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Speaker 1: Hello, how are you doing, uh At, Sam William Phelps, Matthew, Yes,

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Speaker 1: how you doing, Matthew? Good to talk to you. Same here.

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Speaker 1: That is the voice of a man who played a

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Speaker 1: very small but extremely pivotal role in getting the Stevenson

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Speaker 1: investigation moving toward a viable suspect. He's asked me not

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Speaker 1: to use his name because despite the events having occurred

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Speaker 1: nearly forty years ago, there is still an understandable fear

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Speaker 1: of being connected to a deadly aftermath that played out

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Speaker 1: years after the Stevenson murders. At the time, was the

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Speaker 1: youth leader at a church and uh I had taken

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Speaker 1: the the youth on a canoe trip and we went

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Speaker 1: to canoe the Whitewater. He's referring to the Whitewater River

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Speaker 1: in Indiana, just about an hour's drive from Bethel, Ohio.

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Speaker 1: And as we were canoeing down the river, we saw

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Speaker 1: a bag floating in the river, and you know, canoes

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Speaker 1: turned over, people lose stuff. We thought somebody had lost

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Speaker 1: their bag, so we picked it up, put it in

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Speaker 1: the canoe, finished out the trip. When we got back,

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Speaker 1: we had opened the bag and we saw the name

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Speaker 1: and the phone number inside the bag, so we started

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Speaker 1: calling and it just ring, ring, ring, no answer. Later

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Speaker 1: that evening I was at home watching the news, and

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Speaker 1: the news flash was there was a family that was

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Speaker 1: killed and and burned in a in the house. And

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Speaker 1: the name was the same as the name us calling.

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Speaker 1: That name was Linda Stevenson. It was July, just two

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Speaker 1: days after the fire when Linda's leather handbag was found

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Speaker 1: floating in the river, stuck on a large branch. Inside

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Speaker 1: the bag was a rolled up twenty dollar bill tucked

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Speaker 1: in the corner, and some loose papers, no keys, no wallet.

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Speaker 1: What stands out to me is the location seventy miles

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Speaker 1: from the crime scene, a person the water, and Linda's

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Speaker 1: name found inside. As I've said before, there are no

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Speaker 1: coincidences in murder, only connections. So I called the police

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Speaker 1: station right away, told them what happened. They came right up,

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Speaker 1: got the bag to me, pour ride down the police station,

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Speaker 1: question me about it. Then the next morning some detectives

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Speaker 1: called me back and asked me if I would be

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Speaker 1: willing to take the day and go with them to

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Speaker 1: the white Water and show show me the approxate location

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Speaker 1: where I picked it up. How did you feel about that?

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Speaker 1: Finding that bag of It was a little scary, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you know, I didn't know what my involvement really

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Speaker 1: was finding it, and you know how how that was

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Speaker 1: going to involve me with murderers or something like that.

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Speaker 1: But I was glad I did it. It was a

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Speaker 1: any good person or a decent person would know it's

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Speaker 1: the right thing to do. The handbag being found in

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Speaker 1: another state could have meant the killer or killers cross

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Speaker 1: state lines sometime after committing the homicides, which in turn

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Speaker 1: is what activated the FBI's involvement. While keeping in mind

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Speaker 1: the bags certainly could have floated a great distance. The

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Speaker 1: White Water River travels nowhere near Betheville, Ohio. That said,

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Speaker 1: the Claremont County Sheriff's Department had a new rather promising

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Speaker 1: focus Brookville, Indiana, previously on paper ghosts. There was some

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Speaker 1: pretty bad blood going on for a while. It was

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Speaker 1: getting out of hand. And that's god damn punk threatening

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Speaker 1: us with guns and ship. And now you can look

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Speaker 1: down on the floor and you can see the outline

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Speaker 1: of where her body was to the point where I

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Speaker 1: could see that she raised a hand. I could see it.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting, I think is there's two different caliber bullets.

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Speaker 1: You guys begin finding right. What does that tell you?

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Speaker 1: As a cop? Uh let lens? Thank to shooters. My

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Speaker 1: name is and William Phelps. I am an investigative journalist

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Speaker 1: and author of forty four true crime books. This is

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Speaker 1: season two of Paper Ghosts Burned. Now past the forty

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Speaker 1: eight hour mark. In the investigation, the police went back

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Speaker 1: to what they could confirm who was at the Stevenson's

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Speaker 1: house that night. After a successful July four weekend in

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Speaker 1: fireworks sales, the Stevenson family returned from a celebratory dinner

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Speaker 1: to their home around ten thirty pm. After saying goodbye

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Speaker 1: to her stepdad Billy, mom Linda, uncle Lettie, and her

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Speaker 1: five year old brother, Billy Jr. Carol Thompson recalls what

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Speaker 1: happened as she and her young daughter were about to

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Speaker 1: head out. As I was getting ready to leave and

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Speaker 1: I was gathering Shannon off. I was getting ready to

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Speaker 1: walk out the door, and as I got to the foyer,

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Speaker 1: the doorbell rang or they knocked. I don't remember how

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Speaker 1: it went down, but opened the door. Ron Thomas is

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Speaker 1: standing there. Ron Thomas was a close family friend of

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Speaker 1: Billy and Lynda Stevenson. Billy had known the guy for

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Speaker 1: at least ten years, having bought and sold silver and

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Speaker 1: gold and other types of jewelry from and with him.

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Speaker 1: He was Steve's befriend. Hello, I remember Incoln, you know.

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Speaker 1: Ron was like one of the coolest guys I've ever met.

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Speaker 1: I remember and bouncing little Billy you know on his knee. Um.

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Speaker 1: Ron was a good guy. Ron was a big duke

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Speaker 1: six three or so. He had the seventies porn style mustache,

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Speaker 1: brown hair, solid build. He, Billy and Linda often hung

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Speaker 1: out at the house together, along with Ron's wife, and

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Speaker 1: he stayed in the doorway. That's nothing unusual, you know,

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Speaker 1: nothing unusual. So I haven't you know, step in, come in.

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Speaker 1: But what is unusual in my mind, okay, is there's

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Speaker 1: a man behind him with him, steps in with him.

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Speaker 1: I was told it was uncommon for strangers just to

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Speaker 1: pop in at the Stevenson house, though when invited over,

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Speaker 1: Billy and Linda opened their home and their hearts close friends.

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Speaker 1: This is my mother's house, okay. I wouldn't bring a

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Speaker 1: stranger to my mother's house, me her own. And you

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Speaker 1: don't remember anyone calling and saying they were coming over

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Speaker 1: while you guys were there. Definitely didn't never Ron. That

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Speaker 1: would be normal for Ron to just show up, that

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Speaker 1: would be normal. I found it odd that he brought

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Speaker 1: this guy. But I find out later that this guy

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Speaker 1: has been with Ron a couple of times at various shops,

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Speaker 1: mostly my dad's, and supposedly this guy's his bodyguard. But me,

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Speaker 1: I don't know this. And and even even so, Ron

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Speaker 1: showing up unannounced does not surprise me at all. He's

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Speaker 1: a friend, a very close friend, but the stranger to me,

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Speaker 1: just that just rocked my world to the point where

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Speaker 1: I needed a point of saying hi to the guy

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Speaker 1: because I wanted him to speak. I needed, you know, something,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what I needed, but I needed something.

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Speaker 1: Ron comes in and I'm like, hey, Ron, has it going?

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Speaker 1: Hey Mom, Ron's here, And I'm like Hi to the guy,

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Speaker 1: and the guy says hi to me, and then I'm

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Speaker 1: almost like, okay, guys gotta go kind of attitude like

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Speaker 1: I'm going to pass them and going out the door,

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Speaker 1: right but Ron stops me. It's almost it was weird. Really,

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Speaker 1: he stops me and start talking to me, and all

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Speaker 1: of the BLUEY asked me, how's Jim, how's Jim doing,

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Speaker 1: which I found so weird. But now that these two,

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Speaker 1: you know, have this little pot thing going, I guess

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Speaker 1: that's normal, but I still found it very weird. The

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Speaker 1: gym that Carol's referring to as her husband, James Dean Thompson.

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Speaker 1: And what she meant by this little pot thing was

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Speaker 1: that Ron Thomas and her husband were quote business partners.

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Speaker 1: Ron provided a product, Jim sold it. Nonetheless, Carol mentioned

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Speaker 1: this short, stocky guys being Ron's bodyguard. So the question

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Speaker 1: then becomes, why would Ron Thomas need a bodyguard? So

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Speaker 1: Ron wasn't the type of guy to ask you how

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Speaker 1: your husband? God, No, absolutely not. Now he was my

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Speaker 1: parents friend, he wasn't mine. So like I could see

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Speaker 1: him saying how are you? It just as a common courtesy,

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Speaker 1: but no to really know. But he did. He he

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Speaker 1: stopped me literally because I was going to go out

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Speaker 1: the door. And did this guy say hi back to

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Speaker 1: you his buddy. And I don't remember it exactly, to

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Speaker 1: be honest with you, but I remember him replying. I

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Speaker 1: think it was a gruff hey with a nod of

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Speaker 1: the head. I remember had the kod of the head.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea who he was, no idea at all.

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Speaker 1: Detective Tom Cooper, the lead investigator on the Stevenson murders,

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Speaker 1: was in the process of tracking down Stevenson family friend

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Speaker 1: Ron Thomas. They needed more intel about that other man

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Speaker 1: with Ron, so Cooper showed Carol a series of photographs,

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Speaker 1: like a lineup of bad guys from the area to

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Speaker 1: see if she could recognize anybody. Carol pointed to one

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Speaker 1: photo of a man with a mustache and said, I

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Speaker 1: think this is probably him, but I'm not sure. She

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Speaker 1: just couldn't remember. So the Sheriff's department approached Carroll with

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Speaker 1: an idea. Was she willing to undergo investigative forensic hypnosis

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Speaker 1: in order to try and recall what the man looked like?

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Speaker 1: Started with we had a whole train to the darkness

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Speaker 1: best the entirely the idea of doing this relates to

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Speaker 1: you in hypnosis, being able to convert thanks from your

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Speaker 1: subconscious never to you're conscious. According to the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice quote, the use of hypnosis to refresh

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Speaker 1: memory is a widely accepted therapeutic tool in helping various professions,

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Speaker 1: but its use in a forensic setting is less widely accepted,

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Speaker 1: even though it can be a viable and effective technique.

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Speaker 1: That said, investigative hypnosis itself is controversial. Some believe it

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Speaker 1: works while others do not. In the world of law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: its success has been demonstrated in many cases, but its

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Speaker 1: use as a valuable forensic tool is generally debated and

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Speaker 1: categorized under a banner of quote junk science. Play for you,

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Speaker 1: just take a couple of real deep breaths, I just

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Speaker 1: want to pluck the finger, Concentrate on the typ my fingers.

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Speaker 1: My finger comes closer and closer. At some point you

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Speaker 1: kind of start to feel more and more relized, and

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Speaker 1: just notice the ridges, the lines, the finger grip. The

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Speaker 1: problems I have seen with hypnosis as a forensic tool

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Speaker 1: begin when the case winds up in a courtroom. Anything

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Speaker 1: learned through hypnosis will be challenged, JE disbelieved and argued.

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Speaker 1: Some states allow information obtained under hypnosis as evidence, most

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Speaker 1: do not. The major concern is that because the procedure

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Speaker 1: itself is leading, hypnosis can plant false memories in the brain,

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Speaker 1: and the subject being hypnotized likely doesn't even realize it.

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Speaker 1: What we wish to do now it's on the count five.

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Speaker 1: I want you to imagine as you're now sitting in

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Speaker 1: your chair, wanting to tee recording of the advance that

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Speaker 1: occurred evening unt a lot of fifth qualify count Will

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Speaker 1: you see everything it's possible to see? Just like that scene? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I m s. This audio from an old school real

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Speaker 1: to real tape is part of a cash Carol Thompson

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Speaker 1: and her daughter Shannon acquired and handed off to me.

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Speaker 1: No one outside of law enforcement has ever heard them,

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Speaker 1: not even Carol or Shannon. Many parts of this investigation

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Speaker 1: were fully resolved before I ever came into it, but

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Speaker 1: hearing the case unfold in real time gives me a

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Speaker 1: unique perspective, along with an opportunity to try to find

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Speaker 1: new information and answers. Unfortunately, forty years of time and

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Speaker 1: temperature have taken their toll on a good portion of

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Speaker 1: the tape, and the audio quality is rough as you

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Speaker 1: can hear. Where do you see first? Watch? Yeah? Okay,

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Speaker 1: tell me about his heris. Carol's responses are difficult to

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Speaker 1: make out, but she was able to recall that the

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Speaker 1: stranger's hair was brown and messed up on top our

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Speaker 1: is and the length was past the nape of his neck.

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Speaker 1: For Detective Tom Cooper, what he hoped for from Carol's

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Speaker 1: forensic hypnosis examination was not evidence per se, but just

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Speaker 1: a clue to locating that mystery man. The background room

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Speaker 1: atmosphere on the hypnosis tape has this eerie, espionage like

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Speaker 1: interrogation vibe to it. I'm going to touch your left shoulder,

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Speaker 1: which will assist you in relaxing and also assist you

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Speaker 1: in performing to zoolands. It's as if I am listening

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Speaker 1: to something nobody outside of those involved was ever supposed

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Speaker 1: to hear. One to M three. As the tape continues,

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Speaker 1: the audio doesn't improve much, but Carol continued to recall

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Speaker 1: physical details about the stranger. She described them as white

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Speaker 1: with a dark complexion, in his late thirties early forties,

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Speaker 1: between five nine and five eleven, with wavy, medium brown hair,

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Speaker 1: a mustache, brown eyes, pudgy nose, heavy build, with a

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Speaker 1: big belly. Eyewitness testimony is often scrutinized for this very reason.

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Speaker 1: Carol looked at this man close up as she was

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Speaker 1: walking out the door, yet describes him differently in several

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Speaker 1: documents and my interviews with her. What I think is,

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Speaker 1: at times her memory is combining both men she saw together. Now,

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Speaker 1: I want you to see that you're able to see

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Speaker 1: any clothing. Comparing what Carol told law enforcement immediately after

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Speaker 1: the murders, what she said during her hypnosis session, and

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Speaker 1: what she said to me over the years is so important.

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Speaker 1: Describe that man for me. Okay, he's supper munches shorter

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Speaker 1: than Ron. Now I know for a fact Ron six too,

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Speaker 1: So I'm gonna peg this guy. It's pretty short, so

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna pay him in like five nine. And he

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Speaker 1: has brown, unkept hair, so it's very messy, and it

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Speaker 1: was a little overse ears and dark skin and husky

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Speaker 1: a husky build. The in hypnth Highs was really weird.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is really weird. Um. The only thing I

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Speaker 1: can really say about him being hypnotized, it kind of

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Speaker 1: makes you release any kind of fear. A fear Errol

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Speaker 1: had to let go of at the time was her

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Speaker 1: initial suspicion and accusation toward her family's business rival, Jim Riley.

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Speaker 1: Despite investigators being initially interested in Jim Riley as a

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Speaker 1: major suspect, the guy had an alibi. His wife, Wanda,

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Speaker 1: assured police he was at home with her the entire night.

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Speaker 1: I was so so ashamed of myself really for even

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Speaker 1: thinking that, but it really was. I'm trying to justify it,

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Speaker 1: but it really was because of the phone call. If

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Speaker 1: I hadn't gotten that phone call from him telling me

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Speaker 1: that he was gonna come over, and you know, and

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Speaker 1: just the way he said it, I guess threw me off.

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Speaker 1: And to this day I feel terrible. I've never I've

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Speaker 1: never seen James since then. But if I if I

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Speaker 1: ran into him, if I recognized him, I would apologize.

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Speaker 1: I really would, because I really did believe it's him.

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Speaker 1: I would have laid down my soul that it was him.

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Speaker 1: As firefighters waged battle against the flames engulfing the Stevenson's house,

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Speaker 1: a patrol officer working the overnight shift in Amelia, a

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Speaker 1: neighboring town to Bethel, pulled over two men in a

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Speaker 1: pickup truck speeding down Route One. At the time of

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Speaker 1: the stop, nothing from the encounter seemed off to the

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Speaker 1: officer two men speeding, routine traffic stop, but nine days later,

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Speaker 1: giving no reason why he waited so long, that same

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Speaker 1: officer contacted the Claremont County Sheriff's Department with information that

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Speaker 1: would change the course of Tom Cooper's investigation. In one

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Speaker 1: of the unearthed audio recordings I've obtained, you can hear

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Speaker 1: the officer recall how the events unfolded that night. I

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Speaker 1: had a huge standard next to the watching the rally.

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Speaker 1: They said he was really when on the street, and

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Speaker 1: I think I said to ring Or twice and went

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Speaker 1: on fifty five and went twot two. I think I

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Speaker 1: wanted in two. The patrol officer stopped the truck, which

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Speaker 1: had kept driving for about a quarter mile before finally

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Speaker 1: pulling over, which makes me wonder what were they doing

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Speaker 1: during that time? And then when I got out, I

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Speaker 1: didn't call it in it in writing down. It came

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Speaker 1: right out of truck back guys, So I got out

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Speaker 1: so I could be staying at up based. Basically, in

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Speaker 1: light of today's policing standards, this would seem absurd, dangerous,

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Speaker 1: and out of touch with the reality of police work.

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Speaker 1: But look in night in such a small town, cops

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Speaker 1: didn't think too much of it. If someone they just

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Speaker 1: pulled over got out of their car and approached them,

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Speaker 1: more than likely, in fact, the cop could have known

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Speaker 1: the guy. The one characteristic the officer did recall with

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Speaker 1: certainty was the driver's height approximately the same as his

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Speaker 1: but not quite as tall as the cops six ft

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Speaker 1: to frame. He was hapty, what kind of just stressed slope.

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Speaker 1: I remember, I can't remember what he was wearing, but

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Speaker 1: I remember he had like Roby looked to him. You know,

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Speaker 1: they can make them to the bars somewhere all that

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Speaker 1: or something. Yet but he didn't be toxic you at all.

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Speaker 1: I remember when he turned. Yeah, definitely had like a skinning.

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Speaker 1: The Great designed something he had like like a blood blister.

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Speaker 1: And but yeah, where the white people? Because I was

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Speaker 1: thinking that, yeah, it probably hearts. I said that myself.

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Speaker 1: You know when I seen I just asked him for

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Speaker 1: Great's license. He told him what he was doing and

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Speaker 1: his ascens and because I just a soon as it

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Speaker 1: came back, I heard the passing your door open and

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Speaker 1: clothes Okay, yeah, I thought maybe because I was gonna

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Speaker 1: get out. So I kind of looked over going over

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Speaker 1: around the back of the truck, kind of watched that

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Speaker 1: side of this year he wouldn't coming out on or something. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I thought, I figured maybe I want to do that

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Speaker 1: can of beer or something you vinent late? And then

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Speaker 1: got his operator's license. I woman have a seat back

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Speaker 1: in the truck. I looked at his license. I was,

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Speaker 1: but I don't remember his name. I don't remember the

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Speaker 1: address or anything. The officer recalled the driver's quote, messy,

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Speaker 1: dark hair. He never bothered to look at the passenger,

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Speaker 1: which spoke really to how routine he felt the stop was.

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Speaker 1: And he could not recall the color of the truck,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I can't really remember by the trump

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Speaker 1: is it hid and nana tags on They're white tags,

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Speaker 1: screen numbers or letters or whatever they were. And I

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Speaker 1: walked back up to this truck and just told him, yes,

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Speaker 1: I know, it's late, you know, in Carl the route,

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Speaker 1: just trying to slow down in the games. By the

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Speaker 1: time the officer got home that night, he was well

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Speaker 1: aware of the Stevenson fire because he had heard the

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Speaker 1: fire alarms go off about fifteen minutes before he pulled

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Speaker 1: that truck over. It still meant nothing to him since

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Speaker 1: it was in a different town, so he never thought

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Speaker 1: to report the incident, that is until the local news

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Speaker 1: reported Linda's bag had been found in an Indiana river.

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Speaker 1: Something clicked. Talking to law enforcement and reading through the reports,

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Speaker 1: it's clear that had the Amelia police officer followed procedure

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Speaker 1: to a t that night, he would have been murder

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Speaker 1: victim number five. After corroborating several details about the truck

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Speaker 1: pulled over in Amelia on the night of the murders,

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Speaker 1: the Sheriff's department was confident the two men were stevenson

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Speaker 1: family friend Ron Thomas, and the man he'd brought to

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Speaker 1: their home just hours earlier. That same man, Carol Thompson,

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Speaker 1: had never seen before. What's more, the last place Ron

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Speaker 1: Thomas was known to live Brookville, Indiana, the same town

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Speaker 1: where Linda Stevenson's bag had been found in the White

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Speaker 1: Water River. In the next episode of Paper Ghosts, I

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Speaker 1: said you left eleven thirty. He said, yeah, I left

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Speaker 1: the eleventh, Like, oh okay. So we get off the

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Speaker 1: phone and then bam. In my head, It's just I

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Speaker 1: keep hearing that in my head, What the hell? Why

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Speaker 1: did you lie to me? Didn't care for My grandmother

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Speaker 1: used to say, you get that good feeling, Well, when

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Speaker 1: I get to do it feeling, it say it steaks

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Speaker 1: waiting nine percent the time he gets the traffic like

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Speaker 1: Middell Brookville and stops the traffic light. And we took

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Speaker 1: him down between us and the FBI and all everything. Ever,

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Speaker 1: how did that go oh it was. One person in

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Speaker 1: Brookly said, I've never seen some many guns out on

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Speaker 1: one time. Paper Ghosts is written and executive produced by

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Speaker 1: me and William Phelps and I Heart executive producer Christina Everett,

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Speaker 1: with script consultant Matthew Riddle, audio editing and mixing by

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Speaker 1: a Booze Afar thanks to Will Pearson at I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: Series theme number four four two is written and performed

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Speaker 1: by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney. For more podcasts from

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Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows