1 00:00:03,170 --> 00:00:06,529 Speaker 1: Hey everybody, Chuck here with episode 7 of the S-Y-S-K, 2 00:00:06,670 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: not S-U-S-K, like we get in emails, Stuff You, Y-O-U, 3 00:00:11,619 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: Should Know playlist. Because we're getting weird, everybody. This episode's 4 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: on dragons. Dragons, colon, as real as mermaids. 5 00:00:19,739 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 2: See what we did there? 6 00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:27,940 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 7 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. There's Chuck 8 00:00:38,340 --> 00:00:43,580 Speaker 2: Dragonslayer Bryant. And, well, that's it. It's just the two 9 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: of us. We can make it if we try, Chuck. 10 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 2: Just the two of us. Dragons and us. 11 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:52,140 Speaker 3: And the great Bill Withers. 12 00:00:53,300 --> 00:00:56,260 Speaker 2: Was that Bill Withers? I can't even say it with 13 00:00:56,300 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 2: a straight say. We just had the same conversation like 14 00:00:59,020 --> 00:01:00,779 Speaker 2: two months ago. I'm not doing it again. 15 00:01:01,300 --> 00:01:02,100 Speaker 3: Oh, about Bill Withers? 16 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,620 Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, I didn't realize that that was a Bill 17 00:01:04,660 --> 00:01:08,500 Speaker 2: Withers song. It was a good song. Lean on Me, though, man, 18 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,190 Speaker 2: is just, whoa. I cannot take it. 19 00:01:11,709 --> 00:01:12,369 Speaker 3: Grandma's Bed. 20 00:01:13,410 --> 00:01:15,890 Speaker 2: What is that? Is that a Bill Withers song? I 21 00:01:16,090 --> 00:01:16,790 Speaker 2: did not know that. 22 00:01:17,790 --> 00:01:20,210 Speaker 3: It's good. He's great. And we probably had this exact 23 00:01:20,230 --> 00:01:20,930 Speaker 3: same conversation. 24 00:01:21,530 --> 00:01:23,050 Speaker 2: I don't know if we had that one or not. 25 00:01:23,110 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 2: But you know who else I like? Who's a little 26 00:01:26,090 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 2: bit like Bill Withers? Not quite as cool, I guess, 27 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,530 Speaker 2: if you're like a cool person. But George Benson was 28 00:01:32,590 --> 00:01:35,470 Speaker 2: amazing and still is. I think he's still around. You 29 00:01:35,490 --> 00:01:36,309 Speaker 2: ever listen to his stuff? 30 00:01:37,050 --> 00:01:41,890 Speaker 3: Yeah, but now I'm realizing that I, maybe I should 31 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,450 Speaker 3: just not correct myself and let people be, send in 32 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:45,090 Speaker 3: a bunch of emails. 33 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,540 Speaker 2: Oh, I love that. I love that. When we get 34 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:49,820 Speaker 2: a million of the same emails. 35 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: It's grandma's hands. I was getting it, John Denver's grandma's 36 00:01:53,460 --> 00:01:56,470 Speaker 3: feather bed kind of just was in the ether. So Gotcha. 37 00:01:56,490 --> 00:01:59,050 Speaker 3: Because we just talked about John Denver, about karaoke. 38 00:01:59,090 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: Grandma's bed. Grandma's hands. The follow-up to Use Me Up. 39 00:02:04,460 --> 00:02:05,060 Speaker 3: So dragons. 40 00:02:05,380 --> 00:02:08,419 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about dragons. Let's have a pleasant conversation 41 00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:09,980 Speaker 2: about dragons, shall we, Chuck? 42 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:17,609 Speaker 3: Yeah. Dragons aren't real. And you'll notice by the title 43 00:02:17,630 --> 00:02:21,790 Speaker 3: of this episode, which is dragons colon as real as mermaids. 44 00:02:22,570 --> 00:02:22,890 Speaker 2: Mm, yeah. 45 00:02:23,730 --> 00:02:25,390 Speaker 3: And it's funny because I think the week before this 46 00:02:25,430 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 3: comes out, Mermaids is our pick for the— Selects? The 47 00:02:30,470 --> 00:02:32,460 Speaker 3: select episode, so it aligns perfectly. 48 00:02:32,740 --> 00:02:33,620 Speaker 2: That is perfect. 49 00:02:34,060 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 3: The dragons aren't real. 50 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:40,020 Speaker 2: Well, okay. Please stop saying that because you're crushing my dreams. Sorry. 51 00:02:41,250 --> 00:02:43,550 Speaker 2: So when we talk about dragons, we have to say 52 00:02:43,590 --> 00:02:45,490 Speaker 2: right here at the outset that there's a lot of 53 00:02:45,530 --> 00:02:46,769 Speaker 2: different kinds of dragons. 54 00:02:46,790 --> 00:02:47,650 Speaker 3: Right. 55 00:02:48,050 --> 00:02:52,370 Speaker 2: And typically when you think of like the flying winged, 56 00:02:53,130 --> 00:02:55,380 Speaker 2: usually long, maybe scaly. 57 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:56,500 Speaker 3: Fire breathing. 58 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:01,740 Speaker 2: Fire breathing dragon, often with a long kind of serpentine tail. 59 00:03:01,820 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's even pointy like the devil. 60 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:06,820 Speaker 3: Sure. 61 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:12,070 Speaker 2: Which we'll see why. That's considered a Western dragon. And 62 00:03:12,130 --> 00:03:16,410 Speaker 2: that is its own thing that kind of evolved from 63 00:03:16,710 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 2: a number of different traditions. But there's also the Asian dragon, which, 64 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,700 Speaker 2: you know, has variations among different Asian countries, but it 65 00:03:25,900 --> 00:03:29,460 Speaker 2: generally seems to be kind of the same ancient Chinese thing. 66 00:03:30,620 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: that's a totally different thing, and it evolves on its 67 00:03:33,380 --> 00:03:37,780 Speaker 2: own in isolation as well. And so because you've got 68 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: these different traditions of dragons that seem fairly similar in 69 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,460 Speaker 2: a lot of ways, there's a lot of people out 70 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: there who say, wow, this is astounding. Every culture in 71 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: the world has some sort of tradition of dragons. And 72 00:03:51,460 --> 00:03:56,870 Speaker 2: that's kind of true, but throughout this episode we'll see 73 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:02,550 Speaker 2: that's not really accurate. Nowadays it seems that way because 74 00:04:02,590 --> 00:04:06,450 Speaker 2: we have overlaid the idea of dragons over everything, but 75 00:04:06,490 --> 00:04:08,530 Speaker 2: if you really kind of dig into the past and 76 00:04:08,970 --> 00:04:10,730 Speaker 2: look into the nuance of some of these things that 77 00:04:10,750 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: we term dragons, they're very different. So it's a lot 78 00:04:13,220 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: more accurate to say that every culture in the world 79 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,620 Speaker 2: has mythical beasts, some of which share a lot in 80 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,390 Speaker 2: common with with our modern conception of dragons. And that's 81 00:04:23,529 --> 00:04:26,610 Speaker 2: probably where our modern conception of dragons came from was 82 00:04:26,630 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 2: all these different ideas of it in the ancient past. 83 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a book called An Instinct for Dragons written 84 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:40,300 Speaker 3: by an anthropologist named David E. Jones about dragons and 85 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,750 Speaker 3: dragons throughout cultures and across cultures. And there's a theory 86 00:04:44,790 --> 00:04:50,110 Speaker 3: he's got going, which is humans evolved and primates evolved 87 00:04:50,700 --> 00:04:56,180 Speaker 3: with a fear of three predators, basically, snakes, cats, which 88 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:01,930 Speaker 3: are big cats, house cats, and eagles. And that a dragon, 89 00:05:02,060 --> 00:05:04,110 Speaker 3: it sort of makes sense that every culture sort of 90 00:05:04,170 --> 00:05:08,330 Speaker 3: has something like a dragon, because in folklore and myth 91 00:05:08,350 --> 00:05:12,530 Speaker 3: and storytelling, you might combine the three scariest things into 92 00:05:12,630 --> 00:05:14,570 Speaker 3: one super scary thing, and that is a dragon. 93 00:05:14,589 --> 00:05:17,390 Speaker 2: Right. And you might say, like, well, wait a minute, like, 94 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:19,690 Speaker 2: I think eagles are kind of cool. I'm not at 95 00:05:19,730 --> 00:05:22,130 Speaker 2: all scared. Sure. Number one, have you ever been around 96 00:05:22,190 --> 00:05:25,229 Speaker 2: an eagle when it was loose? I'll bet you'd be 97 00:05:25,270 --> 00:05:27,390 Speaker 2: kind of scared of it because those talons are serious. 98 00:05:27,810 --> 00:05:28,950 Speaker 3: Or one that dive-bombed you? 99 00:05:29,610 --> 00:05:32,430 Speaker 2: Exactly. More to the point, though, or more to, I 100 00:05:32,450 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 2: should say, David Jones's point— this would be this fear, 101 00:05:38,260 --> 00:05:40,740 Speaker 2: this innate fear that humans have would be based much 102 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,500 Speaker 2: more deeply in our evolutionary past when we were monkeys 103 00:05:45,180 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 2: and you actually could be killed by certain kinds of eagles, 104 00:05:47,940 --> 00:05:50,180 Speaker 2: like the harpy eagle. Remember we talked about the harpy 105 00:05:50,260 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: eagle in the sloth episode because they can mess a 106 00:05:52,990 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: sloth up. They can mess a monkey up too. So 107 00:05:55,670 --> 00:05:58,469 Speaker 2: this guy's premise is like we have these ancient fears 108 00:05:58,529 --> 00:06:01,410 Speaker 2: of these things and as we evolved and became humans 109 00:06:01,430 --> 00:06:04,740 Speaker 2: and started telling each other stories, these things combined, like 110 00:06:04,779 --> 00:06:08,099 Speaker 2: you were saying, into this one fierce mythological monster, which 111 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,940 Speaker 2: was basically the sum of all of our most primal fears. 112 00:06:12,810 --> 00:06:15,870 Speaker 3: Yeah. And then, of course, if you look at ancient cultures, 113 00:06:16,830 --> 00:06:21,750 Speaker 3: they always had sort of mythical stories and folklore to explain, 114 00:06:22,310 --> 00:06:26,140 Speaker 3: you know, everything from weather phenomenon to things like volcanoes. 115 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 3: And if they happened upon maybe dinosaur bones or whale 116 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 3: bones or then a story might go along with that 117 00:06:33,220 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 3: to explain it away. Like, you know, this was clearly 118 00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:39,540 Speaker 3: some huge lizard-like creature or maybe a snake-like creature, and 119 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,870 Speaker 3: there was probably a story around it and why they 120 00:06:41,910 --> 00:06:45,810 Speaker 3: should fear it or usually some sort of a sacrifice 121 00:06:46,430 --> 00:06:49,150 Speaker 3: that they needed to make, you know, sort of in 122 00:06:49,190 --> 00:06:52,170 Speaker 3: lockstep with those stories. But that's just sort of another 123 00:06:52,230 --> 00:06:55,700 Speaker 3: theory on maybe how the dragon might have come about 124 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 3: as far as folklore goes. 125 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 2: One of the most interesting theories that I saw, and 126 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 2: we should say no one has a widely accepted answer 127 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,230 Speaker 2: for this, which I love as always. Sure. But that 128 00:07:08,290 --> 00:07:15,010 Speaker 2: it was the bee, that the description often in ancient cultures, 129 00:07:15,050 --> 00:07:18,190 Speaker 2: they used to use like riddles and exaggeration and metaphor 130 00:07:18,790 --> 00:07:28,420 Speaker 2: to discuss and talk about and describe actual things. A 131 00:07:28,460 --> 00:07:31,060 Speaker 2: description of a bee, or I should say a swarm 132 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: of a bee, is what actually became the dragon in mythology. 133 00:07:36,580 --> 00:07:38,820 Speaker 2: And at first, you're just like, that doesn't make any 134 00:07:38,860 --> 00:07:40,610 Speaker 2: sense at all. But some of the points that these 135 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,810 Speaker 2: people made, there was a journal article in it. I 136 00:07:44,030 --> 00:07:46,950 Speaker 2: think like a journal on Tolkien studies or something like that. 137 00:07:47,450 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: But they say that a bee swarm moving together... It 138 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,430 Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily resemble a dragon, but it makes a lot 139 00:07:55,470 --> 00:07:58,390 Speaker 2: more sense along those lines than it does when you're 140 00:07:58,410 --> 00:07:59,770 Speaker 2: talking about an individual bee. 141 00:08:00,090 --> 00:08:00,940 Speaker 3: It does in a cartoon. 142 00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: Exactly. It can make an arrow to point in a direction, 143 00:08:06,060 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: you know, where somebody's hiding, that kind of thing. And 144 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: then another one is that the fire, the idea of 145 00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:16,300 Speaker 2: a dragon breathing fire is a metaphor for the feeling 146 00:08:16,340 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: of like your skin burning from a bee sting or 147 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,780 Speaker 2: the intense pain. And then lastly, in the Western tradition, 148 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: a lot of dragons protect like mounds of gold or treasure. 149 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,610 Speaker 2: And that this is a metaphor for honey and gold, 150 00:08:32,050 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: like the honeycombs that ancient people would have used. basically 151 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 2: considered gold, not just, you know, food, but also it 152 00:08:39,860 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: was used as medicine as well. So if you kind 153 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,660 Speaker 2: of put all that together, it seems like a pretty 154 00:08:45,140 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: interesting theory, at least. It makes a lot more sense 155 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,620 Speaker 2: than a bee, you know, when you really kind of 156 00:08:50,660 --> 00:08:51,330 Speaker 2: dig into it. 157 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:57,339 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. The word itself is, well, you can look 158 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 3: back to the Iliad when Homer wrote about the D-R-A-K-O-N, 159 00:09:02,950 --> 00:09:07,110 Speaker 3: the dracon, which supposedly is the first known use of 160 00:09:07,150 --> 00:09:12,270 Speaker 3: the word. And ancient Greek sort of has some confusing 161 00:09:12,380 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 3: etymology behind it. But basically, Homer uses that word to 162 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 3: describe snakes. 163 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: Like unequivocally. 164 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,100 Speaker 3: Yeah. And not, you know, huge flying fire-breathing snakes, but 165 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:24,300 Speaker 3: just snakes. Yeah. 166 00:09:24,550 --> 00:09:27,429 Speaker 2: Yeah. He even says, no, I'm just talking about snakes, everybody. 167 00:09:27,770 --> 00:09:30,610 Speaker 3: Not dragons. Don't get ahead of yourself. These are snakes. 168 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:32,900 Speaker 2: And, I mean, they say that, like, he points out 169 00:09:32,940 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: that he's talking about snakes because he even says a chimera, 170 00:09:36,179 --> 00:09:39,660 Speaker 2: which is, I think, the head of a lion, the 171 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,579 Speaker 2: goat body, a serpent tail, and bat's wings. He even 172 00:09:42,620 --> 00:09:46,589 Speaker 2: says the serpent tail, the back portion of the chimera, 173 00:09:46,950 --> 00:09:49,570 Speaker 2: is a dragon. So he's talking about just regular old 174 00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:50,690 Speaker 2: snakes for sure. 175 00:09:51,270 --> 00:09:53,770 Speaker 3: Yeah, and other writers and other classical stories did the 176 00:09:53,809 --> 00:09:58,570 Speaker 3: same thing, whether it was Dracontus or Draconis, using all 177 00:09:58,610 --> 00:10:02,150 Speaker 3: these words sort of interchanging. with other words for snake. 178 00:10:03,309 --> 00:10:07,739 Speaker 3: But then we go to the history of, not the history, 179 00:10:07,790 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 3: but just the history of animals. And that's the first 180 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 3: sort of scientific take on the Dracone, which is an 181 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: enemy of the eagle because an eagle as a bird 182 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,450 Speaker 3: of prey would eat snakes, obviously. And different people got 183 00:10:21,490 --> 00:10:23,990 Speaker 3: a little more specific in later writings as to what 184 00:10:24,410 --> 00:10:27,050 Speaker 3: kind of snake. But it's still just snakes. Yeah. 185 00:10:27,350 --> 00:10:31,410 Speaker 2: So over time, like that's where the word dragon came from. 186 00:10:31,650 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 2: It was a word for snake. That's it. And then 187 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 2: over time, as people started to exaggerate here or there, 188 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,540 Speaker 2: conflate different types of snakes and different behaviors that aren't 189 00:10:43,580 --> 00:10:45,970 Speaker 2: found in snakes but saying that they were. And they 190 00:10:46,030 --> 00:10:48,210 Speaker 2: all kind of put that under the umbrella word for 191 00:10:48,250 --> 00:10:52,510 Speaker 2: snake's dragon. It seems like the legend or the myth, 192 00:10:53,170 --> 00:10:56,340 Speaker 2: the mythical version of dragons started to kind of plump 193 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,300 Speaker 2: up and grow. Yeah. 194 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,500 Speaker 3: And this is a point Ed, the Grabster, put this 195 00:11:02,540 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 3: together for us. But Ed points out something I kind 196 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 3: of never really considered. Back in the day, in the 197 00:11:07,660 --> 00:11:11,579 Speaker 3: classical period, writers were writers. They weren't like, hey, I'm 198 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,620 Speaker 3: going to write only about natural history and I'm only 199 00:11:15,660 --> 00:11:19,300 Speaker 3: going to write fiction and myth and storytelling like writers 200 00:11:19,370 --> 00:11:22,830 Speaker 3: just wrote. So there were people that wrote natural history 201 00:11:22,910 --> 00:11:27,329 Speaker 3: tomes and also myth and storytelling legends. And so a 202 00:11:27,370 --> 00:11:29,390 Speaker 3: lot of this stuff could get kind of mixed up 203 00:11:29,550 --> 00:11:34,790 Speaker 3: and confused, exaggerated. Mistranslation is a huge, huge deal. Yeah. 204 00:11:35,270 --> 00:11:35,530 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. 205 00:11:35,550 --> 00:11:37,890 Speaker 3: And a lot of this is sort of where the 206 00:11:38,050 --> 00:11:39,689 Speaker 3: sort of myth of the dragon came from. 207 00:11:40,420 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 2: I just think of, like, some writer getting confused what 208 00:11:42,940 --> 00:11:44,939 Speaker 2: they were working on that day, and now we have 209 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: the myth of dragons. 210 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 3: Right. 211 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:47,620 Speaker 2: You know? 212 00:11:47,740 --> 00:11:49,420 Speaker 3: It's like, was this real or not? I can't remember. 213 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:49,900 Speaker 3: Who cares? 214 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,740 Speaker 2: So, yeah, like, you really hit upon something really important. Mistranslations, 215 00:11:54,780 --> 00:11:57,750 Speaker 2: or a different way to put it is lazy translation, 216 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:03,050 Speaker 2: have really kind of changed our idea of what people 217 00:12:03,090 --> 00:12:05,930 Speaker 2: were talking about in the ancient world. And I can't 218 00:12:05,990 --> 00:12:09,770 Speaker 2: imagine how much nuance and understanding has been lost. Oh, sure. 219 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:14,100 Speaker 2: probably dumb in a lot of ways ancient people seem 220 00:12:14,179 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 2: compared to how they actually were because of this tradition 221 00:12:17,740 --> 00:12:23,130 Speaker 2: of like um people translation that was passed down over 222 00:12:23,190 --> 00:12:28,270 Speaker 2: the year people yeah that's very cute and the the 223 00:12:28,530 --> 00:12:32,170 Speaker 2: reason why it's kind of lazy translation is it seems 224 00:12:32,250 --> 00:12:36,099 Speaker 2: like anybody who came across an ancient text or a 225 00:12:36,140 --> 00:12:40,140 Speaker 2: text in another language um who's translating something into english 226 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:45,570 Speaker 2: is And they seem to be describing anything even remotely dragon-like. 227 00:12:45,690 --> 00:12:48,570 Speaker 2: Any mythical beast, anything that might have wings, anything with 228 00:12:48,610 --> 00:12:52,060 Speaker 2: a serpent tail, anything that breathes fire. Boop, dragon. It's 229 00:12:52,100 --> 00:12:54,900 Speaker 2: a dragon. And then now, those of us who have 230 00:12:54,980 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: a certain... compartmentalized idea of what a dragon is, everything 231 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,819 Speaker 2: was a dragon. And now we've reached that point where 232 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: it's like, this is how we got this idea that 233 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 2: every culture has dragons. No, we just kind of lazily 234 00:13:09,660 --> 00:13:12,700 Speaker 2: translated what other cultures were talking about into dragons along 235 00:13:12,740 --> 00:13:14,140 Speaker 2: the way. Right. 236 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 3: I think that is a great first act. 237 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. I'm bowing. 238 00:13:18,140 --> 00:13:20,750 Speaker 3: I'm throwing roses at your feet. 239 00:13:21,290 --> 00:13:21,750 Speaker 2: Thank you. 240 00:13:22,270 --> 00:13:24,590 Speaker 3: And we're going to take a little break, Aruni, and 241 00:13:24,650 --> 00:13:25,370 Speaker 3: be right back. 242 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,540 Speaker 2: So the rose petals i sent you arrived in time 243 00:14:01,860 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: just in time thank you for throwing them and not 244 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,250 Speaker 2: saving them for something. 245 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,270 Speaker 3: Else I also realized I just went all Ned Flanders 246 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,420 Speaker 3: with the break-a-rooney. I've never said that before in my life. 247 00:14:09,740 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 2: I liked it, though. It was refreshing. We need that 248 00:14:12,580 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: kind of wet-behind-the-ears, you know, wholesomeness right now, Chuck. 249 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,540 Speaker 3: Yeah, in year 14? 250 00:14:20,540 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: No, not just us. I mean the world. 251 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 3: Okay. You know? Yeah, up with Flanders. 252 00:14:26,580 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, up with Flanders. That's right. 253 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,070 Speaker 3: So my favorite thing always about Flanders is when he 254 00:14:32,110 --> 00:14:35,630 Speaker 3: would be really buff. Like every time he took off 255 00:14:35,650 --> 00:14:36,510 Speaker 3: his shirt magically. 256 00:14:36,530 --> 00:14:37,740 Speaker 2: Stupid sexy Flanders. 257 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:38,770 Speaker 1: I know. 258 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: It's hilarious. This is so funny. He ascribed it to 259 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:48,300 Speaker 2: a healthy dose of vitamin church. Right. Oh, man. 260 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:48,750 Speaker 3: I love it. 261 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,380 Speaker 2: Yeah. All right. 262 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 3: Where were we here? Giant snakes. 263 00:14:52,980 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. We talked about them. We were talking about mistranslations 264 00:14:55,540 --> 00:14:57,380 Speaker 2: were a big problem. And I think a good place 265 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,380 Speaker 2: to start with that is back in Sumeria. Yeah. 266 00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, the Sumerian legends wrote about something called the Usum, U-S-U-M, 267 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,020 Speaker 3: also called dragons or, you know, at least referred to 268 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,380 Speaker 3: as dragons now. And these were kind of like you 269 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,430 Speaker 3: said at the beginning. These were just sometimes just large monsters, 270 00:15:15,490 --> 00:15:19,090 Speaker 3: large scary things, and not necessarily a dragon, but was 271 00:15:19,150 --> 00:15:20,750 Speaker 3: sort of just translated as dragon. 272 00:15:21,330 --> 00:15:25,950 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I should say Sumer, not Sumeria. But these 273 00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:29,610 Speaker 2: were like their gods that they were talking about. These were, 274 00:15:29,630 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: you know, like the goddess of water who gave birth 275 00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 2: to the world. Like they had this incredibly detailed cosmology 276 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: that explained, you know, where they came from, where the 277 00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: world came from, where the sun came from. And we, 278 00:15:46,740 --> 00:15:49,570 Speaker 2: along the way, translated that to dragons. Right. 279 00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:49,730 Speaker 1: Right. 280 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,740 Speaker 2: So luckily there are scholars who have learned to speak Akkadian, 281 00:15:55,160 --> 00:16:01,700 Speaker 2: I guess the world's oldest spoken language, A-K-K-A-D-I-A-N, not the 282 00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:06,590 Speaker 2: Canadian group that the Cajuns come from. This is different. 283 00:16:08,910 --> 00:16:12,550 Speaker 2: So we understand now that there's much more nuance, much 284 00:16:12,590 --> 00:16:15,470 Speaker 2: more detail to it. But I think the upshot of 285 00:16:15,550 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 2: this is that there were conceptions of like, fire breathing 286 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:26,330 Speaker 2: and like flying serpents and like potentially malicious, malevolent, evil, 287 00:16:26,730 --> 00:16:29,930 Speaker 2: mythical beasts that would resemble kind of what we would 288 00:16:30,370 --> 00:16:34,790 Speaker 2: understand as a dragon dating back thousands of years. Yeah. 289 00:16:34,910 --> 00:16:37,230 Speaker 3: And, you know, this course goes straight to the Bible 290 00:16:37,310 --> 00:16:41,330 Speaker 3: as well in Revelations. There's a lot of talk about 291 00:16:41,410 --> 00:16:46,910 Speaker 3: the archangels, archangels battling a great dragon. In this case, 292 00:16:46,950 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 3: the dragon is Satan. But again, this is sort of 293 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 3: a translation, like Satan was always sort of the serpent, 294 00:16:53,540 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 3: at least in Genesis, it first appeared as a serpent. 295 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 3: And so, in the end, Satan is also a serpent, 296 00:17:00,380 --> 00:17:05,070 Speaker 3: but spelled, you know, with the D-R-A-K-O-N, like the ancient Greek. 297 00:17:05,609 --> 00:17:06,090 Speaker 2: Oh, is that right? 298 00:17:06,810 --> 00:17:08,970 Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's, you know, I mean, not in the 299 00:17:08,990 --> 00:17:10,830 Speaker 3: King James Version and stuff like that, obviously. 300 00:17:10,850 --> 00:17:11,209 Speaker 2: Sure. 301 00:17:11,710 --> 00:17:15,449 Speaker 3: But again, you know, pre-translation. And, you know, there were 302 00:17:16,850 --> 00:17:19,290 Speaker 3: sort of renderings of this, of the big war for heaven, 303 00:17:19,369 --> 00:17:21,470 Speaker 3: and this is when we see, you know, kind of 304 00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:24,030 Speaker 3: what we would see later on, which is metaphor for 305 00:17:24,090 --> 00:17:26,230 Speaker 3: good versus evil in a big battle. 306 00:17:26,830 --> 00:17:29,330 Speaker 2: So that's what William Blake's Paradise Lost is about, right? 307 00:17:30,790 --> 00:17:31,379 Speaker 3: I've never read it. 308 00:17:31,810 --> 00:17:33,969 Speaker 2: I haven't either. I'm just familiar with it from that 309 00:17:34,010 --> 00:17:34,910 Speaker 2: movie Red Dragon. 310 00:17:34,930 --> 00:17:36,210 Speaker 3: Okay. 311 00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:39,420 Speaker 2: About the Silence of the Lambs prequel, I think. 312 00:17:39,940 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 3: Oh, sure. 313 00:17:40,340 --> 00:17:43,340 Speaker 2: Yeah. He's like, do you see. 314 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 2: You remember when Ralph Fiennes has got poor Philip Seymour 315 00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: Hoffman strapped to that wheelchair? Oh, man. And he's showing 316 00:17:50,820 --> 00:17:51,900 Speaker 2: him crime scene photos. 317 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,780 Speaker 3: I had a spoiler coming. Didn't love that movie. It 318 00:17:55,820 --> 00:18:01,020 Speaker 3: was okay. But that shot of that burning wheelchair and 319 00:18:01,060 --> 00:18:03,100 Speaker 3: body going down the parking deck is one of the 320 00:18:03,140 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 3: most sort of chilling images I've seen in movies. 321 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,420 Speaker 2: I know. The thing that chills me about it, though, 322 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,210 Speaker 2: is it's an antique wicker wheelchair, which is the scariest 323 00:18:10,250 --> 00:18:12,390 Speaker 2: thing I've ever seen in my life. I hate those. 324 00:18:12,790 --> 00:18:13,490 Speaker 3: You don't like those, huh? 325 00:18:13,930 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: No, I think we just talked about it recently. And I, 326 00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 2: for the rest of my life, I will be creeped 327 00:18:18,930 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 2: out by those things. 328 00:18:19,820 --> 00:18:22,980 Speaker 3: I'm going to get you one. Slide whistle with this Christmas. 329 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,940 Speaker 2: Next Christmas, you're just. 330 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,900 Speaker 3: Going to get an ancient wicker wheelchair. 331 00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:30,580 Speaker 2: I don't want to be wasteful, so I won't throw 332 00:18:30,619 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 2: it away and I'll just have to live among it. 333 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,860 Speaker 2: It's going to be terrible. Like I'll never get used 334 00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 2: to it either. 335 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:36,350 Speaker 3: You could make a. 336 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,380 Speaker 3: A life-size chuck dummy put it in there and set 337 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 3: it on fire and roll it down a parking oh. 338 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,260 Speaker 2: I wouldn't do that i'd make a life-size version of 339 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,810 Speaker 2: chuck and just talk to you be like listen i 340 00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:51,870 Speaker 2: got a lot of stuff to say to you that's 341 00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:54,290 Speaker 2: even creepier but you're gonna sit there and listen to 342 00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:57,030 Speaker 2: it i'll be wearing nothing but an apron. 343 00:18:58,070 --> 00:19:00,550 Speaker 3: Just like a real doll with a big fake beard 344 00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:06,610 Speaker 3: oh man OK, so, yeah, good versus evil is sort 345 00:19:06,650 --> 00:19:10,130 Speaker 3: of how a lot of these tales and folklore play 346 00:19:10,270 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 3: out and also incorporating stuff that you would see time 347 00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 3: and time again in literature later on. Like there's a 348 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,420 Speaker 3: dragon that lives out by itself near a village and 349 00:19:21,060 --> 00:19:23,500 Speaker 3: it's a greedy, vengeful dragon. And we need to appease 350 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,350 Speaker 3: this dragon with sacrifice once a year or else it 351 00:19:26,369 --> 00:19:28,369 Speaker 3: will come down and like rain fire upon everyone. 352 00:19:29,220 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so all of this stuff, like this idea, this 353 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:38,139 Speaker 2: Western dragon that you're describing, that's taken from Beowulf, I believe, 354 00:19:38,650 --> 00:19:42,190 Speaker 2: the dragon that killed Beowulf. I always thought it was 355 00:19:42,190 --> 00:19:46,490 Speaker 2: a Norse legend, but apparently it's English, Old English. It's 356 00:19:46,490 --> 00:19:49,460 Speaker 2: just set in in the Netherlands or in Scandinavia in 357 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,510 Speaker 2: the Norse I think I don't remember exactly where it's set. 358 00:19:53,630 --> 00:19:57,340 Speaker 2: It's just set there. It's not written by them. But 359 00:19:57,380 --> 00:20:01,420 Speaker 2: that dragon was malevolent, and I believe it was guarding treasure. 360 00:20:01,460 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 2: I think the reason it went berserk and Beowulf had 361 00:20:03,540 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 2: to kill it was because somebody stole one of its 362 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,390 Speaker 2: golden goblets, a.k.a. honey, because they're really talking about a bee. 363 00:20:10,690 --> 00:20:15,510 Speaker 2: But so you have an idea of a greedy, murderous 364 00:20:15,609 --> 00:20:18,580 Speaker 2: dragon that protects treasure and Like that comes from an 365 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 2: ancient tradition, but that's a pretty standard feature of dragons 366 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:23,659 Speaker 2: like you were saying. 367 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. So all this is going on for many, many, 368 00:20:27,859 --> 00:20:31,220 Speaker 3: many years. Finally, the rubber kind of meets the road 369 00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:35,030 Speaker 3: as far as Western dragons are concerned with the legend 370 00:20:35,070 --> 00:20:38,990 Speaker 3: of St. George, who was a Christian saint, a real 371 00:20:39,030 --> 00:20:42,369 Speaker 3: Christian saint, maybe a real person who may have been 372 00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:47,190 Speaker 3: a Roman soldier. who was tortured and killed for converting 373 00:20:47,230 --> 00:20:53,010 Speaker 3: pagans to Christianity. This is circa 4th century AD. And 374 00:20:53,820 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 3: because of stories getting passed around like a game of telephone, 375 00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 3: the actual first name of that story when it was 376 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,460 Speaker 3: told was St. Theodore, but it was really St. George. 377 00:21:05,130 --> 00:21:08,850 Speaker 2: So I saw that they're both possibly... known as dragon 378 00:21:08,890 --> 00:21:09,790 Speaker 2: slaying saints. 379 00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:10,430 Speaker 3: Okay. 380 00:21:11,050 --> 00:21:13,490 Speaker 2: It's not necessarily like George took that from Theodore. They're 381 00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:16,410 Speaker 2: both known for having slain a dragon. But what's interesting 382 00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:19,630 Speaker 2: is if you see St. Theodore depicted with his dragon, 383 00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:26,820 Speaker 2: it's very clearly a crocodile. And the origin story of 384 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,740 Speaker 2: either one, but particularly St. George, is that there is 385 00:21:29,780 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 2: a town in modern day Turkey or possibly Palestine, I'm 386 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,660 Speaker 2: not 100% sure, but in what would have been called 387 00:21:37,490 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 2: Anatolia back then where they had the spring like this 388 00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:45,260 Speaker 2: town got their water from the spring and it was 389 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: guarded by a giant massive crocodile and that the townspeople 390 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,100 Speaker 2: would sacrifice a sheep to sometimes two a day basically 391 00:21:54,140 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 2: to distract the crocodile so they could go get the 392 00:21:56,180 --> 00:21:58,389 Speaker 2: water and then get out of there. And then they 393 00:21:58,450 --> 00:22:00,989 Speaker 2: ran out of sheep. So they said, well, what comes 394 00:22:01,070 --> 00:22:04,550 Speaker 2: after sheep? How about maidens? So they started throwing maidens, 395 00:22:04,609 --> 00:22:09,540 Speaker 2: sacrificing maidens, literally throwing them to the crocodile to distract 396 00:22:09,580 --> 00:22:11,659 Speaker 2: it so they could get the water. And eventually they 397 00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:14,899 Speaker 2: came upon the king's daughter. They drew straws to see 398 00:22:14,940 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 2: what maiden would go next. And St. George apparently arrived 399 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,500 Speaker 2: just in time to slay the dragon, a.k.a. the crocodile. 400 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 2: But that's this idea that that's where this story of 401 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: somebody slaying a dragon could have been rooted in reality. 402 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,900 Speaker 2: That over the years, this massive crocodile, which was so 403 00:22:32,980 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 2: fearsome and so murderous and killed so many people, was 404 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 2: converted into a dragon over the years. And so St. 405 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,630 Speaker 2: George slew the dragon. And that's where that came from. 406 00:22:43,130 --> 00:22:44,690 Speaker 3: And there was a real crocodile that lived by a 407 00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 3: real spring. Right. That's pretty cool. 408 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,020 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought so too. I love it when something 409 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: that seems totally legendary is rooted in some sort of fact. 410 00:22:52,420 --> 00:22:56,250 Speaker 2: It's just people embellished or exaggerated over time. Totally. 411 00:22:56,270 --> 00:22:59,210 Speaker 3: Uh, if you want to go with the sort of 412 00:22:59,350 --> 00:23:02,830 Speaker 3: real great first image of what we think of as 413 00:23:02,869 --> 00:23:06,570 Speaker 3: a Western dragon, uh, you can go to 1260 AD, uh, 414 00:23:07,030 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 3: in an illustration in a medieval, uh, bestiary called MS 415 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,420 Speaker 3: Harley 3244. Uh, Great title. I think Ed said it 416 00:23:16,460 --> 00:23:18,379 Speaker 3: was probably a catalog designation. 417 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the real title is Peraltus' Theological Miscellany. 418 00:23:23,380 --> 00:23:25,310 Speaker 3: Yeah, which is, that's an actual great title. 419 00:23:25,619 --> 00:23:30,030 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like MS Harley 3244. 420 00:23:30,030 --> 00:23:32,149 Speaker 3: It's cool looking though. You can, if you're near a 421 00:23:32,170 --> 00:23:34,869 Speaker 3: laptop or something, you can look this thing up and 422 00:23:34,970 --> 00:23:36,649 Speaker 3: it is, you know, you look at it and this 423 00:23:36,690 --> 00:23:39,810 Speaker 3: is exactly what you think of as something from like 424 00:23:39,850 --> 00:23:42,150 Speaker 3: Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones or whatever. Yeah, 425 00:23:42,190 --> 00:23:43,090 Speaker 3: it's like, it's a dragon. 426 00:23:43,270 --> 00:23:44,820 Speaker 2: It's how a scene starts, you know? 427 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 428 00:23:46,619 --> 00:23:49,139 Speaker 2: So, oh, sorry, I see what you're saying. Like the 429 00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 2: dragon that shows up in there specifically, the red one? 430 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 3: Well, no, I just mean sort of the dragon that 431 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,830 Speaker 3: we all think of in sort of literature and folklore. 432 00:23:58,030 --> 00:23:58,220 Speaker 2: Right. 433 00:23:58,550 --> 00:23:59,650 Speaker 3: Like this is clearly that. 434 00:24:00,050 --> 00:24:04,409 Speaker 2: Yeah. And supposedly it's the first one from around 1260. 435 00:24:04,410 --> 00:24:08,350 Speaker 2: Did you say that? Yeah. So, and yeah, when you 436 00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:10,830 Speaker 2: see it, you're like, yes, this is probably the basis 437 00:24:10,890 --> 00:24:14,230 Speaker 2: of the Western dragon as we understand it. And it 438 00:24:14,270 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 2: would have spread to Europe which it did I think 439 00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:20,459 Speaker 2: that was English it was by a guy named William 440 00:24:20,530 --> 00:24:22,930 Speaker 2: Peralt and I believe he was English so it would 441 00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:26,169 Speaker 2: have spread from England to the rest of Europe and 442 00:24:26,210 --> 00:24:30,410 Speaker 2: that that kind of set the stage for at least 443 00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:33,810 Speaker 2: the visual version of the Western Dragon from that point 444 00:24:33,950 --> 00:24:37,710 Speaker 2: on thanks to England Dan right I think we said 445 00:24:37,730 --> 00:24:40,550 Speaker 2: English Dan it's England Dan oh is it English Dan 446 00:24:40,570 --> 00:24:43,970 Speaker 2: makes way more sense yeah England Dan's a little weird 447 00:24:44,530 --> 00:24:47,410 Speaker 2: yeah But hey, England Dan was a little weird. 448 00:24:47,850 --> 00:24:49,750 Speaker 3: But your nickname is America Josh. 449 00:24:50,250 --> 00:24:52,090 Speaker 2: Sure. How about All-America Josh? 450 00:24:55,030 --> 00:24:57,669 Speaker 3: Should we take a break now and talk about Asian dragons? 451 00:24:58,060 --> 00:24:59,340 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's. All right. 452 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,740 Speaker 3: We'll be right back with a kinder, gentler dragon right 453 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:02,100 Speaker 3: after this. 454 00:25:35,020 --> 00:25:38,419 Speaker 2: Okay, so Chuck, you mentioned something. You said kinder, gentler dragon. 455 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:44,530 Speaker 2: It's true. Western dragons are generally, in the tradition, murderous, greedy, 456 00:25:45,170 --> 00:25:47,170 Speaker 2: wealth hoarding, Jerks. 457 00:25:47,609 --> 00:25:47,969 Speaker 3: Boo. 458 00:25:48,430 --> 00:25:50,690 Speaker 2: Who may be pure evil personified. 459 00:25:50,710 --> 00:25:51,330 Speaker 3: Yeah. 460 00:25:51,390 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: An Asian dragon, which everybody has seen, at the very 461 00:25:54,140 --> 00:25:56,859 Speaker 2: least in like a photo of a street parade. Yeah. 462 00:25:57,020 --> 00:26:01,379 Speaker 2: Or in some sort of like a Chinese silkscreen or 463 00:26:01,420 --> 00:26:05,660 Speaker 2: something like that. An Asian dragon is typically much more 464 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:11,350 Speaker 2: benevolent than that and usually is associated with rain and water, 465 00:26:11,609 --> 00:26:13,590 Speaker 2: that kind of thing. And so when you see those, 466 00:26:13,810 --> 00:26:16,780 Speaker 2: like a dragon being paraded around where it's a bunch 467 00:26:16,820 --> 00:26:20,139 Speaker 2: of people like under like a dragon costume, that's actually 468 00:26:20,380 --> 00:26:25,940 Speaker 2: based on a very ancient rain dance, essentially a ceremony 469 00:26:26,020 --> 00:26:29,870 Speaker 2: to invoke rain because these dragons were associated with that. 470 00:26:30,570 --> 00:26:30,810 Speaker 1: Yeah. 471 00:26:30,850 --> 00:26:35,210 Speaker 3: And this is far, far, far older than in the West. 472 00:26:35,670 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 3: I think in about 6,000 BC, there were people in 473 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:45,460 Speaker 3: China that were carving little dragon jade figurines. And there 474 00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 3: was art back then, I think as far back as 475 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,060 Speaker 3: 400 BC, where it's clearly some kind of dragon. But again, 476 00:26:52,220 --> 00:26:58,629 Speaker 3: supposedly independent from the sort of evolution of the Western dragon. 477 00:26:59,230 --> 00:27:02,890 Speaker 2: Yeah. And so all of this was based on some 478 00:27:02,910 --> 00:27:07,940 Speaker 2: of the early Chinese religion It was based on animism 479 00:27:07,980 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 2: and not just Chinese, but a lot of ancient religions 480 00:27:10,820 --> 00:27:14,419 Speaker 2: are based on animism where like an inanimate object is 481 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,170 Speaker 2: symbolic of like a larger thing or like the god 482 00:27:20,210 --> 00:27:22,930 Speaker 2: of wind or the god of rain. And so these 483 00:27:23,310 --> 00:27:27,580 Speaker 2: ancient dragons were considered gods of rain. And there were different– 484 00:27:27,910 --> 00:27:31,129 Speaker 2: there's different types. There's different kinds. But again, like the 485 00:27:31,170 --> 00:27:34,850 Speaker 2: fact that they are generally– um beneficial to humankind rather 486 00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:39,910 Speaker 2: than harmful i think is is it's it's interesting it's 487 00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:42,390 Speaker 2: i wonder what that says about the two different cultures 488 00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:45,150 Speaker 2: if anything you know that dragons are harmful and they're 489 00:27:45,170 --> 00:27:46,629 Speaker 2: going to kill you and they're going to steal all 490 00:27:46,670 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 2: your gold or they're going to bring the rain that's 491 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 2: going to grow the food that saves your family you 492 00:27:51,420 --> 00:27:53,860 Speaker 2: know where did that diverge or did it just they 493 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,260 Speaker 2: just don't have anything to do with one. 494 00:27:55,220 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 3: Another yeah that's interesting um Sort of a side note, 495 00:27:59,619 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 3: I've been playing video games some during the pandemic, which 496 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 3: I'm usually not a big gamer. But I've been playing 497 00:28:05,380 --> 00:28:09,959 Speaker 3: a game lately called Ghost of Tsushima, which is you 498 00:28:09,980 --> 00:28:12,740 Speaker 3: play a samurai warrior that's sort of traveling through Japan 499 00:28:12,810 --> 00:28:13,570 Speaker 3: in ancient times. 500 00:28:13,890 --> 00:28:14,070 Speaker 2: Right. 501 00:28:14,510 --> 00:28:18,070 Speaker 3: And it's really interesting to compare that to like the 502 00:28:18,130 --> 00:28:20,890 Speaker 3: analog for the West would be like Red Dead Redemption 503 00:28:20,930 --> 00:28:22,530 Speaker 3: in the Old West with gunslingers. 504 00:28:22,650 --> 00:28:22,870 Speaker 2: Yeah. 505 00:28:23,410 --> 00:28:27,270 Speaker 3: And it's just such a different... game design and everything. 506 00:28:27,350 --> 00:28:29,570 Speaker 3: It's the, the one in Japan is, or the ghost 507 00:28:29,609 --> 00:28:32,929 Speaker 3: of Tsushima is so peaceful. It's one of the most 508 00:28:32,970 --> 00:28:36,070 Speaker 3: beautiful games I've ever seen. And instead of like a 509 00:28:36,130 --> 00:28:38,490 Speaker 3: map telling you where to go, you press a button 510 00:28:38,530 --> 00:28:41,850 Speaker 3: and the wind guides you. And if you see a Fox, 511 00:28:41,890 --> 00:28:43,990 Speaker 3: you follow the Fox up to a shrine and you, 512 00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:47,270 Speaker 3: and you pay your respects to the shrine. And it, 513 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,820 Speaker 3: it doesn't really get you much other than it's not 514 00:28:50,860 --> 00:28:52,500 Speaker 3: like you get like a million points or something for 515 00:28:52,540 --> 00:28:55,590 Speaker 3: doing that. It seems like they really tried to honor 516 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,550 Speaker 3: Japanese traditions in so much of this game. And the 517 00:28:59,590 --> 00:29:03,970 Speaker 3: motivations are always pure. Like even when you're slicing guys 518 00:29:04,050 --> 00:29:07,980 Speaker 3: up with your katana, it's because you're rescuing some old 519 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:08,780 Speaker 3: lady in a village. 520 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:09,460 Speaker 2: Yeah. 521 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,020 Speaker 3: Whereas the other game is just like, hey, just go 522 00:29:12,060 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 3: and just pillage and murder and do awful things. 523 00:29:15,180 --> 00:29:16,070 Speaker 2: Shoot them up, yeah. 524 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,430 Speaker 3: It's really interesting. I'm much more enjoying this game. 525 00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:21,810 Speaker 2: Well, you said something that struck a memory in me 526 00:29:21,930 --> 00:29:29,580 Speaker 2: about dragons. There's a commonality between Asian dragons, particularly Chinese dragons, 527 00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:34,890 Speaker 2: which are called long or lung, L-U-N-G, and Western dragons. 528 00:29:34,950 --> 00:29:38,470 Speaker 2: And typically they live in isolated areas away from everybody. 529 00:29:39,210 --> 00:29:42,850 Speaker 2: And in Asia, the chinese dragons usually live in old 530 00:29:42,930 --> 00:29:46,810 Speaker 2: ruined temples like that's where you'll find them dwelling oh 531 00:29:46,850 --> 00:29:49,540 Speaker 2: interesting there are plenty of those in that game exactly 532 00:29:49,630 --> 00:29:51,300 Speaker 2: so are there dragons in that. 533 00:29:51,210 --> 00:29:54,580 Speaker 3: Game not yet but now i'm kind of wondering oh. 534 00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:57,020 Speaker 2: Yeah look out it's pretty early because i did run 535 00:29:57,060 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: across a japanese type of dragon that um That is malevolent, 536 00:30:02,060 --> 00:30:04,470 Speaker 2: not very nice. I don't remember the name of it, 537 00:30:04,540 --> 00:30:06,940 Speaker 2: so I guess be on the lookout for all of them. 538 00:30:07,740 --> 00:30:12,050 Speaker 3: Interesting. Yeah, so far there's nothing supernatural. It's Mongols that 539 00:30:12,150 --> 00:30:13,550 Speaker 3: are the bad guys. I gotcha. Yeah. 540 00:30:14,290 --> 00:30:16,710 Speaker 2: And then there's another type of Japanese dragon I ran 541 00:30:16,750 --> 00:30:19,970 Speaker 2: across called Ryu. And this one actually bears a lot 542 00:30:20,010 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 2: in common to the intelligent Western dragon in that it 543 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: writes poetry. 544 00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:25,620 Speaker 3: Hmm. 545 00:30:25,970 --> 00:30:31,340 Speaker 2: Yeah, it uses shed scales from its belly as paper. 546 00:30:31,860 --> 00:30:34,860 Speaker 2: And I don't know what it uses for ink, but 547 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,060 Speaker 2: I think it uses its tail as a pen, a quill. 548 00:30:37,460 --> 00:30:38,300 Speaker 3: The blood of a virgin? 549 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 2: Writes poetry. Yeah, there you go. 550 00:30:40,860 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 3: It's like that was a sweet story. 551 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: It's super nice except for that one thing. Yeah. 552 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 3: Oh, if we could just get it some ink. 553 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: Right. 554 00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 3: There's something else I think people should look up here 555 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 3: if you're looking up images, which is an artist named 556 00:30:53,220 --> 00:30:58,470 Speaker 3: Chen Rong, C-H-E-N-R-O-N-G. Yeah. A very famous painter in Asia 557 00:30:58,530 --> 00:31:02,230 Speaker 3: of dragons. And this was like 13th century AD. And 558 00:31:02,250 --> 00:31:03,750 Speaker 3: if you look up some of this stuff, it's really, 559 00:31:03,790 --> 00:31:04,490 Speaker 3: really neat looking. 560 00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. About the same time as Peraltus' Theological Miscellany was 561 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 2: done with that first Western dragon, Chen Rong was making 562 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 2: these just amazing works of art. I think one of 563 00:31:18,260 --> 00:31:21,980 Speaker 2: them's in the Boston Museum of Fine Art. Oh, cool. 564 00:31:22,180 --> 00:31:26,460 Speaker 2: It's called like Nine Dragons or something. But it reminded 565 00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 2: me of the artwork in the original Scary Stories to 566 00:31:31,180 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: Tell in the Dark series. 567 00:31:32,980 --> 00:31:33,820 Speaker 1: I never read that. 568 00:31:34,420 --> 00:31:36,700 Speaker 2: Dude, that artwork in there is just amazing. But it 569 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 2: has like all these weird kind of splotchy clouds of ink. 570 00:31:41,420 --> 00:31:45,239 Speaker 2: And Chen Rong makes use of that as well. It's 571 00:31:45,310 --> 00:31:49,630 Speaker 2: really kind of startling how closely the two resemble. I 572 00:31:49,670 --> 00:31:52,550 Speaker 2: wonder if the artist from... Scary Stories of Telling the 573 00:31:52,570 --> 00:31:54,590 Speaker 2: Dark was inspired by that in some way. 574 00:31:54,610 --> 00:31:57,650 Speaker 3: I bet. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. 575 00:31:58,170 --> 00:32:01,210 Speaker 2: No. No, that's not ripping off at all. I don't 576 00:32:01,230 --> 00:32:03,020 Speaker 2: know why you'd even say that. Why would you even 577 00:32:03,060 --> 00:32:03,950 Speaker 2: bring ripping off up? 578 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:08,300 Speaker 3: Yeah. 579 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 2: So we should probably talk about famous dragons at this 580 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,980 Speaker 2: point because we've thrown a couple out, like the one 581 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 2: from Beowulf, who apparently doesn't even have a name. 582 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 583 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,860 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, there are so many stories in 584 00:32:19,900 --> 00:32:24,810 Speaker 3: literature about and movies, obviously, that have had dragons throughout 585 00:32:24,830 --> 00:32:29,790 Speaker 3: the years. Certainly Tolkien in the mid-1930s when he wrote 586 00:32:29,810 --> 00:32:35,490 Speaker 3: The Hobbit. This was a really evil dragon and, you know, 587 00:32:35,930 --> 00:32:39,730 Speaker 3: drawn from that Western sort of influence of evil dragons. 588 00:32:40,010 --> 00:32:40,830 Speaker 2: Smaug, right? 589 00:32:41,510 --> 00:32:46,870 Speaker 3: Yeah, S-M-A-U-G. Dungeons and Dragons in the 70s was a 590 00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:52,209 Speaker 3: very big sort of I don't know how much dragons 591 00:32:52,250 --> 00:32:55,030 Speaker 3: had fallen out of the sort of pop culture eye, 592 00:32:55,410 --> 00:32:57,190 Speaker 3: but it really brought it back in if it did 593 00:32:57,230 --> 00:33:01,370 Speaker 3: fall out. Because in the game, there were different kinds 594 00:33:01,410 --> 00:33:04,710 Speaker 3: of dragons. There were a couple of different sets who 595 00:33:04,750 --> 00:33:09,230 Speaker 3: were indicated by different colors. Red, green, black, white, and blue, 596 00:33:09,290 --> 00:33:12,670 Speaker 3: I think, were evil. And then there were the bronze, brass, silver, 597 00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:16,020 Speaker 3: and gold, which were, for the most part, good. And 598 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 3: they all had different things they could do and different 599 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,570 Speaker 3: temperaments and Something that we talked a little bit about 600 00:33:21,610 --> 00:33:24,060 Speaker 3: is the fire breathing thing. There are lots of different 601 00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 3: theories as to how that came about. Maybe the tie 602 00:33:26,380 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 3: to Satan with fire early on when they were just serpents. 603 00:33:31,020 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 3: Perhaps they were drawn spitting venom and that could have 604 00:33:33,420 --> 00:33:34,170 Speaker 3: looked like fire. 605 00:33:34,190 --> 00:33:35,350 Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. 606 00:33:35,770 --> 00:33:40,410 Speaker 3: But there's always some sort of breath emitting weapon going on, 607 00:33:40,450 --> 00:33:40,930 Speaker 3: it seems like. 608 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Over time it's translated into, um, I think like 609 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,750 Speaker 2: the white dragon in Dungeons and Dragons blew like basically ice, 610 00:33:50,110 --> 00:33:56,850 Speaker 2: like cold. Um, some dragons, uh, uh, blew out electricity, um, 611 00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:58,550 Speaker 2: which you would think would be kind of new, but 612 00:33:58,650 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 2: apparently the Leviathan, which is mentioned in the Bible is 613 00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:07,420 Speaker 2: a sea dragon, basically supposedly spit electricity out. Um, But 614 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 2: there's something weird coming out of the dragon's mouth that's 615 00:34:10,219 --> 00:34:11,529 Speaker 2: probably going to kill you. 616 00:34:12,489 --> 00:34:14,649 Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't want to test that. 617 00:34:14,989 --> 00:34:20,750 Speaker 2: No. And we were saying also that the first visual 618 00:34:20,770 --> 00:34:25,710 Speaker 2: depiction of the dragon shows up in Harley 3244. The 619 00:34:26,770 --> 00:34:30,379 Speaker 2: first mention of the dragon in like a story, like 620 00:34:30,410 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 2: a fictitious story, supposedly comes in Spencer Edmonds' The Fairy Queen. 621 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:35,859 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah? 622 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,060 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then it shows up after that a little 623 00:34:38,100 --> 00:34:44,110 Speaker 2: while later in Marie Catherine Dolnois' The Green Serpent. And 624 00:34:44,130 --> 00:34:45,750 Speaker 2: then it just kind of takes off from there. 625 00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:49,740 Speaker 3: You know, you have a connection to Pete's Dragon, right? 626 00:34:49,969 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 2: I do. My friend Toby was a producer on Pete's Dragon. 627 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, for the remake, obviously. 628 00:34:55,739 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 2: Yes, which was really, really good. good and, and touching and, 629 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:01,700 Speaker 2: and tear jerking a little bit. 630 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,380 Speaker 3: I never saw the remake. I need to check that out. 631 00:35:03,580 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 2: It's, it's very good. They did a really good job 632 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:06,030 Speaker 2: with it. 633 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 3: Uh, but you know, if you haven't seen the movie 634 00:35:10,219 --> 00:35:12,989 Speaker 3: rain of fire, just stop what you're doing and watch 635 00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:15,630 Speaker 3: that because that is the King daddy of all dragon movies. 636 00:35:16,090 --> 00:35:18,510 Speaker 2: I have not seen that. Do we, should we pause, 637 00:35:19,010 --> 00:35:20,969 Speaker 2: come back and finish the episode after? 638 00:35:21,630 --> 00:35:25,739 Speaker 3: It's great. It's one of those movies that, um, I 639 00:35:25,780 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 3: don't know how well it did at the box office. 640 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,550 Speaker 3: I don't think super well, but it's one of those 641 00:35:29,590 --> 00:35:33,770 Speaker 3: that has really become sort of a cult classic since 642 00:35:33,830 --> 00:35:37,770 Speaker 3: then with McConaughey and Christian Bale. It's so over the 643 00:35:37,790 --> 00:35:41,669 Speaker 3: top and just so fun. It's really, really good. 644 00:35:42,270 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 2: So it's kind of like the Pacific Rim of dragon movies? 645 00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:47,020 Speaker 3: Yeah. 646 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,980 Speaker 2: Or Starship Troopers of dragon movies? 647 00:35:50,380 --> 00:35:51,580 Speaker 3: Oh, man, that's another great movie. 648 00:35:52,350 --> 00:35:54,770 Speaker 2: There's also Puff the Magic Dragon. Don't forget him. 649 00:35:55,190 --> 00:35:57,989 Speaker 3: God, the saddest song of all time. My mom taught 650 00:35:58,010 --> 00:35:59,110 Speaker 3: my daughter that. It's the worst. 651 00:35:59,630 --> 00:36:02,219 Speaker 2: Yeah. It has nothing to do with pot. So just, 652 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,820 Speaker 2: you know, forget that, hippie. 653 00:36:05,380 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 3: It's just sad. 654 00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 2: It is a very sad one. And then also I 655 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,580 Speaker 2: think our younger listeners would be really mad if we 656 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 2: didn't mention Dragon Ball Z. Right. 657 00:36:15,660 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 3: And there's, you know, I didn't watch Game of Thrones, 658 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,420 Speaker 3: but I know there were little trained dragons in that one. 659 00:36:20,660 --> 00:36:20,890 Speaker 1: Yeah. 660 00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:21,780 Speaker 3: That grew. 661 00:36:22,330 --> 00:36:25,689 Speaker 2: Yeah. And Chuck, it's just so satisfying to look over 662 00:36:25,830 --> 00:36:28,350 Speaker 2: all of the different depictions of dragons that you see 663 00:36:28,370 --> 00:36:31,740 Speaker 2: and all the differences and all the similarities and realize 664 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,580 Speaker 2: that all of them are talking about bees. Yeah. You know? Totally. Yeah. 665 00:36:37,060 --> 00:36:39,259 Speaker 2: You got anything else? I got nothing else. 666 00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:40,500 Speaker 3: There's dragons. 667 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,060 Speaker 2: Well, if you want to know more about dragons, head 668 00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 2: out to a ruined temple or maybe go search for 669 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 2: gold in a cave and you might encounter one yourself. 670 00:36:49,550 --> 00:36:51,430 Speaker 2: And since I said that, it's time for Listener Mails. 671 00:36:54,660 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 2: This is a story about corn and poop. Oh, God. 672 00:37:00,420 --> 00:37:03,410 Speaker 3: Hey, guys. Here's my corn story. One I've repeated often 673 00:37:03,430 --> 00:37:06,670 Speaker 3: throughout my lengthy life. I just turned 70. Woo-hoo. 674 00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:08,049 Speaker 2: Nice. Happy birthday. 675 00:37:08,070 --> 00:37:10,850 Speaker 3: So this is from Mary. Mary's 70. Well, not happy birthday, 676 00:37:10,890 --> 00:37:14,490 Speaker 3: but happy decade turning. 677 00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:15,590 Speaker 2: Okay. 678 00:37:15,830 --> 00:37:16,609 Speaker 3: What does that mean? 679 00:37:16,670 --> 00:37:18,069 Speaker 2: I think birthday still works. 680 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 3: No, but it wasn't her birthday necessarily. 681 00:37:20,780 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 2: Happy decade turning? I don't know what I'm saying. 682 00:37:23,260 --> 00:37:25,940 Speaker 3: Yeah, like when you hit 70 or 60 or 50. Sure. 683 00:37:26,060 --> 00:37:27,980 Speaker 2: No, I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm just 684 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 2: saying it's a new thing. 685 00:37:29,260 --> 00:37:31,379 Speaker 3: It's a rich history of saying happy, the song, happy 686 00:37:31,420 --> 00:37:32,020 Speaker 3: decade turning. 687 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 2: What song is that? 688 00:37:35,260 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 3: Happy, happy decade turning. 689 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 2: Is that a Bill Withers song? 690 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,220 Speaker 3: You made it another 10 years. Lean on me. 691 00:37:42,660 --> 00:37:45,450 Speaker 2: That's good. You guys see Jay's hands there. 692 00:37:46,430 --> 00:37:48,150 Speaker 3: Man, I think I awkwardly got my way out of 693 00:37:48,190 --> 00:37:49,350 Speaker 3: that really awkward sentence. 694 00:37:49,489 --> 00:37:50,469 Speaker 2: You did. It was really good. 695 00:37:51,530 --> 00:37:53,730 Speaker 3: I grew up in Houston, Texas, guys. One blazing hot 696 00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:55,170 Speaker 3: summer day when I was about three or four, I 697 00:37:55,690 --> 00:37:57,589 Speaker 3: was out in the driveway standing around kind of checking 698 00:37:57,630 --> 00:38:00,029 Speaker 3: out the neighbor kid who was in her driveway, who 699 00:38:00,530 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 3: was about two. It's hotter than the blazes. Her name 700 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,299 Speaker 3: was Bianca. She was younger than me and still in 701 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,660 Speaker 3: the diaper phase of life, but it was so hot 702 00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 3: she wasn't wearing a diaper or anything else. Nature called 703 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,540 Speaker 3: to Bianca and voila, a couple of little poos were 704 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,549 Speaker 3: deposited on the cement. Being a curious child, I went 705 00:38:17,570 --> 00:38:19,589 Speaker 3: over to check it out and lo and behold, they're 706 00:38:19,630 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 3: in the poop. Embedded securely but definitely visible were corn kernels. 707 00:38:24,660 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 3: Unmasticated yellow against the brown corn kernels. 708 00:38:28,700 --> 00:38:31,720 Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, no, we got it. Just the corn kernels. 709 00:38:33,060 --> 00:38:35,860 Speaker 3: Thusly, I've never been able to look at corn nor, 710 00:38:35,969 --> 00:38:40,130 Speaker 3: God forbid, eat corn literally in any form ever since. 711 00:38:41,750 --> 00:38:43,410 Speaker 2: I could see that happening if it hit you in 712 00:38:43,450 --> 00:38:45,509 Speaker 2: just the right way, especially at a certain age. 713 00:38:45,930 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 3: Yep. She says, not even corn pone. Which I had 714 00:38:49,260 --> 00:38:51,100 Speaker 3: to look up. I didn't even know what corn pone was. 715 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:52,020 Speaker 3: It's like cornbread, I think. 716 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Not even corn pone? Good God, how have 717 00:38:56,020 --> 00:38:58,489 Speaker 2: you lived 70 years without corn pone? 718 00:38:59,510 --> 00:39:01,649 Speaker 3: A great emotional scar was born that day. The only 719 00:39:01,710 --> 00:39:03,910 Speaker 3: benefit of that experience is that whenever I want to 720 00:39:04,510 --> 00:39:07,049 Speaker 3: gross anyone out, I just pull out the corn and 721 00:39:07,070 --> 00:39:10,089 Speaker 3: the poop story. All adults hate it. All children are 722 00:39:10,130 --> 00:39:14,219 Speaker 3: gleefully grossed out by it. Love your show, guys. Especially 723 00:39:14,260 --> 00:39:17,210 Speaker 3: when y'all wander off topic and then wander back. I 724 00:39:17,230 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 3: think in the chili pepper episode, y'all wandered over to 725 00:39:19,620 --> 00:39:23,180 Speaker 3: Yoko Ono, which was interesting. And that is from Mary 726 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,620 Speaker 3: Foy in Issaquah, Washington. 727 00:39:26,350 --> 00:39:30,410 Speaker 2: Well, thanks. Well, yeah, I guess thanks in quotes. Mary, 728 00:39:30,489 --> 00:39:31,089 Speaker 2: for that one. 729 00:39:31,110 --> 00:39:31,890 Speaker 3: I love it. 730 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,140 Speaker 2: But thank you also for listening to us. If you 731 00:39:35,180 --> 00:39:37,219 Speaker 2: want to write in and kind of gross us out 732 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 2: like Mary did, we're always up for that kind of thing. 733 00:39:40,540 --> 00:39:43,460 Speaker 2: You can take your best shot. Send it off to 734 00:39:43,580 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 2: Stuff Podcast at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a 735 00:39:50,780 --> 00:39:52,060 Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio. 736 00:39:52,570 --> 00:39:55,669 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple 737 00:39:55,690 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 1: Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.