn

886
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: the methane from maneure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

887
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

888
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

889
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

890
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense

891
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

892
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 1: usdairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

893
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 2: Our iHeartRadio Music Festival presented by Capital One, coming back

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899
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906
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 5: Hi.

907
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 9: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

908
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 9: hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a

909
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 9: neuroscientists at Stanford and I've spent my career exploring the

910
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 9: three pound universe. In our heads, We're looking at a

911
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 9: whole new series of episodes this season to understand why

912
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 9: and how our lives look the way they do. Why

913
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 9: does your memory drift so much? Why is it so

914
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 9: hard to keep a secret, When should you not trust

915
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 9: your intuition? Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks?

916
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 9: And why do they love conspiracy theories. I'm hitting these

917
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 9: questions and hundreds more because the more we know about

918
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 9: what's running under the hood, the better we can steer

919
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 9: our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between

920
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 9: your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions.

921
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 9: Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app,

922
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 9: Apple Podcasts or wherever or you get your podcasts.

923
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 6: I'm doctor Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast.

924
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 6: Is the US elections approach? It can feel like we're

925
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 6: angrier and more divided than every but in a new

926
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 6: hopeful season of my podcast, I'll share with the science

927
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 6: it really shows that we're surprisingly more united than most

928
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 6: people think.

929
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 7: We all know something is wrong in our culture and

930
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 7: our politics, and that we need to do better, and

931
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 7: that we can do better.

932
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,240
Speaker 6: With the help of Stanford psychologist Jamiale Zaki, it's really tragic.

933
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 1: If cynicism were appeal, it'd be a poison.

934
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 6: We'll see that our fellow humans, even those we disagree with,

935
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 6: are more generous than we assume.

936
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 10: My assumption, my feeling, my hunch is that a lot

937
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 10: of us are actually looking for a way to disagree

938
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 10: and still be in relationships with each other.

939
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 6: All that on the Happiness Lab, listen on the iHeartRadio app,

940
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 6: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

941
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 5: All right, we're talking about the Cardashians scale, which is

942
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 5: a scale that physicists have invented as a way to

943
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 5: think about how much energy alien civilizations might be consuming

944
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:25,879
Speaker 5: or have available to them to send out a hey

945
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 5: we're here, a signal which we might be able to

946
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 5: pick up, which I guess is important, right because if

947
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 5: we have a whole project called SETI to explore or

948
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 5: to look for alien signals, it would be good to

949
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 5: know if we even have a chance of seeing signals

950
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 5: from other alien civilizations.

951
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: Right, m exactly. And it's a kind of thought experiment

952
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 1: that physicists like to think about. Let's make some simple

953
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: assumptions about the trajectory of civilizations and think about who

954
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: we're looking for Are we looking for a fairly young

955
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: civilization like our own? Are we more likely to only

956
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 1: be able to spot very advanced civilizations? So let's try

957
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: to spend a minute or so thinking about what they

958
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: might look like, how they might communicate, and what technology

959
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: they might have available to them.

960
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 5: Right, And like you said, like if we were to

961
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 5: send a signal out to another story, we would need

962
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 5: a ton of energy because the nearest star system is

963
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 5: more than a light year away, which means we need

964
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 5: a lot of energy. So I guess to see an

965
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 5: alien civilization in another galaxy, or to hope to see

966
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 5: an alien civilization in another galaxy sending out a signal

967
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 5: that they're there, would need to imagine an alien civilization

968
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 5: pretty advanced, right within access to an enormous amount of energy.

969
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: That's right, unless we were extraordinarily lucky and we happened

970
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: to resolve a single star in their galaxy and see

971
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: them do some crazy construction project on it, or they

972
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: were manipulating the star itself to pulse with messages that

973
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: we could resolve. That would require crazy advanced technology and

974
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: access to energy that we can't even imagine. Yeah, some

975
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 1: fraction of all the energy of a galaxy.

976
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 5: And so that's where the Kardashif scale would say. It's

977
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 5: like that's another stage in that scale, which is like,

978
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 5: if you can harness all of the energy in a galaxy,

979
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 5: then maybe you might put some of that energy to

980
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 5: putting out a signal which would make you visible to

981
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 5: aliens or to humans in other galaxies.

982
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, maybe you have a prison planet where you

983
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: put all of your Kardashians and you just want big

984
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: flashing warning signs like do not go here, young civilizations.

985
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 5: I feel like you just took it to another level

986
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 5: against the Kardashians there. Now you're talking about jailing them

987
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 5: in planets. Remember we want them on the podcast. Oh,

988
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 5: that's right, we want the one. Sorry, I'm talking about

989
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 5: a luxurious island just for alien Kardashians. Private planet. Yes,

990
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 5: and you get to hang out with the Lockness Monster and.

991
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 1: Bickfoot also future guests on our podcast.

992
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 5: That's right, Stay tuned, keep listening.

993
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 1: But this kind of thinking lets you imagine the kinds

994
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: of things that aliens might be able to do. If

995
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: you had access to all the energy of your solar

996
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: system or of your galaxy, you could like move stars around.

997
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 1: You could like obliterate planets, you could build new kinds

998
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: of stars nobody had ever seen before. You could have

999
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: a whole new branch of engineering, you know, galaxy engineering.

1000
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, and so that takes us to about stage three

1001
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 5: in the Kardashiv scale, right, that's where you maybe build

1002
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 5: Toller panels around every star in your galaxy. Is there

1003
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 5: a stage four? Can you go bigger than that? Let's

1004
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 5: keep basically speculating.

1005
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 1: You want to extrapolate our extrapolation, Sure, let's do it well.

1006
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: Kardashev ended his extrapolation at stage three, imagining only use

1007
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: of the entire galaxy. But that was in nineteen sixty

1008
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,879
Speaker 1: and it's been a popular topic for people to think about,

1009
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: and so there have been extensions to the Kardashiv scale.

1010
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: Stage four says, what if you could use all the

1011
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 1: energy in the universe.

1012
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,720
Speaker 5: What is in the universe potentially infinite?

1013
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: It is potentially infinite, absolutely, And this stage imagine's not

1014
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: just capturing all of the energy from all the stars

1015
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: in each galaxy, but also somehow tapping into that mis

1016
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: sterious form of energy, dark energy, which is accelerating the

1017
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 1: expansion of the universe and has a much bigger slice

1018
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,720
Speaker 1: of the universe's energy budget than just the paltry matter

1019
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: in stars, which you might remember, accounts for less than

1020
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: five percent of the energy in the universe.

1021
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 5: Right, All the matter in our universe only counts for

1022
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 5: five percent, Right, And there's also dark matter and dark energy.

1023
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 5: Are you saying, like, even if we harness all the

1024
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 5: energy coming out of the stars of a galaxy, and

1025
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 5: even if you take all of the energy in the

1026
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 5: matter of that galaxy, that's still only five percent of

1027
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 5: all the energy available to someone, right.

1028
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so if you want to think big, right,

1029
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 1: then let's attack the biggest slice of the pie. And

1030
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,240
Speaker 1: most of the energy of the universe is in dark energy.

1031
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: Seventy percent of all the energy in the universe. It

1032
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: is now devoted to accelerating the expansion of the universe.

1033
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: If you want to build a really big engineering project,

1034
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: you might as well start with the biggest slice.

1035
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 5: I wonder if maybe dark energy isn't engine in project Daniel.

1036
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,919
Speaker 5: I mean, if as lines we're basically speculating, I'm gonna

1037
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 5: speculate that dark energy is just aliens making the universe bigger.

1038
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 1: Well, that's a really clever idea, but you're not actually

1039
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: the first one to have it. One physicist Zultan Gallantaie

1040
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: argue that if there are civilizations that can do that,

1041
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: they could not be detected because their activities would be

1042
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: indistinguishable from the workings of the universe. We have no

1043
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: baseline to compare them to. Right, we are assuming that

1044
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: the universe is driven mostly by natural processes. But if

1045
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: there are civilizations out there that are type for and

1046
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 1: they've been playing games with the universe, then that's what

1047
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 1: we've been observing this entire time.

1048
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 5: Are you saying that the laws of physics are indistinguishable

1049
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 5: from the workings of a mysterious being. You're making the

1050
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 5: case for God.

1051
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: Basically, Well, these civilizations would have almost godlike powers. We

1052
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: think they would still be constrained by the laws of physics.

1053
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: But remember, we don't know what those laws are. We

1054
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: have no understanding of dark energy. Really, we see that

1055
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: they this is happening, but we do not understand the

1056
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: mechanism for it or what is controlling it. So it

1057
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: is potentially possible that there's an alien civilization out there

1058
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: with some knob and they are driving the expansion of

1059
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: the universe. I mean this is speculation on speculation, absolutely,

1060
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: but yes, we don't understand the mechanism of it, so

1061
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: it could be down to some alien civilization.

1062
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 5: This is a production of speculation. So what we're saying,

1063
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 5: we're going deep.

1064
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are more levels.

1065
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 5: What what could be more powerful than all the energy

1066
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 5: in the universe?

1067
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: Well, Stage five says, use all the energy in the multiverse? Right,

1068
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,399
Speaker 1: Why be limited to a single universe? What Apparently there's

1069
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 1: an infinite number of possible universes out there for you

1070
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 1: to harness and manipulate.

1071
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, why not, let's go there. So this is asserting

1072
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 5: that the multiverse exists and that somehow some alien civilization

1073
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 5: has access to all of these different universes and all

1074
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:04,240
Speaker 5: have the ability to harness their energy.

1075
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: You sound incredulous, and that's very good reason, because it's

1076
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 1: a pretty ridiculous idea. You're right, we don't even know

1077
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 1: if the multiverse exists, Like, are there other universes out there?

1078
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 1: If the multiverse does exist, is it the flavor of

1079
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 1: multiverse that would allow us to communicate with other universes?

1080
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: There are some in which these universes are forever separate

1081
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: and can never communicate with each other, And so that

1082
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: would prevent any alien civilization from harnessing them. For example,

1083
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: the quantum multiverse from the Many World's interpretation of quantum

1084
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 1: mechanics says that the universe splits every time a quantum

1085
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: object has to make a decision. But you can't ever

1086
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: access those other universes. But in principle, there are versions

1087
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,240
Speaker 1: of the multiverse where the other universes could interact with ours,

1088
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: and so in principle, some aliens might figure out how

1089
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: to manipulate those portals and somehow have a cross universe civilization.

1090
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 5: I guess, though, well two things. First of all, I

1091
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 5: guess if you're using all the energy that in the universe,

1092
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 5: wouldn't you be taking away that energy? Like if you're

1093
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 5: somehow using the dark energy in our universe, wouldn't that

1094
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 5: stop the expansion of the universe potentially?

1095
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: Or maybe the dark energy is just like a waste

1096
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: product of something else they're doing. Maybe this is just

1097
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: like the crumbs on their table. I mean, let's think

1098
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 1: really big.

1099
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 5: I see you're saying the expansion of the universe is

1100
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 5: a byproduct of whatever nefarious or maybe or I guess

1101
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 5: we can't judge, pre judge, but whatever, you know, thing

1102
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 5: it is they're doing with the inherent energy of the universe.

1103
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 5: Is that what you're saying, like, maybe there's something deeper

1104
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 5: than dark energy, and dark energy is just like the

1105
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 5: smog of whatever process they're using to steal the use

1106
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 5: the energy of the universe.

1107
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I'm just trying to anticipate what's going to

1108
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 1: happen in season sixty million when we're only on season

1109
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,399
Speaker 1: five thousand, so obviously there's a lot of dot dot

1110
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: dot happening.

1111
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 5: But yeah, potentially, are you equating us to like online

1112
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 5: forums where people are posting fan theories. Is that all

1113
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 5: physics is theories? I think I saw that in a

1114
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:03,720
Speaker 5: comic strip somewhere.

1115
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, that's x cacc All theories are just fan

1116
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: fiction about the universe, And in some sense, yes, that's

1117
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 1: what's happening here. We're trying to imagine what an alien

1118
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 1: civilization might be, like, what are the limits on it? Essentially,

1119
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 1: we're not suggesting that there are aliens out there manipulating

1120
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: the universe and controlling it and that dark energy is

1121
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 1: just their pollution. But we're just trying to push up

1122
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 1: against the boundaries of our thinking and wondering what is

1123
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: possible in the end. Do we have arguments that suggest

1124
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: that that would be impossible, Because if not, let's keep

1125
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 1: an open mind to what might be happening out there.

1126
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 5: The second thing I want to say is that I

1127
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 5: feel like there would have been a fun sequel to

1128
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 5: the matrix to find out that actually our universe is

1129
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,720
Speaker 5: just like a battery for somebody else's universe.

1130
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: Ooh, the meta matrix. Yeah, the multi matrix, the multi

1131
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: meta matrix. I like it.

1132
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 5: Pitch that one, all right, Well, this Cardasshire scale is

1133
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 5: a pretty interesting way to think about aliens, what they

1134
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,439
Speaker 5: might be doing, how big they can get, or I guess,

1135
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 5: you know, just pushing the idea of what can a

1136
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 5: sentient species do in the universe, like what's possible for

1137
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:10,720
Speaker 5: a sentient entity or entities?

1138
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it leaves completely aside the very important question

1139
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: of what as sentient entity should do with the universe.

1140
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 1: If you are capable of building Dyson's spheres that completely

1141
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: blot out every star in the sky, should you is

1142
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 1: that the right use for your technology? Should you be

1143
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: measuring your civilization by how much energy of the universe

1144
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: you can capture for your own purposes? Maybe alien civilizations

1145
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 1: have taken another route trying to live harmoniously with the

1146
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 1: universe rather than trying to manipulate it for their own ends.

1147
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 5: Wait, are you calling God an alien? Technically a god

1148
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 5: would be an alien, right unless they were born on Earth.

1149
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,280
Speaker 1: I don't know how you can have the word technically

1150
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 1: god and alien in the same sentence. I just don't

1151
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: get it.

1152
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 5: I don't get it either. But this is a natural

1153
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 5: science this podcast, so I think that's allowed.

1154
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: Technically Bigfoot is a lockedness monster.

1155
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 5: That's right. Technically it's all natural science because it's being

1156
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,280
Speaker 5: talked about naturally by scientists, so therefore it is natural science.

1157
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is sort of the way that physicists

1158
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: think about civilizations. How much energy do we have? How

1159
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: much energy is available to us? It's, of course not

1160
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: the only way to think about civilizations. And one thing

1161
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: we're trying to do in our civilization is actually tamped

1162
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 1: down our energy use. Right. Well, we talked to earlier

1163
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: about how every year we increase our energy use by

1164
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: three percent and that might take us to Stage one civilization.

1165
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: Don't think about that like a goal. It's not like

1166
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 1: a badge we're going to put on our civilization. Hey, look,

1167
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: we increased our energy use by ten thousand. Yay, right,

1168
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: that would probably be a bad thing for life on

1169
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: Earth if we were using so much energy.

1170
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, it would be bad if we were using all

1171
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 5: the energy in the universe and then stopping expansion and

1172
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 5: then accidentally, oops, we caused the universe to contract and

1173
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 5: crunch down.

1174
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: Was that us who made the whole universe collapse into

1175
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: a black hole? Our apologies. Please take this voucher and

1176
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: try civilization in another one of our multiverses.

1177
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 5: We should have gone green.

1178
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: Much sooner.

1179
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 5: All right, Well, it's definitely fun and interesting to think

1180
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 5: about these wild and crazy scenarios. But as you said,

1181
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 5: it is a little bit part of science to imagine

1182
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 5: what could be possible, because you might come up with

1183
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 5: something that you didn't think about before that maybe shapes

1184
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 5: the future experiment or how you look for answers in

1185
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 5: the universe.

1186
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. And while we sometimes think about natural science as

1187
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: very rigorous and found it in experiments and high precision,

1188
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: an important part of it which is just creative and

1189
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 1: exploratory and wondering about what is possible. Sometimes the most

1190
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: fun parts of science are when you're tackling a really

1191
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: big question that nobody's tackled before, and so you have

1192
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: to begin with a few crazy, fairly simple ideas.

1193
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 5: Many things just fun to talk about aliens, which I think,

1194
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 5: let's be honest, Daniel, is really the main point of

1195
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 5: your choosing this topic.

1196
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 1: Yes, I always do enjoy talking about aliens, and I

1197
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: hope that the aliens listening to this podcast enjoy our

1198
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 1: baseless speculation about their lives and motives.

1199
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 5: That's right, and as the Kardashians are aliens, they're also

1200
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 5: welcome to come on the podcast.

1201
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: Open invitation to any Kardashian or alien and or alien.

1202
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 5: All right, well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for

1203
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 5: joining us, see you next time.

1204
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

1205
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

1206
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 5: I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast,

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Speaker 5: Part Time Genius, but even though we've done over two

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