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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm editor Kendis Gipson, joined by staff writer Jane mcgraft. Hey, Kennis.

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Speaker 1: Like I do every every Thursday when we have this podcast,

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Speaker 1: I drink my morning coffee out of my Thomas Jefferson

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Speaker 1: mug so I can find a way to bring something

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Speaker 1: about Thomas Jefferson into whatever we were talking about. And

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Speaker 1: one of the principles that our country was founded on

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Speaker 1: is a separation of church and state, and Jefferson was

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Speaker 1: a really strong advocate of that. And I think today

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Speaker 1: issues arise every now and then where the line between

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Speaker 1: church and stood is a little bit blurred. I guess

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, one of the debates was

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Speaker 1: prayer in schools? Should there be prayer in public schools?

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Speaker 1: And that was a church and state sort of issue,

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Speaker 1: And and I think for the most part people would

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Speaker 1: agree that the separation is is a good thing or

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Speaker 1: a mediocre thing, depending on which side of the debate

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Speaker 1: you fall. But if we look back at medieval Europe,

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Speaker 1: we see really strong proof that separating church and state

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Speaker 1: is an excellent idea because when it's not and the

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Speaker 1: Church is corrupt and the church controls the state. It's

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Speaker 1: good to how that's true, and especially the Spanish Inquisition,

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Speaker 1: which I can't believe you connected Thomas Jefferson too, but

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Speaker 1: you did it like six degrees of Kevin Hagen. Yet

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Speaker 1: it's yeah, yeah, um, it's often grouped together with the Crusades.

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Speaker 1: I think of like just dark periods in the Church's

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Speaker 1: history in particular of you know, and and that too.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like it's it's a combination of the

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Speaker 1: political state and religion, and people say that, you know,

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Speaker 1: like horrible atrocities came about because these were too close

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Speaker 1: and because there were abuses, because the political state was

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Speaker 1: taking liberties and using religion against the people. I think

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Speaker 1: you're right, Jane. I think that there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of similarities between the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, and

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Speaker 1: one of the main reasons is that the Church was

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Speaker 1: using the argument that God was on a side and

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Speaker 1: who are the monarchs to buck the church when the

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Speaker 1: Church is essentially a direct agent of God. That's right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And also in connection to through Crusades, and I think

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Speaker 1: it often gets oversimplified in history class. For a lot

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Speaker 1: of reasons. But you know, when you look at you

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Speaker 1: take a close look at it, and not all the

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Speaker 1: actors who involved had quite as like the bad motives

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Speaker 1: that that are associated. And um, it's just interesting to

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Speaker 1: take a look back at the myth surrounding the Inquisition

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Speaker 1: and compare that to the reality that happened. That's true,

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Speaker 1: And if you want to boil the Inquisition down to

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Speaker 1: a basic point, it was a movement about purging. And

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Speaker 1: that may be a rather harsh word. We can certainly

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Speaker 1: think of a lot of other historical movements that were

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Speaker 1: about purging or cleansing a population of a certain type

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Speaker 1: of people. And it wasn't necessarily that the Spanish Inquisition

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Speaker 1: was after one particular opposing religion. They went after Jews

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Speaker 1: and Muslim Moors, and and Protestants and Lutherans specifically, they

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Speaker 1: were after anyone who went upset the status quo. That's right.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting to see, like the original the purpose of

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Speaker 1: the Inquisition was really to only go after go after

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Speaker 1: it's a bad term, but to uh to question Catholics

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Speaker 1: themselves and not any other religion, because the idea is

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Speaker 1: you don't want heresy inside your own religion. The Catholic

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Speaker 1: Church was looking was looking at it from you know,

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Speaker 1: one a bad apple spoils the whole bunch sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: But then it started um getting involved because all these

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Speaker 1: other religions were being persecuted in Spain at the time,

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Speaker 1: and so they were basically more or less forced to convert.

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Speaker 1: And then all these problems came in with the impressiate

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Speaker 1: because when you have people converting to a religion on

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Speaker 1: the basis of fear, and especially fear of death or

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Speaker 1: fear of um being extradited, you have to assume maybe

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Speaker 1: that they're not converting with a sincere faith and your

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Speaker 1: God they're doing it said that they're not called in

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Speaker 1: there and they're not expelled from your country. But before

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Speaker 1: we got any further, let's let's give y'all a framework. Care,

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about Spain and specifically around the elevenths

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Speaker 1: through the nineteen centuries, and also it might help if

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Speaker 1: we define heretic in terms of the Spanish Inquisition, and

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Speaker 1: a heretic essentially was someone who was declaring beliefs that

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Speaker 1: went against the Catholic Church in public. So I guess

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Speaker 1: you could be a heretic in your own home. But

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Speaker 1: if you weren't in a public form or a public

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Speaker 1: place talking about to prove it right, then you could

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Speaker 1: you know, be a private heretic, so public declaration of beliefs. Uh. Secondly,

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Speaker 1: you had to have been approached by a member of

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Speaker 1: the church who had tried to educate you on the

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Speaker 1: fallacy of your beliefs, and you would have had to

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Speaker 1: have made a stand that you would not renounce your beliefs.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And um, we should also put this in

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Speaker 1: context and the fact that it's called the Spanish Inquisition,

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Speaker 1: because there's actually more more inquisitions in the Spanish one

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Speaker 1: and like there's one in Portugal. There was a Roman

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Speaker 1: Inquisition which was famous actually probably heard of how Galileo

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Speaker 1: UH was kind of persecuted for his ideas of the

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Speaker 1: earth revolving around the song, Yes, exactly, and that that

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Speaker 1: happened happened. It had to do with the Roman Inquisition,

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Speaker 1: And so if you think of the Spanish Inquisition in

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Speaker 1: relation to everything else, it's it's sort of seen as

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Speaker 1: the most intense inquisition. It is because they were they

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Speaker 1: were after these heretics who also and there's two more

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Speaker 1: points where to touch on, who were trying to spread

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Speaker 1: their beliefs to other people. And lastly who were possessed

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Speaker 1: of their own free will and and not at the devil.

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Speaker 1: And I guess for me, when I think of heretics

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Speaker 1: and and purging out heresy from a confined group of people,

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Speaker 1: the thing that comes to mind as a Salem witch trials.

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Speaker 1: But in that instant we know that those those girls

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Speaker 1: were possessed either by the devil or maybe even best

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Speaker 1: type of ye kind of moldy grain who knows, but um.

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Speaker 1: In Spain at this time it was much more about

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Speaker 1: preserving the authority of the church and of the monarch.

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Speaker 1: And also it was a little bit mercenary too, because

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Speaker 1: the right side for the financial aspect of the inquisition

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Speaker 1: was that when someone was accused of harris say he

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Speaker 1: or she was, all of its belongings were confiscated and

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Speaker 1: so sort of models the motivations of the people who

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Speaker 1: are accusing again like a flashback to the crusade monetary measures. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's interesting there are all these motivations involved the

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Speaker 1: religious trying to purge oul heretics um political. You know,

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Speaker 1: the monarchs at the time were Ferdinand and Isabella, and

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Speaker 1: they were staunch Catholics, and they used the inquisition partly

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Speaker 1: to just unify control of the country and secure their

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Speaker 1: power there, and as you said, the financial motivations and

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Speaker 1: this all mixed in very well, which was what was

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Speaker 1: going on at the time, which is a growing sentiment

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Speaker 1: of anti anti Semitism. So um, once these Jews were

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Speaker 1: being persecuted in Spain and some were basically forced to convert,

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Speaker 1: it was very easy for the people to start accusing

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Speaker 1: Jews of not being true Catholics, definitely, And in fourteen

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Speaker 1: ninety two, Ferdinand and Isabella they were up to other

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Speaker 1: things too, as y'all or called at Columbus on his

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Speaker 1: mary Way that same year as well, but he issued

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Speaker 1: the al Hambre Decree and that ordered all the Jews

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Speaker 1: out of Spain. And we talked earlier about how some

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Speaker 1: would convert to Catholicism so that they could stay, but

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Speaker 1: they were not welcomed by other members of the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: And we should also give you guys an idea of

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Speaker 1: of how these inquisitions were carried out, and Pope Gregory began,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Pope Gregory the eleventh, you might want to

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Speaker 1: know which room and numeral followed his name. He began

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Speaker 1: the sort of grassroots movement of the Inquisition back in

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Speaker 1: twelve thirty one, which was a long time before uh

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Speaker 1: the al Hombre decree, But it started with the establishment

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Speaker 1: of these tribunals, and he picked theologians from the Dominican

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Speaker 1: order who were very very educated, uh, well versed in

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Speaker 1: the Bible. They knew backwards and forward. So he a

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Speaker 1: long time ago said of the president that these tribunals

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Speaker 1: are very religious people, very smart people would be able

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Speaker 1: to interrogate and ask questions and trick and fool people

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Speaker 1: into confessing the trays. Because these Dominicans were so well

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Speaker 1: versed in detailed obscure theology, they could easily like ask

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Speaker 1: a question like if it was a Dominican who was

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Speaker 1: really going after someone like with bad motivations, they could

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Speaker 1: really um ask a very obscure question to be like, well,

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Speaker 1: what would you say about this? And if they happen

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Speaker 1: to give the wrong answer, the Dominicans can say, well

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Speaker 1: that's not technically true, right, or the question itself, whether

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Speaker 1: it was about Bible knowledge that the Jews might not

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Speaker 1: have had, or or the Moors or someone else, the

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Speaker 1: question itself could be so up to no one in

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Speaker 1: their right mind could answer it, and that was the

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Speaker 1: upper hand. So we know the type of people who

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Speaker 1: are conducting the inquisitions, we know who's under the inquisition,

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Speaker 1: who's being I guess inquired after, and we also know

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Speaker 1: that it was sort of a constantly evolving process. We

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Speaker 1: see the Jews being really persecuted in the fifteenth century,

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Speaker 1: and then we see when Spain conquers Granada it's doing

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Speaker 1: the same thing to the Moors. And then in the

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Speaker 1: sixteenth century they're going after the Protestants. So it's like

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Speaker 1: this continuing cycle of well, who can we bring to

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Speaker 1: this fault knacks. And I think it's interesting about the

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Speaker 1: Jews in particular because anti Semitism started way back, I'd

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Speaker 1: say in the fourteenth century, and a lot of the

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Speaker 1: stem from the plague, actually, the Bondic plague. Jews were

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Speaker 1: often blamed for this because I've heard the theory that

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Speaker 1: Jews kept more cats, and so their cats would kill rats,

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Speaker 1: which carried the fleas that carried the plague. So um

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Speaker 1: it showed that um it seemed too many people that

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Speaker 1: less Jews were dying of the plague, so people blame

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Speaker 1: the Jews for like you know, for causing it, and

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Speaker 1: so this fed a lot of anti Semitism, and then

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Speaker 1: by about thirty eight UH and then again in UH

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Speaker 1: there were violent attacks and basically massacres are called pro

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Speaker 1: pogroms um against Jews in Spain. And the difficult thing

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Speaker 1: about being brought to one of these tribunals if you

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Speaker 1: were a Jew or more or a Lutheran, is that

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Speaker 1: you had to testify on your behalf. If you did

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Speaker 1: not testify, it was automatically assumed that you were you

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Speaker 1: were guilty of harrisy. And the scary thing is that

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Speaker 1: you could be brought before a tribunal and not told

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Speaker 1: what the charge wise. And also you didn't know who

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Speaker 1: else was going to be testifying against you, and you

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Speaker 1: didn't have a lawyer or anyone else to help you

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Speaker 1: in your case. And the same people who were conducting

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Speaker 1: the inquisition were also the ones who issue the punishment,

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Speaker 1: so it was it was a very corrupt matter and

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Speaker 1: a very corrupt state of affairs. And another important term

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Speaker 1: to remember when you're talking about the inquisition in history

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Speaker 1: is an auto de fe i believe it's pronounced. These

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Speaker 1: were famous ceremonial sentencing of heretics, and what happened was

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Speaker 1: it was elaborate, in spectacular like procession and a mass,

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Speaker 1: and then you give an oath of obedience to the Inquisition,

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Speaker 1: and then there was a sermon, and then at the

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Speaker 1: end they read the sentences to uh to give to

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Speaker 1: the heretics. And although they didn't actually um served, they

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Speaker 1: didn't actually punish them and carry out the sentences at

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Speaker 1: this ceremony, a lot of people later associating them altogether.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of people associate the Inquisition with torture.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that certainly is one of the

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Speaker 1: lasting legacies of the Spanish Inquisition, that you know, that

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Speaker 1: sort of rapid fire questioning and then also the torture

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Speaker 1: that accompanied it. But you should know and be clear

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Speaker 1: on the fact that torture didn't really become a part

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Speaker 1: of the Inquisition until around twelve fifty two, and that

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Speaker 1: was when Pope and Is in the fourth issued a

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Speaker 1: bull that permitted torture to extract confession from the supposed heretics.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And I was reading historian Helen Rowling. She

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Speaker 1: was arguing that, um, you know, although the Inquisition associated

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Speaker 1: with torture and the death penalty. They only basically, almost

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Speaker 1: exclusively implemented these things in the first two decades of

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Speaker 1: the Inquisition. And she compares this to other countries in

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Speaker 1: Europe at the time, like England and around Germany, where

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Speaker 1: they were burning heretics for much longer time up until

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Speaker 1: the sixteen hundreds. And we know from the secret Vatican

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Speaker 1: records that were released a hundred years after all the

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Speaker 1: Inquisition activities had ended, we know that there was actually

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Speaker 1: just a very small percentage of of heretics who died.

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Speaker 1: And I think that Pope John Paul the second made

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Speaker 1: this clear and gave us a speech to talk about,

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Speaker 1: you know, reparations and working past all of that and understanding,

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Speaker 1: you know that the proper lasting legacy of the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: And I think he pointed out that about and forty

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Speaker 1: thousand accused heretics, maybe a zero point one we're actually killed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've heard that stuff. And uh, it's interesting, you know,

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Speaker 1: I all these historians are coming out in the twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: if you look at the timeline of this, and they're

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Speaker 1: starting to question the myth surrounding the Inquisition and all

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Speaker 1: of the propaganda basically, and historians are saying, like a

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Speaker 1: lot of this is exaggerated. Um, the torture and everything

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Speaker 1: that happened with the Inquisition is exaggerated because of partly

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Speaker 1: the president revolution, like anti Catholicism propaganda, and also just

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Speaker 1: political enemies of Spain. You know, an anti Spain sentiment

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Speaker 1: would exaggerate this as well. And um, if you just

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Speaker 1: couldn't consider it in contest compared to other things that

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Speaker 1: we're going on. It's just interesting to see the myth

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Speaker 1: that is really central of the Spanish Inquisition that it

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Speaker 1: was like the worst thing, how happening, and nothing that

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Speaker 1: horrible has ever happened, you know, anywhere else, when really

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Speaker 1: it's it's not that's it's not that simple. And I

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Speaker 1: think that the main purpose, really we mustn't forget is

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Speaker 1: that the members of the Inquisition they wanted a confession

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Speaker 1: from the supposed heretics that they could bring them back

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Speaker 1: into the church community. Essentially, they didn't want anyone to

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Speaker 1: have wandered off the path as it were. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was because they were a threat to the status quo

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Speaker 1: of authority, but also you know, they were believers and

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Speaker 1: they really did believe that this would save their souls.

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Speaker 1: This would save their souls exactly. So, yes, it may

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Speaker 1: have been about money, Yes it may have been about power,

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Speaker 1: but it was also about looking out for once fell

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Speaker 1: a man. In some contemporary opinions of the time, like

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Speaker 1: some were totally for it, saying like this will save

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Speaker 1: their souls and we need to take these harsh actions.

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Speaker 1: But some others are more sympathetic, and even from a

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Speaker 1: logical standpoint, they saw, um how counterproductive it was to

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Speaker 1: to be so um harsh and persecute people like Jews,

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Speaker 1: and that would drive them to exile, which would basically

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Speaker 1: them in a position of like they would never be

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Speaker 1: exposed because also they would never be converted. And so

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Speaker 1: you know, there were different opinions at the time too

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Speaker 1: that were more sensible. So those heretics who did stay

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Speaker 1: and who did confess, whether they actually were heretics or

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Speaker 1: whether they were confessing because they had been tortured or

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Speaker 1: questioned to the point of confessing, they were given penances.

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Speaker 1: And some of them are as simple as wearing well

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Speaker 1: maybe not simples the I word to use, but they

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Speaker 1: were given penances like wearing really heavy crosses around their necks,

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Speaker 1: or they were made to go on pilgrimages and others

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Speaker 1: were forced to stay in prison. But I think that

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Speaker 1: the legacy of torture that endures in regards to the

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Speaker 1: Spanish Inquisitions because the torture and and pardon my my,

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Speaker 1: Glee was saying that it was just it was so

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Speaker 1: amazing and just creatively constructed. I mean, I know that's

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Speaker 1: a crazy thing to say, but you look at some

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Speaker 1: of these crazy I know, I know, I'm just glowing

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Speaker 1: thinking about it, but you look at some of these

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Speaker 1: devices that they used, like the rack and thumb screws

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Speaker 1: and and burning coals on people's bo these, I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is the stuff that that horror movies and you know,

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Speaker 1: like body stripping, historical dramas are made up. This is

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Speaker 1: what people want to remember about history. And it's true.

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Speaker 1: It's more dramatic and it is It's similar to reduce

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Speaker 1: the Spanish Inquisition down to a person being stretched across

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Speaker 1: Iraq and their joints being pulled in opposite directions to

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Speaker 1: the point where their ligament snap and their bones come

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Speaker 1: out of their sockets. I'm just saying it is one

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Speaker 1: way to think of the Finish Inquisition, but it should

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Speaker 1: not be the only way. So whether my um all

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Speaker 1: of a Sudden Blood Thursday nos has intrigued you for

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Speaker 1: more details, or you want to know more about the

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Speaker 1: Catholic Church and the Reformation, medieval England, or Ferdinand and

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Speaker 1: Isabella and Columbus. Be sure to check out how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com and if you have any questions for

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Speaker 1: Jane and me, please email us at podcast It has

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Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands

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