1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Body doings with Joseph's gotten more, How, what, when? Why? 2 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: Those questions are always asked when it comes to death investigation. 3 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: They always are, and I think that when we begin 4 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: to distill down the nature of death and what brought 5 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: an individual to let's say, their end, it's not necessarily 6 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: as simplistic as you might think that it is. Sometimes 7 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: it can be very complex. But the beauty of death 8 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: investigation is the individuals are no longer with us, and 9 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: as impatient as folks can be, sometimes we still are 10 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: afforded the ability in the medical legal community to take 11 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: our time and to really think about these sorts of things. 12 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: You know, when it comes down to cause and effect 13 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: and a word that many don't normally associate with death, 14 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: and that's mechanism. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is bodybacks. 15 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: I think, Dave, that when many people think of individuals 16 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: who had, say, for instance, participated in IVY heroin abuse, 17 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: and we give them a manner which surprisingly most of 18 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: the time is going to be ruled as an accidental death, 19 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: which for me has always been a bit lacking. I 20 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: think because you know, we've been taught for years and years, 21 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: little ones are always hot in school. You know drugs 22 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: are bad, just say no. Going back to Nancy Reagan, 23 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: people have been taught, they've been told. But yet a 24 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: drug o D is generally ruled as an accidental death. 25 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: But yet the individuals were actively participating in activity that 26 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: has a certain expected level of lethality. But the actual 27 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: cause of death might be heroin overdose. But what else 28 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: can you know kind of play into this. Well, here's 29 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: something that most people don't think about. The cause of 30 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: death is in fact heroin overdose, but the mechanism for 31 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: the death is actually cardio respiratory failure. And a lot 32 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: of that has to do with the fact that you know, 33 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: you know, with a drug o D like this, and 34 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: it's not just heroin, you can have it with, say, 35 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: for instance, coke, it leads to the lungs becoming very ademitous. 36 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: They can't process oxygen anymore. And so also there are 37 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: electrical problems with the heart and the functioning of the 38 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: heart receiving the little impulses from the brain that cause 39 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: our heart to beat in a normal rhythm. That's actually 40 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: the mechanism of death. But you know, it's one does 41 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: not happen without the other. So the individual would in 42 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: fact have to have injected themselves with heroin in order 43 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: to bring about this mechanism which ultimately leads to death. 44 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: You know one thing that bothers me. Well, there's plenty, 45 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: but one in particular. And I remember with the death 46 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: of Dana Plato of different strokes. She had gone on 47 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: the Howard Stern Show and got pretty bagged up there. 48 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: She'd had her battles with drugs overtime, mostly prescription drugs, 49 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 2: and she went back home to Arkansas or wherever she 50 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: was living in a motor home with her boyfriend, and 51 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: she overdosed on hydrocodone or something along those lines, and 52 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,119 Speaker 2: her death was ruled as a suicide because they said 53 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 2: she must have intended to kill herself by taking the pills, 54 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 2: because she took them regularly and knew how much it 55 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: would take to kill her. And I've always found that 56 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 2: an odd ruling, but it's a legal thing in the 57 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 2: state that she died, where when somebody dies of a 58 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 2: drug overdose, if they're a drug user, they just label 59 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 2: it that way. And I've oftentimes wondered about how somebody's 60 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 2: personal lifestyle comes into play when it comes into the 61 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 2: death rulings. I'm gonna put plural on that because cause 62 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 2: manner mechanism of death, you start looking at it like that, 63 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 2: and most of us don't. That changes everything because I 64 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 2: think she meant to kill herself that one in particular, 65 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: think she was trying to feel better. 66 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 3: You know, suicide is just I think it's bad. 67 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: And here's the other thing. She's not a pharmacologist, right, okay, 68 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: because if you're if you're trying to and you're trying 69 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: to tell her, you know that this level will take 70 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: you out. It's a I think maybe for her, it's 71 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: an unexpected outcome. 72 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: Remember I sing, if you smoke cigarettes, you're committing suicide. 73 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, some people have actually referred to that or any 74 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: any kind of activity that is detrimental to your health. 75 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: I've actually I've sat in a lecture one time, many times, 76 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: many years ago where a guy his whole the whole 77 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: theme of the lecture was passive suicide. And yeah, yeah, 78 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: I mean it's like, I don't eat anymore. My favorite, 79 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: the my favorite thing in the world. And I'll go 80 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: ahead and give them a shameless plug right here is 81 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: Popou's Chicken. I'm from New Orleans. I love Popeye's chicken. 82 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: They're not as good as my grannies, but I do 83 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: love their red beans and rice I make. I make 84 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: great red beans and rice. By the way, as well. 85 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: Used to love their dirty rice when they had it. 86 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: I could go on and on and on and sing 87 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: the praises of. 88 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 2: Need to get a salesperson on the phone with Popeyes 89 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 2: right now. 90 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, with Popey's love that chicken for Pope's. You know, 91 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,119 Speaker 1: you begin to think about that I should know better, 92 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: and particularly, you know, as many hearts as I've participated 93 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,799 Speaker 1: in the dissection of where I've seen you know, uh, 94 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: significant cornary occlusion as a result of you know, taking 95 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: taking these foods on. But yet it persists, right, you know, 96 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: the number one killer in America's heart disease. It has 97 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: been for a long time. I think that we don't 98 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: normally think about it. We don't normally think about it. 99 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: But yet there it is. You know, it's there. Listen. 100 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: Let me let me tell you something. And I think 101 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: I even showed you an image of this some time ago. Uh. 102 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: There's a classic image that I took at a death 103 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: scene one time of two fellows sitting in the front 104 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: seat of a vehicle and they had done time together 105 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: in the joint in Georgia. They'd been sellies together and 106 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: one got out and he promised. They were both addicted 107 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: to heroin when they arrived at at the lock up 108 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: at the state prison. And of course, as many people understand, 109 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: and you know, God bless families that have to endure addiction, 110 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, with their their loved ones. Heroin is not 111 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: something easy to kick. It's an absolute horror show. But 112 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: you know, you go into you go into lockdown, and dude, 113 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: you're going to kick it, you know, because most of 114 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: the time you're not going to have access to what 115 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: you had on the outside. But promise. And this always 116 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: kind of stuck in my brain as a death investigator 117 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: and as a human. One of the one guy told 118 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: his friend who was still incarcerated the day that you 119 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: get out, he was getting out like a month in advance, 120 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: the day that you get out. It's almost like that 121 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: scene of the Blues Brothers, you know, where Elwood picks 122 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: up Jake at the gate. He says, I'm going to 123 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: be out here. I'm going to be here in my car. 124 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to pick you up and brother me and 125 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: you were going to Atlanta and we are going to party. 126 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: Well they did. And let me tell you something that's 127 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: really going to shock, because it still shocks me even 128 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: when I see the image, and I show this image 129 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: every semester of my class. Both of these guys, I'll 130 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: never forget. I don't know if you did this with 131 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: your kids, but do you remember back years ago when 132 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: the gap would Fourth of July t shirts and they 133 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: would have an American flag or something patriotical on in 134 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: front of it, and it would say like fourth of 135 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: July nineteen ninety nine or something. Well, one of these 136 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 1: guys was wearing one of those shirts, and he was 137 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: seated in the front seat. And I'll never forget. It 138 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: was a jeep Cherokee. The driver was holding a syringe. 139 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: He's dead, now, Okay, keep in mind, I'm a death investigator. 140 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: Unlike you know what my wife first said one I 141 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: told her what I did for a living. I'd tell 142 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: her about some horrible crime or some horrible case, and 143 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: she'd say, did they die? And it's like, honey, I 144 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: worked for the medical examiner. They were dead. This guy 145 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: sitting there in death holding a syringe. Okay. The other 146 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: fellow is in the front passenger seat, Dave, he's not 147 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: holding the syringe. The syringe is still stuck into the 148 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: palmer aspect of his left forearm. And there was a 149 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: big bos cap in the center of the console on 150 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: the arm rest that had cotton stuff down in it, 151 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: and they had been cooking their heroin in there and 152 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: then drawing it up and injecting. You know, the thing 153 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: about it is is that these two fellows, of course, 154 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: their tolerance level because they had detoxed, had dropped so 155 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: low that they decided to hit one another up with 156 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: the same boluts of drugs and they actually died. I 157 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: can still tell you where it is. The building doesn't 158 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: exist anymore. They died in the back parking lot of 159 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: the GE headquarters building in north west Atlanta, and it 160 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: was hidden. It was one of those places that you 161 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: wouldn't see from the road. They'd gone back there specifically 162 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: to get high. And I thought about that, and it 163 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: was so powerful at that moment time when you begin 164 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: to think about the manner and the cause of death, 165 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: and then you know the mechanism relative to this, because 166 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: this is their deaths. And they were both purple cyanoutic, 167 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: which would give you an indication of the scene that 168 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: they were in respiratory distress. You look at that and 169 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 1: you think, just for that fleeting second, you know, they 170 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: had an opportunity to pull back, and all it took 171 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: was that simple injection and it it drove them to 172 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: death at that at that point in time. And I 173 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: think a lot of people get confused when we begin 174 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: to talk about we begin to talk about how does 175 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: how does actually the mechanism of death work? You know, 176 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: because it's really easy for us to kind of gloss 177 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: over and say, well, yeah, it's a heroin od and 178 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: you don't think you don't think about that very much. 179 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: And even even in a therapeutic environment like in a 180 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: hospital when somebody comes in and they have odd on heroin, 181 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: yes they are treating them for or heroin usage, but 182 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: they're actually trying to stem what's going on with the 183 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: mechanism to bring them back, you know, from the brink. 184 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: They're like, if you have some kind of respiratory failure 185 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: thing going on, well, that's going to be the mechanism 186 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: that leads to the death that was initiated, which is 187 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: going to be the causal factor with heroin. But they're 188 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 1: actually treating the mechanism. Isn't that kind of fascinating day? 189 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: Now, that's where narcan is used as a reversal agent. 190 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 2: I pe lute overdes on narcotics. 191 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: Correct, Yes, Yeah, it kind of mutes, it mutes the effect. 192 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of lives saved by it. Yeah, 193 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: there's been cops lives that have been saved, Yeah, by narcan. 194 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: There was one real recently. I actually saw it. I'd 195 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: Lord have mercy. It was terrible. This cop had been exposed. 196 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: It was a traffic stop and he hoped he couldn't 197 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: figure out what was wrong with the person who was driving. Yeah, 198 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: and opened up something and looked like makeup. He thought 199 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 2: he was going to find weed or dope, some type 200 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 2: of dope, and it was actually. 201 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 3: Fentanyl and he breathed it in. 202 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 2: He didn't start freaking out until after he knew he 203 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 2: wasn't feeling right, but on his way back to headquarters 204 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: it hit him and he had to They had to 205 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 2: come and save him on the side of the road. 206 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 2: Gave him a narc hand shot and h it was 207 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 2: more than one. 208 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was actually and you know, and that's happened 209 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: multiple times. But you know, when you think about that. Okay, 210 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: let's let's just think about that for a second. All right, 211 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: that that event Now, I'm not I'm not here to 212 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: conflate mechanism and manner. However, the mechanism, manner and calls 213 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: are all kind of intertwined together. Can we go back 214 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: to man or just for a second. 215 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 3: Actually, I was going to ask you to please do 216 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: it again. 217 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: Let me let me just let me just throw this 218 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: out to you, brother, okay, because it'll kind of make 219 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:54,959 Speaker 1: your head swim. 220 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 3: A little bit. 221 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: I've got another case that we'll talk about. That's fascinating too. 222 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: I think, hey, fine, very quickly. 223 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 3: Before we move too much for it. 224 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 225 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, you made a comment about the guys that got 226 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: out of prison and decided they were going to get 227 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 2: high because they were sullies and they were looking forward 228 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: to getting hurt. Right in my private life, one of 229 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: the things that I do is I work with alcoholics 230 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 2: and addicts in finding sobriety, and I will never forget 231 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: a call. Several years ago, a young man had come 232 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: through the program. It was a year in patient program, okay, 233 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: very intense and Bible based. Graduated the program and he 234 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: went home and his first month home he went back 235 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 2: to heroin. It's that tempting, and he died of an overdose. 236 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 2: And his father called wanting us to tell graduates if 237 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: you you know, if you're going to use, don't start 238 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: at the level you stopped, right, And I'm like, I 239 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 2: understand what you're saying. Yeah, but the reality is we're 240 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: not going to tell people how to use drugs to 241 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: stay alive. We're gonna tell him don't use drugs. That's 242 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 2: what they've spent a year learning. I know it's an addiction. 243 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: I know that it's a self afflicted addiction. You know 244 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: it's it's the person. And whenever we start talking about this, 245 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: my heart breaks for the families. My heart breaks for 246 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: the people that have to deal with the aftermath of 247 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 2: you spend all that time in a program and you 248 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: went out and you used, You spend all that time 249 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: in prison, and you planned on getting high and you died. 250 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 2: That's why I just wanted to just a little PSA. 251 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 2: Please have a heart for those who are addicted. It 252 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 2: is not a choice. Nobody grows up saying I want 253 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: to be a junkie. Nobody says I want to go 254 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 2: to jail. Nobody says I want to be homeless all 255 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: for the sake of drugs. If a mother's love, a 256 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: child's love for a parent, or you know, if that 257 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: could save anyone, there would be no junkies, there would. 258 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 3: Be no addicts. 259 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 260 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So that's why I'm glad you gave that example. 261 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 3: Joe. Think about it. 262 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 2: You're going to chaill self for your own behavior and 263 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: your game plan is let's get high. 264 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: It's absolutely insidious. So if you think about the police 265 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: officer that we had mentioned and this didn't happen to him, served, 266 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: But let's just say a similar set of circumstances going 267 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: back to Manor, and we know that the mechanism is 268 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: going to be a respiratory failure event coupled with cardio problems. 269 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: Let's just say for an instance, and I really want 270 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: not just you, Dave, but everyone out there to kind 271 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: of think about this. If you were the coroner, if 272 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: you were the medical examiner, how would you rule on 273 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: the case I'm about to tell you about where you 274 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: have a similar circumstance where the police have made a 275 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: stop along the roadway, okay, and they find somebody passed 276 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: out in a car, maybe they're not dead, and then 277 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: they begin trying to understand what's going on. They're searching 278 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: the vehicle and all of a sudden they open up 279 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: a package and a big puff of powder comes out. 280 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: They breathe that in Okay, there's nobody there with narcan, 281 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: and they die. The person in the car survives. Do 282 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: you charge that person with homicide? And that's you know, 283 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that kind of when you 284 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: begin to think about I say, do you well, will 285 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: the medical examiner, uh, you know, present this to the 286 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: DA in such a way that the DA begins to 287 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: understand the mechanism of this event coupled with the cause, 288 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: causal factors, and how are they going to rule it. 289 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: I encourage anybody that to check this guy out. He 290 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: helped me out. Dave. What uh? Where? Where? What's the 291 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: name of the town in Pennsylvania where they played the 292 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 1: Little League World Series? 293 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: Uh? 294 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 3: Williams, Pennsylvania. 295 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: Well, they play the the Little League World Series there. 296 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: It's famous. It has been famous for that for years 297 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: and years. And the corner they have elected corners in 298 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania and the corner up there became quite famous over 299 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: this one idea. And it's a way of looking at 300 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: death in the world through a particular lens. He started ruling. 301 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,479 Speaker 1: I did this. He started ruling every death that was 302 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: drug related that was like from elicted drugs. He ruled 303 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: every one of those deaths in his jurisdictions as homicides, 304 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,959 Speaker 1: every single one of them. And the impetus behind that, 305 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: from his perspective, was that these people that are addicted 306 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 1: to drugs, who are very vulnerable, were going to a 307 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: central location and receiving a deadly substance from an individual. 308 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: And whether or not the dealer pushed the plunger on them, 309 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: which is the way the attorney would look at that 310 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,719 Speaker 1: was irrelevant to him. He was going to rule, as 311 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: the medical legal authority that these were all homicides. Now, 312 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: I've talked to other corners around the country over the 313 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: years since I read that article so long ago, and 314 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: they don't necessarily agree with it. First off, I think 315 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 1: it's more of a practical thing they in their jurisdictions, 316 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: and I think this worked out with this gentleman as well. 317 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: The prosecution didn't have the They didn't have I don't 318 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: know if it's the intestinal fortitude or they didn't have 319 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: the foresight relative to this to enjoin with the coroner 320 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: and say, yeah, these are homicides because in the past, 321 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: you know, anytime that you have an ode, most of 322 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: the time the corner slash medical examiner forensic pathologist is 323 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: going to rule that as an accidental death. That's just 324 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: the way it works. 325 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: And so that makes sense, Joe, because how far do 326 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: you take that? I mean, do you take it to 327 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: the guy at the convenience store that sold a twelve 328 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: pack of beer to the alcoholic had got in the card, 329 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 2: drove down the road and crash into a tree. I mean, 330 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 2: you know, that's a slippery slope to go. Now. I 331 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: remember it was Williamsport, Pennsylvania. You are right, I remember that, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 332 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 2: And I remember it like it was yesterday because at 333 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 2: first my knee jerk goes wow, you go man. My 334 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 2: second was no way. But do you really get into 335 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 2: that nitty gritty as the medical legal death. I'm thinking manner, 336 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 2: you know, manner, cause mechanism, and how impactful that is 337 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 2: on the actual charging that takes place. Because now I'm 338 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: fact to I hate to keep doing this, but the 339 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 2: whole Karen Reid O'Keefe thing, they still don't have. They 340 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 2: don't have manner cause mechanism, right, they got one of 341 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 2: the three. 342 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: Well with mechanism, yeah, they actually do have cause of 343 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: death with that. And again going back to that with 344 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: and it's it's actually a great example, Daved. I'm glad 345 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: that you brought that up, because the mechanism with John 346 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: O'Keefe's death is not just it's it's not going to 347 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: just be simply blunt force trauma, but you have to 348 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: also think about the physiological response that the brain is having. 349 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: You recall from our previous episode where I was talking 350 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: about the fracture complexes that he had in his brain, Well, 351 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: that leads to a certain outcome where you will have 352 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: the brain responding to the point where the brain will 353 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: actually herniate and the brain is becoming very congested, and 354 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: it compromises the brain's ability to function appropriately and that 355 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: leads to death. That is that mechanism. Yeah, he sustained 356 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma, but there is an underlying mechanism that's 357 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: making that happen. But another thing about it is this 358 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: in cases where medical examiners and corners are having to 359 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 1: make a determination, particularly as it applies to the difference 360 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: and the link between mechanism and cause some things are 361 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: obvious and some just not quite as clear. Many years back, 362 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: Dave I, along with my colleagues, worked a case involving 363 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: a young man, and this young man was breaking into 364 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:44,719 Speaker 1: homes and either stealing from the homes, which is actually burglary, 365 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: or he was robbing the occupants of the home if 366 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: they were there. Okay, so you know, burglary, you break in, 367 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: you're not really having contact with people, you're stuff. You're 368 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: a thief, all right. Robbery is different, you know, with 369 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: robbery involves I think a lot of people kind of 370 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: missed the point with robbery. Robbery involves almost a threat 371 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: of violence. You know, when this happens, you either give 372 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: me what you have or else. Well that there's no 373 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: truer definition. In this case, this young man had broken 374 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: in to this elderly gentleman's house. And to go back, 375 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: this guy was a World War II veteran, he was widowed, 376 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: had lived in the same house since he got home 377 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: from World War Two, all right, and he had health problems. 378 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,479 Speaker 1: The young man came in through the rear door of 379 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: the home carrying an unloaded pump shotgun. The old man 380 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: met him in the kitchen and this young kid took 381 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: the shotgun and racked it in the old man's face. 382 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: The old man clutched his chest and died. That kid 383 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: was charged and tried for malice murder, and he was 384 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: sent to the penitentiary. Now you begin to think about 385 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,959 Speaker 1: that because most of the time, if a firearm is 386 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: involved and the case is ruled as a homicide, you're 387 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: going to begin to kind of contemplate, well, where are 388 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: the gunshot wounds? You know, because we're talking about the 389 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: cause of death in a case like that. If you're 390 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: thinking about somebody being shot with, let's you say, a buckshot, 391 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: the cause of death is going to be a gunshot wound. 392 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: And the mechanism is if they're shot in the chest, 393 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: their heart because of the traumat sustained and the lungs, 394 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: they're going to fail. And that's the mechanism. Relative to that, 395 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: he was never injured. The old man was never injured. 396 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: He went into a sistily, which means his heart stopped 397 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: beating because it was literally you know, I think a 398 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: lot of people would be inclined to say, well, he 399 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: was scared to death. This is one of those cases 400 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: where you can have someone that is subjected to this, 401 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: they're already in frail health. And that to me was 402 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 1: always kind of a touchstone case that I've used over 403 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: the years to teach people with, you know, because you know, 404 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: my students, particularly undergraduates, when they hear that story, they 405 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: see it as being implausible. But you know, Dave, death 406 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: comes in in all shapes and sizes, and you never 407 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: know how it's present, and then it's going to present 408 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: for you, And then how are you going to interpret 409 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: your findings? Not just what you find in the morgue, okay, 410 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: because many times the things are quite obvious. Sometimes they're not, 411 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: but many times they are quite obvious, but also the 412 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding the death, and that leads you down a 413 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: different road. Do you think weapon? Do you think gunshot? Woman? 414 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: In this case, we had weapon, no gunshot, woe, but 415 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: yet we have a dead body. Some people have actually 416 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: suggested that people that there needs to be a sixth 417 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: manner of death called incompatibility with life. I'll give you 418 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: an example. There was this guy a few years back 419 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: that everybody was, you know, weeping and gnashing of teeth 420 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: over that's this squirrel suit guy. You know, the guy 421 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: that puts on the squirrel suit and jumps off the mountain. 422 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: He's supposed to be the world champion, and he crashes 423 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 1: into a rock. I think it's like in the Alps 424 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: or some way. It doesn't matter. It's some huge mountain 425 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: with rocky outcroppings. Well, he's participating in an activity that 426 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: I don't know. Many people would say it's incompatible with life. Okay. 427 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: Now some people say, well, getting into an automobile is 428 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: kind of in No, no, no, no, no, that's not I'm 429 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: talking about gravity, dude. Okay, you knew the risk when 430 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: you engaged in this behavior. Is it's the same as suicide. 431 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, but that category. If you compare him 432 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: and what he did to Mamma that's on her way 433 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: to church and her you know, in her land yacht 434 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 1: and she can't seal the steering wheel and she gets 435 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: tea boned. That's an accidental death. So are those two 436 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: things the same? So there's a lot of people, in 437 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: particularly insurance companies, that would love for there to be 438 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: a sixth manner of death incompatibility with life. 439 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 3: For instance, I'll tell you that term. 440 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: And it's something that I have learned doing this with 441 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 2: you over the last couple of years. Is sometimes there 442 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 2: is evidence found at a scene, and even though you 443 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 2: don't have a body, you have enough evidence of blood 444 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: or other body issues that are incompatible with a person 445 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: continuing to live based on what you found right here 446 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 2: in the front seat of the car. I don't have 447 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 2: their body, but I got enough of their body to 448 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 2: know they're not alive. Working on a case like that 449 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 2: right now out of California. The woman's been missing a 450 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 2: couple of years, Heidi Plank, and Heidi Plank went missing, 451 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 2: and they saw her on a video screen at six 452 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 2: point thirty walking her dog. Thirty minutes later, her dog 453 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 2: is on the twenty eighth floor by himself, and she's gone. 454 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 3: Don't know where she went. 455 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 2: They found her vehicle, and they found other evidence inside 456 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 2: the apartment that the police said is incompatible with life, 457 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 2: but they didn't find her body. 458 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, And that part of incompatibility is not so 459 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: much an action as it is, say, like jumping off 460 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: the side of a mountain in a squirrel suit came. 461 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: I didn't think that I would wake up this morning 462 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: and actually say that phrase, But here we go. That's 463 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: that compared to incompatibility with life. If you have a case, 464 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: say for instance, involving what's referred to as exsanguination excanguinations 465 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: of famous or the ten dollars term for bleeding out okay, 466 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: where you have copious amounts of blood that's left behind, tissue, 467 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Then you look at that even 468 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: appsent the body, and you say, well, yeah, this is 469 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: incompatible with life. With her having survived, there's a high 470 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: probability she's deceased. And so you try to marry that 471 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: up with how the death is going to be classified. 472 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: You know, with miss PLAINK, there's no way I don't 473 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,479 Speaker 1: think that you could come up with an actual cause 474 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: of death. Let's say that you were going to try 475 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: to generate a death certificate for her in her absence, 476 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: in the absence of the mortal remains, the corpus DELECTI, 477 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: you're not going to have enough information because you don't 478 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: know where the trauma on her person was, you don't 479 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: know what generated the trauma, you don't know how the 480 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: trauma was generated itself. And so those are factors that 481 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: we would look at. And now if you could say 482 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: that a subject, not her, but just some other subject 483 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: had their throat cut okay, and you had a lot 484 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: of blood at the scene, there might be certain indications 485 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: you could tell, well, we've got an arterial spray pattern here, 486 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of blood. It's soaked all the 487 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: way through the carpet padding, not just carpet, and there's 488 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: a high probability she did not survive this. But even 489 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: without the body, you can't say that her throat was cut. 490 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: You just know that they lost a lot of blood. 491 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: So you look at that and you think, well, back 492 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: to this idea with Virginia Roberts. You know, so, what 493 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: are you saying. You've given us enough information at this 494 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: point in time to say that it's a suicide. But 495 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: if it's a suicide, what's the cause behind the suicide? 496 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: What is it that has presented to you scientifically that 497 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: would cause you to rule this as a suicide, But 498 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: yet you have yet to release release the actual cause 499 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: of death. My suspicion is, if you'd like to hear 500 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: it is they're trying to do. I think that they're 501 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: waiting on toxicology tell you the truth. That's my opinion. 502 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 2: And you know that a lot of journalists, Joe, a 503 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 2: lot of reporters say the wrong thing, and they're not 504 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 2: questioned on it because everybody you're dealing with is a reporter, journalist, 505 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 2: or a lawyer that now hosts a show that often 506 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 2: don't have the background that you you have. And when 507 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 2: if I were to off handedly say that Virginia Robert 508 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: S Guffrey died that her cause of death was suicide, 509 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 2: ninety percent of the people are not going to challenge that. 510 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 2: They're going to take that for what it is and 511 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: not even think, wait a minute, he's talking out of 512 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 2: his butt. He doesn't even know what he's talking about, 513 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: because that is not what caused her death. Her death 514 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 2: was not caused by a suicide, because suicide could be 515 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 2: shot in the head, hung myself, cut myself, any number 516 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 2: of things. 517 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: Well, you know, the problem with that is the level 518 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: these are very simple constructs, and it's the level of inexactitude. 519 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: And this is one of the things that troubles me 520 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: about that that's. 521 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 3: Got to drive you nuts when you're. 522 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: It really does, and listening, I'm not some kind of 523 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: ocd A or tentive kind of guy, you know, really, 524 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: I'm really not. But the inexactitude is the very slippery 525 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: slope we get a used in forensic practice. And I 526 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: think probably law enforcement would agree with this as well, 527 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: that side of the house of being sloppy, of being 528 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: inexact about what we're talking about. The lawyers make they 529 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: they feast off of that. But yet you flip that 530 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: around and you look at these inexactitudes and the problem 531 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: I think with her death in particular is that not 532 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: that other deaths are not important, but there's so much 533 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: of a swirl around this that you could be so 534 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: flippant that you don't delve a little bit deeper into 535 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: this and offer the public more data. Because how she died, 536 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: that is the cause of death, and how you classify 537 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: that death is so very important that we really can't. 538 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: You can't just leave that just kind of hanging in 539 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: the air. You have to be very very exact about this. 540 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 3: Because get that with her. But Joe, what about O'Keefe. 541 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 2: How do you move forward with a murder trial when 542 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 2: you don't have all of them? Again, I don't know 543 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: how what was his manner of death? It's undetermined, and 544 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 2: we move forward with a murder trial. I would think 545 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 2: you'd have to know that. 546 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: Well, yeah you would, But if you look at you know, 547 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: talking about cause. If you look at at John O'Keefe's death, 548 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: his specific cause of death is going to be massive 549 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: head trauma. And let me break this down to you. 550 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: This is actually kind of fascinating to me. I got 551 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: to see the the forensic pathologist. I got to see 552 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: her autopsy sketches from you know, we use an autopsy room, 553 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: we use anatomical sketches, and there's hundreds of these things, 554 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: these diagrams that we use, and there's actually a great 555 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: one that and they demonstrated this in court where you 556 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: take off this is an ar artists rendering. It's not 557 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,479 Speaker 1: his actual head, but you take off the skull cap 558 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: and you're looking down into the floor of the skull 559 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 1: and the brain is over to the side. There's another 560 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: drawing of the brain over here. And so when you're 561 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: looking down into the floor of his skull, that's what 562 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: we call the basel or area of the skull, or 563 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: like the basement. Okay, that's what it comes down to. Okay, 564 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: So when you're looking at the basement of John O'Keeffe's skull, 565 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist went into great detail of talking about 566 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: what we refer to as a fracture complex so when 567 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 1: you see John's John O'Keefe's fracture complex there too, and 568 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 1: they're distinctly different, but yet in their own right are lethal. 569 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: And let me break it down. When you see the 570 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: antier portion, there are fracture lines that are running all 571 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: over the place, okay, And it starts right above the 572 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: orbits of the eye. So one of the thinnest parts 573 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: of the brain are excuse me, one of the thinnest 574 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: parts of the skull are those little shelves that sit 575 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,879 Speaker 1: over your eye socket. As a matter of fact, they 576 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,919 Speaker 1: make up the roof of your eye sockets. And Dave, 577 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: I've actually been able to take a flashlight and have 578 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: a skull in my hand where the bottom point and 579 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: this is an actual skull where it's cut away, and 580 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: could take the flashlight and place it beneath the floor 581 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: of the skull. And that bone is so thin that 582 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: light illuminates up through it. You could light a room 583 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: with it as almost like a It'd be kind of muted, 584 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: but you could in a dark room you could actually see. 585 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: That's how thin it is. It's doctors like to describe 586 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 1: it as being eggshell like. Okay, So he's got this 587 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: complex of fractures, and there are these kind of curvel 588 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: linear patterns, and she's drawn this out. I'll never forget. 589 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: She's used a green ink, which I've never seen boy do, 590 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:56,879 Speaker 1: which I thought was kind of compelling because it's real 591 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: striking when they put it up on the elmo. You know, 592 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: the the almo is the projector that they use in 593 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 1: the courtroom where you place an item up there and 594 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: it projects it onto the wall. Of course, now they 595 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,959 Speaker 1: have an ELMO that's connected to the television screen in there, 596 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: so you've got that complex. He's got kind of what 597 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: sounds to me like this evulsion trauma to his right eye, 598 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: and to me, that speaks of point of impact. And 599 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: he's got bilateral raccoon eyes, which means he's got basel 600 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 1: or skull fractures. Anytime you see somebody with raccoon eyes, 601 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 1: either they've been struck in the head or they've had 602 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: no surgery, okay, like reconstructive no surgery. You'll get the 603 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: eyes swell up and you can actually see the edema. 604 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: I saw the image of him in the Morgan. I 605 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: think I saw one in the emergency room. And he's 606 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: got to see collar on and his eyes are very ademitous. 607 00:37:54,520 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: You know, they're swollen and blacken. Now those fractures patterns 608 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: in there. What that does is that literally opens up 609 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: the floor and you get seepage down behind the eyes. 610 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: The skull is closed. Okay, the brain has been traumatized 611 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: because whatever he was impacted by, whether it was her 612 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: car or slip and fall. The brain begins to swell 613 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 1: as a result of that subarachnoid and subdural trauma. And dude, unlike, 614 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: let's say you get hit in the arm with a 615 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 1: baseball with a hot shot, the base in the forearm. Okay, 616 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: now I know, because you're an old baseball guy. You 617 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: get hit with a hot shot, you drop up and 618 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: as mc granny would say, you draw a nod up 619 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 1: on you, and you do. You can actually feel it. 620 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: But guess what. The skin can expand those muscles as 621 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 1: are traumatized in there. They're filling up with blood. It's 622 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,839 Speaker 1: an engorgement and it expands out. Sooner or later it's 623 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: going to receive. Brain can't do that. Brain can't do 624 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: that because the skull is closed. So the brain begins 625 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: to expand instead inside of this hard shell, it's looking 626 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: for someplace to go. And it's beginning to get strangled. Okay, 627 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: and it actually herniates in a few places. Well, not 628 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: only does he have that complex, but you go to 629 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: the back of his head, Dave, there is a significant 630 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: laceration that's in what's referred to as the horizontal plane. 631 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: And so you think about the vertical plane, horizontal plane, 632 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: vertical plane. Top of the head to the soles of 633 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: the feet, that's vertical plane. You think about horizontal plane. 634 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: You're talking about from your left ear or your right ear, 635 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: or from your right shoulder to your left shoulder. That's horizontal. 636 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: So this thing is literally in the horizontal plane. And 637 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: underneath it there's that laceration where he's impacted the ground. 638 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: Guess what separate fracture complex at the base of the brain. Now, 639 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: now it's surrounding the brain stem. The brain is swelling 640 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,280 Speaker 1: because not only is the floor of the brain fractured, 641 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: now the brain has been traumatized to the brain is swelling. 642 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 1: It swelled. The brain swells, I think, unlike any other 643 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: organ the trauma response in the brain is amazing, and 644 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: it begins to swell. Well, okay, so I can say 645 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: to you definitively, I've really started chasing rabbits. I apologize, 646 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: but we can say that John O'Keefe's cause of death 647 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: is is blunt heead blunt force trauma, the head goes 648 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: without I don't think anybody would question that that's the 649 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,759 Speaker 1: cause of the factor here. Okay, but how are you 650 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: going to rule it? Well, you had mentioned, you made 651 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,839 Speaker 1: a great comment, and this is kind of the it's 652 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: the juxtaposition between the medical legal community and the proscatorial community. 653 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: They feel as though that with that simple cause of 654 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: death that they have, even though it has not been ruled, 655 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: it's been left ruled undetermined, they've got enough of circumstantial 656 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: evidence surrounding those events that night, they feel confident enough 657 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: that they can push through. But it's a powerful thing 658 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 1: when a forensic pathologist gets up on the stand and 659 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: they can't tell you what the actual manner of death is. 660 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: They can only state the cause. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 661 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: and this is bodybacks