1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg IHOD podcast, and 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: I'm Philip Blugger Cranzler, senior editor for cryptot Bloomberg News, 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: in for Stacy Marie Ishmael. It is Friday, February the 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: twenty fourth. Hello, and welcome to another This Week in 5 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: Crypto episode. Coin Base reported earnings again and it wasn't pretty. 6 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: A big loss and training volumes missed estimates, and the 7 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: prospect of more layoffs seems to remain very much alive. 8 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: In Nigeria, the Central Bank is seeking technology partners for 9 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: developing its digital currency called the Nira, and Hong Kong 10 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: is making strides in its effort to embrace crypto and 11 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,279 Speaker 1: may even have the TACIT approval of the central government 12 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: in Beijing. So to help me break down the latest 13 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: developments in the world of digital assets in person, I'm 14 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: joined by Bloomberg editors Best Williams and Anna Irrera. All right, 15 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: we're here in the London studio for the first time, 16 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: I believe all three of us, Beth and Anna, welcome 17 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: gathered here in the London studio. Anna, obviously you are 18 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: a resident of London and you've been here before. Beth, 19 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: is your first time, isn't it? Not to London? No, 20 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: but the first time in a while. I was supposed 21 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: to come right before COVID and then of course that 22 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: changed everything. But most certainly first time in the London studio. 23 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: In the London studio, yes, And I usually dial in 24 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: from Zurich. So it's very nice to sit here with 25 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: you guys, face to face and talk about all things crypto. 26 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: And so let's get into it. Coin Base ported earnings 27 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: fourth quarter earnings this week, and it was not very pretty, 28 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: was it, Beth. Can you give us the sort of 29 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: potted highlights of what they came up with? Yes? Not pretty? 30 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: Is it one way to frame it? There were was 31 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: expectations that it was going to be bad. It was bad. Yeah, 32 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: down in a big way. And while they beat expectations 33 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: for these reduced revenue or less of a loss, their 34 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: revenue was actually down some seventy five percent from a 35 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: year ago, Transaction revenue tumbled, Trading volumes were down actually 36 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: twenty three percent, and they've been losing coin Base is 37 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: affected obviously that they're a crypto exchange, so if trading 38 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: volumes are down, they're going to be hurt. We know 39 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: what happened in the fourth quarter of twenty twenty two. 40 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: FTX imploded, the market went down, and then just finally 41 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: on the stock. The stock fell more than eighty percent 42 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, and it's had quite a rally 43 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: in coming into this year, along with the rest of 44 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: the crypto market in general and other crypto stocks. Whether 45 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: it has further to go is anybody's guests and analysts 46 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: are a little cautious about it. Even the company itself 47 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: is cautious. The CFO on the earnings call said not 48 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: to make a lot out of the January and February 49 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: rebound in crypto necessarily, even though they've seen trading volume increase, 50 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: and they've also said that they are going to keep 51 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,959 Speaker 1: headcount at least where it is, and they may even 52 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: cut more jobs. So there's definitely not a sense that 53 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: they're out of the out of the woods. Yet that 54 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: was interesting to me that they would not basically rule 55 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: out more job cuts. I mean, you've had you saw 56 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: them take out about twenty percent of the workforce earlier, 57 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: and then you've had this massive or you know, fairly 58 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: substantial rally across crypto, and these sort of cautious comments 59 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: that they're making and would you how would you read 60 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: what's your read on that coin? Miss has been through 61 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: the winters before, right, they're one of the oldest sort 62 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: of og crypto exchanges. They've been at it before, so 63 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: you know, you could be a little bit confident that 64 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: they at least know how to shrink and expand very quickly. 65 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: The difference here now is that they're public, right, they 66 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: were in public before, so everybody can take a close 67 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: look at their numbers and can scrutinize, and they have 68 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: investors they have to respond to, and they will have 69 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: like investor relations and speak to people. So I imagine 70 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: they're having to be more cautious because they can't even 71 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: signal to the market that things are picking up. And 72 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,799 Speaker 1: you know it has picked up, but volumes are nowhere 73 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: near what they were last year, and it takes several 74 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: months of rally before your fees go back to what 75 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: they were before. Right, And as much as they have 76 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: been diversifying, I think the biggest era where exchanges make 77 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: money as trading fees. So if volumes don't pick up, 78 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: they don't, so maybe they can start thinking of ways 79 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: to make money on other things that are kind of 80 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: like crypto winterproof. I don't know, I was thinking maybe 81 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: things like analytics, like stuff that's different. I'm thinking, like, 82 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: you know, traditional exchanges had to reduce their reliance on 83 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: rating fees, you know, especially in equities when fees were compressed, 84 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: and so we saw them buying technology companies and becoming 85 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: software providers. So I wonder if they'll start thinking of 86 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: ways to do that. But obviously they have less money now, 87 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: so they can't really go out and buy things. So 88 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: it's just an interesting thing to see if they can 89 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: sort of if they survive this winter, and then if 90 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: they can future proof their exchange for another crypto winter. 91 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: And I'm going to make a pretty big switch now 92 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about central bank digital currencies 93 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: CBDCs in Nigeria. So Anna, you were part of this 94 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: story this week about the Nira and some of the 95 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: developments there. Can you talk a little bit about what's 96 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: going on? So? Yeah, So this week we reported that 97 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,239 Speaker 1: the Central Bank of Nigeria is looking for new partners 98 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: for the Nira, which is the central bank digital currency 99 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: that they launch in twenty twenty one, which made them 100 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: the first African nation to launch the central bank digital 101 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: currency on one of the first nations in the world, really, 102 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: because a lot of central banks are talking about it, 103 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: especially the big ones, but very few have launched them. 104 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: They're looking for a new partner, not to replace bit 105 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: which is their current partner straight away, but what they 106 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: want to do, based on what sources have told us, 107 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: is that they want to take more control of the 108 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: system so that they control the ledger and it's their own. 109 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: So the discussions are early days, but it just shows 110 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: how like things are changing and moving, and it raises 111 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: many of the questions that you know, we have when 112 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: we think of, you know, a digital ear or a 113 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: brick cooin, which is like when is it coming? When 114 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: will I be able to pay my coffee with a 115 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: digital year. I don't know if you guys think about 116 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: it when you wake up, I don't put some people 117 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: might right, right, but but you know, one of the 118 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: things is like you're you're planning now for a token 119 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: that a product will come out in like five years, 120 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: and so you know, if you if you think about it, 121 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: the technology you might be deciding to implement now might 122 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: be really bad in five years. And so this this 123 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: shows how like complex it is, and maybe the you know, 124 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: central banks that rush to put out things before maybe 125 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: find themselves now in a situation like a technological situation. 126 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: Then it's not ideal. And as Beth knows because she 127 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: edited a really great piece earlier this year, the Innira 128 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: has had really not great adoption, as have other CBDCs 129 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: that are out there, because one of the big questions is, yeah, kay, 130 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: you put it out, but like, does anybody want to 131 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: use it? What's the point? Isn't one of the points 132 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: here that you have, As you said, Nira is very 133 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: much in a developing country. Britcoin is very much in 134 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: a developed country with a fairly robust fintic infrastructure already. 135 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: Doesn't Nigeria have a good case here when it comes to, 136 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: you know, wanting to establish a CBDC in a more 137 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: sament developing environment. On the face of it, yes, I 138 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: think that is one of the main pushes behind it 139 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: to get to the quote unbanked population. And they're even 140 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: allowing you to be able to use the use the 141 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: Nira via mobile phone. You don't even have to have 142 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: a digital wallet. They're doing those kinds of technical innovations. 143 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: One of the issues that's come up with. Then Ira 144 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: in terms of adoption is very funny because it kind 145 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: of relates to crypto. Two, as a developing nation and 146 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: one with sort of a struggling economy. They've have rampant inflation, 147 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: they have a devaluing currency. The economy is not doing 148 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: so well, and many Nigerians are fleeing to crypto, as 149 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: in the cryptocurrencies like bitcoin and tokens like that, and 150 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: not the Nira, which they see as a proxy for 151 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: this currency that's devaluing. And so for them, they don't 152 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: see any protection. They don't they see better use in crypto, 153 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: which actually confusingly that you know, the central bank is 154 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 1: against that kind of crypto, the crypto that we all 155 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: think about, and they're trying to promote this central bank 156 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: digital currency that a lot of people don't want, though 157 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: they do want crypto. And so you've got this weird 158 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: disconnect going on in Nigeria. And that's another issue on 159 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: top of the technical issues that Anna mentions, which which 160 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: it's true, you want to make sure that that one 161 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,359 Speaker 1: should get it up and running, that it's actually gonna 162 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: not get hacked or or you know, break otherwise, and 163 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: we'll be right back after the break with Anna Errera 164 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: and Beth Williams. I do want to move further east 165 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: now and talk a little bit about Hong Kong. We've 166 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: done a smattering of stories about Hong Kong and the 167 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: sort of tentative embrace of crypto and Hong Kong as 168 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: an outlined a plan to let retail investors trade digital 169 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: tokens like bitcoin and ether. That's a major step towards 170 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: the city's goal of becoming a crypto harbor in a 171 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: policy shift for contrast with the crankdown we're now seeing. Beth, 172 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: could you do sort of briefly tell us a little 173 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: bit about what's happening there lately. Hong Kong was a 174 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: financial powerhouse for much of recent decades, and lately, with 175 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: China's increasing control, seeing sort of a fleeing of of 176 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: that financial power and influence. Um, Phil you yourself have 177 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: moved from Hong Kong to Zurich. Sort that's when things 178 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: started going really downhill for the Hong Kong um. But 179 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: starting in the fall, uh, you know, China and has 180 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: been supporting and Hong Kong has been trying to reinvigorate 181 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: its incentives and attractiveness to the financial community, including crypto. 182 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: So they have come out with some recent proposals and 183 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: regulations that are more crypto friendly. You can trade crypto futures, 184 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: and they recently came out with a proposal that's going 185 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: to lead toward retail investors being able to trade the 186 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: spot cryptocurrency. Yeah, they haven't completely specified, but it seems 187 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: like it would definitely be those two and another large one. 188 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: But the interesting aspect of the Hong Kong situation is 189 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: that China, which was a huge incubator of all things crypto, 190 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: crackdown on the industry basically banned it over a year ago. 191 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: Now there's a sense that Hong Kong, with its ties 192 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: to China, has a lot of people saying could this 193 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: possibly be leading to or signaling some kind of pivot 194 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: from China. And we just recently reported Bloomberg reported that 195 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: some Chinese mainland liaison officers have been asking questions and 196 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: seeing how things are going in Hong Kong. So there's 197 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: raising this expectation that perhaps China could change course a little. 198 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's that's a big statement, and 199 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 1: I think that would be a long way off. I mean, 200 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: they were pretty severe in the pullback that they made. Yeah, 201 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: and there's another aspect here in that Singapore which sort 202 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: of stole the crown early on in the race, Hong 203 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: Kong was trying to buy itself out of the COVID depths, 204 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: and Singapore now has kind of gotten a little bit 205 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: of cold feet, you know when it comes to retail 206 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: trading our crypto, and do you see that Hong Kong 207 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: perceived potentially like a little bit of a gap here 208 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: to start stealing a march on. I think it's now 209 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: just funny how you have the SEC, not just the SEC, 210 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: but all yours authorities being so aggressive that even someone 211 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: saying well, let you trade bitcoin and either seems like 212 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: such a giant concession. It's I mean, it's you know, 213 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: we went from trade whatever thing you can find on 214 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: against crypto and find like there's no problem to now 215 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: like we'll let you trade bitcoine either and everybody being excited. 216 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: And I think it just shows how, you know, it's 217 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: it's interesting. Throughout crypto's history, we've had waves where the 218 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: volumes were coming from Asia at the very big like 219 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: not very beginning, but early rally days, a lot of 220 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: the volume was on Chinese exchanges, which led people to think, 221 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: you know, how do we know that it's true? And 222 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: there were instances of wash trading that were like documented 223 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: by figures that are still in crypto these days. And 224 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: so like we've had crackdowns, and then from crackdowns cryptos 225 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: moved to another region and then it's come back, and 226 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: you know, it's just a question of like moving somewhere. 227 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: It's just like very shifty crypto, it moves from place 228 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: to the next. But the wonder is, you know, people 229 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: are very much talking about is the US dad, we 230 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: see them, everybody leave? Is there no interest? But you know, 231 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: it's it's a massive domestic market. That's where the money is, 232 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: That's where finances in the end. And so I wonder 233 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: whether really, you know, maybe trading will move to Hong 234 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: Kong for a few years and then once rules get 235 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: in commonplace in the US, or people find another way 236 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: to like skirt them with like some big giant narrative 237 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: about some other new thing, they go back and then 238 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: they get cracked down again. But I don't I don't 239 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: know if anybody will get like the crown for good, 240 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: like if we measure you know, crypto hubs by the 241 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: size of investments and startups and innovation. And in the end, 242 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: it's really, you know, always the US. But if we 243 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: measure it by trading volumes, and it's a bit different 244 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: because in one case, we don't even know where the 245 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: exchange is based, like Finance is the biggest change. We 246 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: don't know where their headquarters is. So would you say 247 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: their volumes are you? Could you judge it by their users, 248 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: like do we trust that users or where they say 249 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: they are. It's just like a giant, you know, conundrum. 250 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: I guess we'll have to wait a few months and 251 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: see how it goes for Hong Kong in its crypto endeavors. 252 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: Anna and Beth, thank you so much for joining me. 253 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: Thank you. This was Bloomberg editors Anna Errera and Beth Williams. 254 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: You can find more of their work on the Bloomberg Terminal, 255 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg dot com and on Twitter, and for more, 256 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: be sure to check out our twice weekly newsletter, Bloomberg Crypto. 257 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. 258 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 259 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, 260 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: or suggestions for the show to Crypto at bloomberg dot net. 261 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: The supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Vergelina. Our 262 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: senior producer is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Farouk 263 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: and Sharon Barrero. Our associate producers are Ty Butler and 264 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: Moses on Them. Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original 265 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: music by Leo Sidron. I'm Stacy, Marie Ishmael. Have a 266 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: great weekend.