1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for a classic episode 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: of the show. This one is about the moa of 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: New Zealand. Uh, one of your one of your great 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: loves of the past year. Yeah, this one was really 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: this is a really fun topic to get into. This 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: is gonna be a two parter um. I I will 9 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: point out that we didn't one thing. We didn't really 10 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: get into the and these episodes where changes in our 11 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: understanding of the sort of the stature of the moa, 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 1: exactly how it stood and how tall it would actually be. Uh. 13 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: We ended up addressing that, I think in a subsequent 14 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: listener mail episode. But uh, but but I think everything 15 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: still holds up. I don't think any any MOA experts 16 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: or MOA's uh had any any other corrections rather than 17 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: to to point out that we didn't really touch on 18 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: that particular issue and these initial two episodes. Wait, So 19 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: basically the deal is that maybe maybe the moa was 20 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: more often bent over forwards rather than rather than standing 21 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: up straight. Yeah, yeah, I guess. Yeah, it's one of those, um, 22 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: those situations that come up from time to time in 23 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: our understanding of fossils, you know, like it's one thing 24 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: to put the bones together, but another to actually uh 25 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: display them or position them, uh in a way that 26 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: would be in keeping with the actual stature of the animal. 27 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: For instance, we see this in our changing understanding of 28 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: t rex is over time. You know, you look back 29 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: at the old illustrations of t rexes, and there were 30 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: a lot more vertical, a lot more erect. But if 31 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: you look at more recent depictions of how a t 32 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: rex would stand, you know, it's more horizontal. It's more 33 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: in keeping with the way a chicken carries itself. Okay, 34 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: we'll keep that in mind. But otherwise, uh, let's let's 35 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: head in Welcome Too to Blow Your Mind production of 36 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 37 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 38 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: And to uh introduce today's episode, I thought maybe we 39 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: should begin by reading a poem. Robert or you game, 40 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: I'm game for a little little poetry. In fact, it's 41 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: not just poetry, it's moetry. I did not make that 42 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: joke in my head yet, but maybe because I'm not 43 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: as perverse as you. This is by the New Zealand 44 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: poet Alan kerr Now's was originally published in nineteen and 45 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: it's called The Skeleton of the Great Moa in Canterbury Museum, 46 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: christ Church. The Skeleton of the Moa, on iron crutches, 47 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: broods over no great waste, deprivate swamp was where this 48 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: tree grew feathers once that hatches its dusty clutch and 49 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: guards them from the damp. Interesting failure to adapt on 50 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: islands taller but not more fallen than I, who come 51 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: bone to his bone. Peculiarly New Zealand's The eyes of 52 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: children flicker around this tomb under the skylights, wonder at 53 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: the huge egg found in a thousand pieces, piece together, 54 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: but with less patients than the bones that dug in 55 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: time deep shelter against the ocean weather. Not I, some 56 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: child born in a marvelous year will learn the trick 57 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: of standing upright here. You can find that poem, by 58 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: the way, in the nineteen seventy nine Anthology and Anthology 59 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: of twentieth century New Zealand Poetry. And yeah, I really 60 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: love the cadence of that poem. And also I feel 61 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: like it effectively captures the weird beauty of these reassembled 62 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: skeleton remains one sees of the mighty moa. You know, 63 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: we just did Marianne Moore in the paper Nautilus. This 64 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: is another poem like that. I love a good poem 65 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: that genuinely ponders biology like this deals with the evolutionary 66 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: adaptation of the moa, the flightless birds of New Zealand, 67 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: uh and and the idea of learning the trick of 68 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: standing upright. Yeah, now, this is gonna be a fun 69 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: couple of episodes. I'm really excited about these episodes. So 70 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: I think that the moa is one of the things 71 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: that's really keeping me going right now, getting to research, 72 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: read about the moa, and envision the moa. Uh No, 73 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: no matter what where I don't know where you are 74 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: out there, if you're listening to this, where you are 75 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: in your previous understanding of of the moa and other 76 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: flightless birds. But this is a This is a wonderful 77 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: and weird story that has as a number of number 78 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: of connections to things we've talked about in the past, 79 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: but but also some some new angles. We're gonna be 80 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: talking about evolution. We're gonna be talking about first contact 81 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: between man and beast. It's a it's gonna be a 82 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: fun ride. And there's no better place to start a 83 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: fun ride than in New Zealand, the land of avian decadence, 84 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: that's right, and the place where the mammal is truly debase. 85 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: That's right because you, I know, obviously the rise of 86 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: mammals is one of evolutions most celebrated victory stories, right 87 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: because in part because we are, of course mammals ourselves, 88 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: and there's perhaps a sense of of the gods and 89 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: the primordial titans when we consider the age of the 90 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: dinosaurs that came before us in our own mammalian age 91 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: that we have, you know, ascended in now. Well, yeah, 92 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: I mean there's very much a case of when you 93 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: look at the Cretaceous paleogy and extinction event that caused 94 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: the demise of the non avian dinosaurs, Uh, it's quite 95 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: clear that their loss was our gain, yes, but it 96 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: was wasn't only our gain. It was also the gain 97 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: of of birds, and we often neglect the just the 98 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: exceptional dominance of birds for theirs is the the legacy 99 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: of the of the dinosaur. And then they remain highly 100 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: successful and widespread to this day. They remain masters of 101 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: the air, frequent masters of the water, and sometimes masters 102 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: of the land as well. Now, why would birds be 103 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: the masters of the land, Like they've got the air 104 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: that seems so much better than the land, why even 105 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: bother with the land? Well, of course, the obvious answer 106 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: there is that is that to be a master of 107 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: the of the air requires a great deal of energy, 108 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: and if you don't have to fly around, you quickly 109 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: find reasons not to Evolutionarily speaking, of course, also if 110 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about mammals and avian dinosaurs or birds, why 111 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: exactly was it that the loss of the dinosaurs was 112 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: the gain of these other clades. Well, because suddenly you 113 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: have all of these uh, these niches in the in 114 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: the in in in the in the environment that open up. Uh. 115 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: That's suddenly a bird can can occupy, or various creatures 116 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: have the ability to occupy mammals included. But this is 117 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: where we see the emergence of a number of these 118 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: different flightless birds. This is where we see the emergence 119 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: of the terror birds and the demon ducks. Uh. And 120 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: we'll get into some more examples of flightless birds as 121 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: we go. Uh, but yeah, to be sure, we still 122 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: have some amazing flightless land birds with us today, and 123 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: some of them are are quite enormous. The largest, of course, 124 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: is the ostrich. There are two species remaining. There was 125 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: a third, the Asian ostrich, that went extinct roughly six 126 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: thousand years ago. Yeah. The two extant species are the 127 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 1: common ostrich and the Somali ostrich, and they're both native 128 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: to Africa. Yeah, and I sometimes I feel like we 129 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: sometimes over look how cool ostriches are. I find that 130 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: it's zoos they you know, for one thing, it's a 131 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: zoo habitat, and and you know it's it's so you're 132 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: seeing an ostrich in a fenced in area. But then 133 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: sometimes the ostrich is in there with a giraffe, which 134 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: seems particularly unfair because the giraffe, of course, is the 135 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: is the tallestum extant mammal that we have, And it 136 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: feels kind of like a dirty trick to showcase the 137 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: world's the world's tallest extant bird with the tallest mammal 138 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: which towers over it. Right, It's like I'm trying to 139 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: show off my muscles, but then you put me next 140 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: to a gorilla. Yeah. But but we have some other 141 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: wonderful examples of flightless birds uh elsewhere. For instance, we 142 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: have EMUs, which are very fascinating. You get a chance 143 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: to just look at an emu, just watch an emu 144 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: as it goes about its business. It's it's remarkable. The 145 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: castlewary is one of my favorites mine too. There's a 146 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: castle wary here at the Atlanta Zoo. Yes, Cecil, Cecil 147 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: the cast Wary, who we we've talked on the show 148 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: before with friend Jason Ward here in town about Cecil 149 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: the Cassowary. Who remember Jason telling us that it's dung 150 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: is very like fragrant and kind of smells of fruit. 151 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: Even though it is the I mean not to demonize animals, 152 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: but when you get up close to it, it is 153 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: a horrifying beast. Like it's beautiful. Its colors are beautiful. 154 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: It has the blue and the red and the black feathers. 155 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: It's a gorgeous animal. But also if you look at 156 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: its foot, it's foot looks like a puppet from a 157 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: monster movie. You know it is. It is just a 158 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: killing thing. It's got these claws and this scaly, scabby skin. Uh, 159 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: that's a tongue twister. But yeah, look at a cassowary 160 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: up close sometime if you just want to be terrified 161 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: and audit nature. Indeed, yeah, they they can. They can't 162 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: prove quite deadly if you know, the human comes into 163 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: close contact with them and there they begin engaging in 164 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: a defensive behavior. Oh yeah, don't try to look at 165 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: their feet up close if there is not a like 166 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: area between you. Yeah. Of course we have other flightless 167 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: birds who consider one of the more amazing ones. Of course, 168 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: it's the key we of New Zealand um, the nocturnal 169 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: ground bird. All of these birds are what we call rattites, 170 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: a diverse group of flightless birds that were widespread across 171 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: the scattered fragments of the supercontinent Gondwana uh and the 172 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 1: and their dominance is waned over time, certainly with the 173 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: rise of Homo sapiens. We still have all these various 174 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: examples that still remain today. Yeah, and you find you 175 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: find large flightless birds, well actually large and small flightless 176 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: birds everywhere from New Zealand to South America. You know. 177 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: Then that's without even getting into the the obvious example 178 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: of just other flightless birds. There's also the penguin of course, 179 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: but well, this raises the question why do we have 180 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: flightless birds all over the place like this? Well, Uh, 181 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: In the nineteen nineties there was a wonderfully titled theory 182 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: MOA's arc, which would assume that all of these ra 183 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: tides descended from a common ancestor. So, in other words, 184 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 1: the idea here is that a flighted ancestor became flightless 185 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: on god Dwana, and then as the supercontinent split, this 186 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: one flightless ancestor UH diverged into all these different flightless species. Okay, 187 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: so you get one instance of these birds descending from 188 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: an ancestor and becoming flightless, and then the flightless one 189 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: goes all over the place, and then there's continental drift 190 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: to supercontinent splits up, and the flightless descendants of that 191 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: one ancestor all go off into different places and evolve 192 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: in different directions, and they become everything from the ostrich 193 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: to the key we to the moa. Right. But one 194 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 1: of the issues with this, UH, this idea is that 195 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: this would mean we'd expect something we'd expect, say in 196 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: New Zealand, we'd expect the moa and the Kiwi to 197 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: be closely related to each other. We'd expect that any 198 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: any of these ratites that live close together would also 199 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: be closely related, but subsquent DNA studies have revealed that 200 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: this was not the case. Instead of MOA's ark, the 201 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: model seems to be one of numerous cases of flighted 202 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: to flightless evolution around the world. So again, convergent evolution. Uh. 203 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: This repeated instance of a flighted bird evolving into a 204 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: bird that doesn't fly, which seems so strange of a 205 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: of a choice for evolution to make. I mean not 206 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: to personify it too much, but but what is the 207 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: advantage there? I think we alluded to this earlier. One 208 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: of the main theories about this is that it's an 209 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: energy advantage. If a bird doesn't need to fly, then 210 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: it doesn't need to make huge pectoral muscles capable flapping 211 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: wings that can get it into the air. And if 212 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 1: it doesn't need to make those big muscles, it can 213 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: spend that energy on something else, or it can just 214 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: survive on less food. Yeah. Uh, And it can have 215 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: just like a smaller it can have less of a 216 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: basal metabolic rate. And we've we've talked on the show 217 00:11:55,559 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: pretty recently about birds having a pretty high BMR. So, so, yeah, 218 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: this is basically the reason why we see the rise 219 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: of these various flightless birds in you know, all corners 220 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: of the world really. But then of course a number 221 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: of them end up falling away, and of course we'll 222 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: get into the details of of of the fall of 223 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: the moa in these episodes. Uh, in the case of 224 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: the moa and in the case of the elephant bird, 225 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: it's it's the encountering human beings that did the trick. Yes, 226 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: once again, human beings seem to be a sort of 227 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: anomaly in the fossil record in the evolutionary story. Once 228 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: we enter the picture, things tend to go haywire. But 229 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: another question is coming back to what we were just 230 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: talking about, like the energy considerations in losing flight. So 231 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: it is clear that you can save a lot of 232 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 1: energy by not being a flying bird if you don't 233 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: need to fly, But in what case what a bird 234 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: not need to fly? Shouldn't flying always help a bird 235 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: to survive? Well, basically it comes down to, like like 236 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: we said earlier, the death of the dinosaurs creating these 237 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: these holes for these niches for it in the environment. 238 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: You need a place where I mean to to use 239 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: a very simple, even tacki metaphor here. For birds, they 240 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: need a place to land, uh, in a place it's 241 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: not already occupied by say a highly successful dinosaur or 242 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: highly highly successful mammal. And so there there are corners 243 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: of the world uh you know, other shards of Gondwana 244 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: where the the the idea of a kingdom of the 245 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: birds remained at least partially unchallenged by mammalian usurpers. Like 246 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: nothing came nothing was already there to keep the bird 247 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: from landing, and nothing came up to to erase it 248 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: from the ecosystem. Um. For instance, there's the island of Madagascar, 249 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: which enjoyed something like eighty eight million years of isolation, 250 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: during which it fostered various forms of lemur, as well 251 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: as the massive elephant bird uh, not only a rattite 252 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: but often considered the largest known rattite to ever walk 253 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: the earth. But then there's also far are flung New Zealand, 254 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: which enjoyed an amazing degree of freedom as well from 255 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: the mammalian revolution, well until roughly um c e with 256 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: the arrival of human beings. Now that's not to say 257 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: they were completely free of mammals. That believe they're too extinct. 258 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: Primitive mammals known only as the Saint Bathans mammal that 259 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: are present in the in the fossil record from the Miocene. Otherwise, 260 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: the only way for a mammal to get to New 261 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: Zealand was to fly there or to swim there. So 262 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: you'd have this huge island that's got birds on it, 263 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: but does not have any large mammalian predators. It doesn't 264 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: have any lions, it doesn't have any wolves, it doesn't 265 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: have any foxes anything for a bird to need to 266 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: fly and escape from. Yeah, so if you don't have 267 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: a predator you have to fly and escape from, why 268 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: even keep making wings? Exactly? You just you land and 269 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: you start filling those niches. There's no buffalo there, no 270 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: horses again, no wolves. And then the as far as 271 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: the other mammals, the ones that have swam there. I mean, 272 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about seals, sea lions, whales out in the 273 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: waters around New Zealand. And they they're they're they're not 274 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: gonna invade the forest anytime soon. Uh, they're doing just fine. 275 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: And then other than that, we have bats. Bats flew 276 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: to New Zealand where we do see you do see 277 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: an interest in case where where the bats that come 278 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: to New Zealand end up spending more time on the 279 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: ground than you see elsewhere in the world, particular the 280 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: New Zealand lesser short tailed bat, which spends a lot 281 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: of its time foraging on the forest floor crawling around, um, 282 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: basically taking on a far more terrestrial role than bats 283 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: employee elsewhere. Again, this would make sense as an evolutionary 284 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: adaptation if there's just not a lot of stuff to 285 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: worry about on the ground like there is everywhere else. Yeah, 286 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: Like we mentioned the kiwi earlier, Like the kiwi is 287 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: an example of a ground dwelling bird. Uh, you know, 288 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: it goes around at night, it eats things like worms, 289 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: but there's nothing there's nothing like a mole there. There 290 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: are no moles to fill that niche in the environment. Uh. 291 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: Therefore the kiwi is is taking that role on even 292 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: though it is a bird. Now you do see some 293 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: cases where reptiles or gastropods are also you know, filling 294 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: in these these niches in the environment in New Zealand, 295 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: But for the most part, the birds are the real 296 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: stars here. Um. We mentioned the kiwi and there are 297 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: there are numerous other examples of flightless birds in New Zealand. 298 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: There's a There are various extant species that we still find, 299 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: such as the South Island tacky heat and then there's 300 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: also a flightless bird known as the Weka. But the 301 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: most amazing examples are the nine now extinct species of moa, 302 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: including the giant moa that used to uh To to 303 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: exert their dominance over New Zealand. Well, maybe we should 304 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: take a break and then when we come back we 305 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: can talk about this giant bird. Alright, we're back, So 306 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: we just introduced the character of the moa. This I 307 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: guess we alluded to a little bit earlier. But this 308 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: giant flightless bird that used to inhabit New Zealand, that's right. Yeah, 309 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: there were nine different nine different species are known to exist. 310 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: There's the upland moa, the little bush moa, and I 311 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: have to stress the little bush moa was still one 312 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: point three meters or four point three ft tall, so 313 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: it's still the sizeable bird. Wait is it now? Is 314 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: it the little bush moa or the little bush moa? Uh? 315 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: The little bush moa sometimes just referred to as the 316 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: bush moa. I'm just trying to think. I mean, is 317 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: it like a bush moa that's little or is it 318 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: being compared to a little bush or something? Oh, I 319 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: think it basically lived in the bush bush mooa would 320 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 1: have would have lived more in the rainforest. So essentially 321 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: the moa is so successful. You have all you have 322 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: like nine different varieties and different parts of New Zealand, 323 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: different sizes. But the two largest word dinormous robustus which 324 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: means robust, strange bird and dinormous novels O Lindia. So 325 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: we're largely gonna be talking about those two because they 326 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: were the biggest. We're talking about moa that reached the 327 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: heights of three point six meters or twelve feet tall, 328 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: that's with the neck outstretched and there with with estimated 329 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: weights of two or five and ten pounds. So these 330 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: were these were sizeable critters. They looked rather like an 331 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: enormous emu. So if you've seen an emu in in person, 332 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: you have like a good starting point for imagining them. 333 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: Like a wide, kind of shaggy feathery body on long, 334 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: uh you know, lethal looking legs with these great claws 335 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: at the end and a long snaking neck you know, 336 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: almost like a like a like a like an elephant's 337 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: trunk that leads a two comparatively small head. Yes, and 338 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: the skeletons. It's almost like a comically small looking head 339 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: compared to the giganticness of its body. But so another 340 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: one thing I would wonder about, of course, is Okay, well, 341 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: we know it's probably flightless, but what does it do 342 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: with its wings? Does have a little a little like 343 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: t rex arm talons up there, or what's happening with 344 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: the wings? Well, that's that's typically what you expect, right. 345 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: Flightless birds typically have at least vestigial wings, a little 346 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: shrunken remnants of their long neglected flying limbs. Uh. Sometimes, 347 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: as with an ostrich, there's still some sort of a 348 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: use for these wings. The ostrich uses it's it's so 349 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: it's little wings there to stabilize them when they run 350 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: and to aid in courtship displays, even though there you know, 351 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: they do not produce flight at all. Right, Well, I 352 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: mean you can see, uh, some birds that are thought 353 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: to be flightless actually do kind of glide near to 354 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: the ground. Some like chickens, can use their wings to 355 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: you know, kind of glide around near the ground, right, 356 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: and be even failing that, like sometimes there's some purpose, 357 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: even if it's a display, right, And even if there's 358 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: not a purpose, you might expect to find, as with 359 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: other flightless birds, to find some vestigial remain of that limb, 360 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, like little bones or something. But the moa 361 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: doesn't even have vestigial wings. There are no little not 362 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: like even like shrunken bones that are left over. There 363 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: is no trace of their wings at all. They have 364 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: simply been erased through their evolution. That's creepy, It's yeah, 365 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: it's amazing, it's it's it's one of the very few 366 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: known creatures to possess only two limbs. The only other 367 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: creatures that I could run across that were in a 368 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: similar situation at all are the Mexican mole lizard and 369 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: the Serenada salamanders. Both of these are cases where creature 370 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: has lost its hind legs and retains its its front limbs. 371 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: But you won't find any mammals that are like this. 372 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: Even the hind legs of the great whales remain in 373 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: this digital form um. No, you find no other birds, 374 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: no dinosaurs, just these nine species of giant land birds, 375 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: even the t rex. So it's you know, famously small 376 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: um four limbs. So we've we've discussed the very theories 377 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: for why they kept even those those tiny limbs on 378 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: the show before. But even the t rex still has 379 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: little little arms. The moa has no arms, no, no 380 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: wings at all. It's just such a strange creature. The 381 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: other day, I was imagining it as a kind of 382 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: biological unic cycle. Yeah, it's it's so weird. It's it's 383 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: like some of the illustrations look oddly huggable, but it 384 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: has no arms, it has no wings, like there's nothing. 385 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: I kept thinking, like, why does this? Why is this 386 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: amaze me? So? And I think part of it is 387 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: that when we think about animals. So I've noticed when 388 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: when children think about animals, they often embody the animal. 389 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: You know, they have to act like the animal, and 390 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: you know, pandomimement and so forth is a fascinating tendency. 391 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: By the way, why do they naturally do that? But 392 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: I think even if we're not like actually moving our 393 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: bodies around, when we look at animal, there's part of 394 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: us that like puts ourselves in its body, and we 395 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: imagine our limbs as its slims. And this creature has 396 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: has no, uh, nothing like arms at all. So if 397 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: you're you're trying to get this in your head, just 398 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: you know, stop. If you have a chance, look up 399 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: some images of the moa, of its skeletal remains, and 400 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: also reconstructions of what it would have looked like, and 401 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,719 Speaker 1: just focus on the fact that it has no vestigial wings. 402 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: It's just so wonderfully weird. Now. I know you said 403 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: it it looks huggable, and I sort of agree, but 404 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: I do want to stress if they actually recreate these 405 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: things and bring them back from extinction, do not try 406 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: to hug them. No. No, it's a very bad idea. Right. Yeah, 407 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: we discussed how potentially lethal the castle areas, and the 408 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: same can be said of the ostrich So I think 409 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 1: without a doubt the moa could do some serious damage 410 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: or still around to kick you. Oh and by the way, 411 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:49,719 Speaker 1: if you if you want to look up some images 412 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: of the moa or just get additional information about them, 413 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 1: I highly recommend checking out New Zealand Birds Online, created 414 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 1: by ornithologist Colin ms kelly. It's a great Uh, it's 415 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: it's great. It's one of the sources we use for 416 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: these three episodes. Uh, and you'll find you find it 417 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: an in z birds online dot org dot in z 418 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: and if you go to the search bar and you 419 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: type in moa, you'll get pictures of all nine varieties. 420 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: Illustrations of all nine varieties of moa. Now, one thing 421 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: that's kind of interesting about the moa is we often 422 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: tend to think, okay, where there are large land dwelling animals, 423 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: they often tend to be few in number. Right but 424 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: the but for a long time, New Zealand was kind 425 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: of the land of the moa, right Yeah, Yeah, the 426 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: moa where New Zealand's dominant land vertebrates and dominant herbivores. 427 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: So they basically went went around consuming twigs, leaves, flowers, seeds, 428 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: and berries from a wide variety of trees, shrubs, and vines. 429 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: They also ate um, mushrooms, which we'll get into a 430 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: little later. Uh. They were able to process a highly 431 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: fibrous diet due in part to large gizzard stones and 432 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: tough beak, so that those gizzard stones were involved in 433 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: some great curses probably so excellent magical items. Um. But yeah, 434 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: so they're they're basically every again, nine different varieties, like 435 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: basically adapting over time to the different environments of New Zealand. 436 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: And uh, they laid enormous eggs and are suspected to 437 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: have produced I think one or two per breeding season, 438 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: and the incubation period was likely longer than two months. 439 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: So big birds, big eggs, um more of a time 440 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: investment in a limited number of eggs, and the male 441 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: likely incubated the eggs, as this is what is seen 442 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: in extent ratites. I don't think I knew that. Yeah. Now, 443 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: just because it was the dominant land organism doesn't mean 444 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: it was completely unopposed that it was off the predation 445 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: of hook because again, this is the world of birds, 446 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: and and when you think of birds, you probably think 447 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: of a number of different flesh eating varieties. And so 448 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: the moa too had to contend with a my at 449 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: avian predator, and that predator is the largest eagle to 450 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: ever live. Right, So at this point, I want to 451 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: briefly come to one of our favorite subjects, which is monsters. 452 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: Why are there so many monster movies about giant spiders 453 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: but not about giant lions? Uh, with a lion is 454 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: already large enough, right, yeah, exactly. So I've got a 455 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: hypothesis here. I think humans, whether through instinct or learning 456 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: or combination, of both do a lot of intuitive phylogenetic 457 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: sorting of predatory threat imagery. So the idea of a 458 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: large cat that kills and eats you is in fact terrifying, 459 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: but it's not especially unusual in the terms we've talked 460 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: about on the show before, in the terms of cognitive 461 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: science of religion, it's not even minimally counterintuitive. It's just 462 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: sort of a fact of nature. So it would be 463 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: terrifying if you were really faced with it. But it's 464 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: also not a particularly arresting image in the memory, and 465 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: that it doesn't stand out. I mean, I'm sure it 466 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: would be a memory if it actually happened you, but 467 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,479 Speaker 1: probably not in terms of fictional storytelling. Compared to something 468 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: like a giant spider, A large man eating spider is 469 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: definitely counterintuitive. It's not something found in nature, and because 470 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: the image is unusual, it sticks in the mind and 471 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: captivates our fear. And I have to think about this 472 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: for a while. Like the idea of a human being 473 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: eaten by an invertebrate like an insect or an arachnid 474 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: not only feels scary, it feels perverse. It violates the 475 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,479 Speaker 1: natural order. In biblical terms, I think this is what 476 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: would be called an abomination, And so I think our 477 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: brains do this kind of unconscious threat math a lot. 478 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: We sort potential threats from animals or organisms more generally 479 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: by morphology or body shape, which is a simple way 480 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: of sorting them along evolutionary relationships. Large carnivorous mammal shapes 481 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: are natural predators. They are genuinely threatening in reality, but 482 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: less captivating of the terrified imagination. And I think the 483 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: same goes for large reptilian shapes like crocodiles or sharks 484 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: or whatever. But here's another phylogenetic or morphological branch of 485 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: potential threats. How about birds. I think we intuitively sort 486 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: birds into the non predator pile, right, Like we prey 487 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: on birds, they don't prey on us, right, Yeah, for 488 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: the most part. I mean, now, to come back to 489 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: the cassawary and the ostrich Like, clearly, these are both 490 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: potentially dangerous animals that they're encountered in the wild, but 491 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: they are you know, they're kind of exceptions from the rule. 492 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: They are a rather different rate of bird than the 493 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: the sort of bird that most of us are going 494 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: to encounter on a daily basis, right, And they wouldn't 495 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: be trying to hunt us. Like, if we encountered one, 496 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: you know, a cassowary in the wild and it was 497 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 1: being aggressive, that would probably be it. You know, from 498 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: its point of view, it's acting in defense. Right now, 499 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: if we were to travel in time back to the 500 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: age of the terror birds and the demon ducks, and 501 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: that would be a little would be a different scenario. Yeah, 502 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: but I would say that that age might go a lot, 503 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: it might come a lot more recently into his story. 504 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: Then we would think, uh so, maybe this, this intuitive 505 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: sorting about birds is one of the main reasons movies 506 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 1: that use dinosaurs as monsters resist putting feathers on them, right, 507 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: even though many predatory dinosaurs probably had feathers, we associate 508 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: feathers with birds, and birds are generally not thought of 509 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: as scary, right, Yeah, when, for instance, when let's think 510 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: of all the times feathers are used for comedic effect, right, 511 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: like a feather, pillow, feathers, uh, you know, stuck to 512 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: a person after you know, something sticky has has has 513 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: gotten on them, that sort of thing. Yeah, And so 514 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: there's that. But then on the other hand, and pretty 515 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: much in exactly the opposite direction, of what I just said, 516 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: we want to think again about the counterintuitive thing. A 517 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: lot of times monsters are great because they violate these categories. 518 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: You know, no spider actually preys on us in the wild, 519 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: but we love the giant killer spider idea that sticks 520 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: in the memory. There are a lot of stories about it, 521 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: and there are stories of giant predatory birds that do 522 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: show up in monster mythology all around the world. There's 523 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: the Rock, the cocketry Ice, the winged on Zoo from 524 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: Sumerian and Babylonian myth Like do you remember how in 525 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: Bander Snatch it says that the demon packs is the 526 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: thief of destiny. The humanoid bird monster on Zoo is 527 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: the original thief of destiny. Do you know about the story? 528 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: So in this there's this ancient Accadian epic where on 529 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: Zoo the bird, the humanoid bird monster steals something called 530 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: the Tablet of Destiny from the King of the Gods. 531 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: And the Tablet of Destiny is kind of like this 532 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: great law book that's sort of a like the permanent 533 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: record of everybody. It's got like all of their you know, 534 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: the I don't know, all their lawbreaking or whatever written 535 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: down in it. And possessing this document, this tablet gives 536 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: you the power to rule the world. And so when 537 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: on Zoo the bird monster steals it, he has to 538 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: be destroyed, I think by Marduk. Well that's what Marduk's for, right, 539 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: It says that's pretty much his job. I mean Marduke. 540 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: It's funny. Marduk is the hero of the story. But 541 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: in in my feeling, mar Duke's also. He's often kind 542 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: of the party pooper, Like there's a great monster getting 543 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: up to no good and then mar Duke comes in 544 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: and just puts a lid on everything. Yeah, he's the 545 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: humanoid figure that that that gets rid of the interesting characters. 546 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: He's like the assistant principle that comes in and stops 547 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: the party. Um. But so I think the bird as 548 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: man eater story it does pass the minimally counterintuitive test 549 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: for mythological resilience. If a giant hawk could swoop down 550 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: from the sky and bite your head off, that image 551 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: that makes a good story that would stick in your memory. Um. So, 552 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how exactly that goes in conflict with 553 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: the fact that, like people won't put feathers on dinosaurs 554 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: and movies because they're not scary enough. Maybe maybe these 555 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: things two things are just both true and in competition 556 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: with each other. Like the feathered monster has a cognitive 557 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: advantage because it's more counterintuitive, stands out in memory, but 558 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: the scaly monster has a cognitive advantage because it's physical 559 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: features are more naturally prone to activate our threat responses. 560 00:30:58,080 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: I don't know what you think is going on there, 561 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: but I, as we we love to think about monsters, 562 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: and I think that tension is interesting. Yeah, and and 563 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: and again we're talking about the idea of monstrous birds here, 564 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: not just birds perceived as a threat because certainly there 565 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: are people that are afraid of birds or a little 566 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: weeked out by birds when they're close to them. Certainly 567 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: Hitchcock's the Birds managed to strike a nerve with people. 568 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, the idea of a a bird being large 569 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: enough to do not just like pester you, or to 570 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: h or two certainly in a large number attack you, 571 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: but like a single handedly take you out and consume you, 572 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: to prey on you, to to hunt you as if 573 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: you were its dinner. Yeah. Now I want to talk 574 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: for a moment about a very important fossil in physical anthropology, 575 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: which is a fossil skull that is between two and 576 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: three million years old. I think last time I saw 577 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: the dating it was like two point eight million years old. 578 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: They thought it was unearthed from a quarry in South 579 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: Africa in nineteen four in a place called Tongue And 580 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: it is the skull of a young hominid now known 581 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: to be from the extinct human relative Australian Epithecus africanus. 582 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: And note that this is a different species from australia 583 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: Epithecus afarensis, which is the species to which the famous 584 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: lucy skeleton belonged. Uh So this Africanus skull is known 585 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: as the Tongue Child. And evidence indicates that this hominid 586 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: died when it was about three years old. And we 587 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: actually have a lot of evidence now indicating exactly what 588 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: happened when it died, how its death came about. Just warning, 589 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: this is a kind of sad and grizzly story, but 590 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: also biologically fascinating. So the Tongue Child skull has puncture 591 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: marks in the bone at the bottom of the eye sockets. 592 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: And these puncture marks are similar to the marks made 593 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: on other mammals like monkeys when eagles attack them. Today. 594 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: Also the skull was found in a soil bed, along 595 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: with eggshell fragments, as well as the bones of many 596 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: other small animals, including rodent lizards, juvenile antelopes, and baboons, 597 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: and a lot of these other bones also show damage 598 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: that looks like it could have been caused by the 599 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: beaks and talents of a large eagle. The South African 600 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: paleontologist Lee Burger has argued that it was an eagle 601 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: that killed this child. He argued for the eagle predation hypothesis, 602 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: for example, in in a short communication I was reading 603 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: to the journal the American Journal of Physical Anthropology in 604 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: two thousands six, writing that quote re examination of the 605 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: tongue juvenile hominin specimen the type specimen of Australia Epithecus 606 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: africanus reveals previously undescribed damage to the orbital floors that 607 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: is nearly identical to that scene in the crania of 608 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: monkeys preyed upon by crowned hawk eagles, and Burger argued 609 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: that this evidence, along with the strange collection of other 610 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: animal bones at the side of the tongue child's discovery quote, 611 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: strongly supports the hypothesis that a bird of prey was 612 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: an accumulating agent at tongue, and that the tongue child 613 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: itself was a victim of a bird of prey. I 614 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: think this is an example of how scientific writing so 615 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: often has a way of stating things that is like 616 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: facially abstract, bordering on euphemistic, but so much so that 617 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: it actually sounds more horrifying. So this bird of prey 618 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: millions of years ago was not a bone collector, but 619 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: an accumulating agent. Well, that makes it look that sounds 620 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: like it was working for some dark other force. Right. Yeah. Now, 621 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: if this hypothesis about the town child is correct, uh, 622 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: and from what I read, I think it probably is. Uh. 623 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: We don't know for sure exactly what kind of bird 624 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: killed the child, but the paper I was just quoting 625 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: from draws attention to the similarities between the marks on 626 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: the fossil skull and the wounds left by a modern 627 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: bird of prey. It still exists today, called the crowned 628 00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: hawk eagle or stefan Ouida's coronatus, also just own as 629 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: the crowned eagle. This is a truly frightening and magnificent bird. 630 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: So it lives throughout central, southern and eastern Africa, mostly 631 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: inhabiting like mountains and forests. Rainforest places with tall trees 632 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: also sometimes found in the savannahs. These eagles can weigh 633 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: up to ten pounds or about five kilograms, with a 634 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: wingspan of up to six feet or about a hundred 635 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,760 Speaker 1: and eighty centimeters. They're large, they're not the largest eagle. 636 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: The females are generally larger than the males, and the 637 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: crowned eagle gets its name from a crest of feathers 638 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: on the head. Sometimes it's got feathers sticking straight up, 639 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: but sometimes it looks just like a bulging of the 640 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: feathers towards the back of the head and looks a 641 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: little bit like Gary Oldman's weird vampire bun head from 642 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: the Francis Ford Coppola Dracula. It does really yeah, d 643 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: d you see what I'm saying? And plus the spirit 644 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: of of the two are closely linked here. Yes, I 645 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,439 Speaker 1: imagine this eagle also loves the children of the night 646 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: because life Dracula. This bird is an astonishingly strong hunter. 647 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: They've been known to kill prey more than four times 648 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,479 Speaker 1: their size. And I think this is this is key too, 649 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: because certainly, even in an urban environment like in Atlanta, 650 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: we see vultures and hawks fairly common. Hawks especially, you 651 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: see them around a lot because there's a lot of 652 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: a lot of creatures for them to prey on. We 653 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: went into the the urban advantages of the hawk in 654 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: our one of our previous episodes, Oh Yeah, we talked 655 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: with Jason Warred about the about the peregrine falcon and 656 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: it's urban hunting methods where it will sit up on 657 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: top of a building and wait for its prey birds 658 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: to fly underneath, and then it die of bombs them 659 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: from above. But generally you think about a bird like 660 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 1: this grabbing a bird of this nature, grabbing something like 661 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 1: maybe a salmon, maybe it grabs a squirrel, maybe maybe 662 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: it even gets a small dog, But you don't think 663 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,399 Speaker 1: about them grabbing something four times their size. Right now, 664 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: if they grab something four times their size, they're not 665 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: going to be able to carry it away, but they 666 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,879 Speaker 1: can totally kill this thing and either eat it where 667 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: it falls or take it apart and take pieces with them. 668 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: So when attacking large prey, the predatory strategy of the 669 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: crowned eagle often involves it'll it'll involve swooping down from 670 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 1: above and then using their meaty legs and fearsome hind 671 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: talents to break the prey animals spine when they make contact. Uh. 672 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 1: They hunt a diverse range of prey, including monkeys, antelopes, 673 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: and other small mammals and lizards. Uh. And they've, like 674 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: I was saying, two basically feasting strategies. Once they've got 675 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: a prey animal dead, if it's small enough, they'll try 676 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: to carry it with them up to a safe tree 677 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: top to eat at their leisure. If the prey is 678 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,919 Speaker 1: too large to carry, they will either eat it where 679 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,720 Speaker 1: they have killed it, or sometimes they'll they'll they'll tear 680 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: you know, chunks of it off. They'll tear off ahead 681 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: or tear off an arm or something and take it 682 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: away with them one piece at a time. Another interesting 683 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: fact about them the crowned hawk eagle sometimes uh. Well, 684 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 1: so they generally lay one or two eggs nest brood, 685 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 1: and if there are two eggs, when the eggs hatch, 686 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: the larger of the two chicks usually kills its sibling. 687 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: The parents are known to guard their newborn chicks very ferociously. 688 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: You know, they violently repel encroaching animals. And so you 689 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: might have a question, well, would these powerful hunters that 690 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: can kill animals much larger than themselves, would they be 691 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: able to attack humans today? Uh? Possibly, but if so, 692 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: it is rare. I don't want to, you know, get 693 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: you in the idea that you should be afraid of 694 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: or demonize these birds. But there are a few accounts 695 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: of crowned eagles attacking children. The accounts are mostly older. 696 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: It was kind of hard for me to tell how 697 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: much stock we should put in them. But such a 698 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 1: claim of crowned eagle attacks on humans does not at 699 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,320 Speaker 1: all seem to be unheard of, and they do regularly 700 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: attack monkeys, which of course are shaped a lot like us, 701 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: and small human children would be within the size range 702 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: of their prey. Remember, they can attack prey more than 703 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: four times their size, so they can attack animals that 704 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: are maybe like forty five pounds, or again be in 705 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: awe of their predatory strings. I don't mean to demonize 706 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: these animals because I know their habitats are threatened now 707 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: and their numbers are declining. And but in general, a 708 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: smile child is likely to to flip certain switches in 709 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: a in a sizeable predator that might normally not not 710 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: switch on when they see a fully grown human. Oh well, yeah, 711 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever looked up those videos 712 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: on the internet of small children against the glass and 713 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: like lion enclosures at a zoo. Oh, I mean I've 714 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 1: I've taken my son when he was smaller. I remember 715 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: taking him to uh some sort of a zoo like 716 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: uh place somewhere in Arizona. I think maybe it was 717 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: Arizona even But but when we were there, it's like 718 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: there was a one part. We're walking out. There were 719 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: these cages and they had some large predatory cats, and 720 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: you can just see them like there's a change in 721 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: the way they are viewing their surroundings. There's a change 722 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: in their body language. You can you can tell that 723 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: they're you know, even if they're not actively hunting your child, 724 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: they're reacting to it as if it is potential food. Yes, 725 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: I mean the same way that the human instinct is 726 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: activated by a small child. You know, most adult humans 727 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: would see a small child and want to say, is 728 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 1: that child okay? You know you want to take care 729 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 1: of them delicious. Yes, the looks very small, very weak, 730 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: easy easy kill. Not to shame any of these predators, 731 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: that's just that's just the coating, that's the basic way 732 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: of the tooth and claw. They're right. So you've got 733 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 1: these claims of modern eagle attacks on on human children. 734 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 1: But if these claims are generally correct, even then it 735 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: does appear to be a kind of unusual thing to happen, 736 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: you know, something that just happens here. And there was 737 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 1: there ever a predatory bird that would have had humans 738 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: more firmly within its prey buffet, but you know, even larger, 739 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: even more diverse in the kinds of prey it would 740 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: seek out. And that brings us back to New Zealand 741 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: and the age of the Moa, and the moe is 742 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: primary enemy. It's it's primary predator, the has eagle. So 743 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: the Maori people of New Zealand have had legends of 744 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: gigantic birds. Apparently there are several different legends of gigantic 745 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: birds that have been linked to somewhat too real bird species. 746 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: The two different legendary bird monsters that I was reading 747 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: about from the Maori where the ta Hokioi or the Puakai. 748 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: But there may be other legends that sort of fit 749 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: into this mix as well. Right, and uh, and in 750 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: real quick I want to again, remind everybody that the 751 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: Maori came to New Zealand less than a thousand years ago. 752 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: So we're talking um roughly CEU. We'll we'll get more 753 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: into into the history of the Maori and they're they're 754 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: coming to New Zealand and their eventual interaction with other 755 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: human beings uh in our in our second episode. But 756 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,959 Speaker 1: just remind everybody about the time frame we're talking here. 757 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: So this this giant bird monster of Maori legend. It's 758 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,319 Speaker 1: a huge bird with black and white feathers. It's got 759 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,280 Speaker 1: a red crest and yellow green coloring on the tips 760 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: of its wings. It was believed in some legends to 761 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: have raised the hawk to the heavens, and was known 762 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: in other some legends as a man eater. It's not 763 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: only a feature of Maori oral tradition, but it's it's 764 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 1: terrifying frame appears in archaic rock carvings of the area, 765 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 1: and many paleontologists now believe that the that this animal, 766 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: the ta Hokioi or the Puakai, is not purely fictional 767 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: mythical as a monster like the on Zoo. It may 768 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: be the cultural memory of this real giant predatory bird 769 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 1: of New Zealand known as the Host's eagle or Harpagrnus mori, 770 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: which again would have been the predator that preyed on 771 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 1: the moa because again less than a thousand years ago 772 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: when the Maori arrived, when the archaic mawory arrived in 773 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 1: New Zealand, they would have encountered uh the nine species 774 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: of moa. They would have encountered hosts eagle in its 775 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: predation of the moa. Like all this was the world, 776 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: this unique environment was in full swing when they first arrived. Yeah, 777 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: hosts eagle was a beast. I think if we saw 778 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: it we would be in awe It could way up 779 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 1: to fifteen kilograms, which is about thirty three pounds. The 780 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: female might have had a wingspan of up to three 781 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: meters or almost ten feet. Like other birds of prey, 782 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: often the female was larger than the male. Remember that 783 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,840 Speaker 1: the most powerful predatory bird in the world today not 784 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,240 Speaker 1: the largest, but the most powerful hunter, the crowned eagle, 785 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: weighs up to only about ten pounds or about five kilograms. 786 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: It's like three times bigger, and with their size and 787 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 1: hunting power, the Hosts eagle could and did regularly take 788 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: down moa as prey, And to think about how amazing 789 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,440 Speaker 1: this is given the size of the moa. What were 790 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: we saying about the size of the moa earlier? Oh, 791 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 1: we talked about ten to twelve feet with their with 792 00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: their head stretched out. I mean even the even the 793 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 1: bush moa was like four and a half feet tall, 794 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 1: you know likens, Yeah, the little bushma. Yeah, I'm sure 795 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: they were. They were really at a loss here. So 796 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: a predatory encounter might have involved waiting at say a 797 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,319 Speaker 1: tree top near a water source, and then waiting for 798 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: a moa to come out and take a drink, and 799 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: the hosts eagle could then swoop down at the moa 800 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: at eighty kilometers per hour about fifty miles per hour. 801 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 1: And again, think of something that weighs forty pounds hitting 802 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,279 Speaker 1: you at about fifty miles per hour. Some forensic analysis 803 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 1: of the bones of the hoste eagle, I know there 804 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: was some analysis done through cat scans and things. Uh, 805 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: this shows that the eagle's body was by design able 806 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: to absorb shocks from high impact speed. Um So at 807 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 1: the impact, the predator comes in, talents out and it 808 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 1: has talents that could penetrate bone. So after killing the moa, 809 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,720 Speaker 1: or the other large prey bird. The eagle could usually 810 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 1: take its time eating the kill in the spot because 811 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: they were not large mammalian predators to worry about coming along. 812 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: Because this is New Zealand, Yeah, yeah, I've I've also 813 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,960 Speaker 1: heard it. Heard it described that the talents of Hastie 814 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,960 Speaker 1: eagle were about the size of a tiger's clause that's 815 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: how big they were. Yes, So I was reading an 816 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: article in The Independent that interviewed Paul Scofield, curator of 817 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,879 Speaker 1: vertebrate zoology at the Canterbury Museum. This was in two 818 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: thousand nine and Scofield is also the author of one 819 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,759 Speaker 1: of the papers that was doing the forensic analysis of 820 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 1: the hosteagle skeleton. And also, by the way, the Canterbury 821 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: Museum is the same place where Alan Curnow saw the 822 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 1: most skeleton that he writes the poem about. But so 823 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,279 Speaker 1: Schofield says, quote, it was certainly capable of swooping down 824 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,600 Speaker 1: and taking a child. They had the ability to not 825 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 1: only strike with their talents, but to close the talents 826 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 1: and put them through quite solid objects such as a pelvis. 827 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 1: It was designed as a killing machine, so think about 828 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 1: so it comes in with the clause extended can hit 829 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: you at high speed with amazing force and then latch 830 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 1: on with the clause to cut through flesh. And this 831 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: would of course leave you bleeding and all of that. 832 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: And Schofield said, hass eagle wasn't just the equivalent of 833 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:11,919 Speaker 1: a giant predatory bird, it was the equivalent of a lion. Wow, yeah, 834 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: a lion of the air. Again, it's just a it's 835 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,280 Speaker 1: like an order of magnitude beyond any kind of flying 836 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: predatory bird that we we've become accustomed to in our 837 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,319 Speaker 1: world today. Yeah, I mean, I guess I think like 838 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 1: a like a griffin, you know, like this, this is 839 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: a flying it's like a flying big cat if a 840 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 1: leopard could fly. So again, the Maori arrived, they encountered 841 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: this world, and uh, you know, and we'll discuss the 842 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,359 Speaker 1: details of this later, but basically the moment would last 843 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: scarcely more than a century after that they were they 844 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: were rather swiftly eradicated by human beings, and therefore hass eagle, 845 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: since it depended on the moment for food, it went 846 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,439 Speaker 1: away as well. But there would have been time there, 847 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,759 Speaker 1: so there was there was There was a period of 848 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,279 Speaker 1: time and Mallory history, for their for the archaic Mallory 849 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 1: and for the the moa hunting Mallory. For for them 850 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,160 Speaker 1: to have their children picked off by this terrifying bird, 851 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 1: this terrifying predator of the sky. It's hard to imagine, 852 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,240 Speaker 1: but I just did. We're terrifying predators of the land 853 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 1: are bad enough when they can come from above. I 854 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:18,640 Speaker 1: don't know what that just seems like that would that 855 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:23,240 Speaker 1: would entail a whole reordering of the way you view, 856 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, danger and safety in the world, because you 857 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,799 Speaker 1: generally think the sky at least is safe. I don't 858 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,320 Speaker 1: need to look that way. All right, We're going to 859 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,640 Speaker 1: take a quick break, but we'll be right back and 860 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:42,279 Speaker 1: for more discussions of the mighty moa. Thank alright, we're back. 861 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 1: So one question that comes up. We're imagining this this 862 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:50,840 Speaker 1: clash between these enormous moa and this enormous eagle, clash 863 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,759 Speaker 1: of the giant birds, and so I was wondering, well, 864 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,440 Speaker 1: how does how would a giant moa defend itself? Like, 865 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,160 Speaker 1: what kind of fight could it put up? So we 866 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,239 Speaker 1: already mentioned if we look to extent to ratites, we 867 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 1: looked to the Austrians, we looked to the castle Wary, 868 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,799 Speaker 1: we see excellent examples of just how ferocious a kick 869 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,160 Speaker 1: from one of these creatures would be. But then you 870 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: start imagine. So if you're imagining, say, say an unarmed 871 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,439 Speaker 1: human coming up and trying to start start a fight 872 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,439 Speaker 1: with say an Austria's or castlewary or perhaps a moa, 873 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: that's not a good idea. You can imagine how that's 874 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,319 Speaker 1: gonna go kick wise, um, you know, or or any 875 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 1: type of land predator trying to mess with one of 876 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,360 Speaker 1: these these creatures. But if something is coming from above 877 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,799 Speaker 1: like it does seem, and I couldn't find a lot 878 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 1: of sources on this about like what the MOA's defensive 879 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: capabilities would have would have been. But if it, certainly, 880 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 1: if it had trouble kicking that high, what could it 881 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 1: do if something was attacking its back, you know, it 882 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,160 Speaker 1: could it could pack at it. It could use its 883 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,320 Speaker 1: beak certainly, Um maybe and this is just me guessing, 884 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: I'm thinking maybe it could whip it with its neck 885 00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: a little bit. That is that is the strategy we 886 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,960 Speaker 1: see with giraffes. You know, there's there's footage of giraffes 887 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,360 Speaker 1: fighting each other with using their necks as these broad 888 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 1: whips and certainly the cat. Certainly the MOA's neck was 889 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,080 Speaker 1: was long and tough, but I don't know if it 890 00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:16,000 Speaker 1: could actually have used it effectively, certainly against host eagle, 891 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,719 Speaker 1: which again is this this lion of the sky attacking 892 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,280 Speaker 1: it with enormous talents and perhaps making pretty short work 893 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: of it if it got the drop. Well, yeah, if 894 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 1: you're coming out a large bird like the moa from below, 895 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,160 Speaker 1: I mean obviously that that's not the place you want 896 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:31,960 Speaker 1: to be. But what does it do on its back? 897 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:33,919 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like the perfect place to pray 898 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,440 Speaker 1: on it. You can make wounds on the back of 899 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,640 Speaker 1: a large bird like this. That is, it's exposed, and 900 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, if you could get the talents in there 901 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:43,759 Speaker 1: and get out, even if you don't break its back 902 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,320 Speaker 1: when you first hit. Uh, probably just like what bleeds 903 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,919 Speaker 1: to death, it's it's there and drowns in its own blood. Yeah. 904 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: So it seems like a case where the moa was 905 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:57,440 Speaker 1: just particularly vulnerable to hass Egel. But at the same time, 906 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,720 Speaker 1: it means hoss Eagle was particularly depended upon the moa 907 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 1: like they were they were locked in this. In this 908 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,360 Speaker 1: you can say eternal struggle. I guess you want to 909 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,840 Speaker 1: get be dramatic about it, but really an eternal balance 910 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:14,080 Speaker 1: until until this new force, this new terror, came to 911 00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:19,480 Speaker 1: unbalance that that equation. Yeah, well it's um I mean, 912 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,279 Speaker 1: it's weird to think about because, like when you see 913 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: a predator chasing prey in nature, I think naturally most 914 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,400 Speaker 1: of our sympathies are with the prey animal, and that 915 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,120 Speaker 1: makes sense. Like you know, if you were to see 916 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: one person trying to hurt another person, your sympathies are 917 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,120 Speaker 1: with the victim. But in in nature, you could think 918 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:37,879 Speaker 1: about it as a as a kind of balanced thing 919 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 1: because the predator is also trying It's just trying to survive. 920 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 1: It is fighting starvation every every day, in the same 921 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,399 Speaker 1: way that the prey animal is fighting the predator that's 922 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,719 Speaker 1: trying to kill it. Right, and again we already mentioned 923 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 1: We'll get into some of the genetic data on this 924 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,799 Speaker 1: in the next episode, but the MoMA was highly successful 925 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,880 Speaker 1: and it was spread all over New Zealand, so you know, 926 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,360 Speaker 1: it was a situation where it could support a dominant 927 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: predator like this. Their numbers were such that the predator 928 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,440 Speaker 1: was ultimately playing an important role in supporting a healthy 929 00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,839 Speaker 1: moa population. Yeah, totally. I mean, one thing I've read 930 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,799 Speaker 1: is that the hostagel probably would have been very few 931 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,160 Speaker 1: in number, right, like most apex predators, right, you know, 932 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:23,080 Speaker 1: they tend to be their needs to be many fewer 933 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,200 Speaker 1: of them than there are of the prey animals or 934 00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:29,000 Speaker 1: the or the ecosystem can't sustain itself. Now, it's it's 935 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,480 Speaker 1: easy to grasp why the extinction of the moa came 936 00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,200 Speaker 1: hand in hand with the extinction of of the great 937 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 1: hass eagle. But extinction impacts a wide variety of species. 938 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,560 Speaker 1: And when you have such an established creature as the 939 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,880 Speaker 1: nine moa species, you have a lot of organisms that 940 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,440 Speaker 1: have come to depend upon them. So you know, you're 941 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:52,600 Speaker 1: talking about bacteria, parasites, fist gavengers, predators, but also whatever 942 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,920 Speaker 1: plants and fungi have come to depend on their feeding 943 00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,760 Speaker 1: habits to propagate. And so I ran across an interesting 944 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,480 Speaker 1: study that got into some of this. In two thousand eighteen, 945 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,920 Speaker 1: researchers from the University of Adelaide's Australian Center for Ancient 946 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,759 Speaker 1: DNA or a c a D published a study in 947 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,080 Speaker 1: the journal the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 948 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,960 Speaker 1: about the contents of dried dung from four varieties of 949 00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,720 Speaker 1: giant moa. Thank god, we're getting into some copper lights. Yeah, 950 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: I mean, can you can learn a lot from copper 951 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,719 Speaker 1: copper lights. You know, they're highly useful and uncovering the 952 00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 1: especially in this case, the genetic records of diet, pathogens, 953 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,799 Speaker 1: and even the behavior of the creatures in question. So 954 00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:38,040 Speaker 1: the researchers here found that the moa consumed a wide 955 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,800 Speaker 1: variety of mushrooms and fungi, including species that are critical 956 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,880 Speaker 1: for New Zealand's beach for us, and they were they 957 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,800 Speaker 1: were very interested. The researchers were very interested in exploring 958 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:54,040 Speaker 1: the prior but unproven hypothesis that many New Zealand fungi 959 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 1: with bright colored fruiting bodies are adapted for dispersal by 960 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,880 Speaker 1: native ground dwelling birds. Now this couldn't really be tested 961 00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,080 Speaker 1: because all the moa are extinct, But but this gave 962 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:07,840 Speaker 1: them a chance to sort of to explore it a 963 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:12,800 Speaker 1: little bit, right. So, in general, they found confirmation regarding 964 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,080 Speaker 1: diet in a few moa species. So they found that 965 00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,720 Speaker 1: the little bush moa, for instance, which would have resided 966 00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:24,240 Speaker 1: in the rainforest fed mostly on fibrous forest vegetation. Upland 967 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:30,000 Speaker 1: moa and giant moa were widespread dietary generalist, with upland 968 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 1: moa populating the higher altitudes, so they would have eaten, 969 00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, a wider variety of things. But the mushroom 970 00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:39,680 Speaker 1: contents of the moa dung uh certainly contained plant symbiotic 971 00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:44,040 Speaker 1: fungi that the wide ranging moa would have spread as 972 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:49,440 Speaker 1: they ranged, grazed and pooped. According to lead author Alex Boast, 973 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:55,520 Speaker 1: then PhD student at Land Cara Research quote, worryingly introduced 974 00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:59,719 Speaker 1: mammals which consume these mushrooms don't appear to produce fertile spores. 975 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,000 Speaker 1: So this critical ecosystem function of the giant birds has 976 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:08,120 Speaker 1: been lost, with serious implications for the long term health 977 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,200 Speaker 1: of New Zealand's beach for us, So what does that 978 00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,760 Speaker 1: mean that, um, the mushrooms passing through the digestive system 979 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,080 Speaker 1: of the birds would have still been reproductively viable, but 980 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:23,040 Speaker 1: going through mammal digestive systems, they're not right. The mammals 981 00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,520 Speaker 1: that have come in to fill that ecological niche that 982 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,920 Speaker 1: was left by the by the now extinct moa like 983 00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,560 Speaker 1: there they'll eat the same mushrooms. Perhaps they'll even spread them, 984 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,839 Speaker 1: uh even you know, travel you know, to decent distances. 985 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,520 Speaker 1: But the spores they leave behind are not viable. They're 986 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,120 Speaker 1: not able to actually uh fulfill the role that the 987 00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 1: moa fulfilled in spreading those spores. And again, those the 988 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 1: mushrooms uh have this crucial relationship with with the trees 989 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,600 Speaker 1: of the beach forest. So um, this is again I 990 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,640 Speaker 1: think it's just a it's a wonderful example of of 991 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:02,880 Speaker 1: the cascading effect of extinction. They also found evidence of 992 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,640 Speaker 1: parasites in those copper lights. They found a quote surprising 993 00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:11,040 Speaker 1: diversity of parasites, many completely new to science. Oh boy. 994 00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,520 Speaker 1: And these are these are largely parasites that would have 995 00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,640 Speaker 1: been exclusive to the moa uh and or the moa 996 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,800 Speaker 1: species in question that just went extinct with their hosts. 997 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:24,520 Speaker 1: And these included, for instance, various types of nematodes. Uh. 998 00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,120 Speaker 1: So you know again, you you can't take a species 999 00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,400 Speaker 1: out of the out of the game without impacting numerous 1000 00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,960 Speaker 1: other species as well. And it's certainly going to be 1001 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,680 Speaker 1: the case when you have such a firmly established and 1002 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,120 Speaker 1: dominant species as the moa of New Zealand. I'm mourned 1003 00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,839 Speaker 1: for the Moa. Yeah, it's hard not to, you know, 1004 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I do want to stress that that and 1005 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,680 Speaker 1: we'll get more into the relationship between the Moa and 1006 00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,080 Speaker 1: the Maori people in our next episode. But it is 1007 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,680 Speaker 1: crucial not to not to feel a special amount of 1008 00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,760 Speaker 1: shame over over the hour in this situation, because again, 1009 00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:05,880 Speaker 1: anytime human beings have come into contact with new ecosystems, 1010 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:10,000 Speaker 1: they have brought extinction with them. We change everywhere we go. Yeah, 1011 00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,200 Speaker 1: and that's that is just that is the nature of 1012 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,839 Speaker 1: human beings. Um, you know, no, no matter where they go, 1013 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,160 Speaker 1: no matter what the time period. We did a previous 1014 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,040 Speaker 1: episode where we talked about Roman extinctions just brought on 1015 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,720 Speaker 1: by the spread of Roman civilization. Um. And we previously 1016 00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:29,919 Speaker 1: mentioned the elephant bird of Madagascar, similar situation. Uh, it 1017 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,360 Speaker 1: was was doing really well than humans came and that 1018 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,640 Speaker 1: spelled its doom. Now, the story of that doom in 1019 00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,160 Speaker 1: the case of the Moa is something we're going to 1020 00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,560 Speaker 1: get more into in our next episode. Though. You know, 1021 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,680 Speaker 1: I just thought of another thing from Madagascar. I believe 1022 00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,000 Speaker 1: I was just reading earlier today that a an extinct 1023 00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:52,359 Speaker 1: relative of the crowned eagle of Africa was the Madagascar 1024 00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,919 Speaker 1: crowned eagle. But it's gone because when humans came to Madagascar, 1025 00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,160 Speaker 1: they hunted its primary prey animal, the giant leam or, 1026 00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 1: to extinction, and then it had no prey anymore. There 1027 00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:07,200 Speaker 1: you go, all right, So so we just keep doing it. 1028 00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,480 Speaker 1: We just keep doing it. And yes, some some amazing 1029 00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,319 Speaker 1: creatures have been lost along the way. But I tell 1030 00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,520 Speaker 1: you the moa. It I'm just really impressed with this animal. 1031 00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,680 Speaker 1: I think it is my It is my my new 1032 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,280 Speaker 1: spirit animal for these trying times we live in UH. 1033 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:26,040 Speaker 1: I will I will ease myself into the imagined arms 1034 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:28,520 Speaker 1: of the moa. It has no arms, it has no wings, 1035 00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,560 Speaker 1: but there's something about its nature that I can I 1036 00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,360 Speaker 1: can cuddle up with and uh and find comfort in. 1037 00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,840 Speaker 1: You're gonna become the lower ax of the ratty. It's 1038 00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:39,439 Speaker 1: you're gonna go on a quest where you want people 1039 00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:42,720 Speaker 1: to stop using the ostrich as the example animal of 1040 00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,080 Speaker 1: like cowardice and ignorance. I'm gonna have to I need 1041 00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:47,480 Speaker 1: to get out of the house and go look at 1042 00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,280 Speaker 1: some rattites this uh this weekend. There is there's an 1043 00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:54,600 Speaker 1: email that loves fairly close to my house. Yeah, what's 1044 00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,360 Speaker 1: its name? Big Glue? Biglue the EMU. I don't think 1045 00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:59,600 Speaker 1: I may have to go feed Big Glue this weekend. Okay, 1046 00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:01,520 Speaker 1: I don't think gotta know about Big Lue. Oh well, 1047 00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:03,200 Speaker 1: I'll tell you about it when we go out the air. 1048 00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:07,120 Speaker 1: Find Big lu for yourself, all right. In the meantime, 1049 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:09,720 Speaker 1: go and check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow 1050 00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,560 Speaker 1: Your Mind. They're a bunch of them. You can find 1051 00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:15,120 Speaker 1: them wherever you get your podcasts, and you can also 1052 00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:17,640 Speaker 1: find us by going to special blow your Mind dot com. 1053 00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:19,920 Speaker 1: That will shoot you over to the I Heart listing 1054 00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,240 Speaker 1: for this show. Wherever you get the show, just make 1055 00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,800 Speaker 1: sure you rate, review, and subscribe huge Thanks as always 1056 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,040 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 1057 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,040 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 1058 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,280 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 1059 00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:35,560 Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 1060 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,440 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 1061 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:48,440 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of 1062 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,120 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, 1063 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,160 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're 1064 00:58:54,160 --> 00:59:06,800 Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows. B b by By tint 1065 00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,760 Speaker 1: to four foot fo