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Speaker 1: How did you learn what a healthy church is? Tell

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Speaker 1: me walk me through that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, I was raised Christian, and I'm very grateful

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Speaker 2: for that. I was raised also going to a Christian school.

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Speaker 2: And I credit first of all my parents for just

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Speaker 2: how they discipled me, and yes my mom and my dad,

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Speaker 2: but primarily my mom. And I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: people would say that just because you spend the most

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Speaker 2: time with your mom growing up and seeing her example

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Speaker 2: of every single morning having her journal and her coffee

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Speaker 2: and her Bible out, how she diligently prayed with me,

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Speaker 2: how she how she's sang hymns with me every night,

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Speaker 2: and we were just very close and had that connection.

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Speaker 2: And I just followed her example in loving scripture and

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Speaker 2: loving worship more than the Christian school kindergarten through twelfth grade,

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Speaker 2: more than the Ijuanas, more than the Southern Baptist tradition

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Speaker 2: of going to church on Wednesdays and Sunday mornings and

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Speaker 2: Sunday nights, which were all beautiful and all blessings. Like

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Speaker 2: I credit just the example in the diligence of my

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Speaker 2: parents in discipleship. And also my grandmother lived with me

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Speaker 2: until I was thirteen. We were very close and also

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Speaker 2: her example. Both of my grandmother and my mom were

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Speaker 2: both teachers by trade for a while before I was born,

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Speaker 2: and they used that gift that God gave them to

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Speaker 2: really disciple my brothers and me, but a lot of

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Speaker 2: me because my brothers are a lot older than me.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, I was just the beneficiary of a lot

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Speaker 2: of good teaching. But it wasn't really until high school

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Speaker 2: that I started taking my faith seriously and personally digging

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Speaker 2: into apologetics and theology. That's when I started considering if

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Speaker 2: I was what is typically referred to as reformed, although

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't have necessarily called myself that reading C. S.

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Speaker 2: Lewis and Tim Keller and John Piper, Matt Chandler at

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Speaker 2: the time. This was all probably junior in high school,

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Speaker 2: and I actually started going to another church independent of

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Speaker 2: my parents that was maybe a little bit more in

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Speaker 2: that direction. My friend gifted me with an ESV Study

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Speaker 2: Bible when I was a freshman in college, which totally

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Speaker 2: shaped my theology and still does to this day. And

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Speaker 2: I would say I kind of marched steadily towards that

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Speaker 2: like reformed camp, and that really shaped my theology. And

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Speaker 2: so that means a lot of exa Jesus, a lot

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Speaker 2: of theology, a lot of Bible, and I had been

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Speaker 2: somewhat raised with a little bit of a prosperity tinge,

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Speaker 2: I would say, to some of my theology, or at

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Speaker 2: least there was an acceptance of the Jolo Stein theology

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Speaker 2: a bit. And so when I dug into biblical theology

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Speaker 2: and expository preaching, it was like a whole new intellectual

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Speaker 2: world for me. And so when my husband and I

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Speaker 2: got married, because shared that love, shared that passion, and

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Speaker 2: we knew that we wanted expository preaching when we selected

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Speaker 2: a church. Now, we're Baptists, and we're both Southern Baptists,

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Speaker 2: and so that's not typically like in the Reformed camp.

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Speaker 2: That's typically Presbyterian, and we don't have to get into

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Speaker 2: the nitty gritty of everything that means. But that's primarily

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Speaker 2: what we were looking for. We were looking for a church

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Speaker 2: that teaches exogetically and that sticks to the word, and

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Speaker 2: that isn't going to compromise when everyone else is compromising.

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Speaker 2: Twenty twenty was a big test for everyone, and I

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Speaker 2: was very thankful that my church stayed open, that my

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Speaker 2: church stood firm, that my church has been clear. And

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Speaker 2: also another thing for us is that it would be

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Speaker 2: easy to get involved. There are solid churches, big churches

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Speaker 2: that are great, but they're hard to get involved in. Like,

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Speaker 2: we went to a church when we were just married

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Speaker 2: that we tried to join a small group. You couldn't

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Speaker 2: even join a small group anytime you wanted. It was

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Speaker 2: every six months and only if there was an opening,

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Speaker 2: and so like, what were you supposed to do? Just

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Speaker 2: wait in the pews until someone maybe came up to

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Speaker 2: you and I don't know, welcomed you in, but if not,

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Speaker 2: you're just kind of going to be stranded. The church

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Speaker 2: that we're in now, it was so easy to get

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Speaker 2: plugged in, to go to a Sunday school class and

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Speaker 2: to find you know, those people and those opportunities to serve.

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Speaker 2: And so those are the two of the things that

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Speaker 2: we were looking for.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fantastic. We're on the exact same page with that.

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Speaker 1: And I am not against big churches. I feel like

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Speaker 1: I need to say that often because because it starts

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Speaker 1: to sound like I'm pro small church and that's the

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Speaker 1: only way to do it. There are plenty unhealthy small churches,

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Speaker 1: but you need to have enough shepherds for the amount

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Speaker 1: of sheep you have. And yeah, that's that's usually what's lost.

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Speaker 1: So if you have a big ranch, you would want

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Speaker 1: you have a lot of cattle. You want a lot

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Speaker 1: of ranch hands for the amount of cattle. And usually

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Speaker 1: we don't see churches that way. You you have a

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Speaker 1: megachurch and just not enough leadership. That's why people get lost.

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Speaker 1: That's why people aren't responding. You can't get into a

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Speaker 1: small group or whatever. So in that aspect, it's wiser

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Speaker 1: to be in a church that's that's the right size

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Speaker 1: proportionally to its eldership. I don't I honestly, sitting here

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Speaker 1: right now, I don't know the church that you go to,

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Speaker 1: but I probably know them if we talked offline, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure I know them. Because it's, uh, that's exactly what

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Speaker 1: I would want my family to experience in church, and

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Speaker 1: that's what I want any of my listeners to know

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Speaker 1: about church, because I have so many people I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you too, so many people go. You know what, I

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Speaker 1: don't need church. I find God in the woods. I

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Speaker 1: love hunting, and that's where I really experience God. And

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Speaker 1: the idea of being involved in a local body serving

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Speaker 1: a local body, being served by a local body is rare.

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Speaker 1: And then to see you on your platform be involved

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Speaker 1: and be in the nursery is It's incredible. It's an

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Speaker 1: incredible blessing.

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Speaker 2: Well, we see a lot of people and this is

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Speaker 2: not to say you know, I'm it's what I do

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Speaker 2: is like very small potatoes compared to those who are

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Speaker 2: you know, like who have huge, mega platforms and get

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Speaker 2: super famous in all of that. But any form of

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Speaker 2: platform or any form of influence that anyone has, there's

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Speaker 2: always going to be an opportunity to get sucked into

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Speaker 2: the rat race and get sucked into the opportunism and

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Speaker 2: the ambition that exists there. And I think like the

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Speaker 2: cheat code outside of just the grace of God and

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Speaker 2: the protection of God that has nothing to do with

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Speaker 2: my own efforts. But in addition to that, like the

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Speaker 2: cheat code to avoiding that craziness, the gossip, the backstabbing,

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Speaker 2: the betrayal that even exists in like smaller conservative media,

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Speaker 2: because all that exists, the corruption, the I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: just craziness that goes on behind the scenes. There is

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Speaker 2: living a normal life and having a normal family, not

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Speaker 2: only having like a normal loving marriage, where you spend

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Speaker 2: a ton of time together. You travel together. You're not

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Speaker 2: like traveling off by yourself all the time, but you're

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Speaker 2: together with your family. The closer you can be to

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Speaker 2: real everyday people who know you, who know your life,

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Speaker 2: who can speak into your life, who can say you're

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Speaker 2: off on that you're going too far in that direction.

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Speaker 2: You need to say no to that that's not good

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Speaker 2: to you, or that's not good for you, or whatever

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Speaker 2: it is, or encourage you like on the other end,

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Speaker 2: like yes, you are doing great at whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: The more that you can be plugged into your church,

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Speaker 2: the more that you can try as much as you

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Speaker 2: can to just maintain normal friendships people who don't have

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Speaker 2: any kind of platform like that is the cheat code.

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Speaker 2: That is how you stay honest and normal and saying.

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Speaker 2: People ask me all the time, how do you talk

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Speaker 2: about like the news and all of this sad stuff

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Speaker 2: without getting just sad and stressed and spit And it's

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Speaker 2: because I have. It's because of my life, it's because

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Speaker 2: of my family, it's because of my marriage. In addition,

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Speaker 2: of course, to the grace of God, it's because of

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Speaker 2: all of the normalcy and stability that I have that

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Speaker 2: I think is what charges me and gives me the

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Speaker 2: ability to talk about the chaos that's going on in

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Speaker 2: the world because I have a respite in my everyday life.

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Speaker 2: So that's advice that I would give to anyone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good.

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Speaker 1: Can you think of a time when someone in your

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Speaker 1: family said, Ali, you're off, You're off on this.

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Speaker 2: Oh, my dad calls me all the time, and it's like,

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Speaker 2: I mean, not a big deal. I mean he is like,

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Speaker 2: besides my husband, like my biggest cheerleader ever, and so

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Speaker 2: I never doubt that. I mean, he's on the show

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Speaker 2: all the time. If my husband for some reason can't

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Speaker 2: travel with me, my dad travels with me all the time.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, so he's great and I always trust to

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Speaker 2: and I always will hear him out, but he will

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Speaker 2: definitely be like, you know, I think that you should

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Speaker 2: have talked to that person privately before you brought that

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Speaker 2: up on the show. And I'm like, uh, I think

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Speaker 2: that you're right. I shouldn't have because or you know,

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Speaker 2: I think that you made around call about that or

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Speaker 2: here's what you're not seeing about that. And so my

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Speaker 2: dad does that. My mom has at times, and I

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Speaker 2: try to be really careful and really discerning with everything

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Speaker 2: I say. But my mom has at times been like,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I don't think that this was the

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Speaker 2: most the best thing that you could have said on

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Speaker 2: social media today about that my brother a few years ago. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So I don't cuss at all, I especially like not publicly.

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Speaker 2: But I think I said something one time, like I

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Speaker 2: don't know, maybe seven years ago. I think I said

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Speaker 2: like bad a or something on Twitter. Uh, now I'm

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Speaker 2: talking about publicly here, okay, And so, and my brother

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Speaker 2: texted me and was like, you don't need to say

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Speaker 2: something like that, like it just doesn't add anything to

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Speaker 2: your argument. And I was like, you're totally right. There's

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Speaker 2: no reason for me to say something like that. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't make me sound smarter and if anything, it could

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Speaker 2: cost someone else to stumble. And so, yeah, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of people in my life who it's not constant

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Speaker 2: criticism by any means, I would say, you know, by

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Speaker 2: and large, it's a lot of like encouragement and you go,

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Speaker 2: and that's awesome. But I definitely have people who are

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Speaker 2: not afraid to say ah, I don't think so I

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Speaker 2: don't think that's right. And obviously I try to preempt

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Speaker 2: those mistakes by going to them and being like, what

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Speaker 2: do you think about this? Should I talk about this?

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Speaker 2: Should I approach this? And I don't always get it right,

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Speaker 2: you know, by any means, but I'm just thankful that

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Speaker 2: I have people who are willing to speak into that.

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Speaker 3: So what do you do?

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Speaker 1: So your dad goes to you, Ali, I think you're

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Speaker 1: wrong in this, You start to agree with them, he

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Speaker 1: redukes you. Do you go back on social media and

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Speaker 1: correct anything?

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Speaker 3: Or do you let it go?

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Speaker 2: Trying to think about the specific instance, I've definitely done that.

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Speaker 2: I have definitely apologized for either my tone or something

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Speaker 2: that I said, And certainly if I ever make a mistake,

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Speaker 2: I always will correct it publicly, And obviously I want

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Speaker 2: to avoid that. No one likes being wrong. Everyone's goal

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Speaker 2: is to be great all the time, and so I

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Speaker 2: try to avoid that as much as I possibly can.

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Speaker 2: But I will always correct the record if I say

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Speaker 2: something wrong, or if I misrepresented something, or if I

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Speaker 2: unfairly criticize someone. And I can't even think about like

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Speaker 2: a specific instance because I try not to do that,

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Speaker 2: but I have. I've definitely gone back. I actually just

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Speaker 2: had to correct the record on something today. It was

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Speaker 2: something my guest said, not something I said, but she

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Speaker 2: kind of threw someone under the bus, and it was

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Speaker 2: it ended up being the wrong person. It's a little

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Speaker 2: hard sometimes with the guests too, because I can't always

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Speaker 2: fact check them in the moment. But yes, I because

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Speaker 2: you know, I want people to be able to trust

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Speaker 2: the show, and so being able to take that feedback

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Speaker 2: is important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, where do you think the show goes? Do you

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Speaker 1: think it continues to grow like it's growing now? Do

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Speaker 1: you think it reaches a level where you say, you

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Speaker 1: know what?

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Speaker 3: I think that's enough.

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Speaker 2: Hmmm. I'm trying to decide what I want to like,

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Speaker 2: what I want to say publicly, but to be candid,

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Speaker 2: I don't see the show lasting forever. I love it,

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Speaker 2: but I have we have some other my husband and

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Speaker 2: I have some other ideas too. In addition, right, I

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Speaker 2: have no by the way, like I have no plans

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Speaker 2: to quit the show like that is not on the timeline.

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 2: I truly love what I do, and I love talking

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Speaker 2: and all of that. So I plan unrelatable lasting but

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Speaker 2: talking long term and the next like ten to fifteen years.

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Speaker 2: I don't see myself going into a studio and having

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Speaker 2: a four times a week show. I just I just

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Speaker 2: don't I don't know what exactly it looks like. I

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Speaker 2: don't see us quitting all of this all together there,

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Speaker 2: But we have some other ideas for some other projects

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Speaker 2: that hopefully continue to influence Christians to think about the

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Speaker 2: things that matter, but does not rely on my daily voice.

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Speaker 2: If that makes sense. So that's that's what I'll say.

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Speaker 3: It makes total sense.

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Speaker 1: I won't push you on that because I understand that

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Speaker 1: we live in such an interesting time where legacy media

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Speaker 1: doesn't dominate the consumption of the people.

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Speaker 3: So there, I would say that because there are.

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Speaker 1: Arguably probably say millions of people that rely on you

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Speaker 1: for their consumption of news and politics and Christian world order.

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Speaker 1: It's it's crazy, And this wouldn't have happened ten years ago.

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Speaker 1: You wouldn't have you wouldn't have had this opportunity ten

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Speaker 1: years ago. It's changed so much, and you have. You've

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Speaker 1: really challenged me, actually, because because it's hard for me

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Speaker 1: to You've challenged me that as a Christian, I need

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Speaker 1: to be in politics at some level. I can't completely

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Speaker 1: avoid it. Yeah, and I think to myself, how do

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Speaker 1: I keep up with it though, like how would I

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Speaker 1: keep informed about it? And so where do you get

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Speaker 1: your information? Where are you informed to then give your

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Speaker 1: Christian worldview about it?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think there are different places you would go

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Speaker 2: a pastor versus a podcaster, And obviously you have a

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Speaker 2: podcast too, but it's not primarily focused on politics. I

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Speaker 2: don't think that a pastor and I know you agree

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Speaker 2: with this, needs to talk about the news every week

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Speaker 2: from the pulpit, or even needs to know everything that's

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Speaker 2: going on in the twenty four hour news cycle. I

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Speaker 2: would say that a pastor needs to know about policy

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Speaker 2: and particular policy that is going to affect his congregants

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Speaker 2: and his flock. And I think that pastors in general

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Speaker 2: probably need to do a better job of paying attention

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Speaker 2: to always saying preaching about, but paying attention to local policy,

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Speaker 2: especially any kind of local policy that has an effect

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Speaker 2: on their congregants and their congregants children. Like personally, I

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Speaker 2: would love to see, like say, there was a local

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Speaker 2: school where a bunch of parents in the congregation were

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Speaker 2: sending their kids and there was I don't know, some

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Speaker 2: kind of measure that was being pushed forward that would

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Speaker 2: allow boys into girls' bathrooms, or maybe it's the promotion

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Speaker 2: of pornographic materials in school. I think it would be

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Speaker 2: completely within the purview of a pastor to speak in

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Speaker 2: to that. And maybe they don't get into the nitty

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Speaker 2: gritty of the policy. Maybe they do, but to ensure

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Speaker 2: that their congregants know the underneath biblical principles of that,

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Speaker 2: like what is the role of the parent, What is

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Speaker 2: the role of the church, What is the role of

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Speaker 2: the civil government, What is the role of the parent

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Speaker 2: When it comes to education, like how should we think

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Speaker 2: about public education versus Christian education? What should we think

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Speaker 2: about gender? What should we think about sexuality? All of

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Speaker 2: those things, they have become political. Unfortunately, it's not that

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Speaker 2: it's not that pastors are becoming political. It is that

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Speaker 2: politics has become very theological and pastors as like you know,

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Speaker 2: the theologians and the shepherds of their flock. Where those

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Speaker 2: two things intersect, especially when there is going to be

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Speaker 2: a tangible impact on their community, I do think have

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Speaker 2: a responsibility to speak up. And I've said before, and

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you agree with this. I might have even

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Speaker 2: said it in our conversation that pastors, if they are

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Speaker 2: preaching faithfully through the Bible. It's only going to take

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Speaker 2: them twenty seven verses into Genesis to get into quote

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Speaker 2: unquote politics, because right there we see that God created

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Speaker 2: as male and female in his image. So we get

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Speaker 2: the sanctity of life, We get the definition of gender

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Speaker 2: and the definition of marriage all in one in the

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Speaker 2: very first chapter of the first book of the Bible.

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Speaker 2: Those are called culture war issues, but those are really

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Speaker 2: creation issues. And so if a pastor is simply preaching

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Speaker 2: the Bible, not talking about so called politics at all,

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Speaker 2: he's going to weigh into those controversial subjects. And pastors

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Speaker 2: who avoid those things, it's not that you're avoiding politics,

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Speaker 2: is that you're avoiding scripture. That's inconvenient, and so I

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Speaker 2: just think I think it's inevitable. There are probably a

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Speaker 2: variety of ways to do it faithfully, but I do

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Speaker 2: think there is a responsibility there.

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Speaker 1: You know, at some point in our lives, things got

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Speaker 1: a lot easier at gee dot com and grangerspent dot

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Speaker 1: com when me and my two brothers switched over to

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Speaker 1: Shopify and let them handle the checkout portion of our website.

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Speaker 1: I know that kind of sounds complicated, but if you're

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Speaker 1: wanting to start a business or start some kind of

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Speaker 1: e commerce marketing company, you need to think about Shopify

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Speaker 1: to handle all your checkout needs, like so many thousands

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Speaker 1: of other companies have done across the world. They handle

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Speaker 1: credit card sales and all other online digital sales and

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Speaker 1: help you concentrate on your creativity so you can concentrate

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Speaker 1: on your product and how the website itself looks. And

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Speaker 1: they deal with the nitty gritty details of the checkout process.

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Speaker 1: So upgrade your business and get the same checkout as

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Speaker 1: we use with Shopify. Sign up for your one dollar

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Speaker 1: per month trial period at shopify dot com slash granger

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Speaker 1: all lowercase. Go to shopify dot com slash granger to

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Speaker 1: upgrade your selling today. Shopify dot com slash Granger.

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Speaker 3: As a reminder, you.

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Speaker 1: Could always get a hold of me on cameo dot

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Speaker 1: com slash granger Smith. It's a great way to get

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Speaker 1: a message a video message from me from anywhere in

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Speaker 1: the world to whoever you want to send it to.

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Speaker 1: You go to cameo dot com slash granger Smith and

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00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 1: you fill out whatever you want me to say. Happy anniversary,

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00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 1: happy birthday. May be a word of encouragement to someone

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Speaker 1: that needs to hear it and that person may be you,

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Speaker 1: and then I'll send you a video message. It's super

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Speaker 1: easy and it's a good gift. I've been doing this

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Speaker 1: for many years now. It's a good gift to someone

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Speaker 1: that is impossible to buy for and you don't know

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00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,400
Speaker 1: what to get them. Once again, go to cameo dot

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Speaker 1: com slash Granger Smith. I got to tell you all

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Speaker 1: about this. Have you heard about yege Fest. It's happening

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Speaker 1: this year May ninth and tenth in Georgetown, Texas at

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Speaker 1: the EEE Farm, So you can come hang out with us. Me,

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Speaker 1: my brothers, my family will all be there. We've got

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Speaker 1: a truck show happening. We've got a mud bog competition,

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Speaker 1: kind of like we did last year, but the new

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Speaker 1: edition this year is a concert by me and my

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Speaker 1: band and my old crew. This is not a tour.

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Speaker 1: This is not me getting back into music. This is

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Speaker 1: one time every year we hope to do a concert

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Speaker 1: for my friends and family, especially Maverick who's never seen

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Speaker 1: me play live before. So come out have a meal

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Speaker 1: with me and my family on Friday night. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to give a little devotional from the Bible, maybe play

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Speaker 1: an acoustic song, or two. This is really a once

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Speaker 1: in a lifetime experience, and if you want to find

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Speaker 1: out more, go to eeye dot com.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right. How do you word it?

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Speaker 3: You say, politics affects policy. Policy affects people.

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Speaker 2: Politics matter because policy matters, because people matter. Politics affects policy,

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Speaker 2: policy affects people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's fantastic.

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Speaker 1: And I need to I need to be better about

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Speaker 1: just being aware because sometimes I watch you and I

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Speaker 1: go she just is always aware of the changing tide of.

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Speaker 2: Even I'm behind I feel like I'm behind it. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if that makes you feel better or worse,

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Speaker 2: but sure you like because I don't even have the

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Speaker 2: daily news show. I've got two interviews a week that

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Speaker 2: I talk about evergreen stuff, theology, whatever, and then too

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Speaker 2: where we try to talk about culture politics, and I

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Speaker 2: never ever ever have time to cover everything that's going on.

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Speaker 2: And honestly, sometimes you just need to ignore the current

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Speaker 2: news cycle because it's gonna fade out and it's really

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Speaker 2: not that important and you just have to have the

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Speaker 2: discernment to.

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Speaker 3: Know, Yeah, you're good. I totally agree.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's let's go to where this kind of all intersects,

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Speaker 1: and that is this book Toxic Empathy with a with

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Speaker 1: across right there at the ex I like that it

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Speaker 1: works really good. Toxic empathy, how progressives exploit Christian compassion.

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Speaker 1: This is a very important discussion. It's a very important book.

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Speaker 1: And this is something that Christians have been talking about

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Speaker 1: for maybe around a decade in a way, the misdefinition

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Speaker 1: of empathy. And in your book, this kind of begins

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Speaker 1: for you in twenty twenty, which it did for.

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Speaker 3: A lot of us.

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Speaker 1: You kind of walked through at the beginning of your book,

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Speaker 1: the George Floyd incident, and I was right there with you.

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Speaker 1: I remember during George Floyd, during the you're watching everyone

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Speaker 1: post the Black Squares and you kind of describe how

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Speaker 1: there's the secular people, then there's Christians, but they're kind

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Speaker 1: of coming together, and it's like, oh.

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Speaker 3: Is this a cool moment of unity?

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Speaker 2: Maybe?

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Speaker 1: I remember my first reaction was and I posted this

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Speaker 1: my first reaction, and I was an idiot for kind

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Speaker 1: of a knee jerk, but I was like, all people matter,

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Speaker 1: you know, And that sounds crazy now because that in

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Speaker 1: itself is it's like equivalent to a racial slur. These days,

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Speaker 1: All people matter and I do remember deleting that and

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Speaker 1: trying to rethink why wait, why, because I've got I

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Speaker 1: got so much hate, And it was before I even

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Speaker 1: knew that that was a thing that was just I

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Speaker 1: remember thinking, I really need to sit with this. And

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Speaker 1: I could see in your book you walking through this yourself,

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Speaker 1: kind of unpacking the implications. Is one thing led to

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Speaker 1: another as we watched it unfold. Fascinating and I love

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Speaker 1: that that's the way you start this book because it

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Speaker 1: takes us on a very important journey that everyone needs

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Speaker 1: to talk about, and that is our empathy of just

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Speaker 1: like a bunch of words have been hijacked, and it's

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Speaker 1: not for our good.

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Speaker 3: You find it at the very beginning.

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Speaker 1: You're saying, the ability to place yourself in another person's shoes,

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Speaker 1: with or without having a similar experience is typically called empathy. Okay,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing inherently wrong with that, But then you say,

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Speaker 1: empathy has been hijacked for the purpose of conforming well

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Speaker 1: intentioned people to particular political agendas. Specifically, it's been co

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Speaker 1: opted by the progressive wing of American society to convince

434
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 1: people that the progressive position is exclusively the one of

435
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 1: kindness and morality. This is where you call it toxic empathy.

436
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: Fascinating stuff you talk about how this you say your

437
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: feeling and my feeling too. No one wants to be

438
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: seen as unempathetic because a person who completely lacks empathy

439
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: may be called a narcissist, and that we're so scared

440
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: of that word, like, oh, man, I don't want to

441
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: be a narcissist, but you say it extorts a real

442
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 1: good desire that most people have, which is to be

443
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: and to be perceived as kind. Right, so then we

444
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: you unpack. But empathy and kindness are not synonymous, and

445
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: neither empathy and compassion. Kindness describes how we treat someone,

446
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: either in word or deed. Compassion means to suffer with

447
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 1: someone who's struggling. Both kindness and compassion are necessary components

448
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: of love, but empathy literally means to be in the

449
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: feelings of another person. Empathy, by itself is neither loving

450
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 1: nor kind It's just an emotion.

451
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 3: Love, on the other.

452
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: Hand, is a conscious choice to seek good for another person.

453
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 3: That's oh, that is so important. It's so important to

454
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 3: be said, and.

455
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: It's you laid it out in such a transparent way,

456
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: So thank you.

457
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 3: For this book, I should say.

458
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, a lot of

459
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 2: people were really confused in twenty twenty, of myself included,

460
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 2: and there is a lot of a lot of grace

461
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: for the kind of back and forth you mentioned, posting

462
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 2: something then deleting it, not really knowing what the right

463
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 2: thing is, not knowing the whole context of like why

464
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,880
Speaker 2: everyone was posting. A lot of people felt that way,

465
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 2: and it was probably only because I was kind of

466
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: plugged into the news and had watched this Black Lives

467
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 2: Matter movement, you know, come to the forefront that I

468
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 2: immediately was a little skeptical and struggled with that because

469
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 2: whenever I see something like a hashtag black Lives Matter,

470
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: I know I can't take that at face value. That

471
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: is an organization that has values that don't align with mine,

472
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 2: and we can get into that a little bit. More So,

473
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 2: when I saw that black square everyone posting it, I

474
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: knew that within that posting was the assumption that George

475
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 2: Floyd was murdered because of his race, and I could

476
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,959
Speaker 2: not get on board with that assumption yet because I

477
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: did not know that no one knew that by the way,

478
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 2: based on the video footage that we saw, which was

479
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 2: very scandalous to say at the time, and when I

480
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: started trying to like push back against it and to say, look,

481
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 2: at least look at the other people over here who

482
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: are being damaged and hurt by the riots and by

483
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 2: the looting that's going on in the name of honoring

484
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: George Floyd. These people are also black. These people are innocent,

485
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: These people are poor. There was this horrible video that

486
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: I remember seeing of a woman who she lived in

487
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: this town, maybe it was in Kenosha, I don't remember

488
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 2: which town it was that ended up burning down the

489
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 2: stores being looted. She was like, I can't even go

490
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 2: get my prescription medicine right now. This is like an

491
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: older black lady who is just crying because her town

492
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: and where she earns her livelihood and where she gets

493
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: her necessities has been ransacked by these people who were

494
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 2: rioting in the name of racial justice. And when I

495
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 2: tried to say, look, there are other people on the

496
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 2: side of this moral equation that we shouldn't ignore, the

497
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: thing that I heard over and over again was you're

498
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 2: not showing empathy, you're not having empathy. And of course

499
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: what they meant was is that I'm not putting all

500
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 2: my empathy in the direction that they want it to.

501
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: My empathy isn't going the way that they want it

502
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 2: to go. I'm supposed to apparently ignore the people over here,

503
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 2: ignore the facts, ignore the unanswered questions, and just unconditionally

504
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: support a cause because that is the empathetic way. I

505
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 2: was even told by some Christians that right now the

506
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: truth doesn't matter because we should just show empathy. So

507
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: that's really what started, you know, getting me to think

508
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: about things like, Okay, they're using empathy as a synonym

509
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: for love, but is it really loving to lie to someone?

510
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 2: Like if someone says I think all police officers are racist,

511
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: I think America is systemically racist from the core, that

512
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 2: everyone who is not white is disadvantaged, that we have

513
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,719
Speaker 2: endemic white privilege, that the church is inherently white supremacist,

514
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 2: all this stuff. Someone believes that, Is it really loving

515
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 2: of me to affirm it? If I know that the

516
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: facts don't bear that out, and if I know that

517
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 2: that's not even a biblical definition of justice to lump

518
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: everyone in, you know, into a guilty category because of

519
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: their lack of melanin, is it really loving for me?

520
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: And the name of empathy to say, yeah, yeah, I

521
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 2: know you feel that way, and you are right about that,

522
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 2: and I am here with you. To me, that would

523
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: be like if my daughter, you know, three years old,

524
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 2: said there's a monster in the corner of her room.

525
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: I know it's a pile of clothes, but I say,

526
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: you should be scared. That is a monster and it's

527
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: gonna come get you. That's not loving. The loving thing

528
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: for me to do would be to turn the light

529
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 2: on now, not rudely, not aggressively, not discounting her feelings,

530
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: but saying, I love you so much, you're protected, you're safe.

531
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: Look at what this really is. And I know it's

532
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: a bit more complex and layered when we're talking about

533
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: all of these you know, racial issues in the United States,

534
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: which America has had. But that was what I wrestled

535
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: with so much in that summer of twenty twenty and

536
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: why what I tried to kind of like push back against.

537
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: And that is where this like when I realized, Wow,

538
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 2: this empathy, this being in one particular side feelings, one

539
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 2: purported victim's feelings and ignoring everything else, really is deluding

540
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 2: a lot of people and messing up their perception of

541
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 2: truth and justice and love and goodness, and then I

542
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: saw how it manifests itself in abortion and gender in

543
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: marriage and all of these other issues too, and that

544
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: was kind of the basis of my book.

545
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: It's it's fascinating because I've used that illustration similar with

546
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: my son Maverick, who's three me.

547
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: You have.

548
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: And when I'm talking to men that say they're they're

549
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: weak in their faith, or they've lost their faith, or

550
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: they they don't have a faith, I try to I

551
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: think of it in terms of if faith, having faith

552
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: would be to trust someone, then you could only trust

553
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: someone as far as you know them. And as God

554
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: has revealed himself through his word, we could learn to

555
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: trust him by learning more and more who he is

556
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: through his word. And I say, Maverick could be in

557
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: his room seeing shadows in the corner, and he could

558
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: call for me because he's scared, he's terrified. But all

559
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: I have to do is walk in there and say

560
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: I'm right here, it's okay. And he believes me because

561
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: he knows me, because he trusts me. And so many

562
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: times we could be scared of these these dark shadows,

563
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: and that would only be because we don't know who

564
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: is with us?

565
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: Right?

566
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 3: You took a huge step.

567
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: I believe you took a huge step with this book

568
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: because I open it up and I'm thinking, you know,

569
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: I'm wondering how you're going to lay this out. You

570
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: open it up to the contents, and it's like, oh,

571
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: this is all it says in the contents page introduction.

572
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: Lie number one, abortion is healthcare, Lie number two, trans

573
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: women or women, Lie number three, Love is love, Lie

574
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: number four, No human is illegal, Line number five, social

575
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: justice is justice.

576
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: Conclusion. That's it. That's the book.

577
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, man, she came with a sword.

578
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you're not messing around. It's just five lives

579
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: and you unpack each other. You knew when you I

580
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: bet when the box came to your house and you

581
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: got this. You pulled this book out for the first time.

582
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: You must have been full of joy and at the

583
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: same time knowing the weight of what was going to

584
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: happen when this went out, because you're coming with a sword.

585
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: How how have you felt now that it's been for

586
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: five six months since it's been out. How have you

587
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: felt with the reaction? Are you cautious about reading some

588
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: of the reviews knowing that they're coming after you.

589
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 3: Are you so confident?

590
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: Uh, let's see. I honestly, I didn't really. I didn't

591
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: think about it like that. I didn't think, oh my gosh,

592
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 2: this is going to make such a huge impact and

593
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 2: so many people are going to be mad about this.

594
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: I knew that it was a possibility that the usual

595
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: suspects would be mad. Obviously, I knew progressives would not

596
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: like it. I actually the parts that I thought would

597
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: be a lot more controversial haven't really, as far as

598
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 2: I know, landed anywhere. Like, for example, my whole chapter

599
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: about same sex so called marriage or same sex unions

600
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 2: and why I really think Oberga Fell was the wrong decision.

601
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: I thought that that would make a bigger splash. My

602
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: social justice chapter where I say some very inconvenient facts

603
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: about crime and prison in the United States. I thought

604
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: that would be the thing that kind of ruffles some feathers.

605
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: But really what made people the angriest is just the title,

606
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: and I was not expecting that that people even though

607
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: the subtitle explains what I'm talking about that I'm not

608
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: saying that every form of empathy is toxic and that

609
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: all manifestations of empathy are toxic. That's you know, I

610
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: address that in the very introduction, but even the subtitle

611
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: that says how progressives exploit Christian compassion, that is what

612
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 2: I'm talking about, That this is a form of empathy

613
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 2: that has been hijacked and manipulated. Not that all empathy

614
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 2: is in itself toxic, but people have taken the title

615
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 2: and have said, you know, David French just put an

616
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 2: article out in the New York Times that you know,

617
00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 2: people like Alibeth Stucky are against empathy and they're against

618
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: anyone using their empathy to think through issues, and all

619
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 2: kinds of people who just touch that title yes and

620
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: just say, oh, you know, she doesn't have any empathy.

621
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 2: She's against all empathy. People shouldn't have empathy for her

622
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 2: because she doesn't have empathy for anyone. I'm surprised at

623
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: how much conversation and dialogue and heated debate the title alone,

624
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: cause I'm thankful for it. I mean, every author wants

625
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: the title of their book to become kind of like

626
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 2: part of the lexicon and part of the dialogue. I

627
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: wish some of the people misrepresenting it would actually read

628
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 2: the book, even if they disagree, Like I'm fine with

629
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: the review from someone who says I didn't like it

630
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 2: because of X y Z, but read it, read it

631
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 2: beyond the first two words, but a lot of the

632
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: misrepresentations just aren't truthful. To answer your question, I don't

633
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 2: really read the I don't read the negative reviews.

634
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: I just don't.

635
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think that there's any like good

636
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: re too.

637
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: Honestly, you can't, and I don't think anybody would advise

638
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: you to it. It's not sustainable. I don't think we're

639
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: built to sit there and read random criticism from people

640
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: that we are so far disconnected with. We have no

641
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: idea who they are, where they live, or what their

642
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: worldview is.

643
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 3: We have no idea. It wouldn't be healthy at all.

644
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: It's fairly healthy to hear criticism from someone at the

645
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 1: grocery store in the right behind you in line, much

646
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 1: less someone that's in a different country that the English

647
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: is not even their first language.

648
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 3: So I was going, That's where I was going.

649
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: I was wondering, if you kind of what precautions you

650
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: put up for yourself to protect yourself.

651
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 3: I actually looked.

652
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: This morning and went through your Instagram from the last

653
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: couple of months, and I found one time that you

654
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: commented on one of your posts to someone else and

655
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: so that you could correct me if I'm wrong, But

656
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: I thought, I bet you she doesn't go back and

657
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: look and read through to protect yourself, which would be wise.

658
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: Yes, I try not to. Now there are times when

659
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: I have, and I was way worse about that when

660
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: I first started, like when I was just posting on

661
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: a blog, and like, I just think about that time wasted.

662
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: People need to remember that your time can either be

663
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 2: an expense or an investment, just like your finances. You

664
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: can either just spend it and waste it, or you

665
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 2: can get a return on it. And all of the

666
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: times that I have spent reading through comments and just

667
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 2: getting riled up about it is wasted time. It's really,

668
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: it's not redemptive time at all. Those are not seeds

669
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 2: that you know I've planned that will bloom an eternity.

670
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: That is like anxiety and worry and fear wasted. And

671
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 2: so you're right. I don't typically do that. And it's

672
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: not even just for that to protect my own piece.

673
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: It's because it's hard for me to have self control

674
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: when I want to respond to people, because I want

675
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: to match their sassiness. I want to be rude back

676
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 2: to them. I want to insult them back, and so

677
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: it you know, I mean, it inspire sin and so

678
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: I just don't. I just try not to. But I'll

679
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 2: tell you also like a little story, and this is

680
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 2: all part of the apparatus of trying to protect that.

681
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: My friend the other day, I actually don't really like

682
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: love it when this happens. But I had a friend

683
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: and you know, well meaning sent me something saying like,

684
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: did you see this like podcast that these two people

685
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 2: did about you, talking about you misrepresenting you? And I

686
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: was like, no, I didn't see that. And so I

687
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: whipped at my husband and I was like, hey, did

688
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: you see this? And he was like, oh, yeah, I

689
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: listened to it yesterday. He was like I wanted to

690
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,479
Speaker 2: listen to it just to see like if they said

691
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 2: anything or you know, if there was any like response

692
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 2: to you. It was fine, They're just stupid and don't

693
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: worry about it. And so that like I feel very

694
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 2: covered and like protected that. My husband is like fielding

695
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: a lot of that criticism. He's not responding to them,

696
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: but he's can out and I don't feel like if

697
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: he doesn't feel like there's a threat. That's the only

698
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 2: thing I'm worried about. Is there a threat to my kids?

699
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: Is there a threat to us? Is there some like

700
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 2: crazy lie going on out there? And I feel that

701
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: he is looking out for that, and if he's doing that,

702
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 2: then I don't need to worry about it at all.

703
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, amen, that's great. I do feel like Amber covers

704
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: a lot for me as well. In a similar way.

705
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: I'll see something really negative or something that's kind of

706
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: growing virally about me, and Amber will always be like, oh, yeah, yeah.

707
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: I saw it.

708
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna say anything about it, you know, so

709
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: Cheryl catch it before I do. And then does that

710
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: ever come up in the church? Are you pastored in

711
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: that way? Do you ever have an elder coming? And

712
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: is that ever a discussion through your husband?

713
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 2: Okay, well there was. I can think of a couple instances,

714
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 2: and maybe there's been more over the years. But when

715
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 2: last year, a couple of years ago, I was duly

716
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: catching a lot of heat, all these all of a sudden,

717
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:04,720
Speaker 2: these like or it seems like all of a sudden

718
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: to me. These critics came out being like she's an

719
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 2: undercover feminist because she has a podcast and women shouldn't

720
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: be podcasting, they shouldn't be talking about cultural issues at all.

721
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 2: And all of a sudden, it seems like there was

722
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: just this growing group of people who I would have thought, Okay,

723
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: we're on the same team, we're both Christian conservatives, being like,

724
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: no one should listen to her simply because she's a woman.

725
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: This is a culture war. Women shouldn't be fighting battles.

726
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,439
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I'm just talking. This is I mean,

727
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 2: it's a metaphor, this is not literal battle. I agree

728
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: women shouldn't be in combat, but we're talking here and so,

729
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: but that was very stressful because it wasn't just progressive

730
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 2: as being like, oh, she's pro life or something, because

731
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 2: I understand those people have a different worldview. It's people

732
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 2: kind of on my team and it and it went

733
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 2: into the personal realm of oh wow, like am I

734
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 2: good mom? Am I good wife? Am I like a

735
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 2: following Ephesians five? Like all of this stuff. It kind

736
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 2: of cut deep as someone who doesn't even believe women

737
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: should be pastors, women should preach. I don't call myself

738
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 2: a feminist. I'm very much a complimentarian. To have these

739
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 2: people who call themselves beyond complimentarian say you know, I'm

740
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: too liberal. That kind of hurt me, and I just

741
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 2: remember my pastor very like kind of subtly, but clearly

742
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 2: and directly. He just you know, came up to my

743
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: husband and me after the sermon one day it was like,

744
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 2: I just want you to know, like, sorry, I'm not

745
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:29,919
Speaker 2: about to cry. I just got something.

746
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 3: I get it.

747
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 2: He just said, you know, I just want you to

748
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 2: know that we are with you, and we believe that

749
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 2: what you are doing and how y'all are organizing your

750
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,959
Speaker 2: life is right and good and we support you one

751
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: hundred percent. He's also very protective of, like our privacy.

752
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: There have been times where he's been like, can I

753
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,720
Speaker 2: like direct people towards your you know, towards your podcast

754
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 2: before the election and stuff, or do you want you

755
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 2: know to be private? But he's been very supportive. And

756
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 2: then when my book came out and some of the

757
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 2: criticism that I got from people like Russell Moore and

758
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 2: David French and all of that was out there, the

759
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: executive pastor also kind of had a conversation with my

760
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 2: husband and me after service one day and was like,

761
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 2: I read your book. I think it's brave it's good,

762
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: it's biblical. Thank you for writing it, and that like

763
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: coming from your pastors, it just means a lot. It

764
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: means a lot, and so you just feel very protected

765
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: on a variety of fronts family church, and again that

766
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 2: insulates you from a lot, a lot of the craziness

767
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 2: and just the exhaustion that comes with the whole news

768
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: and politics world.

769
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 3: That is so encouraging to hear.

770
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: It sounds like you have a very faithful church, and

771
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: I you know, to come full circle in this conversation,

772
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: why it is so important for everybody, not just a

773
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 1: famous podcaster like yourself, but for anybody to be surrounded

774
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: by wise counsel, to be under expositional teaching, to be

775
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,720
Speaker 1: under a in the body of a group of believers

776
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: that are holding each other accountable in all the different aspects.

777
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 1: I mean you, you, as a member of your church,

778
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: are different than the person sitting right down the aisle.

779
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: But that's how a body is. That eye is different.

780
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 3: Than the hand.

781
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: And and so to hear that you're pastored well, to

782
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: hear that your husband is your your business manager, that

783
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:33,439
Speaker 1: your kids travel with you, so encouraging and inspiring and

784
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,720
Speaker 1: evident in the boldness and the truthfulness that you speak

785
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 1: with in your program and all in your social media.

786
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: Knowing that that's grounded on a a team of people

787
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: that love you is encouraging to know that you're in

788
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: good hands.

789
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I appreciate that so much. And I

790
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: also all of this gives me a lot of freedom.

791
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 2: I think what also makes me feel bold is that

792
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 2: I truly feel like if at any point I was like,

793
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: I don't want to do this anymore, I don't want

794
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 2: to do this, then I totally could. I don't feel

795
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 2: any pressure from my husband or anyone to like keep going.

796
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: And he has always told me he wants he wants

797
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: to do this one. We love working together, we love

798
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 2: building things together. But he's always said, it's the love

799
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: for what I do goes beyond being willing to do

800
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 2: it for free, like I would pay to do it.

801
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 2: That's what he's always said, like he would pay to

802
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: do what you do. And he's always just wanted to

803
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: support that as much as possible. But he has always said,

804
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 2: if you don't want to do that at any point,

805
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 2: don't stop. We'll figure it out. And that, I mean,

806
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: there's just so much freedom in that and beauty in

807
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 2: that too. So yes, I'm very very grateful.

808
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're holding it with an open hand. And the

809
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: minute you start closing that fist around it, you're going

810
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: to chase things harder, You're going to dig deeper, you're

811
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: going to be try to be more controversial than you

812
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: need to be. Yeah, And so the fact that you're

813
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: holding it loosely is I believe biblical and and and

814
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: that's why I believe you're as happy as you are

815
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: because you just seem with all the things going on,

816
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: you could easily be jaded and depressed and you know, frazzled,

817
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: and you just you kind of just always seem level

818
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: and that's encouraging. Let me ask you, did you did

819
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 1: you have a radical conversion or do you Are you

820
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 1: one of those that just you grew up in a

821
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: Christian home and you you can't remember a time when

822
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: you're not you're not a Christian.

823
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. I would not call it a radical conversion, and

824
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 2: I was definitely raised in a Christian home. Very thankful

825
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 2: for that. I will say that there was some back tracking,

826
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 2: if you would even call it that. I want to

827
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: be as accurate as possible, but there was a time

828
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 2: in college and a little bit after and I write

829
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: about this in my first book, where I just decided

830
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: that I wanted to see what the party life was about.

831
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 2: And it was very stupid and even though you know,

832
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 2: some people would laugh like, oh, that's what everyone does

833
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 2: in college, and yeah, that's you know, what college students

834
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 2: should do, at least it was isolated to that. I

835
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 2: don't think of it like that. I don't think of

836
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 2: that period of time in my life when I was

837
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 2: twenty one twenty two and I decided to party and

838
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: rely on like unhealthy relationships for attention as just like

839
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 2: this trivial time. I see it as time wasted. I

840
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: don't beat myself up about it every day, because I'm

841
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 2: thankful for the grace of God and how He's redeemed

842
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,439
Speaker 2: me and all of that. But what makes me sad

843
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 2: about it is that I knew better and I still

844
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: decided to go down that path. I ended up developing

845
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: an eating disorder that ended up God ended up using

846
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 2: that to actually like bring me back because a biblical

847
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 2: counselor spoke truth into my life because of that addiction

848
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 2: that I had. But I just I really see that

849
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 2: period of like just sin and rebellion in my life,

850
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,240
Speaker 2: with a lot of like, with a lot of sadness,

851
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: a lot of gratitude for God for just being so

852
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 2: gracious and bringing me back and just being as forgiving

853
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 2: and kind as he is. But I think I think

854
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: it's good. I'm glad I feel sad about that time.

855
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: I think we should always feel sad about sin. I

856
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 2: think we should always feel that grief about it. And

857
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: it also has given me a lot of I hope,

858
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: wisdom to be able to equip my daughters for whenever,

859
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 2: you know, whatever they go out into the world and

860
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 2: whatever that looks like. It's so easy to trivialize sin

861
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 2: when you're young. It's not trivial. Like sin is never trivial.

862
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 2: It's never trivial. That's what I want to tell people.

863
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 2: It's ver small and so yeah, I don't know if

864
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 2: I would call that a radical conversion. But I also

865
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: can't say that it was a straight line from A

866
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 2: to b if a testimony, ever, is a straight line

867
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: from A to B. Yeah, And you know, God works

868
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: all things together for our good and his glory, and

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00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 2: even that part of my life he has and will.

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00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 2: But yes, there was that period of just turning my

871
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 2: back on things in college that i'm yeah, still sad about.

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00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good because a small view of sin is

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00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 1: always a result of a small view of God and

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00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: your sans these is always a big view of God

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00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: and so on.

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00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 3: Behalf of so many.

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00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: I say thank you and I'm honored that you spent

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00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: some of your valuable time with me on the pod today.

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00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you. Great talking with you again.

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00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

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00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 2: Yes, it was a joy to talk to you. Thank

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00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 2: you so much for having me.

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00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: Of course, thanks for joining me on the Grangersmith podcast.

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00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: I appreciate all of you.

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00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 3: Guys.

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00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: You could help me out by rating this podcast on iTunes.

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00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: If you're on YouTube, subscribe to this channel, hit that

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00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 1: little like button and notification spell so that you never

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00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: miss anytime I upload a video. Yigi