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Spread out across four homes, all within 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:21.080 a few miles of each other, Eight members of a 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:25.080 local family, the Rodents, were found murdered. They were shot 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.640 execution style in their beds, the victims of a methodical 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:33.040 killing spree. It was an unprecedented and confounding crime, one 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:38.560 that would launched the largest homicide investigation in Ohio's history. Restoration, anger, sadness, 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.560 emotions are still raw in Pike County. Most of the 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.320 people in this town say, whoever shot and killed eight 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:46.919 members of the Rodent family need to be found soon. 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:52.560 I hope that in this area apprehend eating everyone. These 0:02:52.600 --> 0:03:02.240 aren't peoples, These are monstering. Episode two, Wagner's in Custody. 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.120 I'm Courtney Armstrong, a TV producer at Katie Studios. With 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:12.519 Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane, we produced television series and documentaries. 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:17.120 Here's Stephanie for me. This case was incredibly disturbing and 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.600 personally really hard to stop thinking about eight people from 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:24.040 the exact same family, all killed in one night, but 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:30.800 at four different locations. That's extremely strategic. The three of 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.320 us have been following this case very closely for years. 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.520 Here's producer Jeff Shane talking to Jodi Barr, an investigative 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.160 journalists who have reported for TV station Fox nineteen and Cincinnati. 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.600 You're not, as a journalist, easily shocked, but like this 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.040 was shocking, probably right, Yeah, it was shocking. I would 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.880 say it was more confusion because on the typical murder, 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.280 or you know, a breaking news story, you can roll 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:56.680 the advance in your mind. But this is this isn't 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:00.160 the typical murder, you know, where there's one or two 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:02.119 victims of a single house and you know the bad 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.240 guy took off. You know, this was something way outside 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.440 the norm. You're just thinking, what is going on here? 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.120 This none of this makes sense, But you knew it 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.080 had to be something big because you've got eight members 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:18.880 of one family targeted, murdered in their sleep, in their homes, 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:22.880 and the killers seemingly vanished. We didn't know the pieces, 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.240 we didn't know how to put it together. There was 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:29.000 no information coming out about these murders, about motives, even 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:31.840 the family members who were in direct communication with law 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.800 enforcement even they weren't being told anything. I mean, call 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:37.960 it good investigative work, and you know, you hold your 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.000 cards plus to the chest as an investigator. Maybe that's 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.719 what it was, but you know, from the outside looking in, 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:46.560 it was almost like the law enforcement didn't have a 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:50.400 clue at that point in time. Overwhelming amount of tamps 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:53.440 have been pouring into police, but no arrestive and me 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.400 with or any general. Mike DeWine is saying that over 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:00.320 two hundred investigators and police officers have contributed and so 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:05.200 forward to this ongoing investigation, but the killer has disappeared. 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.359 As the investigation dragged on, rumors ran rampant in the 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:15.440 close knit community, and journalists like Jodie Barr started digging deeper. 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.680 This did seem to be a very tactical, a very 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.240 clean sort of you know, when you think of an 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:23.800 assassin doing a hit like you see in the movies. 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.520 You started to wonder if there wasn't something to that 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:31.400 because of just how seemingly clean these killings were. I mean, 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.000 how does one person or a group of people hit 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:40.120 four separate homes, kill eight different people, seemingly lead absolutely 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.800 no trace of any evidence. What does this mean, what 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:46.920 is going on here? But after I started having conversations 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.560 with the Rodent family and you started talking to some 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:53.000 people who were very close to the victims in this case, 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.719 at least very close acquaintances, you started to realize that, 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.440 you know, there were some people that even I had 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.840 conversations with in Pike County who I knew they knew 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:05.880 more than what they were telling me. I knew they 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.400 knew more about what happened that morning, and they knew 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:13.800 more about the circumstances surrounding the Rodents that could have 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.680 led to these murders. But they would not tell it. 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:18.720 And I don't know if it was because they were 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:24.160 afraid or they didn't want to believe what they believed happened. 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.320 But all we kept hearing from the Rodent family, from 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.720 the people around there, and they were phrasing this way 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.880 is that it was locals. What did that mean? We 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:41.320 didn't know. By the summer of twenty eighteen, the investigation 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.560 had entered its second year, and Piked in residence, like Barbara, 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:50.600 were becoming increasingly scared. It's an extremely sinister thing that occurred. 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:55.560 It's like a movie. When I was young, people got 0:06:55.600 --> 0:07:00.640 along and you know it was we left our doors unlocked, 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:05.839 you know it was. It was that trusting and relaxed 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.720 in Pike County, so we couldn't believe something like that 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:16.520 what happened here, and it was. It was especially terrifying 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:23.160 because no one knew who did it or why. And 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:30.320 you don't know if your family's next. It's just grizzling 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.520 scene in a briskling situation. If you are fearful, arm yourself. 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:37.440 If you feel that you need to protect yourself or family, 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:43.960 do so. On November thirteenth, twenty eighteen, everything with it 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:49.040 to change. Here's Governor of Ohio, Might Dwine, then Attorney General, Well, 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.800 good afternoon. We promised that the day would come when 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:56.200 the rest would be made in the Pike County Master's 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.600 Today is that day. In a series of arrest that 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:04.160 sent shock waves through the insulated community, six members of 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.760 a local family, the Wagners, were taken into custody. Up, 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:15.760 keep your hands up, go up. Forty seven year old 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.480 Billy Wagner is the patriarch of the Wagner family and 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:21.520 was arrested near Lexington, Kentucky, and a horse trailer that 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:28.960 was pulled over. I'm waga I'm Wagaba. Angela Wagner is 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.160 Billy's wife and matriarch of the Wagner family. The forty 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.120 eight year old was arrested at their home near piked In, Ohio. 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:40.720 Go Ahead, Angelo Wagner in the car one Cope thirteen 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.880 thirty one. Angela and Billy's two sons, George Wagner and 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:49.760 Jake Wagner, were arrested together during a traffic stop. George 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.679 was twenty seven and Jake was twenty six. Seventy six 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:57.280 year old Fredrika Wagner, Billy Wagner's mother, was arrested at 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:01.679 the family's horse farm. The Flying w Angela Wagner's mother, 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.640 sixty five year old Rita Joe Nukam, was arrested at 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:10.960 her home, while six members of the Wagner family were 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.679 arrested in connection with the crime. Billy, Angela, George, and 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.920 Jake Wagner were charged with eight counts of aggravated murder. 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.360 It feels about the arrests of four people in the 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.439 murders of eight members of the road In family back 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:27.240 in April twenty sixteen. Mike Allen, a criminal defense attorney 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.640 and legal commentator for Fox nineteen and Cincinnati was covering 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.560 the story when the news broke. All the arrests happened 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.319 within minutes of each other, and that tells me that 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:41.880 the BCI, the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Identification, who was 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.480 in charge of this investigation, they know what they're doing 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.560 and they wanted to make sure that they affected these 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:53.120 arrests without any kind of problems or tipping anybody off, 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:56.480 So they had that thing down pretty tight. You've got 0:09:56.559 --> 0:10:00.839 four people charged in the murders, and the well, it's 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:04.199 actuated murder, and that's capital murder in the state of 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:09.600 Ohio that does have the death penalty as a possible 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.360 penalty in a case like this, so it is death 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:16.840 penalty case. How rare is it to have multiple capital 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:20.120 murder cases going? I haven't seen multiple four people up 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.079 for capital murder in Ohio before, you know what, And 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.599 I've been in the system for over fifty years, and 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:30.800 I mean the most I've seen were two co defendants 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.000 being tried for capital murder from the same set of facts, 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:38.920 but never four. So that is extremely rare that you 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:45.079 got four people for defendants facing the death penalty. The 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.760 charges for the two other family members were less severe. 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:52.760 Grandmother Frederica Wagner, Billy Wagner's mother was charged with obstruction 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:58.880 of justice and perjury. Angela Wagner's mother, Rita Newcomb, was 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:03.719 charged with forgery, perjury, and obstruction of justice. But to 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.000 Mike Allen, one charge brought against the alleged trigger pullers 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:11.319 makes one thing clear. They're also charged with conspiracy engaging 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.840 in a pattern of corrupt activity, which means that they 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.280 all work together on this. I think it's obvious, at 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.520 least to the prosecutors and the investigators that this thing 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:26.320 there was nobody freelancing. They were possibly all operating together 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:31.640 tampering with evidence. That kind of speaks for itself. I mean, 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:34.480 you know, once they knew that they were the focus 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:38.760 of the investigation, perhaps they did something with the evidence. 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:45.520 We're going to stick a quick break here. We'll be 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:50.400 back in a moment. 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These creatures 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:10.280 call home by fighting to end plastic pollution and climate change. 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.360 Showing our community of ocean lovers and support our mission 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:17.240 to inspire conservation of the ocean at Monterey Bay Aquarium 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:26.320 dot org, slash share your Voice. We needed to know 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.480 more about the rodents and the accused, the Wagners. We 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:31.640 also wanted to be and piped in to learn about 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.440 the town. So Stephanie, Jeff and I flew to Ohio. 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.960 There was this extremely eerie vibe to the town. There 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.720 definitely was a sense that something very big was happening 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:52.240 real time. It almost felt it felt a little dangerous. 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.360 I think Erieinus, which said is the best word, like 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.560 just something was not right. Yeah, and it's not uncommon. 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.080 It was a perfect American small town, right, there's one diner, 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.800 there's not a movie theater. So again, small insulated. And 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:08.400 you know, we just when we just started trying to 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:12.160 go door to door to meet anyone who could tell 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.720 us about the Rodent family, I would say every single 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.040 person we spoke to legitimately invited us inside and could 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.240 not have been lovelier. There also was the experience of 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.160 knocking on doors knowing very well people are there. We 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.040 there was smoke coming out of the chimney, We physically 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:32.800 saw the curtains be closed, and certain people understandably didn't 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.240 want to speak to us, but those who did, they 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:44.160 were so welcoming. We reached out to journalist Jeff Winkler, 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:48.080 who was doing research on the Wagner family. For me personally. 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.480 When I first got an idea of how the Rodents 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.440 lived and you know, who was related to who and whatnot, 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.120 I think I originally had the sense that the Wagners 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:03.320 were the same sort of um position in terms of 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:09.920 property and and perhaps financial situation. Well not but the Wagners, 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:13.120 I was people rather surprised to learn that they had, 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:18.040 you know, a huge farm. They'd been running various um 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:23.280 farm businesses on this huge bit of land or landlords 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.280 and um there were there was something of a sort 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:30.399 of um sort of a family, if you will, in 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.239 the area. And you know, there were people that they 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.399 they we spoke with that had some very open thoughts 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:43.080 and loving thoughts about the family. In all this, we 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.399 couldn't help wonder how could this esteemed piked In family 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:50.879 allegedly be responsible for Ohio's most horrific murder. It seemed 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:56.240 like everyone had an opinion. Here's Angie Montgomery, a piked 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:58.840 In resident. When the Wagners were arrested, you had your 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.879 fifty fifty had people that said, yes, I knew that 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.200 they did that, and then you've got people that say, 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:09.920 there's no way those people did not happen. But we 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.560 wanted to get the story for ourselves, to talk to 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:15.040 those who actually knew the people accused of carrying out 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:21.639 these ruthless murders. Hello, Hi, Dore, It's Jeff Shane calling Hi. Hi, 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:23.400 How are you it is now a good time. Yeah, 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:27.240 this is Deray McLevy. She's Billy Wagner's cousin and she 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.080 grew up with the Wagner's. Were you close with um Billy? 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:33.200 Billy was quite a bit younger than me. I was 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.520 about eleven years old when Billy was born, but I 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:38.359 was raised with him and we had a whole lot 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.160 of fun. It was so much fun. We all bred horses, 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.840 and we lived in Ohio and it was beautiful, and 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:47.480 it snowed in the wintertime, and it was beautiful in 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:49.200 the Thumber, and we just had so much fun. It 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.040 was unbelievable. He was like a really good dad, right, 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.760 like a hard working just like Sturdy, like good person, right, 0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:01.160 all for his family, all for his family. Deray's depiction 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.840 of her aunt, Frederica Wagner was justice glowing. I spent 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.600 my summers with my aunt Frederica. It was awesome because 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:12.200 we rode horses, we rode ponies, did all kinds of 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:15.240 awesome stuff. I've heard the nicest things about her that 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:19.000 she was like an angel in that town. She had 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.440 to have been an angel in that town because what 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.720 I seen for her, what she did for the community. 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:30.600 She built a church for the community. She financed the 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:36.560 church for the community. She loves people, she loves children. 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.200 But we were curious what did Deray think about the 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.720 charges against her family. Our family joke is that there's 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:48.080 no way that Betty Crocker and the Dobe boys could 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:55.439 ever go to an extreme of murder. It's not within 0:19:55.720 --> 0:20:02.520 their capabilities. They love animals and they love people, and 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:08.000 they are really good at being resilient. And if you 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:13.000 look up the word hill Billy and you really research 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:18.520 that word, they were very resilient in taking care of 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:27.000 their family. Somebody did it, but it wasn't Now. To 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:29.560 get more information on twenty seven year old George and 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.919 twenty six year old Jake Wagner, Angela and Billy Wagner's sons, 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:37.359 we reached out to Christina Howard. Christina's sister, Tabitha, was 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:42.320 married to George Wagner. The pair later divorced. Christina spoke 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:44.920 with Stephanie Lydecker about the time she spent with the 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:49.640 Wagner family. My sister spent a lot of time over 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:53.119 at George's house before they got married. She was pretty 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.000 much living with them at the time. Before she got married. 0:20:56.440 --> 0:21:00.360 And then after she got married, she moved in with them, 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:03.280 and I used to go over there to their house 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:05.800 every now and again. You know. Um, And did he 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.919 seem like a nice guy. What was his demeanor like? Um? 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:13.000 It was funny. He was always cracking jokes and stuff 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:15.480 all the time. So I don't know much about Jake 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.560 Wagner at all. What was he like as a kid? Um? 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:22.040 He was actually really sweet as a kid. We got 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:25.240 along pretty good because you know, we just hung out 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:30.159 all the time, played video games, went outside. Was he shy? Um, 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.720 he wasn't shy with me. He was a really nice 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:37.200 kid and well grown up. My sisters were kind of 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:41.520 bullies to me and Tabby she was dating George at 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.240 the time, and Tabby she would pick on me, and 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.080 Jake he would take up for me, but like, hey, 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.440 don't pick on your little sister like that. It's mean 0:21:50.560 --> 0:22:00.919 and stuff. Here's a Wagner family relative. She asked us 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:02.680 not to use her name, but was happy to talk 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.679 to us about the family. She remembers Angela Wagner as 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:08.320 a caring mother with a big heart. Angela was just 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:13.000 so sweet, like she was the sweetest lady. I mean, 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.399 anybody could ask her for help. I know there was 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.080 multiple times where there was just she had heard, you 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:21.159 know of Um like, there was a woman and her 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:24.399 daughter that was getting out of an abusive relationship and 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:27.359 Angela had just heard about it. She didn't know this lady, 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.440 you know, she had no idea anything about her. She 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:32.280 just knew that this woman and her daughter, you know, 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:35.479 needed help. So Angela went in and helped her get 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:37.720 out of that. You know. She she gave a place 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:40.760 to stay, She made sure that the daughter had clothes 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.240 and food, and um, you know, she would always do 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:48.960 stuff like that for people. Everything we were hearing about 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:51.080 the Wagner seemed at odds with this image of the 0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:57.159 cold blooded killers accused of murdering an entire family. But 0:22:57.440 --> 0:22:59.920 the deeper we dug, the more secrets we began to find. 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:05.959 Jeff continues speaking with the same anonymous Wagner relative who 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:09.399 speaks so glowingly Evangela Wagner. As it turns out, not 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:12.440 everyone in the Wagner family has such a sterling reputation, 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:15.960 and when the conversation shifts to Billy Wagner, things take 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:20.560 a turn. Here is the Wagner relative's firsthand account. Do 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:22.280 you know when she met Billy and like when that 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:25.159 when they got married and how like that relationship started 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:29.480 and progressed. Uh yeah, that was. She has been with 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:36.159 him for um twenty something years, maybe longer, but forwards 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:40.000 he goes um. Now that's a difference. Like I and 0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:44.040 my family, we always kind of thought some kinds was 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:47.400 like off with him. We never act, we never got 0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:49.240 to like connect with him in that way. We always 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:52.800 everybody always trying to knew that there was something strange 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:54.680 or that he was kind of he just had this 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:59.240 persona about him, like he was just a very cold 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:04.680 and hateful person really is what I thought of. In anyways, 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.640 he was just a very rough around me as a guy. 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:12.200 And when it comes to him and Angela, I'm not 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:16.119 sure really how the beginning of their relationship was, but 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:19.399 I know towards the end, like before or you know, 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:22.960 right after all this happened, he was just very controlling, 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:29.520 very controlling. She was afraid of him, extremely afraid of him, 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:36.000 as were the boys now their oldest son George, him 0:24:36.040 --> 0:24:39.280 and his dad. They were kind of like the same. 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:43.960 I I just I don't believe that they're good people 0:24:44.000 --> 0:24:46.680 at all. So what can you tell me? About the 0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:49.760 relationship between Angela and Billy Wagner. I do know that 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:53.680 Angela was She was extremely She was just afraid to leave. 0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:56.560 You know, she was afraid to leave. She was terrified 0:24:56.600 --> 0:24:58.480 that if she did try to leave, that he would 0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:01.399 find her, because he made that very clear. You know 0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:04.280 from what I've heard and what her father had said 0:25:04.320 --> 0:25:06.480 on multiple trasitions, like you know you're not gonna leave. 0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:16.400 Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:22.200 in a moment. How deep does a Mother's Love run? 0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:26.360 Now streaming only on Hulu, Experience for yourself, a real 0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:30.040