1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,359 Speaker 1: Flashpoint is released weekly and brought to you absolutely free, 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: but for ad free listening, early access and exclusive bonuses. 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: Subscribe to tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot com or on 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 2: You're listening to Flashpoint, a production of tenderfoot TV and 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 2: association with iHeartMedia. The views and opinions expressed in this 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast. 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 2: This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 2: suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety four, two years before the Centennial Olympics, 11 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: John Britton, a physician who provided services for legal abortions, 12 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: and his bodyguard, were murdered by a man named Paul Hill. 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: That same year, Hill was interviewed from jail on camera, 14 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: an interview that Eric Rudolph saw. After seeing it, Rudolph wrote, quote, 15 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: Christianity had become a religion without testicles, and Paul Hill 16 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: seemed like a perfect anomaly, a genuine American hero in 17 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: an age of cowardice. I'd read about such people in 18 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: history books, but I didn't think they existed anymore. I 19 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: knew then that the era of hot air was over. 20 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: People were finally bridging the gap between their rhetoric and 21 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: their actions. I knew then it was time for me 22 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: to act as well, and that he did. The faulty 23 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: premise of the lone wolf is often invoked to describe 24 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: extremists like Paul Hill and Eric Rudolph, but Rudolph and 25 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: Hill both self identified as soldiers in the Army of God. 26 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: Militant Christian identity groups like the Army of God and 27 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: the Church of Israel are understood today to be tendrils 28 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: in a network, part of a thing we now call 29 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 1: leaderless resistance. This idea has been around for a while, 30 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,119 Speaker 1: but it first came to prominence for most Americans back 31 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: around nine to eleven under a different name, sleeper Cells. 32 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: Today they operate under names like the Proud Boys, the Oathkeepers, 33 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: the Three Percenters, even QAnon. There is no singular, unifying organization, 34 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: no individual leader, no headquarters, just an amorphous murmurration, a 35 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: spiraling tangle of battalions shitting everywhere, sometimes even blocking out 36 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: the sun. There is, however, a unifying ideology in ideology, 37 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 1: with a long list of common causes. In ideology that's 38 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: against a whole lot of things. It's against abortion. 39 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 3: The alleged planned parenthood shooter just shouted in a courtroom 40 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 3: that he killed three people out of Colorado Springs clinic 41 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: to quote protect the babies. Doctor George Tiller was shot 42 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 3: and killed, and his murder is sparking new fears for 43 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 3: the safety of other abortion providers. 44 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 4: The first explosion blew out windows at the North Atlanta 45 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 4: Family Planning Clinic. 46 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 5: Against gay rights, the beating of a gay college student 47 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 5: in Wyoming, Twenty one year old Matthew Shepherd remains in 48 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 5: critical condition after being left for dead in a field. 49 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 6: Colorado Springs, where overnight at least. 50 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 7: Five people were shot and killed at an LGBTQ nightclub. 51 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 8: It happened outside a lesbian club called The Other Side. 52 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: The first bomb injured five people. Against civil rights. 53 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 4: In the name of the greatest people that have ever 54 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 4: cad with her, I say segregation now, segregation to Mara 55 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 4: and segregation forever. 56 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: The deadly shooting inside at Charleston, South Carolina church is 57 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: being investigated as a hate crime. 58 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 9: Friends, the twenty one year old high school dropout was 59 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 9: a loner and unabashed racist with a deep hatred for 60 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 9: black people. 61 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 8: Carr in Charlottesville chaos in the streets. 62 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: The bar flowers into a crowd of people. Who's a 63 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: blood all of the ground, people screaming. 64 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 3: I have never seen such a horrific light you, racist 65 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 3: attack in my entire life. 66 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: But this particular ideological strain is all the more insidious 67 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: because it's cloaked in a robe of righteous religious conviction. 68 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 10: There are have now broken into the US capital, fucking 69 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 10: cub We love on the state of America to be reborn. 70 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 2: As the traders within our government. 71 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: We love you, only you, in course only mark Eric 72 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: Rudolph bombed the Olympics. Then he bombed an abortion clinic, 73 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: a gay bar, and another abortion clinic. Then when he 74 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: could sense that he was being hunted, he ran. But 75 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: he didn't do all this by himself. He was part 76 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: of something bigger. This escalation on the far right has 77 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: been happening for a long time. In these days it's 78 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: gained a very real foothold in the mainstream comporical cap 79 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: We have a right. 80 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 11: To the campo. 81 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: So how did this happen? Episode eight? The paradox. 82 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 8: It's always hard to know where to begin these stories. 83 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: That's Neil J. Young, historian and all author of We 84 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: Gather Together a book that debunks many common misconceptions about 85 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: the religious right in interfaith politics. 86 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 8: I think a lot of historians have pointed to the 87 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 8: late seventies and the sort of cultural backlash to the 88 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 8: things that had been happening in the decade, the legalization 89 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 8: of abortion in the early nineteen seventies from the previous decade, 90 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 8: allowing Bible reading and public prayer in public schools. I 91 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 8: think the nineteen sixty four election is an important moment 92 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 8: in which conservatives really begin to galvanize as a force 93 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 8: within the Republican Party. 94 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: The nineteen sixty four presidential election was a contest between 95 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: Democrat Lyndon B. Johnson in Republican Barry Goldwater. Back when 96 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: we started making this podcast, Barry Goldwater's presidential campaign seemed 97 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: like a reasonable point in history to start the story. 98 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,239 Speaker 12: And to all inline fellow Republicans, Zurosembel and Americans across 99 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 12: this great nation who do not care for our cause, 100 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 12: we don't expect to enter our ranks in any case, 101 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 12: I would remind you that extremism in the defense of 102 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 12: liberty is no vite. 103 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 13: And let me remind you also that moderation and the 104 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 13: pursuit of justice is no virtue. 105 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: It was two years before Rudolph was born, in an 106 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: indisputably turbulent moment in American culture, and I wanted to 107 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: understand what led up to this point. 108 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 8: It's an important moment because conservatives really coalesced around Verry Goldwater, 109 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 8: and even though he himself was not what we would 110 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 8: describe as a religious conservative or even a religious person, 111 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 8: particularly fundamentalist in the American South and the American West 112 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 8: saw him as their great hero. 113 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: It was a moment for the right that kicked off 114 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: a grassroots movement and hugely influenced the far right of 115 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: the moment, the alt right of the future, and eventually 116 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: even today's mainstream right as history remembers. Lyndon B. Johnson 117 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: won the election in a landslide. It looks like a 118 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: devastating loss for Barry Goldwater, who only won six states, 119 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: but looks can be deceiving. 120 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 8: And so when he lost, they didn't take it as 121 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 8: a permanent defeat, but rather as a moment to continue 122 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 8: organizing and building the networks that I think brought about 123 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 8: the conservative revolution that most of us see in the 124 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 8: nineteen eighty election of Ronald Reagan. 125 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 12: And I'm asking you as I ask all Americans, and 126 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 12: together we'll make America great again. 127 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 9: Thank you very much. 128 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 6: There's no unique or simple narrative about America right. 129 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,479 Speaker 1: Matthew D. Taylor is the senior scholar at the Institute 130 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies and the author of 131 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: the violent Take It by Force. The Christian movement that 132 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: is threatening our democracy. 133 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 6: These are ongoing battles and ongoing debates. What we see 134 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 6: in the late nineteen seventies is a very concerted effort 135 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 6: to form a coalition of evangelical and fundamentalist Christians. 136 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: Fundamentalist Christians are absolutists like Dan Gamon who insist on 137 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: a strictly literal interpretation of the Bible. 138 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 6: It was still positive identity for many American Christians. But 139 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 6: this coalition of evangelicals and fundamentalists and then they start 140 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 6: looping in conservative Catholics and Latter day Saints ideas. We're 141 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 6: all fighting against the same things. We all are trying 142 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 6: to arrest this progress, these shifts that are going on 143 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 6: in our culture. We all feel threatened by these things. 144 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 6: Let's band together. 145 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: Then came nineteen seventy three, Roe v. Wade ruled that 146 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: the decision whether to continue or into pregnancy belongs to 147 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: the individual, not the government. At the time, evangelical Christians 148 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: were largely not opposed to that decision. They were instead 149 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: focus on other issues. But that would change. 150 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 14: Turns out, the catalyst for evangelical political activism in the 151 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 14: nineteen seventies was a court decision, but it wasn't Roe v. 152 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: Wade Randall Balmer is a prominent historian on this topic. 153 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: He's the author of dozens of books, including Evangelicalism in America. 154 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 14: It was a court decision that was handed down on 155 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 14: June thirtieth, nineteen seventy one, in a case called Green vy. Connolly, 156 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 14: and the issue presented before the court is whether or 157 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 14: not racially segregated educational institutions known as segregation academies, should 158 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 14: be allowed tax exempt status. And the court ruled decisively 159 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 14: on June thirtieth, nineteen seventy one, that any or organization 160 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 14: that engaged in racial segregation or racial discrimination was not, 161 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 14: by definition a charitable institution and therefore had no claims 162 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 14: on tax exempt status. And as the Internal Revenue Service 163 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 14: began enforcing that ruling over the course of the nineteen seventies, 164 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 14: that got to the attention of Bob Jones University, which 165 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 14: of course was founded back in nineteen twenty seven explicitly 166 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 14: to be a racially segregated institution, as well as people 167 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 14: like Jerry Folwell, who had his own segregation academy in Lynchburg, Virginia, 168 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 14: which he began in nineteen sixty seven. 169 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: This segregation academy would lead to today's Liberty University, which 170 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: has a one point six billion dollar endowment. 171 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 14: So a defense of racial segregation was the actual catalyst 172 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 14: for the emergence of the religious right in the nineteen seventies. 173 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 14: The big question is how it was that a movement 174 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 14: that emerged in defense of racial segregation transformed itself into 175 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 14: a movement that was opposed to abortion. The key figure 176 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 14: here is a conservative strategist named Paul Weyrick. And I 177 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 14: actually met and had a conversation with Paul Weyrick in 178 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 14: November of nineteen ninety at a conference, a small closed 179 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 14: door gathering, where he made the emphatic point that the 180 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 14: religious right did not organize in opposition to abortion. And 181 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 14: I pulled him aside after he made that statement, and 182 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 14: I said, I want to make sure I hurried you 183 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 14: correctly on this, and he said absolutely. He said, I'd 184 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 14: been trying since the Goldwater campaign to get these people, 185 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 14: meaning evangelicals, involved in politics. He said, I tried everything. 186 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 14: I tried the abortion issue. I tried the women's rights issue. 187 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 14: I tried the school prayer issue. I tried the pornography issue. 188 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 14: Nothing got their attention until the Internal Revenue Service started 189 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 14: coming after these segregation academies in the nineteen seventies. And 190 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 14: so then I pushed a little further on this, how 191 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 14: did abortion become part of the conversation? And according to Wirek, 192 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 14: there was a conference call among these leaders of this 193 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 14: nascent movement, the religious right, and these various pastors, together 194 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 14: with WIREX, said you know, we have the makings here 195 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 14: of a larger political movement. What other issues can we 196 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 14: talk about? And according to Wirek, there were several suggestions, 197 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 14: and finding the voice on the end of one of 198 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 14: the lines said how about abortion. I think Wyreck's great brilliance, 199 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 14: and he was a brilliant political activist, was to recognize 200 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 14: that even though he had mobilized these evangelical leaders in 201 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 14: defense of racial segregation at their institutions, Wyreck still realized 202 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 14: he needed an issue other than a defense of segregation 203 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 14: in order to mobilize grassroots evangelical voters. 204 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: That conference call between Wyrek and the various leaders and 205 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: pastors was the birth of the moral majority, a movement 206 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: from the Christian right to galvanize everyday evangelical voters by 207 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: using moral issues functioning on an emotional level to motivate 208 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: action at the polls. You can make the argument that 209 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: this was the beginning of the culture wars on a 210 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: mass scale. 211 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 6: It's a very famous scene. Just a couple months before 212 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 6: the nineteen eighty election. In that summer, there was a 213 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 6: gathering in Texas is called the National Affairs Briefing, and 214 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 6: it's all these kind of Christian evangelical leaders gathered in 215 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 6: Texas and they invite the presidential candidates to come, and 216 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 6: Ronald Reagan agrees to come. Ronald Reagan who gets picked 217 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 6: up at the airport by a Baptist preacher named James Robison. 218 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 6: And as they're driving to this convention, James Robinson says 219 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 6: to Reagan, you know, if you really want to get 220 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 6: this crowd on your side, here's the thing to say. 221 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 6: Tell them. I know you can't endorse me because they're 222 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 6: all leaders of nonprofits. Right, I know you can't endorse me, 223 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 6: but I endorse you. And this becomes the line that 224 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 6: Ronald Reagan delivers in this speech at the National Affairs Briefing, 225 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 6: and it becomes this iconic moment of this congealing of 226 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 6: the religious right around Reagan. And I mean, the great 227 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 6: irony is that Jimmy Carter was a very good evangelical, 228 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 6: He was a very good Baptist. He was steeped in 229 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 6: this stuff. And Reagan is this divorced, mainline Protestant actor, right, 230 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 6: who in any ways is the antithesis of the values 231 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 6: or the ideals that these Christian nationalist evangelicals of the 232 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 6: late nineteen seventies. But he fits the bill in terms 233 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 6: of his agenda and his willingness to work with them. 234 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 6: And so what they're doing in this rise of the 235 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 6: moral majority, the rise of the religious right, the Christian Coalition, 236 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 6: is they are trying to channel the energy and demographic 237 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 6: power of American Christianity into political causes. There really is 238 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 6: this sense of we can just get the Christians all voting, 239 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 6: we can change this country. 240 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: As Neil Young aptly observes, this began to take root 241 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: fundamentally changing the way evangelicals understood their role in American politics. 242 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 8: One of the really fascinating things that I've watched over 243 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 8: the last couple of election cycles is to see prominent 244 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 8: evangelical figures who have argued that one of the things 245 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 8: Christians will have to account for when they stand before 246 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 8: the judgment, throne of God, and the afterlife is how 247 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 8: they voted in an American election. Now, that is an 248 00:16:54,440 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 8: amazing historical and theological development. Politics was dirty, it was secular, 249 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 8: it was worldly, and so yes, you know, you should 250 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 8: be a voter, you should be up on the issues 251 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 8: and cast your vote. But to be caught up in politics, 252 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 8: to be devoted to it, to make too much of it, 253 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 8: was to too much engage in secular or worldly pursuits. 254 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: Historian Randall Ballmer also takes a note of this change. 255 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 14: I think what happens after the Reagan era is that 256 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 14: number one, the religious right becomes even more effective tactically 257 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 14: in trying to advance its agenda. I mean to all 258 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 14: the wrong ends in my judgment, but nonetheless very effective 259 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 14: talk in terms of war and consistently use military metaphors 260 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 14: to talk about what is going on, and that sort 261 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 14: of rhetoric is picked up by leaders of the religious right. 262 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 14: Let's remember, these folks had huge, huge media empires who 263 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 14: are out broadcasting their message quite literally to the masses. 264 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 14: And as this militant rhetoric starts to take hold, people 265 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 14: begin to believe that they're in some sort of apocalyptic 266 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 14: struggle against the forces of evil. The other thing, they're 267 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 14: very good at them. Speaking of the leaders of the 268 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 14: religious right, they're very, very fluent in the language of victimization. 269 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 14: We are the victims here. And I believe, by the way, 270 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 14: that one of the reasons that the anti abortion movement 271 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 14: is so successful among evangelicals is that they identify with 272 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 14: the victimhood or the victimization of the fetus. I remember 273 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 14: very clearly, on the eve of the Iowa precinct caucuses 274 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 14: in nineteen eighty eight, I was in Iowa talking to 275 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 14: these religious right activists and the woman her name was 276 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 14: Maxine Sealman. She was head of the Iowa chapter of 277 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 14: Concerned Women for America. Maxine looked at me and pointed 278 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 14: her finger and said, let's remember, the most dangerous place 279 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 14: to be these days is inside a mother's womb. And 280 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 14: I think there's a sense in which evangelical has identified 281 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 14: with the sort of helplessness of the fetus. There was 282 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 14: some sort of visceral connection that I think helped to 283 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 14: fuel the passion that they brought to the anti motion movement, 284 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 14: and that they subsequently transferred to other social issues, the 285 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 14: anti gay movement and so forth, and now the anti 286 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 14: trans movement. The rhetoric of victimization I think is very 287 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 14: very powerful, and the leaders of the movement used it 288 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 14: quite successfully to mobilize these evangelical activists. 289 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: In this rhetoric, this mindset was also very much in 290 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: sync with the militant organizing that was taking place further 291 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: time to the right. 292 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 15: When I think about the organizing of modern far right extremism, 293 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 15: I look to the nineteen seventies. 294 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: Nicole Himmer is an associate professor of history at Vanderbilt University, 295 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: where she specializes in the history of conservative media in 296 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: the US in the role of right wing media in 297 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 1: American electoral politics. 298 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 15: So you start to see in the nineteen seventies that 299 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 15: there is this energy around anti government, anti Semitic, anti 300 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 15: black organizing that will then lead in the nineteen eighties 301 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 15: to an organization known as the Order, and then There's 302 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 15: another phase that emerges in the nineteen nineties. The first 303 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 15: of these is the siege on Ruby Ridge. 304 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 8: In Maples, Idaho. 305 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 13: Federal marshals are surrounding a cabin where a fugitive white 306 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 13: supremacist named Randy Weaver is hold up with his family. 307 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 15: Federal marshals stand off against white identitarians who are out 308 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 15: in this cabin in the middle of the woods, living 309 00:20:58,760 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 15: off of the grid. 310 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 12: Most of us don't pay taxes, most of us don't 311 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 12: have jobs. 312 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 7: We live off the land. 313 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: We don't need the system. 314 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 7: We can live without it. 315 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 15: And the wife is killed and the son is killed, 316 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 15: and there is this sense that they are martyrs for 317 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 15: the cause of the far right and the militia movement. 318 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 16: They consider it a threat when anyone lives outside the norm. 319 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: And I think the systems. 320 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 16: Got to where it serves the power of structure instead 321 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 16: of the people. 322 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 15: Just a year later, in Waco, Texas, there is another 323 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 15: federal siege, this time on a religious compound. 324 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 9: The fierce gun battle has led to a standoff between 325 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 9: law officers and occult members of a religious compound outside 326 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 9: of Waco. This evening, the cult is something called the 327 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 9: Branch Davidians. 328 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: They're an offshoot of the. 329 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 15: This compound, led by David Koresh, was a religious sect 330 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 15: that had gathered more than one hundred people who were 331 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 15: shockingly well armed and who were sort of holed up 332 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 15: in this compound. There were allegations of child abuse, but 333 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,719 Speaker 15: what the federal government was really paying attention was this 334 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 15: armstock piling. And the federal government forces a confrontation in Waco, 335 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 15: and it ultimately leads not only to a lengthy siege, 336 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 15: but the death of nearly one hundred people, most of 337 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 15: whom were children. 338 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 3: The cult compound there about one hour ago went up 339 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 3: in flames and burned to the ground, one hundred twelve 340 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 3: people inside. 341 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: Remember when Eric Rudolph sent letters to various media outlets 342 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: following the bombing at the Other Side Lounge, he signed 343 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 1: it off with four nineteen ninety three, the final day 344 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: of the siege at Waco. Two years later, four nineteen 345 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: was also the date that Timothy McVeigh would bomb a 346 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: federal government building in Oklahoma City, killing one hundred and 347 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: sixty eight people and injuring six hundred eighty. 348 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 15: And So Ruby Ridge and Waco are core parts of 349 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 15: Patriot lore that develop in nineteen ninety two, in nineteen 350 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 15: eighty three. They would remain touchstones for all of these 351 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 15: movements through today. And all of this came together to 352 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 15: help fuel a movement that was based around guns and 353 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 15: anti government violence. It stood for, the government is coming 354 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 15: to where you are, and it has the power to 355 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 15: take you out. They're going to come for you. They're 356 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 15: going to kill you on any possible pretense. 357 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: Eric Rudolph even wrote about some of this from prison. 358 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: Here's an excerpt. The mainstream media tried to bury the story, 359 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: but words spread in spite of the blackout on shortwave radio, 360 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: in small newsletters, in sermons at church, people learned of 361 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: the Ruby Ridge massacre. Like the Weavers, my family had 362 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: left the big city to live in the mountains. For 363 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 1: those of us who had grown up in that lifestyle, 364 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 1: the Ruby Ridge massacre came as a clarion call. 365 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 8: Even someone like Barry Goldwater, you know, this staunch conservative, 366 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 8: he could see where all of that was headed. In 367 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 8: nineteen ninety four, he said, and I'm quoting here, mark 368 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 8: my word. If and when these preachers get control of 369 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 8: the Republican Party, and they're sure trying to do so, 370 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 8: it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these 371 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 8: people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise, but these 372 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 8: Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, 373 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 8: so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried 374 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 8: to deal with them. 375 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: If you're not for us, you're against us is a 376 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: crafty rhetorical device. If you're an anti communist, then anyone 377 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: who disagrees with you or does something you don't approve 378 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: of is a communist. And if Satan is your enemy, 379 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: then anyone who disagrees with you is therefore satanic. This 380 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: logic allows any evangelical Christian to say that anything non 381 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: Christian is satanic or of the devil. 382 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 8: Another thing that Goldwater said this was back in nineteen 383 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 8: eighty one, was, and I'm quoting again, there is no 384 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 8: position on which people are so immovable as the religious beliefs. 385 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 8: There is no more powerful ally one can claim in 386 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 8: a debate than Jesus Christ, or God or Allah or 387 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 8: whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, 388 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 8: the use of God's name on one's behalf should be 389 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 8: used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our 390 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 8: land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They 391 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 8: are trying to force government leaders into following their position 392 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 8: one hundred percent. If you disagree with these religious groups 393 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 8: on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you 394 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 8: with a loss of money or votes or both. 395 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: This makes the world a very black and white place. 396 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: It's this world versus the spiritual world. It's this life 397 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: versus the afterlife. It's a zero of some game. If 398 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: you're not for us, you're against us. Every conflict becomes 399 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: an existential threat that to some justifies a violent end. 400 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 17: No one, whether they're a terrorist or you know, a preacher, 401 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 17: both wakes up and says like I'm a bad person 402 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 17: and I want to make the world worse. 403 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: Talia Levin is a journalist and, in the wake of Charlottesville, 404 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: the author of Culture Warlords, My Journey into the Dark 405 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: Web of White Supremacy. 406 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 17: Most people believe that they're essentially good, and most people, 407 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 17: especially in the grips of fervent ideology, believes that they're 408 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 17: making the world a better place. And someone like Eric 409 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 17: Rudel very much believed he was making the world a 410 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 17: better place. Well, if it stops baby killing, that makes 411 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 17: the world a better place, good things for God. And 412 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 17: I really think when you look at these thousands of sermons, 413 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 17: you have the same This is murder, murder and a mascow. 414 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 17: It's a holocaust that the liberals love because they love 415 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 17: killing babies. Some people draw that logic to its conclusion, 416 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 17: how do we react to people who kill children? 417 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 13: You know? 418 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 17: How should we react to child murderers? Some people are 419 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 17: content with the picket, other people go get the tntape. 420 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 17: You know, the rhetoric is the same. 421 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 7: As anti abortion becomes an animating principle on the right. 422 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 7: What happens is it becomes further and further politicized. 423 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: Kevin Cruz is a professor of history at Princeton University 424 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: and the author of One Nation Under God. He was 425 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: also known as the Twitter Historian until leaving the platform 426 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three. 427 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 7: One the New Right techniques of kind of mobilizing voters 428 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 7: in the seventies and eighties direct mail campaigns and which 429 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 7: you can only get money out of them if. 430 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: You scare them to death. 431 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 7: Right, So the language becomes much much more apocalyptic. If 432 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 7: we don't get your donation, your help, this is going 433 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 7: to happen. 434 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 1: Language like abortion is murder, abortion is killing. 435 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 7: Stop the slaughter, and literally millions of babies are going 436 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 7: to die is the result they're talked about. So it's 437 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 7: framed increasingly as as a holocaust. It's framed as a 438 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 7: fight not just for the soul of the nation, but 439 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 7: for millions of souls of the unborn. And if that's 440 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 7: something that your faith teaches you to take seriously, that 441 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 7: becomes a real rallying cry to go kind of old 442 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 7: Testament on this and seek an eye for an eye. 443 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: And there are groups like the Army of God. 444 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 7: Which, as the name implies, saw itself as a kind 445 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 7: of paramilitary force doing God's will, and that involved blowing 446 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 7: up clinics. There were the assassinations of doctors who provided 447 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 7: abortion services, most famously George Tiller. And again it's no 448 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 7: accident that Tiller had been repeatedly singled out, I believe, 449 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 7: on radio shows by people like Bill O'Reilly who called 450 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 7: him Tiller the Killer, and then he was assassinated. So 451 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 7: as these individuals are put in the literal crosshairs of 452 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 7: national media campaigns, of political operatives fundraising, it heightens the stakes. 453 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 7: It makes this literally a life and death situation. In 454 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 7: which some people are more than willing to meet with 455 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 7: they see as a deadly movement with deadly force, and 456 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 7: that's what takes us up to people like Rudolph. 457 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 17: And so many had Dan Gayman as a spiritual mentor 458 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 17: very much can bring himself to a place where he's 459 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 17: burying shrapnel in a bomb that's going to mutilate a nurse. Well, 460 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 17: if it stops baby killing, that makes the world a 461 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 17: better place. The rhetoric is the same, and so I 462 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 17: don't necessarily view that is benign in any sense. I 463 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 17: think that for going on fifty years, the Christian right 464 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 17: has preached that women exercising autonomy over their own bodies 465 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 17: and their reproductive choices is equivalent to mass murder and 466 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 17: should be punished as such. And so having the Eric 467 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 17: Rudolph figures the arsonists to sort of demonize that's a 468 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 17: useful rhetorical jiu jitsu move I mean, of course, it's 469 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 17: useful to have someone to say, well, they're the crazy one. 470 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 17: I'm the sane and normal one. What I'm saying is that, 471 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 17: as always in a movement, you have a radical fringe 472 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 17: in a successful movement, and the anti abortion movement in 473 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 17: the US is a successful political movement, absolutely successful. You 474 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 17: have a radical fringe, you have the Eric Rudolph's of 475 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 17: the world, and then you have you know, the Mike 476 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 17: Johnson's of the world. You know, the Mike Pences, right, 477 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 17: and they have the same goal and much of their 478 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 17: rhetoric overlaps. But to my mind, and this is why 479 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 17: I talk about the arsonists and the legislators being not 480 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 17: that different and having the same goals, just going about 481 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 17: them in different ways. You know, Ask the seventeen year 482 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 17: old bleeding to death because she couldn't, you know, get 483 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,719 Speaker 17: a still berth out of her body and it has sepsis. 484 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 17: Ask the eleven year old forced to give birth to 485 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 17: a rapist child. Ask them whether there's a difference. I 486 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 17: don't think there's a difference. 487 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: Lately, it seems as though we're becoming more and more polarized. 488 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: Feels like we're living through a new historical event every week. 489 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: Certain human rights that I took for granted as a 490 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: kid are at risk now. Technically, a flashpoint refers to 491 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: the temperature at which a chemical reaction triggers ignition, but 492 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: in human terms, it means the point of no return. 493 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: It's when shit officially goes sideways, spinning out of control. 494 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: Over the last half century, we've seem domestic terrorists like 495 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: Eric Rudolf planning a series of detonations of flashpoints, slowly 496 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: ramping up each explosion, coming faster and faster, until finally 497 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: reaching today's breakneck pace. But do these terrorists ever feel remorse? 498 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: Does time or the reality of being caught ever make 499 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: them question their actions or their beliefs. For the longest time, 500 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: I've wondered this about Eric Rudolf. It's why I wrote 501 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: to him to see what he thought of my story 502 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: in What's Become of the World Today? And Eric Rudolf 503 00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: wrote back. 504 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 9: On he doesn't. 505 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: After receiving the letter, I reconnected with Rudolph's sister in law, 506 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: Deborah to share his unsettling words with her, And. 507 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 11: Then I'll read you what he said too. Oh my god, 508 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 11: he said, dear call, thank you for the kind letter. 509 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 11: I'm glad to hear that you are alive and that 510 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 11: my actions at Sandy Springs played some role in your 511 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 11: mother's decision not to kill you. And I cannot say 512 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 11: that I regret my actions. Your story only reinforces that conviction. 513 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 11: If you're curious about my case, go to the Army 514 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 11: off Good dot com and read my memoir between the 515 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 11: lines of Drift. Feel free to download the memoir or 516 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 11: any of my writings. I await your response, Sincerely, Eric Rudolf. 517 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 17: Do you want to know what I think of that? 518 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 11: Please? 519 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 18: I think it's very narcissistic. But he wrote because he 520 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 18: makes it again about him. Please read my You know 521 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 18: he's never far away from his original role. That's scary. Yeah, 522 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 18: he's a psychopath, no doubt. If he had not gotten caught, 523 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 18: I think he would have continued. 524 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 1: I wrote him back four times, each letter a bit 525 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: more direct, but he never responded again. I'm not sure why. 526 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: I have my theories, but I just don't know. He 527 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: seemed willing to talk at first, but then crickets. I 528 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: may never figure out that part of the story. But 529 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: I've always known about my birth story, well most of it. 530 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: I knew about my mom's relationship with BeO, how Bou 531 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: was never part of our lives, and how my dad 532 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: officially adopted me when I was six. But the Eric 533 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: Rudolph part of it, I didn't know about that until 534 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: I was in high school. I think my mom just 535 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,439 Speaker 1: put it away. It wasn't that significant to her once 536 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: she had me, because life just kept happening. She had 537 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: a kid to take care of, a family to mother. 538 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: It just wasn't something she had space for anymore. 539 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 9: I remember driving in the car one time with my 540 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 9: mom and she and my stepdad used to go to 541 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 9: this liquor store named Jack's in Sandy Springs and it's 542 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 9: right next to the street that goes up the hill 543 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 9: to the abortion clinic. And I remember making a comment 544 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,240 Speaker 9: one time to my mom and saying, Cole probably wouldn't 545 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 9: be here had that place not been bombed. 546 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 11: What would you say Eric's mom if she were sitting here. 547 00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 9: I mean, I feel nothing but empathy for her. 548 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 1: As mothers, we love our. 549 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 9: Kids no matter what, and I think doesn't mean you 550 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 9: love everything they do or have done. But it would 551 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 9: be very difficult to have your child hurt somebody or 552 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 9: kill somebody or do things like that, and to know 553 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 9: that your child's going to spend the rest of their 554 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 9: life behind bars. And I feel like she's probably been 555 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 9: blamed a lot for his actions. I would assume in 556 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 9: how usually it's the mother that is blamed. I mean, 557 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 9: I think that that's just pain that I can't imagine 558 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 9: that as a mother. I mean, I have compassion for her. 559 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: There's so many paradoxes in play with the story, and 560 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: I've been living with them, trying to make sense of 561 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: it all. Sometimes people think I must be anti abortion, 562 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,919 Speaker 1: They think my mom must be anti abortion. How could 563 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: we support something that nearly snuffed out my existence. 564 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 9: You know, hearing the story, I think sometimes can come 565 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 9: across like I am purely pro life now just because 566 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 9: of my situation and how things turned out. But that 567 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 9: does not for a second mean that that's where I stand. 568 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,839 Speaker 9: I mean, I am totally in completely pro choice. The 569 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,840 Speaker 9: parallel of Eric Rudolph being a man trying to impact 570 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 9: and affect women's lives is the parallel to what's happening 571 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 9: with things now. And yes, I chose to have you 572 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 9: as a teenager, but it's never just as easy as 573 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 9: just having a baby. I had a lot of help, 574 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,320 Speaker 9: a lot of support, whether it's physical help, financial help, whatever, 575 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 9: And I would say we were the exception, not the rule. 576 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, the world my mom 577 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: grew up in afforded her a choice, and having that choice, 578 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: being able to hold the two conflicting options made it 579 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: possible for her to get her arms around her situation 580 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,839 Speaker 1: and know what she needed, what mattered to her. And 581 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: for me, the thing I've been reminded of sifting through 582 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: the wreckage and talking with all these people who I 583 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: never knew before this podcast is just how valuable it 584 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: is to find connection, to realize you care what someone 585 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: else thinks. It's simple, but it's powerful. Human connection makes 586 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: us feel stuff, makes us feel stuff more than anything 587 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: else does, good and bad and everything in between. What 588 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: matters most is finding a way to have real conversations 589 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: about the hard stuff, the difficult things, the contradictory truths. 590 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: I know that seems im possible right now, but if 591 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: we don't, this is just going to keep happening and 592 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: happening and happening. Here's Frederick Clarkson, author of Eternal Hostility, 593 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: the struggle between theocracy and democracy. 594 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 16: The dilemma is that if you really believe that everybody 595 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 16: has a right to their ideas and to express them 596 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 16: in a democratic society, you have to accept and respect 597 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 16: the people who are opposed at the same time. And 598 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,800 Speaker 16: so how do you do that? How do you deal 599 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 16: with your formidable political opponents who are opposed to your 600 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 16: very ideas, and there's never totally good answers to that. 601 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 16: We need to understand that every single day we're living 602 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 16: the paradox, and if we don't get that, we're putting 603 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 16: everything that we hold dear at risk. So the odd 604 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 16: thing for us to embrace the delpe embrace the paradox. 605 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 16: We have to decide that that's a good day. 606 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: How do you feel about him today? 607 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 19: Sometimes there's some revenge in there. Some days I really 608 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,320 Speaker 19: don't think about him. 609 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: What Emily Lyons survived at that clinic in Birmingham, it 610 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: would destroy most people. She's one of the strongest souls 611 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: I've ever met. 612 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 19: Some weeks are probably a little bit more anger. This 613 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,240 Speaker 19: is one of those weeks. There's another surgery in my future, 614 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 19: and that's only because of him. Very few things surgery 615 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 19: was that I've had done was for my own fault. 616 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 19: He has caused forty nine of my fifty surgeries. I 617 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,279 Speaker 19: don't think there's really anything I'm polite I could say. 618 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 19: I get up in the morning. As soon as I 619 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 19: put my legs down, it's like, oh everything hurts, thank 620 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 19: you Rudolf, And I get up and look in the 621 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 19: mirror and see my face. It's my Rudolph face. It's 622 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 19: my Rudolph problem, my knees Rudolph. This week, it's my face. 623 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 19: There's another surgery in my future. I lost my independence, 624 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 19: I lost my career, I lost my friends. To me, 625 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 19: it's a matter of control over women. It's not their 626 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 19: duty to patrol the bedroom. How does that leave a 627 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 19: lot of women with nothing, no support, no loss to 628 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 19: protect them. In the talks I would give, would talk 629 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,399 Speaker 19: about frog is overturned than what Sandy and I went 630 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 19: through has been for nothing, And I still think that 631 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 19: it's been for nothing. The rights have been taken away 632 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 19: in most places. There are still some left in the country, 633 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 19: but they're working to get rid of that too. 634 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,720 Speaker 1: Flashpoint is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with iHeartMedia. 635 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,919 Speaker 1: I'm Your Host. Cole La Cassio, Donald Albright and Payne 636 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: Lindsay are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV. Flashpoint 637 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 1: was created, written, and executive produced by Doug Mattica and 638 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: myself on behalf of seven nine ninety seven. Lead producer 639 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: is Alex Espastad, along with producers Jamie Albright and Meredith Steadman. 640 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: Our Associate producer is witt Lakassio, Editing by alex Espostad 641 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: with additional editing by Liam Luxon and Sidney Evans. Supervising 642 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: producer is Tracy Kaplan. Work by Station sixteen. Original music 643 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 1: by Jay Ragsdale mixed by Dayton Cole. Thank you to 644 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: Orrin Rosenbaum and the team at Uta Beck Media and 645 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: Marketing and the Nord Group. Special thanks to Angela q, 646 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: Tylie Revive, Mattica and Tim Livingston. For more podcasts like Flashpoint, 647 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app, or visit 648 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: us at tenderfoot dot tv. Thanks for listening. Thanks for 649 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,360 Speaker 1: listening to this episode of Flashpoint. This series is released 650 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:49,879 Speaker 1: weekly absolutely free, but for ad free listening, early access 651 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus on 652 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or at tenderfootplus dot com