1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: I feel like all the products, all the apps, everything 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: is marketing itself is good for your mental health, Like 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: the coloring apps, right, matching games. I'm like, this game 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: is against a timer? How is this relaxing and good 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: for mental health? 6 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: All it's doing is raising my anxiety. Well, since the 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: pandemic started in twenty twenty, it seems like there's been 8 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 2: a huge ramp up in things that are associated with 9 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 2: improving your mental health. 10 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: It's just like how things say all natural, Like what 11 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: are the qualifications for this? 12 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: Right? Organic? M that ain't organic? They spelled organic with 13 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: a K. 14 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: Well, it's mental health awareness myth, and I think we 15 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: should get to the bottom of it. Iron Tt and 16 00:00:39,560 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: I'm Zachiah and from Spotify. This is Dope Labs. Welcome 17 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science, 18 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: pop culture, and a healthy dosa friendship. May is National 19 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: Mental Health Awareness Month, and we have never shied away 20 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,839 Speaker 1: from talking about mental health on Dope Labs. We've talked 21 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: about harnessing the power of our anxiety in Lab thirty 22 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: eight So Anxious with doctor Wendy Suzuki, and in Lab 23 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: thirty two Life Avalanche, we talked about the Danger of 24 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: Burnout with doctor Ann Helen Peterson. This week we're talking 25 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: about art therapy specifically. We really wanted to know more 26 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: about the process that takes place between the therapists and 27 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: the patient and what's happening inside our brains when we 28 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: engage with art, and how we can harness the tools 29 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: of art for healing. 30 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 3: So let's get into the recitation. 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: Okay, So what do we know? 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 4: Well? 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: I think we know already that mental health is important. 34 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: We just had an episode recently talking about the connection 35 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: between the mind and the body, and we also know 36 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: that therapy is a really helpful tool for a lot 37 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: of people. 38 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 39 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 1: And then I think also we know our surroundings, our 40 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: environment can affect our mood and our emotional state, you know. 41 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: So not just am I in a place that smells good? 42 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: Am I in the place that looks good? Am I 43 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: in a place that makes me feel calm? We have 44 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: multiple inputs for our state of being. So things we see, 45 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: like art can affect how we feel. 46 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Okay, So what do we want to know? 47 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: I think when we. 48 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: Start to consider art therapy, yes, I understand in the 49 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: literal sense, it's a combination of art and therapy, but 50 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: how exactly is it working? 51 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: Right? And then when we figure out how it works, 52 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: I want to know who it's most helpful for. Is 53 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: it people who are more artistically inclined that art therapy 54 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: will help or is it everybody? No matter what, at 55 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 2: any art level, you can use art as therapy. 56 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: That's a good question. 57 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: And then also if you are using arts therapy, what 58 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: is happening in your brain? 59 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 4: Right? 60 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: I want to know how it's working, what part of 61 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: the brain is activated you. 62 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: My friend always wants to know that biology. That's a 63 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 2: very good question, and so me, I want to know 64 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 2: if the type of art you're engaging with have different effects, 65 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: Like does painting do something different for you than pottery? 66 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 3: Would you know what I mean? 67 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, you talked about my biology, but it feels like 68 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: you're going into materials material. 69 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: Science, Like yes, those nice smooth pastels. That seems very calmon. 70 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: And I think it would be great to define the 71 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: parameters of art therapy because I see a lot of 72 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: things getting swept under that broad term. So like those 73 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: apps where you paint by number, is that art therapy? 74 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 3: Like those coloring books? 75 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 2: That's a very good question. 76 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 3: I think we're ready to jump into the dissection. 77 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: Our guest for today's lab is Professor Juliette King. 78 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 4: I'm Juliette King. 79 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 5: I'm an associate professor of Art Therapy at the George 80 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 5: Washington University, and I'm an adjunct associate professor of neurology 81 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 5: at the Indiana University School of Medicine. 82 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: Professor King is pursuing a PhD in Translational health sciences. 83 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: Her research is focused on using neuroscience and art therapy 84 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 1: to treat psychological trauma. 85 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,239 Speaker 2: She also wrote a book on these issues. It's called 86 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 2: Art Therapy, Trauma and Neuroscience Theoretical and Practical Perspectives. 87 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: Okay, so before we dive into art therapy specifically, we 88 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,239 Speaker 1: want to be clear. Art therapy is one of many 89 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: different kinds of therapeutic practices out there. 90 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: Right when it comes to therapy, there's no one size 91 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: fits all approach. What works for you may not work 92 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: for me, and vice versa. So let's jump in to 93 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: figure out exactly what art therapy is. 94 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 5: I love to answer this question by defining what I 95 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 5: say is a continuum, and so on one end of 96 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 5: the continuum we might call therapeutic arts where but cellist 97 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 5: is playing on a cancer unit and hearing the music 98 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 5: might help people feel better, more calm. Or if you're 99 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 5: walking down the halls of the school and the walls 100 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 5: are gray and cinder block as opposed to painted by 101 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 5: an artist in residence with colors and movement, then you're 102 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 5: going to feel differently walking down those halls. 103 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: So Professor King is saying that art is inherently therapeutic, 104 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: and that makes sense to me. 105 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 3: You know, we love oh, yes, the arts. 106 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: Yes, me and my friend we love to walk through 107 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 2: a museum together. They're usually really quiet, so it's a 108 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: really good time to just, you know, sit down, look 109 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: at really beautiful art. 110 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: We went to MIA, the Minneapolis Institute of Art, so 111 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: when we travel we try to find museums around us. 112 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: That's so true. Got us in the right mood for 113 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 2: that show. 114 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: Yes, And I also feel like even when you see 115 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: other art, it can stimulate your own creativity. 116 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,679 Speaker 2: Absolutely. So, on one side of the continuum we have therapeutic arts, 117 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 2: and on the other end we have art therapy. And 118 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: just because something is therapeutic doesn't make it therapy. There's 119 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 2: a difference. Art therapists has specific training in how they 120 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 2: provide clinical support. 121 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 5: Art therapists are trained as talk therapists like psychologists or counselors. 122 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 5: And also we carry this extra toolbox around where we 123 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 5: use different art materials and methods to help a person 124 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 5: express themselves, connect mind, body states, understand a little bit 125 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 5: more about themselves that they might not have direct conscious 126 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 5: access to. 127 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: So art therapists use the tools of art making in 128 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: addition to more traditional talk therapy techniques. But how exactly 129 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: do these tools help us connect better to ourselves? 130 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: Says that communicating through art is nothing new. In fact, 131 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: we've been doing this since the beginning of time. 132 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: Art is everywhere and it's a critical part of being 133 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: human and Professor King says that our survival is somewhat 134 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: dependent on our capacity to be creative, to you know, 135 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: look at things from different perspectives. 136 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 5: We have an innate pool to express ourselves. Think back 137 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 5: to the cave paintings right where pictures were drawn to 138 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 5: let the world know what it was that people were 139 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 5: experiencing at the time. 140 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: Art and art making have existed in various forms across 141 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: cultures throughout our history. Art shows up in religion, record keeping, protests, storytelling. 142 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: It truly is everywhere. 143 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: And when you put it that way, it makes a 144 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: lot of sense that combining the tools of art with 145 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 2: therapy would be very powerful, especially now that we know 146 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: that art is inherently therapeutic and people are inherently drawn 147 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 2: to making art. 148 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 3: So can everyone do art therapy? 149 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: Right? Who is the ideal person? Because I can't draw. 150 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 5: Everybody has the capacity to engage in the arts. You know, 151 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 5: my specialty is in visual art therapy, but there are 152 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 5: many different kinds of expressive therapies and expressive arts. There's dance, 153 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 5: there's music, there's drama, there's writing, there's poetry, there's play. 154 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 5: So all of these forms of expressive abilities are inherent 155 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 5: in all of us. 156 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: Remember that time when we were in grad school and 157 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 2: we were at your house per use and your mom 158 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 2: was there and we were line dancing with her in 159 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 2: your living room. 160 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Yes, yes, that. 161 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 2: Was very therapeutic for me. So I could definitely see 162 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 2: how dance can be therapeutic because I was sweating. Your 163 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: mom didn't break a sweat. I was sweating through my clothes. 164 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: Had such a good time, And in. 165 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 4: Fact, these capacities are really. 166 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 5: Healthy and important for us, especially in times where we 167 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 5: deal with such stress, isolation trauma. 168 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: Professor King told us that anyone who's seeking therapy can 169 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: try art therapy and you don't need to have any 170 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: artistic skills at all. 171 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 2: That's perfect for me. 172 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,719 Speaker 5: A lot of people think that they're not creative, so 173 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 5: they don't want to draw, or I can't draw, I 174 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 5: draw stick figures, you know, and that's very common. And 175 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 5: one of the fun things about it sometimes is that 176 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 5: you learn new things about yourself and new talents that 177 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 5: you have that you may not have realized before. 178 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: There are a lot of reasons to go to therapy, 179 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: whether it's processing or healing from a specific experience, or 180 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: if it's even part of just maintaining your overall mental health. 181 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 2: Professor King mentioned earlier, it's important to remember that our 182 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: therapy takes place within the therapeutic context and therapeutic relationship 183 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 2: between the patient and therapist. 184 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 5: The work of psychotherapy takes place between the therapist and 185 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 5: the client, and there's a triangular relationship with our therapy 186 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 5: in that the art making process and what the person 187 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 5: makes is really a central part of that. So we 188 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 5: can understand that within the relationship with the therapist, we 189 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 5: have the capacities to rebuild fractured attachment patterns. We have 190 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 5: the capacity to facilitate emotional regulation. A lot of times 191 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:25,239 Speaker 5: the people that we see in the clinical context are disregulated. Hey, now, pandemic, 192 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 5: everybody's disregulated. 193 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 3: That makes a lot of sense. 194 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 2: Yes, a pandemic is not normal. It has become our 195 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: new normal, but it is not normal. So we are 196 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: all experiencing this collective dysregulation. 197 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: And in previous labs we've learned how disregulation can lead 198 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: to the body's automatic stress response because of the uncertainty 199 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: and anxiety. 200 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 2: Right, right, that's such a good point, and. 201 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 3: So that brings us right to the brain. 202 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: Yes, and you know, I want to know more about 203 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: what's happening in our brains when we practice art therapy. 204 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: Well, for starters, Juliette says, it's not happening in just 205 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 2: one place. 206 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 5: There's not one targeted area that we would correlate with 207 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 5: our therapy, but we would correlate artistic activity and creative 208 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 5: activity with whole brain engagement. The more we learn about 209 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 5: the brain is that we are a system of functional 210 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 5: hubs and networks. Very little is connected to a specific 211 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 5: biological or physiological or anatomical function in the brain. Our 212 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 5: brain operates in relation to itself. This rests on the 213 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 5: molecular biological understanding of neuroplasticity, and really it goes back 214 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 5: to the neuron neurons that fire together, wire together. The 215 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 5: capacity for neuroplasticity is what allows our brains to change 216 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 5: and form different pathways throughout the entire lifespan, which is 217 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 5: really exciting. 218 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 2: Neuroplasticity means our brains have the capacity to rewire them 219 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: selves and form new connections in response to new information, 220 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 2: sensory stimuli, and following an injury. This is what's happening 221 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 2: in your brain when you're learning, and. 222 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: So this potential to change is exciting because you don't 223 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: have to be stuck in your waist and if there's 224 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: something you want to do differently, your brain has the 225 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: capability to do it differently. Now, that might be a 226 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: little bit harder, but once you start walking on that path, 227 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: you just beat it down and it becomes easier. Is 228 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: you're no longer hiking through rough terrain. Right, That's what 229 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: neuroplasticity is. You begin to make a smoother path for 230 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: yourself and eventually it's paved. 231 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: I love this analogy, it's a word. 232 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 4: So when we're little, those neuroplastic capacities are much greater 233 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 4: than when we're ninety five. However, what we know about 234 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 4: the brain is that the capacities for neuroplasticity. 235 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 5: Span the entire developmental continuum. And what we also know 236 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 5: about neuroplasticity is the more input we have from sensory, motor, 237 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 5: visual systems, right, then the more capacities we have to 238 00:12:59,280 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 5: change and grow. 239 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: So if more sensory input means more capacity to grow 240 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: and change, then art is giving you more input with 241 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: more opportunity to change how we regulate or do things. 242 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 3: It seems like I love that. 243 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 2: With that in mind, it feels like with art the 244 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 2: possibilities are endless. Yeah, the capacity to change and grow 245 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 2: is so important because it allows our brains to learn 246 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: new things and make changes. Moving forward and making changes 247 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: in our behavior and thought patterns is essential to healing 248 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 2: and often a really big part of therapy. 249 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: Absolutely tt So let's take a break and when we 250 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: come back, we'll talk about how art therapy can help 251 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: us find balance during times of stress, the importance of 252 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: nonverbal communication, and how different mediums can be used for healing. 253 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: We're back and we've been talking with Professor Juliette king 254 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 2: about art therapy. What parts of the brand are stimulated, 255 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: and who exactly is art therapy made for? Is everybody? 256 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 2: But before we jump back in, let's talk about what 257 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 2: we're going to be focusing on in next week's lab. 258 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: In next week's lab, we're talking all about games, and 259 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: strangely we somehow come around to the meaning of life. 260 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: We also talk about gamification and tt you tell us 261 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: about one of your recent new favorite games. 262 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 2: Too, Yes, so check it out to make sure you 263 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 2: hear about all that. Tea. 264 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 3: Let's get back to the lab. 265 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: We've been talking about how art therapy can help with 266 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: emotional regulation and finding a balance throughout times of stress. 267 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 5: How do we understand how to use our art process 268 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 5: and products and ourselves and that relationship to help with 269 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 5: emotional regulation and regaining homeostasis. 270 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 2: Our bodies are constant and lea striving for balance, which 271 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: is essentially what homeostasis is. Stress disrupts balance and can 272 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 2: lead to dysregulation, like we've been talking about, where it's 273 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: difficult to make decisions because our bodies are stuck in 274 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: a stress response. 275 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: And we've talked about this stress response in some earlier episodes. 276 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: So fight and flight and freeze, and before we can 277 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: understand how to move towards homeostasis, we need to unpack 278 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: how our bodies experience, process, and store trauma. 279 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 5: The nature traumatic experiences, the nature of disease and distress. 280 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 5: The nature of stress is such that our systems engage 281 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 5: in an upheaval, a disruption of homeostasis. Things become out 282 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 5: of balance. But what we know from science and using 283 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 5: contemporary neuroimaging such as EEG which measures brain waves or 284 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 5: functional MRI, which actually is looking at the structures and 285 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 5: functions and the brains, is that when we experience stress 286 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 5: adversity than our memory the way that we process that memory, 287 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 5: it gets stored implicitly, meaning it gets stored at a 288 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 5: less conscious level, meaning that it gets stored in our body. 289 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 4: And when memories are stored in our. 290 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 5: Body, we don't have conscious access to that, and we 291 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 5: also don't have verbal access. 292 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: You know, I was reading some really interesting things about 293 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: how folks think about memories. It's said that a lot 294 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: of times we consider memories to be these intact accounts 295 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: of what happens, and that they get buried but that's 296 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: not actually how they work. There are restructuring or retelling 297 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: to preserve self right, and so sometimes we just don't 298 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: remember things or we have buried things because we don't 299 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: want to think about them a lot, and we may 300 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: not be able to actually recover a full memory, but 301 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: we may be able to process through some of the 302 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: feelings we had. It's really a complicated thing considering a 303 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: traumatic event, how you cope around that trial, if you're 304 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: even able to cope right, and then what some of 305 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: the effects of those coping mechanisms are. So you may 306 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: have high anxiety for a long time, which we know 307 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: means you may have different hormonal levels, you may have 308 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: different effects of long term stress physically manifesting from a 309 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 1: psychological event. 310 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 5: And so what ends up happening also is in the 311 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 5: recall or re experiencing of a trauma, the talking centers 312 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 5: of the brain aren't working as actively, and so we 313 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 5: see from neuroimaging capacities how different parts of the brain 314 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 5: aren't operating as fluidly as they might, and so that 315 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 5: too is going to hinder a person's ability to construct 316 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 5: a story, to tell their memory, to put together a narrative. 317 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 2: That's really amazing. So the nature of trauma is that 318 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: sometimes we literally can't even talk about it. That's really tough. 319 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, And that also gets in the way of this 320 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 5: really important part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex, 321 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 5: and that's the part of the brain behind our eyes. 322 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 5: That's how we live our life, our organization, our executive functions. Well, 323 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 5: when we're experiencing traumatic events, when we're experiencing emotional upheaval, 324 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 5: then the capacities for our prefrontal cortex to process information, 325 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 5: to process emotions. 326 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 4: That also gets steyny. 327 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: And that's something we talked about in the So Anxious 328 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: episode LAP thirty eight with doctor Wendy Suzuki. 329 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 2: Now that we know that trauma is stored in the body, 330 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 2: something like art therapy makes a lot of sense. Someone 331 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 2: might not be able to use words to talk about 332 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 2: or process their experience, and that could make healing really difficult. 333 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: This makes me think about what Professor King said earlier 334 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: about how art therapy can help people express and understand 335 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,479 Speaker 1: themselves without having conscious access or verbal access to whatever 336 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: they're working through in that therapy. 337 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 5: Now, we live in a verbal society. We live in 338 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 5: a society that's saying forget the young conscious whatever, let's 339 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 5: just stay focused. 340 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: Okay, so exhibit a social media podcast, not this one, though, 341 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 2: keep listening to dope labs. Everybody is talking about something, 342 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 2: and talking is a primary way of processing our subconscious 343 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 2: and the primary mode of communication and talk therapy. 344 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 5: But a lot of times talking just doesn't cut it. 345 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 5: We need other methods to help a person feel safe 346 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 5: enough to understand their situation enough in order to be 347 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 5: able to engage. Art therapy inherently allows for emotional regulation. 348 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: Professor King told us about the importance of nonverbal communication. 349 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: There's so much we say without using words, which is 350 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: why I know you give me a hard time for it, 351 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: but it's why, hands down, ten times out of ten, 352 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: sometimes eleven, I'm choosing FaceTime for an important conversation. 353 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 2: That is very true. I know if I hear that 354 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 2: time tone, I know it's the key. I just know. 355 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: If I can hear coming through microfeedter, I'm like, yes, 356 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 2: that's my friend. 357 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: But I think that's because so much of how I communicate, 358 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: even though I'm saying a lot of words. You do 359 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: not want these text messages unless you really know me 360 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: and can decide how these things are going you know. 361 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 2: I totally understand. I understand. 362 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 5: We use nonverbal communication all the time. That's how we 363 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 5: come out of the womb when we're born. We experience 364 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 5: the entire world through our senses. So that really forms 365 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 5: a strong foundation for how engagement and sensory motor, visual, 366 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 5: tactile movement. Engaging in these sensory experiences is innately part 367 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 5: of who we are and innately part of how we 368 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 5: need to express ourselves. And so this evidence points to 369 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 5: the value of the non verbal sensory therapies and treatment, 370 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 5: and in fact and society is the expressive therapy is 371 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 5: not only as an important treatment, but as crucial when 372 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,239 Speaker 5: it is that we're dealing with a lot of the 373 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 5: mental health and wellness issues that we deal with today. 374 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: When you look back at it, and I think about 375 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: the things that we've learned in a lot of our 376 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: episodes exploring the brain and unpacking and understanding development. Even 377 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: in that book that I recommend it and tt I 378 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: know you read it, Good Morning Monster. 379 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, yeah, and Oprah's book What Happened to You? 380 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 3: Right? 381 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: All of these things make me think about being an 382 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: infant is really traumatizing. 383 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 3: You have no way to express yourself. 384 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 1: You're trying to make sense of all these things around us, 385 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: and really our brains don't remember that. 386 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 5: No. 387 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: I would imagine being birthed into this new world with 388 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: all these like very foreign things. It's like being dropped 389 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 2: on another planet with aliens. 390 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 3: Yes, And then all. 391 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: Of a sudden people are like, all right, develop here, 392 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 2: eat this, drink this, I'm gonna carry you here, I'm 393 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: gonna put you down there. That's scary. Sometimes I think 394 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 2: about my dog Daisy, like that Daisy. 395 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: Must be like she's barking. You know, you're trying to 396 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: say things. You're trying to express yourself. Think about how 397 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: much babies babble and make noises, but they're trying to learn. Okay, 398 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: how can I tell this person there's poopin on my backside? 399 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 3: Help right? 400 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 2: Like, or they'll be in one direction and then all 401 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: of a sudden they're airborne and they're like, wow, I'm 402 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 2: flying because somebody picks them up and then moves them 403 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 2: somewhere else and they're like they're on a mission to 404 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 2: do something. They're like, oh, I would like to touch 405 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 2: that thing, and they start moving and all of a 406 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 2: sudden they're being lifted by a crane, and. 407 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 3: I don't know what's going on. 408 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 2: Imagine you walking down the street to the corner store 409 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 2: and a crane picks you up and drops you in 410 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 2: another state. 411 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 3: It's a lot of information to take in. 412 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: For some people, art may not be the magic key 413 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: right right, You may have to add something else. And 414 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: I've been seeing the adoption of a lot of different 415 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: things that to me, I would say, oh, non traditional, 416 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: but they may be rooted in something that I didn't 417 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: know about before. 418 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 3: Like remember when people were doing. 419 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: Yoga with goats, Yeah, and the goats were jumping on 420 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: their backs mm hmmm h But now what we see 421 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: is animal assistant therapy, so like emotional support animals. And 422 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: I'm like, we're those two things connected? Does one come 423 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: out of the other, right? 424 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 2: And I mean even when you think about just yoga, 425 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: there was a time where yoga was very new in 426 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,239 Speaker 2: Western culture and folks were very confused by it. And 427 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 2: now you know there's a yoga studio on every corner. 428 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 3: Yep. 429 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: There's a whole history of that, and I think what 430 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: we're seeing is that those types of practices were being 431 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: discredited in favor of a much more medical approach to things, 432 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: which is something that we talked about in our last 433 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: two labs about maternal health, when we talked about overall 434 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: wellness and sometimes just needing a more holistic approach. And 435 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: now we're seeing a shift right back to those same 436 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: things that have been working for societies and cultures. 437 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 3: For many many moves. 438 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 2: Did you ever see that video of that older woman, 439 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 2: really old, and she's in like the hospital or something 440 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: like that, and they play Swan Lake or something like 441 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 2: that and she starts moving. 442 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 3: M hmm. 443 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 2: That's what all this reminds me of. I'm like, yes, 444 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: a woman that is practically immobile, but when she hears 445 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 2: certain music played, it triggers something in her mind that recalls, 446 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 2: you know, her time as a prima ballerina. 447 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: We've seen music therapy as a great tool, and I 448 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: think people see it being used in classrooms. I've seen 449 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: it for a lot of older adults, especially when you 450 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: start considering, you know, the effects of memory loss. 451 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 2: One of my middle school science teachers shout out to 452 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 2: Mss Perico. Every time we had a test, she would 453 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 2: play Beethoven because she was like, it makes you smarter. 454 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 2: I don't know if that's true, but it was very relaxing, 455 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 2: and it did like kind of set the tone for 456 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: every single test that we took in her class, where 457 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 2: it just made you feel calm. It kind of like 458 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 2: just flipped the switch in your brain where it was like, Okay, 459 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: I know this sound. It's time to take a test, 460 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 2: It's time to focus. 461 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: So some of that is like music cues, and just 462 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: like there are different types of therapy within art therapy, 463 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: there are different types of mediums. 464 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 2: M we ask Professor King how different mediums can affect 465 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 2: us differently if we're using art therapy. 466 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 5: So one of the guiding theories of art therapy, what 467 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 5: I like to call our primary way of knowing, is 468 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 5: that media, meaning art materials have different properties. So watercolors 469 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 5: have different properties that clay does, that pastels do, and 470 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 5: so the theories go, which have become quite advanced over 471 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 5: the years, and to look at parallels between different media 472 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 5: properties and how these properties evoke different levels of expression, 473 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 5: all of which exists on what we could call a 474 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 5: hierarchical or developmental continuum. We call that the expressive therapies continuum. 475 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 4: And we use this. 476 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 5: Somewhat naturally and innately through our training to understand how 477 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 5: to develop interventions with specific art materials to effect or 478 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 5: to address whatever goal it is that we're working on. 479 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 5: A simple example would be using water colors is likely 480 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 5: going to evoke more of a sensory experience, more of 481 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 5: an opening up than building something with tools and wood, right, 482 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 5: That's going to evoke more of a cognitive higher level 483 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 5: of thinking. 484 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: That's really interesting, and so my next question is do 485 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 2: art therapists see a difference from person to person. Does 486 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 2: everyone respond to the same mediums in the same way. 487 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 2: So watercolors may open a person up black, Professor King said, 488 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 2: but maybe not necessarily for another person. 489 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 4: Therapy is subjective. 490 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 5: I think a really great example is thinking about those 491 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 5: coloring books, which ps are not art therapy. 492 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 4: But some people feel. 493 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 5: Really calm when they color those intricate designs. Other people 494 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,959 Speaker 5: feel like WHOA, They feel insecure, they feel overwhelmed, it 495 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 5: raises anxiety or like sends them into an obsessive state. 496 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: Professor King told us that art therapists are really careful 497 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 2: when using different mediums with patients. 498 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 5: If we're not careful, opening a person up too much 499 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 5: can lead to emotional flooding. A person can get overwhelmed 500 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 5: or overstimulated, there's actually an ethical responsibility that art therapists 501 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 5: and psychotherapists all have, and if they're not trained, then 502 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 5: they might not realize how the different materials could open 503 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 5: a person up too much without knowing how to help 504 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 5: that person regain a sense of control. And that's very 505 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 5: important and speaks to the capacities of the trained psychotherapists 506 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 5: to know when to tap into, when to kind of 507 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 5: push boundaries, when to foster self expression, as opposed to 508 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 5: helping a person maybe regulate, calm down, and be able 509 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 5: to engage in the process. One thing that works for 510 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 5: one may not work with another, and really bridges and 511 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 5: points back to the importance of that relationship, the assessment procedures, 512 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,719 Speaker 5: the goals and treatment, getting to know who it is 513 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 5: that you're working with, which is the driver to any 514 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 5: kind of psychotherapeutic support. 515 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 1: You know, I was a little surprised to find out 516 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: that those coloring books are not therapy, because you. 517 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 3: Know, between coloring things that are already. 518 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: Drawn, drawing my own doodles, doing puzzles, all those things 519 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: feel very calming for me. 520 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're therapeutic, but not therapy in the sense 521 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: that you're working with a therapist. So for you, puzzles 522 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 2: are therapeutic, but for me they raise my heart right, 523 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 2: So I'm not doing puzzles, but that makes me think. 524 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 2: And we want to know from you all, what types 525 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 2: of things that are considered art do you interact with 526 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 2: that make you feel calm, that are therapeutic for you. 527 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 2: If you look in this app right now, there's a 528 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 2: poll and you can choose which of the forms of 529 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 2: art you use to destress. 530 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: Where do you find an art therapist? It's already expensive 531 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: when we talk about just having talk therapy. 532 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: Come on, I've looked at a couple of. 533 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: Different places they're saying like individual sessions or you know, 534 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: in a therapeutic gower, which is like fifty to fifty 535 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: five minutes, and I see costs from one hundred to 536 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: two hundred dollars for each session. 537 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: That's a lot of money. I mean, because imagine you're 538 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 2: doing it weekly. Yeah, you multiply that by four and 539 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 2: then multiply that by twelve the numbers are up. That's 540 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 2: a lot of money. 541 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: And that goes right back into the insurance conversation we 542 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: had in last week's lap. 543 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: Yes about maternal health care. 544 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: That also has an effect on access. Who can access 545 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: these things? 546 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, because our therapy may be something that can really 547 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 2: help you sort through a lot of things. But if 548 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 2: you can't afford it, then it's just not a resource 549 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 2: that you can tap into. So then what happens, what 550 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: happens to you and your development, your mental health development. 551 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 5: So similar to the talk therapy, an art therapist can 552 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 5: be wherever talk therapist is. Art therapists work in many 553 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 5: different contexts. On the individual level, at the group level, 554 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 5: art therapists can work with couples and family therapy. Art 555 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 5: therapists can be seen in private practice and outpatient treatment 556 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 5: on inpatient facilities. 557 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: If you are someone you know is experiencing mental health symptoms, 558 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 2: the best thing you can do is talk to a 559 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: doctor who can work with you to come up with 560 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 2: a plan that is right for you. You can also 561 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 2: find resources for mental health support at spotify dot com 562 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 2: slash resources. 563 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 3: Okay, it's time for the one thing. 564 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 2: My one thing this week is an artist and I 565 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 2: find her art very therapy. It's very calmon and I 566 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: sent it to one of my sisters and she did 567 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: not get it. She was like, what is wrong with you? 568 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 2: And it's actually fiber art so it's these moving Scott motion, 569 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 2: felt and wool, and she creates these mini movies where 570 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 2: she bakes a cake or she'll make breakfast, and it 571 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 2: is just so detailed and the sounds are just so 572 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: rich at nice. I can watch those videos for hours. 573 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 2: You can find her on Instagram. Her Instagram name is 574 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 2: Andrea Animates. What about u Z? What's your one thing? 575 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: There's an artist of visual artists whose work I found 576 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: on Instagram and I just love it. It has a 577 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: calming effect. It has elements that feel like biological in nature. 578 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: So some things look like plants, some things look like 579 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: if you were using TM or SEM to look at 580 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: small biological structures. I feel like I can see those 581 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: types of patterns in the art. Her name is Linda 582 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: Cato and her art is amazing and it has like 583 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: a calming effect for me. That's it for Lab sixty four. 584 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: Have you rethought your relationship with art? I know I 585 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,239 Speaker 1: rethought mind throughout this entire lab. Call us at two 586 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: zero two five, six seven seven zero two eight and 587 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: tell us what you thought, or give us an idea 588 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: for a lab you think we should do this semester. 589 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: We really love hearing from you. That's two zero two 590 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: five six seven seven zero two eight. 591 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 2: And don't forget that there is so much more to 592 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 2: dig into on our website. There'll be a cheap cheap 593 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: for today's lab, additional links and resources in the show notes. 594 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 2: Plus you can sign up for our newsletter check it 595 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 2: out at Dope labspodcast dot com. Special thanks to today's 596 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 2: guest expert, Professor Juliette King. 597 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: You can find or follow her on Twitter at Tertiary 598 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: Process and read more of her work in her book 599 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: Art Therapy, Trauma and Neuroscience Theoretical and Practical Perspectives. 600 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: And you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at 601 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 2: Dope Labs Podcast. 602 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: TT's on Twitter and Instagram at d R Underscore t Sho. 603 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 2: And you can find Zakiya at z said So. Dope 604 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 2: Labs is a Spotify original production from Mega Owned Media Group. 605 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: Our producers are Jenny rattlet Mask and Lydia Smith of 606 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: WaveRunner Studios. Our associate producer from Mega Oh Media is 607 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: Brianna Garrett. 608 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 2: Editing in sound design by Rob Smerciak. 609 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 3: Mixing by Hannes Brown. 610 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 2: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex 611 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 2: Sugier from Spotify, executive producer Corin Gilliard, and creative producer 612 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 2: Miguel Contreras. Special thanks to Shirley Ramos, Jess Borrison, Yasmine Afifi, Kamu, Elolia, 613 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 2: Till krat Key and Brian Marquis. Executive producers from Mega 614 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 2: Own Media Group are us T T Show Dia and Zakiah. 615 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: Wattley oh Man talk about L Right. 616 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 3: I ever heard you see saying. 617 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 2: You don't want to hear It's awful? 618 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: No, it's not, it's it's special to me.