1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In it's Saturday. 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for a classic episode 4 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: of the show. Today we are airing part two of 5 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: the one that came out last weekend. So this is 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: Devour of Memories, Part two, originally published November twenty one, nineteen. 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: It continues the story from last weekend, So we hope 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: you enjoy. Let's dig right in. Welcome to Stuff to 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, a production of I Heart Radios How 10 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: Stuff Work. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 12 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our exploration of planarians, 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: memory learning and conditioning. And of course today we're going 14 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: to get to the cannibalism. That's right. If you did 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: not listen to part one, do go back and listen 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: to it, because we lay the groundwork. We discussed these 17 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: or isms, why they're interesting. We discussed their regenerative powers. 18 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: We talk about McConnell himself. We talk about his personal 19 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: and professional history as well as his run in with 20 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: the unit Bomber. Right, uh, So that figure, of course 21 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: is James V. McConnell, the American psychologist. But if you 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: listen to the last episode, as you should before this one, 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: you already know that. So we're picking up after McConnell's 24 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: initial research demonstrating in the nineteen fifties that despite conventional 25 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: wisdom that invertebrates could not learn, could not be trained 26 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: through classical conditioning or any other kind of associate of learning. Uh, 27 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: McConnell and colleagues did in fact demonstrate that that's not true, 28 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: at least for planarians, these flatworms, that that could be 29 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: trained to react to something like a light stimulus. And 30 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: we also discussed how it's just generally known to be 31 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: true today that invertebrates can learn. The conventional wisdom at 32 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: the time was wrong. But so to pick up with 33 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: McConnell's career. After completing his graduate degree at the University 34 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: of Texas, I almost said Jerry O'Connell, not Jerry O'Connell. 35 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: James McConnell moved on to the University of Michigan, where 36 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: he continued his research into flatworms with the team that 37 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: came to be known as the Polenarian Research Group or 38 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: PR g So another piece of context for this research 39 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: is a sort of quest for the holy Grail within 40 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: twentieth century psychology and neuroscience, and this was the hunt 41 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: for the elusive ingram. It was believed by many in 42 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: the mid century that a researcher, that the first researcher 43 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: to actually pinpoint something known as the ingram, would receive 44 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: the Nobel Prize for their work. But what was the ingram? 45 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: The short version is that the ingram was believed to 46 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: be the fundamental physical unit of memory represented in the body. 47 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: In order for an animal to learn an association between 48 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: two things, that memory has to be accompanied by some 49 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: kind of physical change inside the body. But what is 50 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: the fun no mimental unit of that change. Is it 51 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 1: a structural change in the brain that can be located 52 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: or is it something else? So the idea is that 53 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: you would see the physical evidence of learning and then 54 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: potentially like that is physical evidence that could be then manipulated. 55 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, it's sort of like searching for the atom. 56 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: What the atom is to matter, the ingram would be 57 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: to memory. What is the fundamental unit that that physically 58 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: indicates in the body a memory has been formed? And 59 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: of course one motivation for studying whether simpler organisms like 60 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: worms and other invertebrates could in fact learn associations through 61 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: classical conditioning was that this might help move along the 62 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: search for the ingram. If a biological phenomenon seems too 63 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: complex to understand in one organism, you know, if you 64 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: can't find it in a rabbit, everything is just too complicated. 65 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: Maybe you can get a foothold to understanding by looking 66 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: for analogous phenomena in simpler organisms and then build your 67 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: way back up. And it's a sensible way to go 68 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: about it, of course. Uh So research in the middle 69 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century tried to locate the ingram two 70 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: changes in a specific part of the brain and a rat, 71 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: but these efforts failed. In fact, rat brain memory research 72 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: he demonstrated that there was no one location or structure 73 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: in which the fundamental unit of memory association was to 74 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: be found. Instead, learning seemed to involve wide swaths of 75 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: the rat cortex, and today we know that certain regions 76 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: of the brain are especially important for memories. For example, 77 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: fear based conditioning, like if you condition somebody to respond 78 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: to a stimulus through conditioning due to an electric shock, 79 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: that this seems to strongly implicate the amygdala, not just 80 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: fear actually, but other types of emotional memory as well. 81 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,239 Speaker 1: I think while memory of spatial locations and physical maps 82 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: seems especially to implicate the hippocampus, But memories for complex 83 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: actions maybe finding your way around a maze, as was 84 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: often tried with rats, will involve lots of different parts 85 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: of the brain at so you can't point to the 86 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: memory in one specific part of the brain. It's using 87 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: the whole brain basically. In the nineteen fifties, this wasn't 88 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: yet clear. It was It was just clear that memory, 89 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: contrary to the expectations of many psychologists, couldn't be located 90 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: in one particular structure or single point physical change in 91 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: the brain. And because of the failure of researchers to 92 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: locate a structural ingram at a single point in the brain, 93 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: some researchers began to turn to other explanations, and McConnell 94 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: was one of them. McConnell wondered, what if memories were 95 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: not stored exclusively in structures in the brain. Could you 96 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: have memories in your hands, in your blood, in your guts. 97 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: Was there a deeper chemical rather than structural basis for 98 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: our memories. And here's where the planarians again become an 99 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: invaluable research tool in looking into could you have memories 100 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: outside the brain? Could there be such a thing as 101 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: a memory chemical or a memory molecule found throughout the body. 102 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: And yeah, this we come back to the regenerative powers 103 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: of the planarian. We described this in the first episode 104 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: as being something like The Sorcerer's Apprentice, the old Disney 105 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: animation from Fantasia, in which the uh what what is it? 106 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: It's a broom that is brought to life to do 107 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: a particular task to carry water from a well, I think, 108 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: and then yeah, it was it's a well. And then 109 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: and then Nikki, the Sorcerer's Apprentice in this case, ends 110 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: up having to to destroy it. So he chops in 111 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: into a million pieces with his axe, and then all 112 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: those millions of pieces, each little sliver of the broom 113 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 1: comes back to life and grows into a whole new, fresh, 114 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: uh broom with that walks around on two legs and 115 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: carries buckets of water. Right, And this connects to the 116 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: regenerative powers of planaria, because if you cut a planarian 117 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: in half, one of these flatworms just chop it in 118 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: half crosswise, separating the head from the tail. Each half 119 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: of the worm would grow the part it lost, So 120 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: the decapitated head could regrow a tail, and the decapitated 121 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: tail could regrow ahead, which means regrowing a brain. So 122 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: McConnell's question was, if I condition a flat worm to 123 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: learn something, maybe have a response to a stimulus like 124 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: a flashing light, and then I cut it in half, 125 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: which half of the worm will retain the response if 126 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: either Now you might think the answer is obvious, right, Well, 127 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: obviously the head half is where the brain is, so 128 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: the head half will retain the conditioning if either side does, 129 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: and the tail half won't. Right that that seems like 130 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: the obvious conclusion, right, Yeah, that's what you would assume. 131 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: That's what like a basic understanding of monster movies would 132 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: have you assumed. Yes, McConnell found this was not exactly 133 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: true in his experiments on freshwater flat worms called dogs 134 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: a Dorado cephala. If you classically condition the worm to 135 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: respond to a light and then you cut the flat 136 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: worm into two halves, both halves retained the condition ng, 137 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: and in a few cases the tail retained the conditioning 138 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: more strongly than the head. So you could cut the 139 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: head off, the tail would regrow ahead, and it would 140 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: still respond like the way it had learned to respond 141 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: when it had its original head. So if all the 142 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: learning was in the brain, how could that be possible? Right? 143 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: This would seem to indicate that there's some sort of 144 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: memory retention or memory storage going on within the body itself. Right, 145 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: And these results were eventually published in the Journal of 146 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: Comparative and Physiological Psychology. But then it gets even weirder 147 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: because we're going to start playing flat worm Ship of Theseus? 148 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: Uh So a refresher on the Ship of Theseus thought experiment, Robert, 149 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: do you want to do the honors here? Oh? Sure? 150 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: This is the basic idea. If you you have this ship, 151 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: for this legendary Ship of Theseus, you're celebrating it across 152 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 1: the decades. Think about it. Is a ship that is 153 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: docked for decades tends to fall apart piece by piece, 154 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: so you replace it piece by piece. Eventually you reach 155 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: the point where you have replaced every single piece of 156 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: this vessel. The question is, is the Ship of Theseus 157 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: any longer the Ship of Theseus? Is it? It's It's 158 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: not physically the same ship it was before, but it 159 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: is the same shape. It's just all the pieces have 160 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: been at this point replaced. Now, what if you in 161 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: fact do this with flatworms since they can regenerate, And 162 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: this is exactly what they tried in a series of experiments. 163 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: McConnell and the Planarian Research Group showed that if you 164 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: cut a word, like, for example, you cut a flat 165 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: worm's head off after it's been conditioned and trained, so 166 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 1: it has this memory response, and then that tail regrows ahead, 167 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: and then you cut the original tail off, so the 168 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: regenerated head regrows a tail. Now you've got no original 169 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: part of the worm left. So you've been through these 170 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: multiple generations of cutting a worm apart and letting it regenerate, 171 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: and yet their experiments found that some learning training memory 172 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 1: was retained across the multiple generations where there was no 173 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: original part of the worm left. Again, how would this 174 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: be possible? Like if memories are stored exclusively in the brain, 175 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: how could a memory necessary to establish a conditioned response 176 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: still operate within a tail that had its head cut off, 177 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: or a segment of a worm grown from a segment 178 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: of a worm grown from a segment of a worm 179 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: that had been through the conditioning, and this led McConnell 180 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: to suppose that he had evidence that memory may have 181 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: strong chemical components. They're not limited to activity within the brain. 182 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: There could be actual molecules of chemical memory coursing through 183 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: the worm's body. Now, if this were true, this would 184 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: of course be a revolutionary discovery, right right right, because 185 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: of course it would conceivably apply to other organisms. I mean, 186 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: that's that's the thing. It might force us to completely 187 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: rethink what we thought we knew about memory, right And 188 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: of course if it were true of flat worms, as possible, 189 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: it would only be true of flat worms. But yeah, 190 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: you don't know where else this would lead. Could it 191 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: even be true of more complex animals. So it was 192 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: this line of research about cut up flatworms retaining memories 193 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: that led actually to the founding of the magazine we 194 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: talked about in the last episode, The Worm Runners Digest. 195 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: This was McConnell's magazine that quite strangely combined both real 196 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: research on on planarians. It was like real flatworm research 197 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: published alongside weird poems and joke articles and satirical articles 198 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: and stuff. It's such a weird title. The worm part 199 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: clearly relates to the worm experiments. But it also brings 200 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: to mind like blade Runner, except it's worm runner. And 201 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: it also makes me think of various Gary Larson far 202 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: Side cartoons which a worm is perhaps, you know, wearing 203 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: sweatpants and linn running. That's good, But the joke and 204 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: title in the title is actually a reference to like 205 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: common terms used by psychologists of this period, lots of 206 00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: research about learning and memory involved rats and mazes, and oh, 207 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: researchers who did this kind of work referred to themselves 208 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: jokingly in the nineteen fifties as rat runners. McConnell's variation 209 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: is self explanatory. Jerry the worm Runner, not Jerry Jr. 210 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: Jerry O'Connell, James JF there James the worm Runner then, 211 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: but yeah, actually so coming back. So this led to 212 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: the founding of this strange magazine that he became very 213 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: well known for. Uh. The story has summarized by Larry Stern, 214 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: and I mentioned several sources at the beginning of the 215 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: last episode. We're still referring to those sources in this episode. 216 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: One was an article by Larry Stern that that talked 217 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: about the founding of this magazine. So in nineteen fifty nine, 218 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: McConnell presented some of this work uh this work about 219 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: chopping up flat worms and then supposedly retaining memories to 220 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: an annual convention of the American Psychological Association the a 221 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: p A. And this included results collected by a member 222 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: of the planary in research group named Riva Jacobson. And again, 223 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: this research showed that not only could a decapitated flatworm 224 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 1: retain associate of learning, but essentially the ship of THESEUS 225 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: flatworm containing no tissue of the original worm could also 226 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: retain learning. And after the presentation, Newsweek published an article 227 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: summarizing the research. This led to a huge surge of 228 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: popular interest in McConnell's work, and so Larry Stern writes quote. 229 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: Shortly after the Newsweek coverage, McConnell was inundated with letters 230 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: from high school students from around the country asking where 231 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: they could obtain worms for their projects and how they 232 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: should go about caring for and training them. Some students, 233 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: according to McConnell, demanded that he sent them a few 234 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: hundred trained worms at once, as their projects were due 235 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: within days. It sounds a little familiar, right, Students don't 236 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: do things like this, But McConnell did want to help 237 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: students conduct their own flatworm research. I get the feeling 238 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: he was into this idea, but he realized very quickly 239 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:52,719 Speaker 1: that it didn't make sense to try to respond to 240 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: each letter individually, so instead he decided to publish a 241 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: manual on how to replicate the experiments performed by the PRG, 242 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: and he titled this document The Worm Runners Digest. However, 243 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: after publishing this manual under that title, McConnell started getting 244 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: submissions to appear in future issues, so he began publishing 245 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: this so called journal on a regular basis, again, including 246 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: both real research and psychological in jokes, cartoons, poems, and 247 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff interesting, So it's kind of 248 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: accidentally became a continuing publication. Yeah. Now, as you can imagine, 249 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: some people didn't take kindly to this mix of subject matter. 250 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty four, after some readers complained that they 251 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: couldn't tell the real research from the jokes and the satire, 252 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: they started publishing the satirical elements upside down in the 253 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: back half of the journal. So there was some attempt 254 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: there to clear up the confusion. But I think for 255 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: a lot of scientists, the pure proximity of the different 256 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: material was was a problem no matter how clear the division. Well, 257 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: I think that's understandable. We talked before about the Ignoble Prizes, 258 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: for instance, about most of the individuals involved and honored 259 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: by these prizes that celebrate, you know, scientific studies that 260 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: are legitimate scientific studies, but that are in on some 261 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: level humorous or amusing. But you still have some individuals 262 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: in the scientific world who do not see the value 263 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: of that. So if they're so, if feathers are ever 264 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: ruffled by the Ignoble Prizes, obviously something like this would 265 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: ruffle feathers as well. Yes, uh so. Then in nineteen 266 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: sixty seven there came another split where the serious half 267 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: of the journal was just formally cleaved and renamed in 268 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: fact cloven and half like a flatworm, uh, chopped right off, decapitated. 269 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: The serious half was renamed the Journal of Biological Psychology, 270 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: and the worm runners Digest became the soul Haven of Humor, 271 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: and it continued publishing that way until all. Right, on 272 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: that note, we're going to take a quick break, but 273 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: we will be right back. Alright, We're back alright, So 274 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: to jump back into the progression of James McConnell's research. 275 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: We're we're brought back to this uestion of a non 276 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: brain chemical basis for memory. Couldn't memory, or at least 277 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: some memory, some types of memories be stored chemically rather 278 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: than structurally dispersed in the body, in molecules. And here's 279 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: where we get to the cannibalism. So if there were 280 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: in fact molecules within an animal representing some kind of 281 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: chemical memory, such as memory of how to navigate a maze, 282 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: could this be demonstrated? Could those molecules be shared from 283 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: one animal to another? And this makes sense, that's what 284 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: creatures do. They take molecules from each other, from other 285 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: organisms and put them into themselves. Sure, we absorbed the 286 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: molecules existing in other organisms for nutrition. Uh so maybe 287 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: you could molecules be absorbed from one organism to another 288 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: four memory transfer. So the first method they tried, and 289 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: this is based on the reporting of one of those 290 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: Larry Stern articles. The first method they tried was to 291 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: splice the head of a conditioned worm onto the tail 292 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: of an unconditioned worm to see if it would share molecules, 293 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: right to force them to exchange the alleged memory molecules, 294 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: but the transplant did not work. The head would not 295 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: stay attached. Then they tried to liquefy fully conditioned flatworms 296 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: and inject their juice into untrained worms, but this was 297 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: also difficult. The planarians were too small to be injected basically, 298 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: and sometimes they exploded when injected. In Larry Stern's words, quote, 299 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: it was like trying to impale a prune with a 300 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,239 Speaker 1: javelin a lot of horrific things done to diplanarians in 301 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: these experiments. I guess they are a simple enough organisms 302 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: that have to be so upset about them, I guess, 303 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: But it's still one can't help but pause a little 304 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: on some of these, right, some of the grinding, the sauce, 305 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: the gravy, the flatworm sauce. So how do you get 306 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: those hypothetical memory molecules in there? If you can't inject them, 307 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: you can't transplant ahead on. So the next route they tried, 308 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: and this in the year nineteen sixty was experimental planarian cannibalism. 309 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: This would be the old fashioned way of getting molecules 310 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: from one organism into the other. Sure, so apparently the 311 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: idea came from a flatworm researcher named Jay Boyd Best, 312 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: who communicated to McConnell about the fact that one particular 313 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: species of planarian was known for cannibalistic behavior. So here's 314 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: the answer. You train the worms to respond to to 315 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,479 Speaker 1: a maze or to the light, whatever the conditioning stimulus is, 316 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 1: and then they learn the conditioning and then you grind 317 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: them up into worm gravy, and then you feed the 318 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: worm gravy to the untrained naive worms, and you see 319 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: what happens. And astonishingly, their early experiments with this method 320 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: looked very promising, including a number of early replication attempts 321 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: with blinding procedures to remove the possibility of experiment or bias, 322 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: supposedly confirming their early results. So, if it were true 323 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: that memory molecules are being exchanged through this strange cannibalistic ritual, 324 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: could I, you know, with this extend to humans? Could 325 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: could I drink your flesh and gain your memories? And 326 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: how was it happening? What was the chemical basis here? 327 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: So one interesting line of reasoning here followed from the 328 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: still somewhat recent discoveries about genetic information being stored in 329 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: and mediated by nucleic acids DNA and RNA remember, you know, 330 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: we're not too far from from the discovery of the 331 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: double helix here. So, if DNA and RNA could be 332 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: involved in an information management process passing genetic information across 333 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: generations from parents to offspring, could the same molecules also 334 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: in code and mediate other types of information? I mean 335 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: information is in the DNA. So specifically, could the information 336 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: content of memories somehow be coded into DNA or RNA 337 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: and then dispersed through the body, but also transferred from 338 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: one body to another. And so this is the line 339 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: they took. A McConnell and his team conducted experiments and 340 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: published results that seemed to back up the idea, at 341 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: least for a while, that RNA played some important role 342 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: in facilitating memory, and that RNA could be used to 343 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: chemically inoculate naive worms with the memory associations of their 344 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: more worldly predecessors. And again, just consider how revolutionary this 345 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: would be If it turned out to be true. You'd 346 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: be forced to wonder how far the principle could be taken. 347 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: What did this only apply to planarians or did it 348 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: extend to other more complex animals. Would there be ways 349 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: in which humans could undergo chemical learning? Could you train 350 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: the mind in some way with an injection alone or 351 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: even a pill. Even if it only worked for like 352 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 1: broad associative learning such as you know, the kind of 353 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: things you get through classical conditioning with an electric shock 354 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: and a single stimulus, you could still possibly imagine profound benefits. 355 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: Just one idea comes to mind, like say you're struggling 356 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: with a drug addiction. You could you seek out an 357 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: injection of of memory molecules to establish a strong averse 358 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: reaction to your drug of choice such that you wouldn't 359 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: want to take it anymore. Yeah, Or to get into 360 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: some of the behavioral his ideas that we discussed in 361 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: the first episode, some of those ideas that that that 362 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: McConnell's very outspoken about it, even later in life. You 363 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: could have some sort of a cocktail that could be 364 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: injected into an individual that had a history of violence 365 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: and history of of you know, breaking the law and 366 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: rebelling against authority figures, and you could potentially fix them 367 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: with this injection. Yeah. And of course there you get 368 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: into the more nefarious possible thing, like you can probably 369 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: instantaneously imagine so many horrible, insidious uses for injectable conditioning. 370 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: If such a thing were possible. Oh yes, I mean, 371 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: as with any science, many many fabulous uses come to mind, 372 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: but so many nightmares as well. But we should stop 373 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: and be real for a second here. Even if these 374 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: findings had turned out to be totally solid for plenaria 375 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: and more on that in a moment, we should know 376 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: better than to freely extrapolate from worms to humans. I 377 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: think this is one of the most classic traps that 378 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: people fall into and interpreting biological research. I'd say more 379 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: often as people extrapolating from like rats to humans. But 380 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: this isn't a much larger jump. This isn't even a 381 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: vertebrate animal. Yeah, I mean, you can't help. I often 382 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: find that I can't help, but but at least think 383 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: about that on some level when I read a science headline, 384 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 1: I can't help it. Put myself into into it somehow 385 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: and imagine myself as the creature, right, And it's often 386 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just done right there in the press. Again, 387 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: it's fine to wonder about what possibilities could be implied 388 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: by studies in rats for humans, but you can't just 389 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: you know, conclude from one to another. We can't help 390 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: but anthropomorphize virtually any creature, and if that creatures in 391 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: a study, we're also going to end up anthropomorphizing that 392 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: as well. But James McConnell, true to form, as we 393 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: know from the last episode, was not one to be 394 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: shy or cautious about interpreting his findings. He loudly proclaimed 395 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: them to the public, advertising his results on TV programs. 396 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: He apparently embraced the nickname mccannibal. Uh. And he predicted 397 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: an era of memory pills like we just discussed. So 398 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: you might be thinking, like, wait a minute, he should 399 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: know better than to extrapolate from planarian even if you 400 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: assumed the planarian research to be on solid uh. And 401 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: we'll introduce some caveats to that. But even if you 402 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: did assume that, how could you jump from that to 403 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: human memory pills? That seems like a you know, a 404 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: leap of miles of assumptions. Yeah, very much. And it 405 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 1: does seem from from what I was reading, especially in 406 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: Rilling's paper about McConnell, that it seemed like to him 407 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: he sort of had a sense of humor about talking 408 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: about memory pills, like as if he were sort of 409 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: joking when he talked about memory pills. But that was 410 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: not clear to the popular audience that was listening on 411 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: the TV. You know, they weren't psychologists. They didn't understand 412 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: that he was kind of kidding when he said that 413 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: makes sense, so certainly. And then also they're going to 414 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: be like a few different levels, so I could see 415 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: like he may joke about it here in this paper 416 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: or joke about it to this individual, but then you're 417 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: gonna have different levels of coverage and it's going to 418 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: get out of out of control pretty quickly. Yes, so 419 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: really writes that quote. McConnell's work on retention following regeneration 420 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: and Planaria provides a case study in sensational journalism and 421 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: illustrates how his media work escaped the normal mechanisms of 422 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: peer review. So the idea is that McConnell and colleagues 423 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: would do an experiment, they would obtain a very strange 424 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: and interesting result that looked solid enough to get published 425 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: in an academic journal, and then McConnell would immediately want 426 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: to engage in quote, wild sounding conjectures interpreting the meaning 427 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: of his results and how they would be applied in 428 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: the future. And scientific journals generally are like One example 429 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: was the editor Harry harlow Uh generally refused to publish 430 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: these wild interpretive or speculative addendums to the research. They 431 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: just say, well, we'll publish your study, but you've got 432 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: to cut out this section about memory pills that doesn't 433 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: belong in here. But of course there's no peer review 434 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: in the popular media. So he could go on TV 435 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: and say memory pills as much as he wanted, and 436 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: it turned out that that kind of thing on TV 437 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: gets you booked on TV again because it's exciting, right, 438 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's like something that people can picture, it's 439 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: not hard to understand, and it's it's very like what revolutionary. 440 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: That's what you want in a science segment on your 441 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: your news programs. You want something relatable, and here's this 442 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: guy that is making it relatable and exciting with promises 443 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: that are not at all implied by the research being discussed. 444 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: Even if the research itself is a solid and retrospectively 445 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: that maybe in doubt. So just one example, in nineteen 446 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: fifty nine, an article in Newsweek covering McConnell and the 447 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: PRG research claimed it may be that in schools of 448 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: future students will facilitate the ability to retain information with 449 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: chemical injections. Apparently, there was also a lot of misunderstanding 450 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: in the media, misunderstanding the fact that multiple generations of 451 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: regenerated planaria could retain training, and they misunderstood this is 452 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: the fact that memories can be inherited in apparent to 453 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: child sense, which led to all kinds of Lamarckian interpretation. 454 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: So I think there there's all. There was also just 455 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: confusion stemming from the use of the word inherited and generations. 456 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: He was talking about like generations being chopped up and regenerating, 457 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: which is quite different than what we understand, right, and 458 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: again he's coming down he's talking about memories here. There 459 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: are other things that you know, there's certainly things that 460 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: affect that have generational effects in biology and in human biology. 461 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 1: I think we've talked about studies before and about body 462 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: size following periods of starvation, that sort of thing. But 463 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: but again we're talking about memories here. He is explicitly 464 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: talking about memory. Yes, And and the one that that 465 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: was quoted in Rilling was regarding cannibalistic memory transfer, the 466 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: one where you eat the worm gravy and you gain 467 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: that worm's memories. Supposedly, there was a nineteen sixty four 468 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: article in the Saturday Evening Post that claimed we quote 469 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: might someday enable us or it might someday enable us 470 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: to learn the piano by taking a pill, or to 471 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: take calculus by injection, which at that point is is 472 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: very crude, gross, kind of like over interpretation of what 473 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: the memories here are and the you know, the leap 474 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: from one organism to another, you just like do a 475 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 1: line of ground up Beethoven. Yeah, I mean, this is 476 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: this is so outrageous that, like I I feel like 477 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: I would I would feel like I was over stretching 478 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: to use this as an outrageous example of a possibility, 479 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: you know, like earlier I I did the the far 480 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: future example of criminals being treated like this seems even 481 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: this is even seems crazier, but on the same hand 482 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: also attractive the idea of being able to, uh, say, 483 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: master calculus by simply in acting something into your body. Yeah, 484 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: though I hope also our questions about potential applications if 485 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: this were true were heavily caveat, so in the mid 486 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties there were even studies following up on this, 487 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: cannibalism research claiming to bear out chemical memory transferring other species, 488 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: such as in rats. Again, that's kind of hard to believe. 489 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: And so like. For a few years there in the sixties, 490 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: things looked incredibly promising with this research. But fortunately or unfortunately, 491 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: depending on how you look at it, it was not 492 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: to last. There was a problem with the p RGS 493 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: cannibalistic memory transfer research, and it was just that it 494 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: didn't hold up to sustained scrutiny over time. Over time 495 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: properly blinded and controlled efforts to replicate McConnell's results, a 496 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: few of them came in saying yeah, we replicated, but 497 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: a lot did not produce the same effects for cannibalism 498 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: or other chemical methods of memory transfer. According to Rilling 499 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one, I guess this would be as 500 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: a result of some of these failures, the Planary in 501 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: Research group lost its grand support and this led McConnell 502 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: to change focus. And after this in the seventies he 503 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: went on to write a very influential and from what 504 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: I can tell, mostly well regarded textbook for introductory psychology. Apparently, 505 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: one thing that set it apart in the field was 506 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: that it used a lot of fiction. It introduced students 507 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,479 Speaker 1: to psychological research methods with the use of stories and 508 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: like fictional framing narratives to explain the principles that were 509 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: discussed in each chapter, even including one chapter about memory, 510 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: it seems to begin with a fictionalized version of the 511 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: story of his research with Thompson in nineteen fifty four 512 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: five or so, uh, though incorporating lessons about control groups 513 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: that he had not learned very well back then, and 514 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: as we discussed more in the previous episode. Later in 515 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: his career, I think he was known more maybe for 516 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: being a fierce public advocate of the powers of behavior 517 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: modification through conditioning. Again, this was an era in which 518 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: behaviorist psychology was seen by many as a potentially revolutionary 519 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: scientific tool for minute control of human minds and lives. 520 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 1: This is the birth of the modern concept of brainwashing, right, 521 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: and McConnell wrote and appeared on TV arguing the behavioral 522 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: conditioning would fundamentally alter the nature of criminal justice in 523 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: democratic society itself. I think there was one article he 524 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: wrote that was titled something like we must brainwash criminals. Now, well, 525 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: that's a great headline though, no doubt about it. Yeah, certainly, 526 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: if you want to get the clicks. Uh, yeah, he 527 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: was maybe he maybe he was clickbait before the internet. 528 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: He does, he does seem very clickbaity. And this is 529 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: something some of his colleagues said about them. Is quoted 530 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: in the Rilling paper that he wanted to shock people. 531 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: He wanted to say things that would make people say, what, 532 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: what's this guy talking about? That can't be true? And 533 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: he said, you know, the idea was you you bring 534 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: people in by shocking them, and then you educate them 535 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: with the science. And you know, I guess that can 536 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: be an okay method if what you if what you 537 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: say in order to shock people isn't fund mentally dishonest 538 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: in some way, right, Yeah, I mean it's it's kind 539 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: of it kind of gets into a similar of like 540 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: leading with an example, you know, and sometimes it's an 541 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: outrageous example. Sometimes, like on this show, we we bring 542 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: up a monster, something fantastic, and we use that to 543 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: talk about something that is that is real and talk 544 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: about actual scientific studies or actual biology that someone matches 545 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: up to that. But well, I hope we never do. 546 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: I hope if we start with god Zilla, we don't 547 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: leave you with the impression at the end of the episode, 548 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: that Godzilla is real and true. Right, Yeah, But it 549 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: is interesting how it seems like some of the things 550 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: that did make him such a great communicator and ultimately 551 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: like a great author of an introductory psychology book. Uh, 552 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: those are also some of the things that got him 553 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: in trouble. Yeah, that totally seems to be true based 554 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: on everything I've read. But but coming back to the 555 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: memory transfer issue, I just want to say that I 556 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: think the conclusion, unfortunately at the end, is that the 557 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: cannibalistic memory transfer saga is widely regarded now as a 558 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: dead end. Despite a few reports of moderate replication successes, 559 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: McConnell's results ultimately did not hold up to widespread scrutiny 560 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: and the rigorous application of controls by others. And it 561 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: looks like his supposed discoveries about memory transfer through injection 562 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: or cannibalism were probably wrong, but not all of his 563 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: conclusions were necessarily wrong. I mean again, one of the 564 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: points of Rilling's article seems to be that despite the 565 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: ultimate failure of the memory transfer through cannibalism theory, McConnell 566 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: did make truly important contributions to research on invertebrate learning 567 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, and while the memory transfer, the 568 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: memory molecule transfer through cannibalism is almost definitely a dead end, 569 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: more recent studies have sort of raised the question of 570 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: whether his like decapitation and transplantation research might have been 571 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: on the right track. All Right, we're gonna take one 572 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: more break. When we come back, we're going to discuss 573 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: some of these modern follow ups regarding planarian decapitation and 574 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: brain transplant. Alright, we're back. So we discussed through through 575 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: the end of the career of of James V. McConnell, 576 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: who studied planarians memory memory transfer, or memories outside of 577 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: the brain, and we we brought up the idea that 578 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: this subject has been revisited by researchers just in the 579 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: past few years who think that while McConnell was probably 580 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: wrong about, like say, eating flat worms and gaining their memories, 581 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: there may be some truth to the idea of memories 582 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: somehow being stored outside the brain or transferred without a 583 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: full brain. Yeah. So, for instance, it has been demonstrated 584 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: that if you transplant the planarian's brain into another worm's body, uh, 585 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: it will result in at least partial recovery or of function, 586 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: even if the brain is put in backwards or transplanted 587 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: across species. Uh. The author Pagan, who we brought up earlier, 588 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: who wrote the first brain uh, he points this out, 589 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: points out that basically the cross species transplants held meaning 590 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: there was no rejection, and forty eight hours later the 591 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: worm retained mostly normal behavior. I mean, that's pretty weird, 592 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: but again it's worms. Like Yeah. One of the big 593 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: take comes from all of this is that planarian brains 594 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: and polinarian in general are strange. Right, So a lot 595 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: of what we determine what a lot of what we 596 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: learned from this research you could interpret as some fascinating 597 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: deeper insight about biology as a whole, or you could 598 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: interpret it as fascinating specific facts about these flatworms. Absolutely 599 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: h So in particular, though, the gun and there are 600 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: referring to a study by Davies at all, and they 601 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 1: were working with a species of planarian that actually can't 602 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: regenerate brain tissue, but a transplanted brain will take root 603 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: and quote nerves exiting the brain tended to join with 604 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 1: the peripheral nerves closest to them, which I think is 605 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: a hederful image of the brain being implanted in this 606 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: creature and then like the like the like roots forming, 607 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: like the vein connects itself, it hooks itself up like 608 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: a car battery that has been placed in the inside 609 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: another via a new vehicle, and all the things just 610 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: kind of hook up automatically, plug and play. Yeah. Well, 611 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: or like like mistletoe or some other kind of parasite 612 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: that like sticks, it's little, it's how stori um or whatever, 613 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: the little spikes down into the host. Yeah, it's it's 614 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: it's weird. It's definitely not the human experience. I mean 615 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: not to not to discuss, you know, the whole body 616 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 1: transplant or human brain and head transplant much in this episode, 617 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: but basically it's very complicated, if not impossible in humans. Yeah. Well, 618 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: and again to look at memory more broadly, neuroscientists today 619 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: mostly broadly understand memories to be neural networks, right. Networks 620 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: within the brains are strings of reinforced connections between neurons 621 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: and brain regions that specified memories by their cross linked structure. 622 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: A memory is in some way a series of connections 623 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: between neurons and the brain. Uh. Though that does seem 624 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: to be the case. Beyond that broad picture, there's still 625 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: a lot we don't know about the physical basis of memory, 626 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 1: and so even in especially in organisms like flatworms, there 627 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: are ways in which memory could be operating and that 628 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: are still mysterious to us right now. Of course, the 629 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: quest to solve these mysteries continues. A great deal of 630 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: planarian research is still going on, and you see quite 631 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: a bit of it come out of Tufts University, and 632 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: you'll see UM a researcher by the name of Michael 633 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: Levin often is a is a head author or co 634 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,399 Speaker 1: author or contributing author on these papers. Yeah, and there 635 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: was one big study that got some press being connected 636 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: back to McConnell's research that Levin was at least one 637 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: of the authors on UM and and basically it had 638 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: to do with replicating a version of the decapitation experiment 639 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: showing that somehow it appeared memory if the study was 640 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: designed properly and there wasn't some kind of flaw that 641 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: people didn't notice in there, that memories maybe were somehow 642 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 1: being transferred through the decapitation process. Right This is a 643 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen Tough University study that found that a 644 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: decapitated flat worm that grows a new head keeps its 645 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: old memories. Uh. For instance, the serahs sing article about this, 646 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: it appeared in Nautilus, carried the title decapitation but not cannibalism. 647 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: Might transmit memories without context. That's a pretty weird title, right, 648 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: But then within context of the article refers back to 649 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: McConnell's work quite a bit. And the idea here is 650 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: that some trace of the of memory might be stored 651 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: in neural circuits outside the brain. And certainly when you 652 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: take that and you compare it to these you know, 653 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 1: these other into this previous study. Uh, with with one 654 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: brain being dropped into a new creature, a new a 655 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 1: new individual and seeing it to you know, take root 656 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: and uh and seemingly bounced back. Uh, that becomes all 657 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,479 Speaker 1: the more interesting. Yeah. One of the things that has 658 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: clearly been the case, and this was discussed in that 659 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: article in the Verge we talked about in the last episode, 660 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: is that Levin's research has been focused on trying to 661 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: eliminate some of the problems that could have existed in 662 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 1: the original McConnell research. One example is that that he 663 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: helped to create um and a thing called an automatic 664 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: training apparatus. Basically, it's a robot for conditioning the flatworms 665 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: to take the human element element out of the training process, 666 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: to eliminate any kind of bias or error that could 667 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: be introduced that way. But I love the idea in 668 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: general of a robot for training worms. So that that 669 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen study especially generated quite a bit of interest, 670 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: and at the time there was there was mixed response 671 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: from the scientific community. Now, I do want to drive 672 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: home that it is not my interpretation that Michael Levan 673 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: is anything like a McConnell figure. He seems he seems 674 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,320 Speaker 1: to be a very suspected researcher, and most of his work, 675 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:00,720 Speaker 1: like I said, he's seeing on a lot of studies 676 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: for this general planaria research right now, I mean I 677 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: don't I haven't seen anything where Michael Levin is going 678 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: on TV and saying memory pills right right, uh and 679 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: and and by and large it seems like most of 680 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: his work just deals with with regeneration, uh in these 681 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 1: planaria worms. But yeah, so you had plenty of people 682 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: that that were supportive and thought that, you know, they 683 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: might be onto something. Others were a little critical at 684 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: the time. Robert Kintridge, as a it was a psychologist 685 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 1: at Durham University, and he pointed out in a two 686 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: fifteen Verge article that Verge article we cited earlier that 687 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: it might be simply related to quote behavior induced by 688 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: a stress hormone itself triggered by the the textualized petrie 689 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: dishes unquote. And to clarify, they're part of what the 690 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: study looked at to see conditioning in the flatworms was 691 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: you'd have these textured petrie dishes where they would be 692 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,399 Speaker 1: swimming around the food they were gonna eat, and how 693 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 1: fast they approached the food in a newly textured petrie 694 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: dish environment was taken as a signal of their memory 695 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: or familiarity with the environment. Like you put a new 696 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: flatworm and a textured petrie dish its circles for a 697 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: while before going for the food because it's exploring its environment. 698 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: It doesn't know. But after it's been trained with the 699 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: texture and a petrie dish, it goes straight for the 700 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: food because it already knows the environment. Right. Yeah. So 701 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: so basically a number of individuals said, well, there there 702 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,359 Speaker 1: are aspects of the study that could have been better designed. Sure. 703 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: Now again, Michael Levin his research continues, he and you 704 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: you'll find a number of studies from very recently that 705 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: he's been involved with. He was an author on a 706 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,720 Speaker 1: study earlier this year neural control of body plan access 707 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,719 Speaker 1: in regenerating planaria. And in two thousand fifteen he put 708 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,760 Speaker 1: out a paper on the planarian regeneration model is deciphered 709 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: by artificial intelligence and uh that same year he was 710 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 1: also a co author on another study, uh that included 711 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 1: the growth of extra heads. Yeah. I've seen also that 712 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: I think, both within and outside of planaria has just 713 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: generally studied regeneration. Yeah. And with the pouplinaria, of course, 714 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 1: it's it's just such an amazingly regenerative creature. You get 715 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: things like like this. Uh. The second study that I 716 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: mentioned from they were able to induce one species of 717 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: flat worm to grow heads and brains characteristic of another 718 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: species of flat worm without altering genomic sequence, and then 719 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: the individual later regenerated to the appropriate head shape. Huh. 720 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: Now quickly, I guess one thing worth discussing is if 721 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: the research associated with with Michael Levin is in fact correct, 722 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: the results are valid, there's not some kind of flaw 723 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,879 Speaker 1: we're missing in the design of the study. And uh, 724 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 1: and this is really going on the memories are surviving 725 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: the regeneration without an original brain. How would you interpret this, Like, 726 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,800 Speaker 1: what does it mean if this is in fact true? 727 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: Uh So, a couple of ideas are given in the 728 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: Verge article. Leven Hy Quote hypothesizes that memories could spread 729 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: beyond the brain thanks to electrical charges generated by cells 730 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: and the rest of the body. So there's some kind 731 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: of information encoding that's just like coming from cells in 732 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: the other body that are electrically stimulating something like a 733 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: memory response. But then there's another thing cited in the 734 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: same piece by Ava Jablanca, a developmental biologist at Tel 735 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: Aviv University, and she offers a speculative explanation involving particles 736 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: called quote small r n a s, which are short 737 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 1: copies of DNA, but they don't turn into proteins. They 738 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: don't generate proteins. So when a flatworm learns an association 739 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 1: or an episode, something in this model about the brain 740 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 1: chemistry would change, and then these changes alter the small 741 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: RNA's present in the body, which of course are not 742 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 1: confined to the brain because they migrate around between cells. 743 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: And by migrating around between cells, she says, perhaps they 744 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 1: end up in stem cells that remain in the body 745 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: after the worm's head is cut off, and to read 746 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: from the article quote, when the worm's head grows back, 747 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: the small rnais migrate back to the head, changing the 748 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 1: brain's chemistry and allowing it to learn certain behaviors more quickly. Um. 749 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: If true, the memory that Levin thinks is stored outside 750 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: the brain wouldn't be memory at all. Rather, the small 751 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: RNAs would allow the flatworm to recover a brain environment 752 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: that helps them learn a specific behavior more quickly. So 753 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,800 Speaker 1: the idea there is that if this speculative idea is correct, 754 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: and again she she's very clear to stay this, this 755 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: isn't something we know. Is just a speculative interpretation. Maybe 756 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: it works this way. Then what would be happening is 757 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: these little chemical molecules don't transmit the memory prepare the 758 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,840 Speaker 1: new brain to learn a memory that was previously learned 759 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,879 Speaker 1: more quickly. Okay, so at least we have a hypothetical 760 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 1: model of how this would actually work, which or at 761 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 1: least here's one model presented anyway, Sure, but ultimately we 762 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: don't know for sure. And again, another thing that we 763 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: don't know for sure is if these results do hold up. 764 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: Is this something that's specific to planaria. Is it flatworms 765 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: only that can transfer memories in this way, or could 766 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,400 Speaker 1: this be more applicable beyond flatworms to other organisms, because 767 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,319 Speaker 1: that's the thing. Other organisms can't regenerate like a like 768 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,879 Speaker 1: a planaria can. But at the same time, we one 769 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: of the one of the things that's often cited for 770 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: research and clanaria regeneration is that we might learn something 771 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: that could be appliable to humans, of course, especially and 772 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 1: we're not even getting into memory implantation, just the idea 773 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 1: that they have such impressive neural regenerative powers, the ability 774 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,479 Speaker 1: to regenerate like damaged brain cells. You know, if we can, 775 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: if we could develop some better method of doing that 776 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: based on our studies of these organisms, then that would 777 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: be tremendous. Of course. I mean though it when you 778 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: introduce the idea of brain regeneration or anything like that 779 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,240 Speaker 1: to a human context, things emerge that don't necessarily seem 780 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: to be of concern when you're talking about planaria. Planaria 781 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:11,240 Speaker 1: don't seem to have extremely distinct personalities, uh, you know humans, 782 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,919 Speaker 1: do you know, however much we want to joke about 783 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 1: humans acting like sheep and all being the same we 784 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: you know, we we've got a lot of different stuff 785 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,759 Speaker 1: going on in our heads. If you cut your head 786 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 1: off and regrw it, what indication would you have that 787 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,479 Speaker 1: the new head would be you in any sense other 788 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 1: than sharing your d n A. Well, I guess as 789 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: long as it's said all the right things and I 790 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 1: mean just go along just fine, it would be like 791 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: a psmbie perhaps, Well, I mean, would it? I guess 792 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 1: it would be a question of whether it would retain 793 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,280 Speaker 1: any memories from your life. You could you talk about 794 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 1: whether that might be stored in the body somehow, or 795 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: even if you assume it, okay, it retains no memories 796 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,800 Speaker 1: whatsoever because those are just stored in the brain. Whatever 797 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: may or may not be happening in flatworms doesn't happen 798 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: in all at all in humans. Even if you assume 799 00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:59,799 Speaker 1: all that, you'd also have to ask, like, what it's 800 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: per senality be the same as your as personality is 801 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 1: so shaped by life experience. I don't know. It makes 802 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,200 Speaker 1: me wonder has anyone ever considered creating as like a 803 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: science fiction yarn in which you look at what would 804 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 1: human society be like if we had regenerative properties like this, like, 805 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 1: what would war be like? What would uh what would 806 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: reproduction and society be like? I mean, granted, I think 807 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: the obvious answer, it would absolutely change everything. But the 808 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 1: fun thing about science fiction is you don't you don't 809 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 1: have to go all the way. You can just sort 810 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 1: of like tweak it, Like, what would this if we 811 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: if I were to look at this particular vision for 812 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,839 Speaker 1: a totally regenerative clinary in human species, then what could 813 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: I perhaps unravel about our actual human condition? Well? I 814 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: mean I think we pretty much all at some state, 815 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 1: at some point or other, get into a get into 816 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,320 Speaker 1: a place where not very happy with our own brain. 817 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,879 Speaker 1: We don't like the emotional patterns were feeling. Maybe we're 818 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,799 Speaker 1: ruminating in bad ways. I mean, this happens pretty often 819 00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 1: to people. So what if you had the option to 820 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: you get into a bad state like that, you know, 821 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:03,319 Speaker 1: you can just cut your head off and grow a 822 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: new one. These are exactly what the horrifying orange creatures 823 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: in Labyrinth they're all about when they come up to 824 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,719 Speaker 1: Sarah and they encourage your Hey, take your own head off, 825 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,359 Speaker 1: throw it around, try on a different head, Let your 826 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,760 Speaker 1: head try it out, try itself out on a different body. 827 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 1: See how it shakes out. Just you know, have to 828 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 1: have a little fun. You're not a flat worm. Don't 829 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,360 Speaker 1: try it people, All right, We're gonna go ahead and 830 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 1: close this out then, but we hope that you have 831 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,839 Speaker 1: enjoyed and then learned from this exploration. Perhaps you'll think 832 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,720 Speaker 1: of flat worms in a new light now, and perhaps 833 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: you will even second guest memory a little bit as well. 834 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:42,279 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out other 835 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, you'll find them 836 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,320 Speaker 1: it Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mothership, 837 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,320 Speaker 1: and you can also find our podcast hack just about 838 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,319 Speaker 1: everywhere else anywhere you get the podcast, though, we do 839 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,359 Speaker 1: ask that you leave us a nice review, leave us 840 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,799 Speaker 1: some stars, that sort of that make sure you've subscribed. 841 00:47:57,880 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: That kind of thing really helps us out in the 842 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: long run. Also, if you want other shows who were 843 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 1: involved with there is Invention. Invention is a journey through 844 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: human techno history, one invention at a time. Go check 845 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:11,920 Speaker 1: that out. It's an Invention pod dot com and you 846 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:13,960 Speaker 1: can also find it anywhere you get your podcasts. Just 847 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:18,440 Speaker 1: look up Invention. If you want a little serialized horror 848 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,600 Speaker 1: sci fi for your holiday season, check out the second 849 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,880 Speaker 1: oil age that is out as well. And I'm also 850 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:25,919 Speaker 1: told that the Stuff to Blow Your Mind t shirt 851 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,719 Speaker 1: shop UH is not only still around it, it has 852 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,720 Speaker 1: been around UH and it still has all those wonderful 853 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,880 Speaker 1: squirrel and basilisk and buy Camera and Mind designs, as 854 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: well as their logo design. 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