WEBVTT - Mystery Cults, Part 4 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:15.080 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:15.640 is Robert. 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:18.279 Lamba, and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.400 the fourth and final part in our discussion of the 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:25.560 mystery cults of the ancient Greco Roman world. We had 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.040 a break in the series on Tuesday of this week 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.720 to air a conversation that we had about Amphibians with 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:36.199 Mark Mandica of the Amphibian Foundation in Atlanta, and now 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:39.000 we're back to finish our business with the mysteries. 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:41.600 Yeah. By the way, we also aired the interview because 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:44.360 I was out of town to attend the iHeart Podcast 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.599 Awards in Austin at south By Southwest. We were nominated 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:51.920 for Best Science Podcast, which was awarded to Ali Ward's Ologies. 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:54.400 Well deserved and I got to chat with her briefly, 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:58.240 which was nice. But seeing is how our nomination might 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:00.480 have some new eyes on Stuff to Book Your Mind. 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:03.080 You might be wondering, well, why is a science podcast 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.320 talking about mystery cults and religion. Well, we talk about 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:09.000 a lot of things here on Stuff to Believe Your Mind. 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.800 We consider ourselves a science and culture podcast, with science 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:15.840 being the underlying bedrock, but we do explore topics that 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:21.039 veer into historical, philosophical, mythic, and folkloric areas as well. 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.679 And if you are new to the show, that's just 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:27.280 happens to be where you're coming in. We should also 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:28.920 let you know this is part four of a four 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.479 part series, so there's that as well. 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.880 Yeah, when this many syllables are allowed, I call us 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.600 an interdisciplinary science podcast. We try to bring most things 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.080 back to science in one way or another, but we 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:43.880 like to connect to lots of other topic domains. 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.360 Yeah, but you know, if you ask me in an 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.600 elevator what I do for a living, and I say 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:51.440 podcast host, and you ask what kind of podcasts, I 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:53.400 may just go ahead and just say science podcast and 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:54.800 that is still accurate. 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:58.000 Now, I guess we should do a brief refresher on 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.600 the first three parts of this series, which in the 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.400 previous weeks. The subject once again is the mystery cults 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:08.720 of the ancient Mediterranean, which are defined primarily by their 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:14.799 emphasis on secret mystic rites of initiation. So whereas you'd 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.840 have the public cults of the Greco Roman world, they 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:21.919 would be mostly built around a transactional system of sacrifice 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:26.200 and rituals performed by people in the expectation that the 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.959 gods would give them blessings in return. I do sacrifices 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.680 and rituals for you. You give me blessings for the 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.400 for outcomes in war, for outcomes in health, for the harvest, 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:40.760 and so forth. And by contrast, the mystery cults seem 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:45.239 to be driven by the need to create intense, emotionally 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:51.680 powerful religious experiences. Experience is brought on by participation in 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:56.239 these occult initiation rituals, which are all the more fascinating 0:02:56.280 --> 0:03:01.080 to us, certainly as consumers across the divide history, but 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.239 also fascinating to people even at the time, to outsiders 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.920 at the time, because these rites were kept secret from 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:13.440 non initiates. So in some cases historians have some strong 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.880 guesses about what went on in the mysteries, and in 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.960 other cases we really don't know much at all, and 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:22.200 that just makes it all the more fascinating now and 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.960 back then as well. So in Part one of this series, 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.640 we primarily talked about the social and religious context in 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:33.079 which the mystery cults existed, and many of the features 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.440 of the public cults of Greek and Roman polytheism and 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.560 how these public cults differed in general from the features 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:43.160 of mystery religions. In parts two and three, we talked 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:47.280 in detail about a couple of specific mystery cults, and 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.640 we talked first about mythraism, which flourished in the Roman 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:54.120 Empire from the first to the fourth century CE, and 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.440 then also we talked about the Elusinian mysteries based out 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.560 of the Sanctuary of Demeter and Corey at ill Uses, 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.160 a place just west of the city of Athens. 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:04.320 Now. 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.880 One of the best sources we have found on the subject, 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.800 which we've referred to throughout the series, is a book 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.840 by a historian named Hugh Boden called Mystery Cults in 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.000 the Ancient World and Huge Apologies. I think I've been 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.080 mispronouncing his last name. In the previous episodes. I was 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.680 calling him Hugh Bowden, but I listened to part of 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.040 the audio book and the reader there calls him Boden, 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:26.479 So apologies, Hugh Boden. 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.760 I also made the same mistake, though I think I 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:35.800 accidentally called him the correct name once, so I'll give 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:39.040 myself backwards congratulation for that one mess up. 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:41.240 If you want to go deep on the mystery cults, 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.440 I do recommend reading this book because there's so much 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.839 more interesting stuff the Boden discusses that we didn't even 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.640 have time to get into in any way here just 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:52.520 to touch on briefly some of the other things that 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.280 come up, but there are chapters on other specific mystery 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.680 cults in the ancient world, such as the cult of Isis, 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:03.400 the cult of Dayanai, the cults of nameless gods and 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:08.040 gods without myths, the cults of a figure known as 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.040 the Great Mother or the Mother of the Gods, and 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.120 there are just so many things. One thing that I 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.640 found really interesting in the book was there's a chapter 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:21.719 on what Boden calls the private initiator, is these sort 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:25.960 of religious professionals who would be It would be different 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.560 than say the example of the cult of ill Usus, 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.839 where there is a cult of these secret rights that 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:35.000 has a sort of specific home base and people come 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.160 to the temple to take part in the mysteries. This 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:42.880 instead would be versions of mystery cults that are sort 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.200 of purveyed by a person who goes around claiming to 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:50.440 be a religious expert who can teach you the secrets 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.640 or can initiate you, and this figure being treated by 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.479 some authors as a kind of con artist of the 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:01.120 ancient world, someone of ill repute who preyed on the gullible. 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:05.080 Yeah. I found this really interesting as well, in part 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:08.920 because about the same time I was reading this, I 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.919 also watched the season four debut of The Righteous Gemstones, 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.880 which that episode features a Civil War flashback to a 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:20.239 robber turned fake pastor turned perhaps real pastor in some senses, 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.240 And of course the whole series comedically pokes at the 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:26.880 line between sincere religiosity and deception. 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.880 Right now, the book we're talking about, it's not making 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.040 the argument that all of these people in the ancient 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.839 world actually were necessarily con artists or deceivers. That's instead 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.560 that seems to be a common way they were portrayed 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:41.440 and say dramas of the time. 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:46.600 Yeah, yeah, now, and particularly these yeah, private initiators. They 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.080 come up a few different times in the book, and indeed, 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:52.320 as he points out, they are called out in Plato's 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.440 Republic as the sort that quote go to rich men's 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.000 doors and make them believe that they, by means of 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:02.520 sacrifices and incantations, have accumulated a treasure of power from 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:07.000 the gods that can expiate and cure with pleasurable festivals. 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.560 So yeah, they're going they're going door to door, they'reknocking 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:15.440 on the right doors and saying, hey, you interested in 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.800 that whole mystery cult thing, because I have it here 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.000 with me and we can get you where you need 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:22.680 to go. Or at least that's my interpretation of the 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:24.400 allegations that are made here. 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:26.640 Well, I mean, I feel like there's a thing that 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.360 still exists. I think a lot of quite wealthy people, 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:31.960 you know, there's the idea of they might have their 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:36.560 own personal spiritual advisor who's kind of you could say 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:39.240 in some cases that's well, that's great, that's something everybody 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:41.320 should have, you know, there's somebody who that can kind 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.520 of bounce ideas off of and find sacred ways of 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:46.440 looking at life. But then the more cynical way of 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.680 looking at it is they're they're just looking to pay 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.360 somebody money to make them feel good about themselves. 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:56.080 Yeah. Now, in reading about this, I was also reminded 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.080 of another cult of deity that I don't believe Boden 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:01.120 gets into in this book, or perhaps I'm just not 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.720 remembering it, and that is the deity Glicon. 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:06.800 I don't remember that coming up in the book. 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.600 This is a snake god whose cult was popular during 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.400 the second and third century CE, so you know, similar 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.600 timeframe to some of these other cults we've been discussing. 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.720 He even pops up on some Roman coins. If you 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.520 look up at an image of Glicon, this deity tends 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:28.360 to look like a snake with like long hair and 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:34.600 maybe a slightly unserpentine head and face. It's an interesting look. 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:38.960 And you also might be familiar with Glicon due to 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.440 the fact that writer and comics legend Alan Moore has 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.480 I think maybe partially ingest sometimes it's kind of hard 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.679 to tell with more, but he has expressed his devotion 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.880 to Glicon as first of all, an obvious hoax and 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.880 secondly being a hoax less likely to become problematic and 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:00.559 dangerous in the way of other deities in religion. Mm. 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:04.680 Yeah, sorry, I looked up the statues of like On 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:06.800 with the hair and he looks like he's got rock 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:07.320 star hair. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:08.640 Yeah he really does. 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.040 Yeah, yeah, lead singer snake. 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:15.920 So criticism of Glycan's cult as a hoax goes back 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:20.960 to the writings of the ancient world Lucian of Samosata, 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:24.760 who wrote scathingly of the cult as being a creation 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:30.160 of Greek mystic and oracle Alexander of Avenotitus, centered again, 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:35.040 centered around an enigmatic snake with human hair that allegedly 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.400 might have consisted of a live snake with like a 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:42.200 fake head or mask on, or perhaps a puppet of 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:46.199 some sort. And this cult did apparently engage in both 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:51.200 secrecy and overstimulating rituals. So it does seem like the 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:55.320 sort of cult you could loosely classify as a mystery cult, 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.200 or if you're leaning into the allegations of fraud here, 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:02.000 as a pseudo mystery cult. Yeah, and I think this 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.640 is all worth thinking about as we reflect on what 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:10.120 we've talked about in the previous episodes, Because, as we discussed, 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:14.920 theatrical effects were employed in the mystery cult initiations, it 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:15.800 would seem. 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:18.040 And strongly suspected. 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.200 Yes, yes, And for that matter, you know, if you're 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:25.760 to say, okay, theatrical effects are for fine, but no puppets, 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.160 pupp that's just a sception. Well then why shouldn't we 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:33.440 become complete iconoclasts and refuse religious imagery altogether? You know, 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:37.320 just say, well, likenesses, statues, altars. Arguments can be made 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:39.920 that all of that as well is part of a 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:45.840 theatrical effect to create a feeling of the sacred and 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:46.440 so forth. 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.400 I'd argue one of the most powerful special effects that 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:52.240 can be deployed by a religion is something a lot 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:54.880 of people wouldn't even think about as a special effect, 0:10:54.920 --> 0:11:00.720 and that's music. Music has overwhelming emotional power and can 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:04.040 certainly cause people to get into ecstatic states even a 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.920 secular Even in a secular setting, you know, at concerts 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:09.079 and stuff like that, people get into ecstatic states when 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:11.120 they're not expecting to meet the power of a god. 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.360 Imagine you go into a powerful musical experience and you 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:19.680 are expecting to meet a god and experience their power. Yeah, 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:21.439 and so like that doesn't even cross a lot of 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:25.320 people's minds. That like, music is a special effect designed 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.320 to sort of set you up to have a certain 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:32.560 kind of emotional vulnerability or openness to an experience, maybe 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.960 a religious of an experience or secular nature. 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.679 That's a great point. And what's so interesting about that 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:41.960 point is that I myself will be I'll be quicker 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:47.400 to criticize a film for emotionally manipulating me with its music, 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.000 then I will some sort of religious ceremony where they 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.720 are likely doing something of the same nature. 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:56.480 Yeah, And I think this is funny because people get 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:00.559 people get really excited and interested about the idea of 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:06.000 hallucinogenic compounds possibly being used in these ancient cults, like 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:08.360 you know, and we can't rule it out. 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:09.600 They may or may not have been. 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.000 I think some of the arguments for us We've just 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.600 talked in the last episode about how say the arguments 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:20.440 for ergotism is being used at elusis or probably not 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:21.160 very strong. 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:22.440 You know. 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:25.320 You could maybe say it's a little more possible that 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.960 mushrooms were involved, but there's not strong evidence for that. 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.920 But people are really captivated by this idea. There's a 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:35.480 lot less attention seems to be paid to how often 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:38.440 music is mentioned, and a lot of these ceremonies as 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:39.760 being like a key element. 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:40.080 You know. 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:44.440 The rights of Dionysus involve ecstatic dancing on the mountain 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:48.559 side out in the wild with overwhelming loud music, shrieking 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.240 and flutes and drums and singing. I don't know, that 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.280 sounds to me like its own kind of hallucinogen. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:55.080 In a way. 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:57.280 Yeah, they have the rhythm of the heat. 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.040 In fact, it comes back to a strain comparison that 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.760 Boden does make in his book. There's a part where 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:09.200 he talks about, I think quite convincingly notices parallels between 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.959 ecstatic religious experiences and rave culture. 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.920 That's a great connection. You know. We also mentioned in 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.040 Passing some of the ideas that Terrence McKenna had. Terrence 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:23.400 McKenna also was very much an advocate of, I guess 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:27.040 more like the sort of cy trance culture, but adjacent 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.360 to rave culture, and a part of that, very much 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:31.280 tying that in with the sort of the same sort 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:37.240 of experiences that that may have played a part in 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:43.520 ancient religions. Yes, now coming back to allegations of fraud 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:47.400 in the ancient world concerning mystery cults, especially gly couldn't hear, 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.080 we also have to reflect on some of the things 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:57.120 that Boden points out regarding critics of mystery cults who 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:02.400 would often dwell on alleged spoiler regarding sacred items that 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.840 are part of the initiation, such as you know, revealing 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.000 oh it's a grain of wheat or whatnot, you know, 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:10.839 letting you know what's in the secret box, and by 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:15.320 removing the spoiler from the context of the initiation, you know, 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.200 attempting to sort of gut punch it a little bit 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.640 and say, look, this religion is about nothing, because this 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:20.760 is what is in the box. 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:21.640 Yeah, exactly. 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:24.480 So some of these claims we have of the secret 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.680 content of the mysteries come from Christian apologists who were 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.520 opposed to the mystery cults, and we're talking about how, oh, 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:34.560 these things are stupid, they're celebrations of error, or sometimes 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.920 they even make these weird kind of numerological or kind 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.440 of word play arguments that like, oh, actually, here's why 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:45.480 you know they're they're instead of celebrating the wisdom of 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.040 the gods, they're worshiping the error of Eve and eating 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:52.080 the apple or something. So so, yeah, they're not a 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:56.120 fan of these rival religions, and they're revealing the secrets 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:58.280 in order to lampoon them in a way. 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:00.800 Yeah, so we have to keep all of that in 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.840 mind when we're considering these criticisms. So, on one hand, 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.600 it's possible that a cult like that of Glycans could 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.760 be considered in keeping with just theatrics of the time, 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.080 like maybe you're just dwelling a little bit too much 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.640 on the fact that, yes, they're using theatrical effects to 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:22.600 enhance the initiation rights of the mystery, you know, and 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.600 because in this particular case, the cult of Glican it 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.520 was likely a spin on already established snake cults in 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:33.440 the region, and it seems to have survived in some 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:38.560 form or re emerged after its creator's death. It's also 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:42.400 possible that Alexander, the creator, alleged creator of the religion 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.400 was not that different from other mystics of the time. 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.360 We just happened to have strong surviving criticism of him, 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:54.000 whereas we might not have that regarding other particular mystery cults. 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:59.960 On the other hand, if Alexander really was, as Lucian charged, 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.520 is involved in murder plots against his critics, well then 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.680 perhaps there was something kind of singular about him, and 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.040 he really was a heel. I was reading a bit 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:14.240 more about this in an article titled Narcissistic Fraud in 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.560 the Ancient World by Stephen A. Kent. This was published 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.320 in Ancient Narrative back in two thousand and seven, and he 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.680 contends that based on what we know about Alexander from 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.600 these writings, he may well have been the sort of 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.760 person that we'd now classify as a malignant narcissist. 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:33.960 Oh it sounds juicy. I wanted to tell me more. 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:38.680 Okay, Well, Lucian had a lot to say. He really 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:43.240 digs into this guy. I'll read a few quotes from him. 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:47.720 He points out that Alexander quote was tall and good looking, 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.800 really godlike, with a fair complexion, a beard that was 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:54.360 not very thick, hair partially natural and partially false, but 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:56.800 so well matched that most people couldn't tell the difference. 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:59.800 His eyes flashed like one possessed, while his voice was 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.760 very clear and pleasant. And he goes on to talk 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:06.200 about various other positive attributes that this guy had, and 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:08.760 talking about how when you met him, you believe that 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.800 this guy you know, believe you know this guy, believe 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:15.000 everything he's telling you is very sincere. And he had 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.320 all of these gifts, but quote, he used them for 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:21.440 the worst purposes, and equipped with noble instruments, he lost 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:24.360 no time in becoming the most accomplished of those who 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.879 have been notorious for wickedness. And he goes on to 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.480 accuse him of being quote a quack, the type who 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:35.200 offer magic spells and marvelous incantations charms for love, affairs, 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:40.960 afflictions for your enemies, discoveries of buried treasure, and inheritances 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.200 to his states. He also goes into detail about You're 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:48.080 going to be tired of winning, and then he also 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:50.960 goes in it goes on to discuss a little bit 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.840 about the Gliton puppet in question, about first of all, 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.160 Alexander would he alleges that he would do some sort 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:00.240 of an act where he would chew on soap work 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:03.439 that would cause him to foam at the mouth so 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.520 that he could fake some sort of a fit of madness. 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:12.560 And then also that the act of producing gly kind 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:16.480 involved quote a snake's head made of linen. It had 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.879 a slightly human look to it and was painted to 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.439 look completely lifelike. Its mouth opened and closed by means 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.320 of horse hairs, and the tongue black and forked like 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.719 a snake's would shoot out, also controlled by hairs. 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.800 So I guess I don't fully understand the spirit of 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.760 the allegation. Is it a problem that it's a puppet, 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.480 or is it that like, oh, he's trying to say, 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:39.760 it's not a puppet, it's a puppet he's trying to 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:41.560 pass off as a living organism. 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:45.400 Well, his criticism here, and I should add that historians 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.560 seem to agree that this is this is an actual 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:53.080 historic individual it is being criticized here. Yeah, I'm to 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:56.399 understand the stronger criticism here is that he's a scoundrel, 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.639 but I mean, he's also accused of being a quack, 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.280 so the fakeness of what he is doing, the theatrical 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:08.119 effects are also being criticized here, and it seems like 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:15.080 one interpretation could be that those particular criticisms are perhaps 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:19.240 maybe a little unfair compared to what is probably going 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.760 on with other mystery religions of the time. However, again, 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:27.520 if Alexander It really is as deceptive and awful as 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:29.960 he is accused of being here, then we definitely have 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.000 to take that into account too, and maybe that's what 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:33.360 pushes it over the edge here. 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.600 Now, this could be totally off base because as I said, 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:39.960 I don't know much about what Lucian is doing here. 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:43.359 But I wonder also could it be that a criticism 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.080 like this could be aimed at such a puppet being 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:50.280 in bad taste Like to the people of the time, 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:54.560 you'd have a certain kind of sensibility about what is 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:59.600 accept what are the acceptable special effects within a religious context, 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:03.440 and what are the not acceptable special effects the same 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:05.680 way that people would now, Like, there are certain types 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.720 of things that people think, oh, yeah, that fits right 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:10.880 in at a church. Music, it fits in in most 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.680 churches in some form. That's a powerful special effect. But 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:15.840 there are other things that if you did them in 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.320 a church, people in our culture would probably say, like, 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:23.320 that's really gaudy, that's that's not the appropriate tone. 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:24.399 You know. 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:25.440 I wonder if something like. 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.040 That could be operative in other times and places in 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:28.920 history as well. 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.919 Like he is, he is crossing a line that his 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.639 critics are not ready for. But perhaps some of the 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.280 initiates are cool with or have come to accept or 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.280 just have a you know, a different threshold. 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.880 For Yeah, Like probably a lot of churches today would 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.160 be fine with music, but not with a pyrotechnics display 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.760 for the sermon. But I bet some some use them, probably. 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:53.959 Yeah, But I mean even you know, generationally in churches, 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:56.600 for example, you'll have some that are like electric guitars 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:58.960 in a service. That's just that's not done. You shouldn't 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:00.600 say that, And others are like, no, that's what we're 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.640 doing and that's what's bringing people in. So you know, 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:07.000 I think you could probably get into what might in 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:10.359 the long term be silly disputes about what is proper 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:15.240 and isn't proper given any particular religious right or service. 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:20.399 So yeah, I'm unsure exactly where to parse all of 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:24.440 the glycin situation here. But again, the cult of Glicon 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:29.000 did deal in theatrics and secrets, and what Lucian here 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:41.480 is doing is definitely spilling some tea about the secrets. 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:45.600 That brings us back to an interesting subject that I 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:48.800 did want to return to today. So there was a 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.640 scholar I talked about in Part three named Kevin Clinton 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:55.840 who wrote a chapter that dealt with the Elusinian mysteries, 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:59.720 And there's a part where Clinton was exploring a passage 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:04.040 and Aristotle making the case that the initiate who goes 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:08.280 through the secret rights at ilusis is not supposed to 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:13.800 learn anything. They're not there to get information, but rather 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:18.119 to have an experience. And then Aristotle says, and thus 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:23.359 by having the experience to become fit or deserving. I 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:27.359 interpret that as deserving of a certain kind of relationship 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:29.200 or intimacy with the gods. 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:31.200 But this really goes. 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:35.000 Against our normal idea of a secret doesn't it Like 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:40.000 when we talk about secrets, a secret is almost always 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:45.440 understood to mean information kept hidden from someone. So by 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.880