Speaker 1: Hi, how are you good?
Speaker 2: How's it gone?
Speaker 1: It's going? Well? Do you mind if I asked how
Speaker 1: old you are?
Speaker 2: Thirty two?
Speaker 1: You're thirty two? Okay, So.
Speaker 3: People, I wondered if people that are listening in my
Speaker 3: fans will be like, wait, why would you have that
Speaker 3: guy on? You know, like I'm about female empowerment and
Speaker 3: a lot of women listen and moms, and you know,
Speaker 3: I have a responsibility to them. And I was thinking
Speaker 3: as I was walking that you have an intriguing story,
Speaker 3: even if it's a cautionary tale for someone who could
Speaker 3: end up being smarter by realizing some of the things
Speaker 3: that you were accused of or you know. Also, I
Speaker 3: believe in like letting someone come here and tell their
Speaker 3: story and not like setting up a trap like I've
Speaker 3: been on shows where I walk in and they act
Speaker 3: like they're excited to have me, and then I come
Speaker 3: on and then they're like, just like it's a booby
Speaker 3: trap and it's just to make me look like, look,
Speaker 3: you know, bad, And it's just not either of those things.
Speaker 1: You're a guest.
Speaker 3: I respect that, but I want you to be really
Speaker 3: honest and I want us to really get into this
Speaker 3: because I think it's an interesting story.
Speaker 1: So are you cool with that? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Love, how straight to the point you are. Thanks for
Speaker 2: having me, So let's have some fun and see what
Speaker 2: we can do.
Speaker 1: Okay. So you're thirty two, are you close with your parents?
Speaker 2: Kind of grew up in New Jersey outside the city,
Speaker 2: but lived in New York since I was eighteen, except
Speaker 2: for my four year jail vacation.
Speaker 1: So you had a jail vacation. Where was that all over?
Speaker 2: I kept getting in trouble, but mostly outside of Detroit, Michigan,
Speaker 2: so a little bit of ways away from New York.
Speaker 3: So were you a kid that was always getting in trouble?
Speaker 3: Like at school we always sort of like getting disciplined
Speaker 3: and sent to the principal.
Speaker 2: Always an entrepreneur. I started my first business in seventh
Speaker 2: grade and had three full time employees and got in
Speaker 2: trouble when one of them sent me an invitation for
Speaker 2: his wedding, and my parents like, why is this grown man?
Speaker 2: Because se him get married?
Speaker 3: So I think, go, oh wow, okay, And were you
Speaker 3: did you come from a wealthy family, like.
Speaker 2: Middle middle upper class like New Jersey suburbs, So.
Speaker 3: Again you didn't want for anything, but like you weren't rich, right,
Speaker 3: Your parent parents weren't driving ferraris.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't crazy, got it?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 3: But you went on vacations. You had a decent, normal
Speaker 3: childhood for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So try to obviously push the boundaries a little
Speaker 2: bit myself past.
Speaker 1: That, right. And so where did you go to Did
Speaker 1: you go to college?
Speaker 2: I went to a school called Bucknell for almost one year.
Speaker 2: During my freshman year of college, I became one of
Speaker 2: the youngest people to raise venture capital. So left college
Speaker 2: to embark in that tech venture journey and moved to
Speaker 2: New York trying to make that happen.
Speaker 3: You were you knew what VC was in college? You
Speaker 3: were reading about this stuff. How did you know about
Speaker 3: all this stuff?
Speaker 2: There was an alumni day and someone told me the
Speaker 2: word venture capital. And I recently found my notebook from
Speaker 2: that day, right right, venture capital question mark. So started
Speaker 2: researching it and trying to figure out what it was
Speaker 2: and trying to understand who these people were that would
Speaker 2: back eighteen years like me to kind of give us
Speaker 2: a chance to build her own business on a much
Speaker 2: larger scale than I was doing for my bedroom as
Speaker 2: a kid.
Speaker 3: It's interesting, and we'll get into it, But like I
Speaker 3: think about I remember being at a party at Jordan
Speaker 3: Balfar's house in the Hampton's years ago, and now he's
Speaker 3: like famous going out and talking, which to me is
Speaker 3: like I'm mixed about it, because he is smart and
Speaker 3: he probably could have made money doing anything. But now
Speaker 3: it's this person who's a criminal who's out there talking
Speaker 3: and like speaking and getting you know, news events, I
Speaker 3: mean news shows. And so I think about the fact
Speaker 3: that it sounds like you were smart, you were motivated,
Speaker 3: You're an entrepreneur. You could have like gone one way,
Speaker 3: and it sounds like you want another. So your parents
Speaker 3: pay for your college for a year, and then you're out,
Speaker 3: and then what are you doing then? And where are
Speaker 3: you living and how are you supporting yourself?
Speaker 2: So raised money for this, tried to build a social
Speaker 2: networking website for my college drum Room. Raised money for
Speaker 2: this social networking app, and moved to New York City
Speaker 2: and was eighteen nineteen. My friends were now sophomores in college,
Speaker 2: kind of all alone, and I, you know, snuck into
Speaker 2: a nightclub one night and saw you there. I thought
Speaker 2: I was the coolest person in the world, and obviously
Speaker 2: say hi, because it's in the same time there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was PhD when it first opened at the Dream Hotel.
Speaker 2: So funny, how yeah fast So I.
Speaker 3: Remember going there and I've only ever been there once.
Speaker 3: That was the one up on the roof.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it was like New Year's the year when
Speaker 2: you were with your then husband at the time, and
Speaker 2: being a nineteen year old and all my friends were
Speaker 2: in college.
Speaker 1: I thought I was the man, because that's really weird.
Speaker 3: I feel like I almost remember that. It was like
Speaker 3: towards the back and you were with your friends. There
Speaker 3: was a group of guys there, and I looked good
Speaker 3: that night. I know it sounds crazy, I would looked great.
Speaker 1: I think I looked good that okay, So wow, okay.
Speaker 2: Crazy time flies to fast, right, it's insane life.
Speaker 3: Insurance, it's insane. You were nineteen, Did you have money?
Speaker 3: Were you making money then?
Speaker 2: A little bit? You know, I had a small salary.
Speaker 2: I was taking from my company and did a lot
Speaker 2: of like you know, fun consulting work and was a hustler, right,
Speaker 2: and I was nineteen with no responsibilities. So I think
Speaker 2: it's easier when you're a kid with no family, no spouse,
Speaker 2: no children to kind of have fun and make your
Speaker 2: own path.
Speaker 3: But did you feel like you were finagling a little bit,
Speaker 3: like in that time when you were coming up, like
Speaker 3: moving a little too fast and loose, or you were
Speaker 3: too young and stupid to know.
Speaker 2: I think I was just hanging out with people who
Speaker 2: are much older than me. Most of my friends were
Speaker 2: in school, and I started hanging out with my investors
Speaker 2: who are fifty sixty year old, and like they're, you know, peers.
Speaker 1: So I was the young guy, almost.
Speaker 2: Like the toy in the room where you know, they
Speaker 2: would take me to the gallows with the dinners and
Speaker 2: I'd be this like, you know, fun, weird nineteen year
Speaker 2: old who you know, could provide conversations for ten minutes
Speaker 2: at the meals. So it's kind of this weird world
Speaker 2: where I was almost subducted from my childhood or my
Speaker 2: late childhood years and put into like New York society
Speaker 2: because I was like weird kid with a tech startup.
Speaker 3: So it was kind of like, do you think you
Speaker 3: were hot shit? Did you think you were hot shit?
Speaker 3: Did you have a fancy car? Were you like getting girls?
Speaker 3: Were you getting bottles? Did you think you were like
Speaker 3: a hot stepper?
Speaker 2: I think it took a couple of years. I definitely
Speaker 2: thought I was lame for a couple of years. And
Speaker 2: by the time I was on one or twenty two
Speaker 2: and you know, had some revenue coming in and making
Speaker 2: some money, I've definitely embraced that lifestyle that I probably
Speaker 2: wasn't ready for.
Speaker 3: And they all liked the marketing of making you this
Speaker 3: young wonder kin, like you're just like small star athlete
Speaker 3: that they all know, Like they like, this kid's going
Speaker 3: to be that a billionaire. Is that the type of
Speaker 3: thing that was going on with the older guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I felt like I had to grow into
Speaker 2: it right and like in the beginning I was awkward
Speaker 2: and didn't really know how to talk or hold conversation,
Speaker 2: and a couple of years later embrace that to try
Speaker 2: to grow into it and like almost fill those shoes.
Speaker 1: Do you speak to any of those people now? Uh?
Speaker 1: Some yes?
Speaker 2: And I think, like skipping ahead, I went to jail
Speaker 2: for wire fraud, which basically was lying to a aud
Speaker 2: these investors to raise money for the fire festival.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so some of those guys with a fire festival investors.
Speaker 2: Correct, It's like that trust that I violated. I think
Speaker 2: was the worst part of all of it. I know
Speaker 2: we'll get there, but that's what kind of hurts me
Speaker 2: the most.
Speaker 1: Known and so you actually cared about these people.
Speaker 3: They were like and and some of them do speak
Speaker 3: to you, they have a soft spot for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very like, very black and white. Some are like,
Speaker 2: fuck off, and some are like, we totally get it
Speaker 2: and what you did was wrong, but we'll give you
Speaker 2: another chance. So it's it's kind of there's no one,
Speaker 2: no one's in the middle. It's very it's very visceral.
Speaker 3: Okay, And I'm sure some of them were hurt. They
Speaker 3: feel stupid, they're embarrassed for sure. What about your parents?
Speaker 3: What would they think about you hanging with all these
Speaker 3: older people, And did they think you were over your skis?
Speaker 1: Did they say slow down?
Speaker 3: It's too much like the way the movie Wall Street,
Speaker 3: Charlie Sheen's father, Martin, yeah, he's Martin Sheen, is like,
Speaker 3: it's too much fast and loose over here.
Speaker 2: For sure, you're going too fast. You're taking too many risks,
Speaker 2: whether that's adrenaline seeking, physical risks, or financial risks. And
Speaker 2: they like, go to college, you go to school. So
Speaker 2: I think they just took the complete opposite approach, where
Speaker 2: it's like, hey, totally pull back, and obviously that kind
Speaker 2: of propelled me to keep going faster and trying to
Speaker 2: fight as much rope as I could.
Speaker 3: And in watching the documentary, which was years ago, I remember,
Speaker 3: like I'm you seemed like you thought you were the shit,
Speaker 3: and you are seemed more humbled now, like you definitely
Speaker 3: have had your ass handed to you for sure.
Speaker 2: Right, I don't know, never have seen the docks. I
Speaker 2: think it all just went so fast. The Fire Festival
Speaker 2: was literally a four month period of announcing this trailer
Speaker 2: video with the viral social campaign to the actual date
Speaker 2: of the festival. So I definitely think it's fair to
Speaker 2: say I was actually like the total asshole for those
Speaker 2: four months. But in reality, it was like this whirlwind
Speaker 2: of this craziness and such a period of time that
Speaker 2: defined my life.
Speaker 1: Right, it's kind of wild that defines that's your identity now, right, I.
Speaker 2: Maybe four months as a twenty four year old, which
Speaker 2: is crazy.
Speaker 3: So you were twenty four years old, And for those
Speaker 3: of you who are too young to remember or live
Speaker 3: under our rock, fire Festival was from my perspective because
Speaker 3: I'm just going to talk about, like from the outside
Speaker 3: and something you were just seeing through social media, all
Speaker 3: these famous people. The Kylie Jenner is the models. Everyone
Speaker 3: going to this island excited. It's the Fomo. It's the
Speaker 3: Tart Dubai trip times ten million, It's Coachella, It's all
Speaker 3: that Revolve festival. It's all that stuff of like douchey
Speaker 3: people bragging Fomo better than like it's supposed to be aspirational.
Speaker 3: Look at my outfits, like you know, we're so fabulous
Speaker 3: and you're not.
Speaker 1: We're on a boat, we're rich.
Speaker 3: All that shit piled into one And I read the
Speaker 3: stat today that it was more viral than Coachella with
Speaker 3: more impressions, And then you said, then it said, like
Speaker 3: and there's no third is like way dropped down?
Speaker 2: Is that? What?
Speaker 1: Is that accurate?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been the most talked about festival in the
Speaker 2: world since twenty sixteen and it's never happened, which is
Speaker 2: kind of wild, right, Like literally the most talked about
Speaker 2: Thesic festival ever without it ever taking place.
Speaker 1: And you were partners with jaw Rule and it fucked
Speaker 1: him up too.
Speaker 2: We were partners. Yes, I was the only one he
Speaker 2: went to jail so I think I was the only one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But so how did you? But he was probably
Speaker 1: scared he was going to jail.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think he had gone to jail already,
Speaker 2: so he knew what he had to do, I think
Speaker 2: at that point.
Speaker 1: And were you close with him?
Speaker 2: Yeah? We were very close friends for maybe three or
Speaker 2: four year years prior to Fire and Fire Festival, and
Speaker 2: always knew we'd work together in some capacity and that
Speaker 2: was the that was the attempt.
Speaker 1: So how did you meet him?
Speaker 2: I had a company called Magnesis prior to Fire, and
Speaker 2: I basically built a events company on top of your
Speaker 2: credit card. So I bought this black strip of metal
Speaker 2: from China and would copy people's like shitty Chase debit
Speaker 2: cards onto this black hunk of metal and then built
Speaker 2: different benefits you would get on top of the card.
Speaker 2: And one of the benefits was a lot of these
Speaker 2: small private concerts we did throughout New York and he
Speaker 2: was one of the two dozen artists that we booked
Speaker 2: for these concerts. Just kind of connected through that and
Speaker 2: became friends.
Speaker 3: Meaning it was just like a branding vehicle. You were
Speaker 3: like putting the blush in a better compact and adding
Speaker 3: some marketing assets too, Is that what you're saying exactly?
Speaker 2: And then we had twenty five twenty five year olds
Speaker 2: running around New York with these cards who loved it
Speaker 2: and then booked a lot of music artists a way
Speaker 2: just like kind of have fun and get back to them.
Speaker 1: And why was it so criticized?
Speaker 3: Because I saw on the dock that it was criticized
Speaker 3: as if like I forgot exactly what the criticism was,
Speaker 3: but it was like that there was some fraud there too.
Speaker 3: There was some perception of fraud there too. There was
Speaker 3: the social media network that you made. There's a perception
Speaker 3: that it was just like something else, which to me,
Speaker 3: a lot of things are like something else, So like,
Speaker 3: is that the only problem that people had with that
Speaker 3: that was like something else?
Speaker 2: I think it was amazing for three years, and then
Speaker 2: I got distracted by this new shiny thing which is
Speaker 2: Fire for four months, and then you know, once Fire collapsed,
Speaker 2: it took it all down. We sold bang uses for
Speaker 2: basically pennies after the Fire festival because I was the
Speaker 2: brand and my ability to create these experiences were destroyed
Speaker 2: at that point. But I think it was more about it.
Speaker 3: It was I'm saying. No, I'm saying, wasn't there something before?
Speaker 3: You said there was a social network? So someone criticized
Speaker 3: that as being like something else. Was there any other
Speaker 3: legal problem with that? Was there any investigation into that
Speaker 3: social network? That just was whatever and it dissolved. It
Speaker 3: wasn't exactly did that business in and of itself have
Speaker 3: any taint to it?
Speaker 2: It was just the taint was me, and like you know,
Speaker 2: I was ruined, right, and so if oh that's Billy's product,
Speaker 2: therefore it must be terrible.
Speaker 1: So I think that was kind of right.
Speaker 3: But no one but so whatever they were digging up,
Speaker 3: they were just digging up whatever they could on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was no criminal auity or like the legal
Speaker 2: aspect of the business. It was a great business that
Speaker 2: I didn't know how to see through because I got
Speaker 2: distracted by like what's next in this bigger opportunity? And
Speaker 2: that was my That was my fault and like my issue.
Speaker 3: But in order to believe you, I want to know
Speaker 3: that you you you admit that there was criminal aspect
Speaker 3: of Firefest completely.
Speaker 2: It was totally blocked.
Speaker 3: By Okay, so you're acknowledging because I mean you you
Speaker 3: deserved to go to jail in your opinion, you acknowledge
Speaker 3: your wrongdoing completely.
Speaker 2: I met a lot of very good people in jail,
Speaker 2: but I didn't meet one person who deserve to be
Speaker 2: there in some capacity. So I think everybody, like I
Speaker 2: think it's very rare they're going to find a random
Speaker 2: person and prosecute them. I think you have done something wrong,
Speaker 2: and you make it over prosecuted or under prosecuted. But
Speaker 2: I was certainly guilty and deserve to go.
Speaker 3: To jail fifty shades of how much there's a disparity
Speaker 3: and someone belongs to be there for longer.
Speaker 1: It's not I got a longer set.
Speaker 2: But okay, you did something wrong, you get there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, you were in the mix and something's wrong. Okay.
Speaker 3: Do you feel that you were lucky with your sentence
Speaker 3: or your sentence was longer or was exactly what it
Speaker 3: should be based on you know, other people, or what's
Speaker 3: right or what you've heard read whatever.
Speaker 2: The answer literally changed by the day I started in
Speaker 2: the jail in New York, where there were a lot
Speaker 2: of other financial crime people, and there I felt like
Speaker 2: my sentence was super long because I would meet guys
Speaker 2: who had dollar figures or victim amounts that were ten
Speaker 2: times mine who had less time. And then I got
Speaker 2: in trouble in prison a couple of times and was
Speaker 2: transferred further west, first to Ohio and then to Detroit,
Speaker 2: where I met people who had, you know, a couple
Speaker 2: of dollars and twenty year sentences, So I kind of
Speaker 2: felt lucky. So I think it really depends on where
Speaker 2: you are. But in the day, I think my six
Speaker 2: year sentence was fair. That's probably right.
Speaker 1: Did you have terrifying experiences in there?
Speaker 2: I did ten months in solitary confinement, seven of it
Speaker 2: which was for trying to do a podcast from the
Speaker 2: prison payphone, So I think that really sucked. And like
Speaker 2: the biggest takeaway from that is I'm not a conspiracy theorist,
Speaker 2: but knowing that there was someone who had that power
Speaker 2: to snap their fingers and literally put me into a
Speaker 2: concrete box for seven months was wild.
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, you were in solitary confine? What you
Speaker 3: said ten seven or ten.
Speaker 2: Ten months total? I did one seventh month stint just
Speaker 2: for the podcast, Like, as punishment for that.
Speaker 1: What is solitary confinement?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Does it? Hell?
Speaker 2: It's bad? You're supposed to be able to go outside
Speaker 2: for one hour a day, but it was during COVID,
Speaker 2: so ironically that was an excuse where I couldn't leave.
Speaker 2: So I was literally in a cage for seven months,
Speaker 2: and that was really really crazy.
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, You eat in there, you do everything
Speaker 3: in there, you can you read it.
Speaker 2: They put your food through like a doggy tray. So
Speaker 2: there's no like contact with anybody. And you're allowed to
Speaker 2: have two books a week, which sounds like a lot,
Speaker 2: but when you have nothing else to do, it's it's
Speaker 2: you know, you do that in a day and a
Speaker 2: half or two days, even if you're like an average reader.
Speaker 2: So a lot of push ups, a lot of meditating,
Speaker 2: and a lot of longing for relationships like you know, physical, emotional,
Speaker 2: just wanted to be around people. I think it's the
Speaker 2: biggest thing you start creating after a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1: Did it fuck with your head big time? Did it
Speaker 1: mess you? Like?
Speaker 3: Are you very fucked up from being in solitary confinement
Speaker 3: for that period of time like we see in the movies.
Speaker 1: That sounds yeah.
Speaker 2: I think like nightmares literally maybe stopped two months ago,
Speaker 2: so it it took a few years afterwards to kind
Speaker 2: of go away. And once again, I think the biggest
Speaker 2: fear was knowing that like, oh wow, there was some
Speaker 2: prison official who literally could say, okay, I want Billy,
Speaker 2: you know in here for seven months and it happened,
Speaker 2: and that was just crazy for me.
Speaker 1: Are you in therapy?
Speaker 2: I have been, Yes.
Speaker 3: What did your parents, whether you have a good relationship
Speaker 3: with them or not. You have some relationship with your siblings.
Speaker 2: Younger sister thirties, slives in the city.
Speaker 1: Are you close with her? Not really?
Speaker 2: I think it's hard hard for her. She was twenty
Speaker 2: one or twenty two when it all happens, So I think,
Speaker 2: like you know, as a young woman in New York,
Speaker 2: it's kind of tough when your brothers it's me.
Speaker 1: At that point, she was in the demo.
Speaker 2: She was in that yeah, Target demo exactly.
Speaker 3: And what about your mom, Like, what was your mom
Speaker 3: saying when you were going into solitary confinement?
Speaker 1: Was she hysterical?
Speaker 2: I think the hardest part for the family is not known,
Speaker 2: at least when you're going through it, like you have
Speaker 2: real time updates, like it's you, it's happening. You know
Speaker 2: what's happening every second when your family's not there, like
Speaker 2: they might hear oh in the news or from a letter,
Speaker 2: like you're in solidary confinement, but what does that mean?
Speaker 2: Like what's actually happening? So it's like not knowing made
Speaker 2: them think the worst. I think that was the most
Speaker 2: messed up part and hardest to kind of come to
Speaker 2: terms with.
Speaker 1: So you traumatize your entire family.
Speaker 2: Like for yeah, it's terrible. Yeah, parents, for sure.
Speaker 3: Have you cost them a lot of money?
Speaker 2: Some I think the emotional damage is probably the worst
Speaker 2: part of it. Like you know, money can always be
Speaker 2: solved in some capacity, and like I will do that
Speaker 2: through the rest of my life. I think the emotional
Speaker 2: damage to trust, like that's where really hurts the most.
Speaker 3: Are you spending the rest of your life trying to
Speaker 3: repair the emotional trust too?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? I think like my dream is to be able
Speaker 2: to go and shake the hands people that I wronged
Speaker 2: and where they're like, okay, like we got paid back,
Speaker 2: but that's one thing more importantly, like we can trust
Speaker 2: you now, and not saying they're going to be investors
Speaker 2: or business partners again, more of that like human level
Speaker 2: where hey, like I trust you as a person. I
Speaker 2: think that's kind of I crave that and that would
Speaker 2: make me feel fulfilled.
Speaker 3: So why is someone from jail suing you for six
Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So ironically, my crime was far from the worst
Speaker 2: of people in prison, and as I was transferred to
Speaker 2: higher level prisons and worse prisons, you know, I was
Speaker 2: essentially it wasn't that bad day to day, but I
Speaker 2: was a target for people with hainous crimes. So there
Speaker 2: was someone who ended up being a child predator who
Speaker 2: basically met me when I was first released to a
Speaker 2: half way house from jail, started showering me with gifts
Speaker 2: and found out when I was still in that halfway
Speaker 2: house that he was a child predator and basically severed
Speaker 2: ties with him. And you know, that's that story. So
Speaker 2: it was a hard transition from like leaving jail.
Speaker 3: Oh wait, what does it have to do with the
Speaker 3: six hundred thousand I'm saying, why would someone sue you?
Speaker 3: What was the six hundred thousand dollar claim about? And
Speaker 3: where is that now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was trying to give me gifts.
Speaker 3: You admit that firefest was completely illegal and you did
Speaker 3: criminals to hear you're saying you did not do anything.
Speaker 1: You're saying this is wrong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, someone like trying to pull me down a little
Speaker 2: bit to bring themselves up, whether it's you know, fifteen
Speaker 2: seconds of press or whatever it may be.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, that's hard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, I'm gonna choose to believe you because I'm
Speaker 3: you're being accountable about some things.
Speaker 1: Like I'm trying to wade through this, but it's put
Speaker 1: you're pretty clear.
Speaker 3: Okay, So you were in jail and you were still
Speaker 3: fucking around trying to make money, trying to do something
Speaker 3: like what So what is that is that?
Speaker 1: Like you still hadn't learned your lesson? Like what was
Speaker 1: that about?
Speaker 3: Like why didn't you just like put your head down.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna fucking pay attention, do what I'm told, listen,
Speaker 3: and get the fuck out of here.
Speaker 2: Oh maybe I need you as my mom my mom
Speaker 2: at that point, but it's like I didn't know how
Speaker 2: to sit down and shut up basically, and like it
Speaker 2: might not have broken the rules per se with the podcast,
Speaker 2: but it was against like the theme with the rules, right,
Speaker 2: the point of jail is to you're in time out.
Speaker 2: It's not to just provide a different platform for you
Speaker 2: to continue your business. And I didn't get that, and
Speaker 2: it took time, and I kept thinking, oh, it's like
Speaker 2: it's on me. I can prove that I'm not as
Speaker 2: bad as it might have been portrayed. But that was
Speaker 2: beyond the point. Like the point was I was wrong,
Speaker 2: I was guilty, and because of that it is now
Speaker 2: time to you know, be quiet. So it took a
Speaker 2: minute to get there.
Speaker 3: Ellen Degenerous once said to me, you will keep making
Speaker 3: the mistake until you learn the lesson, like in relationships
Speaker 3: and in your case, in your your antics and your shortcuts.
Speaker 3: And Lauren Michaels once said to me, you have to
Speaker 3: make an exit to make an entrance, meaning like it
Speaker 3: wasn't even about me, he was talking about one of
Speaker 3: the people on Saturday Night Live. But I take that
Speaker 3: as like your day will come to be able to
Speaker 3: like so sit down, shut up, and then like later
Speaker 3: you know, I love that, not that it's not that
Speaker 3: it's going to be good for you. I mean, it's
Speaker 3: not great for you by any means, and you don't
Speaker 3: deserve it to be. But I but I you know,
Speaker 3: I want to talk through it, okay, So.
Speaker 2: I love that the day will come and it's like
Speaker 2: you have to go through the punished metas there first
Speaker 2: before you have that chance, And I couldn't couldn't grasp that,
Speaker 2: So I agree, right, awesome.
Speaker 3: You've thought about people who have done really bad things,
Speaker 3: have you like looked into those more closer than others?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And I think it's like it's yeah, it's it's
Speaker 2: funny for my perspective to be like, you know, why
Speaker 2: is he or she doing that?
Speaker 1: Or like, oh, that's so amazing what they did do.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's.
Speaker 1: Cool to see who do you look at? Who are
Speaker 1: you looking at?
Speaker 3: Thinking like they fucked up but like eventually were able
Speaker 3: to like redeem themselves.
Speaker 1: Who are those people? Besides Michael Vick?
Speaker 2: I think Ian Schrager had a really cool comebackstory and
Speaker 2: obviously now is an incredible hotel brand and hotel line.
Speaker 2: So someone who took it there able to be good
Speaker 2: at find a good partner to kind of help them
Speaker 2: and you know, provide parameters and be successful. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 3: You mean because he went to jail because what was
Speaker 3: going on with Studio fifty four?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like came back and said, Okay, I'm great
Speaker 2: at this like two or three things, and I need
Speaker 2: help in these other areas and found a great partner
Speaker 2: and you know, built a successful brand for himself.
Speaker 1: So interesting.
Speaker 3: I would I had him on this podcast, and I
Speaker 3: would never have thought of that because I forgot to
Speaker 3: the point of marketing and branding.
Speaker 1: I forgot.
Speaker 3: And I know that story because I know I know
Speaker 3: somebody who did all the lighting and the wiring for
Speaker 3: Studio fifty four. Do you think that Ian Schrager's crimes
Speaker 3: were on par with yours? Or like worse or better
Speaker 3: or just similar? Is Jordan Belfire the Wolf of All Street?
Speaker 3: Is it on par the crimes? Is it similar?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think my crime is worse and Ian triggers. Uh. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think I probably caused more emotional damage than he
Speaker 2: did to people, So I think, like that's worse.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, his is like just general like their taste skimming,
Speaker 3: but it's not like hurting direct people.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think what I did is worse than him.
Speaker 2: But he's still, you know, found a way where someone
Speaker 2: like you would even forget because he's become you know,
Speaker 2: respectful person, a member of society. So I think that's
Speaker 2: that's motivating.
Speaker 1: But about Jordan, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know him personally, so I think this story
Speaker 2: is like it's hard to understand, like what's real and
Speaker 2: what isn't real, right, because everything is just sensationalized so
Speaker 2: much so.
Speaker 1: And marketing has been a movie and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: Yees, So I don't really know like who he heard
Speaker 2: or didn't hurt and maybe it's bad, maybe it's not
Speaker 2: so bad.
Speaker 1: It's it's kind of hard to hard to say without
Speaker 1: knowing the details.
Speaker 3: Got it, Okay, So let's get into firefest.
Speaker 1: All right? So you're a hotshot.
Speaker 3: You got this credit card, you've got this like buzz,
Speaker 3: and you're running around the city going to clubs. And
Speaker 3: I think and that you had a girlfriend that was
Speaker 3: on the road with you, right like doing this?
Speaker 1: No, yeah, a little bit, Yeah to speak to her anymore?
Speaker 1: Have a new one?
Speaker 2: Now? Who I met after fire?
Speaker 1: But you met a girl after fire before prison?
Speaker 2: Correct? Yes?
Speaker 1: And she stayed with you for some time.
Speaker 2: We broke up for a little bit and you know,
Speaker 2: an how we're back together. So she she's tough?
Speaker 1: Interesting does she? Does she trust you?
Speaker 2: I hope? So? So I think she she was not
Speaker 2: there for the for the fun time. So that was
Speaker 2: kind of ironic, right, like didn't get to experience the
Speaker 2: quick rise.
Speaker 1: She's only been there for the ship, only only been.
Speaker 2: There for the ship, So I think I owe it
Speaker 2: to make things work.
Speaker 1: What kind of person is she like? What is she like?
Speaker 1: Conservative is she like? What is she like? What does
Speaker 1: she do for a living in marketing?
Speaker 3: I don't have to like get into her fully, but
Speaker 3: I'm just curious what kind of woman you're in a
Speaker 3: relationship with.
Speaker 2: Super like strong willed, strong personality. Yeah, she's far and
Speaker 2: moved here when she was fifteen or sixteen, which is
Speaker 2: kind of like tough.
Speaker 1: And what was her family? Said? You have you met
Speaker 1: a family?
Speaker 2: I have. It's it's weird because I think people who
Speaker 2: kind of met me after didn't didn't get to experience
Speaker 2: like the good and the bad that came with the
Speaker 2: chaos of fire and Fire Festival. So I think to them,
Speaker 2: it's like here's a character, and like here's like you know,
Speaker 2: current Billy for all of us good and all is bad.
Speaker 2: So I think for them it's kind of hard to
Speaker 2: put it all together and like understand what's what okay?
Speaker 3: So you are doing this credit card, you're a hot shot,
Speaker 3: you have a girlfriend, walk me through what goes on?
Speaker 3: So now you go to some of these investors that
Speaker 3: you were doing VC with and you've talken a jar rule,
Speaker 3: you brought it, you packaged it with Jar roles, so
Speaker 3: people wanted to invest because you had him already right
Speaker 3: like stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Yes, like it was kind of crazy. We had this
Speaker 2: townhouse in the West Village where all of our cardholders
Speaker 2: could come. It was almost like a so house, you know,
Speaker 2: twelve years ago for young people in Manhattan. And this
Speaker 2: guy walked in who was a programmer at Google and
Speaker 2: a self taught pilot, and he said, I just bought
Speaker 2: a plane. I want a flyabillity to the Bahamas. So
Speaker 2: you know, of course, she said, he asked one of
Speaker 2: this guy's plane. We ran out of gas and landed
Speaker 2: on this remote island in this small chain of the Bahamas,
Speaker 2: and turned out the island had crazy history as like
Speaker 2: a Blackbeard and a Pablo Escobars, like you know, teams,
Speaker 2: drug running island and whatever. Like now we were there
Speaker 2: and I just totally fell in love with this place.
Speaker 2: I fell in love with the ocean. I fell in
Speaker 2: love with literally the four people who actually lived there.
Speaker 2: And I kept bringing my friends and customers and music
Speaker 2: talent all to this island, and these trips kept growing
Speaker 2: and growing.
Speaker 1: Who was paying for the trips to go to the island.
Speaker 2: Initially we were selling spots to our Magnesis cardholders, so
Speaker 2: they would basically pay a fee and we'd take them
Speaker 2: from Teeterborough and these like small crappy nineteen sixties planes
Speaker 2: and fly to the island for the weekend.
Speaker 1: Where would they stay.
Speaker 2: We would there were a couple of small houses or
Speaker 2: villas there. We would get a boat and like we
Speaker 2: kind of like it started with four people and they
Speaker 2: became two hundred people trips. And on one of these
Speaker 2: trips I had a childhood friend who said, you should
Speaker 2: totally do a music festival here for all of your
Speaker 2: Magnesist cardholders.
Speaker 1: So what does that friend say? Now?
Speaker 2: I know right, Like it's funny because like twenty people
Speaker 2: have since said, oh, it's my idea. But it was like, really,
Speaker 2: this guy who wasn't involved at all, who had the
Speaker 2: idea for fire and.
Speaker 1: Fire festival And is he still your friend?
Speaker 2: Haven't spoken to him? Actually? No? Okay, but that's where
Speaker 2: it started.
Speaker 3: So are you are you ripping these two hundred people
Speaker 3: off while this is happening or no, this is just
Speaker 3: normal like you're making some money.
Speaker 2: No, these trips are great and like they're awesome. And
Speaker 2: what started with your average twenty two year old became
Speaker 2: big music artists, comedians, some of the biggest models in
Speaker 2: the world. And we started filming some of these trips
Speaker 2: and bits.
Speaker 1: Who was paying for this? Your business is paying for it.
Speaker 3: You're making so much money that you're just like you're
Speaker 3: spending this or who's paying for all this stuff?
Speaker 2: Initially the customers are paying for it themselves? Then eventually he.
Speaker 1: Was paying for the filming it.
Speaker 2: Now our business are going to pay for the trips
Speaker 2: are getting big, we have brand sponsors, we're making more money,
Speaker 2: Like you know, things are going well now that business
Speaker 2: is paying for it. At that point where it's like,
Speaker 2: all right, let's do a festival. Now it's time to
Speaker 2: raise some money. Like we've proved we can have you know,
Speaker 2: three or four days where you escape reality in New
Speaker 2: York City, you're diving for your own fish or cooking
Speaker 2: in the beach, and all these people who might not
Speaker 2: spend time together at home are now becoming great friends
Speaker 2: or they're starting companies together. And wanted to kind of
Speaker 2: like formulate and package these experiences and sell it as
Speaker 2: a music festival?
Speaker 1: You raise how much money with how many people.
Speaker 2: Ended up raising around like twenty seven or twenty eight
Speaker 2: million for Fire Festival over this four month period from
Speaker 2: maybe three or four dozen investors.
Speaker 3: So at the number that's the number of what you
Speaker 3: owe back is twenty seven million plus seven million in taxes,
Speaker 3: so you right correct, exactly thirty four million in the hole.
Speaker 3: And all these people invested, And what went sideways? And
Speaker 3: how fast did it go sideways? And how much did
Speaker 3: you know? And what we you trying to do? And
Speaker 3: how did you get yourself in deeper? And how did
Speaker 3: you get yourself to jail?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: What now goes on? So you're there? What goes on?
Speaker 2: There are two big issues? So the first thing is
Speaker 2: that even if Fire Festival was perfect, it was as
Speaker 2: luxurious adventurous as we advertised, I still would have gone
Speaker 2: to jail because I lied to the investors to try
Speaker 2: to get more money, Like so that was the crime.
Speaker 2: The crime was like a.
Speaker 3: Mini made off crime, Like you're saying, let me get
Speaker 3: more so I can, and then I'm going to end
Speaker 3: up paying them back. You thought you had you could go,
Speaker 3: you could handle it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I lied and said, hey, we are
Speaker 2: doing better than we are. I have more money than
Speaker 2: I actually have, or the company is more money that
Speaker 2: actually has and just like gave very basic, almost like
Speaker 2: childlike exaggerations to help raise money, which actually think hurt me.
Speaker 1: But it's a separate story. And then the second part was, wait,
Speaker 1: what do you mean that's a separate start? What do
Speaker 1: you mean say that go through that? Let's just do it.
Speaker 2: I think people were investing in me initially because they
Speaker 2: had worked with me for five or six years. They've
Speaker 2: seen all the little failures, they had seen some of
Speaker 2: the little wins, and they believe that if Fire was
Speaker 2: done right, it would have been bigger than the previous acts,
Speaker 2: which shit right, we all agree with. So they were
Speaker 2: investing because of that, and almost despite my exaggerations for
Speaker 2: how well Fire was doing. I think when it got
Speaker 2: to a certain point where we needed even more money,
Speaker 2: I probably scared away people who would have actually invested
Speaker 2: more because it was too good to be true. So ironically,
Speaker 2: the lying probably pushed away a lot more capital and
Speaker 2: probably people who could have helped make it a reality,
Speaker 2: because like it was obvious.
Speaker 1: You're saying, you could have said I'm in a little
Speaker 1: bit of trouble.
Speaker 3: We can do this, but this is what's going on,
Speaker 3: and let me get some advisors and crowdsource some information
Speaker 3: so you can help me get I'm fucked right now
Speaker 3: and I need help.
Speaker 2: I was so scared to show Kings in the Armor,
Speaker 2: where in the reality was like, these people already trusted me.
Speaker 2: I'd built that trust.
Speaker 1: It's almost endearing for people to hear what's wrong. So
Speaker 1: I was part.
Speaker 3: I was one of the people to start the model.
Speaker 3: Now I was the person to really start the model
Speaker 3: for monetizing reality television, like before the Kardashians, and we
Speaker 3: had the same agent who ended up using my model.
Speaker 1: For them later.
Speaker 3: Like in other words, I was util the Housewives to
Speaker 3: promote Skinny Girl, and I was using this vehicle that
Speaker 3: no one else was using in that way. They were
Speaker 3: using it to show how rich they were and buying diamonds,
Speaker 3: and I was using it because I was poor as
Speaker 3: this vehicle. So this agent then ended up bringing this
Speaker 3: model over to the Kardashians, who were bigger, and they
Speaker 3: weren't bigger yet, but they were still bigger, and like
Speaker 3: was doing deals through the shows for them, a series deal,
Speaker 3: that ended up failing, Like he kind of used a
Speaker 3: quick trim he put into their show. He was using
Speaker 3: my model. But one of the things I experienced, and
Speaker 3: we were great and we made money together, is that
Speaker 3: he would always like act like he knew everything. And
Speaker 3: I was freaked out by that because a couple of
Speaker 3: times we got really jammed up in things that I
Speaker 3: ended up having.
Speaker 1: To get us out of.
Speaker 3: Like it was a situation where I did a brand
Speaker 3: deal with a partner in Skinny Girl for another category
Speaker 3: and I wasn't allowed to use that category, meaning he
Speaker 3: could have said I'm suing you because you're not allowed
Speaker 3: to use this this in genes, let's say, or I
Speaker 3: was shapewear. But what I did was went to the
Speaker 3: original Skinny Girl partner and said, listen, I have to
Speaker 3: go to you to ask my lit I have to
Speaker 3: ask my liquor partner you if I can use the
Speaker 3: intellectual property and these other categories. But the agent did
Speaker 3: a deal with them already and made a mistake because
Speaker 3: he didn't know that. So I said, I'll figure it out,
Speaker 3: and I went to the partner and asked his permission,
Speaker 3: and he didn't love it, but he said no, problem,
Speaker 3: like kind of like I'll do this for you, and
Speaker 3: I probably offered to do something for him. So I'm
Speaker 3: sorry for that long story, but it just is like,
Speaker 3: if you get entangled and you're doing something that you're
Speaker 3: over your skis, you have to go come, you have
Speaker 3: to come correct. So that's what I think you're talking
Speaker 3: about as a business takeaway for people.
Speaker 2: And most smart people understand that nothing is going to
Speaker 2: be perfect. So if you're saying everything is perfect, and
Speaker 2: they'd been there ten times themselves, they're like, this is bullshit, right,
Speaker 2: it's impossible things.
Speaker 1: Are going this well, and I think it scared them away,
Speaker 1: so they started getting nervous.
Speaker 3: They're now in the pyramid scheme, they're not at the top,
Speaker 3: they don't know if they're getting outetting their money out.
Speaker 3: They're all freaking up, but they don't want to give
Speaker 3: more because they're freaking out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they would they would give more to try
Speaker 2: to make it work. I think ultimately we were all
Speaker 2: aligned that making the festival itself work was the best
Speaker 2: chance at a financial win, at a social win, at
Speaker 2: a business win. So we legitimately tried, literally up until
Speaker 2: the last second, to make Fire Festival happen. Then the
Speaker 2: other side of the problem was just my inability to
Speaker 2: build a city in the middle of nowhere in four months.
Speaker 2: It is having no like real estate development experience to
Speaker 2: that scale.
Speaker 3: So yeah, before you got there, you knew the shit
Speaker 3: was going sideways before this, like how long before.
Speaker 2: I didn't know. After the first one thousand guests arrived,
Speaker 2: I had basically my number two come up to me
Speaker 2: and say, three people got killed. This wasn't true at all. Yeah,
Speaker 2: no one was even, no one was slightly hurt. Like, no,
Speaker 2: there was zero physical issues. But I don't know if
Speaker 2: he did that on purpose or if he's telling the truth,
Speaker 2: if he's lying, But like that kind of snapped me
Speaker 2: out of it, like, oh shit, we are not ready.
Speaker 2: And we literally turned like seven to thirty sevens around
Speaker 2: in the air and got everybody off the island. But
Speaker 2: up until that last second of a thousand guests actually arriving,
Speaker 2: I thought that, you know, fire Festival one was going
Speaker 2: to happen, And.
Speaker 1: So where's the true crime.
Speaker 3: Like we saw the cheese sandwich, We've seen the people
Speaker 3: freaking out.
Speaker 1: There was it was terrible conditions. We know the story.
Speaker 3: I mean, many people if you don't know the story.
Speaker 3: It was this shit show that never happened, with a
Speaker 3: piece of cheese that went viral in a styrofoam box
Speaker 3: and people freaking out and crying, but sort of also
Speaker 3: like a camaraderie between them and like it being the
Speaker 3: worst disaster and getting attention for it. But it was
Speaker 3: a disaster. So where was the true crime? You owe
Speaker 3: twenty seven million dollars to how many people?
Speaker 2: So I owed twenty seven million dollars to the three
Speaker 2: dozen or so investors. So the crime were simply the
Speaker 2: people who invested money into fire festival.
Speaker 3: Because you kept because you told them, you lied to
Speaker 3: them that it was going well, and got more money.
Speaker 1: Like what specifically is the crime? Wire fraud? What was
Speaker 1: the crime?
Speaker 2: So like example, okay, you know this sponsor is going
Speaker 2: to pay us five million, but in reality, the sponsor
Speaker 2: is only paying us a million, So like lies like
Speaker 2: that that tried to entice them to make the deal
Speaker 2: look better than actually was, to get more money. Yeah,
Speaker 2: more money exactly. The actual the festival itself wasn't the crime.
Speaker 2: I think most people get that wrong, Like the people
Speaker 2: who bought tickets whatever, Like we legitimately tried to make
Speaker 2: that happen. So the festival didn't matter how it turned out,
Speaker 2: how good or how bad it was. I committed the
Speaker 2: same crime and would have gone to jail for the
Speaker 2: same period of time even if it was the best
Speaker 2: festival of all time.
Speaker 1: So okay, so is your plan? So how do you
Speaker 1: make money? Now? Do you have any money? How much money?
Speaker 2: Doing all right? Doing a lot of marketing, consulting work,
Speaker 2: so realizing like what I suck at and what I'm
Speaker 2: good at. So helping a lot of venture capital back
Speaker 2: startups for their marketing.
Speaker 1: Who's hiring you? Like? What person is hiring you? Like?
Speaker 3: How do you because you already know them, because they're
Speaker 3: intrigued by the story, because they think you're smart and
Speaker 3: you did stupid things, like who's you know? You seem
Speaker 3: sound to me, you seem culpable, you seem accountable.
Speaker 1: I'm surprised.
Speaker 3: I thought you were going to come on here and
Speaker 3: be like trying to convince me of all the ways
Speaker 3: it wasn't your fault.
Speaker 1: I'm surprised. I'm glad I had you on. I have
Speaker 1: you on. Thank you. Who's hiring you? And what are
Speaker 1: they paying you? Are they paying you at a massive discount, Like,
Speaker 1: how is this working?
Speaker 2: Ironically, you know, probably doing pretty well income wise compared
Speaker 2: to where he was before, but the you know, the
Speaker 2: debts owed are so high, so such a large. I
Speaker 2: joke that I have like the world's worst agent, like
Speaker 2: in restitution. Right, no matter what I make, the agent
Speaker 2: gets paid first, and they take a pretty significant piece
Speaker 2: off the top. So do marketing work. And actually a
Speaker 2: lot of it is former investors of mine who have
Speaker 2: invested in let's say thirty tech companies, right, they might
Speaker 2: recommend to some of their investments like this guy's good
Speaker 2: at marketing and he's bad at this, so if you
Speaker 2: can kind of keep him in this box, he's great.
Speaker 1: And that makes sense.
Speaker 3: So you are actually where people are working with you
Speaker 3: again that have worked with you in the past, anyone
Speaker 3: that invested with you.
Speaker 2: Not directly, but the companies they've invested in have hired me.
Speaker 2: So they might call, like the founder of a company
Speaker 2: they invested in, say hey, like, I know you guys
Speaker 2: are having this marketing problem. I think you know, Billy
Speaker 2: can help with this issue, but like, don't let him
Speaker 2: do this. They'll let him do that.
Speaker 3: So how much money are you making a year of
Speaker 3: approximately can you say close range?
Speaker 1: Is it six figures? Is it seven figures? Yeah? In
Speaker 1: that range? Okay, okay, I mean it's not amazing good enough.
Speaker 3: But do you go out to a restaurant, you're eating
Speaker 3: at a sushi restaurant, You're wearing decent clothes, and people
Speaker 3: are looking at you.
Speaker 1: Like what the fuck?
Speaker 3: These people lost their money and you're in a restaurant, Like,
Speaker 3: how do you live your life? If you go on
Speaker 3: a vacation, if you step but on an airplane, You're
Speaker 3: doing something wrong? Because so how does how do you live?
Speaker 3: But yet you are going to hopefully pay these people back?
Speaker 3: How do you live your everyday life? If you belong
Speaker 3: to a gym? How did you pay for the gym membership?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: How do you operate? What kind of car do you drive? Like?
Speaker 1: How do you justify all that? Yeah?
Speaker 2: So I think I'm really good at paying restitution. So
Speaker 2: every month, like literally every month, I write a check
Speaker 2: back to the investors that I owe, and I'm super
Speaker 2: transparent about like what I made that month. So I'm
Speaker 2: making this up. Let's say, man, one hundred dollars last month,
Speaker 2: Like all right, here's how I made it. And you
Speaker 2: know here's where it went, and here's how much.
Speaker 3: You guys, I'm just giving them like a newsletter. It's
Speaker 3: almost like it's almost like a newsletter.
Speaker 2: So it is what it is, right if I make
Speaker 2: ten million dollars or ten thousand dollars, like, here's how
Speaker 2: much they made, and like I just disclose it.
Speaker 3: So are you doing this because you're doing this or
Speaker 3: because you would leave required to do it.
Speaker 2: I'm legally required to pay a certain percentage, but I'm
Speaker 2: trying to go above and beyond that and do more.
Speaker 2: So like, for example, we are doing Fire Festival two again,
Speaker 2: and by we, there is a third party festival company
Speaker 2: who's in charge and not me, who's actually doing fire too,
Speaker 2: and they're going to give.
Speaker 1: I think it's such a viable brand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like if like people will come to Fire Festival
Speaker 2: too just to see what happens, like it to be
Speaker 2: part of that cultural moment, right exactly if they can
Speaker 2: do it and it's not me and I can like
Speaker 2: talk some shit and do some marketing and like maybe
Speaker 2: do something wild like at the event and like do
Speaker 2: like ability fire thing. That's cool. But they're actually in
Speaker 2: charge and they're giving a percentage of their business back
Speaker 2: to restitution. And that's like in addition to whatever I
Speaker 2: personally have to pay. So trying to find ways like
Speaker 2: that that are a viable way to you.
Speaker 3: Didn't have to do that. In other words, you own
Speaker 3: who owns the intellectual property for Fire? I do one
Speaker 3: percent of it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I license it to this festival company essentially
Speaker 2: to do the festival.
Speaker 1: And so are you so very interesting? Can you?
Speaker 3: Can you do Fire festival merchandise like you own Fire
Speaker 3: Festival and everything you could do and you're going to right.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Another licensing deal we did was with the Broadway
Speaker 2: Musical Company, So a company is producing a Fire Broadway musical.
Speaker 1: Similar deal of like what about a movie? What about
Speaker 1: scripted movie?
Speaker 2: I haven't done that yet. Hopefully after Fire to is successful,
Speaker 2: I think the redemption is probably a more interesting story.
Speaker 2: So knock on wood.
Speaker 3: But and will you will you vow here on this
Speaker 3: show that every project you ever do with Fire you
Speaker 3: will give those investors back a piece of it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, hundred percent. So it's in their interest to
Speaker 2: make Fire to work. There's no ask from them. But
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, cheers silently from the sideline, and
Speaker 2: you know when it works, it benefits everybody.
Speaker 3: That will be interesting if one day you pay them
Speaker 3: back with it, you're paying more than you took, right,
Speaker 3: you're going to.
Speaker 1: Make you want to make them money?
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, there's like, right, there's mandatory interest at it
Speaker 2: on top.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you exactly interest you.
Speaker 3: Want that, Like you should do a poet like a kid, Okay,
Speaker 3: so you you should have it. Be if you make
Speaker 3: over fifty million and you're gonna give them a kicker,
Speaker 3: like there's a kicker a bonus, you should really do that.
Speaker 3: And then so your honest personal goal is that you
Speaker 3: pay them all back plus a bonus, and that you're
Speaker 3: then able to go like personally apologize and say I
Speaker 3: made good, I recognize my actions, et cetera, and never'll.
Speaker 2: Take more than one festival. Let's say in five years
Speaker 2: after five fire Festival is a movie, a musical, whatever,
Speaker 2: like it might get there right like that.
Speaker 3: About twenty seven million with the right merch brand for
Speaker 3: fire Festival. Believe it or not, I would invest in that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not absurd, it's it's possible.
Speaker 3: No, I don't think it's I don't think I don't
Speaker 3: think it's five years I think if you did, if
Speaker 3: you had a merch brand and the festival and certain
Speaker 3: things like I don't know, like it's very like edgy,
Speaker 3: like BMX stuff, skateboard stuff, people that take chances and
Speaker 3: do stupid things like I'm a marketer too.
Speaker 2: But I think lean in, like lean into the recklessness
Speaker 2: of it, like you know fire.
Speaker 1: Represents, Yeah, but don't.
Speaker 3: You shouldn't lean into loving it and gloating it. You
Speaker 3: should be the conservative guy. But it works for brands
Speaker 3: like that type of shit, let's ski off of cliffs
Speaker 3: and stuff like that, in my opinion.
Speaker 2: Agreed.
Speaker 3: Well, I have to say, this is an unexpected interesting
Speaker 3: conversation and now I'm invested and I want to see
Speaker 3: what happens.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Yeah, thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Is there anything else you wanted to say? Talk about market?
Speaker 1: Get out there.
Speaker 2: I think I think it's cool that you know, I
Speaker 2: my start was seeing you to nightclub and thinking I
Speaker 2: was the coolest nineteen year old in the world being
Speaker 2: in the same room and come full circle now many
Speaker 2: years later and many many flaws and mistakes later, but
Speaker 2: it's wild to see this right of life and hopefully
Speaker 2: in thirteen more years we can have a different conversation
Speaker 2: than this one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and is the right that you want to say
Speaker 1: to all these people?
Speaker 2: I think too. I'm sure some of my investors are listening. Like,
Speaker 2: I've apologized to all you guys and I'm sorry, and uh,
Speaker 2: we're doing our best to pay you guys back and
Speaker 2: hopefully these entities pay off, so we're.
Speaker 1: To actually speak loud of the words.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, exactly, and that's it. Takes time, takes actions,
Speaker 2: and apologies are meaningless at this point. It's more about
Speaker 2: showing you guys the results.
Speaker 1: And what about your parents and your sister? Yeah, hopefully
Speaker 1: there listening, but I think they might be. So what
Speaker 1: do you want to say?
Speaker 2: Might be I think recognizing that the people who are
Speaker 2: punished the most were actually family and who were punished
Speaker 2: harder than me, harder than investors, harder than attendees or
Speaker 2: our family. They you know, have the emotional attachment and
Speaker 2: they ultimately got a worse punishment that I did.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and you weren't solitary confinement in ten years
Speaker 3: and you still think they got.
Speaker 1: A worse punishment for sure, for sure for ten months.
Speaker 3: Sorry, Okay, thank you so much, very interesting and thanks be.
Speaker 3: I can't wait till you get the thirty four million
Speaker 3: back plus plus thank you