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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,

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Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big

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Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they

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Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, Wherever

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Speaker 1: you are in the world, it is so great to

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Speaker 1: have you here, so great to have you here for

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Speaker 1: another episode, one that I'm very very excited about. This week,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about gossip, something a little bit different, a

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Speaker 1: little bit unusual, but really fascinating. Nonetheless, and honestly, when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about our twenties, it's something that is bound

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Speaker 1: to be part of our lives. Since researching this topic,

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Speaker 1: since thinking about it, I have come to realize and

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Speaker 1: begun to notice how much of my own daily conversations

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Speaker 1: are made up of talking about other people or details

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Speaker 1: of their lives. And I'm sure that it's the same

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Speaker 1: for a lot of us. We may say that we

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Speaker 1: don't gossip. We may, you know, try and say that

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Speaker 1: we're above it, that we don't talk about people behind

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Speaker 1: their backs, or talk about the things that are going

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Speaker 1: on in their lives. But let's be real, everyone does it.

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Speaker 1: Gossip is everywhere, even in places that we don't recognize it,

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Speaker 1: and it's because it is part of our human nature,

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Speaker 1: part of what makes us social beings in very vast

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Speaker 1: social networks across different groups and communities. But I think

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Speaker 1: what I've come to realize is that there are different

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Speaker 1: levels and different types of gossip, and some are obviously

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Speaker 1: more insidious than others. You know, there's a difference between

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Speaker 1: sharing a story about a friend and their trip to

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Speaker 1: Europe or their work troubles or what they're up to,

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Speaker 1: and saying something spiteful that you know is not true.

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Speaker 1: And I think understanding that distinction is really crucial, along

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Speaker 1: with some of the reasons and the factors that drive

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Speaker 1: us to engage in gossip, whether it's negative or positive.

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Speaker 1: So I really want to dissect the psychology behind why

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Speaker 1: we gossip, why it's actually a fairly typical and normal

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Speaker 1: thing for us to do, and the kind of different

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Speaker 1: types of gossip that we will see in our lives

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Speaker 1: and we find ourselves engaging in. I also want to

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Speaker 1: touch on the role of gossip in our twenties and

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Speaker 1: also how this type of social communication we might call

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Speaker 1: it has changed as we've begun sharing so much of

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Speaker 1: our lives on social media and exposing ourselves to potential

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Speaker 1: criticism and gossip online. And I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: how we can stop engaging in this if we would

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Speaker 1: like to, which I hope that we would want to,

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Speaker 1: how we can stop engaging in the more toxic kinds

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Speaker 1: of gossip, and how this kind of gossiping creating rumors,

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Speaker 1: maybe breaking the trust of friends. It's rooted in a

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Speaker 1: lot of insecurity, a lot of negative self esteem. Gossip,

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Speaker 1: as I've come to realize whilst I've been reading into

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Speaker 1: this is so nuanced and so fascinating and, like I said,

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Speaker 1: really crucial to discuss. In our twenties. I'm sure we've

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Speaker 1: all had a few moments talking with our friends about

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Speaker 1: something we knew we weren't supposed to know about. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you've stretched the truth a little bit to sensationalize a story.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you've had someone say something about you that you

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Speaker 1: know isn't true. And you know what, maybe it's uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: to admit to ourselves because gossip definitely gets a bad rap,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's actually really normal. It's something that is

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Speaker 1: really built into our society, into our human nature, and

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Speaker 1: I just think that it goes to show how much

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Speaker 1: of our lives is really built around how we think

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Speaker 1: about other people, and built around the relationships that we

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Speaker 1: share with others and our opinions on what they're doing

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Speaker 1: and their opinions on us. I will say some of

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Speaker 1: the takes, some of the things we'll discuss in this

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Speaker 1: episode you might not agree with, and that's totally fine.

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Speaker 1: But I want to really bring a different perspective to

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Speaker 1: this concept and discuss some of the science, add a

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Speaker 1: bit of color into the conversation, and hopefully, like we

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Speaker 1: always aim to do, get you thinking about the role

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Speaker 1: gossip may play in your own life. So, my lovely listeners,

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Speaker 1: wherever you are, whatever time it may be, strap in,

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Speaker 1: get ready, because today we're going to talk about the

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Speaker 1: psychology behind gossip and the hidden role it has to

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Speaker 1: play in our twenties. So gossip actually plays a really

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Speaker 1: important role in our society and in fairly unexpected ways

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Speaker 1: as well. Now, I want to make a quick distinction here,

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Speaker 1: or maybe a quick disclaimer. Gossip definitely gets a bad rap,

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Speaker 1: and I think for some really really good reasons, but

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Speaker 1: also because of some of that confusion of what we

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Speaker 1: are really talking about when we refer to gossip, I

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Speaker 1: think when we typically think about the meaning of this word,

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Speaker 1: we often get it confused with slander or lying, malicious rumors,

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Speaker 1: tearing others down. And there's certainly a dangerous element of

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Speaker 1: gossip that gets mixed up in those things, especially when

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Speaker 1: we use our words to hurt others or to look

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Speaker 1: better in front of people we want to impress, which

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Speaker 1: is honestly never a good idea, or when we only

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Speaker 1: ever have bad things to say about other people. And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure we've all met those people. Maybe you've been

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Speaker 1: that person at some stage in your life who finds

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Speaker 1: themselves constantly saying negative things about other people, things you

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Speaker 1: know aren't true, and often it is to make yourself

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Speaker 1: feel better. But I want to rewrite that conception. I

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Speaker 1: want to rewrite that definition for what we're talking about today,

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Speaker 1: and what I mean when I refer to gossip throughout

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Speaker 1: this episode is a way of sharing information by speaking

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Speaker 1: in terms of others, or speaking of others in a

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Speaker 1: way which is intended to convey a message, a story,

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Speaker 1: a lesson, or an observation. In the absence of that

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Speaker 1: other person, you know, it most likely involves details about

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Speaker 1: another person. They don't always have to be negative details

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Speaker 1: or private details, but details nonetheless, And I guess you

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Speaker 1: can make a personal judgment about whether that is in

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Speaker 1: itself wrong. Regardless of your opinion or how you define gossiping,

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Speaker 1: we know that it exists. In a twenty nineteen study

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Speaker 1: on the prevalence of gossip, these researchers, they found that

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Speaker 1: on average, fifty two minutes of our day is spent gossiping,

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Speaker 1: but only about a quarter of that is actually negative.

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Speaker 1: And in another study, I think it was in the

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Speaker 1: late nineties, ninety eight ninety seven, this researcher, Robin Dunbar,

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Speaker 1: who's going to come up quite a bit in this episode,

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Speaker 1: he suggested that gossip actually accounted for up to sixty

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Speaker 1: five percent of what we talk about with other people.

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Speaker 1: So we obviously know that it is a part of

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Speaker 1: the fabriac of every society, even those that no longer exist.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm sure there was heaps of gossip going

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Speaker 1: around about Julius, Caesar and Cleopatra back in the day.

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Speaker 1: So what I want to talk about is why it occurs.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the evolutionary reasons, The psychological explanations

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Speaker 1: behind why we gossip. Anthropologists and psychologists alike. They've been

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Speaker 1: asking this question for some time, and they have a

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Speaker 1: few suggestions or opinions as to why gossip it might

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Speaker 1: actually be a good thing and it's emerged to serve

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Speaker 1: a social and evolutionary purpose. The book Sapiens by Yavao

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Speaker 1: Noah Harari it's a really good read if you're interested

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Speaker 1: in this topic, and it explains how gossiping began to

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Speaker 1: take place as humans began to construct bigger societies and

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Speaker 1: develop broader social networks. As we moved away from small tribes,

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Speaker 1: often in a hunter in gathering or agricultural environment, and

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Speaker 1: into larger villages and then cities, Gossiping was a way

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Speaker 1: to create in groups with those that we trusted and

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Speaker 1: to inform those people who could be trusted and who

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Speaker 1: could not. Gossiping is essentially a way of conveying what

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Speaker 1: we see as important social information, and another perspective from

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Speaker 1: this same evolutionary psychologist Robin Dunbar He suggests that gossip

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Speaker 1: is actually a means of survival because it allows individuals

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Speaker 1: to share valuable information about those in our social networks

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Speaker 1: with a large group. You know, this could include warnings

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Speaker 1: about dangerous or treacherous behavior that may jeopardize the group.

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Speaker 1: And as societies become larger, we couldn't observe every individual

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Speaker 1: member's behavior like we were able to do in those intimate,

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Speaker 1: smaller families and tribal groups, So gossip became a way

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Speaker 1: to monitor other's behavior and therefore maintain social cohesion. I

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Speaker 1: think this sounds very detached from what we perceive as

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Speaker 1: gossip like these days. You know, the very mean girl

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Speaker 1: esque picture of people sharing malicious rumors around the cafeteria table.

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Speaker 1: But even in this scenario, the underlying evolutionary principle remains

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Speaker 1: gossip is nothing more than an advanced warning system for

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Speaker 1: antisocial behavior, you know, or freeloaders who may be taking

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Speaker 1: advantage of the group or causing it harm. Some other researchers,

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Speaker 1: they've also suggested that gossiping benefits us in a way

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Speaker 1: by providing us with an implicit guide of what is

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Speaker 1: socially acceptable and what's not good. I think a really

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Speaker 1: good example of this is people who cheat on their partners.

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Speaker 1: I would say for me and my close friends and

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Speaker 1: many others, we collectively agree that cheating on your partner

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Speaker 1: is wrong. If I come to my friend, you know,

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Speaker 1: really outraged because someone we mutually know has cheated on

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Speaker 1: their long term partner. By discussing this, we demonstrate to

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Speaker 1: each other that we perceive that cheating is wrong. And

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Speaker 1: through that process of what we may perceive as gossiping

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Speaker 1: about that individual, we have been able to establish between

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Speaker 1: us social norms about the kind of behavior we think

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Speaker 1: of as immoral. And as this gossip spreads through a

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Speaker 1: group of people, we get a sense of the collective

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Speaker 1: criticism that also warns others about behavior that is not

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Speaker 1: going to be tolerated and which may be met by

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Speaker 1: negative backlash or at least negative gossip, which in turn

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Speaker 1: does a lot of reputational damage. And you know what

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Speaker 1: matters more in a large social group than our reputation.

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Speaker 1: I think something else to consider, and which you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of puts this explanation into a new perspective, is

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Speaker 1: that we never actually tend to gossip about things that

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Speaker 1: we see as acceptable. For example, you know, if we're

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Speaker 1: talking about a friend's really amazing emotion at work, most

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Speaker 1: people wouldn't see that as gossip. I would still say

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Speaker 1: that it is. But even by talking about positive things

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Speaker 1: and giving someone praise. In this way, we are once

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Speaker 1: again conferring our approval upon behaviors that we see as

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Speaker 1: acceptable and something to celebrate, or something that we deem

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Speaker 1: as unacceptable. So far, we've kind of discussed how gossip

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Speaker 1: helps with the exchange of social information and informs us

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Speaker 1: on social norms within our society and what is not

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Speaker 1: acceptable behavior. But I want to offer one more opinion

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Speaker 1: on the evolutionary and psychological reasons behind why gossip is

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Speaker 1: so commonplace. And this theory is that it actually creates

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Speaker 1: stronger bonds between people and it creates trust. I saw

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Speaker 1: a TikTok about this the other day in which the

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Speaker 1: person describes how gossiping with someone about a topic, be

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Speaker 1: that cheating like we said before, or some other unsavory behavior,

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Speaker 1: is essentially conveying to that other person that you're not

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Speaker 1: going to do that to them. Gossip is a means

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Speaker 1: of bonding, of chitchat or conversation that is going to

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Speaker 1: build trust between members of a group. And this potential

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Speaker 1: evolutionary benefit it's actually been backed up by quite a

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Speaker 1: few pieces of research in recent years. For example, there

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Speaker 1: was a twenty fourteen study and it found that beneficial

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Speaker 1: levels of gossip. They actually helped strengthen social bonds, They

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Speaker 1: improved cooperation, and they helped resolve conflict. So there's that

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Speaker 1: something interesting. What all these conclusions I think they have

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Speaker 1: in common is that they see gossip as not inherently negative.

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Speaker 1: It's even something that is beneficial and, like we said,

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Speaker 1: improves cooperation and communication. And actually, I want to give

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Speaker 1: one final theory here because I discovered this whilst doing

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Speaker 1: a bit of a deep dive and I think it's

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Speaker 1: worth a mention, particularly for my female listeners. I came

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Speaker 1: across this book called All About Love by Belle Hooks,

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Speaker 1: an amazing book by the way, but essentially what she

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Speaker 1: concludes is that gossip is also uniquely important for women

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Speaker 1: because traditionally women haven't had a major prominent voice in

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Speaker 1: society or in public's places. So they have employed gossip

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Speaker 1: in previous decades, in previous centuries as a way of

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Speaker 1: inserting their opinion in a way that was deemed as acceptable.

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Speaker 1: So there's another perspective. Take it with a grain of salt.

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Speaker 1: I just thought it was so interesting, and you know,

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Speaker 1: so far we have had a major focus on how

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Speaker 1: gossip has found its place in society where it's come from,

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Speaker 1: and through this discussion we've really highlighted some of those

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Speaker 1: pro social elements. But as we all know, I don't

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Speaker 1: feel like I need to say this, but I will.

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Speaker 1: Gossip is not all cooperation and information sharing. It's not

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Speaker 1: all about building a harmonious society. It can do a

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Speaker 1: lot of damage and it has some very insidious and

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Speaker 1: dangerous undertones, I would say, which I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about in this next kind of section of the podcast.

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Speaker 1: The negative connotations associated with gossiping. They haven't come from nowhere.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure we all know how it feels to be

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Speaker 1: on the receiving end of a story about ourselves that

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Speaker 1: we know is not true, and it's really hurtful to

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Speaker 1: realize that there are people out there who think that

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Speaker 1: it is. That's the downside of malicious gossip, and it

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Speaker 1: can make us rethink the times in our lives when

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Speaker 1: we may have said something that's gone a bit too

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Speaker 1: far or been a bit too cruel about someone else.

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Speaker 1: That's one of those lessons I think we learn in

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Speaker 1: our twenties how our social network works can sometimes not

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Speaker 1: always be truthful, and how not everything we hear about

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Speaker 1: other people is truthful either the same way that I'm

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Speaker 1: sure there are things that have been said about you

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Speaker 1: that are false. In many ways, I think gossip can

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Speaker 1: be a bit of a guilty pleasure for many of us,

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Speaker 1: especially when we know that it's not creating the harmonious

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Speaker 1: society that many evolutionary psychologists claim that it does. And

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Speaker 1: there have been studies that show that the way our

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Speaker 1: brains react to gossip is with a bit of guilt,

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Speaker 1: but also with a bit of enjoyment. This twenty fifteen study,

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Speaker 1: using brain imaging techniques, it found that hearing about celebrity

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Speaker 1: scandals or negative gossip about our friends, it made us

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Speaker 1: feel more agitated, but it also made us feel excited.

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Speaker 1: It's even been associated with a spike in dopamine levels,

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Speaker 1: but that's often short lived and it's followed by a

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Speaker 1: crash and stress and mental strain when we hear rumors

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Speaker 1: about ourselves. This is often when this reaction is worse.

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Speaker 1: We can experience a heightened sense of anxiety, especially when

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Speaker 1: we feel that whatever's been said has had a negative

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Speaker 1: impact in our reputation, and this can be followed by

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Speaker 1: bipanic by exhaustion and depression. Heightened levels of guilt and

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Speaker 1: so many more emotional consequences. You know, people who have

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Speaker 1: been the subject of gossip tend to show an increased

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Speaker 1: risk of demonstrating poor self confidence, poorer mental health, lowered

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Speaker 1: personal and professional performance, and even sometimes eating disorders, depending

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Speaker 1: on the rumors that have been spread about them. From this,

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Speaker 1: it seems that we tend to like hearing gossip about

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Speaker 1: other people and engaging in that activity, but this experience,

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Speaker 1: it isn't as positive or exciting when we're on the

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Speaker 1: receiving end, And I think this is really something to

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Speaker 1: stop and pause on. We may like gossip, we may

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Speaker 1: find that it brings us closer to others, but when

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Speaker 1: we use other people to fuel our own entertainment or

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Speaker 1: to sensationalize their lives, it's really important to consider how

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Speaker 1: you would feel if you heard someone else was saying

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Speaker 1: those things about you. How would you feel from you know,

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Speaker 1: personal anecdotal experience. I think we know the answer to that.

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Speaker 1: It's it feels awful, it feels terrible, it's really really shitty,

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Speaker 1: And I think this is when our empathy needs to

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Speaker 1: kick in. You know, yes, it feels good, but where

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Speaker 1: exactly do we draw the line? I think there is

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Speaker 1: a huge distinction between gossiping and rumors or bullying, and

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Speaker 1: maybe that nuance isn't very obvious because I think both

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Speaker 1: are things that are sensitive and shared between others. But

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Speaker 1: rumors are often false, they're unverified, they're nasty, and they

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Speaker 1: change each time that you know that they're retold. Whereas

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Speaker 1: the definition of gossip that we provided earlier, we would

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Speaker 1: hope that it's rooted in fact and it's about sharing

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Speaker 1: information that you think is going to be valuable or

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Speaker 1: help someone else. That doesn't mean that it still needs

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Speaker 1: to be shared, obviously, That as a subjective conclusion that

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Speaker 1: we come to. And I think if we are conveying

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Speaker 1: social information because we have a concern for someone or

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Speaker 1: for the purpose of knowledge, like sharing you know, or

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Speaker 1: for the purpose of warning someone you know, or trying

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Speaker 1: to convey a message, you know, sharing out our salary differences,

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Speaker 1: or talking to someone about a nasty boss that you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't work you know you should work with, maybe that's justified,

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Speaker 1: right it has a positive social impact, it's something that's

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Speaker 1: going to help someone else, it's kind of informing them.

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Speaker 1: But when it's purposely to hurt someone, to undermine their

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Speaker 1: reputation when it's not factual, and we know that, I

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Speaker 1: think we're entering into into dangerous territory. Gossip can also

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Speaker 1: be used to isolate people at times, and to create

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Speaker 1: in groups or networks of people based on information they

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Speaker 1: share about others, and I think that can also be

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Speaker 1: incredibly harmful, even if it can sometimes be our natural

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Speaker 1: instinct to try and find these intimate circles and build

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Speaker 1: trust with them through gossip and other means. And because

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Speaker 1: gossip is so ubiquitous, it can be hard not to

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Speaker 1: fall into that habit, especially when other people are doing

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Speaker 1: it around us. That obviously carries some very strong peer

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Speaker 1: pressure along with it, particularly now that we recognize that

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Speaker 1: gossip can be used as a form of bonding in

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Speaker 1: some social situations. You know, you don't want to feel

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Speaker 1: left out. You don't want to be the person who says,

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Speaker 1: I don't really want to talk about that, because maybe

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Speaker 1: part of you knows that the next minute they'll probably

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Speaker 1: you know, be talking about you. But stop and consider

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Speaker 1: why it is that you feel the need to share

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Speaker 1: that information. Why do you feel the need to engage

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Speaker 1: in that kind of conversation. You know there are there

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Speaker 1: are good reasons, and there are evolutionary reasons that we

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Speaker 1: can't always control. But it is you know, is it

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Speaker 1: really necessary in that moment or is there a guilty

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Speaker 1: pleasure you're deriving from it because you know that it's wrong,

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Speaker 1: because you know that something contained in what you're saying

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Speaker 1: is scandalous or perhaps not even true. I think we

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Speaker 1: owe ourselves a degree of accountability in those instances, to

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Speaker 1: stop and reflect and put yourself in the other person's shoes.

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Speaker 1: This is especially crucial when it comes to online discourse,

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Speaker 1: an online gossip. Your digital footprint is a very real thing,

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Speaker 1: and it's very real for those around you as well,

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Speaker 1: and for all of us. You know, the comments you leave,

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Speaker 1: the things you say online, even in private DMS or messages,

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Speaker 1: they're not easily erasable, and they're not easily forgotten either.

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Speaker 1: And I really want to talk on this for a bit.

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Speaker 1: You know, how has gossip evolved with the arrival and

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Speaker 1: dominance of social media and the Internet in our lives?

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Speaker 1: As I think things like Instagram and TikTok and Facebook

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Speaker 1: even have risen, our lives have become a lot more

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Speaker 1: available to those around us. And as we've started using

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Speaker 1: social media more. In recent years, the opportunity for critique

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Speaker 1: and also gossip has also increased. This has changed the

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Speaker 1: way that we talk about others because we can receive

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Speaker 1: more input and information on the rumors or the gossip

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Speaker 1: that people are sharing to us. It's also allowed for

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Speaker 1: information to move so much faster. This is really interesting

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Speaker 1: when we consider one of those explanations I gave before

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Speaker 1: You Know about how the evolutionary role of gossip was

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Speaker 1: to moderate the behavior of large groups of people, where

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Speaker 1: there are certain people who may never come into contact

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Speaker 1: with one another. Now, well, we can find almost anyone

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Speaker 1: online and we can obtain a lot of information about

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Speaker 1: someone from their online presence, so that previous conceptualization of

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Speaker 1: gossip it may no longer be applicable because we are

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Speaker 1: able to keep track of what others are doing, not

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Speaker 1: just through word of mouth and not just through gossip.

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Speaker 1: And further to that, I think social media means the

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Speaker 1: we're able to moderate people's behavior differently and say things

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Speaker 1: more frequently that we know may not be true. Something

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Speaker 1: I really couldn't stop thinking about when I was considering

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Speaker 1: this topic and was considering the relationship between gossip and

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Speaker 1: social media is cancel culture. I think cancel culture, you know,

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Speaker 1: in itself, deserves an entire episode, honestly, because it would

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Speaker 1: be so fascinating, Like the psychological explanations behind that would

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Speaker 1: just be endless, would be so intriguing. But maybe for

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Speaker 1: another day. I just think that social media has allowed

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Speaker 1: rumors and gossip to quickly become fact, especially when enough

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Speaker 1: people engage and share information around. Have you ever seen,

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Speaker 1: you know, those things where something that's unconfirmed suddenly becomes

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Speaker 1: news because someone's made a TikTok about it, or you know,

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Speaker 1: someone's made an Instagram post or commented something. The opinions

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Speaker 1: and observations that we previously shared offline that we see

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Speaker 1: as gossip, they now have a place online. And a

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Speaker 1: place online means that information has shared so much faster,

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Speaker 1: and it's taken out of context and conveyed between multiple

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Speaker 1: groups of people countries even so quickly, and it's really

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Speaker 1: difficult to erase. And how much you know and how

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Speaker 1: often do we actually take a step back to really

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Speaker 1: consider the truth behind the things that we see online.

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Speaker 1: It may be true, it may be a way of

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Speaker 1: promoting social norms, or promoting accountability or correcting people's behavior.

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Speaker 1: The same way that gossip used to do. But I

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Speaker 1: think it's a lot more complicated than that, and I

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Speaker 1: think sometimes the truth of the matter can be taken

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Speaker 1: out of context. That's where social media can be particularly harmful,

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Speaker 1: especially when we think about gossip and we think about

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Speaker 1: how we share information with others that may at times

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Speaker 1: not be true and that may at times be a

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00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: little bit nasty cyberbulling. Okay, that's another thing I really

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Speaker 1: want to talk about, because I think it's another element

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Speaker 1: that is really important when we consider this conversation, When

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Speaker 1: we consider the role of gossip in our twenties and

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Speaker 1: in our kind of online lives, gossip can really become

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Speaker 1: a tsunami of falsity, in a tsunami of cruelty, and

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Speaker 1: when that is directed at us online, it can really

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Speaker 1: feel like there is no escape at all. You know,

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Speaker 1: when we were children, whatever was happening at school, whatever

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Speaker 1: people said about us when we were home, we could

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00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: switch off and we didn't have to hear it, and

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00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have to be faced with it. But now,

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Speaker 1: you know, I always think about kids that are in

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Speaker 1: primary school or high school now who are experiencing some

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Speaker 1: level of bully, and you know how terrible that would

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Speaker 1: be because everywhere you go, you have the Internet and

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Speaker 1: you have your phone, and people can say whatever they

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Speaker 1: want with very little accountability. Those things that people say

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Speaker 1: about us, they follow us online, and that is so horrendous.

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Speaker 1: So I think our understanding of how gossip has evolved,

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Speaker 1: in what function it serves in today's society, it should

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Speaker 1: really force us to reconsider how we use the internet

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Speaker 1: or the conversations that we have with our friends, and

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Speaker 1: whether the information where sharing is really necessary. You know,

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Speaker 1: maybe it is time to reframe and rethink society's relationship

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Speaker 1: with gossip. But with it being so commonplace, how can

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Speaker 1: we retrain and recondition ourselves to not engage in this

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Speaker 1: time of information sharing or to stay in our own lane.

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Speaker 1: As one of my good friends says, well, I had

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00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: to look into this as well. You know, this show is,

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00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, always focused on agency

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Speaker 1: and the ways that we can improve our lives. So

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Speaker 1: maybe one way that we can improve our lives is

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Speaker 1: to break away from gossip, regardless of some of the

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Speaker 1: social benefits that psychologists and anthropologists have recognized. So I

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00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: had a little look into this, and you know, like

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Speaker 1: I said, I had begun to be, you know, be

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00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: more aware of my own conversations and some of the

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00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: things that were said to me and that I've even said,

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Speaker 1: and think about the implications that might have for my

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Speaker 1: relationships and my relationship with particularly other people. The first

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00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: thing that I think is really important if we're thinking

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Speaker 1: about how we can stop gossiping or particularly if you know,

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00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: stop sharing things or being malicious, is really considering why

434
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: do we feel the need to say these things? Why

435
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: do we feel the need to fill our conversations or

436
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: to fill silent space with information about other people? Yes,

437
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: as a social component, but sometimes it's also insecurity. Maybe

438
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: you feel that the person you're talking to, you know,

439
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: you guys don't really have much to talk about, and

440
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: so what's more entertaining to talk about than what other

441
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 1: people are doing. It takes the focus off of both

442
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: of you, right, you know, maybe you're just insecure about

443
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: something in your own life, and you find that talking

444
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: about other people's problems makes you feel a lot better.

445
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: You know, maybe your relationship isn't going that well, so

446
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: talking about the ways that other people's relationships might not

447
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: be going well either, or maybe suffering alleviate some of

448
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: that stress for you. You know, gossiping is a really way,

449
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: is a really amazing way to alleviate stress because I

450
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: think a lot of the time we're focused on our

451
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: own problems, and we're focused on our own mistakes, and

452
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: it's easy to not look in a mirror and to

453
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: instead look to other people and think about their mistakes

454
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: rather than our own. So in many ways, I think

455
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: it's important to stop and consider why is it that

456
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: we feel the need to say those things? Why do

457
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: we feel the need to engage in negative gossip. Secondly,

458
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: it's important to have empathy. Don't rush to judgment. Don't

459
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: rush to judge other people. Think about yourself in their

460
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: situation before you say anything, and question what you've heard.

461
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: You know, is that really true? Would you like it

462
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: if someone said that about yourself? And also what would

463
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: you have done in that situation. Maybe what you're hearing

464
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: is completely factual. Maybe it is something that you don't

465
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: agree with, but we never really know the full story,

466
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: and sometimes it's important to have empathy for those people.

467
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: Recognize that people make mistakes and maybe they don't want

468
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: everyone talking about it. You know, I've done embarrassing things

469
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: before and I cringe them, and I think, you know,

470
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: how embarrassing was that. And sometimes it's been in the

471
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: privacy of my own home, but sometimes it's been in

472
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: front of other people. And I would hate for people

473
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: to still have that impression of me, or you know,

474
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: to think of me that way, or to be sharing

475
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: those embarrassing moments with others. Notice how you feel after

476
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: your gossip. Maybe you and your friends have sat down

477
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: for coffee or something like that, and you've been going

478
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: on and on and on about an old friend from

479
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: high school and something that she's posted online, or some

480
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: kind of gossip or judgment that you have. How do

481
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: you feel after that? Do you feel positive? Do you

482
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: feel good? I'm guessing you probably don't. I'm guessing you

483
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: probably feel kind of a negative energy within you. You

484
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: kind of feel a bit drained because emotionally and unconsciously

485
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: you know that it probably wasn't the right thing to say,

486
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: It probably wasn't the truth, and recognizing that feeling, noticing

487
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: how you feel afterwards is a really great way to

488
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: reframe your behavior and reconsider your own relationship with gossip

489
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: and how you feel after talking with other people about

490
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: the details of others' lives, I think also, so only

491
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: convey what is crucial. From this episode, maybe you've taken

492
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: away that gossip is pretty normal, and I would agree obviously.

493
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: I think that it is a normal social and evolutionary

494
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: reaction to our communities and to our societies. It's a

495
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: really crucial way that we share information. But when we

496
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: decide to share details about someone else's lives, is this

497
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: information actually important and is it the right person to

498
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: be sharing it with? You know, in cases where we

499
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: might be seeing, you know, I use that example that

500
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: I gave before about a boss who's really mean or

501
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: really rude and talking to one of your colleagues and saying, oh,

502
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: you know, they're you know, a little bit rude and

503
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: they can be really strange and they're not particularly nice,

504
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: so maybe watch out or try not to work with them.

505
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: That might be important information to share because it's warning them,

506
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: it's giving them social information that they need to make

507
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: to you don't make a decision. But in other instances,

508
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: I don't think it's as crucial as that, So really

509
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: think about why it is that you feel the need

510
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: to share that information and only convey what is really important. Finally,

511
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: be more mindful about the quality of your conversations. There

512
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: are good conversations, there are bad conversations, there are everything

513
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: in between. But like I said before, sometimes when we

514
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: leave a social interaction and you realize that you've only

515
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: really talked about other people, it doesn't leave us feeling

516
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: particularly good. Maybe you would have enjoyed yourself more if

517
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: you talked about things that were more important to yourself

518
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: or more important to that other person. Discussing, you know,

519
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: whatever you did on the weekend, your thoughts on something

520
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: in the news, or some discussion that you've wanted to have,

521
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: you know, sharing your own emotions and feelings about something.

522
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: That's a pretty good quality conversation, right, It's something that

523
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: leaves us feeling really rejuvenated and really enlightened and really seen.

524
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: But when we talk about other people, you know, it

525
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: doesn't always leave us feeling that way. So if you're

526
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: someone who's realized that you spend a lot of time

527
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: thinking about other people, talking about other people, even gossiping,

528
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: be more mindful of the quality of your conversations. And

529
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: I think those five things really help us reframe our

530
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: relationship to gossip as a positive thing, as a negative thing.

531
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: Whatever it may be, and try and turn that dial

532
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: back towards a healthy relationship with it, and even a

533
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: healthier relationship with the people in our lives, when our conversations,

534
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: when our social interactions are not dominated by speaking about

535
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: other people. I think that's a really great place to

536
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: end it, on a positive note, on an enlightened note,

537
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: on a self improvement note. Thank you so much for

538
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: joining me in today's discussion, possibly one of my favorite topics.

539
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: I just had to do it after I was talking

540
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: about it with a friend the other day, and since

541
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: researching and having conversations with my friends, you know, like

542
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: I said, I've begun to notice how commonplace it is.

543
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: Like I said, I do think that the idea of

544
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: gossip is a lot more nuanced than we would initially think.

545
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: You know, who would have known that it had so

546
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: many social benefits and evolutionary upsides. But I also think

547
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: it's really important to consider all sides of a story,

548
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: not just the one that you've been told. You know,

549
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: we're on our way to becoming better people in our twenties,

550
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 1: and maybe this is something you want to address, or

551
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 1: you found yourself engaging in gossip more than your liking

552
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 1: So I really do truly hope that you've enjoyed this episode,

553
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: that you've learned something, that you begin to pay attention

554
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: to your conversations the way that I have. I think

555
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: it's so fascinating when we do the mental math about

556
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: how often we do talk about other people and whether

557
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: that's really crucial, whether that's really important, or whether it

558
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 1: could be avoided. So thank you again for following along,

559
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: for listening to all this kind of information that I've

560
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: probably dumped on you at this think it is so fascinating.

561
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: If you want to stay in contact, if you want

562
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: to stay in touch with the community, you want to

563
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: know more, you want to know when the episodes are

564
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: coming out, you want to, I don't know, send me

565
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: a really interesting article that you have found, or an

566
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: episode suggestion. Even Please feel free to follow me on

567
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: Instagram at that Psychology Podcast. It's where I share a

568
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: lot of what's coming next and where I take a

569
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 1: lot of your suggestions. So jump over there if you

570
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: feel called to do so. And if you did enjoy

571
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: this episode, please do feel free to leave a five

572
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening

573
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: right now. It really does help the show grow and

574
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: it really makes my day, So if you feel cool

575
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: to do that, please feel free and have an amazing

576
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 1: week wherever you are in the world. Thanks for joining

577
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: me today and we will be back next week with

578
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: another episode.