Speaker 1: I feel like all the products, all the apps, everything
Speaker 1: is marketing itself is good for your mental health, Like
Speaker 1: the coloring apps, right, matching games. I'm like, this game
Speaker 1: is against a timer? How is this relaxing and good
Speaker 1: for mental health?
Speaker 2: All it's doing is raising my anxiety. Well, since the
Speaker 2: pandemic started in twenty twenty, it seems like there's been
Speaker 2: a huge ramp up in things that are associated with
Speaker 2: improving your mental health.
Speaker 1: It's just like how things say all natural, Like what
Speaker 1: are the qualifications for this?
Speaker 2: Right? Organic? M that ain't organic? They spelled organic with
Speaker 2: a K.
Speaker 1: Well, it's mental health awareness myth, and I think we
Speaker 1: should get to the bottom of it. Iron Tt and
Speaker 1: I'm Zachiah and from Spotify. This is Dope Labs. Welcome
Speaker 1: to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science,
Speaker 1: pop culture, and a healthy dosa friendship. May is National
Speaker 1: Mental Health Awareness Month, and we have never shied away
Speaker 1: from talking about mental health on Dope Labs. We've talked
Speaker 1: about harnessing the power of our anxiety in Lab thirty
Speaker 1: eight So Anxious with doctor Wendy Suzuki, and in Lab
Speaker 1: thirty two Life Avalanche, we talked about the Danger of
Speaker 1: Burnout with doctor Ann Helen Peterson. This week we're talking
Speaker 1: about art therapy specifically. We really wanted to know more
Speaker 1: about the process that takes place between the therapists and
Speaker 1: the patient and what's happening inside our brains when we
Speaker 1: engage with art, and how we can harness the tools
Speaker 1: of art for healing.
Speaker 3: So let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 2: Okay, So what do we know?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 1: I think we know already that mental health is important.
Speaker 1: We just had an episode recently talking about the connection
Speaker 1: between the mind and the body, and we also know
Speaker 1: that therapy is a really helpful tool for a lot
Speaker 1: of people.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And then I think also we know our surroundings, our
Speaker 1: environment can affect our mood and our emotional state, you know.
Speaker 1: So not just am I in a place that smells good?
Speaker 1: Am I in the place that looks good? Am I
Speaker 1: in a place that makes me feel calm? We have
Speaker 1: multiple inputs for our state of being. So things we see,
Speaker 1: like art can affect how we feel.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Okay, So what do we want to know?
Speaker 3: I think when we.
Speaker 1: Start to consider art therapy, yes, I understand in the
Speaker 1: literal sense, it's a combination of art and therapy, but
Speaker 1: how exactly is it working?
Speaker 2: Right? And then when we figure out how it works,
Speaker 2: I want to know who it's most helpful for. Is
Speaker 2: it people who are more artistically inclined that art therapy
Speaker 2: will help or is it everybody? No matter what, at
Speaker 2: any art level, you can use art as therapy.
Speaker 3: That's a good question.
Speaker 1: And then also if you are using arts therapy, what
Speaker 1: is happening in your brain?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: I want to know how it's working, what part of
Speaker 1: the brain is activated you.
Speaker 2: My friend always wants to know that biology. That's a
Speaker 2: very good question, and so me, I want to know
Speaker 2: if the type of art you're engaging with have different effects,
Speaker 2: Like does painting do something different for you than pottery?
Speaker 3: Would you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you talked about my biology, but it feels like
Speaker 1: you're going into materials material.
Speaker 2: Science, Like yes, those nice smooth pastels. That seems very calmon.
Speaker 1: And I think it would be great to define the
Speaker 1: parameters of art therapy because I see a lot of
Speaker 1: things getting swept under that broad term. So like those
Speaker 1: apps where you paint by number, is that art therapy?
Speaker 3: Like those coloring books?
Speaker 2: That's a very good question.
Speaker 3: I think we're ready to jump into the dissection.
Speaker 2: Our guest for today's lab is Professor Juliette King.
Speaker 4: I'm Juliette King.
Speaker 5: I'm an associate professor of Art Therapy at the George
Speaker 5: Washington University, and I'm an adjunct associate professor of neurology
Speaker 5: at the Indiana University School of Medicine.
Speaker 1: Professor King is pursuing a PhD in Translational health sciences.
Speaker 1: Her research is focused on using neuroscience and art therapy
Speaker 1: to treat psychological trauma.
Speaker 2: She also wrote a book on these issues. It's called
Speaker 2: Art Therapy, Trauma and Neuroscience Theoretical and Practical Perspectives.
Speaker 1: Okay, so before we dive into art therapy specifically, we
Speaker 1: want to be clear. Art therapy is one of many
Speaker 1: different kinds of therapeutic practices out there.
Speaker 2: Right when it comes to therapy, there's no one size
Speaker 2: fits all approach. What works for you may not work
Speaker 2: for me, and vice versa. So let's jump in to
Speaker 2: figure out exactly what art therapy is.
Speaker 5: I love to answer this question by defining what I
Speaker 5: say is a continuum, and so on one end of
Speaker 5: the continuum we might call therapeutic arts where but cellist
Speaker 5: is playing on a cancer unit and hearing the music
Speaker 5: might help people feel better, more calm. Or if you're
Speaker 5: walking down the halls of the school and the walls
Speaker 5: are gray and cinder block as opposed to painted by
Speaker 5: an artist in residence with colors and movement, then you're
Speaker 5: going to feel differently walking down those halls.
Speaker 1: So Professor King is saying that art is inherently therapeutic,
Speaker 1: and that makes sense to me.
Speaker 3: You know, we love oh, yes, the arts.
Speaker 2: Yes, me and my friend we love to walk through
Speaker 2: a museum together. They're usually really quiet, so it's a
Speaker 2: really good time to just, you know, sit down, look
Speaker 2: at really beautiful art.
Speaker 1: We went to MIA, the Minneapolis Institute of Art, so
Speaker 1: when we travel we try to find museums around us.
Speaker 2: That's so true. Got us in the right mood for
Speaker 2: that show.
Speaker 1: Yes, And I also feel like even when you see
Speaker 1: other art, it can stimulate your own creativity.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So, on one side of the continuum we have therapeutic arts,
Speaker 2: and on the other end we have art therapy. And
Speaker 2: just because something is therapeutic doesn't make it therapy. There's
Speaker 2: a difference. Art therapists has specific training in how they
Speaker 2: provide clinical support.
Speaker 5: Art therapists are trained as talk therapists like psychologists or counselors.
Speaker 5: And also we carry this extra toolbox around where we
Speaker 5: use different art materials and methods to help a person
Speaker 5: express themselves, connect mind, body states, understand a little bit
Speaker 5: more about themselves that they might not have direct conscious
Speaker 5: access to.
Speaker 1: So art therapists use the tools of art making in
Speaker 1: addition to more traditional talk therapy techniques. But how exactly
Speaker 1: do these tools help us connect better to ourselves?
Speaker 2: Says that communicating through art is nothing new. In fact,
Speaker 2: we've been doing this since the beginning of time.
Speaker 1: Art is everywhere and it's a critical part of being
Speaker 1: human and Professor King says that our survival is somewhat
Speaker 1: dependent on our capacity to be creative, to you know,
Speaker 1: look at things from different perspectives.
Speaker 5: We have an innate pool to express ourselves. Think back
Speaker 5: to the cave paintings right where pictures were drawn to
Speaker 5: let the world know what it was that people were
Speaker 5: experiencing at the time.
Speaker 1: Art and art making have existed in various forms across
Speaker 1: cultures throughout our history. Art shows up in religion, record keeping, protests, storytelling.
Speaker 1: It truly is everywhere.
Speaker 2: And when you put it that way, it makes a
Speaker 2: lot of sense that combining the tools of art with
Speaker 2: therapy would be very powerful, especially now that we know
Speaker 2: that art is inherently therapeutic and people are inherently drawn
Speaker 2: to making art.
Speaker 3: So can everyone do art therapy?
Speaker 2: Right? Who is the ideal person? Because I can't draw.
Speaker 5: Everybody has the capacity to engage in the arts. You know,
Speaker 5: my specialty is in visual art therapy, but there are
Speaker 5: many different kinds of expressive therapies and expressive arts. There's dance,
Speaker 5: there's music, there's drama, there's writing, there's poetry, there's play.
Speaker 5: So all of these forms of expressive abilities are inherent
Speaker 5: in all of us.
Speaker 2: Remember that time when we were in grad school and
Speaker 2: we were at your house per use and your mom
Speaker 2: was there and we were line dancing with her in
Speaker 2: your living room.
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Yes, yes, that.
Speaker 2: Was very therapeutic for me. So I could definitely see
Speaker 2: how dance can be therapeutic because I was sweating. Your
Speaker 2: mom didn't break a sweat. I was sweating through my clothes.
Speaker 2: Had such a good time, And in.
Speaker 4: Fact, these capacities are really.
Speaker 5: Healthy and important for us, especially in times where we
Speaker 5: deal with such stress, isolation trauma.
Speaker 1: Professor King told us that anyone who's seeking therapy can
Speaker 1: try art therapy and you don't need to have any
Speaker 1: artistic skills at all.
Speaker 2: That's perfect for me.
Speaker 5: A lot of people think that they're not creative, so
Speaker 5: they don't want to draw, or I can't draw, I
Speaker 5: draw stick figures, you know, and that's very common. And
Speaker 5: one of the fun things about it sometimes is that
Speaker 5: you learn new things about yourself and new talents that
Speaker 5: you have that you may not have realized before.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of reasons to go to therapy,
Speaker 1: whether it's processing or healing from a specific experience, or
Speaker 1: if it's even part of just maintaining your overall mental health.
Speaker 2: Professor King mentioned earlier, it's important to remember that our
Speaker 2: therapy takes place within the therapeutic context and therapeutic relationship
Speaker 2: between the patient and therapist.
Speaker 5: The work of psychotherapy takes place between the therapist and
Speaker 5: the client, and there's a triangular relationship with our therapy
Speaker 5: in that the art making process and what the person
Speaker 5: makes is really a central part of that. So we
Speaker 5: can understand that within the relationship with the therapist, we
Speaker 5: have the capacities to rebuild fractured attachment patterns. We have
Speaker 5: the capacity to facilitate emotional regulation. A lot of times
Speaker 5: the people that we see in the clinical context are disregulated. Hey, now, pandemic,
Speaker 5: everybody's disregulated.
Speaker 3: That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: Yes, a pandemic is not normal. It has become our
Speaker 2: new normal, but it is not normal. So we are
Speaker 2: all experiencing this collective dysregulation.
Speaker 1: And in previous labs we've learned how disregulation can lead
Speaker 1: to the body's automatic stress response because of the uncertainty
Speaker 1: and anxiety.
Speaker 2: Right, right, that's such a good point, and.
Speaker 3: So that brings us right to the brain.
Speaker 1: Yes, and you know, I want to know more about
Speaker 1: what's happening in our brains when we practice art therapy.
Speaker 2: Well, for starters, Juliette says, it's not happening in just
Speaker 2: one place.
Speaker 5: There's not one targeted area that we would correlate with
Speaker 5: our therapy, but we would correlate artistic activity and creative
Speaker 5: activity with whole brain engagement. The more we learn about
Speaker 5: the brain is that we are a system of functional
Speaker 5: hubs and networks. Very little is connected to a specific
Speaker 5: biological or physiological or anatomical function in the brain. Our
Speaker 5: brain operates in relation to itself. This rests on the
Speaker 5: molecular biological understanding of neuroplasticity, and really it goes back
Speaker 5: to the neuron neurons that fire together, wire together. The
Speaker 5: capacity for neuroplasticity is what allows our brains to change
Speaker 5: and form different pathways throughout the entire lifespan, which is
Speaker 5: really exciting.
Speaker 2: Neuroplasticity means our brains have the capacity to rewire them
Speaker 2: selves and form new connections in response to new information,
Speaker 2: sensory stimuli, and following an injury. This is what's happening
Speaker 2: in your brain when you're learning, and.
Speaker 1: So this potential to change is exciting because you don't
Speaker 1: have to be stuck in your waist and if there's
Speaker 1: something you want to do differently, your brain has the
Speaker 1: capability to do it differently. Now, that might be a
Speaker 1: little bit harder, but once you start walking on that path,
Speaker 1: you just beat it down and it becomes easier. Is
Speaker 1: you're no longer hiking through rough terrain. Right, That's what
Speaker 1: neuroplasticity is. You begin to make a smoother path for
Speaker 1: yourself and eventually it's paved.
Speaker 2: I love this analogy, it's a word.
Speaker 4: So when we're little, those neuroplastic capacities are much greater
Speaker 4: than when we're ninety five. However, what we know about
Speaker 4: the brain is that the capacities for neuroplasticity.
Speaker 5: Span the entire developmental continuum. And what we also know
Speaker 5: about neuroplasticity is the more input we have from sensory, motor,
Speaker 5: visual systems, right, then the more capacities we have to
Speaker 5: change and grow.
Speaker 1: So if more sensory input means more capacity to grow
Speaker 1: and change, then art is giving you more input with
Speaker 1: more opportunity to change how we regulate or do things.
Speaker 3: It seems like I love that.
Speaker 2: With that in mind, it feels like with art the
Speaker 2: possibilities are endless. Yeah, the capacity to change and grow
Speaker 2: is so important because it allows our brains to learn
Speaker 2: new things and make changes. Moving forward and making changes
Speaker 2: in our behavior and thought patterns is essential to healing
Speaker 2: and often a really big part of therapy.
Speaker 1: Absolutely tt So let's take a break and when we
Speaker 1: come back, we'll talk about how art therapy can help
Speaker 1: us find balance during times of stress, the importance of
Speaker 1: nonverbal communication, and how different mediums can be used for healing.
Speaker 2: We're back and we've been talking with Professor Juliette king
Speaker 2: about art therapy. What parts of the brand are stimulated,
Speaker 2: and who exactly is art therapy made for? Is everybody?
Speaker 2: But before we jump back in, let's talk about what
Speaker 2: we're going to be focusing on in next week's lab.
Speaker 1: In next week's lab, we're talking all about games, and
Speaker 1: strangely we somehow come around to the meaning of life.
Speaker 1: We also talk about gamification and tt you tell us
Speaker 1: about one of your recent new favorite games.
Speaker 2: Too, Yes, so check it out to make sure you
Speaker 2: hear about all that. Tea.
Speaker 3: Let's get back to the lab.
Speaker 1: We've been talking about how art therapy can help with
Speaker 1: emotional regulation and finding a balance throughout times of stress.
Speaker 5: How do we understand how to use our art process
Speaker 5: and products and ourselves and that relationship to help with
Speaker 5: emotional regulation and regaining homeostasis.
Speaker 2: Our bodies are constant and lea striving for balance, which
Speaker 2: is essentially what homeostasis is. Stress disrupts balance and can
Speaker 2: lead to dysregulation, like we've been talking about, where it's
Speaker 2: difficult to make decisions because our bodies are stuck in
Speaker 2: a stress response.
Speaker 1: And we've talked about this stress response in some earlier episodes.
Speaker 1: So fight and flight and freeze, and before we can
Speaker 1: understand how to move towards homeostasis, we need to unpack
Speaker 1: how our bodies experience, process, and store trauma.
Speaker 5: The nature traumatic experiences, the nature of disease and distress.
Speaker 5: The nature of stress is such that our systems engage
Speaker 5: in an upheaval, a disruption of homeostasis. Things become out
Speaker 5: of balance. But what we know from science and using
Speaker 5: contemporary neuroimaging such as EEG which measures brain waves or
Speaker 5: functional MRI, which actually is looking at the structures and
Speaker 5: functions and the brains, is that when we experience stress
Speaker 5: adversity than our memory the way that we process that memory,
Speaker 5: it gets stored implicitly, meaning it gets stored at a
Speaker 5: less conscious level, meaning that it gets stored in our body.
Speaker 4: And when memories are stored in our.
Speaker 5: Body, we don't have conscious access to that, and we
Speaker 5: also don't have verbal access.
Speaker 1: You know, I was reading some really interesting things about
Speaker 1: how folks think about memories. It's said that a lot
Speaker 1: of times we consider memories to be these intact accounts
Speaker 1: of what happens, and that they get buried but that's
Speaker 1: not actually how they work. There are restructuring or retelling
Speaker 1: to preserve self right, and so sometimes we just don't
Speaker 1: remember things or we have buried things because we don't
Speaker 1: want to think about them a lot, and we may
Speaker 1: not be able to actually recover a full memory, but
Speaker 1: we may be able to process through some of the
Speaker 1: feelings we had. It's really a complicated thing considering a
Speaker 1: traumatic event, how you cope around that trial, if you're
Speaker 1: even able to cope right, and then what some of
Speaker 1: the effects of those coping mechanisms are. So you may
Speaker 1: have high anxiety for a long time, which we know
Speaker 1: means you may have different hormonal levels, you may have
Speaker 1: different effects of long term stress physically manifesting from a
Speaker 1: psychological event.
Speaker 5: And so what ends up happening also is in the
Speaker 5: recall or re experiencing of a trauma, the talking centers
Speaker 5: of the brain aren't working as actively, and so we
Speaker 5: see from neuroimaging capacities how different parts of the brain
Speaker 5: aren't operating as fluidly as they might, and so that
Speaker 5: too is going to hinder a person's ability to construct
Speaker 5: a story, to tell their memory, to put together a narrative.
Speaker 2: That's really amazing. So the nature of trauma is that
Speaker 2: sometimes we literally can't even talk about it. That's really tough.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that also gets in the way of this
Speaker 5: really important part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex,
Speaker 5: and that's the part of the brain behind our eyes.
Speaker 5: That's how we live our life, our organization, our executive functions. Well,
Speaker 5: when we're experiencing traumatic events, when we're experiencing emotional upheaval,
Speaker 5: then the capacities for our prefrontal cortex to process information,
Speaker 5: to process emotions.
Speaker 4: That also gets steyny.
Speaker 1: And that's something we talked about in the So Anxious
Speaker 1: episode LAP thirty eight with doctor Wendy Suzuki.
Speaker 2: Now that we know that trauma is stored in the body,
Speaker 2: something like art therapy makes a lot of sense. Someone
Speaker 2: might not be able to use words to talk about
Speaker 2: or process their experience, and that could make healing really difficult.
Speaker 1: This makes me think about what Professor King said earlier
Speaker 1: about how art therapy can help people express and understand
Speaker 1: themselves without having conscious access or verbal access to whatever
Speaker 1: they're working through in that therapy.
Speaker 5: Now, we live in a verbal society. We live in
Speaker 5: a society that's saying forget the young conscious whatever, let's
Speaker 5: just stay focused.
Speaker 2: Okay, so exhibit a social media podcast, not this one, though,
Speaker 2: keep listening to dope labs. Everybody is talking about something,
Speaker 2: and talking is a primary way of processing our subconscious
Speaker 2: and the primary mode of communication and talk therapy.
Speaker 5: But a lot of times talking just doesn't cut it.
Speaker 5: We need other methods to help a person feel safe
Speaker 5: enough to understand their situation enough in order to be
Speaker 5: able to engage. Art therapy inherently allows for emotional regulation.
Speaker 1: Professor King told us about the importance of nonverbal communication.
Speaker 1: There's so much we say without using words, which is
Speaker 1: why I know you give me a hard time for it,
Speaker 1: but it's why, hands down, ten times out of ten,
Speaker 1: sometimes eleven, I'm choosing FaceTime for an important conversation.
Speaker 2: That is very true. I know if I hear that
Speaker 2: time tone, I know it's the key. I just know.
Speaker 2: If I can hear coming through microfeedter, I'm like, yes,
Speaker 2: that's my friend.
Speaker 1: But I think that's because so much of how I communicate,
Speaker 1: even though I'm saying a lot of words. You do
Speaker 1: not want these text messages unless you really know me
Speaker 1: and can decide how these things are going you know.
Speaker 2: I totally understand. I understand.
Speaker 5: We use nonverbal communication all the time. That's how we
Speaker 5: come out of the womb when we're born. We experience
Speaker 5: the entire world through our senses. So that really forms
Speaker 5: a strong foundation for how engagement and sensory motor, visual,
Speaker 5: tactile movement. Engaging in these sensory experiences is innately part
Speaker 5: of who we are and innately part of how we
Speaker 5: need to express ourselves. And so this evidence points to
Speaker 5: the value of the non verbal sensory therapies and treatment,
Speaker 5: and in fact and society is the expressive therapy is
Speaker 5: not only as an important treatment, but as crucial when
Speaker 5: it is that we're dealing with a lot of the
Speaker 5: mental health and wellness issues that we deal with today.
Speaker 1: When you look back at it, and I think about
Speaker 1: the things that we've learned in a lot of our
Speaker 1: episodes exploring the brain and unpacking and understanding development. Even
Speaker 1: in that book that I recommend it and tt I
Speaker 1: know you read it, Good Morning Monster.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, yeah, and Oprah's book What Happened to You?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: All of these things make me think about being an
Speaker 1: infant is really traumatizing.
Speaker 3: You have no way to express yourself.
Speaker 1: You're trying to make sense of all these things around us,
Speaker 1: and really our brains don't remember that.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 2: I would imagine being birthed into this new world with
Speaker 2: all these like very foreign things. It's like being dropped
Speaker 2: on another planet with aliens.
Speaker 3: Yes, And then all.
Speaker 2: Of a sudden people are like, all right, develop here,
Speaker 2: eat this, drink this, I'm gonna carry you here, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna put you down there. That's scary. Sometimes I think
Speaker 2: about my dog Daisy, like that Daisy.
Speaker 1: Must be like she's barking. You know, you're trying to
Speaker 1: say things. You're trying to express yourself. Think about how
Speaker 1: much babies babble and make noises, but they're trying to learn. Okay,
Speaker 1: how can I tell this person there's poopin on my backside?
Speaker 3: Help right?
Speaker 2: Like, or they'll be in one direction and then all
Speaker 2: of a sudden they're airborne and they're like, wow, I'm
Speaker 2: flying because somebody picks them up and then moves them
Speaker 2: somewhere else and they're like they're on a mission to
Speaker 2: do something. They're like, oh, I would like to touch
Speaker 2: that thing, and they start moving and all of a
Speaker 2: sudden they're being lifted by a crane, and.
Speaker 3: I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 2: Imagine you walking down the street to the corner store
Speaker 2: and a crane picks you up and drops you in
Speaker 2: another state.
Speaker 3: It's a lot of information to take in.
Speaker 1: For some people, art may not be the magic key
Speaker 1: right right, You may have to add something else. And
Speaker 1: I've been seeing the adoption of a lot of different
Speaker 1: things that to me, I would say, oh, non traditional,
Speaker 1: but they may be rooted in something that I didn't
Speaker 1: know about before.
Speaker 3: Like remember when people were doing.
Speaker 1: Yoga with goats, Yeah, and the goats were jumping on
Speaker 1: their backs mm hmmm h But now what we see
Speaker 1: is animal assistant therapy, so like emotional support animals. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, we're those two things connected? Does one come
Speaker 1: out of the other, right?
Speaker 2: And I mean even when you think about just yoga,
Speaker 2: there was a time where yoga was very new in
Speaker 2: Western culture and folks were very confused by it. And
Speaker 2: now you know there's a yoga studio on every corner.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: There's a whole history of that, and I think what
Speaker 1: we're seeing is that those types of practices were being
Speaker 1: discredited in favor of a much more medical approach to things,
Speaker 1: which is something that we talked about in our last
Speaker 1: two labs about maternal health, when we talked about overall
Speaker 1: wellness and sometimes just needing a more holistic approach. And
Speaker 1: now we're seeing a shift right back to those same
Speaker 1: things that have been working for societies and cultures.
Speaker 3: For many many moves.
Speaker 2: Did you ever see that video of that older woman,
Speaker 2: really old, and she's in like the hospital or something
Speaker 2: like that, and they play Swan Lake or something like
Speaker 2: that and she starts moving.
Speaker 3: M hmm.
Speaker 2: That's what all this reminds me of. I'm like, yes,
Speaker 2: a woman that is practically immobile, but when she hears
Speaker 2: certain music played, it triggers something in her mind that recalls,
Speaker 2: you know, her time as a prima ballerina.
Speaker 1: We've seen music therapy as a great tool, and I
Speaker 1: think people see it being used in classrooms. I've seen
Speaker 1: it for a lot of older adults, especially when you
Speaker 1: start considering, you know, the effects of memory loss.
Speaker 2: One of my middle school science teachers shout out to
Speaker 2: Mss Perico. Every time we had a test, she would
Speaker 2: play Beethoven because she was like, it makes you smarter.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's true, but it was very relaxing,
Speaker 2: and it did like kind of set the tone for
Speaker 2: every single test that we took in her class, where
Speaker 2: it just made you feel calm. It kind of like
Speaker 2: just flipped the switch in your brain where it was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I know this sound. It's time to take a test,
Speaker 2: It's time to focus.
Speaker 1: So some of that is like music cues, and just
Speaker 1: like there are different types of therapy within art therapy,
Speaker 1: there are different types of mediums.
Speaker 2: M we ask Professor King how different mediums can affect
Speaker 2: us differently if we're using art therapy.
Speaker 5: So one of the guiding theories of art therapy, what
Speaker 5: I like to call our primary way of knowing, is
Speaker 5: that media, meaning art materials have different properties. So watercolors
Speaker 5: have different properties that clay does, that pastels do, and
Speaker 5: so the theories go, which have become quite advanced over
Speaker 5: the years, and to look at parallels between different media
Speaker 5: properties and how these properties evoke different levels of expression,
Speaker 5: all of which exists on what we could call a
Speaker 5: hierarchical or developmental continuum. We call that the expressive therapies continuum.
Speaker 4: And we use this.
Speaker 5: Somewhat naturally and innately through our training to understand how
Speaker 5: to develop interventions with specific art materials to effect or
Speaker 5: to address whatever goal it is that we're working on.
Speaker 5: A simple example would be using water colors is likely
Speaker 5: going to evoke more of a sensory experience, more of
Speaker 5: an opening up than building something with tools and wood, right,
Speaker 5: That's going to evoke more of a cognitive higher level
Speaker 5: of thinking.
Speaker 2: That's really interesting, and so my next question is do
Speaker 2: art therapists see a difference from person to person. Does
Speaker 2: everyone respond to the same mediums in the same way.
Speaker 2: So watercolors may open a person up black, Professor King said,
Speaker 2: but maybe not necessarily for another person.
Speaker 4: Therapy is subjective.
Speaker 5: I think a really great example is thinking about those
Speaker 5: coloring books, which ps are not art therapy.
Speaker 4: But some people feel.
Speaker 5: Really calm when they color those intricate designs. Other people
Speaker 5: feel like WHOA, They feel insecure, they feel overwhelmed, it
Speaker 5: raises anxiety or like sends them into an obsessive state.
Speaker 2: Professor King told us that art therapists are really careful
Speaker 2: when using different mediums with patients.
Speaker 5: If we're not careful, opening a person up too much
Speaker 5: can lead to emotional flooding. A person can get overwhelmed
Speaker 5: or overstimulated, there's actually an ethical responsibility that art therapists
Speaker 5: and psychotherapists all have, and if they're not trained, then
Speaker 5: they might not realize how the different materials could open
Speaker 5: a person up too much without knowing how to help
Speaker 5: that person regain a sense of control. And that's very
Speaker 5: important and speaks to the capacities of the trained psychotherapists
Speaker 5: to know when to tap into, when to kind of
Speaker 5: push boundaries, when to foster self expression, as opposed to
Speaker 5: helping a person maybe regulate, calm down, and be able
Speaker 5: to engage in the process. One thing that works for
Speaker 5: one may not work with another, and really bridges and
Speaker 5: points back to the importance of that relationship, the assessment procedures,
Speaker 5: the goals and treatment, getting to know who it is
Speaker 5: that you're working with, which is the driver to any
Speaker 5: kind of psychotherapeutic support.
Speaker 1: You know, I was a little surprised to find out
Speaker 1: that those coloring books are not therapy, because you.
Speaker 3: Know, between coloring things that are already.
Speaker 1: Drawn, drawing my own doodles, doing puzzles, all those things
Speaker 1: feel very calming for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're therapeutic, but not therapy in the sense
Speaker 2: that you're working with a therapist. So for you, puzzles
Speaker 2: are therapeutic, but for me they raise my heart right,
Speaker 2: So I'm not doing puzzles, but that makes me think.
Speaker 2: And we want to know from you all, what types
Speaker 2: of things that are considered art do you interact with
Speaker 2: that make you feel calm, that are therapeutic for you.
Speaker 2: If you look in this app right now, there's a
Speaker 2: poll and you can choose which of the forms of
Speaker 2: art you use to destress.
Speaker 1: Where do you find an art therapist? It's already expensive
Speaker 1: when we talk about just having talk therapy.
Speaker 2: Come on, I've looked at a couple of.
Speaker 1: Different places they're saying like individual sessions or you know,
Speaker 1: in a therapeutic gower, which is like fifty to fifty
Speaker 1: five minutes, and I see costs from one hundred to
Speaker 1: two hundred dollars for each session.
Speaker 2: That's a lot of money. I mean, because imagine you're
Speaker 2: doing it weekly. Yeah, you multiply that by four and
Speaker 2: then multiply that by twelve the numbers are up. That's
Speaker 2: a lot of money.
Speaker 1: And that goes right back into the insurance conversation we
Speaker 1: had in last week's lap.
Speaker 2: Yes about maternal health care.
Speaker 1: That also has an effect on access. Who can access
Speaker 1: these things?
Speaker 2: Yeah, because our therapy may be something that can really
Speaker 2: help you sort through a lot of things. But if
Speaker 2: you can't afford it, then it's just not a resource
Speaker 2: that you can tap into. So then what happens, what
Speaker 2: happens to you and your development, your mental health development.
Speaker 5: So similar to the talk therapy, an art therapist can
Speaker 5: be wherever talk therapist is. Art therapists work in many
Speaker 5: different contexts. On the individual level, at the group level,
Speaker 5: art therapists can work with couples and family therapy. Art
Speaker 5: therapists can be seen in private practice and outpatient treatment
Speaker 5: on inpatient facilities.
Speaker 2: If you are someone you know is experiencing mental health symptoms,
Speaker 2: the best thing you can do is talk to a
Speaker 2: doctor who can work with you to come up with
Speaker 2: a plan that is right for you. You can also
Speaker 2: find resources for mental health support at spotify dot com
Speaker 2: slash resources.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's time for the one thing.
Speaker 2: My one thing this week is an artist and I
Speaker 2: find her art very therapy. It's very calmon and I
Speaker 2: sent it to one of my sisters and she did
Speaker 2: not get it. She was like, what is wrong with you?
Speaker 2: And it's actually fiber art so it's these moving Scott motion,
Speaker 2: felt and wool, and she creates these mini movies where
Speaker 2: she bakes a cake or she'll make breakfast, and it
Speaker 2: is just so detailed and the sounds are just so
Speaker 2: rich at nice. I can watch those videos for hours.
Speaker 2: You can find her on Instagram. Her Instagram name is
Speaker 2: Andrea Animates. What about u Z? What's your one thing?
Speaker 1: There's an artist of visual artists whose work I found
Speaker 1: on Instagram and I just love it. It has a
Speaker 1: calming effect. It has elements that feel like biological in nature.
Speaker 1: So some things look like plants, some things look like
Speaker 1: if you were using TM or SEM to look at
Speaker 1: small biological structures. I feel like I can see those
Speaker 1: types of patterns in the art. Her name is Linda
Speaker 1: Cato and her art is amazing and it has like
Speaker 1: a calming effect for me. That's it for Lab sixty four.
Speaker 1: Have you rethought your relationship with art? I know I
Speaker 1: rethought mind throughout this entire lab. Call us at two
Speaker 1: zero two five, six seven seven zero two eight and
Speaker 1: tell us what you thought, or give us an idea
Speaker 1: for a lab you think we should do this semester.
Speaker 1: We really love hearing from you. That's two zero two
Speaker 1: five six seven seven zero two eight.
Speaker 2: And don't forget that there is so much more to
Speaker 2: dig into on our website. There'll be a cheap cheap
Speaker 2: for today's lab, additional links and resources in the show notes.
Speaker 2: Plus you can sign up for our newsletter check it
Speaker 2: out at Dope labspodcast dot com. Special thanks to today's
Speaker 2: guest expert, Professor Juliette King.
Speaker 1: You can find or follow her on Twitter at Tertiary
Speaker 1: Process and read more of her work in her book
Speaker 1: Art Therapy, Trauma and Neuroscience Theoretical and Practical Perspectives.
Speaker 2: And you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at
Speaker 2: Dope Labs Podcast.
Speaker 1: TT's on Twitter and Instagram at d R Underscore t Sho.
Speaker 2: And you can find Zakiya at z said So. Dope
Speaker 2: Labs is a Spotify original production from Mega Owned Media Group.
Speaker 1: Our producers are Jenny rattlet Mask and Lydia Smith of
Speaker 1: WaveRunner Studios. Our associate producer from Mega Oh Media is
Speaker 1: Brianna Garrett.
Speaker 2: Editing in sound design by Rob Smerciak.
Speaker 3: Mixing by Hannes Brown.
Speaker 2: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex
Speaker 2: Sugier from Spotify, executive producer Corin Gilliard, and creative producer
Speaker 2: Miguel Contreras. Special thanks to Shirley Ramos, Jess Borrison, Yasmine Afifi, Kamu, Elolia,
Speaker 2: Till krat Key and Brian Marquis. Executive producers from Mega
Speaker 2: Own Media Group are us T T Show Dia and Zakiah.
Speaker 1: Wattley oh Man talk about L Right.
Speaker 3: I ever heard you see saying.
Speaker 2: You don't want to hear It's awful?
Speaker 1: No, it's not, it's it's special to me.