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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not just definitely

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Speaker 1: never told you protection of iHeart Radio. Samantha. Do you

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Speaker 1: know what the twenty two Merriam Webster word of the

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Speaker 1: Year is? Oh, woke? Right? No, well it might be

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Speaker 1: for another dictionary publication source, but not for Miriam Webster. Wait,

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Speaker 1: what is the word? Okay, keep going, It is gas lighting. Yes,

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Speaker 1: such a word of the year is gas lighting. I

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Speaker 1: have seen some very interesting takes about that. I find

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Speaker 1: it interesting. The word of the year I always find

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting because I feel like gas lighting has

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Speaker 1: been a big thing for a long time in our

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Speaker 1: modern parlance. But I've I'm surprised. It's like when they're like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is the word of the year, but you know,

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Speaker 1: we got a lot going on, right So the reason

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Speaker 1: I thought woke is because I knew they were being

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Speaker 1: snide about what was happening right now in like politics

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Speaker 1: and Twitter and all of this. So I was trying

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Speaker 1: I couldn't remember because like, of course we'll come back

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Speaker 1: to but like this whole like anti woke thing has

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Speaker 1: kind of a guest light. It goes, it goes there, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's in there. Yeah, Well, I mean that's that's kind

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Speaker 1: of the like the branching reactions I've seen to it.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it has been that sort of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: so boke, you poor sect gas lighting. But I'm like

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Speaker 1: cas legs everywhere. Um. Anyway, a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of emotional sounds to this. Sorry like that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to keep it all in Me and

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Speaker 1: Bridget a while back did an episod vote on a

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Speaker 1: gas lighting one oh one the history of it. So

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Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode. Hi, this is Annie, and

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Speaker 1: this is Bridget, and this is stuff Mom never told you. Um.

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Speaker 1: And we wanted to start out today with a trigger

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Speaker 1: warning because we're going to be talking about gas lighting,

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Speaker 1: which is a form of mental and emotional abuse. So

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Speaker 1: if that is a trigger for you, probably best that

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Speaker 1: you skipped this episode. Yeah, all right, so let's start

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Speaker 1: with a definition, shall we. Yeah. I wonder if most

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Speaker 1: people are familiar with it. Probably not, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But when someone explained it to me, it was like

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Speaker 1: so many things fell into place, because I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have experienced this and they don't realize

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Speaker 1: that they have. Yeah, sometimes giving folks a name for

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Speaker 1: what they are experiencing or have experienced, can be very liberating,

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Speaker 1: can be sort of oh that's what it was, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you can start to pinpoint the behaviors. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: from Encyclopedia Britannica. Gaslighting and elaborate and insidious technique of

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Speaker 1: deception and psychological manipulation, usually practiced by a single deceiver

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Speaker 1: or gas lighter on a single victim over an extended period.

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Speaker 1: Its effect is to gradually undermine the victim's confidence in

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Speaker 1: his own ability to distinguish the truth from falsehood, right

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Speaker 1: from wrong, our reality from appearance, thereby rendering him pathologically

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Speaker 1: dependent on the gas lighter in his thinkings or felix.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so the definition you're right, it really does.

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Speaker 1: And you read that definition. It's almost impossible to not

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Speaker 1: look back on your prior relationships or family relationships or

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Speaker 1: friendships or whatever and think, oh, that person who treated

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Speaker 1: me weird, like made me feel really weird, and I

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Speaker 1: always question am I okay? Am I crazy? Am I

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Speaker 1: over sensitive? Am I blowing up at nothing? You know,

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Speaker 1: that person who filled you with self doubt? It's easy

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Speaker 1: to look back and say, oh, that's what was happening, Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: and you touched on a lot of the common phrases

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Speaker 1: you might hear. Um. And for me, when I learned

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Speaker 1: what this is, there's someone of my family who's really

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Speaker 1: good at this, and I like, once I learned what

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Speaker 1: it is, Now when when it comes up, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: able to like say, nope, nope, I'm being perfectly reasonable

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Speaker 1: and how I'm behaving, you can't just dismiss me. So

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Speaker 1: the goal of gas lighting is to make you doubt

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Speaker 1: your own ability to perceive reality. And some common phrases

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Speaker 1: that you might hear, um, are you sure you're remembering

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Speaker 1: that correctly? You know you have a bad memory. Um,

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Speaker 1: you're making things up again. You're too sensitive, Like you said,

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Speaker 1: bridget Um, you'll never find someone as good as me.

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Speaker 1: It's all on your head. It slowly chips away at

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Speaker 1: the target self esteem. And it's so so, so so effective,

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Speaker 1: so effective that it's a frequent tool of dictators and

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Speaker 1: cult leaders. Oh that actually sounds familiar to me, does it?

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Speaker 1: And there actually might be someone who is a who

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Speaker 1: you might think of as a bit of a dictator

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Speaker 1: who is doing that. Now. I don't any names, but

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Speaker 1: well we might say some names later. Another part of

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Speaker 1: this is the illusory truth effect, and that's when someone

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Speaker 1: believes something mostly because they've heard it so much before.

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Speaker 1: This is really problematic and a lot of things, but

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Speaker 1: it comes up in politics. If you just hear something

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Speaker 1: over and over, you start to believe it, even if

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Speaker 1: you've only heard it, like from one person saying it

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Speaker 1: over and over again. So gas lighting touches on that

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Speaker 1: because if someone repeatedly tells you, oh, you're you're overacting,

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Speaker 1: you're being sensitive, over time, you're going to start to

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Speaker 1: think in your own head like I guess I'm over

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Speaker 1: reacting and being sensitive. And this is different than the

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Speaker 1: occasional like differences in memory or denials or blackout drunk behavior, um.

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Speaker 1: Everyday gas lighting as it's called, this could be human

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Speaker 1: error or defensiveness, but that doesn't mean it isn't harmful.

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Speaker 1: But today we're going to mostly focus on deliberate use

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Speaker 1: of gaslighting. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned blackout drunk. Um.

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Speaker 1: We have a glad of great examples from pop culture,

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Speaker 1: but there's one netsticks in my mind, which is this

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Speaker 1: book Grow on a Train. Have you ever read it? Um?

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Speaker 1: I've been pretty open about my love of drink. The

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Speaker 1: show like when you when you're someone who drinks or

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Speaker 1: that you have use substances that like mess with your memory.

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Speaker 1: That can be its own kind of weird. Um. I

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Speaker 1: don't say gas lighting, but it is a bit where

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Speaker 1: you you kind of are dependent on others around you

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Speaker 1: to fill in like oh, what did I do last night?

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Speaker 1: Or what happened last night or whatever? Um, and how

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Speaker 1: sort of that can leave you kind of vulnerable for

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Speaker 1: that kind of behavior sometimes gas lighting. A gas lighter

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Speaker 1: will use that to their advantage or too, like further,

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Speaker 1: because they want to control the other person. So if

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Speaker 1: you're depending not a substance, than they might like both

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Speaker 1: encourage you to get more addicted and then like blame

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Speaker 1: you for it and also like yeah, control the narrative

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Speaker 1: of what what did you do? And Girl on the

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Speaker 1: Train is a great example of that or that's pretty

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Speaker 1: much the whole plot. Spoiler yeah, oh yeah, sorry he

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Speaker 1: has been out for a couple for a while. Oh boy,

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Speaker 1: it was like five years. Um. The name gas lighting

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Speaker 1: comes from a nineteen thirty nine British stage play called Gaslight,

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Speaker 1: which was later produced into two films, the UK's nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty gas Light and in nineteen forty four in the

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Speaker 1: US under the same name starting Ingrid Bergman, and the

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Speaker 1: plot of the movie is about an abusive husband doing

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Speaker 1: his best to convince his wife she's losing her mind. Um.

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Speaker 1: He does so by convincing her she's a kleptomaniac. And

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Speaker 1: the sound she's hearing and the dimming of the gas lights,

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Speaker 1: she is seeing her all in her head, so she

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Speaker 1: won't know what our real truth is That her husband,

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Speaker 1: who was married to Ingrid bermings character Aunt, is trying

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Speaker 1: to find the families lost jewels that's hidden in the house. Um.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and he murdered the aunt by the way,

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Speaker 1: for the jewels. Yeah. But it just goes to show

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Speaker 1: how it's all about controlling her ability to perceive things realistically,

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Speaker 1: and that he uses that as a way to conceal

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Speaker 1: his own bad behavior. Yeah, exactly. It's you're flipping it

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Speaker 1: around too. Usually, um, when it's in relationships, since it's

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Speaker 1: to hide like cheating or if you've got like a

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Speaker 1: gambling addiction and you want to turn, you want to

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Speaker 1: flip the script around and put it on the other person.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, this movie pretty much encapsulates it, and it

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Speaker 1: did become the term. She finally realizes at the end.

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Speaker 1: She clings to the fact like these gas lights are dimming,

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Speaker 1: these glass lights are dimming. And the only way she

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Speaker 1: like realizes that, yes, they are dimming, she is not

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Speaker 1: losing her mind is when the police show up at

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Speaker 1: the end and they say, well, the guests, it's so

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Speaker 1: dim the whole time. I'm not crazy, Yeah, which is why,

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Speaker 1: UM an important thing is to have like a support

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Speaker 1: group or people outside of that relationship that can verify

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Speaker 1: the truth for you. Yeah. I had a friend who

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Speaker 1: had a major gas lighter in her life, and one

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Speaker 1: of the ways that the person used gaslighting was by

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Speaker 1: trying to make her think her her own friends like her,

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Speaker 1: the outside sources that you were saying, trying to break

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Speaker 1: down the trust there. And so this person would say

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Speaker 1: things to her like, you know, well, your friend agree.

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Speaker 1: I talked to your friend and they agree with me,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, no, they didn't. That's a made up thing.

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Speaker 1: But by if you say that enough, you start to

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Speaker 1: not trust the people that you look at as your

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Speaker 1: as your support system and your trust system your outside people.

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Speaker 1: And so I really was able to see that as

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Speaker 1: a tactic of isolating her, making her feel like they

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Speaker 1: were the only person that would tell her the truth

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Speaker 1: and be real with her, and they they were all

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Speaker 1: that she had, and that the people that she grew

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Speaker 1: up with, that she considered like her sisters, like her

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Speaker 1: support we are actually you know, talking to about her

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Speaker 1: and you know I thought she was being crazy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And that is a hallmark of a gas lighter. They

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Speaker 1: will try to bring in your support group and either

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Speaker 1: like break down the trust with them or even say like, well,

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Speaker 1: Annie agrees with me, and even though I don't, like,

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Speaker 1: they're just gonna group use me two further their their

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Speaker 1: control in the relationship, their power and relationship. And since

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Speaker 1: um Gaslight the movie came out, there's now so many

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Speaker 1: examples of this in media, and one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: known recent ones that maybe people who watched it didn't

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Speaker 1: pinpoint is Jessica Jones. The main villain in that kill

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Speaker 1: Grave is gaslighting her all the time. He's telling her

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Speaker 1: without like because he does have special powers, but without

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Speaker 1: using them. He's telling her like, this is what happened.

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Speaker 1: You were remembering things wrong. I know it happened, you

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Speaker 1: don't know what happened. And she even uses the technique

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Speaker 1: that UM some survivors are are is helpful for some

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Speaker 1: survivors to come back gaslighting, where she recites the names

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Speaker 1: of her old streets to like reinforce her truth, to

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Speaker 1: remind herself, no, this is, this is I know this

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Speaker 1: is it's at the gaslights in gaslights Yeah, exactly. So

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Speaker 1: it's interesting. So like finding something that you can cling

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Speaker 1: to if you've seen, Um, that's such a thing in

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Speaker 1: movies like, um, what's that movie that's kind of terrible

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Speaker 1: and everyone loved it? Um? Could it be where they

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Speaker 1: go into people's dreams? Yeah? Um, is that the movie

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Speaker 1: where they have the thing that you know? This is

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Speaker 1: how I know? Yeah, it's interesting how finding that tangible

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Speaker 1: thing that you can cling to that you know this

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Speaker 1: this demonstrates my ability to perceive reality correctly. That seems

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Speaker 1: to be a recurring thing with gaslighting and how you

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Speaker 1: can combat it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another big example in

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Speaker 1: movies that I ran into a lot was the Truman Show.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the Changeling, which is based on a true story.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen that? One? Bridget sounds familiar? Have I

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Speaker 1: seen that? What's about? Um, it's about Angelina Jolie. I

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Speaker 1: think it's a it's a kind of a period piece.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I probably way off, but in this century period piece. Um,

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Speaker 1: And she loses her child and like weeks passed and

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Speaker 1: the police are like, hey, we found your kid, and

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Speaker 1: she's like, that is not my kid, Like, nope, it

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Speaker 1: really is that your kid. I can't believe you can't

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Speaker 1: remember him. You must be a terrible mom. And she's

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Speaker 1: just like everyone's telling me this is my kid. I

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Speaker 1: know this is not my kid. He doesn't fit in

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Speaker 1: like the same clothes. But the police go through epic

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Speaker 1: links to convince her that that is her kid or

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Speaker 1: that she has lost her mind. She ends up in

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Speaker 1: insane asylument. Why did they do this? I think because

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Speaker 1: they were embarrassed. I know in the true story that

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Speaker 1: the kid died, it was like twenty they found twenty

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Speaker 1: kids in a grave or something. I think they were

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Speaker 1: trying to cover up some kind of embarrassing failure on

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Speaker 1: their part by gaslighting Angela and Julie and getting her

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Speaker 1: locked in insane asylum. Does Um that's a lot like

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Speaker 1: a Flight Plan, which is a terrible movie, but I

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Speaker 1: saw it in the theater. You ever seen flight Plan?

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Speaker 1: Basically flight Plan? It's not a very good movie. But

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Speaker 1: I did see it in the theater. Um Jodie Foster.

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Speaker 1: She arrives to an airport with her child, but the

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Speaker 1: child is scared to go through tes a, so she

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Speaker 1: hides him, and she hides the child, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's a girl under her coat. Security videos don't jump

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Speaker 1: her going in with a kid. The kid is later kidnapped,

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Speaker 1: I think by terrorist or something, and they basically try

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Speaker 1: to convince her. They're like, you didn't have a kid.

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Speaker 1: She's like what, And so, of course, because she's a woman,

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Speaker 1: she thinks I'm crazy, you know, I'm It's funny how

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Speaker 1: the victims of gas lighting. It's not, it's not only women,

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Speaker 1: but it's interesting how, particularly in pop culture, when it

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Speaker 1: is women, women are so quick to beat to think

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Speaker 1: I'm quote unquote crazy, like something's wrong with me, and like,

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Speaker 1: you're right, my perception of reality is warped. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if that's a gendered thing. Yeah, I I would say so,

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Speaker 1: and we are going to touch on that a little

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Speaker 1: bit more later. But I do think women are more

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Speaker 1: likely to be dismissed as crazy or hormonal is at

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Speaker 1: that time of the month for you, like yeah, blaming

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Speaker 1: it on on those types of things, and I think

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Speaker 1: that women largely have internalized that and maybe are more

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Speaker 1: quick to blame those types of things as well, especially

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Speaker 1: like that, UM, I think about nagging all the time,

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Speaker 1: that like you're nagging wife, and I think a lot

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Speaker 1: a lot of women are afraid to have that label

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Speaker 1: and afraid of that label in general. And so even

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Speaker 1: if this is I've mentioned before my thirty page on

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Speaker 1: the dishes, my thirty page dishes, even if you're totally

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Speaker 1: right to ask for help and it comes off as nagging,

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Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, that's just a term that has

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Speaker 1: been very useful for getting out of doing the dishes,

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Speaker 1: among other things. Episode on Anie's opinion, that would be

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Speaker 1: like a ten part mini and Me just mostly dissolving

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Speaker 1: into and another thing. UM. The one more thing I

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Speaker 1: want to touch on in the movie verse of gas

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Speaker 1: lighting is um, a lot of horror movies, like The

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Speaker 1: Shining or Clockwork Orange purposefully gaslight the audience by um

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Speaker 1: making continuity errs so that you're never quite sure, like

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Speaker 1: did I see that? I don't know, Maybe I didn't

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Speaker 1: see that. The Shining is the ultimate example of that

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Speaker 1: because you watched that movie. At least for me, I

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Speaker 1: find myself pausing and going back and thinking I just

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Speaker 1: saw a flash of something very disturbing, didn't I, And

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Speaker 1: then you have to go back and make sure that

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Speaker 1: you did in fact see it. Yeah, it's pretty effective.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for gas flighting me, Stanley Kubrick. Yeah. Cnically,

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Speaker 1: gaslighting is classified as a type of narcissistic abuse, particularly

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Speaker 1: malignant narcissist. In this case, the narcissists uses the target

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Speaker 1: for validation and esteem while simultaneously detesting the targets of victimhood.

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Speaker 1: Gaslighting is gradual, starting out small, but eventually leading to depression, anxiety,

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Speaker 1: and isolation in the target, making him or her even

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Speaker 1: more dependent. And here are some of the hall marks

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Speaker 1: telling outright lies. By doing so, by setting the bar

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Speaker 1: so high with something that's like obviously a false statement,

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Speaker 1: the gas lighter undermines your ability to know if anything

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Speaker 1: else they say is true or not. A lot of

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Speaker 1: the lies they invoke include someone you care about, Like

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Speaker 1: we mentioned um, this person agrees with me, she thinks

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Speaker 1: you're overacting to Sometimes in the survivor community, this is

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Speaker 1: called a flying monkey because you're kind of sicking. You're

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Speaker 1: flying monkeys on on them and sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: building a network of people who you will rely on

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Speaker 1: to undermine the victim's sense of reality and self. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, they call people and the media

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Speaker 1: that call into question the reality they're feeding you liars

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Speaker 1: if it is in opposition to what they're telling you.

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Speaker 1: It also sounds a familiar m denial of something they

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Speaker 1: said are did, even if you produce proof, even in

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Speaker 1: the face of outright proof. And once again this sets

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Speaker 1: you off balance. Um, it makes you question your reality,

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Speaker 1: trivialization of your feelings. Gas lighters often attack things that

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Speaker 1: you care about. Their actions don't match their words. Occasionally

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Speaker 1: they offer you kind words, um, words of encouragement, and

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Speaker 1: it kind of reminds me of the cycle of abuse

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Speaker 1: as well, where it's like, oh, I'll never do it again,

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Speaker 1: I love you and all these things like I failed

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Speaker 1: this one time. But then it's it's a cycle, and

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Speaker 1: they do this to confuse you because then you're like, well,

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Speaker 1: they said this nice thing about me, and maybe they're

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Speaker 1: not all bad. How could they be bad. He's being

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Speaker 1: so nice to me now, how could he be an

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Speaker 1: abusive person when he's making me feel so good in

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Speaker 1: this moment? I must have had him all wrong. I

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Speaker 1: must be sensitive, I must be misunderstanding the situation. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And it further confuses you. And confusion is the best

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Speaker 1: friend of a gas lighter. Gas Lighters often project their

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Speaker 1: own failings or issues. They turn it around on you,

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Speaker 1: so you're the wrong doer. They might act hurt that

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Speaker 1: you've accused them of such a thing. They dismiss you

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Speaker 1: as crazy hormonal. How dare you say that about me?

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Speaker 1: I would never do that. I mean, you must be

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Speaker 1: really out of your mind. You should. I worry about

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Speaker 1: your mental health if that's if that's really what you think, Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: up and to extremes that When a gas lighters question here,

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Speaker 1: she may resort to threats of physical abuse, especially if

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Speaker 1: like they sense that their whole game might be up

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Speaker 1: and the techniques commonly deployed by gas lighters or things

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Speaker 1: like withholding. And this is when the gas lighter refuses

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Speaker 1: to listen to share emotions, feigns a lack of interest

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Speaker 1: or understanding. Costic example of this is I'm not listening

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Speaker 1: to this again tonight. Countering are questioning the target's reality.

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Speaker 1: You're wrong about that? Last time? You have an over

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Speaker 1: active imagination you've never believed in me. I feel like

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Speaker 1: that one is probably really common in relationships with there's infidelity, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: saying you know, oh, you're you're so paranoid, are so jealousy?

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Speaker 1: That was I've had people in my life use that one,

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Speaker 1: you know, obscure cheating again. If you say it over

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Speaker 1: and over and over again and you say you're really jealous,

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Speaker 1: you're really jealous, you really jealous over and over and

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Speaker 1: over again, you know you're getting upset about nothing. You're

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Speaker 1: inventing things to be upset about because you're jealous and paranoid,

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Speaker 1: even if you're not a jealous person, like I'm not

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Speaker 1: a very jealous person, but someone saying it over and

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Speaker 1: over and over again, by the end, I'm apologizing for

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Speaker 1: this person who was like cheating on me because I'm

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Speaker 1: apologizing like, oh, I'm I'm just mean being I'm you

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Speaker 1: know how you know me, I'm just so jealous by

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Speaker 1: the kind of like wait, sepack, I'm not actually jealous

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Speaker 1: and actually you are deceiving me. But it's interesting how

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Speaker 1: repeating those countering claims over and over again can really

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Speaker 1: you can really internalize them. Yeah, I've definitely seen that

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Speaker 1: play out in a friend's relationship where he would call

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Speaker 1: her jealous all the time, and he would even go

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Speaker 1: so far as to be like, well, I saw you

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Speaker 1: hanging out with this one dude, like one time, like

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Speaker 1: maybe you're the one. Yeah, maybe I should be looking

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Speaker 1: into what you're doing. It's it's pretty insidious. There's blocking, diverting,

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Speaker 1: which is flipping the conversation around to question the target. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're hurting me on purpose, or stop nagging me, trivializing,

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Speaker 1: I'm dismissing the thoughts or feelings in the gas of

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Speaker 1: the target of the gaslighting, and denial, I don't have

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Speaker 1: to take this, you're making this up. Stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: As we've kind of touched on, it can take place

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Speaker 1: in all sorts of relationships, in the workplace, within a

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Speaker 1: family with a significant other. A lot of times it's

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Speaker 1: a partner trying to hide a relationship. It can take

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Speaker 1: place in a lot of different settings, and it seems

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Speaker 1: like something that's kind of fairly common. According to the

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Speaker 1: National Domestic Violence Hotline, around eight percent of people that

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Speaker 1: call in have experienced some type of mental health coercion.

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Speaker 1: Some of the symptoms of gaslighting that they list on

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Speaker 1: their site include constants I can guessing yourself, feelings of confusion,

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Speaker 1: asking yourself if you're being too sensitive multiple times a day,

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Speaker 1: constantly apologizing to your gaslighter, constantly excusing a gaslighter's behavior,

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Speaker 1: or withholding information from friends you won't have to make excuses.

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Speaker 1: A feeling like you can't quite articulate that something is wrong,

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Speaker 1: telling lies to avoid getting put down or having the

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Speaker 1: rug pulled from underneath you, having a hard time making decisions,

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Speaker 1: feeling that you used to be a more confident and

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Speaker 1: relaxed person, feeling like you can't do anything right, and

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Speaker 1: feeling like you're constantly letting your partner down. But when

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Speaker 1: I was on this website, I saw at the top

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Speaker 1: I had instructions for a quick exiting of the website,

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Speaker 1: not being able to return by using the back button,

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Speaker 1: so that if someone came up behind you. That makes

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Speaker 1: me that's very real. Yeah, that broke my heart. So

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Speaker 1: gas lighting has a really long history, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about it after a quick break from a

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Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So gas lighting probably honestly has been taking place as

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Speaker 1: long as people have had relationships with each other end

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Speaker 1: of trying to manipulate each other. But one example found

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Speaker 1: of it that I loved was Hans Christian Anderson The

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Speaker 1: Emperor's New Clothes And if you don't remember or only

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Speaker 1: have vague memories of the Disney movie, this fairy tale

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Speaker 1: revolves around an emperor who loved his clothes to the

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Speaker 1: point he spent all of his money on them. And

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Speaker 1: two swindlers came to town one day claiming that they

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Speaker 1: made fabrics more wonderful than anything you've ever seen, and

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Speaker 1: if you couldn't see those fabrics, it meant you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have your job because you were incompetent. And of course

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Speaker 1: the emperor wanted them because by putting him on he

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Speaker 1: not only figure out like who thought he was unfit

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Speaker 1: for duty, but he does would be looking super super fly.

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Speaker 1: So he paid the swindlers a huge amount of cash

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Speaker 1: for some new clothes with the most magnificent fabric, and

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Speaker 1: the swindler set up two big looms and got to

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Speaker 1: weaving with invisible read non existent thread um and the

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Speaker 1: fabric wanted to ask how they were doing it, he

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Speaker 1: didn't because he didn't want to appear stupid as if

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Speaker 1: he thought himself incompetent because he couldn't see the fabric,

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Speaker 1: and the emperor caused the trustee, honest town minister to

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Speaker 1: describe what he sees. But the minister is afraid of

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Speaker 1: the same thing. He doesn't want to be called stupid

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Speaker 1: and una for a job, so he's like, oh wow,

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Speaker 1: how beautiful. Look at this fabric, and the emperors like,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, oh no, I can't see anything. So he

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Speaker 1: calls in more officials, and the trusted officials say the

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Speaker 1: same thing because they also don't want to appear stupid.

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Speaker 1: So the emperor pretends he can see them too, and

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Speaker 1: the swindlers up the price. They say, we gotta We're

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Speaker 1: gonna need more fabric, and the emperor's advisors are like, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is the most beautiful thing. You've got to wear

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Speaker 1: it in your procession that's coming up. And then for

425
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: like okay um, the swindlers finished the close. They held

426
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: them out, describing them as light as the spider's web,

427
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: as if you're wearing nothing. I'm sure they were very like,

428
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 1: very delicate. The infer undressed, and they helped him put

429
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 1: them on. They went through like a little miming thing.

430
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,880
Speaker 1: Everyone complimented him on them fools, and then he did

431
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: the procession completely naked, and everyone except the kids. The

432
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: kids were like, he's he's naked, but all the adults

433
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: were like, no, we're good at our job. We can

434
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 1: see those. So that's just a um I thought, a

435
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: funny kind of that's the gas lighting on a not

436
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: national but local scale. Yeah, kind of the same about

437
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: all these people buying in if we fast forward past

438
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,719
Speaker 1: the play in films that we mentioned in the beginning,

439
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: um in psychologist named Edward vine Schell wrote an article

440
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: called Some Clinical Consequences of Introjection. Gaslighting and interjection was

441
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 1: the term he used to explain the transfer of psychic conflicts.

442
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 1: One person externalized and projects, and the other person incorporates

443
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: and dissimilates. Books and self help blogs about how to

444
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: shut gas flighting down proliferated soon after with strategies like

445
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: narrative repair that relies on a counter story, and the

446
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 1: most research and articles have been about gaslighting and relationships. Recently,

447
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 1: it's gotten more sort of nationwide attention, society wide attention.

448
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: I guess. Take this quote from shay m a Fete

449
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: over everyday feminism. She writes, I believe that gaslighting is

450
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: happening culturally and inter personally on an unprecedented scale. And

451
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: this is the result of a societal framework where we

452
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: pretend everyone is equal while trying simultaneously to preserve inequality.

453
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 1: And that is something I definitely definitely feel in my experience.

454
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: This is folks who say things like, oh, we're all

455
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: equal now, the races are all equal, and so while

456
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: me is a woman of color and experiencing an equality,

457
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: the nation is sort of refusing to agree that this

458
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: is happening. And so it is interesting. And part of

459
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 1: it is that you internalize it and you think, oh,

460
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: I'm over sensitive, I'm making you know, it's so easy

461
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: to shut this down, right, like someone saying, oh, you

462
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: make everything about race, which people have wrote into this

463
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: very podcast, and I thought about me, and you know,

464
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: it's really quite something to have people insist that we

465
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: are living in a equal nation, equal for along spectrums

466
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: of gender, race, sexuality, class. It's really quite rich to

467
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: have those people say, oh, you make everything about race,

468
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 1: when we live in a country where everything is about race, right,

469
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: It's quite interesting the people use that tactic, and it

470
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 1: is it does feel a bit like gaslighting. Oh, absolutely, Yeah,

471
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: it's exactly what you said. You make everything about races.

472
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: It's just a way of It's similar to the boyfriend

473
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: telling you like you're just jealous. Like it's a way

474
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: to just say, nope, we're all equal here. You're the

475
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: ones you're still fighting about, trying to stir something up.

476
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: Sha m a fete on Everyday Feminism, she wrote that

477
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: a lot about that, and she wrote that minorities that

478
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,959
Speaker 1: face stereotypes about mental capacity are particularly prone to gaslighting. Yeah,

479
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: and the more widespread the term has become, the more

480
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: deluded the meaning, and the more often it's used to gaslight.

481
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: Almost it muddies the water around rational disagreement. And we're

482
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: talking more on a societal and cultural level now, although

483
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: this can happen in relationships. And we'll get into this

484
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: after one last break for a word from our sponsor,

485
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank your sponsor. And this brings us

486
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: too far. I know Bridget has been itch this is

487
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: I've and he's had to give me that not yet,

488
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 1: not yet, look, because I'm raring to go on this,

489
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: but all the song's gonna jump right into it for it.

490
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: Donald Trump a gas lighter in chief. I would agree

491
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: with you. Bridget Um. I remember because I started out

492
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: just reading basically how the podcast started as I was

493
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: researching that. That was the first thing I was talking

494
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 1: about was like signs of a gas lighter. And I

495
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: was like, huh huh oh, because it all sounded very familiar.

496
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: If you're like me, you've probably seen headlines in the

497
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: past year, so that pretty much say the same thing,

498
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: like Donald Trump is gaslighting America from teen Vogue. The

499
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: Trump campaigns were on reality made me question what I

500
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: saw from the Washington Post. I'm a Republican, why is

501
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: my party gaslighting America? From Politico. So we're not the

502
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: only ones that made this connection. We're not the only ones.

503
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: And some of you might be thinking, wait a minute,

504
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: Donald Trump not gaslighting the country. I've actually seen headlines

505
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 1: that question that that that pushed back on this narrative

506
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: that he that we were being gas lighted on a

507
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: national scale by our current president. As we talked about

508
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: in this episode, a hallmark of gas lighting is trying

509
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: to make you believe things that are not true, even

510
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: when presented with proof. Just today, Donald Trump was presented

511
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: with a video of him saying something he did not say.

512
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: And still clings to it, right, Like Donald Trump will

513
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: say things that are verifiably untrue, things where it's like, oh,

514
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: you're on video, or oh here is proof, or oh

515
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: we have a photo of you doing this, and he'll say, no,

516
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: I didn't do it, and and it sort of becomes

517
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: its own kind of reality in a kind of way.

518
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: This is this This is a small example, but a

519
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: Kim lying about the crowdside of inauguration Kelly and Conway said,

520
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: he's presenting alternative effects. Numbers are numbers. If you say

521
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: a number and the different numbers higher or lower, I mean,

522
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: that's not there's not an alternative to that. That's just

523
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: how these things work. Another example is that the Trump

524
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: administration contends that sixty five people died in Hurricane Maria

525
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: and Puerto Rico, and at Harvard University came out with

526
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: a study just this week that said, actually, that number

527
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: is more like four thousand or over four thousand, and

528
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: his administration basically is refusing to to acknowledge these plain facts. Yes,

529
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: and when they're presented with the obvious proof, it becomes

530
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: fake media fake news, which we touched on the beginning

531
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: that that is one of the hallmarks of dismissing the

532
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: thing that counters your narrative. Yeah, and making you feel

533
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: unsettled and off kilter because you are seeing this blatant

534
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: proof and to be tolled Nope, that's wrong. And to

535
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: make things about race again, as I always do, because

536
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: you know that's nothing. Um, think about the way that

537
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: Trump talks about people of color in this country. He'll

538
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: go on TV and say things that are blatantly racist,

539
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: and then I'll say, oh, quote unquote, the blacks are

540
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: doing better they than they have. So not only is

541
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: that like not you break down the numbers, that's actually

542
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: not a true thing in and of itself. But he

543
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,719
Speaker 1: will get on TV and say people of color are

544
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: doing great under my administration while simultaneously being really racist.

545
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: He does the same thing with women. He'll get he'll

546
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: get on TV and say women are making more money

547
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: than they've ever made under my administration, while at the

548
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: same time bragging about grabbing women by their body parts. Right,

549
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: And so it is a way of saying of sort

550
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: of denying a kind of victimhood in a way where

551
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: we all can see that you are doing things that

552
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: are not okay, but you are refusing to let that

553
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: reality linger and in a kind of using it against us. Yeah. Absolutely,

554
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: And a lot of the things we've been talking about

555
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,479
Speaker 1: do match up with the behavior Trump in his cabinet.

556
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: The dimissile of reality, the constant refrain of fake news,

557
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: the contradictions under money over the press, the outright lies.

558
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: This all adds up to the so called post truth

559
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: era where a lot of us feel yeah, very unbalanced

560
00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: and very like daily grind. Yeah. I I think I've

561
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit on the show, but

562
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: my post election vibe was very much that way that

563
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: I felt in a kind of way that I couldn't

564
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: I was having trouble. This sounds like an exaggeration, but

565
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: I'm not exaggerating. I felt like I was having trouble

566
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: grasping reality and understanding what reality was because I feel

567
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: like I probably kind of like never recovered. I feel

568
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: like I spend a lot of time seeing things and

569
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: thinking like what, you know, it's just it's And I

570
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: think that's also a homework. They say that's a homework

571
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: of of you know, bad rulers politically, that they overwhelm

572
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: their citizen read with so many things. You're like, how

573
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: could that be Oh that's all. How could that be?

574
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: How could that be? Where by the end of it,

575
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: you don't know, like up is down, black and white,

576
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: you don't know what's what your best bet, According to

577
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: some articles we found, to kind of combat this constant

578
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: delusion of what is reality UM is to fact check

579
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: everything everything. Educate yourself on what outlets are reputable. UM

580
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: and communications fessor Melissa zim Dar's has compiled tips for

581
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: recognizing fake ar mis leading news sites, as well as

582
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: a thirty page spreadsheet of these sites. It's really helpful.

583
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: I had a lot to say about this as somebody

584
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: who has worked in journalism and media a lot. The

585
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: way we talk about fake news, I mean, this could

586
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: be its own episode. But so fake news if you

587
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: are really familiar with media, you know when someone says

588
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: fake news, like you know what they mean, it's a

589
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: very specific thing. But because we live in and Donald

590
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: Trump as our president, fake news is sort of almost

591
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: lost its meaning. So when a reputable news source gets

592
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: a report wrong and they retract it, which you know,

593
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: it's it's a drag and it happens, it's not fake

594
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: news that happens. And you know when so a good examples,

595
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: when ABC released this report on Michael Flynt that they

596
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: ended up having to retract. They retracted it, they apologized,

597
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: they said, here's what we got wrong. The reporter who

598
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: who presented that report was suspended. All the things that

599
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: were supposed to happen happened. You know, journalism, you should

600
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: be able to trust your media and your and your

601
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: journalists just like any other profession there they will make

602
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: errors and make mistakes, and there's a protocol for that.

603
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: That is not fake news. And so the fact that

604
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: that has been sort of conflated with stories that are

605
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: flat out bogus, you know, stories saying that Hillary Clinton

606
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: is running a pedophile ring from the basement of my

607
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: neighborhood DC pizza shop, and we have proof that is

608
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,479
Speaker 1: a headline. There is no there's nothing about that that's accurate.

609
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: So that is fake news. But when CNN gets a

610
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: report wrong, admits it retracts, it takes the appropriate the

611
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: steps that have been appropriate forever to do that, that's

612
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: not fake news. And I feel like that's another way

613
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump has been able to use this this

614
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: kind of gas lighting to confuse people that people think

615
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: that a story saying that Hillary Clinton is actually a

616
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: Draco reptilian. You know, she's got scales under her clothes.

617
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: Is on par with ABC getting a story wrong. Yeah. Yeah,

618
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: It's really disheartening because I guess this is ultimately a

619
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: good thing. But now if I'm on a site where

620
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: I don't immediately recognize the name and don't immediately like

621
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: kind of know that their trustworthy, UM, I have a

622
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,439
Speaker 1: moment of like, I better check out what this is

623
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: because it could be totally fake. That's an interesting thing too,

624
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: because just people are so willing to believe things that

625
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: fall in line with what they want to believe. Yes,

626
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: some people, I mean, I'm going to try to keep

627
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: it under under control, but I've got on some rants

628
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: about this. Particularly Facebook I think is as you know,

629
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: a culprit and it's trying to rein it in, but

630
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: I would argue as doing it badly. Do you know

631
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: those things on Facebook that was like look back on

632
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: your you know on this day. I was certainly a

633
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 1: culprit for that. Not that long ago. I was sharing

634
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: things that were bogus because they aligned with my world

635
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: view at the time. And I don't think that we

636
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: realized that bubbles that we were creating online and we

637
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: did that because it felt it feels so good when

638
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: you read something you're like, yes, finally share, and then

639
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: you share and all your friends shared, and it really

640
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: shows how susceptible we all are too information and content

641
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 1: that's not actually real. I actually don't think it's our fault.

642
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: There is this thing I want to stay on CNN

643
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: where this woman like a journalist came to her house

644
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: and they said, hey, we have proof that this Facebook

645
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: group that you've been a part of is actually run

646
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: by Russian boats, and they were like, here's the proof,

647
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: and she she refused to believe it, and a lot

648
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: of people were like, that woman is so stupid, you know,

649
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. We don't really live in a country

650
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: that has a media that is helps inform a citizen rate.

651
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: Like we've kind of moved a little bit past that,

652
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: And part of me thought, this woman, I mean, it's

653
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: almost would have not her fault in a kind of way,

654
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: that she's so easily duped and believes it so much

655
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: when we just don't live in a country that make

656
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 1: that gives people the resources and makes those resources readily

657
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: available for people to have a more critical Lens I completely.

658
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 1: I'm on the same page with you there, Um media literacy.

659
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: We wanted to do a whole like podcast and that

660
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: was always going to be with media literacy. Maybe we

661
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: should revive the idea getting to teach that in college.

662
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, I like when I was teaching

663
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: Howard are one oh one uh unit was on media literacy.

664
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: Actually was a really fun course. Man. Maybe we should

665
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 1: have like a little recurring check in check in. So

666
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: all of this has been triggering for survivors of gaslighting

667
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: and relationships that depended on gaslighting. All of this like

668
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: kind of Trump Cabinet and just discussion of whether or

669
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: not it is gas lighting. And then for people that

670
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: it feels very much like gas lighting who have lived

671
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: through it. It's been a difficult period and we're at

672
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: the Guardian. Aeril lev Um offered the these tips as

673
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: someone who survived gas lighting as a child, Stay defiant,

674
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: Recognize that there will never be accountability. The gas lighter

675
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: will never take responsibility for their actions or come around

676
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 1: to your point of view. I want to talk about

677
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: that one briefly. Um, I have a long term relationship

678
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: with a gas lighter in my life and it's not

679
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: that kind of relationship that I could sort of cut off.

680
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: And that one, I think is super super hard because

681
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: it's so easy to sort of get caught in this

682
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: idea of I'm going to prove them wrong and you know,

683
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: compile evidence, and you know the lengths I went to

684
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: try to get this person to admit that they were

685
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: gas not not even admit they were gaslighting me, but

686
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: to admit that they were not telling the truth, not

687
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: saying something correct. It almost was not worth my own

688
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: sense of self. It almost was exhausting emotionally for me.

689
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: And so having to recognize I will never the accountability

690
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: I want. I'll never get it. I could spend my

691
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: whole life waiting, and it's or someone will never be

692
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: will never say I lied about this because I wanted

693
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: to control you and I'm sorry. I'll never get that.

694
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: And having to admit that and own that is really

695
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: really hard. It's like a constant struggle. But I think

696
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: that as people who are victims of this kind of

697
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: of narcissistic abuse, it's so easy to kind of be

698
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 1: a lawyer and like, you know, I used to think, like, oh,

699
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna record them with my phone and

700
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: there my pocket, and so when they say they didn't

701
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: say X, I'll play it for them and then I'll

702
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: hold it under their nose. We'll have to admit it.

703
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: And I used to have these wild fantasies of of

704
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: finally getting my my you know, of getting them to

705
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: admit this, and then I had to say, I'll never

706
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: get it, and I have to stay defiant and I

707
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 1: have to just let it go. And that's that's another

708
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: another way to deal with it. You gotta let go

709
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: of the wish that you have for things to be different,

710
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: because they probably won't be different. Like my the person

711
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 1: in my life who was a gas lighter. That is

712
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: how this person is. And I have kind of let

713
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 1: go of any hope that our relationship will be different

714
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: because this is how it is. And I have to

715
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: stay defiant and and be confident about my own approach

716
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: and my own understanding situations, and yes, set those boundaries,

717
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: like you were saying earlier, say I am behaving in

718
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: an appropriate way. What I'm asking for is completely reasonable.

719
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: The way that I'm perceiving the situation is reasonable, and

720
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: not get sucked into this to this toxic vibe where

721
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: this other person sets the reality, and so you could

722
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: be being totally normal, and they're saying that you're being

723
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: unreasonable or jealous or petty or this or that are ungrateful,

724
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: like any of the fill in whatever your gaslight or

725
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: is saying here. Yeah, I'm a firm believer that people

726
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: will justify their actions and make them correct. They will

727
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: do what they have to do, like the mental acrobatics

728
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 1: they need to do to justify what they're doing and

729
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: make it okay. So people are not going to take

730
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: accountability for things if it means admitting to themselves that

731
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: what they're doing is wrong and they'll have to stop.

732
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: I think that is unfortunate, but very rare that people

733
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: would actually turn around and yeah, you waste a lot

734
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 1: of energy trying to change someone. And I have a

735
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: friend who to your point about like producing proof that

736
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: she usedid this Like unshakable faith. I think the thing

737
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 1: that we all kind of want to have unshakeable faith

738
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: in the certain things are like this is real, the

739
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: numbers are there's no alternative facts. This is it. And

740
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: to have that, to present that and have it dismissed

741
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: is kind of frightening, and it kind of shakes your well,

742
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: if I can't, if that's not going to change things,

743
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,439
Speaker 1: if that's going to be just shoved aside as, if

744
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: it's not facts. It's a difficult concept and a frightening

745
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 1: concept to graffle with. And she said it really shook

746
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: her that she had this faith in that and then

747
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: it didn't matter. Yeah, so it's tough, Like none of

748
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: these things are easy. Another thing that Aerial recommended was

749
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: develop a healthy detachment distinguished between the world of the

750
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: gas lighter in the real world. And for me that's

751
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: that's been helpful because I too have a guest later

752
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: in my life. Eventually, I just had to be like,

753
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: he sees a different world than me, and I know

754
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: that what I'm seeing I can verify with other people,

755
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: that's the thing, but he's not seeing that. Yeah, that's

756
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: that's been helpful doing with my guest lighter as well.

757
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: Where in my situation there are so many flying monkeys,

758
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: so to speak, where it's just easier for them to

759
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 1: give in and say, yeah, this this warped version of reality.

760
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: That's not true. Let's just say it's true, right, Like

761
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: this person could be saying I could be wearing a

762
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 1: blue shirt and say it's red, and everybody just out

763
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: of sheer exhaustion and say, yeah, I guess it's red.

764
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: And having a little bit of a detachment from that

765
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: for me has been really helpful and saying when I

766
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: know that this is just how the this this is

767
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: the world they live in, and for whatever reason, they've

768
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: convinced themselves that this is reality. But I know reality,

769
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: and I know what's reasonable, and I'm not going to

770
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: play the game of even getting caught up into this.

771
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: And it is hard, it's very hard. It's so tempting

772
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: to get sucked into it and you know, get mired.

773
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: But that attachment that love speaks to, I think is

774
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: so critical. Yeah, and to your point, the exhaustion that

775
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: is a that's a hallmark of gaslighting. And said, eventually

776
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: you just get worn down and you're like, okay. And

777
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: it's often compared to like the frog and the pot

778
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: of water as it gets hotter and hotter, because it's gradual,

779
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: gradually wearing you down. And I did want to include

780
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 1: this example from the Washington Post story we mentioned earlier.

781
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: It was about um by a journalist who witnessed Trump's

782
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 1: campaign manager at the time, Korey Lewandowski grabbing and yanking

783
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: another reporter, Michelle Fields. When the Trump team they denied

784
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: it outright that it ever happened, and the reporter who

785
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: saw it ben terrorist. He started to doubt what he

786
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: saw because there everyone else was asking Him'm like, are

787
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: you sure you saw that? He even said I remember

788
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: that reporter even said they had never met. Yeah, and

789
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: they were when we got video. Yes. Well, then the

790
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: video came out and the Trump team doubled down. They

791
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: were like, oh, that's nothing, You're all over react seeing

792
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: the reporter kind of writes about how he started researching

793
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: false witness accounts and like, maybe what if I didn't

794
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: am I seeing what I am, I remembering what I

795
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: think I'm remembering correctly, what if I'm not? And how

796
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: it kind of it frightened him a little bit because

797
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: it gave him a taste of just having your whole

798
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: reality put into a question. Um. And that's kind of

799
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 1: what Trump has been doing when he's dealing with accusations

800
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: of sexual assault too. He's like outride glide that said

801
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 1: he's never met them, when proof exists that he had.

802
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: We got you on camera, mother. It takes some real

803
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: goal to be like I've never met that person. It's like, oh,

804
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,959
Speaker 1: well we did meet and okay, Like it's like that,

805
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: that's saying they call a narcissists prayer. That didn't happen,

806
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: and if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if

807
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 1: it was, it's not a big deal. And if it is,

808
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: it's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't

809
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,439
Speaker 1: mean it. And if I did, you deserved it. Wow. Yeah,

810
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 1: pretty much. That's that's it. So when we talk about

811
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: recovery from gaslighting, being able to pick up on gaslighting

812
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 1: behaviors and recognizing them for what they are is a

813
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: huge step. Having a support system is really vital too,

814
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 1: to help you regain your footing in reality. Um Codependence

815
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 1: anonymous might be helpful. It's c o d A dot org.

816
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: And it's important to not to blame yourself for not

817
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 1: having trusted yourself. Gaslighting is really effective and it is gradual.

818
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: You shouldn't blame yourself for that. Another tip is redirecting

819
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: anchoring statements when you catch yourself romanticizing your abuser or

820
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: employing repetition of the truth in your favor. This could

821
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: be informed of something like documenting the truth, seeking self validation,

822
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: and really is thinking about things like doing reality testing

823
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: with people that you trust, sort of talking to someone

824
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,919
Speaker 1: who you know can confirm that you are perceiving things

825
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: accurately and sort of relying on them to help you

826
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: help you sort through this. Yeah, and I read a

827
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: lot of examples of um, like keeping a journal and

828
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: seeing so and so said I'm a terrible person and

829
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 1: that I'm I'm good at these things and he's saying

830
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: I'm terrible for this reason when I know that I

831
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: didn't do this, Like just keeping reaffirming and writing that down,

832
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: having something that you can look to and remember, like

833
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: like proof if this is something that you have dealt

834
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: with or you know someone that has dealt with. The

835
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: phone number for the National Domestic Violence Hotline is one

836
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: eight hundred seven seven two three three. That's seven nine

837
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: nine seven two three. I can chat with someone online

838
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: at the hotline dot org. Hopefully this is at least

839
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 1: given people tools to recognize this behavior, because I do

840
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: think that is really important. I hope so too. And

841
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 1: if you're dealing with gas lighting out there, we want

842
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: to hear what tips have you used to cope with it?

843
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: How's it ben for you? I'm sure it's something that

844
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: can feel very isolating, and you know you don't have

845
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: to deal with it alone, and you shouldn't have to,

846
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: so definitely reach out to folks, and we want to

847
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: hear from you as well. Absolutely, and that brings us

848
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: to Listener Male. Our first letters from Brittany. Brittany wrote

849
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: about her journey to feminism. I'm not really sure where

850
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: it began, but like one of you mentioned, Bridget, I

851
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: think I've always been into those feminist girl power shows.

852
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: I loved Buffy, Charms, Xena, et cetera. One of my

853
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: favorite was Broona Kamar. Such an independent female lead that

854
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: also takes care of business and fights to help everyone

855
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: around her no matter who it is. The show is

856
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: the reason that I'm such a huge fan of Kristen Bell,

857
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: because Kristen Bell is great and Ronne Camars is really good.

858
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: It is. I'm pretty sure I love all of those

859
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: shows you mentioned when I when I was in my

860
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: formative years as well and still now. One of the

861
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: other reasons she goes on is music related. I was

862
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: extremely obsessed with Destiny's Child since I was in middle school.

863
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 1: I'm twenty six years old. Pop R and B and

864
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: rock music helped me get through my rough teenage years.

865
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: My parents divorced when I was in the second grade. Later,

866
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: my mom was a US and my dad's been a

867
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: lot of time in jail prison, so I didn't get

868
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: a lot of guidance or attention in middle school or

869
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,280
Speaker 1: high school. Luckily I turned out pretty okay anyway. Destiny's

870
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 1: Child was a clear session of mine, and I always

871
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: had a lot of inner thoughts of being an independent

872
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: young woman and doing what I wanted to do, regardless

873
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: of what others or society thought of it. Oh the

874
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: ladies independent, throw your hands up at me. Oh, I

875
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: love it. I could we could do an episode of

876
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: Destiny's Child. My favorite thing about Destiny's Child is how

877
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: Tina Knowles would always design those tacky but actually amazing costumes.

878
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: So will be one of them, would have the pants

879
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: version one of them, and have the shorts version one

880
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: of them, and had the dress version, you know the best.

881
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: I had a picture of them on my finder for

882
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: two years. It was great. Another album in particular that

883
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: sticks in my mind is Christina aguilarra Is Stripped particularly

884
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: Can't Hold Us Down as a pretty epic choice to

885
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: me when it came out this again. Reinforce this girl

886
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: power vibe that I love. Another obvious choice from this

887
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: album is also beautiful. Um sang that at talent show.

888
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: Nailed it, Bridget. Next time we do karaoke, I'm going

889
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: to try to push you to do that. One's really good. Also,

890
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: the song that she did on the Mulan soundtracks really good.

891
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: She had it's it's a classic. She's so good reflections.

892
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: Oh yes, people don't think of her, but she made

893
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 1: a lot of good songs for young people who were

894
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: going through and like wanted to feel adult feelings. You know.

895
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: Gene and a bottle Baby got to rub me the

896
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: right way. Last, but not least Fighter was also very

897
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: important because it taught me that no matter what I

898
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 1: was going through, I'd make it through okay because I

899
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: was strong and could get through anything I set my

900
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: mind too. So thank you so much for writing. Oh yeah,

901
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 1: we connected to a lot of that, Brittany, obviously, obviously, Brittany,

902
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: let's come talk music. Yeah, it'll be like a Destiny's

903
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: Child slash outbursts of singing podcast would we wouldn't want

904
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: to listen to that? Who wouldn't Anyone who's heard me

905
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: at karaoke is like, um me, yes, I have a

906
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: terrible voice. Thank you for that letter. I have one

907
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: from Aaron. Aaron wrote, just heard the episode on the

908
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,760
Speaker 1: NFL Cheerleader's Great Job, and you mentioned that you hadn't

909
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: heard women say quote I have a son in the

910
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 1: same way a man might say I wouldn't exploit women

911
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: I have daughters. I thought I would share my experience

912
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: with hearing that phrase. Surprise, women still lose. At my

913
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: conservative Christian college, Spring harolded a group of form posts

914
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: from men to the general effect of ladies, please cover

915
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: up your sun dresses are causing us men to have

916
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: impure thoughts. Several arguments back and forth, and usually one

917
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: that says, we're your brothers in Christ and you're making

918
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: a stumble. That's pretty bad. But the ones I found

919
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,439
Speaker 1: particularly poisonous, or the ones from other women that said

920
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: things like I have brothers and future sons and I

921
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: don't want them to be in moral danger. This is

922
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: striking because it's basically tells me that the only way

923
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: a woman could have an opinion on the subject is

924
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: by taking on the male gaze and speaking from that perspective.

925
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: Moral of the story sun dresses are a powerful weapon,

926
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: and the Pentagon to check into deploying them if we're

927
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: interested in bringing down the male gender sun dresses. I've

928
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: long suspected. Oh, because we're at a sun dress in

929
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 1: the studio, I'm already clipped for battle. That's right, always

930
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 1: got a sun dress ready to go. So thank you

931
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,240
Speaker 1: to Aaron and Brittany for writing. You two can write

932
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 1: to us and we would love to hear from you.

933
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,959
Speaker 1: Our email is a mom stuff that has to folks

934
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 1: it dot com and you can find us on the

935
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 1: social means on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You

936
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 1: and on Twitter at mom stuff. Yes, and thanks for listening,

937
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: and thanks as always to our producers, Dylan Fagan and

938
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: Catheine Killian