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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stephan never told you productive of iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 2: and today we come with a happy update. I will

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Speaker 2: say that the date is June thirteenth. Ah, yes, I

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Speaker 2: was right to June thirteenth, twenty twenty three. So this

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Speaker 2: could change by the time it comes out. But we

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Speaker 2: recently had an update episode about things going on in

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Speaker 2: the queer community, and a lot of it was not

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Speaker 2: good news. And then within a couple of days after

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Speaker 2: we recorded that, a lot of it became outdated, as

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Speaker 2: we suspected. At the top of that episode we said,

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Speaker 2: but one of the good things was we were discussing

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Speaker 2: Tennessee's proposed ban on drag performances, even though they never

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Speaker 2: called it that, but that's essentially what was being targeted.

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Speaker 2: But as of June third, twenty twenty three, quote, a

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Speaker 2: federal judge in Tennessee has ruled that a state law

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Speaker 2: limiting public drag show performances represented an quote, unconstitutional restriction

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Speaker 2: of the freedom of speech. As a matter of text alone,

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Speaker 2: the Adult Entertainment Act is a content and viewpoint based

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Speaker 2: restriction of speech. So yay, And that was like we

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Speaker 2: said in there, that was the Trump appointed judge. Right,

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Speaker 2: It's still disheartening because it still doesn't feel safe, but

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Speaker 2: it is. That's a good thing. That's a positive thing

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Speaker 2: that we can celebrate. And after we did that episode,

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Speaker 2: I got to thinking, like, could I get in trouble

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Speaker 2: for cosplay? I mean, anyway at this point, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think I could.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So it is it's like such a huge it spans

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Speaker 2: so much more, and it's something that we really need

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Speaker 2: to keep our eye on and keep fighting against. But

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Speaker 2: we'll take this this positive and keep going that. We

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Speaker 2: wanted to bring back an episode that Kristen and Caroline

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Speaker 2: did on the history of drag queens. This is a

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Speaker 2: bit of an older one, so I think some of

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Speaker 2: the conversation has evolved, but still the history is really interesting,

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Speaker 2: so please enjoy.

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Speaker 4: Hello and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we are talking

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Speaker 3: about drag queens and drag.

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Speaker 1: Yes where it came from.

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Speaker 5: We're going to talk about some famous queens from from

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Speaker 5: way back in the day and some more.

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Speaker 1: Modern people that you've heard of, like RuPaul.

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Speaker 3: And I think that we should go ahead and say

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Speaker 3: that we don't talk about drag kings quite so much.

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Speaker 3: But we're really focusing in this episode on drag.

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Speaker 1: Queens, and drag kings could be a whole episode unto themselves.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, but men dressing in women's clothing in a

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Speaker 3: theatrical setting has been going on for quite some time.

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Speaker 3: Female impersonation, as it's often refreed or two, goes back

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Speaker 3: to ancient Roman literature. You have it in classical Chinese

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Speaker 3: theater Elizabeth Elizabethan theater, since women were generally banned from

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Speaker 3: performing on the stage, so the guys had to perform

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Speaker 3: all of the.

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Speaker 5: Parts, right, And we've seen everybody's seen Shakespeare in Love,

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Speaker 5: which shows not.

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Speaker 4: Everybody, not me, Chris hasn't seen anything.

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Speaker 1: Really.

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Speaker 4: I tried to reference this morning.

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Speaker 1: I tried to reference Karati Kid and it failed.

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Speaker 5: But now, in what's I call it Shakespeare in Love

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Speaker 5: they show men on stage as women. But then of

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Speaker 5: course they also show Gwyneth Paltrow as a man, so

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Speaker 5: it's a really good example of everything anyway.

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Speaker 4: Moving on, So if we look at.

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Speaker 3: The etymology of drag Queen, according to the Online Etymology Dictionary,

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Speaker 3: it originated or at least drag originated in eighteen seventy

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Speaker 3: theater slang, which I'd like.

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Speaker 4: To hear a lot of Sydney theaters lang.

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Speaker 3: Women's clothing worn by a men a man coming from

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Speaker 3: the idea of the skirts dragging across the stage. Interesting,

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Speaker 3: which doesn't make sense because you would maybe think that, uh,

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Speaker 3: you know, men are typically taller than women, So wouldn't

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Speaker 3: that imply that a woman's dress would be shorter on

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Speaker 3: a man than that you'd have less drag? So shouldn't

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Speaker 3: they be drag less queens?

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Speaker 1: Dragless queens?

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Speaker 5: Well, that's just a mouthful, but no, I mean, I'm

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Speaker 5: assuming they made the skirts longer for gentlemen, Yes, long

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Speaker 5: gentlemen's skirts.

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Speaker 3: And then queen, which couldn't be considered more of a

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Speaker 3: derogatory term to describe a gay man, which has been

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Speaker 3: around since the nineteenth century and obviously since then, uh,

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Speaker 3: in terms of drag queens, the term queen has kind

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Speaker 3: of been what's the word reclaimed in a more more

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Speaker 3: positive sense to to embrace it, right, and then putting

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Speaker 3: both drag and queen together. It comes into the universal

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Speaker 3: vernacular by the nineteen fifties, which which is pretty early.

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Speaker 5: Actually, Yeah, drag queens really really flourished. They kind of

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Speaker 5: got their start, yeah, for what we know them now

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Speaker 5: to be, in the fifties and sixties, and they really

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Speaker 5: flourished in the eighties and nineties, which is also the

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Speaker 5: time I mean, if you think about it, that the

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Speaker 5: gay culture really started to flourish right.

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Speaker 3: As well, because we have to mention that in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen fifties and sixties in particular, drag was definitely going on,

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Speaker 3: but it was far more underground and even criminalized. For instance,

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Speaker 3: with the nineteen sixty nine Stonewall riots in San Francisco,

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Speaker 3: people say that the riots were partially inspired by drag queens,

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Speaker 3: some of whom were arrested when the police raided the

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Speaker 3: Stonewall in and then the protests and response to the

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Speaker 3: Stonewall police raid was partially led also by drag queens.

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Speaker 5: Right now, they're just trying to bring attention to the

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Speaker 5: total lack of civil rights respect, you know, that sort

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Speaker 5: of thing. One individual from the San Francisco.

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Speaker 1: Area is Jose Julio Saria.

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Speaker 5: Aka Impress First Jose, a World War Two veteran. He

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Speaker 5: worked at the Black Cat in San Francisco, which had

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Speaker 5: an international reputation as a meeting place for gays and

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Speaker 5: as a result, police tried to close it down in

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Speaker 5: nineteen forty nine just because of that.

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Speaker 1: Jose was known for his arias.

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Speaker 5: He often sang opera at the at the bar, and

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Speaker 5: you kind of used it, actually used the lyrics to

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Speaker 5: warn people of potential police entrapment schemes through his songs.

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Speaker 4: And this is something I did not know about.

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Speaker 3: Jose Julio Saria in nineteen sixty one filed as the

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Speaker 3: first openly gay candidate in the world to run for

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Speaker 3: public office, and he sought the position of San Francisco

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Speaker 3: City Supervisor, which would be the same political office that

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Speaker 3: Harvey Milt would win sixteen years later. Yeah, he did

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Speaker 3: not Sorry, obviously didn't win that time around, but he

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Speaker 3: came in ninth out of thirty two, which for the

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Speaker 3: gay community at.

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Speaker 4: The time thought was it was huge. Yeah, it was

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Speaker 4: very significant.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, some more developments happened in San Francisco around this time,

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Speaker 5: a lot more. There's a lot more of a crackdown

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Speaker 5: by authorities on gay bars, and after numerous San Francisco

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Speaker 5: bars were closed, the Tavern Guild of San Francisco was

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Speaker 5: formed and they put on the city's first large public

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Speaker 5: drag ball called the box Arts Ball. And it was

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Speaker 5: during the third one of these balls that Jose was

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Speaker 5: named Queen of the Ball, and.

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Speaker 1: He ended up that wasn't enough, you know, that was

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Speaker 1: not enough.

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Speaker 5: He ended up naming himself Impress of San Francisco. And

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Speaker 5: this sort of gave rise to this whole system of

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Speaker 5: LGBT rights groups called the international court system. They developed

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Speaker 5: the by laws of the Imperial Court of San Francisco.

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Speaker 5: But these courts, these groups have just spread all over

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Speaker 5: the country, all over Canada, Mexico, the US, and there

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Speaker 5: are more than sixty five chapters, and they spend a

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Speaker 5: lot of their time raising money for charity.

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Speaker 3: But that imperial system is something that is common within

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Speaker 3: the whole drag hierarchy, because drag does take on a

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Speaker 3: lot of different forms from female impersonation, which is separate

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Speaker 3: from just straight you know, the typical drag that we

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Speaker 3: might think of it as a little more over the top,

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Speaker 3: whereas female impersonation is something like, you know, someone who

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Speaker 3: wants to look like Britney Spears and kind of own

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Speaker 3: that personality.

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Speaker 4: But a lot of times.

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Speaker 3: With the events, it is within that kind of kind

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Speaker 3: of court system, right, which I think is kind of

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Speaker 3: interesting and going back a little bit in drag history,

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Speaker 3: we have Alan haynesians who died at the age of

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Speaker 3: ninety in two thousand and eight, and he I believe

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Speaker 3: was a British performer who teamed up with Terry Gardner,

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Speaker 3: who had been a drag queen in the years leading

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Speaker 3: up to World War Two, at which point he went

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Speaker 3: into the Navy, and then he rose to fame in

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Speaker 3: the early fifties when he partnered with Danny LaRue and

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Speaker 3: what they did was something called pantomime, which was basically

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Speaker 3: the British form of early form of theatrical cross dressing

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Speaker 3: and drag.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, they actually had fourteen number one pantomime performances, so

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Speaker 5: they're pretty popular. Alan Haynes went on to open his

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Speaker 5: own club in London's Soho neighborhood after he and LaRue

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Speaker 5: went their separate ways. And no list of famous drag

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Speaker 5: queens would be complete without Dorian Corey, who actually died

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Speaker 5: in nineteen ninety three. Dorian Corey was featured very heavily

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Speaker 5: and Paris Is Burning a really interesting documentary about drag

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Speaker 5: queens in New York.

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Speaker 1: Who created voguing and drag balls.

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Speaker 5: I actually watched a video of Dorian performing the voguing dance.

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Speaker 4: The voguing is amazing.

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Speaker 3: And although I have not seen Shakespeare in Love like

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Speaker 3: I don't hate, hold your horses, because I have seen

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Speaker 3: paris Is Burn and I do highly recommend it. It

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Speaker 3: focuses a lot on the African American drag community in

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Speaker 3: the I believe it takes place in the early eighties,

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Speaker 3: and all of the different categories that they have in

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Speaker 3: there in their pageants and competitions are just amazing, and

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Speaker 3: the voguing on top of that even more incredible.

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Speaker 4: So definitely check that out. And during Corey toured the US.

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Speaker 3: In the nineteen sixties, obviously before Paris's Burning came out

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Speaker 3: as part of a cabaret drag act and an odd

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Speaker 3: post mortem note here after during Corey died, friends found

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Speaker 3: the mummified body of a man in a trunk in

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Speaker 3: her closet.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, they went in to look for Halloween costumes actually,

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Speaker 5: and they're just going through. They didn't find anything they

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Speaker 5: really wanted to use, but they found this dusty, old

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Speaker 5: drunk with the body inside that had been wrapped in

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Speaker 5: fake leather that had accidentally mummified.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, do.

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Speaker 4: We know the backstory behind it like that?

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Speaker 5: Well, the person It took a while, but the person

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Speaker 5: was finally identifyed there was a bullet wound at the

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Speaker 5: back of his head, huh. And the person was finally

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Speaker 5: identified as this guy who had been known as a

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Speaker 5: criminal like a rapist and a thief and all that stuff.

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Speaker 5: But there was nothing about you know, if doing Corey

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Speaker 5: really killed this person or how this person and ended

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Speaker 5: up in the closet mummified one one person one a

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Speaker 5: queens of Dori and Corey actually said that there was

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Speaker 5: a note.

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Speaker 1: There was some note.

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Speaker 5: That indicated that he killed this person in defense or something.

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Speaker 4: But Betty, it's all very it's all very sketchy.

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Speaker 3: Well, if anyone, if anyone has any insight into the

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Speaker 3: Dorian Corey mummy.

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Speaker 1: Body in the closet, let us know.

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Speaker 3: But moving along, we got to talk about one of

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Speaker 3: the most famous drag queens in Western pop culture.

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Speaker 4: That would be Divine mm hmm, born Harris Glenn Millstead.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, she of the very arched eyebrow. Oh yeah, they're

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Speaker 5: actually almost kind.

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Speaker 1: Of scary looking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: She was a character actor and the singer who first

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Speaker 5: became famous through appearances in John Waters Films, and what

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Speaker 5: I thought was interesting, I didn't realize that Divine actually

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Speaker 5: grew up just down the streets. I don't know, I imagine,

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Speaker 5: can you imagine those two kids playing together?

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Speaker 4: Like, what were they like?

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Speaker 1: It's children, amazing, amazing.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, you might know if you're not sure who

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Speaker 5: we're talking about, you might know Divine as one of

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Speaker 5: the lead characters in Hairspray. She's also in Pink Flamengo's

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Speaker 5: Female Trouble and Polyester.

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Speaker 4: And I think that Divine ended up dying prematurely from

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Speaker 4: some kind of heart condition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was rushed hard.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was right after Hairspray came out, which

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Speaker 3: really sent her star through the roof exactly.

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Speaker 4: So that's kind of tragic.

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Speaker 3: And then we also have Lady Bunny, who is another

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Speaker 3: drag queen that you probably that you would probably recognize.

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Speaker 3: She is the co founder co producer in MC of Wigstock,

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Speaker 3: which is an annual all day outdoor variety show. And

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Speaker 3: she also pops up in just like random tabloid magazine

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Speaker 3: doing fashion critiques, which is kind of awesome.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, she was on RuPaul's Drag you if you guys

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Speaker 5: remember that, how could you forget? And speaking of RuPaul's

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Speaker 5: Drag You, there's RuPaul Rue Paul RuPaul Charles born in

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Speaker 5: San Diego, moved to Atlanta when he was a teen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a delicate flower moved to Atlanta.

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Speaker 5: I actually went to Northside High School. I don't know

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Speaker 5: if that that doesn't mean anything to anyone outside of Atlanta,

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Speaker 5: but that's pretty cool. It's like more of a kind

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Speaker 5: of like a performing arts high school.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and Rue really got his start in in Atlanta,

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Speaker 3: which makes me proud to say we were recording live

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Speaker 3: from Atlanta Race.

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Speaker 1: Well, not live, No, Well, I'm live to us, yes

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Speaker 1: right now, not to you so much.

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Speaker 3: And now that we are talking about Rue Paul the

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Speaker 3: song the nineteen ninety three hit Supermodel.

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Speaker 4: You better work. It's gonna be in my head for

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Speaker 4: the rest of the day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I hope and everyone else has said too,

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Speaker 3: because it is fantastic. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: RuPaul's been pretty busy with all all her TV shows,

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Speaker 5: Drag You and what's the other one, Drag Race.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the other one.

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Speaker 3: And I do highly recommend if you have the time

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Speaker 3: to read RuPaul's biography on I Think It's RuPaul dot

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Speaker 3: Com on the website. It's very detailed, it's hysterically interesting. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: his personality totally comes through.

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Speaker 4: I love it.

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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed reading. And the pictures are fantastic too.

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Speaker 5: His prom picture from nineteen eighty three from Northside High School.

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Speaker 4: Fantastic, pretty awesome, it is.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty awesome.

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Speaker 3: And speaking of Rue Paul, we want to mention Manila Luzon,

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Speaker 3: who won second place on the third season of RuPaul's

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Speaker 3: Drag Race.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 5: Eric Zang and the blog Racheal is Isious talks about Manila,

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Speaker 5: saying that he actually he talks about.

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Speaker 1: How she portrays this Pan Asian culture. She's sort of

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Speaker 1: basically his whole blog is about. Is her personality, the

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Speaker 1: way she portrays Asians?

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Speaker 5: Is it offensive? Is it okay to do it just

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Speaker 5: because she's a she's from the Philippines, or is it

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Speaker 5: still offensive anyway? And he Eric saying basically says that

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Speaker 5: it's funny.

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Speaker 1: She knows what she's doing. You know, she's not trying

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Speaker 1: to insult anyone. But he also says that drag is

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Speaker 1: inherently about the performance of gender and destroying the idea

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Speaker 1: of masculinity.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a lot about a lot about caricature.

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Speaker 3: And when we started looking into scholarly analysis of drag

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Speaker 3: culture and drag culture within the context of gender and sexuality,

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Speaker 3: we quickly found out that the perception is not quite

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Speaker 3: so so clear cut, especially within the gay community.

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Speaker 5: At least back back in the day, right there was

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Speaker 5: a question of whether camp is an embarrassment to the

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Speaker 5: gay community and how you know, there are some parts

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Speaker 5: of the community that really embrace it and think it's great,

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Speaker 5: and there are other parts who consider an embarrassment. Especially

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Speaker 5: like Kristin just said, back back in the day, the

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Speaker 5: Matachine Society, for instance, disapproved of it, didn't think it

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Speaker 5: was helpful to the cause and to acceptance in general.

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Speaker 5: So this book, inside Out Lesbian Theories and Gay Theories,

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Speaker 5: has a chapter on the politics of gay drag, and

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Speaker 5: it talks about how the drag queen may be both

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Speaker 5: a misogynist and be the victim of misogyny, just based

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Speaker 5: on whatever perspective you are using. You know, we talked

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Speaker 5: about how drag isn't always accepted in the in the

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Speaker 5: gay community, and a lot of they talk about in

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Speaker 5: this book a lot of the masculine gay men looking

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Speaker 5: at drag queens as you know, just not part of

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Speaker 5: the same culture that they that they are part of.

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Speaker 5: And then they are feminists like Marilyn Fry who say

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Speaker 5: that drag is a casual and cynical mockery of women.

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Speaker 5: A lot of writers agree with her and say that

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Speaker 5: drag is a parody and a hostile one.

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Speaker 3: But at the same time, though, I don't see, I

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Speaker 3: don't necessarily see what the problem is with with parrotying, uh,

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Speaker 3: the kind of femininity that they have on stage.

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Speaker 4: That is very over the top.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot of it's kind of, in the words

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Speaker 3: of Andrew Ross, defetishizing all of the makeup and the

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Speaker 3: glitz and the glamour and the heels and all in

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Speaker 3: the just the general bedazzlement that is maybe imposed on women,

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Speaker 3: and uh, sort of making a mockery of of sort

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Speaker 3: of the the beauty, the beauty complex.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think that there's I mean, maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm uh not well informed.

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Speaker 5: I don't think I mean, I don't think there's a

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Speaker 5: general perception of drag as being mean spirited, right.

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Speaker 4: You know, exactly generally it's the exact opposite.

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Speaker 3: People. A lot of times if you see drag queens,

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Speaker 3: it's in a parade, it's at a show, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's raising money, raising awareness things.

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Speaker 1: Like that, Yeah, or it's just plain entertainment, you know, exactly.

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Speaker 3: And so that's why, maybe because our exposure to drag

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Speaker 3: has only been in more of the entertainment realm, and

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Speaker 3: especially now that drag is in more of pop culture

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Speaker 3: in general purely for entertainment, it was surprising to read

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Speaker 3: this chapter on politics of gay drag.

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Speaker 4: And this was also in.

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Speaker 3: Nineteen ninety one, Yeah, Britt, in nineteen ninety one by

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Speaker 3: Carolne Taylor. Maybe before well, obviously before drag had come

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Speaker 3: into as much of the mainstream as it is right now, right,

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Speaker 3: drag was super duper in the mainstream and still is.

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Speaker 1: In Sydney, Australia.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this was one hotspot I did not know about.

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Speaker 1: I didn't either.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I guess I should have known, because I've

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Speaker 5: seen Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, which I love. But yeah,

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Speaker 5: Sidney is sort of a center for drag queen culture

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Speaker 5: and it really flourished in.

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Speaker 1: The eighties and nineties.

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Speaker 5: There was an article in an Australian publication that was

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Speaker 5: talking to Mitsi Macintosh, who made a living for twenty years,

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Speaker 5: it's a full time drag queen, and Mitzi was basically

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Speaker 5: saying that part of the reason why drag was so

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Speaker 5: big back in the day was that this community of

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Speaker 5: people were coming together for support amid the aid's outbreak.

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Speaker 5: You know, they were losing friends, losing family, and so

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Speaker 5: they really came together to support each other. And she's

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Speaker 5: saying that basically drag is on the decline in Sydney,

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Speaker 5: even though it's still like huge, because maybe the younger

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Speaker 5: generation is not as concerned with AIDS. So she says,

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Speaker 5: there doesn't seem to be that sense of socializing and

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Speaker 5: community that there used to be.

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Speaker 3: But nevertheless, I do think we have to since we're

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Speaker 3: talking about Sidney, we do have to mention that during

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Speaker 3: the closing ceremonies of the two thousand Summer Olympics, drag

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Speaker 3: Queen's dress in original costumes from Priscilla Queen in the

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Speaker 3: Desert your movie Carolina.

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Speaker 4: They reenact it scenes from the movie, which was the

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Speaker 4: first open involvement of gays in an Olympic event.

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Speaker 1: And there were I mean, there were protests.

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Speaker 5: There were you know, people from the religious community who

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Speaker 5: came out and said that this doesn't represent Sydney. You know,

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Speaker 5: we're about so much more than just drag queens. And

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Speaker 5: I mean that's I feel like that's an overreaction because

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Speaker 5: it's not like the entire closing ceremonies was just a

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Speaker 5: drag show. I mean, come on, but I think, you know,

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Speaker 5: I think it's great that they incorporated bits of that

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Speaker 5: movie into the closing ceremonies. I mean, if it's part

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Speaker 5: of the city's culture, why not. And it's a good movie,

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Speaker 5: so whatever.

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Speaker 4: And I think also that.

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Speaker 3: It's I think that it's a positive thing that that

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Speaker 3: drag has come into more of the mainstream and that

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Speaker 3: it's seen as a more acceptable thing to do.

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Speaker 4: I think that it is perfectly acceptable to engage in

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Speaker 4: that kind of gender play.

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Speaker 3: And we also have to mention, for instance, you know,

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Speaker 3: like it's not all drag queens just trying to dress

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Speaker 3: up and look exactly like women's also speaking, which we

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Speaker 3: have not really mentioned drag kings at all. And then

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Speaker 3: there's also skag drag, which is slaying for men who

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Speaker 3: will put on women's clothes but leave on beards and

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Speaker 3: things like that, kind of playing with like visibly having

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Speaker 3: the physical markers of being a man, but just dressed

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Speaker 3: in women's apparel.

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Speaker 5: So kind of like Eddie Izard, Yeah, who calls himself

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Speaker 5: the executive transvestite.

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Speaker 4: So I think, I don't know, I don't know that

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Speaker 4: I agree necessarily with that.

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Speaker 3: I can understand that critique of misogyny, but I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, considering that that was nineteen ninety one and

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Speaker 3: it's now twenty eleven, I would hope at least that

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Speaker 3: we've moved beyond that.

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Speaker 5: Right And we were talking about, you know, the difference

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Speaker 5: between drag that's you know, it's doing it as a parody,

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Speaker 5: and then people who dress just as women, who aren't

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Speaker 5: necessarily trying to be like the big drag queen on.

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Speaker 4: Stage more as impersonation.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 5: Kate Bornstein, the author of Gender Outlaw on Men, Women

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Speaker 5: and the Rest of Us, reade an article for out

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Speaker 5: magazine called the Trouble with Tranny, and she talks about

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Speaker 5: Doris Fish, who San Francisco's pre eminent drag queen.

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Speaker 4: Of the eighties.

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Speaker 1: And Doris took Kate under her wing.

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Speaker 5: And sort of made it clear to her that in

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Speaker 5: the nineteen sixties and seventies Australia, most of the male

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Speaker 5: to female gender outlaws quote unquote got their start as

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Speaker 5: drag queens. And this is different from her experience in

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Speaker 5: the eighties when male to female transsexuals just wanted to

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Speaker 5: live their lives as close to being a real woman

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Speaker 5: quote unquote as possible and consider drag queens beneath them.

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Speaker 5: And so Doris is taking Kate under her wing. And

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Speaker 5: it's interesting to see the different the different schools of

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Speaker 5: thought on drag because the older school, if you wanted

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Speaker 5: to act, whether you wanted to just perform as a

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Speaker 5: woman or actually become a woman, you sort of had

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Speaker 5: to come up through the ranks, yeah, of drag queens,

439
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Speaker 5: whereas in the eighties it started to become more acceptable

440
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Speaker 5: maybe to just like, no, I just I mean, I

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Speaker 5: just want to be a woman, right, you know, and

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Speaker 5: you didn't have to necessarily perform on stage as a

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Speaker 5: drag queen.

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Speaker 3: Well, and think about too, the risks, the legal risks

445
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 3: of performing in drag or dressing in women's clothing in

446
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 3: the in the fifties and sixties, like we mentioned earlier,

447
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 3: perhaps drag was one of the only ways to be

448
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 3: able to kind of act that out in public, even

449
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 3: though again you were still risking a lot, whereas by

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00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 3: the time you get to the eighties, like you said,

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00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 3: it was more of something that.

452
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 4: You could just that you could do right and slides

453
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 4: still have to.

454
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 3: Slide someone under the social radar, but not have to

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00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 3: worry about getting taken off in a paddy wagon.

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00:24:51,359 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 4: Right, So where does that leave us today, Carolyn?

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00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: Well, today we have a lot of women who seem

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00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: like drag queens.

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Speaker 5: A lot of these articles talk about like Katy Perry

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00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 5: and Lady Gaga, who are basically co opting drag.

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00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: They're women who are imitating women imitating women.

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00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, if that, if you followed, if you followed that,

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00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 5: But yeah, you know that Mariah Carey and Beyonce both

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00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 5: have sort of alter egos, Sasha Fears and Mimi.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's kind of interesting.

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00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 3: I hadn't even I really hadn't thought about that as

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00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 3: we were researching.

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00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 4: It's a good point. I wonder why, then, why there

469
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 4: is some kind of need to co opt.

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00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 3: Is it just because we need to push even more

471
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 3: gender boundaries in pop culture?

472
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 4: I don't know.

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00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: I don't know.

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00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 3: Question for the listeners there it is, let us know

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00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: what you think about about drag queens. Anyone out there

476
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 3: also who performs in drag either King, Queen, Skag whatever.

477
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, curious to know your insight on this.

478
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 3: My stuff at houstuffworks dot com is our email address,

479
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 3: and I've got an email here from Emerson and this

480
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: is in response to our episode on condoms, and he writes,

481
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 3: I happen to run a gay porn company and needless

482
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 3: to say, we go through a lot of condoms. Additionally,

483
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 3: when we're stopping to CVS, the condoms are usually the

484
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 3: least embarrassing thing we're buying.

485
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 4: As for the people in line, the looks are.

486
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 3: Just as much out of jealousy as they are out.

487
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: Of negative judgment.

488
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 3: I mean, they're buying snickers and Seltzer and I'm buying condoms,

489
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 3: so I'm obviously going to be the one.

490
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 4: Having a crazy fun night, at least from their perspective.

491
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: Anyway, My point is that no one should be embarrassed

492
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 3: to buy condoms. First off, it means you're looking after

493
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: your health, which is something to be proud of.

494
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 4: Additionally, you're probably.

495
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 3: Buying them in the interest of having a good time,

496
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: which is also something to be proud of. And Lastly,

497
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 3: weirdos like me or they're half an hour ago, buying

498
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 3: all sorts of nonsense, decentizing the entire store. So that's

499
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 3: what Emerson had to say about buying condoms.

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00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 4: This is a good Yeah.

501
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: Next time you're embarrassed, just imagine, just think about Emerson

502
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 3: and what.

503
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 4: He took up to the cash register.

504
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 5: This is an email from Angela about our Influential Lesbians podcast.

505
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 5: You brought up Susie Orman and how she includes spirituality

506
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 5: in her financial advice. I'm not a super religious person,

507
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 5: but I do enjoy when she does this. I think

508
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 5: it makes her advice more personable. It can be hard

509
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 5: to wrap our minds around numbers and cold logic.

510
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 4: I agree with Angela.

511
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 5: By adding the effects of money on our emotions and

512
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 5: her spirituality, her advice becomes more relatable.

513
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: Good point, appreciate it, I agree.

514
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 3: Excellent points from all of you who write in to

515
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 3: Mom's Stuff at houstuffworks dot com. And as long as

516
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 3: you can check us out over on Facebook. Let us

517
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 3: know your favorite drag queen's their favorite drag movies.

518
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 4: Watch Paris Is Burning and let me know what you

519
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 4: think on Facebook.

520
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: Do some voguing?

521
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, in vogue, Oh my god, can we all learn

522
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 4: how to vogue? And start doing it.

523
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: Vogue and Memory of Dorian Corey and again.

524
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you have any insight into the Dorian

525
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: Corey mummy, please Facebook, Twitter, at Mom Stuff Podcast.

526
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 4: Let us know immediately, And as always, you can check

527
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 3: Out the blog during the week Stuff Mom Never Told

528
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 3: You at HowStuffWorks dot com