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Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by HKX, Asia's ETF marketplace. Well,

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Speaker 1: you'll find a gateway to liquidity and a diverse selection

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Speaker 1: of opportunities across asset classes, sectors and themes in Asia

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Speaker 1: and beyond. Search HKX to learn more.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good nights wherever

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Speaker 2: you're joining us in this vast, beautiful planets.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Tiger Money, a Bloomberg podcast about investing stocks, commodities, bonds,

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Speaker 2: crypto and everything in between, with a focus on ETFs

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Speaker 2: in Asia and beyond. I'm your host, David Inglass, Sloomberg's

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Speaker 2: non award winning journalist, chief market editor for the Asia Pacific,

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Speaker 2: anchor of The China Show, and many many more. I'm

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Speaker 2: joined by my co pilot, Rebecca Sin She's head of

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Speaker 2: Asia Pacific ETF Research at Bloomberg Intelligence. Of course, a

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Speaker 2: prop research department, five hundred analysts working across the world,

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Speaker 2: covering more more than two thousand companies, ninety industries, and

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Speaker 2: one hundred market measures. And of course is a kind

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Speaker 2: reminder for everyone, because this is Tiger Money, this conversation

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Speaker 2: is strictly non confidential, so if you like what you hear,

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Speaker 2: don't forget to subscribe, like and of course to share.

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Speaker 3: And at this point let me bring in my copilot Rebecca.

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Speaker 4: Thank you David. Today we have Ophelia Snyder, who is

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Speaker 4: the co founder and president of twenty one shares, the

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Speaker 4: world's leader in providing access to crypto through simple and

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Speaker 4: easy to use products like ETFs and ETPs. She's won

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Speaker 4: numerous awards, including Forbes thirty Under thirty and was nominated

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Speaker 4: as one as Bilan's Top one hundred bankers of Switzerland.

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Speaker 4: She was born and raised in Italy and the United

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Speaker 4: States and is fluent in both Italian and French. She

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Speaker 4: has a degree in marine biology from Stanford and used

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Speaker 4: to be a documentary filmmaker. Welcome Ophelia, and we're so

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Speaker 4: excited to have you on Tiger Money.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. And I have

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Speaker 5: to say it's quite an introd.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we noticed Italian and French. That's what half

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Speaker 2: of the Swiss languages you got there.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I'm missing German and Ramach working on the other two.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well glass is always half full, right, so I

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Speaker 2: just had a glance at my screens right now I'm

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Speaker 2: just looking at prices across the crypto market.

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Speaker 3: You guys must be swimming in success.

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Speaker 5: Things are going very well. We've seen a lot of

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Speaker 5: interest and engagement in our products on a global basis,

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Speaker 5: the US, Europe, Australia. It's been really quite wonderful to

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Speaker 5: see we hit a all time high in terms of

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Speaker 5: assets under management for the business. Quite recently. We've passed

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Speaker 5: seven and a half billion in assets globally, So things

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Speaker 5: have been going very well.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so seven and a half billion, what's the hot take?

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Speaker 2: The short term outlook on the market, and also aum.

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Speaker 5: Short term outlook is that we're still really early, which

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Speaker 5: is something I think people are forgetting right now. They're

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Speaker 5: seeing the massive assets coming into us product. You know,

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Speaker 5: some of the most successful ETF launches of all time

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Speaker 5: individually and certainly the most successful ETF launch of all

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Speaker 5: time when taken and aggregate. It's still really early. Most

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Speaker 5: institutions still not in this space, most intermediaries still not

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Speaker 5: investing in this space. This is a lot of early

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Speaker 5: adopter money still, which means that the market has quite

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Speaker 5: a way to run still and we're still in quite

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Speaker 5: early innings from a market perspective.

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Speaker 4: So if we shift geared to the product offering that

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Speaker 4: you have, you are, if not the only one that

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Speaker 4: really has a global offering from funds in North America

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Speaker 4: to Europe to Asia. And so you mentioned you have

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Speaker 4: more than seven billion in the US. Walk us through

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Speaker 4: your product offering because I know you guys have everything

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Speaker 4: from bitcoin, ether, Solana Ripple to even Stellar. You've partnered

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Speaker 4: up with global Xit in Australia, you have ARC in

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Speaker 4: the US. So walk us through your product offering because

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Speaker 4: you do have a very diverse mix and you're one

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Speaker 4: of the first to this space.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so each market is a little bit We started

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Speaker 5: our business in Europe. That's by far the broadest product offering,

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Speaker 5: largely because there's flexibility from regulatory perspective to do so

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Speaker 5: when we run about forty different products in the European market,

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Speaker 5: covering single assets, staked assets, index products, shorts. We even

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Speaker 5: run a product that that's bitcoin and gold in that market.

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Speaker 5: And what we've really seen there that's been interesting is

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Speaker 5: they've had these products for quite a bit longer, but

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Speaker 5: there's a lot more interest in that long tail of

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Speaker 5: alternatives than you might think. Like, for example, we run

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Speaker 5: a when I checked this yesterday, nine hundred and forty

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Speaker 5: million dollars salon a product which is surprising for people,

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Speaker 5: but there's actually a lot of interest beyond those sort

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Speaker 5: of top two names. Our first product that we have

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Speaker 5: a Breck to market hit was actually an index product,

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Speaker 5: and so I think that's really what we see in

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Speaker 5: Europe is really a lot of depth of bench, a

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Speaker 5: lot of interests sort of across the line, and quite

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Speaker 5: a bit of appetite for alts that may come as

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Speaker 5: a surprise to people. In the US market, we're managing

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Speaker 5: just over three and a half billion in assets that

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Speaker 5: we have six products in market today in the US,

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Speaker 5: and we obviously have a spot bitcoin product under the

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Speaker 5: name air KB, but we also offer a digital asset

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Speaker 5: suite of actively managed crypto products that are futures based

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Speaker 5: both bitcoin and ethereum, as well as a multi asset strategy,

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Speaker 5: and then we're obviously working on bringing a spot etherorium

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Speaker 5: product to market in the US. In Australia we operate

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Speaker 5: two products, physical Bitcoin and physical ethereum, which we've had

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Speaker 5: for actually quite a number of years.

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Speaker 4: It's definitely a very broad and diverse product offering based

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Speaker 4: on your global product offering, do you find different investor

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Speaker 4: demand based on the region, So for instance, there's different

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Speaker 4: demand coming out of Asia versus Europe versus US, and

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Speaker 4: do you see any arbitrage between that? So, for instance,

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Speaker 4: one of the things we try and promote in Hong Kong,

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Speaker 4: we just launched spot Bitcoin BTF and spot Ethereum BTF

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Speaker 4: and so a lot of people can now trade that

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Speaker 4: during Asian hours. But based on your product offering, have

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Speaker 4: you found any difference in behavior in investors?

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Speaker 5: So there are a few differences actually across the board.

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Speaker 5: It hasn't been as much of a hegemony as you

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Speaker 5: might think. I think the US market is interesting in

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Speaker 5: certain in terms of how it's changed the landscape, and

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Speaker 5: it's not the way most people think from what we've

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Speaker 5: seen on a global basis. What the US did is

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Speaker 5: it removed a form of regulatory overhang on the underlying asset.

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Speaker 5: So the question was what is the US going to

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Speaker 5: do about bitcoin question mark? And that was an outstanding

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Speaker 5: issue for a very long time and formed part of

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Speaker 5: how investors were coming up with their thesis in the sector. Right.

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Speaker 5: That was a material risk factor in terms of how

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Speaker 5: they were allocating, how they were thinking about it, what

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Speaker 5: pricing looked like, how confident they felt in that pricing,

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Speaker 5: And you should have always had this outstanding risk somewhere

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Speaker 5: in the part of the pun somewhere in the ether.

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Speaker 5: And I think that's changed, and now that's also changed

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Speaker 5: for ethereum, and it's shifting the way we see investor

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Speaker 5: behavior in other markets, not necessarily purely on it from

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Speaker 5: a trading perspective, because quite frankly, a lot of people

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Speaker 5: trade on a lot of different markets, and the market

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Speaker 5: makers that are offering liquidity in these products have a

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Speaker 5: tendency to serve out of a global desk, which means

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Speaker 5: pricing is pretty consistent. It's certainly helpful to have assets

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Speaker 5: in your local time zone, but you very clearly see

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Speaker 5: people trading, you know, Asian investors trading US products, American

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Speaker 5: investors trading products offshore, especially as you get to more

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Speaker 5: sort of sophisticated investors versus retail. I think the biggest

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Speaker 5: change has really been that regulatory shift, because now that's

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Speaker 5: not part of the equation, and it changes what people's

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Speaker 5: appetite is. What does the size of allocation look like?

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Speaker 5: How much risk are you really willing to take on? Here.

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Speaker 4: So if we touch upon the regulatory framework, do you

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Speaker 4: think there's any differences between Europe US, Asia? And are

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Speaker 4: there any feed differences?

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Speaker 5: It's night and day different. The European market has a

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Speaker 5: lot more regulatory clarity for crypto assets than quite frankly,

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Speaker 5: either than most of Asia and certainly the United States.

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Speaker 5: And they've had it for years, which means there's a

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Speaker 5: very well established precedent, like Switzerland has had roles about

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Speaker 5: what crypto assets are and how to tax them how

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Speaker 5: I think about them. The arrival of MEKA is really

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Speaker 5: important from that perspective. There's a certain level of comprehensiveness

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Speaker 5: that comes with that which is really exciting. The US

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Speaker 5: is still quite far from that. I think at least

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Speaker 5: having some clear definitions for bitcoin and now also a

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Speaker 5: little bit more clarity on ethereum is helpful, but we're

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Speaker 5: still quite a ways away from something comprehensive. As you

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Speaker 5: start to look towards Asia, I think Japan has done

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Speaker 5: a particularly interesting job with how they've done regulations for

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Speaker 5: crypto assets, and they've done quite a bit of work

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Speaker 5: around how crypto assets can be offered and managed in country.

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Speaker 5: It's quite a different setup than other jurisdictions, but there

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Speaker 5: is something and it's meaningful. I think Hong Kong has

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Speaker 5: now also really moved in that direction, not just in

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Speaker 5: the context of btfs, but also virtual asset provider infrastructure

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Speaker 5: and sort of registration and regulation within Hong Kong is

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Speaker 5: actually quite interesting from that perspective, step forward in terms

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Speaker 5: of providing clarity to people who are operating in these spaces,

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Speaker 5: and I think that's really exciting. I'm hopeful that we're

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Speaker 5: going to see more of that, especially as you're seeing

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Speaker 5: some of these big financial centers start to have a

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Speaker 5: bit more clarity.

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Speaker 2: Right, Do we now have a better idea what kind

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Speaker 2: of asset crypto is simply in terms of how it

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Speaker 2: price reacts to certain things. And simply the reason I

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Speaker 2: ask you that is you mentioned earlier adoption. Earlier, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot more money coming in and I'm wondering what

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Speaker 2: correlations look like to other financial securities. Right, So, some

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Speaker 2: of the pushback I get, for example, on our shows

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Speaker 2: when I talk to your typical byside manager would be

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Speaker 2: I don't know how to model it. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if it's a hedge, I don't know if it's a

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Speaker 2: risk assets and I'm wondering whether this inflow of money

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Speaker 2: has somewhat helped or hampered that sort of discussion.

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Speaker 5: I think it's helped. I think the level of education

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Speaker 5: is a lot higher, so people are developing like a

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Speaker 5: specific thesis for the space. I think that's something we

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Speaker 5: pride ourselves on, is doing a a lot of research

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Speaker 5: and giving it all away for free, specifically to help

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Speaker 5: people get a handle on how to think about valuation,

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Speaker 5: how to think about portfolio allocation, how to think about

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Speaker 5: how does a sas that behave and what does it mean.

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Speaker 5: And I think that's something we've been doing since we

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Speaker 5: started the company. It was actually one of our really

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Speaker 5: like founding principles, was this idea of education and of

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Speaker 5: welcoming people into a space that they might not feel

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Speaker 5: super comfortable with upfront. We've seen a couple of interesting

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Speaker 5: things in the last few years, like, for example, there

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Speaker 5: was a correlation between bitcoin and regional bank stocks, actually

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Speaker 5: in an inverse correlation between bitcoin and regional bank stocks

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Speaker 5: during the regional banking crisis. That's really interesting. It's actually

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Speaker 5: actively being used as a hedge in the US. I

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Speaker 5: think we've seen depending on what's happening with tech. You

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Speaker 5: can sometimes see some correlation there, but it's not super strong,

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Speaker 5: and I think one of the interesting things is that

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Speaker 5: correlation does shift over time. One of the things that

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Speaker 5: I am seeing in particular, which is really interesting from

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Speaker 5: that perspective, is that people are starting to understand how

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Speaker 5: crypto actually works because crypto isn't one thing. Maybe that's

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Speaker 5: part of where people confused and get lost. If you

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Speaker 5: take crypto, you should actually split it into three things.

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Speaker 5: That's a mental model that I use. You've got currencies

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Speaker 5: like Bitcoin, which are basically a supply and demand function,

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Speaker 5: and that's drove all currencies. They are valued with a

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Speaker 5: supply and demand function, and this is obviously a supply

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Speaker 5: constrained currency model, right. If you think about ethereum, there's

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Speaker 5: sort of a different category there, and it's actually a

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Speaker 5: very different product. These look a lot more like commodities,

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Speaker 5: and you can basically lump all smart contracts, platforms into

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Speaker 5: this category. And the reason they're commodities, they're actually a

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Speaker 5: primary input in the production of something else. The best

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Speaker 5: analogy I've come up with so far is ethereum is

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Speaker 5: like buying a prepaid phone card, except instead of using

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Speaker 5: a phone line you're actually using a supercomputer to do

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Speaker 5: a specific thing and produce a specific thing for you. Now,

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Speaker 5: what that capacity looks like, How constrained is that capacity?

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Speaker 5: There's an economy that underlies that, right, which is how

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Speaker 5: many transactions are people doing? What does utilization look like?

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Speaker 5: How valuable is that amount of time of the supercomputer's

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Speaker 5: processing power, How valuable is the network and the economy

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Speaker 5: that surrounds that. It's sort of like imagine if you

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Speaker 5: could have purchased a piece of HTTP and like the

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Speaker 5: protocol level of the Internet. And so what you're saying is,

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Speaker 5: as Internet utilization goes up, you actually need more units

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Speaker 5: of what essentially amount to compute. What causes more transactions

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Speaker 5: to happen. Well, that's actually more final products being used

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Speaker 5: and more final services being used, right, I mean you

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Speaker 5: use ethereum to toplay a smart contract. That smart contract

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Speaker 5: could be used in a video game, it could be

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Speaker 5: used in a financial process, it could be used for

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Speaker 5: file storage, which actually brings us to the third category,

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Speaker 5: which is actual finished products, which is really what people

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Speaker 5: should be thinking about when they think about tokens.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 5: That is where you get chain link and the use

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Speaker 5: of on chain data that's where you get everything you've

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Speaker 5: ever heard of in DeFi, that's where you get gaming

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Speaker 5: cell phone plans that use decentralized networks. You get, quite

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Speaker 5: frankly like a very broad range of final products, by

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Speaker 5: the way, including NFTs. You can buy a bord ap

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Speaker 5: or a pudge penguin and that's a similar type of

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Speaker 5: final product in some way. And so once you start

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Speaker 5: dividing the world like this becomes a lot easier to model,

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Speaker 5: because actually what you're modeling is either monetary policy and

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Speaker 5: supply and demand dynamics for a currency, or you're modeling

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Speaker 5: essentially sublime demand dynamics for a commodity. I think once

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Speaker 5: you start thinking about things in that context, for me,

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Speaker 5: it's been probably the easiest mental model for how to

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Speaker 5: think about these different assets and how to value them.

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Speaker 4: So I like how you divided it into three buckets,

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Speaker 4: so currency, commodities, and the final products. Is that correct?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 4: So if we focus on the US market, only a

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Speaker 4: handful of people have filed for a spot ether ETF,

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Speaker 4: so I guess that goes into your commodity buckets. In

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Speaker 4: terms of demand, it's ultimately a much smaller market. The

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Speaker 4: ether market's only four hundred and sixty billion versus the

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Speaker 4: bitcoin market which is one point four trillion. What do

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Speaker 4: you expect the demand to be? And do you see

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Speaker 4: the fee compression happening so similar to when spot bitcoin launch,

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Speaker 4: you know, there was a few war where do you

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Speaker 4: see that going.

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Speaker 5: Demand for ethereum will look different for a variety of reasons.

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Speaker 5: And I think the first one which people forget and

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Speaker 5: they're all holding it up of like, how's it going

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Speaker 5: to perform relative to bitcoin? But the bitcoin products are

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Speaker 5: the most successful ETF launch of all time on a

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Speaker 5: standalone basis. The all four of the top four performing

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Speaker 5: tickers in terms of asset gathering are all in the

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Speaker 5: top twenty launches of all time in the ETF space,

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Speaker 5: four of them that is, including ours, including air canbeen

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Speaker 5: And that's wonderful, But that is a completely not realistic

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Speaker 5: bar for an EYTF launch. That is not a thing, right,

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Speaker 5: that is.

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Speaker 3: Not ruined it to some extent.

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Speaker 5: This is this is not a real comparison, right, And

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Speaker 5: I think that's something that the market's just not understanding yet. Yes,

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Speaker 5: it's going to in all likelihood be less than the

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Speaker 5: most successful ETF launch of all time by a really

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Speaker 5: healthy margin. By the way, despite the fact that there

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Speaker 5: were so many names that launched right so even if

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Speaker 5: you individually, it's still some of the best launches of

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Speaker 5: all time, and aggregate, it blows everything out of the water.

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Speaker 5: That cannot possibly be the bar for success, and I

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Speaker 5: think that's something that we just need to kind of

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Speaker 5: move away from as a concept.

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Speaker 4: Just to add some color for our audience. There were

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Speaker 4: eleven ETFs that launched on the exact same time in

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Speaker 4: January this year, and so to Ophelia's point, it was

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Speaker 4: one of the most successful launches because of the share,

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Speaker 4: hype and demand for this product and when the first

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Speaker 4: filing occurred. It took almost ten years from the first

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Speaker 4: filing to when the ETF actually launched, so huge demand,

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Speaker 4: huge interest, and then a lot of people compared that

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Speaker 4: to the Hong Kong market, and in Hong Kong when

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Speaker 4: we launched spot bitcoin and ether ETF and was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: it's not going to be as big as the US

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Speaker 4: and from a scale perspective, there's still both around one

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Speaker 4: percent of the etfaum that we have. So for instance,

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Speaker 4: in Hong Kong, we expected to reach roughly one billion

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Speaker 4: in assets in the next one to two years, we're

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Speaker 4: at roughly five hundred million, and so when you compare

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Speaker 4: different regions, you have to scale it back to the

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Speaker 4: size of that ETF or ETP market. But it was

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Speaker 4: one of the most successful launches. And to put that

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Speaker 4: into comparison, the largest ETF launch globally ever occurred this

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Speaker 4: year in Taiwan with Yuenta High Dividend ETF that got

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Speaker 4: five point five billion on the first day, and so

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Speaker 4: that's a record amount. The second one next to that

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Speaker 4: is only in the one billion, and so this was

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Speaker 4: a very successful launch.

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Speaker 5: And I think it's hard right, Like there's not a

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Speaker 5: real comparison. That's part of the issue. So do I

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Speaker 5: think ETH is going to be less successful than that, Yes.

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Speaker 5: I would also say that every equity ATF that's going

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Speaker 5: to launch for the next eighteen to twenty four months

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Speaker 5: will also be less successful than that. Tell you a lot.

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Speaker 5: I think Ether is a bit more complicated. I think

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Speaker 5: one of the other things that's different about Ethereum is

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Speaker 5: that there's been a lot less investor education people. I'm

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Speaker 5: talking about bitcoin for a long time, and they've been

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Speaker 5: doing education with investors for a long time. Ether is

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Speaker 5: both more complicated to explain, more complicated to understand, and

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Speaker 5: also just less effort has gone into doing that over

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Speaker 5: the last five to ten years, and so I think

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Speaker 5: there's a bigger educational gap, so it's going to take longer.

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Speaker 5: I think it will be a very successful launch. We

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Speaker 5: have a very successful European ETHERETF. We also have an

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Speaker 5: Australian E three ETF. We do see investor demand for

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Speaker 5: them and quite a bit of a fixcitement and engagement

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Speaker 5: around that. But it is more complicated because actually what

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Speaker 5: you're talking about then is really a primary input in

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Speaker 5: building a new version of the Internet. And then you

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Speaker 5: get into like, well, why do we need a new

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Speaker 5: version of the Internet, and what does that look like

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Speaker 5: and what is the real vision here? And I think

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Speaker 5: that's a much more complicated discussion. Then we should have

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Speaker 5: a global currency and a digital version of cold It's

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Speaker 5: a naturally just more complex discussion. I think it will

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Speaker 5: all to me be very very good for the crypto industry,

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Speaker 5: and I also think it will be very very good

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Speaker 5: for the long term development of this technology to go

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Speaker 5: through that process and do that education. But we spent

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Speaker 5: years doing education in Europe before that was something that

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Speaker 5: really started to resonate, and I think it will take

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Speaker 5: a bit longer. I still suspect it will do quite well,

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Speaker 5: but I think it will look very, very different than

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Speaker 5: the bitcoin launchers.

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Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by HKX Asia's etf Marketplace,

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00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,080
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Speaker 2: I guess I said, reminder Troyal listeners, you're listening to

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Speaker 2: Tiger Money, of course, don't forget to subscribe, like and share.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of the timing, then is it the right time

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Speaker 2: to then launch the product or is it a case

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Speaker 2: of chicken in the egg where it simply will build

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Speaker 2: the momentum ones that product becomes available and then people

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Speaker 2: are forced to learn about it just for the lack

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Speaker 2: of I gets more a better term.

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Speaker 5: I think it is the right time for the product

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Speaker 5: because essentially, you have bitcoin, you have real interest in

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Speaker 5: crypto assets, you have real development on ethereum networks. There's

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Speaker 5: really interesting things happening there. So it's also the right

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Speaker 5: time from an ecosystem perspective of saying, okay, now we're

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Speaker 5: in a position and to start having that conversation. I

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Speaker 5: think it's also been a very overall the crypto market

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Speaker 5: has matured in a really interesting way. It's matured infrastructurally,

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Speaker 5: it's matured in terms of who the players are. There's

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Speaker 5: been the leaders of the industry are, you know, speaking

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Speaker 5: in of a very different way. The types of customers

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Speaker 5: that we interact with are very different. And I think

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Speaker 5: that is a product of institutionalization, okay, and sort of

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Speaker 5: a general leveling up of the space. And I think

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Speaker 5: that's ultimately a very good thing both for the space

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Speaker 5: and for investors. And I think it makes it the

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Speaker 5: right moment in time for that, especially for the US market.

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Speaker 5: I think, you know, the European market is quite a

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Speaker 5: bit further ahead, as is the Australian market in terms

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Speaker 5: of that educational process, but I think it is the

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Speaker 5: right time for the US oh feeling.

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Speaker 3: What else is in is cooking in the kitchen.

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Speaker 5: So I think from a product innovation perspective, we're going

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Speaker 5: to see more products. I think we're going to see

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Speaker 5: more underlyings, We're going to see leverage and in verse,

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Speaker 5: we're going to see more sophisticated strategies that We're going

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Speaker 5: to see more purpose built product for different clients in

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Speaker 5: different markets. And I think one of the things that

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Speaker 5: is a real trend here is you're seeing some very

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Speaker 5: nice global momentum. Right, we're talking about the US spot either,

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Speaker 5: we're talking about the UK with the first listings of

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Speaker 5: bitcoin and ether. We're talking about Australia right and ASX

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Speaker 5: is coming online and you know, we've been managing products

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Speaker 5: there for years, but this is really exciting. You're seeing

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Speaker 5: Hong Kong and that was you know, just at the

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Speaker 5: end of April, you're seeing considerations of adding crypto assets

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Speaker 5: to use its products in Europe. Right, That global wave

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Speaker 5: of change to me means normalization in a really interesting way.

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Speaker 5: You're going to bring crypto assets to normalize and look

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Speaker 5: a lot like other financial markets, whether they're for commodities

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Speaker 5: or for currencies or for finished products. You're going to

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Speaker 5: see more participants, more solutions available to people to access

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Speaker 5: these products. Access will start to look a lot more

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Speaker 5: like buying a stock, a bond or anything else. I

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Speaker 5: think that's really exciting.

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Speaker 2: And somehow we keep going back and you know, I

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Speaker 2: hear you when you keep mentioning here in Europe it's

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Speaker 2: just a different ballgame. We keep going back to the

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Speaker 2: fact that I guess regulation determines the size of the playground,

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Speaker 2: and certainly best practices well established it. And do you

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Speaker 2: get a sense globally because you mentioned we're now in

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Speaker 2: a phase where you are getting more places adopting best practices.

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Speaker 3: Let's put it that way. Have we reached well first

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Speaker 3: part of the question. Have we reached as cape trajectory?

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Speaker 3: You think?

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Speaker 2: Is it easier when you deal with different regulators, how

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Speaker 2: open they seem, the education level of the understanding and

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Speaker 2: comprehension from regulators, for example about what is about to come.

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Speaker 2: Do you get as much friction or do you get

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Speaker 2: less friction this time around?

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Speaker 5: I think the friction is going down. I think the

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Speaker 5: understanding is going up, and I think the realization that

436
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 5: these assets are here to stay, people are using them,

437
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 5: people care about them, that's not going to change. So

438
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 5: I have a very weird little claim to fame, which

439
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 5: is that my mom is the one who actually introduced

440
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 5: me to crypto in twenty thirteen. Usually that interaction goes

441
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 5: the other way. And the reason my mom introduced me

442
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 5: to crypto is because we're watching a documentary about something,

443
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,719
Speaker 5: and she told me, you know, MERK spends too much

444
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 5: money hedging. Globalization is here to stay, but geopolitical stability

445
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 5: at this level and everybody getting along on every topic

446
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,360
Speaker 5: is a historical anomaly. That is not a stable status quo.

447
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 5: That's not the way the world works. So how do

448
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,680
Speaker 5: we keep the benefits of globalization and global trade without

449
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 5: a structural monetary system that everybody can participate in, and

450
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 5: we need one that makes sense. We should have that.

451
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 5: Have you heard of a thing called bitcoin? And I'm like, no,

452
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 5: I have no idea what you're talking about. And we've

453
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 5: gone a very long way from that from it being

454
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 5: this concept of people who have that kind of vision

455
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 5: and understanding to really this being part of everyday dialogue.

456
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 5: And what's interesting with the arrival of all of these

457
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 5: ETFs is my mom totally got the story that makes

458
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 5: perfect sense. That is the story when you listen to

459
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 5: people talk about bitcoin, that is what they talk about today,

460
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 5: and just we're talking about something that had conversation that

461
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 5: happened a decade ago. And the reason my mom she

462
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 5: didn't make an investment at the time because she didn't

463
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 5: feel like the infrastructure was made for her you can't

464
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 5: talk to your wealth manager. You can't you know your

465
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 5: tax filings are going to be different and special, and

466
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 5: you need to open a special kind of account with

467
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 5: a company that you don't have an existing relationship with

468
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 5: and you probably never heard of. Like, that's a very

469
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 5: very fairy high bar for people. The bar of user

470
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 5: existing infrastructure come into the space in a way that

471
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,640
Speaker 5: feels friendly and feels normal to you is a very

472
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 5: different proposition. And I think that that shift is actually

473
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 5: changing the way not just regulators, but really everybody interacts

474
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 5: with this space. It makes it just a lot more

475
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 5: friendly and a lot easier and a lot more welcoming.

476
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 5: And that's changing the way these dialogues are happening across

477
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 5: the board.

478
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 3: I just have a follow up there.

479
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: So, how long after or how soon after did your

480
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 2: mom eventually pull the trigger and buy her first bitcoin?

481
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,959
Speaker 5: My mom bought her first bitcoin when there were products

482
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 5: that would allow her to do so. Okay, and it

483
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 5: took a few year. Yeah, she missed out on quite

484
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 5: a hefty return as a result of that because she

485
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 5: just the infrastructure wasn't meant for her.

486
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 3: There we go, Well, she.

487
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 5: Is now in she's now a crypto investor.

488
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 3: She's okay now, Yeah.

489
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 5: She's okay now, and actually it's doing okay. She's the

490
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 5: one who inspired me to build the whole company. Me

491
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 5: and my co founder built this company for our moms

492
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 5: who wanted to build products that they would feel comfortable

493
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 5: with and feel good about. So that's actually why twenty

494
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 5: one Chuars exists in the first place.

495
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 3: Now, that's a way to make your mom proud in

496
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 3: more ways than.

497
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 4: Why her mom is actually in a lot of the

498
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 4: advertisement of twenty one shares that there's videos on what

499
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 4: is bitcoin and her mom is featured in it.

500
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 5: Yes, So if you have any interest in I hearing

501
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 5: my mom talk about her experiences coming into crypto and

502
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 5: why she did the things she did, she can tell

503
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 5: you in her own words. She was kind enough to

504
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 5: come and actually talk to us about all of these

505
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 5: things and how she conceives it this market.

506
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 4: So, what level do you think bitcoin will end at

507
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 4: this year, five years, ten years? Moving on to the

508
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 4: fun stuff.

509
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,959
Speaker 5: Now, ooh. I try to not make price predictions usually,

510
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 5: but my view is we're so early in the adoption cycle. There'

511
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 5: essentially no intermediaries in the space. There's no solicit demand.

512
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 5: Everything is unsolicited today. You are missing still like accessibility

513
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 5: for a few key geographies. You're missing accessibility on a

514
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 5: few key platforms still today, it's just so early, and

515
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 5: it's also very early in the impact of the having.

516
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 5: The impact of that having is similar to a rate

517
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 5: cut or a rate increase in regular economy. It takes

518
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 5: a while for those things to be reflected. So I

519
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,479
Speaker 5: think we're still quite early in this market cycle and

520
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 5: have a ways to go.

521
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 3: We noticed that the stuff you studied in school.

522
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: I would say, well, on paper, it doesn't seem to

523
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 2: be anything related to what you do, but I mean

524
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: marine biology.

525
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 3: You know, we know more about space that we know

526
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 3: more about what goes on underneath the oceans, And in

527
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 3: any ways, you are pushing the envelope really of the

528
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 3: unknown in what you do best.

529
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 2: Career advice, Is there anything you learned in school that

530
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 2: is applicable right now? Just give us what's in your

531
00:25:58,480 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 2: head right now?

532
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 5: Actually is yes, a lot. I think what I learned

533
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 5: in school that was of value as systems based thinking,

534
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,479
Speaker 5: any kind of interdisciplinary science like what I studied. What

535
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 5: you end up with is you need to be able

536
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 5: to connect disparate systems and think about things that way,

537
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 5: and that to me was the most useful thing I

538
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 5: learned in school was how to think and how to

539
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 5: organize information. And I think that I use that every

540
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 5: single day.

541
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 4: And with that, thank you so much, Ophelia for your

542
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 4: time today. Thank you for sharing your wonderful insights. You

543
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 4: gave us a lot to ponderize. Especially liked how you

544
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,479
Speaker 4: sorted the virtual assets space into three buckets and how

545
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 4: they're all different products.

546
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 5: Well, thank you so much for having me. This is fun.

547
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 3: Thank you all right, So thank you to everyone who

548
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 3: joined us today.

549
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: Are listening, of course to the Tiger Money podcast all

550
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 2: things investing, funds, financial markets in Asia and beyond.

551
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 3: Literally we went under the ocean and up in disguise

552
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 3: just there.

553
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: If you like what you hear, do not forget to subscribe,

554
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 2: please like, please share, not with your friends, with your mom,

555
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 2: or otherwise.

556
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 3: Until next time.

557
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 2: Of course, you can find us inside the Bloomberg terminal

558
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: or on LinkedIn.

559
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 3: We look forward forward to hearing from all of you.

560
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 3: This podcast was produced by Clara Chan