Speaker 1: How did you learn what a healthy church is? Tell
Speaker 1: me walk me through that.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, I was raised Christian, and I'm very grateful
Speaker 2: for that. I was raised also going to a Christian school.
Speaker 2: And I credit first of all my parents for just
Speaker 2: how they discipled me, and yes my mom and my dad,
Speaker 2: but primarily my mom. And I think a lot of
Speaker 2: people would say that just because you spend the most
Speaker 2: time with your mom growing up and seeing her example
Speaker 2: of every single morning having her journal and her coffee
Speaker 2: and her Bible out, how she diligently prayed with me,
Speaker 2: how she how she's sang hymns with me every night,
Speaker 2: and we were just very close and had that connection.
Speaker 2: And I just followed her example in loving scripture and
Speaker 2: loving worship more than the Christian school kindergarten through twelfth grade,
Speaker 2: more than the Ijuanas, more than the Southern Baptist tradition
Speaker 2: of going to church on Wednesdays and Sunday mornings and
Speaker 2: Sunday nights, which were all beautiful and all blessings. Like
Speaker 2: I credit just the example in the diligence of my
Speaker 2: parents in discipleship. And also my grandmother lived with me
Speaker 2: until I was thirteen. We were very close and also
Speaker 2: her example. Both of my grandmother and my mom were
Speaker 2: both teachers by trade for a while before I was born,
Speaker 2: and they used that gift that God gave them to
Speaker 2: really disciple my brothers and me, but a lot of
Speaker 2: me because my brothers are a lot older than me.
Speaker 2: So anyway, I was just the beneficiary of a lot
Speaker 2: of good teaching. But it wasn't really until high school
Speaker 2: that I started taking my faith seriously and personally digging
Speaker 2: into apologetics and theology. That's when I started considering if
Speaker 2: I was what is typically referred to as reformed, although
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have necessarily called myself that reading C. S.
Speaker 2: Lewis and Tim Keller and John Piper, Matt Chandler at
Speaker 2: the time. This was all probably junior in high school,
Speaker 2: and I actually started going to another church independent of
Speaker 2: my parents that was maybe a little bit more in
Speaker 2: that direction. My friend gifted me with an ESV Study
Speaker 2: Bible when I was a freshman in college, which totally
Speaker 2: shaped my theology and still does to this day. And
Speaker 2: I would say I kind of marched steadily towards that
Speaker 2: like reformed camp, and that really shaped my theology. And
Speaker 2: so that means a lot of exa Jesus, a lot
Speaker 2: of theology, a lot of Bible, and I had been
Speaker 2: somewhat raised with a little bit of a prosperity tinge,
Speaker 2: I would say, to some of my theology, or at
Speaker 2: least there was an acceptance of the Jolo Stein theology
Speaker 2: a bit. And so when I dug into biblical theology
Speaker 2: and expository preaching, it was like a whole new intellectual
Speaker 2: world for me. And so when my husband and I
Speaker 2: got married, because shared that love, shared that passion, and
Speaker 2: we knew that we wanted expository preaching when we selected
Speaker 2: a church. Now, we're Baptists, and we're both Southern Baptists,
Speaker 2: and so that's not typically like in the Reformed camp.
Speaker 2: That's typically Presbyterian, and we don't have to get into
Speaker 2: the nitty gritty of everything that means. But that's primarily
Speaker 2: what we were looking for. We were looking for a church
Speaker 2: that teaches exogetically and that sticks to the word, and
Speaker 2: that isn't going to compromise when everyone else is compromising.
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty was a big test for everyone, and I
Speaker 2: was very thankful that my church stayed open, that my
Speaker 2: church stood firm, that my church has been clear. And
Speaker 2: also another thing for us is that it would be
Speaker 2: easy to get involved. There are solid churches, big churches
Speaker 2: that are great, but they're hard to get involved in. Like,
Speaker 2: we went to a church when we were just married
Speaker 2: that we tried to join a small group. You couldn't
Speaker 2: even join a small group anytime you wanted. It was
Speaker 2: every six months and only if there was an opening,
Speaker 2: and so like, what were you supposed to do? Just
Speaker 2: wait in the pews until someone maybe came up to
Speaker 2: you and I don't know, welcomed you in, but if not,
Speaker 2: you're just kind of going to be stranded. The church
Speaker 2: that we're in now, it was so easy to get
Speaker 2: plugged in, to go to a Sunday school class and
Speaker 2: to find you know, those people and those opportunities to serve.
Speaker 2: And so those are the two of the things that
Speaker 2: we were looking for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fantastic. We're on the exact same page with that.
Speaker 1: And I am not against big churches. I feel like
Speaker 1: I need to say that often because because it starts
Speaker 1: to sound like I'm pro small church and that's the
Speaker 1: only way to do it. There are plenty unhealthy small churches,
Speaker 1: but you need to have enough shepherds for the amount
Speaker 1: of sheep you have. And yeah, that's that's usually what's lost.
Speaker 1: So if you have a big ranch, you would want
Speaker 1: you have a lot of cattle. You want a lot
Speaker 1: of ranch hands for the amount of cattle. And usually
Speaker 1: we don't see churches that way. You you have a
Speaker 1: megachurch and just not enough leadership. That's why people get lost.
Speaker 1: That's why people aren't responding. You can't get into a
Speaker 1: small group or whatever. So in that aspect, it's wiser
Speaker 1: to be in a church that's that's the right size
Speaker 1: proportionally to its eldership. I don't I honestly, sitting here
Speaker 1: right now, I don't know the church that you go to,
Speaker 1: but I probably know them if we talked offline, I'm
Speaker 1: sure I know them. Because it's, uh, that's exactly what
Speaker 1: I would want my family to experience in church, and
Speaker 1: that's what I want any of my listeners to know
Speaker 1: about church, because I have so many people I'm sure
Speaker 1: you too, so many people go. You know what, I
Speaker 1: don't need church. I find God in the woods. I
Speaker 1: love hunting, and that's where I really experience God. And
Speaker 1: the idea of being involved in a local body serving
Speaker 1: a local body, being served by a local body is rare.
Speaker 1: And then to see you on your platform be involved
Speaker 1: and be in the nursery is It's incredible. It's an
Speaker 1: incredible blessing.
Speaker 2: Well, we see a lot of people and this is
Speaker 2: not to say you know, I'm it's what I do
Speaker 2: is like very small potatoes compared to those who are
Speaker 2: you know, like who have huge, mega platforms and get
Speaker 2: super famous in all of that. But any form of
Speaker 2: platform or any form of influence that anyone has, there's
Speaker 2: always going to be an opportunity to get sucked into
Speaker 2: the rat race and get sucked into the opportunism and
Speaker 2: the ambition that exists there. And I think like the
Speaker 2: cheat code outside of just the grace of God and
Speaker 2: the protection of God that has nothing to do with
Speaker 2: my own efforts. But in addition to that, like the
Speaker 2: cheat code to avoiding that craziness, the gossip, the backstabbing,
Speaker 2: the betrayal that even exists in like smaller conservative media,
Speaker 2: because all that exists, the corruption, the I mean, there's
Speaker 2: just craziness that goes on behind the scenes. There is
Speaker 2: living a normal life and having a normal family, not
Speaker 2: only having like a normal loving marriage, where you spend
Speaker 2: a ton of time together. You travel together. You're not
Speaker 2: like traveling off by yourself all the time, but you're
Speaker 2: together with your family. The closer you can be to
Speaker 2: real everyday people who know you, who know your life,
Speaker 2: who can speak into your life, who can say you're
Speaker 2: off on that you're going too far in that direction.
Speaker 2: You need to say no to that that's not good
Speaker 2: to you, or that's not good for you, or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, or encourage you like on the other end,
Speaker 2: like yes, you are doing great at whatever it is.
Speaker 2: The more that you can be plugged into your church,
Speaker 2: the more that you can try as much as you
Speaker 2: can to just maintain normal friendships people who don't have
Speaker 2: any kind of platform like that is the cheat code.
Speaker 2: That is how you stay honest and normal and saying.
Speaker 2: People ask me all the time, how do you talk
Speaker 2: about like the news and all of this sad stuff
Speaker 2: without getting just sad and stressed and spit And it's
Speaker 2: because I have. It's because of my life, it's because
Speaker 2: of my family, it's because of my marriage. In addition,
Speaker 2: of course, to the grace of God, it's because of
Speaker 2: all of the normalcy and stability that I have that
Speaker 2: I think is what charges me and gives me the
Speaker 2: ability to talk about the chaos that's going on in
Speaker 2: the world because I have a respite in my everyday life.
Speaker 2: So that's advice that I would give to anyone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1: Can you think of a time when someone in your
Speaker 1: family said, Ali, you're off, You're off on this.
Speaker 2: Oh, my dad calls me all the time, and it's like,
Speaker 2: I mean, not a big deal. I mean he is like,
Speaker 2: besides my husband, like my biggest cheerleader ever, and so
Speaker 2: I never doubt that. I mean, he's on the show
Speaker 2: all the time. If my husband for some reason can't
Speaker 2: travel with me, my dad travels with me all the time.
Speaker 2: And yeah, so he's great and I always trust to
Speaker 2: and I always will hear him out, but he will
Speaker 2: definitely be like, you know, I think that you should
Speaker 2: have talked to that person privately before you brought that
Speaker 2: up on the show. And I'm like, uh, I think
Speaker 2: that you're right. I shouldn't have because or you know,
Speaker 2: I think that you made around call about that or
Speaker 2: here's what you're not seeing about that. And so my
Speaker 2: dad does that. My mom has at times, and I
Speaker 2: try to be really careful and really discerning with everything
Speaker 2: I say. But my mom has at times been like,
Speaker 2: you know what, I don't think that this was the
Speaker 2: most the best thing that you could have said on
Speaker 2: social media today about that my brother a few years ago. Okay,
Speaker 2: So I don't cuss at all, I especially like not publicly.
Speaker 2: But I think I said something one time, like I
Speaker 2: don't know, maybe seven years ago. I think I said
Speaker 2: like bad a or something on Twitter. Uh, now I'm
Speaker 2: talking about publicly here, okay, And so, and my brother
Speaker 2: texted me and was like, you don't need to say
Speaker 2: something like that, like it just doesn't add anything to
Speaker 2: your argument. And I was like, you're totally right. There's
Speaker 2: no reason for me to say something like that. It
Speaker 2: doesn't make me sound smarter and if anything, it could
Speaker 2: cost someone else to stumble. And so, yeah, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of people in my life who it's not constant
Speaker 2: criticism by any means, I would say, you know, by
Speaker 2: and large, it's a lot of like encouragement and you go,
Speaker 2: and that's awesome. But I definitely have people who are
Speaker 2: not afraid to say ah, I don't think so I
Speaker 2: don't think that's right. And obviously I try to preempt
Speaker 2: those mistakes by going to them and being like, what
Speaker 2: do you think about this? Should I talk about this?
Speaker 2: Should I approach this? And I don't always get it right,
Speaker 2: you know, by any means, but I'm just thankful that
Speaker 2: I have people who are willing to speak into that.
Speaker 3: So what do you do?
Speaker 1: So your dad goes to you, Ali, I think you're
Speaker 1: wrong in this, You start to agree with them, he
Speaker 1: redukes you. Do you go back on social media and
Speaker 1: correct anything?
Speaker 3: Or do you let it go?
Speaker 2: Trying to think about the specific instance, I've definitely done that.
Speaker 2: I have definitely apologized for either my tone or something
Speaker 2: that I said, And certainly if I ever make a mistake,
Speaker 2: I always will correct it publicly, And obviously I want
Speaker 2: to avoid that. No one likes being wrong. Everyone's goal
Speaker 2: is to be great all the time, and so I
Speaker 2: try to avoid that as much as I possibly can.
Speaker 2: But I will always correct the record if I say
Speaker 2: something wrong, or if I misrepresented something, or if I
Speaker 2: unfairly criticize someone. And I can't even think about like
Speaker 2: a specific instance because I try not to do that,
Speaker 2: but I have. I've definitely gone back. I actually just
Speaker 2: had to correct the record on something today. It was
Speaker 2: something my guest said, not something I said, but she
Speaker 2: kind of threw someone under the bus, and it was
Speaker 2: it ended up being the wrong person. It's a little
Speaker 2: hard sometimes with the guests too, because I can't always
Speaker 2: fact check them in the moment. But yes, I because
Speaker 2: you know, I want people to be able to trust
Speaker 2: the show, and so being able to take that feedback
Speaker 2: is important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, where do you think the show goes? Do you
Speaker 1: think it continues to grow like it's growing now? Do
Speaker 1: you think it reaches a level where you say, you
Speaker 1: know what?
Speaker 3: I think that's enough.
Speaker 2: Hmmm. I'm trying to decide what I want to like,
Speaker 2: what I want to say publicly, but to be candid,
Speaker 2: I don't see the show lasting forever. I love it,
Speaker 2: but I have we have some other my husband and
Speaker 2: I have some other ideas too. In addition, right, I
Speaker 2: have no by the way, like I have no plans
Speaker 2: to quit the show like that is not on the timeline.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: I truly love what I do, and I love talking
Speaker 2: and all of that. So I plan unrelatable lasting but
Speaker 2: talking long term and the next like ten to fifteen years.
Speaker 2: I don't see myself going into a studio and having
Speaker 2: a four times a week show. I just I just
Speaker 2: don't I don't know what exactly it looks like. I
Speaker 2: don't see us quitting all of this all together there,
Speaker 2: But we have some other ideas for some other projects
Speaker 2: that hopefully continue to influence Christians to think about the
Speaker 2: things that matter, but does not rely on my daily voice.
Speaker 2: If that makes sense. So that's that's what I'll say.
Speaker 3: It makes total sense.
Speaker 1: I won't push you on that because I understand that
Speaker 1: we live in such an interesting time where legacy media
Speaker 1: doesn't dominate the consumption of the people.
Speaker 3: So there, I would say that because there are.
Speaker 1: Arguably probably say millions of people that rely on you
Speaker 1: for their consumption of news and politics and Christian world order.
Speaker 1: It's it's crazy, And this wouldn't have happened ten years ago.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't have you wouldn't have had this opportunity ten
Speaker 1: years ago. It's changed so much, and you have. You've
Speaker 1: really challenged me, actually, because because it's hard for me
Speaker 1: to You've challenged me that as a Christian, I need
Speaker 1: to be in politics at some level. I can't completely
Speaker 1: avoid it. Yeah, and I think to myself, how do
Speaker 1: I keep up with it though, like how would I
Speaker 1: keep informed about it? And so where do you get
Speaker 1: your information? Where are you informed to then give your
Speaker 1: Christian worldview about it?
Speaker 2: Well, I think there are different places you would go
Speaker 2: a pastor versus a podcaster, And obviously you have a
Speaker 2: podcast too, but it's not primarily focused on politics. I
Speaker 2: don't think that a pastor and I know you agree
Speaker 2: with this, needs to talk about the news every week
Speaker 2: from the pulpit, or even needs to know everything that's
Speaker 2: going on in the twenty four hour news cycle. I
Speaker 2: would say that a pastor needs to know about policy
Speaker 2: and particular policy that is going to affect his congregants
Speaker 2: and his flock. And I think that pastors in general
Speaker 2: probably need to do a better job of paying attention
Speaker 2: to always saying preaching about, but paying attention to local policy,
Speaker 2: especially any kind of local policy that has an effect
Speaker 2: on their congregants and their congregants children. Like personally, I
Speaker 2: would love to see, like say, there was a local
Speaker 2: school where a bunch of parents in the congregation were
Speaker 2: sending their kids and there was I don't know, some
Speaker 2: kind of measure that was being pushed forward that would
Speaker 2: allow boys into girls' bathrooms, or maybe it's the promotion
Speaker 2: of pornographic materials in school. I think it would be
Speaker 2: completely within the purview of a pastor to speak in
Speaker 2: to that. And maybe they don't get into the nitty
Speaker 2: gritty of the policy. Maybe they do, but to ensure
Speaker 2: that their congregants know the underneath biblical principles of that,
Speaker 2: like what is the role of the parent, What is
Speaker 2: the role of the church, What is the role of
Speaker 2: the civil government, What is the role of the parent
Speaker 2: When it comes to education, like how should we think
Speaker 2: about public education versus Christian education? What should we think
Speaker 2: about gender? What should we think about sexuality? All of
Speaker 2: those things, they have become political. Unfortunately, it's not that
Speaker 2: it's not that pastors are becoming political. It is that
Speaker 2: politics has become very theological and pastors as like you know,
Speaker 2: the theologians and the shepherds of their flock. Where those
Speaker 2: two things intersect, especially when there is going to be
Speaker 2: a tangible impact on their community, I do think have
Speaker 2: a responsibility to speak up. And I've said before, and
Speaker 2: I'm sure you agree with this. I might have even
Speaker 2: said it in our conversation that pastors, if they are
Speaker 2: preaching faithfully through the Bible. It's only going to take
Speaker 2: them twenty seven verses into Genesis to get into quote
Speaker 2: unquote politics, because right there we see that God created
Speaker 2: as male and female in his image. So we get
Speaker 2: the sanctity of life, We get the definition of gender
Speaker 2: and the definition of marriage all in one in the
Speaker 2: very first chapter of the first book of the Bible.
Speaker 2: Those are called culture war issues, but those are really
Speaker 2: creation issues. And so if a pastor is simply preaching
Speaker 2: the Bible, not talking about so called politics at all,
Speaker 2: he's going to weigh into those controversial subjects. And pastors
Speaker 2: who avoid those things, it's not that you're avoiding politics,
Speaker 2: is that you're avoiding scripture. That's inconvenient, and so I
Speaker 2: just think I think it's inevitable. There are probably a
Speaker 2: variety of ways to do it faithfully, but I do
Speaker 2: think there is a responsibility there.
Speaker 1: You know, at some point in our lives, things got
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Speaker 3: As a reminder, you.
Speaker 1: Could always get a hold of me on cameo dot
Speaker 1: com slash granger Smith. It's a great way to get
Speaker 1: a message a video message from me from anywhere in
Speaker 1: the world to whoever you want to send it to.
Speaker 1: You go to cameo dot com slash granger Smith and
Speaker 1: you fill out whatever you want me to say. Happy anniversary,
Speaker 1: happy birthday. May be a word of encouragement to someone
Speaker 1: that needs to hear it and that person may be you,
Speaker 1: and then I'll send you a video message. It's super
Speaker 1: easy and it's a good gift. I've been doing this
Speaker 1: for many years now. It's a good gift to someone
Speaker 1: that is impossible to buy for and you don't know
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Speaker 1: about this. Have you heard about yege Fest. It's happening
Speaker 1: this year May ninth and tenth in Georgetown, Texas at
Speaker 1: the EEE Farm, So you can come hang out with us. Me,
Speaker 1: my brothers, my family will all be there. We've got
Speaker 1: a truck show happening. We've got a mud bog competition,
Speaker 1: kind of like we did last year, but the new
Speaker 1: edition this year is a concert by me and my
Speaker 1: band and my old crew. This is not a tour.
Speaker 1: This is not me getting back into music. This is
Speaker 1: one time every year we hope to do a concert
Speaker 1: for my friends and family, especially Maverick who's never seen
Speaker 1: me play live before. So come out have a meal
Speaker 1: with me and my family on Friday night. I'm going
Speaker 1: to give a little devotional from the Bible, maybe play
Speaker 1: an acoustic song, or two. This is really a once
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right. How do you word it?
Speaker 3: You say, politics affects policy. Policy affects people.
Speaker 2: Politics matter because policy matters, because people matter. Politics affects policy,
Speaker 2: policy affects people.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's fantastic.
Speaker 1: And I need to I need to be better about
Speaker 1: just being aware because sometimes I watch you and I
Speaker 1: go she just is always aware of the changing tide of.
Speaker 2: Even I'm behind I feel like I'm behind it. I
Speaker 2: don't know if that makes you feel better or worse,
Speaker 2: but sure you like because I don't even have the
Speaker 2: daily news show. I've got two interviews a week that
Speaker 2: I talk about evergreen stuff, theology, whatever, and then too
Speaker 2: where we try to talk about culture politics, and I
Speaker 2: never ever ever have time to cover everything that's going on.
Speaker 2: And honestly, sometimes you just need to ignore the current
Speaker 2: news cycle because it's gonna fade out and it's really
Speaker 2: not that important and you just have to have the
Speaker 2: discernment to.
Speaker 3: Know, Yeah, you're good. I totally agree.
Speaker 1: Let's let's let's go to where this kind of all intersects,
Speaker 1: and that is this book Toxic Empathy with a with
Speaker 1: across right there at the ex I like that it
Speaker 1: works really good. Toxic empathy, how progressives exploit Christian compassion.
Speaker 1: This is a very important discussion. It's a very important book.
Speaker 1: And this is something that Christians have been talking about
Speaker 1: for maybe around a decade in a way, the misdefinition
Speaker 1: of empathy. And in your book, this kind of begins
Speaker 1: for you in twenty twenty, which it did for.
Speaker 3: A lot of us.
Speaker 1: You kind of walked through at the beginning of your book,
Speaker 1: the George Floyd incident, and I was right there with you.
Speaker 1: I remember during George Floyd, during the you're watching everyone
Speaker 1: post the Black Squares and you kind of describe how
Speaker 1: there's the secular people, then there's Christians, but they're kind
Speaker 1: of coming together, and it's like, oh.
Speaker 3: Is this a cool moment of unity?
Speaker 2: Maybe?
Speaker 1: I remember my first reaction was and I posted this
Speaker 1: my first reaction, and I was an idiot for kind
Speaker 1: of a knee jerk, but I was like, all people matter,
Speaker 1: you know, And that sounds crazy now because that in
Speaker 1: itself is it's like equivalent to a racial slur. These days,
Speaker 1: All people matter and I do remember deleting that and
Speaker 1: trying to rethink why wait, why, because I've got I
Speaker 1: got so much hate, And it was before I even
Speaker 1: knew that that was a thing that was just I
Speaker 1: remember thinking, I really need to sit with this. And
Speaker 1: I could see in your book you walking through this yourself,
Speaker 1: kind of unpacking the implications. Is one thing led to
Speaker 1: another as we watched it unfold. Fascinating and I love
Speaker 1: that that's the way you start this book because it
Speaker 1: takes us on a very important journey that everyone needs
Speaker 1: to talk about, and that is our empathy of just
Speaker 1: like a bunch of words have been hijacked, and it's
Speaker 1: not for our good.
Speaker 3: You find it at the very beginning.
Speaker 1: You're saying, the ability to place yourself in another person's shoes,
Speaker 1: with or without having a similar experience is typically called empathy. Okay,
Speaker 1: there's nothing inherently wrong with that, But then you say,
Speaker 1: empathy has been hijacked for the purpose of conforming well
Speaker 1: intentioned people to particular political agendas. Specifically, it's been co
Speaker 1: opted by the progressive wing of American society to convince
Speaker 1: people that the progressive position is exclusively the one of
Speaker 1: kindness and morality. This is where you call it toxic empathy.
Speaker 1: Fascinating stuff you talk about how this you say your
Speaker 1: feeling and my feeling too. No one wants to be
Speaker 1: seen as unempathetic because a person who completely lacks empathy
Speaker 1: may be called a narcissist, and that we're so scared
Speaker 1: of that word, like, oh, man, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be a narcissist, but you say it extorts a real
Speaker 1: good desire that most people have, which is to be
Speaker 1: and to be perceived as kind. Right, so then we
Speaker 1: you unpack. But empathy and kindness are not synonymous, and
Speaker 1: neither empathy and compassion. Kindness describes how we treat someone,
Speaker 1: either in word or deed. Compassion means to suffer with
Speaker 1: someone who's struggling. Both kindness and compassion are necessary components
Speaker 1: of love, but empathy literally means to be in the
Speaker 1: feelings of another person. Empathy, by itself is neither loving
Speaker 1: nor kind It's just an emotion.
Speaker 3: Love, on the other.
Speaker 1: Hand, is a conscious choice to seek good for another person.
Speaker 3: That's oh, that is so important. It's so important to
Speaker 3: be said, and.
Speaker 1: It's you laid it out in such a transparent way,
Speaker 1: So thank you.
Speaker 3: For this book, I should say.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, a lot of
Speaker 2: people were really confused in twenty twenty, of myself included,
Speaker 2: and there is a lot of a lot of grace
Speaker 2: for the kind of back and forth you mentioned, posting
Speaker 2: something then deleting it, not really knowing what the right
Speaker 2: thing is, not knowing the whole context of like why
Speaker 2: everyone was posting. A lot of people felt that way,
Speaker 2: and it was probably only because I was kind of
Speaker 2: plugged into the news and had watched this Black Lives
Speaker 2: Matter movement, you know, come to the forefront that I
Speaker 2: immediately was a little skeptical and struggled with that because
Speaker 2: whenever I see something like a hashtag black Lives Matter,
Speaker 2: I know I can't take that at face value. That
Speaker 2: is an organization that has values that don't align with mine,
Speaker 2: and we can get into that a little bit. More So,
Speaker 2: when I saw that black square everyone posting it, I
Speaker 2: knew that within that posting was the assumption that George
Speaker 2: Floyd was murdered because of his race, and I could
Speaker 2: not get on board with that assumption yet because I
Speaker 2: did not know that no one knew that by the way,
Speaker 2: based on the video footage that we saw, which was
Speaker 2: very scandalous to say at the time, and when I
Speaker 2: started trying to like push back against it and to say, look,
Speaker 2: at least look at the other people over here who
Speaker 2: are being damaged and hurt by the riots and by
Speaker 2: the looting that's going on in the name of honoring
Speaker 2: George Floyd. These people are also black. These people are innocent,
Speaker 2: These people are poor. There was this horrible video that
Speaker 2: I remember seeing of a woman who she lived in
Speaker 2: this town, maybe it was in Kenosha, I don't remember
Speaker 2: which town it was that ended up burning down the
Speaker 2: stores being looted. She was like, I can't even go
Speaker 2: get my prescription medicine right now. This is like an
Speaker 2: older black lady who is just crying because her town
Speaker 2: and where she earns her livelihood and where she gets
Speaker 2: her necessities has been ransacked by these people who were
Speaker 2: rioting in the name of racial justice. And when I
Speaker 2: tried to say, look, there are other people on the
Speaker 2: side of this moral equation that we shouldn't ignore, the
Speaker 2: thing that I heard over and over again was you're
Speaker 2: not showing empathy, you're not having empathy. And of course
Speaker 2: what they meant was is that I'm not putting all
Speaker 2: my empathy in the direction that they want it to.
Speaker 2: My empathy isn't going the way that they want it
Speaker 2: to go. I'm supposed to apparently ignore the people over here,
Speaker 2: ignore the facts, ignore the unanswered questions, and just unconditionally
Speaker 2: support a cause because that is the empathetic way. I
Speaker 2: was even told by some Christians that right now the
Speaker 2: truth doesn't matter because we should just show empathy. So
Speaker 2: that's really what started, you know, getting me to think
Speaker 2: about things like, Okay, they're using empathy as a synonym
Speaker 2: for love, but is it really loving to lie to someone?
Speaker 2: Like if someone says I think all police officers are racist,
Speaker 2: I think America is systemically racist from the core, that
Speaker 2: everyone who is not white is disadvantaged, that we have
Speaker 2: endemic white privilege, that the church is inherently white supremacist,
Speaker 2: all this stuff. Someone believes that, Is it really loving
Speaker 2: of me to affirm it? If I know that the
Speaker 2: facts don't bear that out, and if I know that
Speaker 2: that's not even a biblical definition of justice to lump
Speaker 2: everyone in, you know, into a guilty category because of
Speaker 2: their lack of melanin, is it really loving for me?
Speaker 2: And the name of empathy to say, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 2: know you feel that way, and you are right about that,
Speaker 2: and I am here with you. To me, that would
Speaker 2: be like if my daughter, you know, three years old,
Speaker 2: said there's a monster in the corner of her room.
Speaker 2: I know it's a pile of clothes, but I say,
Speaker 2: you should be scared. That is a monster and it's
Speaker 2: gonna come get you. That's not loving. The loving thing
Speaker 2: for me to do would be to turn the light
Speaker 2: on now, not rudely, not aggressively, not discounting her feelings,
Speaker 2: but saying, I love you so much, you're protected, you're safe.
Speaker 2: Look at what this really is. And I know it's
Speaker 2: a bit more complex and layered when we're talking about
Speaker 2: all of these you know, racial issues in the United States,
Speaker 2: which America has had. But that was what I wrestled
Speaker 2: with so much in that summer of twenty twenty and
Speaker 2: why what I tried to kind of like push back against.
Speaker 2: And that is where this like when I realized, Wow,
Speaker 2: this empathy, this being in one particular side feelings, one
Speaker 2: purported victim's feelings and ignoring everything else, really is deluding
Speaker 2: a lot of people and messing up their perception of
Speaker 2: truth and justice and love and goodness, and then I
Speaker 2: saw how it manifests itself in abortion and gender in
Speaker 2: marriage and all of these other issues too, and that
Speaker 2: was kind of the basis of my book.
Speaker 1: It's it's fascinating because I've used that illustration similar with
Speaker 1: my son Maverick, who's three me.
Speaker 2: You have.
Speaker 1: And when I'm talking to men that say they're they're
Speaker 1: weak in their faith, or they've lost their faith, or
Speaker 1: they they don't have a faith, I try to I
Speaker 1: think of it in terms of if faith, having faith
Speaker 1: would be to trust someone, then you could only trust
Speaker 1: someone as far as you know them. And as God
Speaker 1: has revealed himself through his word, we could learn to
Speaker 1: trust him by learning more and more who he is
Speaker 1: through his word. And I say, Maverick could be in
Speaker 1: his room seeing shadows in the corner, and he could
Speaker 1: call for me because he's scared, he's terrified. But all
Speaker 1: I have to do is walk in there and say
Speaker 1: I'm right here, it's okay. And he believes me because
Speaker 1: he knows me, because he trusts me. And so many
Speaker 1: times we could be scared of these these dark shadows,
Speaker 1: and that would only be because we don't know who
Speaker 1: is with us?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: You took a huge step.
Speaker 1: I believe you took a huge step with this book
Speaker 1: because I open it up and I'm thinking, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm wondering how you're going to lay this out. You
Speaker 1: open it up to the contents, and it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is all it says in the contents page introduction.
Speaker 1: Lie number one, abortion is healthcare, Lie number two, trans
Speaker 1: women or women, Lie number three, Love is love, Lie
Speaker 1: number four, No human is illegal, Line number five, social
Speaker 1: justice is justice.
Speaker 3: Conclusion. That's it. That's the book.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, man, she came with a sword.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're not messing around. It's just five lives
Speaker 1: and you unpack each other. You knew when you I
Speaker 1: bet when the box came to your house and you
Speaker 1: got this. You pulled this book out for the first time.
Speaker 1: You must have been full of joy and at the
Speaker 1: same time knowing the weight of what was going to
Speaker 1: happen when this went out, because you're coming with a sword.
Speaker 1: How how have you felt now that it's been for
Speaker 1: five six months since it's been out. How have you
Speaker 1: felt with the reaction? Are you cautious about reading some
Speaker 1: of the reviews knowing that they're coming after you.
Speaker 3: Are you so confident?
Speaker 2: Uh, let's see. I honestly, I didn't really. I didn't
Speaker 2: think about it like that. I didn't think, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: this is going to make such a huge impact and
Speaker 2: so many people are going to be mad about this.
Speaker 2: I knew that it was a possibility that the usual
Speaker 2: suspects would be mad. Obviously, I knew progressives would not
Speaker 2: like it. I actually the parts that I thought would
Speaker 2: be a lot more controversial haven't really, as far as
Speaker 2: I know, landed anywhere. Like, for example, my whole chapter
Speaker 2: about same sex so called marriage or same sex unions
Speaker 2: and why I really think Oberga Fell was the wrong decision.
Speaker 2: I thought that that would make a bigger splash. My
Speaker 2: social justice chapter where I say some very inconvenient facts
Speaker 2: about crime and prison in the United States. I thought
Speaker 2: that would be the thing that kind of ruffles some feathers.
Speaker 2: But really what made people the angriest is just the title,
Speaker 2: and I was not expecting that that people even though
Speaker 2: the subtitle explains what I'm talking about that I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that every form of empathy is toxic and that
Speaker 2: all manifestations of empathy are toxic. That's you know, I
Speaker 2: address that in the very introduction, but even the subtitle
Speaker 2: that says how progressives exploit Christian compassion, that is what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about, That this is a form of empathy
Speaker 2: that has been hijacked and manipulated. Not that all empathy
Speaker 2: is in itself toxic, but people have taken the title
Speaker 2: and have said, you know, David French just put an
Speaker 2: article out in the New York Times that you know,
Speaker 2: people like Alibeth Stucky are against empathy and they're against
Speaker 2: anyone using their empathy to think through issues, and all
Speaker 2: kinds of people who just touch that title yes and
Speaker 2: just say, oh, you know, she doesn't have any empathy.
Speaker 2: She's against all empathy. People shouldn't have empathy for her
Speaker 2: because she doesn't have empathy for anyone. I'm surprised at
Speaker 2: how much conversation and dialogue and heated debate the title alone,
Speaker 2: cause I'm thankful for it. I mean, every author wants
Speaker 2: the title of their book to become kind of like
Speaker 2: part of the lexicon and part of the dialogue. I
Speaker 2: wish some of the people misrepresenting it would actually read
Speaker 2: the book, even if they disagree, Like I'm fine with
Speaker 2: the review from someone who says I didn't like it
Speaker 2: because of X y Z, but read it, read it
Speaker 2: beyond the first two words, but a lot of the
Speaker 2: misrepresentations just aren't truthful. To answer your question, I don't
Speaker 2: really read the I don't read the negative reviews.
Speaker 1: I just don't.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think that there's any like good
Speaker 2: re too.
Speaker 1: Honestly, you can't, and I don't think anybody would advise
Speaker 1: you to it. It's not sustainable. I don't think we're
Speaker 1: built to sit there and read random criticism from people
Speaker 1: that we are so far disconnected with. We have no
Speaker 1: idea who they are, where they live, or what their
Speaker 1: worldview is.
Speaker 3: We have no idea. It wouldn't be healthy at all.
Speaker 1: It's fairly healthy to hear criticism from someone at the
Speaker 1: grocery store in the right behind you in line, much
Speaker 1: less someone that's in a different country that the English
Speaker 1: is not even their first language.
Speaker 3: So I was going, That's where I was going.
Speaker 1: I was wondering, if you kind of what precautions you
Speaker 1: put up for yourself to protect yourself.
Speaker 3: I actually looked.
Speaker 1: This morning and went through your Instagram from the last
Speaker 1: couple of months, and I found one time that you
Speaker 1: commented on one of your posts to someone else and
Speaker 1: so that you could correct me if I'm wrong, But
Speaker 1: I thought, I bet you she doesn't go back and
Speaker 1: look and read through to protect yourself, which would be wise.
Speaker 2: Yes, I try not to. Now there are times when
Speaker 2: I have, and I was way worse about that when
Speaker 2: I first started, like when I was just posting on
Speaker 2: a blog, and like, I just think about that time wasted.
Speaker 2: People need to remember that your time can either be
Speaker 2: an expense or an investment, just like your finances. You
Speaker 2: can either just spend it and waste it, or you
Speaker 2: can get a return on it. And all of the
Speaker 2: times that I have spent reading through comments and just
Speaker 2: getting riled up about it is wasted time. It's really,
Speaker 2: it's not redemptive time at all. Those are not seeds
Speaker 2: that you know I've planned that will bloom an eternity.
Speaker 2: That is like anxiety and worry and fear wasted. And
Speaker 2: so you're right. I don't typically do that. And it's
Speaker 2: not even just for that to protect my own piece.
Speaker 2: It's because it's hard for me to have self control
Speaker 2: when I want to respond to people, because I want
Speaker 2: to match their sassiness. I want to be rude back
Speaker 2: to them. I want to insult them back, and so
Speaker 2: it you know, I mean, it inspire sin and so
Speaker 2: I just don't. I just try not to. But I'll
Speaker 2: tell you also like a little story, and this is
Speaker 2: all part of the apparatus of trying to protect that.
Speaker 2: My friend the other day, I actually don't really like
Speaker 2: love it when this happens. But I had a friend
Speaker 2: and you know, well meaning sent me something saying like,
Speaker 2: did you see this like podcast that these two people
Speaker 2: did about you, talking about you misrepresenting you? And I
Speaker 2: was like, no, I didn't see that. And so I
Speaker 2: whipped at my husband and I was like, hey, did
Speaker 2: you see this? And he was like, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 2: listened to it yesterday. He was like I wanted to
Speaker 2: listen to it just to see like if they said
Speaker 2: anything or you know, if there was any like response
Speaker 2: to you. It was fine, They're just stupid and don't
Speaker 2: worry about it. And so that like I feel very
Speaker 2: covered and like protected that. My husband is like fielding
Speaker 2: a lot of that criticism. He's not responding to them,
Speaker 2: but he's can out and I don't feel like if
Speaker 2: he doesn't feel like there's a threat. That's the only
Speaker 2: thing I'm worried about. Is there a threat to my kids?
Speaker 2: Is there a threat to us? Is there some like
Speaker 2: crazy lie going on out there? And I feel that
Speaker 2: he is looking out for that, and if he's doing that,
Speaker 2: then I don't need to worry about it at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, amen, that's great. I do feel like Amber covers
Speaker 1: a lot for me as well. In a similar way.
Speaker 1: I'll see something really negative or something that's kind of
Speaker 1: growing virally about me, and Amber will always be like, oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: I saw it.
Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna say anything about it, you know, so
Speaker 1: Cheryl catch it before I do. And then does that
Speaker 1: ever come up in the church? Are you pastored in
Speaker 1: that way? Do you ever have an elder coming? And
Speaker 1: is that ever a discussion through your husband?
Speaker 2: Okay, well there was. I can think of a couple instances,
Speaker 2: and maybe there's been more over the years. But when
Speaker 2: last year, a couple of years ago, I was duly
Speaker 2: catching a lot of heat, all these all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: these like or it seems like all of a sudden
Speaker 2: to me. These critics came out being like she's an
Speaker 2: undercover feminist because she has a podcast and women shouldn't
Speaker 2: be podcasting, they shouldn't be talking about cultural issues at all.
Speaker 2: And all of a sudden, it seems like there was
Speaker 2: just this growing group of people who I would have thought, Okay,
Speaker 2: we're on the same team, we're both Christian conservatives, being like,
Speaker 2: no one should listen to her simply because she's a woman.
Speaker 2: This is a culture war. Women shouldn't be fighting battles.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I'm just talking. This is I mean,
Speaker 2: it's a metaphor, this is not literal battle. I agree
Speaker 2: women shouldn't be in combat, but we're talking here and so,
Speaker 2: but that was very stressful because it wasn't just progressive
Speaker 2: as being like, oh, she's pro life or something, because
Speaker 2: I understand those people have a different worldview. It's people
Speaker 2: kind of on my team and it and it went
Speaker 2: into the personal realm of oh wow, like am I
Speaker 2: good mom? Am I good wife? Am I like a
Speaker 2: following Ephesians five? Like all of this stuff. It kind
Speaker 2: of cut deep as someone who doesn't even believe women
Speaker 2: should be pastors, women should preach. I don't call myself
Speaker 2: a feminist. I'm very much a complimentarian. To have these
Speaker 2: people who call themselves beyond complimentarian say you know, I'm
Speaker 2: too liberal. That kind of hurt me, and I just
Speaker 2: remember my pastor very like kind of subtly, but clearly
Speaker 2: and directly. He just you know, came up to my
Speaker 2: husband and me after the sermon one day it was like,
Speaker 2: I just want you to know, like, sorry, I'm not
Speaker 2: about to cry. I just got something.
Speaker 3: I get it.
Speaker 2: He just said, you know, I just want you to
Speaker 2: know that we are with you, and we believe that
Speaker 2: what you are doing and how y'all are organizing your
Speaker 2: life is right and good and we support you one
Speaker 2: hundred percent. He's also very protective of, like our privacy.
Speaker 2: There have been times where he's been like, can I
Speaker 2: like direct people towards your you know, towards your podcast
Speaker 2: before the election and stuff, or do you want you
Speaker 2: know to be private? But he's been very supportive. And
Speaker 2: then when my book came out and some of the
Speaker 2: criticism that I got from people like Russell Moore and
Speaker 2: David French and all of that was out there, the
Speaker 2: executive pastor also kind of had a conversation with my
Speaker 2: husband and me after service one day and was like,
Speaker 2: I read your book. I think it's brave it's good,
Speaker 2: it's biblical. Thank you for writing it, and that like
Speaker 2: coming from your pastors, it just means a lot. It
Speaker 2: means a lot, and so you just feel very protected
Speaker 2: on a variety of fronts family church, and again that
Speaker 2: insulates you from a lot, a lot of the craziness
Speaker 2: and just the exhaustion that comes with the whole news
Speaker 2: and politics world.
Speaker 3: That is so encouraging to hear.
Speaker 1: It sounds like you have a very faithful church, and
Speaker 1: I you know, to come full circle in this conversation,
Speaker 1: why it is so important for everybody, not just a
Speaker 1: famous podcaster like yourself, but for anybody to be surrounded
Speaker 1: by wise counsel, to be under expositional teaching, to be
Speaker 1: under a in the body of a group of believers
Speaker 1: that are holding each other accountable in all the different aspects.
Speaker 1: I mean you, you, as a member of your church,
Speaker 1: are different than the person sitting right down the aisle.
Speaker 1: But that's how a body is. That eye is different.
Speaker 3: Than the hand.
Speaker 1: And and so to hear that you're pastored well, to
Speaker 1: hear that your husband is your your business manager, that
Speaker 1: your kids travel with you, so encouraging and inspiring and
Speaker 1: evident in the boldness and the truthfulness that you speak
Speaker 1: with in your program and all in your social media.
Speaker 1: Knowing that that's grounded on a a team of people
Speaker 1: that love you is encouraging to know that you're in
Speaker 1: good hands.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I appreciate that so much. And I
Speaker 2: also all of this gives me a lot of freedom.
Speaker 2: I think what also makes me feel bold is that
Speaker 2: I truly feel like if at any point I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't want to do this anymore, I don't want
Speaker 2: to do this, then I totally could. I don't feel
Speaker 2: any pressure from my husband or anyone to like keep going.
Speaker 2: And he has always told me he wants he wants
Speaker 2: to do this one. We love working together, we love
Speaker 2: building things together. But he's always said, it's the love
Speaker 2: for what I do goes beyond being willing to do
Speaker 2: it for free, like I would pay to do it.
Speaker 2: That's what he's always said, like he would pay to
Speaker 2: do what you do. And he's always just wanted to
Speaker 2: support that as much as possible. But he has always said,
Speaker 2: if you don't want to do that at any point,
Speaker 2: don't stop. We'll figure it out. And that, I mean,
Speaker 2: there's just so much freedom in that and beauty in
Speaker 2: that too. So yes, I'm very very grateful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're holding it with an open hand. And the
Speaker 1: minute you start closing that fist around it, you're going
Speaker 1: to chase things harder, You're going to dig deeper, you're
Speaker 1: going to be try to be more controversial than you
Speaker 1: need to be. Yeah, And so the fact that you're
Speaker 1: holding it loosely is I believe biblical and and and
Speaker 1: that's why I believe you're as happy as you are
Speaker 1: because you just seem with all the things going on,
Speaker 1: you could easily be jaded and depressed and you know, frazzled,
Speaker 1: and you just you kind of just always seem level
Speaker 1: and that's encouraging. Let me ask you, did you did
Speaker 1: you have a radical conversion or do you Are you
Speaker 1: one of those that just you grew up in a
Speaker 1: Christian home and you you can't remember a time when
Speaker 1: you're not you're not a Christian.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I would not call it a radical conversion, and
Speaker 2: I was definitely raised in a Christian home. Very thankful
Speaker 2: for that. I will say that there was some back tracking,
Speaker 2: if you would even call it that. I want to
Speaker 2: be as accurate as possible, but there was a time
Speaker 2: in college and a little bit after and I write
Speaker 2: about this in my first book, where I just decided
Speaker 2: that I wanted to see what the party life was about.
Speaker 2: And it was very stupid and even though you know,
Speaker 2: some people would laugh like, oh, that's what everyone does
Speaker 2: in college, and yeah, that's you know, what college students
Speaker 2: should do, at least it was isolated to that. I
Speaker 2: don't think of it like that. I don't think of
Speaker 2: that period of time in my life when I was
Speaker 2: twenty one twenty two and I decided to party and
Speaker 2: rely on like unhealthy relationships for attention as just like
Speaker 2: this trivial time. I see it as time wasted. I
Speaker 2: don't beat myself up about it every day, because I'm
Speaker 2: thankful for the grace of God and how He's redeemed
Speaker 2: me and all of that. But what makes me sad
Speaker 2: about it is that I knew better and I still
Speaker 2: decided to go down that path. I ended up developing
Speaker 2: an eating disorder that ended up God ended up using
Speaker 2: that to actually like bring me back because a biblical
Speaker 2: counselor spoke truth into my life because of that addiction
Speaker 2: that I had. But I just I really see that
Speaker 2: period of like just sin and rebellion in my life,
Speaker 2: with a lot of like, with a lot of sadness,
Speaker 2: a lot of gratitude for God for just being so
Speaker 2: gracious and bringing me back and just being as forgiving
Speaker 2: and kind as he is. But I think I think
Speaker 2: it's good. I'm glad I feel sad about that time.
Speaker 2: I think we should always feel sad about sin. I
Speaker 2: think we should always feel that grief about it. And
Speaker 2: it also has given me a lot of I hope,
Speaker 2: wisdom to be able to equip my daughters for whenever,
Speaker 2: you know, whatever they go out into the world and
Speaker 2: whatever that looks like. It's so easy to trivialize sin
Speaker 2: when you're young. It's not trivial. Like sin is never trivial.
Speaker 2: It's never trivial. That's what I want to tell people.
Speaker 2: It's ver small and so yeah, I don't know if
Speaker 2: I would call that a radical conversion. But I also
Speaker 2: can't say that it was a straight line from A
Speaker 2: to b if a testimony, ever, is a straight line
Speaker 2: from A to B. Yeah, And you know, God works
Speaker 2: all things together for our good and his glory, and
Speaker 2: even that part of my life he has and will.
Speaker 2: But yes, there was that period of just turning my
Speaker 2: back on things in college that i'm yeah, still sad about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good because a small view of sin is
Speaker 1: always a result of a small view of God and
Speaker 1: your sans these is always a big view of God
Speaker 1: and so on.
Speaker 3: Behalf of so many.
Speaker 1: I say thank you and I'm honored that you spent
Speaker 1: some of your valuable time with me on the pod today.
Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you. Great talking with you again.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was a joy to talk to you. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Of course, thanks for joining me on the Grangersmith podcast.
Speaker 1: I appreciate all of you.
Speaker 3: Guys.
Speaker 1: You could help me out by rating this podcast on iTunes.
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