Speaker 1: Check it down Man Now Down Now February Dating. The
Speaker 1: book podcast is Gill Alexander post Super Bowl, pre March Madness.
Speaker 1: I got the podcast episodes for you've, including one on
Speaker 1: the Major League Baseball season preview, all kinds of thoughts
Speaker 1: from Paul sport fan Grass will get into some season
Speaker 1: wins and some props. That's coming up first today. This
Speaker 1: one is precipitated by a long form ESPN dot com
Speaker 1: piece that was put out last week about the Tim
Speaker 1: Donahe NBA betting scandal from well a decade ago, and
Speaker 1: it was hailed by folks on the network as groundbreaking,
Speaker 1: path breaking, And it occurs to me that it ought
Speaker 1: to be time to dust off my old interview with
Speaker 1: Sean Patrick Griffin. This is a classic Sean Patrick Griffin,
Speaker 1: the author of the book Gaming the Game, The Definitive Account,
Speaker 1: an investigation of the Tim Donnahee betting scandal from so
Speaker 1: many years ago. This is a classic interview with sewn
Speaker 1: one of my favorite podcasts ever. In case you did
Speaker 1: not hear it so many years ago, it is here
Speaker 1: in full form right now for your enjoyment, a window
Speaker 1: to what is not only the biggest scandal in modern
Speaker 1: day sports history when it comes to betting, but also
Speaker 1: a reminder of how this could very well happen in
Speaker 1: some form at any time, maybe not in the NBA,
Speaker 1: but in any other kind of sport. I don't think
Speaker 1: it's that far fetched. Sean Patrick Griffin and the makings
Speaker 1: of the Tim Donnahee NBA betting scandal with all the
Speaker 1: betting characters involved, right here on the Beating the Book
Speaker 1: podcast and Joy Associate Professor of Criminal Justice at Penn
Speaker 1: State Abington, a PhD with a research area and organized crime,
Speaker 1: a former Philadelphia police officer, and an author of several books,
Speaker 1: which is why we have him here, most notably the
Speaker 1: author of Gaming the Game, the story behind the NBA
Speaker 1: betting scandal, and the gambler who made it happen. Sean
Speaker 1: Patrick Griffin, thanks so much for being on the show. Sean,
Speaker 1: thanks for having to Sean before we get into the book.
Speaker 1: Your background that I just ran through right there obviously
Speaker 1: jibes quite nicely with this story, and I'm sure it
Speaker 1: was a natural for you to be drawn to this
Speaker 1: subject matter in the first place. But was there a
Speaker 1: specific circumstance or event that directly precipitated you writing this,
Speaker 1: actually there was. I was actually out promoting my last book,
Speaker 1: and let me step back when when the scandal hit
Speaker 1: in summer of oh seven, like all sports fans, I
Speaker 1: was following the news and I thought I had a
Speaker 1: good grasp on the nature of the NBA betting scandal.
Speaker 1: And then by Marshall O eight, I'm out promoting my
Speaker 1: last book and ran into somebody who knew, somebody who
Speaker 1: knew the pro gambler, jim A. Fautista, who was one
Speaker 1: of the three, you know, the three conspirators in the
Speaker 1: NBA betting scandal, and he asked me if I would
Speaker 1: be interested in speaking with him. And the truth was,
Speaker 1: at that time, if you had interviewed me, I would
Speaker 1: have told you I was torn on whether they even
Speaker 1: meet with you mean Bautista, because you know, the thing
Speaker 1: had been through the criminal justice system and we all
Speaker 1: thought we knew the story. But I thought, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know that there's a story to tell,
Speaker 1: but I'll be interested. And the real reason I wanted
Speaker 1: to he with Batista actually wasn't the NBA betting scandal.
Speaker 1: It was because I knew from what little I had
Speaker 1: read and what from this person that told me that
Speaker 1: Batista had been in the betting world for decades and
Speaker 1: was connected to some of the biggest people in the industry.
Speaker 1: And I thought at that point, and I'm now convinced
Speaker 1: that it's true that no one had ever really interviewed
Speaker 1: the big time sharps in the business. As you mentioned,
Speaker 1: my background is organized crime research. Well, typically that means
Speaker 1: that you're researching if you're talking about gambling, you're researching
Speaker 1: low level bookmakers, you know, the guys in the corner
Speaker 1: tap room or the pub or whatever. And that's interesting,
Speaker 1: but but everyone's covered that. No one ever really covered
Speaker 1: the people who bet for a living. You know, millions
Speaker 1: of dollars every day, still bring money through Asia, Europe, wherever.
Speaker 1: So I figured if I could, if I could get
Speaker 1: access to this Sista, if he was credible and willing
Speaker 1: to talk about that in addition to talking about the
Speaker 1: NBA betting scandal, then it would be worth my while.
Speaker 1: Um And as I've said numerous times, I literally met
Speaker 1: with Fatista for half of an hour and I knew immediately,
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, public has no clue, gold model clue
Speaker 1: about the the NBA betting scandal, let alone this massive,
Speaker 1: massive underworld of big time sports gambling. So that's how
Speaker 1: that's how this all began back in a Wait, what
Speaker 1: a gold mine you realized that you had happened upon.
Speaker 1: So it occurs to me, Sean, I should probably give
Speaker 1: some context here before I ask numerous questions that I
Speaker 1: do have many of them, both macro and micro. But
Speaker 1: let's give some context. While everyone in the media, as
Speaker 1: you allude to there, was focused on Tim Donnahe and
Speaker 1: understandably so, since the NBA portion of the saga is
Speaker 1: obviously mammoth, and we had a first hand account from
Speaker 1: Donnahe in two thousand nine. Facts be damned by the way,
Speaker 1: but you had already done your research by that time,
Speaker 1: and you had decided you were going to write about
Speaker 1: this much bigger story of Jimmy Ba Ba the Sheep Batista.
Speaker 1: In fact, the first half of the book doesn't even
Speaker 1: touch on the NBA scandal, but describes the experiences that
Speaker 1: formed Batista. Why don't we start there to set the stage?
Speaker 1: How did he become this amazingly powerful figure in the
Speaker 1: gambling universe? You know, I'm glad you're asked me that question.
Speaker 1: I don't know how many dozens of interviews I've done,
Speaker 1: and that part of the book is ignored, and to
Speaker 1: somebody like me, I find that probably the more fascinating
Speaker 1: part of the story, and in fact, why that's the
Speaker 1: part of the story that Abby Wood interested in. Batista's
Speaker 1: start in betting World's actually interesting. He was involved in
Speaker 1: all sorts of shady things as a kid as a teenager.
Speaker 1: Nothing crazy criminal, but he was always a hustler. So
Speaker 1: you'll see in the book that there are discussions about
Speaker 1: him making fake driver's licenses back when you know that
Speaker 1: he was trying to help his buddies out in high
Speaker 1: school get driver's licenses though, so they can go drink
Speaker 1: anything like that. Well, he takes an arrest for drinking
Speaker 1: and driving while he's in high school, and that's also
Speaker 1: an occasion where his his scam of underaged licenses, of
Speaker 1: being manipulated. It was also exposed. As there is all
Speaker 1: of those arrests, he loses his driver, loses his driver's license,
Speaker 1: and his father is adamant that even though he's lost
Speaker 1: his driver's license and can't drive to work, he's got
Speaker 1: to get a new job. And if that means walking
Speaker 1: to work with arn't you're gonna walk to work. As
Speaker 1: luck would have it, the only place that to which
Speaker 1: she could walk was a local restaurant, and so he
Speaker 1: went there to ask for a job as a waiter. Well,
Speaker 1: he gets a job as a waiter at this local restaurant,
Speaker 1: and it turns out that the restaurant is owned by
Speaker 1: the area's bookmaking big shot. So the guy who's running
Speaker 1: the restaurant hires Batista as a waiter. Batista doesn't mind
Speaker 1: waiting tables, but he's totally blown away by the constant
Speaker 1: traffic coming in out of the restaurant to with this bookmaker.
Speaker 1: And there's a line in Gaming the Game that that
Speaker 1: really tells the story about why Batista found bookmaking embedding
Speaker 1: so fascinating and so important. He liked the idea that
Speaker 1: this restaurant owner slash bookmaker had so many people who
Speaker 1: wanted to be next to him and owed him so
Speaker 1: many things. And what he realized earlier early on was
Speaker 1: obviously the bookmakers make good money. Everyone loses, people very
Speaker 1: rarely win for continuous amounts of time, and people typically
Speaker 1: can't pay back their debts to bookmakers. And what he
Speaker 1: saw was bookmakers not only getting money, but they wind
Speaker 1: up getting favors. He loved the idea that everybody knew
Speaker 1: this restaurant owner, and this restaurant owner wouldn't have to
Speaker 1: pay for any number of services. So whether it was
Speaker 1: catering for this event, paying a bad for this whatever,
Speaker 1: everyone owed him so much money that he wound up
Speaker 1: getting all sorts of things taken care of. And that
Speaker 1: was just the way this guy lift his life. And
Speaker 1: Batista was totally fascinated by that, and so he starts
Speaker 1: getting roomed. He all. This guy was also a big
Speaker 1: part as once Fatista that point in time. So this
Speaker 1: old school bookmaker takes Batista under his wing, and that's
Speaker 1: how he gets tapped into the whole idea of Wow,
Speaker 1: I can have the legitimate guys of looking at a restaurant,
Speaker 1: but I can actually be involved in bookmaking and it
Speaker 1: looks great and it's obviously a great way to longer
Speaker 1: money if you were interested in that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: So how he got started. It's just a regular low
Speaker 1: level bookmaker. Isn't that amazing how life's circumstances just sort
Speaker 1: of guide you. The fact that he didn't have a
Speaker 1: car puts him in this restaurant and the rest as
Speaker 1: they say is history. It's obviously he becomes this amazing figure.
Speaker 1: It escalates from there, and you describe it in wonderful
Speaker 1: detail in the book. That's one of the great things
Speaker 1: about this book is not only is it an amazing story,
Speaker 1: but it describes the mechanics of what becomes Batista's betting
Speaker 1: operation in detail. It's fascinating from both angles. I think
Speaker 1: gambling audiences will specifically just love how this book goes
Speaker 1: from both angles without giving away every detail the book,
Speaker 1: how did Batista finally catch wind of Donahee? Shenanigans lead
Speaker 1: us up to that point? Okay, well, he won't be
Speaker 1: given too much away, because the bridge between Batista's low
Speaker 1: level bookmaking career locally in the suburbs of Philadelphia quickly
Speaker 1: migrates to a much bigger operation. That restaurant owner whose
Speaker 1: street name was Louis the Lump. Louis the Lump becomes
Speaker 1: partners with another major player in the Philadelphia area, a
Speaker 1: guy many of your followers may know whose name was
Speaker 1: Mike Wrener. He passed away several years ago, but Mike
Speaker 1: Werenier was a perfectly legitimate businessman who owned restaurants and
Speaker 1: supermarkets well he also had a massive bookmaking embetting operations.
Speaker 1: So when one partners with Vernier, he brings over the
Speaker 1: wait staff from Batista's restaurant. And as I say in
Speaker 1: the book, for most of the staff at at this restaurant,
Speaker 1: this was just a change scenery. But for Batista it
Speaker 1: was a life altering event because he thought he was
Speaker 1: a hotshot as a low level bookmaker. He had no
Speaker 1: clue how big you could be on the East coast
Speaker 1: of the United States, and Mike We're near was one
Speaker 1: of the most significant people on the East Coast. And
Speaker 1: the reason that's important, it really is about priming and
Speaker 1: your people who follow gambling or and know this if
Speaker 1: you look back at the late eighties or early nineties,
Speaker 1: which is roughly the time period I'm discussing, this is
Speaker 1: right when the Internet comes out, of course, and so
Speaker 1: when you see Batista story, you not only see this
Speaker 1: fascinating your eyes of hit of him within the bookmaking
Speaker 1: world and the betting world, but you're also by definition
Speaker 1: getting the rise of technology and the way that everything
Speaker 1: from cell phones, you know, the migration from pagers to
Speaker 1: cell phones changes betting, the way that the Internet changes betting,
Speaker 1: how information is now traveling so much faster. So that's
Speaker 1: one of the things I found most fascinating about the story.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting and funny. Batista and his cast
Speaker 1: of characters is hysterical if you sit down on the
Speaker 1: interview them. But you also whether you even I don't
Speaker 1: even think people realize how much you're learning as you're
Speaker 1: hearing them tapped into all this technology. Well, getting back
Speaker 1: to your question about how he winds up with Donegi,
Speaker 1: as he writes, is every year's operation, and he formed.
Speaker 1: They formed this subset of a betting syndicate they called
Speaker 1: the animals. They all had nicknames of animals. They were
Speaker 1: asked to operate an off shore sports book in Curasal.
Speaker 1: So you flash forward to two thousand and three and
Speaker 1: Batista is now Incourasal and Jim Donaghy at that point
Speaker 1: is an eight year NBA referee. Donnighie starts betting on
Speaker 1: his own games. We know, at least going back to
Speaker 1: the O two oh three season. Well, he didn't know
Speaker 1: what was happening with his bets. And what I mean
Speaker 1: by that is he was placing his bets with a
Speaker 1: good friend of his, a golfing buddy. Named Jackie Kennon.
Speaker 1: Jackie Kennon isn't a wise guy, He's not a handicap
Speaker 1: where he's just a regular guy. So he of course
Speaker 1: needed somewhere to place Donnigie's bets. He placed them with
Speaker 1: a friend of his named Pete Rogerry, who was a
Speaker 1: professional gambler. Pete Roggerry was getting on the phone and
Speaker 1: calling Jimmy Batista incourasal and until now an one has
Speaker 1: ever understood but what was it at Ruggieri's and Batista's
Speaker 1: interest and on these games, Hotta, They realized that these
Speaker 1: were an NBA referees games. And for the first time
Speaker 1: you'll hear what the teeth They explained, Jack Kingcannon historically
Speaker 1: was betting two thousand dollars for each NBA game, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden started betting five thousand dollars on
Speaker 1: certain NBA games. Five thousand dollar pets were winning at
Speaker 1: a ridiculous rate. So Ruggieri and Batista immediately said, okay,
Speaker 1: what is going on? What's the common theme with these
Speaker 1: five thousanding games, And of course it took him two
Speaker 1: seconds to realize it was games. Tim Donnegue was officiating,
Speaker 1: and they knew that King Cannon and Donnie were good friends,
Speaker 1: so they just assumed that those two had concocted some
Speaker 1: sort of scam, and for three full NBA seasons they
Speaker 1: simply copied the bets that Donnegue was placing on games
Speaker 1: he was officiating. Bunny Way, Tim Donniegue didn't know that,
Speaker 1: and he stilled game in the game came out until
Speaker 1: your book came out. He had no idea, no idea.
Speaker 1: He simply knew that he was telling King Cannon. He
Speaker 1: had no idea how but just to figure all this
Speaker 1: out until now, even after he actually met Buttist still
Speaker 1: like he didn't figure it out bet but that he
Speaker 1: never discussed it what it winds up happening when you
Speaker 1: flashed forward to the start of the O six oh
Speaker 1: seven NBA season. By now Donnie has been betting on
Speaker 1: his own games for three years, and the tief has
Speaker 1: been copying the bets, but never told anybody. Of course,
Speaker 1: as he says in the book, I wasn't stupid. I
Speaker 1: was gonna tell anybody I know about this. Well, Donneghie
Speaker 1: starts complaining about jacking kennon, not paying on betting debts,
Speaker 1: on betting wins, so he complains to a friend of
Speaker 1: his named Tommy and Martino. People who follow the NBA
Speaker 1: betting scandal will realize he's the third conspirator. Donny is
Speaker 1: the referee, Batist the pro gambler, and Martino they're friend
Speaker 1: from high school. So as a result of him complaining
Speaker 1: about jacking Kennon not paying on debt, which by the way,
Speaker 1: Jackie Kennon to this day animidly denies ever owing Donnigian
Speaker 1: and Nichol and says that if he said he met,
Speaker 1: thenisias breeding. Regardless, Martino sets up a meeting, that infamous
Speaker 1: meeting December twelve, two thousand and six, at the Philadelphia
Speaker 1: International Marriott. And it's at that meeting where Donni decides
Speaker 1: to switch from betting with Jackie Kennon to betting with
Speaker 1: Jimmy Batista. And that's what starts happening. On December when
Speaker 1: the Sixers are in town to play the Boston Celtics,
Speaker 1: donnage a freeing. That's the first game that he officiates
Speaker 1: that he bets on directly with Fatista. And what your
Speaker 1: listeners will appreciate that maybe the regular listeners you know
Speaker 1: who don't follow gambling won't The idea that Fatista is
Speaker 1: now getting direct access to Donnage is not trivial because
Speaker 1: he's going to get the pics earlier, which allows him
Speaker 1: to be the great betting lines over a longer period
Speaker 1: of time and increase his you know, his rate of return.
Speaker 1: So that was a huge thing for him. Absolutely, And
Speaker 1: give us an idea of that discrepancy. I know that
Speaker 1: he bet standard ten to twenty thousand dollars on an
Speaker 1: average NBA game. What was he betting on a Donna?
Speaker 1: He reft game one to two millions? Wow? Wow. So
Speaker 1: from ten to twenty thousand average to one to two
Speaker 1: million on a Donna he officiated game that The only
Speaker 1: the only reason he didn't that more was because the
Speaker 1: market you know, is not infinite. That was the most
Speaker 1: he could get down sure, which again that's where the
Speaker 1: gambling audience comes in, because folks know how tough it
Speaker 1: is to get down. In fact, you and I talked
Speaker 1: about Billy Walters off the air. His big skill set
Speaker 1: is figuring out a way to get all that money down. Well,
Speaker 1: that's well, Jimmy Fatista. For people who are not familiar
Speaker 1: with the story, are familiar with game in the game.
Speaker 1: Fatista's expertise was not as a handicapped He's not a
Speaker 1: sharp better. He simply worked for those people as a mover,
Speaker 1: and a mover simply somebody who takes those large bets,
Speaker 1: whether it's a few hundred thousand, whether it's a million
Speaker 1: or two, and bringing him into pieces and getting them
Speaker 1: down all around the world. Of course, it has to
Speaker 1: be done fairly, sufficient, sophisticated, and very quickly. And as
Speaker 1: you'll see if you read the book, people will feel
Speaker 1: realize that he had als everywhere Asia, all throughout Europe,
Speaker 1: all throughout the off shore, you know, in the particular places,
Speaker 1: especially cars out and he had a he had cruiser
Speaker 1: warners in Vegas and he just had That's that was
Speaker 1: his expertise. People sought him out. What are the things said? Now,
Speaker 1: I don't mean the sound naive, but I will admit
Speaker 1: I was blown away when I interviewed people who we
Speaker 1: worked with and for Batista and for whom he worked.
Speaker 1: And if you ask that crowd of people, well, I
Speaker 1: don't get it what made Batista so special, because Batista
Speaker 1: will tell you, look, I'm not a sharp gambler. I couldn't.
Speaker 1: There's a great line in the book where he says
Speaker 1: he couldn't get changed in the same closet as the
Speaker 1: sharp betters that he worked with. And I used to
Speaker 1: say I saw it, ask people, well, then, what made
Speaker 1: him so special? And their response was interesting, and I
Speaker 1: think two regular people, this is gonna sound goofy. And
Speaker 1: it was simply that he was trustworthy. He was diligent,
Speaker 1: he was hard working, He paid on losses, and for
Speaker 1: people in the gambling comut they might be saying, you know,
Speaker 1: those things are not taken for granted. You know the
Speaker 1: thing he was that guy who was willing, He was
Speaker 1: always available. You know. I described this operation in detail,
Speaker 1: and when I first took up with him, he still
Speaker 1: had his phone bag. He was infamous for this phone bag.
Speaker 1: There was a Crown Royal purple bag that helped his
Speaker 1: twelve cell phone. There were direct longings to each of
Speaker 1: his clients. You didn't ever want to have to mix
Speaker 1: up the packs or put somebody on hold, so every
Speaker 1: person got the direct phone. Wow. This book is filled
Speaker 1: with little details like this. Just awesome, And you're right,
Speaker 1: those are such rare commodities. Is trustworthiness in the gambling community?
Speaker 1: I have so many questions here Sean. So where do
Speaker 1: I begin. Let me start with the bigger ones, so
Speaker 1: that I don't forget those later. I want to take
Speaker 1: this from every perspective. Let's start with the NBA. How
Speaker 1: did the n b A not know this? In other words,
Speaker 1: do you buy that the NBA is ignorant enough that
Speaker 1: they honestly didn't know about Donnahee's years of gambling? Or
Speaker 1: do you believe they might have known but feared a
Speaker 1: pr disaster We're simply hoping the story would somehow fade
Speaker 1: into oblivion, or is that second option giving the NBA
Speaker 1: far too much credit. I obviously spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time on this. I spent some time in the book.
Speaker 1: I've spent a ton of time on my website about this.
Speaker 1: The NBA thout of four and five and five and
Speaker 1: six six seasons, I can possibly give them the town
Speaker 1: about not seeing the obvious. And in case the public's wondering,
Speaker 1: why am I segmenting those three seasons out compared to
Speaker 1: the O six oh seven season? If people regain the game,
Speaker 1: there's an appendix. And then the appendix includes betting line
Speaker 1: data from three major sports books. And the reason I
Speaker 1: included those I think there's just been too much mythology
Speaker 1: about the scandal, and in no small part due to
Speaker 1: Donaghy and his ridiculous book and other claims. Um So,
Speaker 1: I wanted to put put it all out there. If
Speaker 1: I had access to betting line data or betting records
Speaker 1: or whatever, I put it in there so that this
Speaker 1: could all be resolved once and for all. And what
Speaker 1: you'll see is the betting lines in the OH three
Speaker 1: to oh six seasons move, but not nearly as radically
Speaker 1: as they do in OH six oh seven. And that's
Speaker 1: for the reason we discussed earlier. Batista is now getting
Speaker 1: access to those picks a lot, a lot earlier in
Speaker 1: the day, and the line get moved throughout the course
Speaker 1: of a day. So I can excuse the NBA for
Speaker 1: not seeing the betting lines in those three seasons if
Speaker 1: that was their way of tracking this. The problem, however,
Speaker 1: is people may not realize this. Donicky was almost fired
Speaker 1: in two thousand and five for off the court behavior,
Speaker 1: including gambling, and so the NBA actually interviewed people and
Speaker 1: investigated him for gambling. Now you can obviously questioned, like,
Speaker 1: don't forget it, think about the irony kill. That's Mack
Speaker 1: in the middle of ending on his own names and
Speaker 1: they miss it. So so I don't know how serious
Speaker 1: that investigation was. Obviously they didn't see this, apparently, you know.
Speaker 1: And anyway, so you go to O six O seven.
Speaker 1: That's where the NBA has got a serious problem. And
Speaker 1: the reason I say it is because the betting line
Speaker 1: data tell you all you need to know. That part
Speaker 1: of the book is interesting because the sports books managers
Speaker 1: all shore, they knew about this. They were profiting from it,
Speaker 1: they were copying the bets. So what Batista said? I
Speaker 1: asked Batista why he didn't agree to clossway with the
Speaker 1: NBA when they were doing their Petui study. People may
Speaker 1: remember the NBA did to study. It was called the
Speaker 1: Pettis Report after the the author of the study, Very
Speaker 1: pettu Wid, an attorney from New York. Well. I asked
Speaker 1: thea Tis though why he didn't cooperate with the NBA,
Speaker 1: and his response was, I didn't believe that they really
Speaker 1: wanted to know what happened. I don't. I never believed
Speaker 1: that they didn't know about what we were doing. That
Speaker 1: somebody in the NBA had to have known, especially Bio
Speaker 1: six or seven. How was it that the programmering community
Speaker 1: knew we were copying our bets. People in sports books
Speaker 1: knew they were moving the line the consideration of the bets.
Speaker 1: How is it that somebody had to have heard something.
Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense to me as a gambler. He
Speaker 1: said that. But he also said something interesting, which was
Speaker 1: he didn't cooperate with the NBA. He was convinced they
Speaker 1: would never ever conclude they they would never produce a
Speaker 1: study which concluded the Donnity six games because their losses.
Speaker 1: How would you ever calculate losses in lawsuits? People, you know,
Speaker 1: franchises have lost lottery picks, people are lost playoff slotting.
Speaker 1: You know, he taken horse. So he that's why he
Speaker 1: disagreed with what the NBA was doing and didn't cooperate.
Speaker 1: And so when I stepped back, and when you get
Speaker 1: to that part of the book, I actually they walk
Speaker 1: the reader through what the NBA had access to, what
Speaker 1: they should have known, and I actually give suggestions at
Speaker 1: the back end of the book of what they could
Speaker 1: do to further understand this. So wouldn't happen again. If
Speaker 1: you're enjoying my interview with Shawn Patrick Griffin, author of
Speaker 1: Gaming the game from twenty eleven is always. Support for
Speaker 1: today's show comes from Bookmaker dot eu and industry leader
Speaker 1: for close to thirty years where the lines originate. Because
Speaker 1: chances are the sports book at which you've been betting
Speaker 1: follows their lines. And right now, once again, if you
Speaker 1: visit bookmaker dot eu slash gil that's Bookmaker dot eu
Speaker 1: slash g I l L, you can claim an exclusive
Speaker 1: welcome bonus of up to three hundred dollars. That's Bookmaker
Speaker 1: dot eu slash gill to join and claim your welcome
Speaker 1: bonus of up to three hundred dollars right now. And
Speaker 1: here's what you need to know from March Madness, because
Speaker 1: they're gonna have a couple of contests over their big
Speaker 1: Bracket contests. The first a sixty three team bracket with
Speaker 1: a one million dollar perfect Bracket prize and then n
Speaker 1: K to the winner, five K to second place for
Speaker 1: third place, and with every completed bracket getting a prize guaranteed.
Speaker 1: All players will get one free entry and then can
Speaker 1: purchase more at ten dollars each. All the details at
Speaker 1: Bookmaker dot eu slash March hyphen Madness go to Bookmaker
Speaker 1: dot E slash gill get your welcome bonus, then enter
Speaker 1: the contest at bookmaker dot eu. All the information for
Speaker 1: the contest at bookmaker dot e slash March hyphen Madness,
Speaker 1: and they're going to have a second chance bracket contest
Speaker 1: for the Sweet sixteen as well. We'll give you all
Speaker 1: the details as well for that coming up bookmaker dot
Speaker 1: eu slash gil. It is the place to be. Well
Speaker 1: all of that is why I asked that question initially,
Speaker 1: because it is such a curious part of all of this.
Speaker 1: And you mentioned your appendix, Sean, which to me is
Speaker 1: really and correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't that really
Speaker 1: the unassailable part of all of this? It really is
Speaker 1: the smoking gun, because there it is in black and white.
Speaker 1: This is the data. We can all give our opinions
Speaker 1: on whatever, but here's the stats. This is in many
Speaker 1: ways the key part to everything. Oh that was well,
Speaker 1: that was why I put it as an appendix. By
Speaker 1: the way, I was concerned. I'm a I'm an academic
Speaker 1: by trade, so I didn't want to bore people, but
Speaker 1: I was so frustrated by here's the easiest way to
Speaker 1: say this. There are certain parts of the story that
Speaker 1: will forever be doing he said this. Martino said that
Speaker 1: the said this Regent right, But there are certain things
Speaker 1: that are irrefutable, and that's why the appendix is there.
Speaker 1: And if you've got access as I did, to the
Speaker 1: tiefa's betting records, the FBI files that the public has
Speaker 1: never seen, to the betting line data from the sports books,
Speaker 1: that was my whole point of doing that, because I
Speaker 1: am I have been so frustrated at the way this
Speaker 1: has been treated in the media as oh, law, we'll
Speaker 1: just never know. No, that's not true. The numbers don't lie,
Speaker 1: and then they are Listen. I'm a numbers guy, and
Speaker 1: that's why I loved that you included that as well,
Speaker 1: because to there it is once again, if you were
Speaker 1: up in the air after all that, here's the appendix.
Speaker 1: Check it out. So follow up to what we were
Speaker 1: just talking about. Then, I have a couple of follow
Speaker 1: up questions, and forgive me Sean, as I'm just going
Speaker 1: to say these as I think of them. With the NBA,
Speaker 1: now that this is all transpired, you know, the scandal
Speaker 1: has occurred, were on the other end of it, Perhaps
Speaker 1: any indication that there are any more vigilant about this
Speaker 1: now than prior to the scandal because David Stern seems
Speaker 1: awfully calmed to me. They claim that they now are
Speaker 1: following betting lines, which they never did before. You know,
Speaker 1: the NFL for years has tracked betting lines, and they've
Speaker 1: got people with their your good ground tracking any weird
Speaker 1: betting line moves, the end being never did bet They
Speaker 1: now claim to not only be following betting lines, but
Speaker 1: they say that they now have a computer model that
Speaker 1: is connecting somehow betting line movement with individual level referee
Speaker 1: call data. The only reason I'm a skeptic with that
Speaker 1: is there, of course not releasing any referee call data.
Speaker 1: I asked for it when I was doing research for
Speaker 1: the book because I am familiar with a pro gambler
Speaker 1: who has done that or the research. He actually seriously
Speaker 1: tracks NBA referee call data, sure, and his research showed
Speaker 1: that Donny was off the charts when it came to
Speaker 1: certain things like illegal calling illegal defenses which you know,
Speaker 1: very very rarely is done combing the ball. You know,
Speaker 1: Donnie the gamblers always told me that the way Donnie
Speaker 1: was fixing games was that he was calling calls that
Speaker 1: were technically correct but often ignored. And that's why they
Speaker 1: wouldn't be you know, view with a you know, a
Speaker 1: scan I because that they are technically true calls. Before
Speaker 1: you go on that detail, right, there might be the
Speaker 1: funniest thing about all of this to me, because Donnahy
Speaker 1: makes a point, doesn't he with his wording all the time,
Speaker 1: whenever he was on a record, he always said, I
Speaker 1: was not making incorrect calls to advance my beast. You're
Speaker 1: very good at this. That's exactly right. And so you
Speaker 1: just mentioned what he was doing. In essence, if we're
Speaker 1: to believe the folks you talked to, is he was
Speaker 1: actually calling basketball correctly, palming illegal defenses like I have
Speaker 1: this image of Dr James Naismith with a peach basket
Speaker 1: under his tweed suits saying, if finally there's a ref
Speaker 1: who calls this game as I imagined it's and his
Speaker 1: name is Tim Donaheye, of all of all people in
Speaker 1: the world, that's amazing to me. Well, I the only
Speaker 1: reason that's that's actually probably the only data set that
Speaker 1: I had that it didn't include in the book, and
Speaker 1: it was only because um I was on the verge
Speaker 1: of getting a much fuller data set, which I'm not
Speaker 1: Actually if it's not going to be in the paperback version.
Speaker 1: I'll actually just play it up on my website. But
Speaker 1: the one I was also accessed UM. I also accessed
Speaker 1: another data set, and that is included in the book.
Speaker 1: You can actually track splits of referees. So, for instance,
Speaker 1: typically a referee you will call san against one, ten
Speaker 1: calls against one team, eight against another, fifteen or twelve.
Speaker 1: It's always fairly down the middle. But Donneghe's games have
Speaker 1: splits of fourteen, two thirteen. I mean, they're ridiculous. And
Speaker 1: that's the point, and that's why I include I. That's
Speaker 1: why we said it onment ago. The appendix has all
Speaker 1: of at and you know, let's all lets our users
Speaker 1: can flue what they may, but to me, it's irrefutable
Speaker 1: what was going on in those games. Yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: need to go off on a tangent on that point specifically,
Speaker 1: but that to me is so funny because it's so
Speaker 1: damning about the NBA, just on a complete aside from
Speaker 1: this actual story, the fact that folks just aren't even
Speaker 1: calling games and Donna he actually called these games correctly anyway,
Speaker 1: just a side point, But you brought up something else though,
Speaker 1: Sean you mentioned there somewhere in the middle that offshore
Speaker 1: sports books admit readily about being aware of what was
Speaker 1: happening and cashed in. Big time sports books in Vegas
Speaker 1: had to have been complicit as well, Right, they're not
Speaker 1: acknowledging this in Vegas. Well, I only spoke with um
Speaker 1: two sports books managers directly in research for the book,
Speaker 1: and they each now I must pressace this and your
Speaker 1: listeners will get a check out of this. I'll give
Speaker 1: you one example because it speaks to the bigger problems
Speaker 1: I have with this project. I find I get in
Speaker 1: touch as one sports book manager of a major sports
Speaker 1: book was always quoted in the media. It was a
Speaker 1: very popular guy with the media where that's some rather
Speaker 1: interesting things to say about the NBA scana, which is
Speaker 1: why I contacted him. I explained what I was doing,
Speaker 1: what my research was showing, and I of course had
Speaker 1: data from the sports book. So when I first started
Speaker 1: talking to him, I said, by the way, I have
Speaker 1: to compliment you on your sports book. I hung out
Speaker 1: there last summer when I was doing rests is a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, when I was doing research for
Speaker 1: the game. In the game, I spent time in Vegas,
Speaker 1: hanging out in the sports books with all the runners,
Speaker 1: and so I said, I hung out with runners in
Speaker 1: your sports book, when he cut me off and said, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: so we don't have runners in our sports book. And
Speaker 1: I said, no, you're not understanding me correctly. I'm not
Speaker 1: asking you. I'm telling you I was in your sports
Speaker 1: book with the runners. That was part of the research
Speaker 1: from a book. And he said, no, no no, no, we
Speaker 1: don't have runners. Runners are illegal out here. And I thought, oh,
Speaker 1: I know how this interview is gonna go. I wasn't
Speaker 1: in your sports book, Rock, I'll convince myself of that.
Speaker 1: I was not in your sports book with the runners.
Speaker 1: Go forward, and I tell him what the paper show,
Speaker 1: and I've got acts us these betting lines. And he said, well,
Speaker 1: if the betting lines moved that way, we would have noticed.
Speaker 1: And I said, no, no, once again, we're going back
Speaker 1: to this hypothetical. This isn't hympothetical. I'm giving you the
Speaker 1: betting lines. And he said no, no, no, that couldn't
Speaker 1: have happened. We would have noticed. And I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: this is a fruitless pursuit here. And that's why I
Speaker 1: wrote in the book the sports book managers have a
Speaker 1: problem because the FBI reached out to people like this
Speaker 1: guy during their investigation. Now you're one of these sports
Speaker 1: book managers, You've got one of two options. You either
Speaker 1: say yes, we saw those betting lines move, at which
Speaker 1: point the FED will say, well didn't occur to you
Speaker 1: to tell anybody like us, or or they asked to say,
Speaker 1: oh wow, how did we miss That is not a
Speaker 1: good good proposition for them. They have to either show
Speaker 1: the require of it or or incompetent, And which is
Speaker 1: why I had an awkward conversation with the sports book manager.
Speaker 1: So they have not admitted hargn record acknowledging what when
Speaker 1: I present in the book a d eight percent of
Speaker 1: listeners to this pod know exactly who you're speaking about
Speaker 1: as well. By the way, let me let me ask
Speaker 1: you about this quote from Batista, because I'm guessing you
Speaker 1: have a different opinion of this. Bautista says famously in
Speaker 1: the book, here do I think stuff like this involving
Speaker 1: corrupt officials going on in other leagues? He says absolutely,
Speaker 1: the money involved is too big to ignore. He goes
Speaker 1: on to say, you have to consider a financial situation
Speaker 1: for these officials they're making pennies compared to the athletes,
Speaker 1: people get jealous. Also, don't forget how much some people
Speaker 1: like to gamble. Once somebody owes a bookmaker some cash,
Speaker 1: who knows what they do to pay off their debt. That, obviously, Sean,
Speaker 1: is the big question that folks like to ask. I
Speaker 1: suppose the conspiracy theories that we so love to toss
Speaker 1: around would lend to that conclusion, for sure. But I'm
Speaker 1: guessing you're not quite as convinced that similar scandals exist
Speaker 1: in the NBA or another leagues, are you? No, not
Speaker 1: at all? For one reason, the chiefs gave that quote.
Speaker 1: You know, I believe him. Don't forget that he's a gambler,
Speaker 1: so he's always he's just as everyone hustling all the time. Um,
Speaker 1: when I when I hung out with pro gamblers and
Speaker 1: with the Cruiser of runners and all that, I heard
Speaker 1: all sorts of incredible stories, and many of which I believe,
Speaker 1: about inside information being transmitted between all sorts of parties.
Speaker 1: But what I never heard was evidence of other officials
Speaker 1: altering dame outcomes and any of the four major sports
Speaker 1: in the United States. And so, as I say over
Speaker 1: and over, I'm not naive enough to say it can't happen.
Speaker 1: I'm simply saying that. Over and over all I heard
Speaker 1: was how excited people were when they heard that an
Speaker 1: NBA official was fixing his games, which is why they
Speaker 1: copied them, because it was such an anomaly. They couldn't
Speaker 1: believe there was an official one of the four major
Speaker 1: sports betting on his own games and fixing the outcomes.
Speaker 1: And so it's it's just inconceivable that I was living
Speaker 1: in this world. I spent two and a half years
Speaker 1: doing the research for this book, traveling all over the place,
Speaker 1: getting access to all betting records, and that entire underworld.
Speaker 1: I never heard a word of other people involved beyond Donnigie,
Speaker 1: whether it was in the NBA or other other sports.
Speaker 1: So and and I took I took particular attention, of course,
Speaker 1: um to the NBA scandal from Oth three to Go seven,
Speaker 1: because it was always a life that Donnaghie had partnered
Speaker 1: with other referees. Everyone knew about Scott Foster and the
Speaker 1: phone calls and all that, and so I really looked
Speaker 1: into that to see what evidence there was, if any
Speaker 1: of that. And that's another reason those betting records are
Speaker 1: important because there's no evidence based on what Batista was
Speaker 1: betting or on the betting lines, that other referees were
Speaker 1: influencing game outcomes. You don't interview Donnahee in this book
Speaker 1: because Donnahie's claims were so fictitious to begin with that
Speaker 1: there wasn't a point. Would that be a fair characterization? Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were. I don't even want to call them laughable.
Speaker 1: I it's it's difficult to be to convey to people
Speaker 1: how wildly, patently, demonstrably false dozens of his key claims
Speaker 1: are and that that's me. By the way, I don't
Speaker 1: even get into dealing with Donnighie's claims in the book.
Speaker 1: It just wasn't worth my time for the reader. And
Speaker 1: I actually do have all of that up on my website.
Speaker 1: If people want to go to Sean Patrick Griffin dot
Speaker 1: net Sean S. E A N. Patrick Griffin g R
Speaker 1: I F F I N dot net, they'll see there's
Speaker 1: an entire section of the website devoted to the NBA
Speaker 1: betting scandal. Oh, this is important. Go In addition to
Speaker 1: the appendix of the book where I want to solve
Speaker 1: a lot of this, I also had a lot of
Speaker 1: data that wasn't really useful for the book, but that
Speaker 1: will also help people if they ever really wanted to
Speaker 1: understand the NBA betting scandal. So QUURT files, QURT documents,
Speaker 1: FBI files, whatever I could put up on the web,
Speaker 1: I put up on the web again because I want
Speaker 1: all the mythology resolved and included in that. I have
Speaker 1: a blow by blow section of my assessment of ten
Speaker 1: Don's claims, and it has to be if you printed out,
Speaker 1: it's probably fifteen pages. Shan. I have to tell you,
Speaker 1: I love this part of your website. Actually did some
Speaker 1: research on your website for this interview. I'm sure you're
Speaker 1: gonna launch into it. But he obviously claimed insider knowledge
Speaker 1: and par from officials and locker rooms, and that he
Speaker 1: bet some of his own games and some of the
Speaker 1: ones he didn't. Could you talk about debunking those specifically? Sure?
Speaker 1: Well here, as I said, we could do this for hours,
Speaker 1: but I'll give us an easy ones. He says that,
Speaker 1: as you just said, he says that his betting success
Speaker 1: was not based on what he was doing on the court,
Speaker 1: that it was simply based on his access to quote
Speaker 1: unquote inside information that he would gather, especially in the
Speaker 1: locker rooms in the run up to an event. There's
Speaker 1: a famous quoler he said he knew he knew to
Speaker 1: pick an hour before a game because of what he
Speaker 1: was hearing. Well, you can do this a variety ways
Speaker 1: for starters. Batista's betting all day long, way before Donna
Speaker 1: he ever gets to an arena. Beyond that, with respect
Speaker 1: to his claim that oh, I been equally on games
Speaker 1: I didn't officiate, he says NEO six oh seven season
Speaker 1: is in particular that he'd been on six team games
Speaker 1: he officiated and fourteen didn't. That that's a key claim
Speaker 1: because it's his whole point. It wouldn't matter, of course,
Speaker 1: if he was officiating. If inside information really was the
Speaker 1: reason he was waiting. Well, there were four people, as
Speaker 1: we discussed earlier, who were privy to this. Donnigan was
Speaker 1: betting through Tongue Artino, his high school buddy, who was
Speaker 1: transmitting the information to Jimmy Battista, and this kind of
Speaker 1: Pete Ruggieri was copying the bets. Well, what the public
Speaker 1: never knew until now was pet Riggerry and Tommy Martino
Speaker 1: cooperated with the government even pendently. So the public has
Speaker 1: never heard what those two people said, and of course
Speaker 1: no one before I got got access to Batista had
Speaker 1: ever talked to Petissa. Well, what you see is all
Speaker 1: three people independently because until now no one knew, you know,
Speaker 1: no one did the Martino had cooperated, including Roggieri. No
Speaker 1: one knew what Ruggieri had told the FEDS, and no
Speaker 1: one knew what Patiffa had said. So when you look
Speaker 1: at their statements, they're all in agreement. There were no
Speaker 1: bets on games that Donny he wasn't officiating. There was
Speaker 1: a period in January of oh seven, and in this
Speaker 1: everyone's in the agreement where Donnie he tried bending on
Speaker 1: other NYDIA referee games, but he lasted a few games,
Speaker 1: they were losers, and Patissa said, I don't want those
Speaker 1: bets any longer. So when you look at just the
Speaker 1: statements of the witnesses, there is no support for his
Speaker 1: contention that he was betting equals on other referees games.
Speaker 1: Beyond that, and again we go to the appendix, you
Speaker 1: can text this because you can look at Batista's bed
Speaker 1: in records. Well, there you're no record of him betting
Speaker 1: on non domage games. That's why the ten to twenty
Speaker 1: dollar NBA game thing versus the one that two million
Speaker 1: on Donneghe's games was noteworthy. Beyond that, you can track
Speaker 1: betting lines, and that's what I do. I break down
Speaker 1: for the public. Okay, here heard of betting line moves
Speaker 1: on donneghe games versus everyone else. From December of those
Speaker 1: six three below oh seven, during the key part of
Speaker 1: that season, his lines were moving four or five six
Speaker 1: points for NBA games. That's unheard of, and the percentage
Speaker 1: of games that moved that much are way more than
Speaker 1: the rest of the NBA. And there's a reason that
Speaker 1: bets are only on donaghese games. So that's that's probably
Speaker 1: the easiest way to summarize the whole issue of whether
Speaker 1: it was quote unquote inside information. By the way, this
Speaker 1: is a special for your especially for your audience. I
Speaker 1: don't get into this on general sports rade your shows,
Speaker 1: but your audience will appreciate it. People took the time
Speaker 1: to look at what he calls inside in for nation,
Speaker 1: You're probably any percent of your audience is privy too
Speaker 1: quote unquote inside information. It was. I think I think
Speaker 1: it was lost on Donnegi that pro gamblers and people
Speaker 1: who simply follow gambling are totally aware of relationships between
Speaker 1: certain coaches and certain teams and certain referees and all
Speaker 1: of that, And there were some other specific things. And
Speaker 1: again that is just off the top of my head, Shawn,
Speaker 1: but very widely publicized that he would talk to officials
Speaker 1: in locker rooms and he knew information from those officials,
Speaker 1: But bets were made hours prior to that, right, so
Speaker 1: that couldn't have been relevant at all. Whatsoever. You should
Speaker 1: listen your your audience knows that you can't get two
Speaker 1: million dollars down on the game, of course, fifteen minutes
Speaker 1: or an hour. Absolutely, and and that's the key people
Speaker 1: never understood if the people regaining the game. And it
Speaker 1: gets to the appendix. I tried to be methodical about
Speaker 1: how you can disprove all of this. So whether, as
Speaker 1: I said earlierhe it's the betting records, the betting line data,
Speaker 1: or whatever. And there's a subsection about the sociology of betting.
Speaker 1: How Batista was doing the betting, Well, it was entirely
Speaker 1: counter to the idea that Donnie's gonna call Hey frantically
Speaker 1: and however before a game and get in a call.
Speaker 1: That's not how this has done. And there was something else.
Speaker 1: And forgive me, Sean, I know I'm being scattered braied
Speaker 1: about this, but I mean some of these details were
Speaker 1: so fascinating, and we'll be fascinating too many. You mentioned
Speaker 1: a donnahe Mom Dad code that goes completely counter to
Speaker 1: believing his story as well. Well, that's you know what.
Speaker 1: Thank you for reminding me. This doesn't even require any
Speaker 1: betting expertise. But and this I actually they didn't even
Speaker 1: require me. But for some reason, no one picked up
Speaker 1: on this. What the three conspirators all told the fads
Speaker 1: was that there was a code mom and Dad meaning
Speaker 1: Mom for home, Dad for a way. The idea was
Speaker 1: that Donnaghan never wanted to be on the phone with Fatista,
Speaker 1: so they would go through Martino. So donnighe would placed
Speaker 1: his bets with Martino. Martino would tell what, tell Batisa
Speaker 1: what the bet was, and they would you this code.
Speaker 1: And as I explained in the book, he's over minding
Speaker 1: all the overwhelming data that I give the public, even
Speaker 1: if you simply looked at the code. Well, if there
Speaker 1: are six NBA games tonight and donnighe called Martino and says, yeah, Mom, Well,
Speaker 1: what the hell does he know? What that means he
Speaker 1: it only works if you know what game you're betting.
Speaker 1: Games were Donnage's games, right, He's only giving it once.
Speaker 1: It has to be a Donnaghee game because there's so
Speaker 1: many games on the schedule. How else would they know,
Speaker 1: right exactly that there's just there are so many ways
Speaker 1: to do that. And by the way we're used, I'm
Speaker 1: talking about the key claims, you know, and Donneghe's book
Speaker 1: gets into the FBI's investigation. He gets the investigation entirely wrong.
Speaker 1: He gets how it started wrong, and gets what he said.
Speaker 1: It's I've always been struck by the fact that he
Speaker 1: was so ignorant for naive that somebody, whether it's going
Speaker 1: to be me or somebody else, you're not going to
Speaker 1: be involved in one of the biggest scandals in US
Speaker 1: sports history, and somebody's not going to take the time
Speaker 1: to get the files, get the court records and put
Speaker 1: together the story. I don't know what he was thinking,
Speaker 1: that somebody wasn't gonna come along and say, well, whoa
Speaker 1: is that didn't happen, and here's the file that didn't happen,
Speaker 1: and here's what the judge says. That didn't happen. And
Speaker 1: here's what the U. S. Attorney says. Do you say
Speaker 1: the Bureau of Prison said this, Well, here's what they
Speaker 1: told me. I don't. I don't know what he was thinking, Sean.
Speaker 1: Isn't that the funny part about any crime committed that
Speaker 1: has any way of tracking it, where they're like, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get away with it, you know, just complete
Speaker 1: tunnel vision on what they're doing. I'll never get caught
Speaker 1: doing this. It's so funny. You know. Don't remind me
Speaker 1: of you know, you and I off air, Uh, we
Speaker 1: were talking briefly about how Oprah was involved with Skype. Well,
Speaker 1: Oprah was on my mind as I was reading Jim
Speaker 1: Domu's book and and some of your audience may remember,
Speaker 1: Oprah was involved in that massive scandal of a book
Speaker 1: called A Million Little Pieces, which was written by an
Speaker 1: author named James Fry. It was a scandal. It was
Speaker 1: a scandal, of course for people who don't know. The
Speaker 1: book was about overcoming addiction and Oprah needed her Book
Speaker 1: of the Month club, which automatically near the New York
Speaker 1: Times bestseller And it was discovered by the Smoking Gun
Speaker 1: dot com that James Fry had cooked all all the
Speaker 1: story involving criminal justice. They had gone to get the
Speaker 1: Quirk files and realized that his stories that were on
Speaker 1: the issues that you could check we're wildly wrong, if
Speaker 1: not totally focused. Well, I had argued over and over
Speaker 1: again that Tim Donnegie's book is the sports version of
Speaker 1: James Fries a million little pieces, because for anything you
Speaker 1: can check out, it's totally focused. That's great. I never
Speaker 1: thought of it that way. By the way, Oprah and
Speaker 1: her final shows apologized profusely to James Fry for coming
Speaker 1: down so hard on him. It's very I heard that.
Speaker 1: I heard the one of her girlfriends had told asked her,
Speaker 1: who do you think that's right? Who? Who allowed you
Speaker 1: to judge another human being? That's right? Let me tell
Speaker 1: your audience, I feel perfectly comfortable judging another human that's right.
Speaker 1: We have no qualms about that here, Sean, none whatsoever.
Speaker 1: What's also hilarious about this? In the end. I don't
Speaker 1: know if hilarious is the right word, but it is
Speaker 1: kind of amusing that in the end. Certainly, not the NBA,
Speaker 1: but even the f B I didn't bring this down,
Speaker 1: did they. It had nothing to do with their investigation. Initially,
Speaker 1: no nobody can take credit for this other than a
Speaker 1: pro gambler. We mentioned earlier that pro gambler Pete Rogerry. Well,
Speaker 1: what app what lines up happening. Oh and by the way,
Speaker 1: this is going to debunk another don key Donnigie claimed,
Speaker 1: which I'll mention at the end of this. So the
Speaker 1: scandal is going throughout the O six oh seventh season.
Speaker 1: On March eighteen, two thousand and seven, Gi meant Fatista
Speaker 1: that goes into drug rehab. At that point, he sets
Speaker 1: it up that Pete Rouggerry is now going to work
Speaker 1: with Donneghie and Martino. Well, the scandal goes on for
Speaker 1: a handful of games more, and it's Pete Rouggerry, not
Speaker 1: the NBA, not the FBI. It's a Ruggieri who shuts
Speaker 1: the scheme down because he realizes by this point the
Speaker 1: betting lines are flying all over the place. The moment
Speaker 1: they start betting on Donneghe's games, people from all over
Speaker 1: the world are copying the bets. The word is out.
Speaker 1: So it's Pete Rouggieri who shuts the scheme down. Now,
Speaker 1: the reason that's important with respect to Donnege's claims, just
Speaker 1: to bring that back again, Donnie keeps saying, by the
Speaker 1: way his story changed when he put out a book,
Speaker 1: people need not have realized this. What he told the
Speaker 1: FBI during his negotiations was one thing. What he wrote
Speaker 1: in his book and has said on the media tour
Speaker 1: is something wildly and totally different, including this piece where
Speaker 1: he now says over and over again that he was
Speaker 1: relieved when Jimmy Batista went in drug rehab because you know,
Speaker 1: Jimmy Batista, of course was the arm of the Gambino
Speaker 1: Prime family forcing him to bet on games. Well, of
Speaker 1: course you get access to the FBI files and of
Speaker 1: course there's no reference whatsoever to organize Prime ever um
Speaker 1: they never ever, of course charged Martino or Batissa with extortion.
Speaker 1: And beyond that, the FBI tells us that from February
Speaker 1: of O seven through April of O seven, Donnighie had
Speaker 1: started setting again with Jack Kie Kennon and was now
Speaker 1: betting not only with the Pisa but with King Cannon.
Speaker 1: And when Patissa goes in drugg reab, he's been a virgerry.
Speaker 1: So relieved he was that Batistas in't drug rehab because
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have to bet on games any longer. And
Speaker 1: the truth he was setting an entire time and in fact,
Speaker 1: as like quote Tommy Martino in the book, Donnighie can
Speaker 1: plane and begs the one more game when he's heard
Speaker 1: Petergero shutting the scheme down, didn't Ruggieri finally just stop
Speaker 1: with donnahe and Martino because he realized they were just
Speaker 1: idiots pretty much. Yes, she said there are fools was
Speaker 1: his word. Ye. So you know, I could spend hours
Speaker 1: talking just about Donnig's ridiculous claims, but I want to
Speaker 1: give one to a gambling audience. Say through this for
Speaker 1: a second, he has been squares with anybody in your audience.
Speaker 1: Donnighie claims that throughout the oh three oh four, of
Speaker 1: four oh five and oh five or six seasons, he
Speaker 1: was betting on his games for thirty to forty games
Speaker 1: a year. Now, that, of course, is when he's betting
Speaker 1: with Jack and Cannon, and he has to pay if
Speaker 1: he loses. Now the O six oh seven season, when
Speaker 1: he has cut his it was to me, fatista. The
Speaker 1: deal is he is paid for his wins, but does
Speaker 1: not have to pay all his losses. Given that set
Speaker 1: of circumstances, Tim Donnaghie this self professed gambling addict, does
Speaker 1: he best thirty are games nowadays, this unbelievable deal where
Speaker 1: he doesn't have to pay on losses. You know, Donnikie
Speaker 1: claims during that season he only bet on sixteen games.
Speaker 1: This is ridiculous. So you know, and as I say,
Speaker 1: I could walk people through those for hours. And that's
Speaker 1: why I didn't take the time to do it in
Speaker 1: the book, because I didn't want to humor his nonsense.
Speaker 1: I there was a great story to tell, a fascinating
Speaker 1: story to tell, and I wanted to keep it tight
Speaker 1: and the things that are provable. That's why I realized
Speaker 1: as much as possible on FBI files, hastic interviews with
Speaker 1: FBI as into US Attorney's officials, the judges commenced, the
Speaker 1: court record all the stuff that actually happened. So only Martino,
Speaker 1: Batista and Donnahy end up serving time, and hordes of
Speaker 1: pro gamblers everywhere, I imagine got away unscathed with untold
Speaker 1: millions in all of this. That's exactly right. I actually
Speaker 1: wound up tracking down I count seven. So why I
Speaker 1: know profited from this. I'm sure it's anymore, but I
Speaker 1: all I can speak with conviction about seven. Wow, by
Speaker 1: the way, that one of the other things you're gambling
Speaker 1: an audience to a role. Though, if you get access
Speaker 1: up Tommy Martino's FBI interviews as I did, what do
Speaker 1: you think happens when this scandal starts where Tommy Martino
Speaker 1: becomes the intermediary he easually calls, but is in Costa
Speaker 1: Rica who's working at a sports book to give him
Speaker 1: the fexts every day that they come in. And of course,
Speaker 1: why wouldn't you have you know, right, why wouldn't that happen?
Speaker 1: And that's why it's tough to say how many dozens
Speaker 1: of people by the time you get to March or
Speaker 1: April o seven, how many people were betting on these
Speaker 1: games having no clue what the actual conspiracy was, but
Speaker 1: they were just watching the line. I know I would
Speaker 1: have done it. I would have done the same things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that's well, that's that's why, going way back in
Speaker 1: our interview to your question about the NBA, that's why
Speaker 1: it's it's almost unthinkable a during the six o seven season,
Speaker 1: somebody somewhere hadn't heard about this. It's it's it's hard
Speaker 1: to believe possible, I suppose, but really hard to believe.
Speaker 1: So how does Batista in the end not end up
Speaker 1: on a sandy beach somewhere. How does that happen? Well,
Speaker 1: of course that's a matter of aversity about it. Like
Speaker 1: Batista claims that um in the months leading up to
Speaker 1: him going into drug where we have for the first
Speaker 1: time in his career, one of the things Batista was
Speaker 1: proud about was that he never gambled. Ironically, he didn't
Speaker 1: like gambling and he he wasn't good at it, so
Speaker 1: he never gambled on his own. He gambled on behalf
Speaker 1: of other people, but it wasn't his money and it
Speaker 1: wasn't his picks. Will For the first time ever, he
Speaker 1: actually started gambling in early oh seven. Now, of course,
Speaker 1: not only is a gambling on his own, well, he's
Speaker 1: not a gambler. He doesn't know what he's doing. He
Speaker 1: starts betting online poker. And here's where something fascinating and
Speaker 1: really bad happens, because Batista is managing other people's offshore
Speaker 1: accounts there in his name, but they're on behalf of
Speaker 1: his clients of course, so it's really his clients money
Speaker 1: he's using. He starts betting big, big poker games online
Speaker 1: for millions of dollars, and of course he's high on prescriptions, goals,
Speaker 1: and it's a game of chance anyway, and he's just
Speaker 1: clicking away. Well, it's not his money, what could go wrong?
Speaker 1: He so he washes away millions of dollars and the
Speaker 1: willia to Batista. Uh, he was millions of dollars in
Speaker 1: debt by the time he went into drug rehab and
Speaker 1: left the business. Um. And as I say in the book,
Speaker 1: Batista says that after he went into rehab, he contacted
Speaker 1: his clients, each of whom excused excused him of his debts,
Speaker 1: of his debt for them, uh, and wished him well
Speaker 1: on his recovery. And I should tell you that since
Speaker 1: the book came out, one of them through in each mediary,
Speaker 1: contacted me and said, he may think that I excused
Speaker 1: him all the best. I'm wishing him well, but I
Speaker 1: liked my money bag. That could be news about Tista
Speaker 1: right there. So he did fifteen months in jail. He
Speaker 1: is not involved in gambling, to the best of your
Speaker 1: knowledge anymore. Not only does he say he's not involved,
Speaker 1: to his experience of getting jammed up in the criminal
Speaker 1: justice system, spooped a bunch of people. I'm calling you
Speaker 1: from the suburbs of Philadelphia, and there are a bunch
Speaker 1: of people around here who left the business convinced that
Speaker 1: the FBI was not done their investigation. And by the way,
Speaker 1: I should tell them that they're right. Uh. The phase
Speaker 1: has always viewed Batista as the key to the castle.
Speaker 1: They were hoping to flip him, not necessarily about the
Speaker 1: NBA any scandal, but because they you knew how that
Speaker 1: entire massive off shore banking system worked, and that really
Speaker 1: is a focus of them still to this day, gaming
Speaker 1: the game. I am devouring this book. In fact, I
Speaker 1: can't wait to continue reading. By the way, shout out
Speaker 1: to my good friend and guest every Wednesday on the
Speaker 1: podcast on the Benning Dorick, Vegas runner, who is a
Speaker 1: Philly guy, was the first guy who made me aware
Speaker 1: of the book as well, and he is endlessly fascinated
Speaker 1: with the book and it is familiar with many of
Speaker 1: the characters in the book from his days in Philly.
Speaker 1: So big shout out to him. I know that you
Speaker 1: have seen him promoting your book as well. Yes, no,
Speaker 1: it's been it's been fantastic. It's always rewarding when people
Speaker 1: who know the story say this accurate. So last questions,
Speaker 1: then this is just for me to you. I'm curious
Speaker 1: about this. What did you find in all of your research,
Speaker 1: your whole arc through beginning to the completion of this
Speaker 1: What did you find most fascinating in your researcher What
Speaker 1: surprised you the most? Well, your audience will laugh at
Speaker 1: my answer, But I just didn't grasp how much money
Speaker 1: was being wagered every day, especially offshore. It's never been discussed.
Speaker 1: It's it's never been discussed how that money is brought back.
Speaker 1: That was one of the things that blew me away. Okay, fine,
Speaker 1: I can understand that somebody sits at home, clicks the
Speaker 1: mouse and places of betting her hotel, but no one
Speaker 1: has ever walked somebody through, well, how the heck all
Speaker 1: that money come back? And so I was just blown
Speaker 1: away that there are these suburban gamblers who are regular guys.
Speaker 1: If people actually sat down as I did with these gamblers,
Speaker 1: they're not at all what I was expecting. I don't
Speaker 1: know what other people are expecting. You know, there's a
Speaker 1: funny line in the book about a friend of theirs
Speaker 1: going up to Nagness to meet these pro gamblers and
Speaker 1: expecting to see people who look like their promotions eleven
Speaker 1: or something desprissing four fat guys in a in a
Speaker 1: room with the boxes because they just live in front
Speaker 1: of those computer screens watching the lines move. And you know,
Speaker 1: actually that's actually a funny story. In the book, they
Speaker 1: were based about a block and a hand off of
Speaker 1: the strip and literally never went to the strip. They
Speaker 1: had no need to go to the strip. They had
Speaker 1: runners crews for that, and they had no time for nightlife.
Speaker 1: They just worked constantly. So I guess for me that
Speaker 1: was the thing I found so mind boggling was that
Speaker 1: there were so many people who took this that seriously
Speaker 1: and that they were betting so much damn money. I
Speaker 1: just had no clue. I're so not used to all that,
Speaker 1: and I made by by the way the reactions of
Speaker 1: the book are that I'm apparently in the memeing with
Speaker 1: that most people other than people who really follow gambling
Speaker 1: had been blown away by the idea that there are
Speaker 1: people betting millions of dollars every day as a business. Oh,
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think mainstream wise, no question
Speaker 1: about it. That's the prevailing sentiment. And then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, you do your research and you find something
Speaker 1: quite different. How do you follow this up? Sean? Are
Speaker 1: you working on another book? Now? Well, I'm torn on this.
Speaker 1: I actually this is gonna sound silly. Demon The game
Speaker 1: is not a light read. It's we are in some pages.
Speaker 1: And yet I had so much material I left out,
Speaker 1: especially about the real serious mechanics of big time gambling
Speaker 1: and logistics of it. And I've always planned on rating
Speaker 1: at the desk and academic paper for an academic journal
Speaker 1: about that. But I have so much material I may
Speaker 1: actually write a book on on the whole I don't
Speaker 1: know where I called sport, but on the whole science
Speaker 1: I guess the art and science of mathematical handicapping. But
Speaker 1: that's actually part to answer questions. To answer your question
Speaker 1: a moment ago, what I found fascinating somebody like me.
Speaker 1: I'm a sports fan, and I've had We've all heard
Speaker 1: people on sports radio for years saying, Okay, well, you know,
Speaker 1: Penn States playing Ohio State next week. It's at a
Speaker 1: higher state, so that's three points for home fielder and
Speaker 1: all that stuff. And until I got into this and
Speaker 1: really hung out the shark gamblers, the whole process of
Speaker 1: how they are looking at numbers was totally foreign to me,
Speaker 1: and so I have an entire wealth of information that
Speaker 1: I could use and I probably will, if not for
Speaker 1: a paper, certainly for a book on real serious, high
Speaker 1: end sports handicapping, but actually can say handicapping and mathematical
Speaker 1: analysis really what I'm talking well, I think I speak
Speaker 1: on behalf of everybody when I say we look very
Speaker 1: much forward to that one. But before we even get
Speaker 1: a chance to read that book, anyone who has not
Speaker 1: gotten a copy of this one, I strongly urged them
Speaker 1: to do so. Gaming the game once again, the story
Speaker 1: behind the NBA betting scandal and the gambler who made
Speaker 1: it happen. And I don't know that I did enough
Speaker 1: justice to that gambler who made it happen the Jimmy
Speaker 1: Bautista portion of that book. But you know, for as
Speaker 1: much time as we spend on the NBA betting scandal,
Speaker 1: the experiences that led to Jimmy Bautista becoming Baba or
Speaker 1: the Sheep just really fascinating stuff, Sean, And kudos to you.
Speaker 1: Just a great book, fascinating reading. Like I said, I'm
Speaker 1: kind of addicted to it right now. I'm rushing to
Speaker 1: read more of it later on today. Give that website
Speaker 1: one more time for everybody, because you've got some great
Speaker 1: information on there. Sure it's Sean Patrick rift dot net
Speaker 1: gaming the game once a d the name of the book.
Speaker 1: Check it out, Sean Patrick Griffin, Sean, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for being on the show. Like