1 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. The impact of 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: the government shutdown on the concealed operations of the intelligence 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: community it's hard to measure. FBI Director Christopher Ray summed 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: it up this way in his testimony to the Senate 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: Intelligence Committee. Needless to say, we're still assessing the overall 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: operational impact of the shutdown, but what's quite clear is 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: that it was incredibly negative and painful for the thirty 12 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: seven thousand men and women of the FBI and their families. 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: In fact, years of work on terrorism investigations may be 14 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: wasted due to the government shutdown. Here to tell us 15 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: more is Jordan Reuben, Bloomberg Law Legal Editor. He's coming 16 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: to us from the Bloomberg Law Studio in Arlington, Virginia. 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: Jordan's explain how the shutdown effect did intelligence gathering and 18 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: counter terrorism efforts. Sure so, one of the most noteworthy 19 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: and really even scary negative impacts of the government shutdown 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: was how it affected operations of the FBI as a whole, 21 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: And one important facet of that is, as you mentioned, 22 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: how it affected counter terrorism counter intelligence investigations. We have 23 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: word from the FBI Agents Association, which represents thousands of agents, 24 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: which reported that in at least one investigation, they obviously 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't go into the details, but they lost sensitive intelligence, 26 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: sensitive sources, and that essentially led to months of work 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: for some sources, years of work for others, essentially being 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: down the drain. It may seem ironic to some that 29 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: drug and immigration cases at the border were affected negatively, 30 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: and those are the two areas the President often points 31 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: to in support of the need for a border wall exactly. 32 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I took a look 33 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: at was at a border state like Arizona, for example, 34 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: drug interdictions saw a drop during the government shutdown. Certain 35 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: filings in for example, a district in Tucson near the 36 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: border saw a drop in illegal immigration cases. And that 37 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: was something that was surprising to people who follow these 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: sorts of things. And so the question is whether that 39 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: was a direct impact from the government shutdown, and it is, 40 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: as you point out, ironic, because that is the sort 41 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: of thing that the President does talk about as a 42 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 1: need for a southern border wall to stop these sort 43 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: of things. There's a cascading effect. The shutdown didn't directly 44 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: affects state and local law enforcement, but it indirectly affected 45 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: them and their relationship with the FBI, and that affects 46 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: the future relationship with the FBI. Explain how that went 47 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: down or didn't go down, Sure So, one of the 48 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: many complaints that we had from FBI agents. One of 49 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: them was, for example, a call to the FBI to 50 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: assist on a local homicide investigation, but due to lack 51 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: of funds during the government shutdown, the FBI could not assist. 52 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: And so the concern from the FBI there is not 53 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: only that they weren't able to help out on an 54 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: important investigation, but going forward, that could harm the relationship 55 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: between state and local officials and the FBI when there's 56 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: help needed going the other ways. That's again one of 57 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: the many negative consequences from the FBI's point of view 58 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: of the government shutdown. Your story mentioned something which I 59 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: didn't think about, which is paying snitches. I guess it's 60 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: what you'd call them. Sure So, the lack of funds, touches, 61 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: all sorts of things. It's not just a matter of 62 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: employees not getting their regular paycheck, which obviously is incredibly important, 63 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: but the FBI requires operational funding to actually go and 64 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: do things that are needed for investigations, whether it's paying 65 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: informants to do buys of drugs for an undercover investigation. Again, 66 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: that's something that's hurting the drug prosecutions that a southern 67 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: border wall would supposedly help to stem. As we also 68 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: discussed paying confidential sources when it comes to terrorism type 69 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: of investigations. So that's one of the many facets of 70 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: the government shutdown that harmed FBI investigations. Are some of 71 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: those source is perhaps lost forever or can they pick 72 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: up and start paying them now, Well, at least some 73 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: of them, according to some FBI agents, are lost forever, 74 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: and of course even for the ones that aren't lost forever. 75 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: Like anybody else who relies on a steady paycheck, whether 76 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: you're a regular government employee or whether you're drug buying informant, 77 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: you need a regular source of income. And so if 78 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: the government isn't going to be a steady paycheck, then 79 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: you might look elsewhere in order to get your regular money. 80 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,239 Speaker 1: Not only the FBI, but prosecutors, public defenders and other 81 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: judiciary employees that it takes to run the system orn't 82 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: being paid. So I take it that's a hit too morale. 83 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: But what about retention and attraction of people in the future. Sure, 84 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: So that was one concern that was sort of a 85 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: constant across all facets of the justice system and people 86 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: that I spoke to. There's the uncertainty, there's the low morale. 87 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: There's a concern that people will look at this situation 88 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: who maybe have other options in the private sector and say, 89 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: you know what, I don't need to go through this. 90 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: I could be making more money in some sort of 91 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: private sector job. And maybe this is someone who does 92 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: think that public service is important, but it's just too 93 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: uncertain if they're going to not be able to rely 94 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: on a regular paycheck from the government and you know, 95 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: the justice system and counter terrorism or their contractors involved. Sure. 96 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: So that's one of the many indirect impacts of the 97 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: government shutdown. And the worst part about it is for 98 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: people who are contractors as opposed to employees, is that 99 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: they won't necessarily get back pay. And so whether it's 100 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: someone like an interpreter who might be contracted out, whether 101 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: it's through a prosecutor's office, whether it's through a court, 102 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: whether it's through a public defender's office. That's the type 103 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: of service that's needed in order to, for example, carry 104 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: out certain investigations. The FBI mentioned that that was a 105 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: problem as well, whether it's in terms of a gang 106 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: investigation or a drug investigation. Interpreting services are something that 107 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: the government relies on a lot. And that's one example 108 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: of someone who could be a third party contractor who 109 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: is also affected by the shutdown indirectly. And another thing 110 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: didn't think about until I read your article was the 111 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: gathering of evidence crimes that were committed. There might perhaps 112 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: be evidence that's lost now or was collected sloppily. Well. Sure, 113 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: when there's a strain on resources, whether it's in terms 114 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: of not having the regular amount of personnel, whether it's 115 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: the personnel that you have worrying about where they're going 116 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: to get their next paycheck from, things inevitably are going 117 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: to fall through the cracks. And so the concern obviously 118 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: in part stems from things that we can point to, 119 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: but one of the most concerning aspects are the things 120 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: that we won't be able to point to the cases 121 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: that won't be able to get made in the first place, 122 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: the strain on the public defender, who isn't able to 123 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: put forth as vigorous a defense of their client as 124 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: they would like to. And so these are the sort 125 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: of things that, whether you can quantify them or not, 126 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: everyone who's involved in the justice system seems to agree 127 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: was an extremely negative impact of the shutdown. It was 128 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: amazing that the courts kept operating. Were there any courts 129 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: we have about a minute here, were there any courts 130 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: that closed down during the shutdown? I would say the 131 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: main issue wasn't necessar fairly so much the outright closure 132 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: of courts, but they just weren't really necessarily operating at 133 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: full steam at all facets. The criminal cases did take 134 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: a priority. Some civil cases were put on hold, and 135 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: they're very important consequences to there too. So from some 136 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: people's point of view, if their case wasn't heard at 137 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: the time that it was supposed to be, then in 138 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: some ways, you know, they didn't really get the sort 139 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: of justice that they had anticipated from the system due 140 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: to the shutdown. It's amazing all the indirect effects that 141 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: we don't think about Thanks so much. Jordan's that's Jordan Reuben. 142 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: He's at Bloomberg Law, Legal editor, and he's coming to 143 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: us from the Bloomberg Law Studio in Arlington, Virginia. Thanks 144 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe 145 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and 146 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:50,239 Speaker 1: on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Basso. This 147 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Ye.