1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Hey, listeners, we are soon to be appearing at New 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: York Comic Con as part of New York Comic Con 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: presents their evening programming. We are going to do an 4 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: episode about the creation of what is usually credited as 5 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: the first comic book, and we'll be talking about the 6 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: man who did it and how that came to be 7 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: and if you want to get in on that, we 8 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: would love to see you for our live show. It 9 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: is taking place on October six, from nine thirty to 10 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: eleven at the Hudson Mercantile. Again that runs during New 11 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: York Comic Con, and for more information on it, you 12 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: can visit our website Missed in History dot com. You 13 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: will click on the link this is live shows and 14 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: you can get all the info and a link to 15 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: order your tickets. We hope to see you there. Welcome 16 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how Stuff 17 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I 18 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: am Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly fry. So. It's 19 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: been a while since we've had a Supreme Court case 20 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: on the show as a guest. As a guest, right uh, 21 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: and that's become a theme sort of on on at 22 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: least in terms of yours and my time on the 23 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: show HALLI we've had several Supreme Court episodes, and I 24 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: think the last one that we had was one of 25 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: the goofier ones because we talked about Butter versus Margarine. 26 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: This one is not a goofier one. Today we are 27 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: talking about Hernandez versus Texas, which got a brief mention 28 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: in our past episode on Marcario Garcia, and that was 29 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: the first Mexican immigrant to the United States to earn 30 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: the Medal of Honor. And in addition to tying directly 31 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: to civil rights for Mexican Americans, Hernande's versus Texas was 32 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: also the first case to be argued before the Supreme 33 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: Court by Mexican American attorneys, and it set off a 34 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: whole new precedent and how the Fourteenth Amendment to the 35 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: Constitution was interpreted in terms of race and ethnicity. A 36 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: lot of the stuff that we're talking about today generally 37 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: applied more broadly to pretty much everybody of Hispanic or 38 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: Latino descent, but specifically the people that we were talking about, 39 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: our our Mexican Americans. So the other thing is this 40 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: was decided it right before Brown versus Board, like a 41 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: week or two before the decision came down in Brown 42 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: versus Board. So in a lot of ways it was 43 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: completely overshadowed by that way more famous decision, although it 44 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: was really important in its own way. And Hernandez versus 45 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: Texas began with a murder, and the facts of that 46 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 1: murder were really not in dispute. On August four, Pedro Hernandez, 47 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: who went by Pete, got into an argument with Gitano Espinoza, 48 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: who was known as Joe, at Chinko Sanchez's tavern in Edna, Texas. 49 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: Edna is southwest of Houston and southeast of San Antonio, 50 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: and sits roughly between those two cities. It's not clear 51 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: exactly what started to this argument, but according to witnesses, 52 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: at some point, Espinoza started making fun of Hernandez because 53 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: he had a club foot, and Hernanda has left the bar. 54 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: He walked home, got a rifle, came back and shot 55 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: Espinosa in the chest in front of witnesses. Espinoza died 56 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: not long after reaching the hospital in less than twenty 57 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: four hours after the crime. Hernandez was indicted for murder. 58 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: Four days later, he was denied bail Hernande's mother went 59 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,119 Speaker 1: to Gustavo Garcia, known as GUS, for help, and Garcia 60 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: was a prominent civil rights lawyer in San Antonio. He 61 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: served as a legal advisor to the League of United 62 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: Latin American Citizens or LULAC, which was the first civil 63 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: rights organization for Mexican Americans in the United States, and 64 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: he served in that same capacity for the American GI Forum, 65 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: which was formed in the wake of World War Two 66 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: to help Mexican American veterans get access to the benefits 67 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: they were entitled to under the g I Bill of Rights. 68 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: I kind of want to do an episode at some 69 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: point about the g I Bill, because the language in 70 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: the bill didn't have anything related to race or ethnicity 71 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: in it, but the way it was actually implement it, 72 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: it was a lot easier for white returning veterans to 73 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: get access to the benefits that were involved and pretty 74 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: much anyone else. So it has a really complicated history 75 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: in terms of how and who it allowed to get 76 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: access to things like education and buying new homes and 77 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: things like that. So by the time he agreed to 78 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: represent Pete Hernandez, Garcia had been involved with some of 79 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: the biggest civil rights cases for Mexicans and Mexican Americans 80 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: in Texas. He had worked as a legal advocate for 81 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: migrant workers in the Briscero program, which we've talked about 82 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: on the show before. He had also been part of 83 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: the team and del got O versus bell Strap Independent 84 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: School District. They'll got O versus bell Strap followed the 85 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: California case of Mendez versus Westminster, which we've also talked 86 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: about on the show, and it made segregation of Mexican 87 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: American school children illegal in the state of Texas, with 88 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: the exception of like first graders who genuinely needed some 89 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: more English language instruction before they joined classes that were 90 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: being in English. Garcia had also represented the family of 91 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: Felix Longoria, who was killed in action in World War Two. 92 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,799 Speaker 1: When Longoria's body was returned home to Texas, the only 93 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: funeral home in his hometown of Three Rivers refused to 94 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: allow its chapel to be used for the service because, 95 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: in the director's words quote, the whites would not like it. 96 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: After them, Senator Lyndon B. Johnson got involved. Longoria was 97 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: buried at Arlington National Cemetery. Joining Garcia and the defense 98 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: team was Carlos Kanena, whose prior civil rights work included 99 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: challenging restrictive covenants that were keeping Mexican Americans from being 100 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: able to buy land in San Antonio. Garcia is known 101 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: as an incredibly eloquent and charismatic speaker, and Kanana had 102 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,559 Speaker 1: a head for numbers and statistics, so when they worked 103 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: together as a legal team, typically Garcia would be the 104 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: one who argued the case in court and Kandana meticulously 105 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: assembled all the research and the information that was needed 106 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: to make that argument in court. Also on a team 107 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: where John Jay Herrera known as Johnny, and James DeAnda, 108 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: who practiced together in Houston, and Herrera and Garcia already 109 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: knew one another and they had actually worked together on 110 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: Delgado Versus Blastrop. So the reason this seemingly straightforward small 111 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: town murder trial required a team of four attorneys, including 112 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: some of the most well known civil rights lawyers working 113 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: in Texas at the time, is that it was not 114 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: just a simple criminal matter. While working out another case 115 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: together in Fort Bend County, Johnny Herrera had idly wondered 116 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: to James Dandah why he had never seen a Mexican 117 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: person on a jury there and then when they looked 118 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: into it further, they realized that there had been no 119 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: one of Mexican descent on a Fort Bend County jury 120 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: in more than thirty five years. The same pattern was 121 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: true in Jackson County, where Hernandez was going to be tried. 122 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: Herrera was not the first person to make this observation. 123 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: All Anglo juries had come up at least seven times 124 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: in Texas court since nine There hadn't been a Mexican 125 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: person on a jury, or, to be more specific, anyone 126 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: who had a recognizable Mexican or Latin American surname in 127 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: twenty five years in at least seventy Texas counties. Every 128 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: attempt to address that disparity had been met with the 129 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: same legal response from the state. Indianda's words, quote, well, 130 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: Mexicans are Caucasians, and there were Caucasians on the jury, 131 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: so what are you fussing about? Arera's Indanda's client and 132 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: Acito Sanchez had been found guilty of murder. Arera Indianda 133 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: had appealed the conviction on the grounds that Sanchez had 134 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: been discriminated against by the existence of this all white jury, 135 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,679 Speaker 1: but the Texas Court of Appeals upheld the conviction, making 136 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: that same argument as a Mexican, Sanchez was white and 137 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: the jury was white, so there was no discrimination. And 138 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: at that point the team was out of funds. Sanchez 139 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: was really reluctant to pursue the case any further. As well, 140 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: he was afraid that he would get a harsher sentence 141 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: if his conviction was overturned and he had to be retry. 142 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: This Mexicans are white argument stretched back to the Treaty 143 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: of Guadalupe hid Allgo, which ended the Mexican American War 144 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: in eighteen forty eight, and the war ended with Mexico 145 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: seating a huge amount of territory, much of it inhabited 146 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: by both Mexicans and indigenous people, to the United States. 147 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: In Article eight, the treaty gave Mexicans living in the 148 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: United States territory a choice to quote the treaty quote, 149 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: those who shall prefer to remain in the said territories 150 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: may either retain the title and rights of Mexican citizens 151 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: or acquire those of citizens of the United States. But 152 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: they shall be under the obligation to make their election 153 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: within one year from the date of the exchange of 154 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: ratifications of this Treaty and those who shall remain in 155 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: the said territories after the expiration of that year, without 156 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: having declared their intention to retain the character of Mexicans, 157 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: shall be considered to have elected to become citizens of 158 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: the United States. The treaty went on to recognize the 159 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: proper the rights of Mexicans and to state that those 160 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: who became American would be quote admitted at the proper 161 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: time to the enjoyment of all the rights of citizens 162 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: of the United States, according to the principles of the Constitution, 163 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: and in the meantime shall be maintained and protected in 164 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: the free enjoyment of their liberty and property, and secured 165 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: in the free exercise of their religion without restriction. Of course, 166 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: this is just one aspect of this whole treaty, and 167 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: it's also important to note that Mexico had given its 168 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: indigenous population the rights of citizenship, but those rights were 169 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: essentially ignored once the territory they had been living in 170 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: became part of the United States. So even though in theory, 171 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: if you had Mexican citizenship before, you were supposed to 172 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: have American citizenship, now that citizenship was denied. The indigenous 173 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: population that was living in former Mexican territory, and for 174 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: the Mexican citizens of Spanish descent once that year was 175 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: up after the ratification of the Treaty of Guadalupe a Dago, 176 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: unless they had specifically said they were retaining Mexican citizenship, 177 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: they were to be considered American citizens. And all of 178 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: this together meant that from a legal perspective, they were white. 179 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: And we'll get to how the team built a legal 180 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: defense around all of this after we first pause and 181 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 1: have a little bit of a sponsor break. Throughout the 182 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: murder trial of Pete Hernandez, his legal team tried to 183 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: establish that the absence of Mexicans on the jury was discriminatory. 184 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: Their first effort in doing this was on October four, 185 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: ninety one, when Garcia and Kanana tried to quash the 186 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: original indictment because that indictment had been delivered by an 187 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: all Anglo grand jury. As expected, no one was surprised 188 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: by this. The court refused and the trial began as 189 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,599 Speaker 1: planned on October eight, and all Anglo jury was selected. 190 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: And once that was done, the legal team filed a 191 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: motion to quash. In the hearing that followed, they spent 192 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: a lot of time trying to establish that, regardless of 193 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: whether they were legally considered white, Mexicans were treated as 194 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: a class apart. The team noted things like restaurants that 195 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,479 Speaker 1: posted no Mexicans signs and the recently ended school segregation, 196 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: and they asked a number of witnesses things like, would 197 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: you ever say a German Man and a white man, 198 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: how about an Englishman and a white man? How about 199 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: a Mexican and a white man. And even though the 200 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: resulting answers provided solid evidence that Mexican residents of Jackson 201 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: County were treated differently from Anglo residents, the motion was 202 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: ultimately denied. I learned two really fascinating things while reading 203 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: through all of this questioning during the hearing to quash 204 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: the jury, uh. And one of them was that at 205 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: the time, a lot more people used the word Latin 206 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: American rather than Mexican because people, I mean a lot 207 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: of different reasons. The preferred language to talk about stuff 208 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: changes over time, and that's normal, like that's expected. Part 209 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: of it was, uh that people were kind of concerned 210 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: that if you said Mexican, that you might actually mean 211 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: a Mexican national living in Mexico right now, rather than 212 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: a person of Mexican descent living in the United States. Um. 213 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: And the other one was that apparently people still considered 214 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: Bohemian to be a recognizable like ethnic class, and so 215 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: some of the questions were like, would you say, oh, look, 216 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: there's a Bohemian and a white man, And people were like, no, 217 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: of course, not, that's weird. That was like, that's never 218 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: a thing I've even thought of. Uh, but I mean 219 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: to be clear in case it's not obvious. People were like, no, 220 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say a German Man and a white man. 221 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: Those are both white. And people would say, well, would 222 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: you say a Mexican and a white man? Oh? Yeah. 223 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: Like they built that case over a lot of questions, 224 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: but in spite of that, they did not quash the jury. 225 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: After the jury selection and all those pre trial motions, 226 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: the charges against Hernandez were read at one fift pm 227 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: on October eleventh. The jury went to deliberations at four 228 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: thirty in the afternoon, and by eight pm that same 229 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: night they had reached a verdict. Hernandez was convicted and 230 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: sentenced to life in prison. Her Era, Indiana had already 231 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: tried to make a discrimination argument in their appeal of 232 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: Anacito Sanchez's murder conviction, so the team started with that 233 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: brief as the foundation for their appeal of Hernandez's conviction. 234 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: They drew parallels to the systemic exclusion of black jurors, 235 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: which the Supreme Court had already found violated the constitutional 236 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: rights to do process in equal protection, and they also 237 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: drew parallels to how Mexicans were treated quite differently from 238 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: people of other nationalities who really were considered to be white. Cardena, 239 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: who crafted a lot of the brief, also made the 240 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: point that, in his words quote about the only time 241 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: that so called Mexicans, many of them Texans for seven generations, 242 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: are covered with the Caucasian cloak, is when it serves 243 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: the ends of those who would shamelessly deny this large 244 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: segment of the Texas population their fundamental rights. So basically, 245 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: nobody's really calling us white until it suits them to 246 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: be like, well, you're not being discriminated against because you're white. 247 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: You're different until we have to defend ourselves, and then 248 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: you're just like us. Hernandez's case was brought before the 249 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: Texas Court of Criminal Appeals on November twenty one one, 250 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: with the team arguing that the lower court had aired 251 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: in denying the motions to quash both the grand and 252 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: petit juries. The Texas Court of Appeals disagreed and affirmed 253 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: that conviction on June eighteenth, ninetifty two, and the appeals 254 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: Court's decision noted that the Fourteenth Amendments equal protection clause 255 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: applied to two classes only, quote, the white race comprising 256 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: one class and the Negro race comprising the other class. 257 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: The appeals court also repeated part of the decision that 258 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: had had given in the Sanchez case, quote, Mexican people 259 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: are not a separate race, but white people of Spanish descent. 260 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: That went on to specify, quote in contemplation of the 261 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: Fourteenth Amendment, Mexicans are there for members of and within 262 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: the classification of the white race, as distinguished for members 263 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: of the Negro race. The team tried to bring the 264 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: jury selection issue back to the Court of Appeals on 265 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: October two, but the court declined to hear it. So 266 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: from there their next step would be to take this 267 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: case to the United States Supreme Court, and although this 268 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: had always been their goal, they recognized that it was 269 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: an incredibly risky decision to try it. On a personal level, 270 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: it was risky for Pete Hernandez. He had been found 271 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: guilty of murder and sentenced to life in prison, and 272 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: if the Supreme Court overturned his conviction, he would need 273 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: to be retried. Like we said, it was clear that 274 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: he had committed this crime, and if he was retried, 275 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: he could potentially be sentenced to death. Going to the 276 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: Supreme Court carried other risks as well. If the court 277 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: did not find in Hernande's favor, it would probably take 278 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: at least a generation for another similar case to be heard. 279 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: That meant that for a generation, Mexican Americans in many 280 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: Texas counties would continue to face juries composed only of Anglos, 281 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: And since the whole issue was tied to whether Mexicans 282 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: were white, there were plenty of imagined scenarios and consequences 283 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: should the Court decide that no, they were not. This 284 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: risk was compounded by the fact that Peter Nandez's case 285 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: was not particularly likely to elicit the court's sympathy. At 286 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: the same time as Hernandez's and Sanchez's cases were being 287 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: heard in Texas, civil rights cases involving black Americans were 288 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: playing out elsewhere in the United States as well. These 289 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: were often backed by national organizations like the n double 290 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: a CP with experienced civil rights lawyers who were carefully 291 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: selecting cases whose defendants were likely to be sympathetic and 292 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: regarded by white justices as respectable and worthy of compassion. 293 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: Like this has come up in a lot of past episodes, 294 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: like the Mildred and Richard Loving were sympathetic people because 295 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: they were a couple who loved each other and wanted 296 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: to live together in Virginia. And Rosa parks Uh was 297 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: simp athetic because she had a job and was like, 298 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: I had a reputation for being, you know, a kind 299 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 1: person who went to church. All of these things were 300 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: part of deciding whose case would be presented to the 301 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. This was not the case with Pete Hernandez. 302 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: He had murdered someone after a fight in front of witnesses. 303 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: At the same time, a Supreme Court case seemed like 304 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: an opportunity to try to right some of the wrongs 305 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: within the court system, so the team filed their petition 306 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: for a writ of certiorari with the Supreme Court on 307 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: January twenty one, nineteen fifty three. This is the document 308 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: that formally asks the higher court to review the lower 309 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: court's decision and this was a day pass the deadline 310 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: and typewritten when the Supreme Court's rules stated that they 311 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: must be professionally printed. But the Court agreed to hear 312 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: the case anyway, and on October twelfth, nineteen fifties three, 313 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: it was scheduled for the next session. People were really 314 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: worried that the fact that they turned it in a 315 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: day late and typewritten is that have professionally printed, was 316 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: like an indicator of bad things to come. Arguing a 317 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: case before the Supreme Court is expensive. To be allowed 318 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: to do it at all, attorneys have to apply for 319 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: and be granted admission to the Supreme Court Bar. This 320 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: requires sponsorship from people who have already been admitted to 321 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court Bar. So, in addition to the application fee, 322 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: the team, none of whom had ever argued before the 323 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: Supreme Court before, had to find other attorneys who were 324 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: already approved to sponsor them and then pay a fee 325 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: to apply. There are also filing fees for the case itself, 326 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: and the team arguing the case is responsible for paying 327 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: for all there the briefs to be printed, along with 328 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: travel to Washington, d c. And food and lodging while there, 329 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: and especially in the cases of attorneys who have private 330 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: practices the disruption of their business as and income while 331 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: they're gone. Hernand Is his team did not have a 332 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 1: lot of money. They were basically a collection of local 333 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: Texas lawyers whose own practices and incomes and stracy just 334 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: suggested we're going to suffer while they were away. So 335 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: the Robert Marshall Civil Liberties Trust contributed five thousand dollars 336 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: to the cost of the proceedings, and local LULAC chapters 337 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: made donations as well, and the rest of their budget 338 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: was filled in by small donations from other civic organizations 339 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: and even individual people. There are interviews with some of 340 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: the folks that were involved in all of this who 341 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: would talk about people who just really did not have 342 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: any money coming up to them on the street and 343 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: like handing them a dollar and being like, please use 344 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: this to help pay for the case. Because their budget 345 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: was so tight, they eventually decided that not all of 346 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: them would go to Washington. D C, Garcia, Kardenna, and 347 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: Herrera would all go to Washington, while Danda stayed behind 348 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: in Texas, both to try to save money on all 349 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: of their costs and also to try to keep all 350 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,719 Speaker 1: of their law businesses functioning while the rest of them 351 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: were away. Money became one of the sources of tension 352 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: for the t once they actually got to Washington. Garcia 353 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: was somewhat of a showman and had a flamboyant personality, 354 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: and he hired a publicist and reserved a hotel suite 355 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: that the rest of the team thought was beyond their budget. 356 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: It wasn't just about luxury though. At that point, the 357 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: Double A CP and other organizations fighting for equal rights 358 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: for Black Americans were national organizations with better funding and 359 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: much better name recognition. Brown versus Board was national news, 360 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: and Garcia really wanted a similar national structure and recognition 361 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: for Mexican Americans. Leading up to their arguments before the 362 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, Garcia himself also became a source of tension 363 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: as well. He struggled with alcoholism, and the day before 364 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: they were to argue, he vanished from the hotel and 365 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: finally returned very late and heavily intoxicated. The rest of 366 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: the team, while trying to sober him up, started to 367 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,479 Speaker 1: worry that the whole thing was going to fall apart. 368 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: And after we take another quick break, we will talk 369 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: about the Supreme Court argument and what happened afterward. Hernandez 370 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: versus the State of Texas was argued before the United 371 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: States Supreme Court on January eleventh, nineteen fifty four. The 372 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: question before the court was is the equal Protection of 373 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: the law claws of the Fourteenth Amendment violated when a 374 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: state tries a person of a particular race or ancestry 375 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: before a jury in which all persons of that race 376 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: or ancestry have been excluded from serving. The team's strategy 377 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: was twofold. They would establish that Mexican jurors, specifically those 378 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: with Spanish surnames, were being systematically intentionally excluded from juries 379 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: in Jackson County, Texas, including in the trial of Peter Nandez. 380 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: And they would also establish that the exclusion from jury 381 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: service was part of an overall pattern of discrimination against 382 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: Mexican Americans, treating them as a class apart from white citizens. 383 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: Establishing that Mexican amerry kins were excluded from Jerry's was 384 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: easy enough. They had plenty of documentation that almost fifteen 385 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: percent of the county's population had Mexican or Latin American surnames, 386 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: including eleven percent of the man over aged twenty one, 387 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: about six or seven percent of the freeholders and the 388 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: tax roles were of Mexican descent as well. Yet, in 389 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: spite of all of that, zero people with Mexican or 390 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: Latin American surnames had served on a Jackson County jury 391 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: in twenty five years. They also had polenty of evidence 392 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: of Mexican Americans in Jackson County not being treated as white. 393 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: Until the decision in del got O versus blast Trop 394 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: in September, Mexican children in Texas had not been allowed 395 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: to attend school with white children. There was at least 396 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: one restaurant with a posted sign that Mexicans would not 397 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: be served, along with signs that said quote no chili, 398 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: which meant exactly the same thing. But the most compelling 399 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: piece of evidence of discrimination again against Mexican Americans that 400 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: was present had before the Supreme Court came from Johnny 401 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: Herrera's own experience, and it had also been part of 402 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: that first motion to quash the jury in Hernandez's original trial. 403 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: During that original trial in Jackson County, Herrera had gone 404 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: to the restroom and he had found that there were 405 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: two bathrooms. One of them was unmarked and the other 406 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: was labeled colored men and under that ombre zeki or 407 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: men here. Meanwhile, the state of Texas argued that the 408 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: lack of Mexican and Latin American surnames among jurors was 409 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: just a coincidence, and that Mexicans were white, so the 410 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: Fourteenth Amendment did not apply. In other words, at the 411 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: courthouse where the Texas legal system was arguing that Mexicans 412 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: were white, there were segregated restrooms, one unmarked and only 413 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: for white men, and the other marked for black and 414 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: Mexican men. Garcia, who as we said, had come back 415 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: to the hotel really late and heavily intoxicated, was pretty 416 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: quiet during the earlier parts of the arguments, but after 417 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: some of the justices asked a series of questions along 418 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: the lines of whether Mexican Americans or citizens and whether 419 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: they could speak English, he kind of revived. He started 420 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: an incredibly eloquent legal argument that combined the histories of 421 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: Mexico and the United States, including the fact that many 422 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: of the families who were being affected by this systemic 423 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: jury exclusion had been in Texas for generations before Sam 424 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: Houston even showed up there. It was Unfortunately, the transcript 425 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: of this does not seem to exist anywhere anymore. But 426 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: it was such a compelling listen that when his time 427 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: was up, Chief Justice Earl Warren told him to continue 428 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: and allowed him to talk for twelve more minutes. The 429 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 1: Supreme Court issued its unanimous decision on May third, nineteen 430 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: fifty four. By being denied a jury of his peers, 431 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 1: including Mexican Americans, Pete Hernandez had been denied Fourteenth Amendment 432 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: protections and this denial was unconstitutional. As part of Earl 433 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: lawren majority opinion, he wrote, quote throughout our history, differences 434 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: in race and color have defined easily identifiable groups which 435 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: have at times required the aid of the courts in 436 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: securing equal treatment under the laws. But community prejudices are 437 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: not static, and from time to time, other differences from 438 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: the community norm may define other groups which need the 439 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: same protection. Whether such a group exists within a community 440 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: is a question of fact. When this existence of a 441 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: distinct class is demonstrated, and it is further shown that 442 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: the laws as written or as applied, single out that 443 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: class for different treatment, not based on some reasonable classification, 444 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: the guarantees of the Constitution have been violated. The Fourteenth 445 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: Amendment is not directed solely against discrimination due to a 446 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: two class theory that is based on differences between white 447 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: and negro. He also went on to say, quote, but 448 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: it taxes our credulity to say that mere chance resulted 449 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: in there being no members of this class among the 450 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: over six thousand jurors called in the past twenty five years. 451 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: The result bespeaks discrimination, whether or not it was a 452 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: conscious decision on the part of any individual jury commissioner. 453 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: With the Supreme Court having issued its decision, the Texas 454 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: Department of Corrections was notified that Hernandez would be remanded 455 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: for a retrial on May seventh, nineteen fifty four, and 456 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: that was four days after the decision was announced. He 457 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: was re indicted on September nineteen fifty four, and the 458 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: trial was moved to another county after a successful petition 459 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: for a change of venue. Garcia argued the new trial, 460 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: which was held on November fifteen and included two Mexican 461 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: Americans among the jury. Hernandez was again found guilty and 462 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: this time sentenced to twenty years in prison. He was 463 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 1: recommended for parole on June seventh, nineteen sixty and Governor 464 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,239 Speaker 1: Price Daniel ordered his release on the next day. This 465 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: was in part due to advocacy by Garcia, who recognized 466 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: that Hernandez had knowingly risk his own life in pursuit 467 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: of this civil rights school. As we said earlier, the 468 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: facts of the case were clear and that he had 469 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: committed murder, so by allowing this case to be appealed, 470 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: he was knowingly risking a death sentence. Her Nanda's versus 471 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: Texas was notable and influential in a lot of ways, 472 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: since it's set the precedent that the Fourteenth Amendments protections 473 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: applied to Mexican Americans that laid the ground work for 474 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: fighting other forms of discrimination against them, including things like 475 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: housing and employment discrimination. The idea that the Fourteenth Amendment 476 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: was not just related to a two class idea of 477 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: race was also a huge deal. Before her name is 478 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: versus Texas. Most Fourteenth Amendment arguments were about black and white, 479 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: not about any other race or ethnic group. But the 480 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: application of those same rights and protections to Mexican Americans 481 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: meant that in the United States race was not just 482 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: a two class system. There were other classes as well, 483 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: some of them not related to race in any way. 484 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: Who could be the targets of unconstitutional discrimination to recap 485 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: what we said at the top of the show. Hernandez 486 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: versus Texas was also hugely important because it was the 487 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: first Supreme Court case related to civil rights for Mexican Americans, 488 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 1: particularly after the World War two era, and it was 489 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: the first to be argued by Mexican Americans. People doing 490 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: it weren't being backed by any kind of nationwide legal 491 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: organization or a strategy. They were just a handful of 492 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: local lawyers who were also Mexican American, of which there 493 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: were not that many practicing in Texas. The four of 494 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,959 Speaker 1: them represented roughly of the Mexican American lawyers practicing anywhere 495 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: in Texas at the time, so this was a groundbreaking 496 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: first from a lot of different directions. Hernandez versus Texas 497 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: continued to be the main president in civil rights cases 498 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: for Mexican Americans until nineteen seventy one, when cy Naro's 499 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: versus Corpus Christie Independent School Districts recognized Hispanics as a 500 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: distinct minority group, with all the constitutional protections that apply 501 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: to other minority groups applying to Hispanics as well. However, 502 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: the core issue that started this whole case, which was 503 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: the under representation of Mexican Americans on juries continues to 504 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: be an issue. In nineteen seventy seven, the Supreme Court 505 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: heard Costanata versus Pardita, which found that a defendant had 506 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: been discriminated against in part because seventy nine percent of 507 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: the county's population where he lived with Mexican American, but 508 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: over an eleven year period, only thirty nine percent of 509 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: those summoned to be on the grand jury were Mexican American. 510 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: Carlos Cadena served as the City Attorney of San Antonio 511 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: until nineteen sixty one, when he joined the faculty at 512 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: Saint Mary's School of Law and became the nation's first 513 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: Mexican American law professor. He was later appointed to the 514 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: Fourth Court of Appeals and eventually became its Chief Justice, 515 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: making him the first Mexican American to hold that position. 516 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: He helped co found the Mexican American Legal Defense and 517 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: Educational Fund became its first national president. He died of 518 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: lung cancer in two thousand eleven. Johnny Herrera continued with 519 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: his civil rights work for the rest of his career, 520 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: eventually becoming the national LULAC President and working as its 521 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: national legal Advisor. He died after a stroke. In nineteen 522 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: eighty six, James DeAnda was appointed to serve as a 523 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: federal judge under President Jimmy Carter. He died of prostate 524 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: cancer in two thousand six. Gus Garcia sadly struggled with 525 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: alcohol abuse for the rest of his life, which was 526 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: later compounded by depression. He was in and out of hospitals, 527 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: and he was disbarred after passing bad checks. He stopped 528 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: attending meetings of LULAC in the g I Forum, and 529 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: his behavior became increasingly erratic. He died on June third, 530 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, and he was forty eight. It's clear 531 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: that Hernando's versus Texas broadened the applicability of the Fourteenth 532 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: Amendment's protections, but there continues to be some debate about 533 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: how much it actually helped Mexican Americans. Most of its 534 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: arguments had to do with surnames, which excluded people who 535 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: had changed their last names, or who, for example, were 536 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: Mexican on their mother's side but had their father's Anglo surname, 537 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: and at least for a time, it's set the precedent 538 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: that people who were protected under the Fourteenth Amendment were 539 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: really only entitled to those protections when it was clear 540 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: that their whole community was operating under a systemic state 541 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: of discrimination, although that was later refined by other court 542 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: cases and the whole thing wasn't framed as whether Mexican 543 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: Americans deserved equal rights, but whether Mexican Americans were white. 544 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: It's actually one of the most interesting things to me 545 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: on a sort of intellectual level about this whole case. Um. 546 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: A lot of people think of race as having some 547 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: kind of inherently biological component, but it really is a 548 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: It's a social construct. And if you look at the 549 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: history of race in the United States, there's a whole 550 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: negotiation of who is and is not allowed to be white. 551 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: Uh and a lot of it is fascinating and sometimes disturbing, 552 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: And if you want a way more condensed look into 553 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: how that has worked throughout the United States history. I 554 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: strongly recommend the series Seeing White from the podcast Seen 555 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: on Radio, which goes through the whole thing. Uh. We 556 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: It touches on a lot of things we've talked about 557 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: on the show before, but in a lot more compressed 558 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: time frame, like we have some of the same things 559 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: we have talked about on the show, like some exact 560 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: episodes that we have had on the show. They have 561 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: talked about as well, but it's condensed over I think 562 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen episodes of their podcast. UM. I also 563 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: didn't say, but Pete Hernandez sort of disappears from the 564 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: historical record after he was paroled and at some point 565 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: he clearly died, but it's it's not it's not otherwise 566 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: clear exactly what happened to him after that. And regardless 567 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: of all that other stuff that we just said, Branda's 568 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: were since Texas is UH an important and groundbreaking Supreme 569 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: Court case that is just buried by Brown versus Board 570 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: coming UH immediately after it. Basically like when I was 571 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: looking for artwork related to this, there are so many 572 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: pictures from Brown versus Board and basically none from this UM. 573 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: It just did it did not get the kind of 574 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: UH national attention and coverage that Brown versus Board did, 575 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: although people at home in Texas were waiting by the 576 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: radio to find out what the Supreme Court had decided 577 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: like that, people were as attached to finding out as 578 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: like any other civil rights issue that directly pertains to 579 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: a person, people will wait for to find out what 580 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court is going to announce on it, and 581 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: that's definitely what happened in Texas with this particular case. 582 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: Do you have a little bit of listener mail to 583 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: finish this one off? This is from Jonathan uh and 584 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: Jonathan wrote a note called Iman Pasha's ethnicity, and Jonathan says, 585 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: I was listening to your two episodes on I Mean 586 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: Pasha and was surprised when you mentioned in part two 587 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: that he would have wanted to know about one of 588 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: the German African companies because he was ethnically German. In 589 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: part one you say he was a German Jew, which 590 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 1: would make him ethnically Ashkenazi, not German. Given the history 591 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: of anti Semitic persecution, even mentioned that he may have 592 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: faced anti Semitism in his education, It's not obvious to 593 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: me that he would be proud of his German nationality 594 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: and want to know about its African endeavors. Although I 595 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: realized he may have assimilated into German Christian society after 596 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: his mother remarried. Best Jonathan, So thank you very much 597 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: Jonathan for writing this note. Um. It is one a 598 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: mystery to me how I Mean Pasha conceived of his 599 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: own like ethnic and national identity. UM from like. I 600 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: read a lot of his UH papers and notes and 601 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: things like that in the context of biographies that were 602 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: compiled about him in the nineteenth century. UM. And when 603 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: he does talk about it, it's usually in the context 604 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: of letters to his mom or his sister, where he's like, Oh, 605 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: don't worry, I know I changed my name, but I'm 606 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: still German. Like That's that's pretty much the only time 607 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: he references it at all, UH, at least that I found. 608 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 1: He doesn't seem to really think on it a lot, 609 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: at least not in a way that he wrote down 610 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: in his own UH journals. And then when it comes 611 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: to other people's writing of him, most of the people 612 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: who were writing about him during or shortly after his 613 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: UM his lifetime definitely had a motive. Like when German 614 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: people were writing about him, they wrote about him as 615 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: a German and really tried to to diminish the idea 616 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: that he might have converted to Islam UH. And then 617 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: people who were Jewish, like Jewish people writing about him 618 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: tended to more emphasize the fact that Um, he had 619 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,240 Speaker 1: been Jewish from birtha but then had can verted. Like it, 620 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: it really seems like it's it's hard to get a 621 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 1: sense of both how he conceived of himself and how 622 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: other people conceived of him, because a lot of the 623 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: people who wrote down things about him clearly wanted to 624 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: establish that he was one thing or another. Um, when 625 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: we really don't have, uh, a good sense of how 626 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: he thought of himself. The family did convert when he 627 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: was five, and he was baptized at five, So from 628 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: that point on, um, at least from a like, from 629 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: a practicing religion standpoint, it's it seems like they were Lutheran. 630 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: So uh, it was definitely not my intent to diminish 631 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: the fact um that the family had been Jewish. But 632 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: I also feel like in a lot of ways he 633 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: is a chameleon in terms of his ethnicity and his religion. 634 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: And it's it's really fuzzy how he thought about all 635 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: those things related to his own self, which is usually 636 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: how you and I try to focus how people framed 637 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: their own identity, and in this case, it's, I mean, 638 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: it's it's a little unclear. Well, it is unique in 639 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 1: that he seemed to not be terribly attached to any 640 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: of those concepts anyway. Um, you know the fact that 641 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: he like up and left half of his life to 642 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: start over again, and didn't seem to have like any 643 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 1: concerns about I'm leaving behind all of the life I 644 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: have built. It's like, okay, now now it's a different life. 645 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: Like he didn't his his sense of identity seemed to 646 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: not be uh attached to much of any cultural concept 647 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: if he kind of kind of a morphous and to 648 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 1: shift a lot depending on where he was and what 649 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: he was doing at the time, and people who encountered 650 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: him at various points would have vastly different descriptions of 651 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: how he came across them on basically everything, aside from 652 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: the fact that he was very clean and meticulous and 653 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 1: thoughtful when it came to things about how he presented 654 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: himself in terms of religion or or his nationality or 655 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: or anything like that like that, that really shifts a 656 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: lot depending on when people encountered him aware. So that's that. 657 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: Thank you again for sending us that note. If you 658 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: would like to write to us about this or anither podcast, 659 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,959 Speaker 1: we're at history Podcast at how stuff works dot com. 660 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 1: And then we're all across social media under the name 661 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: missed in History. That is where you will find our Facebook, Pinterest, Tumbler, Twitter, Instagram, 662 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: all of that. Uh, And then at our website, which 663 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: is missed in history dot com, you will find a 664 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: searchable archive of all the episodes that we have ever done. 665 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: There are show notes for all of the episodes Holly 666 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: and I have ever done where you can see where 667 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: our research came from and all of that, so you 668 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 1: can do it with all that and a whole lot 669 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: more at miss in history dot com. For more on 670 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics, is how stuff Works 671 00:38:54,360 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: dot com.