WEBVTT - Terrorism Investigations Hurt by Shutdown

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. The impact of

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<v Speaker 1>the government shutdown on the concealed operations of the intelligence

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<v Speaker 1>community it's hard to measure. FBI Director Christopher Ray summed

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<v Speaker 1>it up this way in his testimony to the Senate

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<v Speaker 1>Intelligence Committee. Needless to say, we're still assessing the overall

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<v Speaker 1>operational impact of the shutdown, but what's quite clear is

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<v Speaker 1>that it was incredibly negative and painful for the thirty

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<v Speaker 1>seven thousand men and women of the FBI and their families.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, years of work on terrorism investigations may be

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<v Speaker 1>wasted due to the government shutdown. Here to tell us

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<v Speaker 1>more is Jordan Reuben, Bloomberg Law Legal Editor. He's coming

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<v Speaker 1>to us from the Bloomberg Law Studio in Arlington, Virginia.

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<v Speaker 1>Jordan's explain how the shutdown effect did intelligence gathering and

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<v Speaker 1>counter terrorism efforts. Sure so, one of the most noteworthy

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<v Speaker 1>and really even scary negative impacts of the government shutdown

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<v Speaker 1>was how it affected operations of the FBI as a whole,

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<v Speaker 1>And one important facet of that is, as you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>how it affected counter terrorism counter intelligence investigations. We have

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<v Speaker 1>word from the FBI Agents Association, which represents thousands of agents,

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<v Speaker 1>which reported that in at least one investigation, they obviously

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't go into the details, but they lost sensitive intelligence,

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<v Speaker 1>sensitive sources, and that essentially led to months of work

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<v Speaker 1>for some sources, years of work for others, essentially being

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<v Speaker 1>down the drain. It may seem ironic to some that

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<v Speaker 1>drug and immigration cases at the border were affected negatively,

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<v Speaker 1>and those are the two areas the President often points

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<v Speaker 1>to in support of the need for a border wall exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>So one of the things that I took a look

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<v Speaker 1>at was at a border state like Arizona, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>drug interdictions saw a drop during the government shutdown. Certain

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<v Speaker 1>filings in for example, a district in Tucson near the

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<v Speaker 1>border saw a drop in illegal immigration cases. And that

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<v Speaker 1>was something that was surprising to people who follow these

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<v Speaker 1>sorts of things. And so the question is whether that

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<v Speaker 1>was a direct impact from the government shutdown, and it is,

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<v Speaker 1>as you point out, ironic, because that is the sort

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<v Speaker 1>of thing that the President does talk about as a

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<v Speaker 1>need for a southern border wall to stop these sort

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<v Speaker 1>of things. There's a cascading effect. The shutdown didn't directly

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<v Speaker 1>affects state and local law enforcement, but it indirectly affected

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<v Speaker 1>them and their relationship with the FBI, and that affects

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<v Speaker 1>the future relationship with the FBI. Explain how that went

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<v Speaker 1>down or didn't go down, Sure So, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>many complaints that we had from FBI agents. One of

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<v Speaker 1>them was, for example, a call to the FBI to

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<v Speaker 1>assist on a local homicide investigation, but due to lack

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<v Speaker 1>of funds during the government shutdown, the FBI could not assist.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the concern from the FBI there is not

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<v Speaker 1>only that they weren't able to help out on an

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<v Speaker 1>important investigation, but going forward, that could harm the relationship

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<v Speaker 1>between state and local officials and the FBI when there's

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<v Speaker 1>help needed going the other ways. That's again one of

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<v Speaker 1>the many negative consequences from the FBI's point of view

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<v Speaker 1>of the government shutdown. Your story mentioned something which I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't think about, which is paying snitches. I guess it's

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<v Speaker 1>what you'd call them. Sure So, the lack of funds, touches,

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<v Speaker 1>all sorts of things. It's not just a matter of

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<v Speaker 1>employees not getting their regular paycheck, which obviously is incredibly important,

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<v Speaker 1>but the FBI requires operational funding to actually go and

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<v Speaker 1>do things that are needed for investigations, whether it's paying

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<v Speaker 1>informants to do buys of drugs for an undercover investigation. Again,

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<v Speaker 1>that's something that's hurting the drug prosecutions that a southern

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<v Speaker 1>border wall would supposedly help to stem. As we also

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<v Speaker 1>discussed paying confidential sources when it comes to terrorism type

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<v Speaker 1>of investigations. So that's one of the many facets of

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<v Speaker 1>the government shutdown that harmed FBI investigations. Are some of

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<v Speaker 1>those source is perhaps lost forever or can they pick

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<v Speaker 1>up and start paying them now, Well, at least some

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<v Speaker 1>of them, according to some FBI agents, are lost forever,

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<v Speaker 1>and of course even for the ones that aren't lost forever.

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<v Speaker 1>Like anybody else who relies on a steady paycheck, whether

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<v Speaker 1>you're a regular government employee or whether you're drug buying informant,

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<v Speaker 1>you need a regular source of income. And so if

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<v Speaker 1>the government isn't going to be a steady paycheck, then

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<v Speaker 1>you might look elsewhere in order to get your regular money.

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<v Speaker 1>Not only the FBI, but prosecutors, public defenders and other

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<v Speaker 1>judiciary employees that it takes to run the system orn't

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<v Speaker 1>being paid. So I take it that's a hit too morale.

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<v Speaker 1>But what about retention and attraction of people in the future. Sure,

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<v Speaker 1>So that was one concern that was sort of a

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<v Speaker 1>constant across all facets of the justice system and people

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<v Speaker 1>that I spoke to. There's the uncertainty, there's the low morale.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a concern that people will look at this situation

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<v Speaker 1>who maybe have other options in the private sector and say,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what, I don't need to go through this.

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<v Speaker 1>I could be making more money in some sort of

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<v Speaker 1>private sector job. And maybe this is someone who does

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<v Speaker 1>think that public service is important, but it's just too

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<v Speaker 1>uncertain if they're going to not be able to rely

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<v Speaker 1>on a regular paycheck from the government and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the justice system and counter terrorism or their contractors involved. Sure.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's one of the many indirect impacts of the

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<v Speaker 1>government shutdown. And the worst part about it is for

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<v Speaker 1>people who are contractors as opposed to employees, is that

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<v Speaker 1>they won't necessarily get back pay. And so whether it's

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<v Speaker 1>someone like an interpreter who might be contracted out, whether

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<v Speaker 1>it's through a prosecutor's office, whether it's through a court,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it's through a public defender's office. That's the type

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<v Speaker 1>of service that's needed in order to, for example, carry

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<v Speaker 1>out certain investigations. The FBI mentioned that that was a

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<v Speaker 1>problem as well, whether it's in terms of a gang

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<v Speaker 1>investigation or a drug investigation. Interpreting services are something that

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<v Speaker 1>the government relies on a lot. And that's one example

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<v Speaker 1>of someone who could be a third party contractor who

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<v Speaker 1>is also affected by the shutdown indirectly. And another thing

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<v Speaker 1>didn't think about until I read your article was the

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<v Speaker 1>gathering of evidence crimes that were committed. There might perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>be evidence that's lost now or was collected sloppily. Well. Sure,

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<v Speaker 1>when there's a strain on resources, whether it's in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of not having the regular amount of personnel, whether it's

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<v Speaker 1>the personnel that you have worrying about where they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to get their next paycheck from, things inevitably are going

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<v Speaker 1>to fall through the cracks. And so the concern obviously

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<v Speaker 1>in part stems from things that we can point to,

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<v Speaker 1>but one of the most concerning aspects are the things

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<v Speaker 1>that we won't be able to point to the cases

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<v Speaker 1>that won't be able to get made in the first place,

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<v Speaker 1>the strain on the public defender, who isn't able to

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<v Speaker 1>put forth as vigorous a defense of their client as

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<v Speaker 1>they would like to. And so these are the sort

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<v Speaker 1>of things that, whether you can quantify them or not,

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<v Speaker 1>everyone who's involved in the justice system seems to agree

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<v Speaker 1>was an extremely negative impact of the shutdown. It was

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<v Speaker 1>amazing that the courts kept operating. Were there any courts

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<v Speaker 1>we have about a minute here, were there any courts

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<v Speaker 1>that closed down during the shutdown? I would say the

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<v Speaker 1>main issue wasn't necessar fairly so much the outright closure

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<v Speaker 1>of courts, but they just weren't really necessarily operating at

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<v Speaker 1>full steam at all facets. The criminal cases did take

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<v Speaker 1>a priority. Some civil cases were put on hold, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're very important consequences to there too. So from some

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<v Speaker 1>people's point of view, if their case wasn't heard at

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<v Speaker 1>the time that it was supposed to be, then in

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<v Speaker 1>some ways, you know, they didn't really get the sort

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<v Speaker 1>of justice that they had anticipated from the system due

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<v Speaker 1>to the shutdown. It's amazing all the indirect effects that

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<v Speaker 1>we don't think about Thanks so much. Jordan's that's Jordan Reuben.

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<v Speaker 1>He's at Bloomberg Law, Legal editor, and he's coming to

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<v Speaker 1>us from the Bloomberg Law Studio in Arlington, Virginia. Thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe

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<v Speaker 1>and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and

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<v Speaker 1>on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Basso. This

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<v Speaker 1>is Bloomberg Ye.