WEBVTT - Linda Gibson on Quantitative Solutions 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:06.000 This is Master's in Business with Barry rid Holds on 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:07.320 Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.360 This week on the podcast, I have yet another extra 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:17.919 special guest, Linda Gibson, CEO of Pigium Quantitative Solutions. She 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:22.920 has a really fascinating background, very clectic, a combination of 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:27.920 math and law. She has run a number of firms 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:32.479 and a number of divisions at large firms and traced 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:37.279 a career arc that's just very unusual compared to the 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:42.360 typical person in finance, eventually leading her to a point 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:47.080 where she's managing quants running about one hundred billion dollars 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:51.120 in assets. Really a fascinating background, and it just goes 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:55.120 to show you how broad and flexible the world of 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.600 finance is. That there are so many different ways you 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:05.360 can find yourself in a senior management position in this industry. 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:10.360 If you had to guess someone would run through this path, 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.560 you would never assume, well, you're going to come out 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.320 of law school and eventually you're going to be general counsel. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.240 How does that lead to running a group of quants? 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.520 But that was Linda's Korea path. There are a few 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:27.400 people in the world who are more knowledgeable about the 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:31.800 management of asset managers and what it's like to actually 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:37.600 run a global organization and interact with lots of aspects 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:43.000 of the business of finance, whether that's acquisitions or compliance 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:47.840 or dealing with all the legalities of multi jurisdictional regulations. 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:52.000 She really has been the person who's lived this and 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.560 walk the walk. And I found this conversation to be 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.640 quite fascinating, and I think you will also, with no 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:04.200 further ado, my conversation with Linda Gibson, CEO of Pigum 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.920 Quantitative Solutions. So let's get into your background, which is 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.919 really kind of interesting. You get a BS in mathematics 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:16.480 and a jd from Boston University. Math and law. Yep, 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.359 not the usual combination, not at. 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:23.040 All, Barry. It is something Math has always come easy 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.360 to me since a child. So I was a math 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:29.320 major pretty much because it was an easy a for me. 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.120 Math is truth, It's absolutely it is. 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:36.800 I loved the fact that my grades weren't subject to 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:41.480 the subjectivity of my professors, and that there was always 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.680 a right and wrong answer and the one that's. 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.840 Until you get to applied mathematics, where it all goes off. 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.280 The rails, which, if you notice, that is where I stopped. 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.200 I didn't get an advanced degree in math. 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:56.440 But you do get the JD. And you said you 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.320 weren't a math nerd. You were not looking for a 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:01.720 job in finance. What happened? 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.040 I was not. I was waitressing one summer, my final 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:09.440 summer after my senior year, and a friend called and said, 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.320 I just interviewed with a financial services company. I'm not 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:14.320 interested in the job, but you might want to reach out. 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.120 And I literally reached out. It was Mass Financial Services. 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.679 I reached out, I got the interview, and I got 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:23.040 the job, and I started the next week. Didn't really 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.000 think about going into financial services. I thought it was 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.120 going to be, honestly a math teacher. I was thinking 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:31.280 about teaching in boarding school. 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.560 Wait, so you go to MFS MFI and was this 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.520 between college and law school or after you graduated law school? 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:39.839 It was between college and law school. So first job 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:41.400 out of college. 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.120 And you discover, hey, this finance stuff is kind of interesting. 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.560 What then led you to go to law school instead 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:48.320 of business school? 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:50.560 I worked with a bunch of lawyers, So I worked 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:56.600 at the third party administrator distribution arm of mutual fund 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:59.440 family at Mass Financial. So it's called the Banking Services 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:02.920 group when banks couldn't offer and distribute mutual funds. So 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.240 we had clients like Chase and City Bank and JP 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:07.280 Morgan and all of those, And so I worked with 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.160 a bunch of lawyers and our company was going through 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.960 transition at the time, and I thought I always wanted 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:15.520 I knew I wanted to get an advanced degree. My 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.400 father is still a practicing lawyer at eighty five, and 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:19.880 my grandfather was a lawyer. 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.240 So you come from a long family of attorneys. 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:27.080 I do. But my father advised me not to go 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.200 into law. He always wanted to be a stockbroker, even 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.400 though he's in trusts in estates, yes, So he was 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.280 never really interested in pushing me to go into the law. 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.440 And even though he worked for his father's law practice 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.839 with the name on the door, literally, that was not 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:42.680 an option for me. 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:48.200 That's so amusing because I immediately imagined getting pushed back 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.840 from the family. Hey, everybody here is a lawyer, our 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:55.159 name is on the door. You're turning your back on 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.040 the family business. No, such, Nope. 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.440 They were at a point where they anti nepitism or 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.080 nepotism was an issue, and they said, nope, you will 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.360 not be coming to work for this firm, so don't 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:06.120 even think about it. 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:07.200 Huh. 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:10.039 So I was literally sitting on the roof deck one night, 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.080 and I was balancing law business school, which one made 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.360 more sense for me, and didn't really know that much 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.160 about either. But I was very logical by nature, and 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:20.080 I was working with a bunch of lawyers at the time. 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.719 And I also loved the fact that, well, it took 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.039 one more a year to get through school, three years 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.239 versus two. But when you come out you are something, 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:31.200 You're a lawyer, you have something, and so off I 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:32.040 went to law school. 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.640 I thought you were going to say indebted, but it 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.560 really had too It really doesn't matter when you come 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.440 out of business school. You're an MBA wouldn't come out 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.720 of law school assuming you passed the bar, you're JD 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:49.360 and your license to practice. How soon after law school 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.200 did you realize I don't want to practice law? 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:53.839 Pretty soon? 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.520 I went in year third year law school. 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.480 It was pretty much the third year of law school. 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.760 I was in a immersive mock trial program where you 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:04.679 spend the whole year and you work for the DA's 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:07.480 office in the prosecutor's office. I thought I wanted to 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:09.920 be a lawyer. LA law was what it. 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:11.520 Was all about, exactly. 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.000 It was so cool, and so I thought, that's what 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.239 I want to do. I got into it. I wanted 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.159 every single one of my cases to settle. I did 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.520 not like law, especially trial work, at all. And I 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.159 was walking on the street and I ran into somebody 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.000 I had worked with at this banking services group of 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.559 MFS which had spun off and become Signature Financial Group, 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:34.680 and the woman said to me, you might want to 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.000 come back and work for us. Have you thought about it? 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.320 And I said absolutely, I'm in what do I need 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:42.560 to do? And I started working for them part time 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.320 during my third year of law school, and then worked 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:46.760 for them ten years after. 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:51.719 That's interesting. When did the Harvard Advanced Management Program come along? 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:56.799 That came along much later. So I spent the first 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.920 decade of my career as a mutual fund attorney, which 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:01.800 was really in. 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.400 The house for not for a law firm, but for 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.320 a mutual fund related company. 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.320 Right this was the Signature Financial Group. And that was 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:14.120 a great opportunity to learn, frankly, because not only was 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.560 I writing offering documents, I was reading I mean, how 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:19.280 many people do you know that have read the forty 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.760 Act and read the various Use its Directives, which is 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.680 the basically the UK equivalent to the forty Act. 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:26.360 I saw a lot of people keep it on the 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:27.520 nightstand in case they. 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:33.760 Case I tired, Yeah, put right out right. So that 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.080 was just a really good foundation for me. I also sat, 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.240 as I said, we were the third party distributor for 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:41.559 all of these major companies, so I was on twelve 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:43.880 different boards, not on them, but I was the officer, 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.160 so I was taking minutes. So I was learning just 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:48.920 a ton about the mutual fund industry and working with 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:53.240 these big global companies. But then this company, I'm getting 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.440 off topic of the Advanced Management degree, but this company 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:00.120 launched a new investment fund structure called Global Hub and 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.520 Spoke or master Feeder you might have heard of it. 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.080 And I was chosen by the CEO to go travel 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:11.120 globally with him to not only get big firms the 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:15.280 likes of HSBC, Julius Beher those types to adopt this 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.240 fund structure, but also to get regulatory approval. So I 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:20.120 was traveling all around the globe. This is I was 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:21.080 in my twenties at Chris. 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.000 It had a lot of fun on the company dime. 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.600 It was very, very fun, weird runt of the bus 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.040 front of the US. Yeah. Well, we actually had a 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:33.920 flat in London, so I was going to Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.440 the UK trying to get regulatory approval of this mutual 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.920 fund structure. So it was really really a great foundation 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:44.679 for me and I did that for about ten years, 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.040 and this is where I moved over to UAM at 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:52.680 the time, which is the first multi boutique investment business, 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.840 and I moved over there into their third party mutual 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:57.840 fund business as general counsel. 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:03.000 So that's the real interesting question is why general counsel 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.520 in house when given your background, you could have gone 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.400 to any of the big firms Scadden elsewhere and made 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:15.000 a ton of money working as an attorney working for 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:16.920 these big fun companies. 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.840 It's ironic that you said that you said Scadden. 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:21.079 Because not ironic at all. 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.440 When I was thinking about going to Old Mutual, I 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:27.840 was offered a job at Scadden that same day for 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.120 the same amount of money, and I knew UAM was 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.240 potentially going to be acquired, and I knew it was 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.800 a riskier business, but I thought I can go work 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:39.320 for a law firm and then eventually become a general 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:42.080 counsel or. I can just skip the law firm step, 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.079 especially working at a firm like Scadden, and go directly 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.840 to the general council job, which I thought was much 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:51.800 more interesting to me. So even though Scadden had such 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.720 a big name, I decided to go to UAM. 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.640 And it's a really challenging life work balance. At my 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.880 my friends who all went to big firms like you 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:06.000 hear stories and all they do is wine. Why don't 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.760 you quit? I can't leave. I'm making so much money, 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:11.080 but you're miserable. I'm just going to do this for 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:15.760 another five years. I've heard every ten twenty years it 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.040 keeps going. So you skip that went in house, never 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:19.840 looked back. 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.400 Never looked back, and the firm got acquired pretty much 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:24.480 a year later. I was told to shut down my 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.160 division or my business unit, which I did, and more interestingly, 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.440 given my us its background, in the fact that I 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:36.000 had traveled globally. This was a South African based firm, 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:38.520 so Old Mutual, but it was listed in London, so 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.560 the head office was in London. They were very interested 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.080 in my global experience and my regulatory experience, so they said, hey, 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.240 you want to become general counsel of the holding company. 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.960 Why wouldn't you? So I then put all of my 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.720 forty act work aside, and that's when I really learned 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.520 the art of negotiation. They had forty four affiliates at 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:58.880 the time. We had to convert them from revenue share 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.199 to profit sharing. We had to put equity in the 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:05.319 hands of the founders and their management teams. We were 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.600 doing M and A work. We were disposing of firms 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:11.600 that weren't strategic, we were acquiring firms. So I ended 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:17.400 up negotiating with so many CEOs CIOs and founders. That 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.360 was really eye opening. When people have self interest and 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.800 it affects their wallets, they are very interesting people. So 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:25.480 I had to. 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:30.000 Pivot and very phrase interesting people. Yeah, are you New 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.640 York based, London based or Nylon back and forth. 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.360 I was Boston based. We were Boston based, but we 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:39.760 had our parent company was in London, and then the 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.400 ultimate insurance company was in South Africa, so I was 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.280 in London quarterly. And then we had affiliates. We had 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.839 forty four affiliates and they were all over the US, 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.720 but they were also in the UK and Tokyo. 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.240 At the time, so you were really on a plane 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.319 a lot global. I think. I think the flight from 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.440 Vancouver to Tokyo is fast than the flight from New 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.080 York to South Africa. That's a bear of a flight, 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:04.640 isn't it? 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.360 It is? But South Africa is really amazing. And it 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:11.560 was interesting going into Cape Town and looking around. The 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:15.040 brand Old Mutual was like Coca Cola here. It was 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:18.320 on every building everywhere. It was really interesting. They had 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.760 offices in Cape Town, and Joe Burke I preferred Cape 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:21.400 Town of course. 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.920 But so the obvious question, given this background in law 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:30.840 and working on mutual funds and eventually becoming general counsel, 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.400 how does this prep you for the role you have 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:38.840 today essentially hurting cats and managing a whole bunch of quants. 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:44.120 Again, the learning the negotiation skills really helped a lot 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:48.920 in dealing with managing investment professionals as well as managing quants. 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.760 As you know, quants have extremely high IQs. I mean 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:57.120 our firm pgum quant we have twenty nine PhDs. Our 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.360 CIO is literally an x rocket scientists to use to 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.440 work at NASA, and then we have an advisor to 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.520 the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the UK as a CIO, 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:11.320 so these are very very smart people. Managing them you 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:13.920 definitely have to adapt your style a bit, so you 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.400 have to learn how to deal with smart people as 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.800 well as introverts. We have a lot of introverts at 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.520 are firm. They sometimes have trouble talking to clients. Sometimes 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.520 they have trouble talking to me, so I need to 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.480 adjust my management style. But what I learned really early 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.760 in my career is that it's not about IQ, it's 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:34.120 about well, it is about IQ. We need very smart people, 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.760 but EQ is equally important. So what I have to 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.320 do for them is I have to lead them, direct them, 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.240 manage them and then sort of push them, but then 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:44.880 just leave them alone. I want to make sure I've 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:49.600 give them the resources that they need, but also give 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:54.040 them the direction that they need. And having this legal background, 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.600 what was really great about it is when you're a lawyer, 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:01.120 you're at every important meeting. You're in all the board meetings, 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.200 midting everything, You're in the board meetings, you're in the 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.120 compensation meetings, you're in the internal audit meetings. So you 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.760 really learned everything about a business, everything that goes right 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.800 and everything that goes wrong. So that really helped me 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.280 understand what it was like or what it would be 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.160 like to manage a company. And then I had this 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:24.280 strange seven year stint of heading global distribution, which is 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:26.960 that was very interesting. I didn't want that job at all. 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.040 The CEO of our firm came to me and said, 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.160 I don't really need a chief operating officer, but what 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:34.200 I do need is a global head of distribution. Can 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.200 you build a centralized global sales team? And oh, by 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.040 the way, your compensation is going to be tied to 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.080 assets raised, which is the first time that ever happened 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:42.600 in my life. 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.640 Right, interesting perspective change, eating what you kill. 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.200 Yes, I had never sold anything either, So again, what 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.080 I had to do there was be comfortable with hiring 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.400 really smart people. So I analyzed the landscape, figured out 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.440 where there was demand for our products, made sure we 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.040 had the right products to sell, made sure that the 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.200 regulatory and the expense hurdles were too high to go in. 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:05.200 And then I had to build a lean team of 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.200 very smart salespeople that could sell our products in these 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.440 various jurisdictions. But also, when you think you're managing people 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.120 so far away from you, the distance is so vast 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.480 that you have to trust them. We had people in Dubai. 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:18.640 I need to make sure those people are doing what 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.240 they say they're doing and that I can trust them, 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:25.320 and never mind also people in China, Hong Kong, Tokyo. 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.240 Sometimes we had language barriers, so again I had to 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.760 make sure that I hired the best people that I 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.200 could really trust to do what they needed to do, 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:35.600 and then again let them go. I also needed to 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.080 learn fast that when somebody is not right or not 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.360 a good cultural fit, that you need to make a 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:43.040 change very very quickly. 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.200 Yeah, not to say the very least. So let's talk 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:48.880 a little bit about your work with Pigium. They are 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.640 one of the world's top twenty asset managers well over 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:56.040 a trillion dollars. What was it like settling in to 0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:00.640 such a giant firm coming from more reasonable both size 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.000 firms in the early part of your career. 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.360 Well, I came from a more reasonably sized firm. It 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.640 was a very very easy transition for me because I 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:15.640 spent seventeen years at an insurance owned multi boutique at 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.960 the head office in various executive positions, So it was 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.480 a surprisingly easy transition for me. 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.240 Close of the insurance background, or because of. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.880 Just the multi boutique background. So I wasn't on the 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:33.320 insurance side. So I was at the asset management arm 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:38.400 of the Old Mutual insurance enterprise, and I worked at 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:40.800 the head office. I was after I was general counsel, 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.040 I was chief operating officer and head of affiliate management. 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:48.800 So I oversaw nineteen different investment boutiques that frankly spanned 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:53.120 the gamut of offerings. We had timber, we had real estate, 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:58.600 we had global fixed income, quant equity, fundamental equity, managed futures, 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.520 everything you name it had it. And Old Mutual was ODDO, 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.720 South Africa, London, New York, Boston. 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:09.640 Boston, Okay. So you're used to working cross timelines and. 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:14.040 Regions, absolutely, and having worked in that environment for so 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:18.520 long made moving over to pGEM and pGEM Quant Solutions 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.639 a pretty easy transition for me. I was really excited 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:23.600 about it. I had been watching PGIM, I had been 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.480 watching their reputation and their brand grow exponentially under David 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.600 Hunt's leadership, and then I had also known a lot 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:34.040 about pGEM. Quant at the time was called QMA, and 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:38.040 we had a firm at Old Mutual two firms Acadian 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.520 and Analytic, who are both quant firms, and I sat 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.480 on both of their boards for years, and as head 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.320 of affiliate management, you're responsible for their p and ls, 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:50.640 so you're in their shorts with respect to their strategy, 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:54.480 their product development, any liftouts they would do, making sure 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:58.400 they had appropriate distribution resources and funding, made sure their 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:03.119 succession plans were set and were executed seamlessly. So I 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.600 spent a lot of time with quantitative firms and I 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:10.119 really really liked it. Coming from a math science background, 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:14.040 I very much liked the systematic nature of a quant firm, 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.439 but I also liked it pagem quant. We like to 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.879 call it the fusion of art and science, so you 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:23.080 have the fundamental insights plus the systematic And while I 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:27.120 am a math science person, I am very very artsy 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.640 and creative. I love a good craft. My daughter got 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:34.840 married two weeks ago and I spent my winter learning 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:38.359 how to day coupage oyster shells with maps of the 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:42.200 cape and gold gilding along the edges. So I spent 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.560 I don't know how many weekends doing two hundred of 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.240 these over the winter last year. So that is a 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:51.000 little snapshot into my life. But to take it back. 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:52.720 So I very much like sort of the art and 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.240 science of quant investing. So it was a natural fit 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.200 for me to come to PGM, but also to come 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:03.520 to pagemqu and it's been it was remarkably easy to 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.840 transition to the firm and more interesting to me. When 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:11.639 I became COO, I expected, frankly, organ rejection because I 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:15.240 didn't come from the investment management side of the business, 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:20.960 and often you think that investment professionals want CEOs who 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:25.080 are investment professionals. And I was shocked and delighted frankly 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:28.600 when I was appointed a Chief operating officer of PGAM. 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:33.800 Kwant that the investment group embraced it. They loved the 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.560 fact that I would support them and lean into them 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.479 and really let them do what they do and not 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:40.760 micromanage them. 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:46.160 So CIO and CEO are very very different skill sets. CIO, 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:52.240 you're essentially dealing with a probabilistic process trying to make 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:57.119 assessments about an unknown outcome in the future. CEOs have 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.920 to manage people, they have to manage budgets. It's much 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:05.960 more blocking and tackling and less probabilistic than the investment side. 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:09.280 So the fact that you're now CEO of this group 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:12.560 of quants but don't have a background as a CIO, 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:14.919 that I don't think that at all would work to 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:16.120 your disadvantage. 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:18.960 Yeah, and I saw it in real life when being 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:21.280 part of a multi boutique and being on the boards 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:25.919 of nineteen investment managers. I saw the difference between the 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:29.560 CEOs that had been investment professionals or CIOs and the 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:33.679 ones that were heads of distribution or were in operations. 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.840 It is interesting, though the majority are either in distribution 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:43.840 or CIOs, they don't tend to be lawyers. So but regardless, 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:48.000 I do think that CIOs tend, if I'm going to stereotype, 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.360 they tend to do better managing money. 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.840 Than people I know. That's absolutely I don't think that 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:58.719 that's over generalizing at all. What's kind of interesting is 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:04.840 I thought the ease going from Old Mutual to pGEM, 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.600 given both of their insurance backgrounds, might have been that, 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:11.520 but you're suggesting it was less had to do with 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:14.399 that and more had to do with just running a 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:19.200 broad assortment of different groups, departments, division strategies, et cetera. 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:23.080 Yeah, both pGEM and All Mutual are similar with respect 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:27.960 to their investment management businesses tend to be pretty separate 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:31.320 and distinct from their insurance businesses. So they report in 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.840 and they have quarterly business reviews and all of that stuff, 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:39.879 and they dovetail nicely, but they really are run separately. 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:44.040 So you were general counsel and how to manage a 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.400 large group of attorneys, and now you're managing a large 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:51.800 group of quants. Any similarities or differences that are noteworthy 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.000 between hurting each herd of cats over there? 0:21:55.200 --> 0:22:00.000 There are similarities in that they both tend to be meticulars, 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:04.360 so they're both type A. They're both very very smart, 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.720 and they tend to get into the weeds and the details. 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:10.520 So you have to constantly take them up. So at 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:15.200 our firm, putting portfolio managers in front of prospects and clients, 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.280 we constantly have to train them, give them presentation training. 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.679 We need to often bring in CPMs to help translate 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:27.800 their knowledge into Layman's terms. It cpmbing being client portfolio managers. 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.400 So these are the people that explain what we do 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:32.120 in Layman's terms. 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:33.320 To prospects client facing. 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:36.520 Yes, and many of our as I said before, many 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:39.920 of our investment professionals or introverts. They do not want 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:43.399 to be in front of clients or prospects. Lawyers can 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:46.480 be the same, and you often have to get lawyers 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:49.320 to think like business people. You do the same thing 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.760 with investment professionals. They don't have to think like business 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:56.800 professional as much as lawyers do, but they still need 0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:59.760 to adjust their thinking a little bit. And I often 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:03.200 need to change my leadership style. And I learned early on. 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:06.399 I took a personality profiling test. I don't know if 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:09.320 you've ever heard of it. It's called Insights Discovery, and 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:11.840 they put you into a color bracket and I'm red, 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:15.680 which means I tend to like people to be be bright, 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:18.080 be brief, and be gone. That's how I like people 0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:20.119 to interact with me. But there are a lot of 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:22.119 people that want a lot of data. They want a 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:24.720 lot of information. You need to spend time with them. 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:26.680 You need to ask them how their kids are. Some 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:28.919 are extroverts, they don't care about the topic. They just 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:33.080 want to have fun, you know. Others care more about socializing. 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:34.960 There's a lot of different ways people like to take 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:38.360 in information. So when you're managing lawyers and you're managing quants, 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:43.199 there is something similar there. Managing distribution people is a 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:46.760 whole different ball of wax, though that was fascinating when 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:48.520 I managed distribution group. 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:51.280 Salespeople respond to financial incentives. 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:55.560 They do. They also can be very needy and they 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:58.760 can require a lot of your time. And they also 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:02.240 want to be praised a bit, huh, which is interesting 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:04.520 although everybody, I think everyone likes praise. 0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:08.480 I guess. But if you're on a variable com system, 0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:12.919 depending on how successfully you raise assets, it's there in 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:17.439 black and white on the sales log you've raised X. Hey, 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:19.679 do I really need to tell you this is fantastic? 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:21.000 You did a great job this quarter. 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:23.960 You do. Actually, what I did learn is you do 0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:27.399 and the more you do it, the better they perform. Now, 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:29.440 I think again, that works everywhere. What do they say 0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:31.720 you have to say something positive X number of times 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:32.400 the sandwich? 0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:34.280 Yeah, you're gonna say something negative. You've got to put 0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:36.520 something positive on either side. 0:24:36.320 --> 0:24:36.960 Either side of it. 0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:40.600 Criticism sandwich I find not amusing. So let's drill down 0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:45.120 a little bit to the various quant strategies that pGEM utilizes. 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:49.960 Is a different asset classes, different geographies, different strategies. What 0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:54.239 is the full spectrum of offerings pGEM has for their 0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:54.879 Quant group. 0:24:55.480 --> 0:24:58.600 Short answer is all of the above. So pagem Quant 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:03.560 is divided into three platforms. We have our quant Equity platform, 0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:09.919 which manages risk control equity portfolios that were quants, so 0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:15.600 they're model and factor driven. They cover core value, opportunistic equity, 0:25:15.720 --> 0:25:19.359 and indexing. Then we have a multi asset platform. The 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:23.920 multi asset platform manages things like offerings that give you 0:25:24.080 --> 0:25:28.000 inflation hedging against inflation, so we use publicly traded real 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:33.200 assets and commodities. We do defensive equity strategies. We also 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:36.359 do asset allocation and overlays. And then we have a 0:25:36.400 --> 0:25:40.720 third platform which pGEM Quant acquired right before I joined, 0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:43.800 which was another interest of mine was integrating a new 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:47.040 firm into the fold, and this is Pgemwouldwanti. It's our 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:52.840 London based liquid alternatives firm. It offers global macro trend following. 0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:57.200 It also has inflation hedging products as well as macrotail 0:25:57.240 --> 0:26:00.320 risk products, so we kind of cover and we go 0:26:00.520 --> 0:26:04.600 up and down the market spectrum from microcap all the 0:26:04.640 --> 0:26:07.520 way up to large cap and then we go across geography, 0:26:07.640 --> 0:26:12.520 so we'll do US, International, EMX, China, you name it. 0:26:12.560 --> 0:26:15.120 We offer most of it in quant form. The one 0:26:15.160 --> 0:26:20.040 thing we don't offer is privates. Our sister company does that. 0:26:20.400 --> 0:26:21.520 What's the name of the sister Hume. 0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:24.959 We have well Page in private capital. We have pGEM 0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:28.639 real Estate. We actually have six sisters. We have pGEM 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:34.639 Fixed Income, Jennison PGE and Portfolio Advisory and pGEM Investments. 0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:37.480 Those all wrapped together make up that one point two 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:38.480 trillion dollars. 0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:42.240 That is PGIM really interesting. So let's talk a little 0:26:42.240 --> 0:26:47.240 bit about multi asset opportunities. Starting with you have a 0:26:47.359 --> 0:26:50.879 year like last year twenty twenty two. Stocks are down, 0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:54.080 bonds are down, all these asset classes are under pressure. 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:57.159 How does that affect all the various strategies that you 0:26:57.200 --> 0:26:57.919 guys are running. 0:26:58.600 --> 0:27:01.879 Well, Clearly the markets affect our strategies. But that's one 0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:05.800 of the reasons that we feel strongly that quants excel 0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:11.200 in volatile times, mostly because they have a long term approach. 0:27:11.480 --> 0:27:16.520 They're data driven, they're disciplined, they're diversified. So we have 0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:20.120 three hundred plus stocks in our portfolios. We look at 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:24.640 hundreds of pieces of data on ten thousand companies every day, 0:27:25.240 --> 0:27:28.080 so we're very, very diversified. But the other thing about 0:27:28.080 --> 0:27:31.680 being a quant which is nice is it removes the 0:27:32.320 --> 0:27:35.840 emotional bias from picking socks, so you don't get caught 0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:39.560 up in what's going on in the market and freaking 0:27:39.600 --> 0:27:42.400 out in essence and making bad decisions. You have your 0:27:42.440 --> 0:27:45.800 models to ground you. Sure there's fundamental insights on top, 0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:48.960 and there are people here back to that fusion of 0:27:49.040 --> 0:27:53.840 art and science, but we have the models as our bedrock. 0:27:54.600 --> 0:27:58.600 So, given what twenty twenty two is like and obviously 0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:02.320 very challenging, what's it like when the calendar flips really 0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:06.560 was last October twenty twenty two, where market's bottomed and 0:28:06.680 --> 0:28:11.040 took off. How does that change in market regime effects 0:28:11.560 --> 0:28:14.720 how you're going about your business or is it still 0:28:14.720 --> 0:28:17.000 the same thing, just whether market's going up and down, 0:28:17.160 --> 0:28:19.080 you're still applying the same strategies. 0:28:20.000 --> 0:28:23.840 We're applying the same strategies. But having said that, and 0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:27.639 again we offer so many different strategies, but what we 0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:31.000 do have and people have been very very interested in them, 0:28:31.320 --> 0:28:35.840 are sort of that in the inflation hedging strategies that 0:28:35.880 --> 0:28:41.600 we offer the custom mandates. We're all about solving our clients' 0:28:41.600 --> 0:28:44.440 needs not only today but tomorrow. So how do we 0:28:44.480 --> 0:28:47.080 work with those clients to figure out what they're trying 0:28:47.080 --> 0:28:51.959 to solve for some downside protection, so we've been recently 0:28:52.680 --> 0:28:56.680 putting together portfolios that have downside protection. They might limit 0:28:56.720 --> 0:28:58.880 the upside a little bit. We can adjust that depending 0:28:58.880 --> 0:29:02.000 on our client's preference and needs and wants. The macro 0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:06.240 tail risk products, the inflation hedging products, all of these 0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:09.280 different things that are helping clients right now move away 0:29:09.320 --> 0:29:12.840 from the sixty to forty portfolio is just not working 0:29:12.840 --> 0:29:15.120 for clients right now. And sure they want to put 0:29:15.440 --> 0:29:18.480 money into privates. Privates are big right now, and pGEM 0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:21.480 is leaning into our privates and our alts, meaning pGEM 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:24.760 at our head office. But at the same time, people 0:29:24.880 --> 0:29:28.720 need liquid investments, and so what we provide for them 0:29:28.920 --> 0:29:33.280 is liquid solutions to help them navigate through these turbulent times. 0:29:34.320 --> 0:29:39.000 Huh really interesting. So the bulk of what you're doing 0:29:39.280 --> 0:29:44.360 is liquid. You don't need a gate to get out. 0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:49.080 These are all stocks, bonds, other assets that are readily 0:29:49.560 --> 0:29:51.080 tradable any given day. 0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:55.720 Yep. All liquid, including publicly traded real assets and commodities. 0:29:56.240 --> 0:29:58.920 Clearly liquidity is a little tougher with sort of the 0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:01.320 microcap and the small all. So what we do what 0:30:01.480 --> 0:30:04.080 our models do there is they assess the trading costs 0:30:04.120 --> 0:30:06.960 of getting in and out of companies, because we want 0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:09.160 to make sure, of course that you don't pay more 0:30:09.200 --> 0:30:11.320 in trading costs to get out than your alpha, so 0:30:11.360 --> 0:30:13.520 we have to pay attention to that. We also have 0:30:13.640 --> 0:30:16.160 people that use us for overlay strategies and they often 0:30:16.200 --> 0:30:18.320 have to get out on a dime, so we need 0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:20.440 to make sure that everything is very, very liquid. 0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:26.600 That's really interesting. How bespoke are the portfolios and the 0:30:26.640 --> 0:30:29.960 solutions that you come up with for clients. Are they 0:30:30.560 --> 0:30:36.880 really customized for individual institutions or how do you think 0:30:36.920 --> 0:30:38.880 about that approach? 0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:44.520 They're extremely customizable across all of our platforms. So even 0:30:45.000 --> 0:30:47.520 I'll give you an example, our quant equity platform, we 0:30:47.560 --> 0:30:50.400 have an ESG solutions offering. We had a very very 0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:53.959 large E andF endowment and foundation come to us and 0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:57.120 say we need to get we need to solve for 0:30:57.200 --> 0:31:00.560 our ESG needs, and we want to do that. We 0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:02.920 want to track a certain index, but we want to 0:31:02.960 --> 0:31:05.640 take energy out of the portfolio. So what we've been 0:31:05.680 --> 0:31:10.080 able to do is we've been able to help investors 0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:13.400 solve for their ESG needs wherever they are in their journey, 0:31:13.680 --> 0:31:15.800 and I get that it's different for different people. But 0:31:15.880 --> 0:31:19.440 that's what's really unique about our offerings is that we're 0:31:19.520 --> 0:31:21.720 able to sit there and talk to you and say, Berry, 0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:24.120 what's important to you? Do you care about water usage? 0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:26.440 Do you care about women on boards? You care about energy? 0:31:26.440 --> 0:31:29.959 Do you care about carbon footprint? How much do you 0:31:31.600 --> 0:31:34.920 want it to impact your returns? Or maybe you don't 0:31:34.920 --> 0:31:36.880 want it to impact your returns at all? So how 0:31:36.880 --> 0:31:39.440 do we work with you to create a portfolio that 0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:43.680 does what you wish? So that's been really interesting and 0:31:43.720 --> 0:31:45.120 we've gotten a lot of traction there. 0:31:45.320 --> 0:31:48.760 Huh, really super intriguing. So you mentioned some people are 0:31:48.760 --> 0:31:52.720 looking for inflation hedging. I would imagine that would have 0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:56.920 been really useful last year. Are you still getting demand 0:31:56.960 --> 0:32:02.440 for that? Given how far ce is fallen from the peak? 0:32:02.600 --> 0:32:05.880 When was that June twenty twenty two something like that? 0:32:06.240 --> 0:32:08.160 Is there still a demand for inflation hatching? 0:32:08.800 --> 0:32:11.840 There still is? It may not be as in demand 0:32:11.880 --> 0:32:14.760 as it's been, but if you think about where we are, 0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:19.600 the macro environment is so uncertain. People still don't know 0:32:19.680 --> 0:32:22.400 whether we're going to have a recession. People don't know 0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:27.400 people are assuming there's going to be a recession in Europe, 0:32:27.480 --> 0:32:30.920 so people just don't know. So I think they're really 0:32:31.040 --> 0:32:33.560 trying to pardon the use of the word hedge, but 0:32:33.640 --> 0:32:37.200 hedge their bets and make sure that they have downside protection. 0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:42.000 And people get a bit scared in this type of 0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:45.120 environment and they want to diversify their portfolio. So we 0:32:45.280 --> 0:32:47.280 just what we want to do is we want to 0:32:47.320 --> 0:32:50.360 partner with our clients. And they might have any number 0:32:50.360 --> 0:32:53.560 of needs. They might have, you know, risk parameters, they 0:32:53.640 --> 0:32:57.240 might have liquidity needs, they might want to track a benchmark, 0:32:57.800 --> 0:33:00.240 they might want to just absolute return, they might want 0:33:00.280 --> 0:33:04.280 real return. Whatever they need, we will solve for. 0:33:04.920 --> 0:33:09.400 So about half of your clients Bullpark are large institutions. 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:15.400 You mentioned endowments and foundations, and given the background of 0:33:15.480 --> 0:33:19.680 pGEM with insurance, I think about future liabilities. Is there 0:33:19.720 --> 0:33:23.040 a lot of matching? Hey, in twenty thirty five, we 0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:27.520 have this sort of expected demand on our capital. How 0:33:27.560 --> 0:33:32.560 important is future liability matching to custom solutions? 0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:36.320 It's not. We don't do as much of that at 0:33:36.320 --> 0:33:39.520 pGEM quant So we do manage money for the prudential 0:33:39.640 --> 0:33:42.080 general account, but it tends to be in equities, and 0:33:42.120 --> 0:33:44.960 we do manage some money for them through our pagem 0:33:45.000 --> 0:33:48.560 would WANTI. But as you know, insurance companies have various 0:33:48.600 --> 0:33:51.320 constraints and that they need to solve for these things, 0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:54.800 and they have much smaller buckets of risk assets. So 0:33:54.880 --> 0:33:58.920 should insurance companies invest in equities? We very much want 0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:00.760 to be a part of that, and we do manage 0:34:01.320 --> 0:34:04.920 equities on behalf of our parent company. But lucky for 0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:07.800 us is we don't We don't have to think about 0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:10.960 paying claims. We just have to think about managing the 0:34:10.960 --> 0:34:12.239 money in the best way that we can. 0:34:12.920 --> 0:34:15.680 What about since people are talking about hedging, how do 0:34:15.680 --> 0:34:20.080 you think about risk management? Are you looking at a 0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:24.160 series of small wins or is there sometimes hey, we're 0:34:24.160 --> 0:34:25.520 going to take a big bet because we have a 0:34:25.560 --> 0:34:26.520 lot of conviction here. 0:34:27.120 --> 0:34:30.360 So risk management is very much embedded in our process. 0:34:30.400 --> 0:34:32.560 So it's not an afterthought. It is something that we 0:34:32.560 --> 0:34:35.120 pay attention to. And clearly, you have to take risk 0:34:35.200 --> 0:34:37.359 if you're going to get gained. So but what our 0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:39.960 models try to do is take that the risks, the 0:34:40.080 --> 0:34:42.800 risks that are going to benefit us, and then manage 0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:46.360 the risks that are not. We tend to take a 0:34:46.400 --> 0:34:50.200 lot of singles and be consistent, but It depends on 0:34:50.239 --> 0:34:52.480 what our clients are looking for. So I say that 0:34:52.520 --> 0:34:54.640 with respect to our equity book, but then we have 0:34:55.200 --> 0:34:59.319 also we take much you know, larger bets with our 0:34:59.400 --> 0:35:02.120 Pigeono with war platform as well as if you're thinking 0:35:02.200 --> 0:35:05.520 about maybe a small cap investment versus a large cap investment. 0:35:05.840 --> 0:35:09.200 So it really goes up and down the gamut depending 0:35:09.239 --> 0:35:11.319 on what our clients are looking for, what their risk 0:35:11.440 --> 0:35:15.480 tolerances are. We try to solve for their risk needs. 0:35:15.600 --> 0:35:18.960 And again quants can do that pretty effectively because of 0:35:19.000 --> 0:35:19.680 their process. 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:27.720 So how big a differentiator is pgeum quantitative solutions to pgeum. Again, 0:35:27.760 --> 0:35:30.439 given the insurance background, I don't know of a lot 0:35:30.480 --> 0:35:35.040 of other large insurers whose financial arms are leaning this 0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:38.120 heavily into the quant side. 0:35:38.440 --> 0:35:41.960 I think it's a big differentiator for pgeum one. I 0:35:42.080 --> 0:35:45.000 just pGEM has one of, as you mentioned, one of 0:35:45.040 --> 0:35:48.080 the broadest asset management offerings out there, and I feel 0:35:48.080 --> 0:35:51.760 like quant is a very important component to the offering, 0:35:51.880 --> 0:35:55.680 especially how if you think about how technology is advancing 0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:57.880 and it's becoming more and more a part of our lives. 0:35:58.000 --> 0:36:01.920 AI is evolving, and we've been doing that for a 0:36:02.280 --> 0:36:04.839 long long time, So I think it's just natural to 0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:08.040 have a quant manager as part of your stable of offerings. 0:36:08.680 --> 0:36:11.760 But yes, I do believe that it's a differentiator for pechim. 0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:15.640 Really really intriguing. So there's a couple of quotes of 0:36:15.680 --> 0:36:17.919 yours that I have to ask about because they're kind 0:36:17.920 --> 0:36:23.440 of fascinating. Quote. Softer skills are more valuable than ever. 0:36:23.960 --> 0:36:27.360 They are what clients want. So first I have to ask, 0:36:27.960 --> 0:36:30.480 what do you mean by softer skills? Tell us about that. 0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:35.600 I often refer to softer skills when I'm talking about 0:36:36.360 --> 0:36:41.319 women in management. Actually, when you think about the ability 0:36:41.400 --> 0:36:45.799 to connect with people, to really listen to understand what 0:36:46.000 --> 0:36:50.680 their wants and needs are, that many people don't do that, 0:36:50.880 --> 0:36:54.320 and I feel like I feel as though softer skills, 0:36:54.400 --> 0:36:58.759 especially in this tech enabled environment, so in a hybrid environment, 0:36:59.040 --> 0:37:03.400 when you're streaming and dealing with people by zoom and 0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:06.520 teams and you're not seeing people in the hallway, these 0:37:06.560 --> 0:37:11.560 softer skills really really differentiate you. And one of the 0:37:11.600 --> 0:37:15.360 things that I've been doing as CEO during CODE or 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:17.680 what I did during COVID and I've continued to do now, 0:37:17.800 --> 0:37:21.319 is you lack that ability to run into people in 0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:24.440 the kitchen and to connect with them and really build 0:37:24.440 --> 0:37:28.520 a relationship, because I do believe that building relationships is 0:37:28.680 --> 0:37:32.760 important to building trust. Building trust is essential to building 0:37:32.760 --> 0:37:35.840 working relationships with your business partners. And so what I 0:37:35.840 --> 0:37:38.480 started doing was I started doing a video series. If 0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:43.080 you think carpool karaoke. I would drive my dog to 0:37:43.480 --> 0:37:46.479 the dog park in the mornings, and it was about 0:37:46.480 --> 0:37:48.279 a forty minute drive, and I would do a lot 0:37:48.280 --> 0:37:53.160 of reflecting and thinking about strategy, people, whatever I was 0:37:53.239 --> 0:37:55.319 doing at work, and instead of thinking about it, I 0:37:55.320 --> 0:37:57.840 thought I'm going to do some little video segments too minutes. 0:37:57.880 --> 0:37:59.319 Didn't really think about what I was going to say, 0:37:59.360 --> 0:38:02.320 just got on the and talked to the employees of 0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:06.000 our company. And I did that regularly, so they would 0:38:06.000 --> 0:38:07.920 know what I'm up to, what I'm thinking about. They 0:38:08.000 --> 0:38:10.960 knew a little about me personally, but they also knew 0:38:11.040 --> 0:38:14.400 what I was thinking about, what the management team was 0:38:14.400 --> 0:38:17.640 thinking about, and what we were up to. And that's 0:38:17.680 --> 0:38:23.080 an example of a softer skill that it's that ability 0:38:23.120 --> 0:38:25.360 to connect with people and to think about how you 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:28.120 can connect with people in different ways to build their 0:38:28.160 --> 0:38:30.040 trust and get to know you better. 0:38:30.960 --> 0:38:36.840 You mentioned the various hybrid work options that, especially what 0:38:36.920 --> 0:38:41.400 took place during the pandemic. Are you guys still operating 0:38:41.440 --> 0:38:43.920 on a hybrid basis and what does that do for you? 0:38:44.640 --> 0:38:46.920 We are, we're working in a hybrid three days in 0:38:46.960 --> 0:38:51.280 the office, two days work from home, and I believe 0:38:51.400 --> 0:38:54.319 that it's the best of both worlds because we have 0:38:54.440 --> 0:38:58.600 those three days to collaborate, to continue to get to 0:38:58.600 --> 0:39:01.680 know each other, to brains dorm and then we have 0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:05.720 two days that we can do heads down work, meaning 0:39:05.760 --> 0:39:08.440 the work from home days. And I also feel that 0:39:08.480 --> 0:39:12.719 we get a lot of credit for doing that with 0:39:12.760 --> 0:39:17.040 our employees, our employment. Our employees are happier in this environment. 0:39:17.200 --> 0:39:20.360 It's what they want, it's what they're getting used to. 0:39:20.440 --> 0:39:22.920 And I was just listening to actually Bloomberg this morning 0:39:22.960 --> 0:39:26.200 where they were talking about how the trains are getting 0:39:26.239 --> 0:39:31.520 busier and workplaces are going are changing their hybrid schedules. 0:39:31.600 --> 0:39:33.920 So I'll be interested to see what happens in the 0:39:34.000 --> 0:39:37.080 next year or so with respect to hybrid, but I 0:39:37.120 --> 0:39:39.360 think right now it's a pretty good balance. 0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:44.200 Does it help with employee retention and even new hires? 0:39:44.760 --> 0:39:48.800 It does. We've actually had certain people that wanted full 0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:53.440 work from home, which we don't do so it is 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:56.440 something that I believe companies need to do, they need 0:39:56.480 --> 0:39:59.080 to pay attention to that. I think our offices are 0:39:59.120 --> 0:40:05.000 in Newark, newt so hybrid is pretty appealing and I 0:40:05.000 --> 0:40:08.520 do think it's a differentiator, or maybe it's not even 0:40:08.560 --> 0:40:12.200 a differentiator. It might just be table stakes. 0:40:12.560 --> 0:40:14.880 Right Amongst the big banks, a lot of them have 0:40:15.000 --> 0:40:18.880 been gone back to JP Morgan, Chase, Goldman, Sachs, mongst On. 0:40:19.120 --> 0:40:21.239 A lot of these have gone back to five days 0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:25.120 in the office, and there's been some pushback, not so 0:40:25.280 --> 0:40:28.800 much from the young twenty somethings who really need to 0:40:28.840 --> 0:40:34.360 be immersed, but the slightly older generation late twenties, early thirties, 0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:38.319 who really know how to work remote right. 0:40:38.920 --> 0:40:41.759 I believe it's important for the younger generation because you 0:40:41.800 --> 0:40:43.600 want that mentoring. You want to be able to again 0:40:43.640 --> 0:40:45.560 run into people in the halls, get to know them, 0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:48.000 get to understand what they do, and I do think 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:52.479 that's important. I think flexibility is also important to many 0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:54.759 Many have either young kids at home, or they have 0:40:54.800 --> 0:40:58.319 ailing parents, or they have hobbies, or they just have 0:40:58.400 --> 0:41:03.800 wellness goals. So getting that balance right can be tricky. 0:41:03.880 --> 0:41:05.880 But this is again why I think the three days 0:41:05.960 --> 0:41:09.400 is a good balance. It's a nice way to solve 0:41:09.440 --> 0:41:13.319 for our employees' needs but also get the work done 0:41:13.400 --> 0:41:15.520 and build a culture. Building a culture. We haven't talked 0:41:15.600 --> 0:41:18.839 much about that, but one of the first things that 0:41:18.920 --> 0:41:21.840 I did when I took over as CEO was work 0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:25.520 with the employees to reset our values and then not 0:41:25.560 --> 0:41:29.200 only reset them, but then drive them home and live 0:41:29.280 --> 0:41:32.160 by them and make changes based on them. And I 0:41:32.200 --> 0:41:35.799 think that building that culture it's very, very difficult to 0:41:35.960 --> 0:41:39.040 do if you're in a fully worked from home environment. 0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:41.960 You know that makes that makes a lot of sense. 0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:47.560 Last quote of yours. You've talked a lot about leadership 0:41:47.719 --> 0:41:51.719 and diversity, especially when it comes to women in finance. 0:41:51.800 --> 0:41:56.200 Tell us a little bit about your thoughts about the 0:41:56.239 --> 0:42:02.000 best strategies for leading an industry that's spent so many 0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:04.680 decades as a male dominated bastion. 0:42:05.800 --> 0:42:10.160 Again, it's lean into those softer skills. I think it's 0:42:10.160 --> 0:42:13.960 a trifecta of opportunity right now for women. So you 0:42:14.080 --> 0:42:18.160 have companies and boards that are trying to increase their 0:42:18.160 --> 0:42:21.200 diversity stats, so they're more open to women in senior 0:42:21.280 --> 0:42:25.640 leadership positions. The hybrid work environment makes it easier for 0:42:25.800 --> 0:42:31.799 women that are balancing multiple, multiple different chores and responsibilities, 0:42:32.280 --> 0:42:35.239 and then you have the benefit of women having these 0:42:35.280 --> 0:42:38.840 softer skills that work in this new tech, tech enabled environment. 0:42:39.000 --> 0:42:43.720 So I think it's a great opportunity for women going forward. 0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:46.879 I think the issue really is the pipeline. And one 0:42:46.920 --> 0:42:49.600 of the things that I'm passionate about, and we're doing 0:42:49.640 --> 0:42:52.000 a lot with at pGEM quant is we're going out 0:42:52.040 --> 0:42:56.080 and doing community work. We're reaching out into the newer community, 0:42:56.080 --> 0:43:00.000 and we're working with kids as young as elementary school kids, 0:43:00.320 --> 0:43:04.719 so we're getting them interested in asset management. We're doing 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:08.680 things like shark Tank and job fares and things like 0:43:08.719 --> 0:43:12.040 that that are kind of mock job fares, and it's 0:43:12.120 --> 0:43:14.560 just been really rewarding for us because we have to 0:43:14.640 --> 0:43:17.600 start at such a young age. So these women and 0:43:17.760 --> 0:43:21.279 other diverse populations will continue to have an interest in 0:43:21.280 --> 0:43:22.120 asset management. 0:43:22.440 --> 0:43:25.560 You're playing a long game. You're planning seeds ten fifteen 0:43:25.640 --> 0:43:28.239 years in advance. Because none of this is going to 0:43:28.320 --> 0:43:29.959 pay off for a long time. 0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:33.319 We need to be patient as we invest for the 0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:37.000 long term. We need to be patient, but not complacent. 0:43:37.440 --> 0:43:40.759 Not complacent. So let's jump to our favorite questions that 0:43:40.800 --> 0:43:44.160 we ask all of our guests starting with Hey, what 0:43:44.320 --> 0:43:47.200 kept you entertained during the lockdown? What are you streaming 0:43:47.200 --> 0:43:47.720 these days? 0:43:49.040 --> 0:43:53.279 Gosh meaning streaming on television? 0:43:53.320 --> 0:43:58.239 Sure, television, podcast doesn't matter what whatever audio video is 0:43:58.400 --> 0:43:58.960 entertaining you. 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:04.280 So like documentaries, So what I was looking or watching 0:44:04.320 --> 0:44:08.879 this weekend was fantastic Fungi, which I highly recommend. This 0:44:08.920 --> 0:44:12.920 is all about the medicinal and healing properties of mushrooms. 0:44:13.880 --> 0:44:17.760 If one has ailing parents or is having health issues, 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:20.400 I highly encourage you to tune in. But it is 0:44:20.480 --> 0:44:26.600 also a beautifully beautifully filmed documentary. I also live on 0:44:26.640 --> 0:44:28.680 the Cape, so I had to you know, the shark 0:44:28.719 --> 0:44:31.399 population is booming, so I had to watch After the Bite, 0:44:31.400 --> 0:44:34.520 which is all about the shark population on Cape Cod. 0:44:35.520 --> 0:44:37.759 But other than that, as far as sort of more mainstream, 0:44:38.520 --> 0:44:42.320 I did like Ted Lasso very much. It was entertaining. 0:44:42.400 --> 0:44:45.080 You always got a good tidbit of knowledge, Like being 0:44:45.080 --> 0:44:50.759 an authentic leader, you know, lean into your insecurities. I 0:44:50.840 --> 0:44:54.800 never turned that off about picking up some little tidbit 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:59.680 of information. As far as podcasts, I get most of 0:44:59.680 --> 0:45:02.239 my new use by email feeds, so I tend to 0:45:02.280 --> 0:45:06.040 do that more as a hobby so I do. I'm 0:45:06.120 --> 0:45:09.799 very interested right now in longevity and health. So I 0:45:09.880 --> 0:45:14.400 listened to something called the Cabral Concept by doctor Stephen Cabral, 0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:17.640 which talks about all sorts of things. One of the 0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:21.400 things I was looking into was an infrared sana and 0:45:21.440 --> 0:45:24.320 a cold plunge. So my husband and I just recently 0:45:24.360 --> 0:45:25.840 purchased both of those things. 0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:28.760 I have a buddy who is crazy into the cold 0:45:28.800 --> 0:45:32.520 plunge and whatever that breathing technique is that you need 0:45:32.560 --> 0:45:36.240 to do, and I committed to doing a cold plunge 0:45:36.280 --> 0:45:39.719 next summer, so we'll see how that goes. I'm in 0:45:39.760 --> 0:45:44.440 the ocean every Memorial Day weekend. Wow, that's my cold 0:45:44.440 --> 0:45:47.279 plunge because that's like, you know, sixty degrees, but what 0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:50.759 these guys are talking about is high thirties, low forties, 0:45:50.880 --> 0:45:51.799 really really cool. 0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:54.799 Yeah, ours is forty nine degrees and it's cold. It 0:45:54.840 --> 0:45:57.759 takes about a minute and thirty seconds to numb up. 0:45:57.880 --> 0:46:01.799 So that's an interesting podcast. Asked for me, I do 0:46:03.000 --> 0:46:06.920 tune into this other podcast. It's called Your CEO Mentor. 0:46:06.960 --> 0:46:11.120 It's by the author of no book Leadership, and this 0:46:11.200 --> 0:46:14.480 individual's name's Martin Moore, and I totally skipped your conversation, 0:46:14.520 --> 0:46:17.640 your question about the AMP program, which is an advanced 0:46:17.640 --> 0:46:22.920 management program. It's an elite executive education program. But he 0:46:23.000 --> 0:46:24.640 was a buddy of mine at the a MP and 0:46:24.680 --> 0:46:26.919 he wrote a book on leadership. He was the CEO 0:46:27.000 --> 0:46:28.640 of a company and he wrote a book called No 0:46:28.719 --> 0:46:31.000 Book Leadership, and I of course read it out of 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:34.920 courtesy because I don't normally get a lot, frankly out 0:46:34.920 --> 0:46:38.440 of leadership books. It's very intuitive to me. But I 0:46:38.480 --> 0:46:42.120 got quite a few nuggets of information from this book. 0:46:42.239 --> 0:46:46.560 And he's just very entertaining and so I tuned into 0:46:46.600 --> 0:46:49.920 his podcasts frequently and I get little tidbits like it's 0:46:49.960 --> 0:47:00.320 about respect not popularity, it's about excellence not perfection, different 0:47:00.360 --> 0:47:03.160 things like that. It's just interesting and he's Australian, so 0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:04.680 he's really interesting to listen to. 0:47:04.920 --> 0:47:08.279 So you mentioned mentors, that's my next question. Who are 0:47:08.320 --> 0:47:10.840 your mentors who helped guide your career. 0:47:11.640 --> 0:47:15.080 I have one mentor. She was the lawyer that hired 0:47:15.120 --> 0:47:18.840 me for that job out of college. Her name is 0:47:18.840 --> 0:47:21.880 Molly Muggler and she worked with me my entire career, 0:47:21.920 --> 0:47:25.080 her entire career. She's now retired, so she hired me. 0:47:25.719 --> 0:47:28.120 I then became general counsel, I moved to old mutual, 0:47:28.160 --> 0:47:30.640 I brought her with me. And what was amazing about 0:47:30.640 --> 0:47:33.120 her is she believed in me before I did. She 0:47:33.200 --> 0:47:36.280 had such confidence and vision for me and my future, 0:47:36.719 --> 0:47:39.360 and she kept referring to herself as my sticky asset 0:47:39.400 --> 0:47:42.840 that she'd stay with me, but wasn't. What was inspiring 0:47:42.920 --> 0:47:46.600 about her is she's so intelligent, and she's such an 0:47:46.600 --> 0:47:50.400 accomplished lawyer. But at the same time she was militant 0:47:50.440 --> 0:47:54.360 about balancing her personal life and her professional life. She 0:47:54.680 --> 0:48:00.680 prioritized watercolor, painting and tennis equally with her job as 0:48:00.719 --> 0:48:04.919 a general counsel of a big firm. So to this day, 0:48:05.200 --> 0:48:08.320 I am still connected with her, and I'm still constantly 0:48:08.400 --> 0:48:09.200 inspired by her. 0:48:09.719 --> 0:48:12.560 That's interesting. Let's talk about books. What are some of 0:48:12.600 --> 0:48:14.439 your favorites. What are you reading right now? 0:48:15.840 --> 0:48:20.000 My nightstand is a bit eclectic right now. So I 0:48:20.040 --> 0:48:25.080 have again another book on longevity called out Living, which 0:48:25.120 --> 0:48:27.600 has again to do with health and longevity. I have 0:48:28.200 --> 0:48:32.400 the rain Barrel Effect, which is again about what you 0:48:32.480 --> 0:48:35.960 put into your body and how it affects again your 0:48:36.000 --> 0:48:39.640 health and longevity. But the real chakra on there is 0:48:40.080 --> 0:48:45.880 I believe it's called the Modern Textbook of Astrology. During COVID, 0:48:46.160 --> 0:48:49.600 I started thinking a lot about astrological charts and I 0:48:49.680 --> 0:48:52.520 found them fascinating and they are tied a lot to 0:48:52.600 --> 0:48:55.480 math and science, and they're very, very technical. And I 0:48:55.520 --> 0:48:57.400 had my chart read and I said, you know, i'd 0:48:57.440 --> 0:48:59.799 be interested in learning how to read charts. That doesn't 0:48:59.800 --> 0:49:02.279 see that hard? He said, oh, trust me, it's hard. 0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:04.000 He gave me the name of three books. He said, 0:49:04.040 --> 0:49:06.920 start reading and then get back to me. I might 0:49:06.960 --> 0:49:10.120 have to postpone that to retire because it is quite technical. 0:49:10.200 --> 0:49:14.400 It's very math forward, but it's uh, it's still interesting 0:49:15.320 --> 0:49:19.640 for fun. Recently, I've read The Lincoln Highway. I really liked. 0:49:20.200 --> 0:49:25.319 I loved. I think it's called beneath a Scarlets guy. 0:49:26.080 --> 0:49:27.800 What I like to do? Back when I was a lawyer, 0:49:27.800 --> 0:49:30.560 everybody would say, oh, have you read the most recent, 0:49:30.920 --> 0:49:34.160 you know, fiction book on law, you know Tom Clancy 0:49:34.239 --> 0:49:36.439 kind of stuff. And I just don't want to read 0:49:36.520 --> 0:49:38.480 things that I'm living. So I don't want to read 0:49:38.480 --> 0:49:40.640 books on investing. I don't want to read books on 0:49:40.680 --> 0:49:43.719 the law. I want to read books that transport me 0:49:43.800 --> 0:49:46.440 to another place in time where I can just learn 0:49:46.520 --> 0:49:49.880 about memoirs of a Geisha. Was you know interesting things 0:49:49.960 --> 0:49:52.440 like that. Just get out of my own head and 0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:55.160 think about something different. We do enough as a lawyer. 0:49:55.640 --> 0:49:58.839 Think about how much you have to read when you 0:49:58.960 --> 0:50:01.239 When I read, I want to for fun or for 0:50:01.520 --> 0:50:03.160 gaining knowledge of something different. 0:50:03.239 --> 0:50:07.359 Huh? Really interesting. Down to our final two questions, what 0:50:07.400 --> 0:50:09.880 sort of advice would you give to a recent college 0:50:09.920 --> 0:50:15.520 grad interested in a career in either investment, finance management 0:50:15.760 --> 0:50:16.160 or law. 0:50:16.760 --> 0:50:20.239 As we've been going through this podcast, I've realized the 0:50:20.320 --> 0:50:26.080 benefit that my legal profession has had on my management abilities. 0:50:26.320 --> 0:50:29.359 I never quite tied those two things together so much. 0:50:29.440 --> 0:50:32.400 The broad knowledge that you get from being a business 0:50:32.520 --> 0:50:37.440 lawyer is quite extreme. So depending on what that person's 0:50:37.480 --> 0:50:42.200 interest in interests are, I would say network, network, Network, 0:50:42.280 --> 0:50:45.120 It's all about talking to people and understanding what they 0:50:45.480 --> 0:50:49.080 do and understanding what's out there and really building relationships. 0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:52.400 That's really what it's about. That's what it's about in business, 0:50:52.440 --> 0:50:56.360 that's what it's about in dealing with clients, building relationships. 0:50:55.960 --> 0:51:00.319 It's just what it is about life. But it's very 0:51:00.320 --> 0:51:03.680 hard to make that decision. Again, I fell into my 0:51:03.880 --> 0:51:06.719 career and I'm pretty fortunate that I've had a lot 0:51:06.760 --> 0:51:10.520 of opportunities come my way. But I'm not somebody who 0:51:10.560 --> 0:51:13.080 says you need a goal and you need to follow it, 0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:15.960 because I think if you have blinders on for that 0:51:16.440 --> 0:51:19.000 one goal, that you're going to miss all of these 0:51:19.040 --> 0:51:21.680 other opportunities that can lead you in a direction that 0:51:22.160 --> 0:51:24.200 might be much more fruitful for you. 0:51:24.400 --> 0:51:27.480 Huh. Interesting. And our final question, what do you know 0:51:27.520 --> 0:51:30.600 about the world of investing today you wish you knew 0:51:31.160 --> 0:51:34.040 twenty five years or so ago when you were first 0:51:34.120 --> 0:51:34.920 getting started. 0:51:35.600 --> 0:51:37.719 Gosh, that one's more tricky for me. I feel like 0:51:37.760 --> 0:51:41.080 I was pretty informed back then. But if I can 0:51:41.160 --> 0:51:43.759 flip it on its head a little bit, maybe I'll 0:51:43.800 --> 0:51:46.000 answer it as to what advice would I give to 0:51:46.080 --> 0:51:50.080 those twenty somethings out there now, And I would say, 0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:54.840 understand the benefits of compounding, make sure you invest early, 0:51:54.960 --> 0:51:58.000 make sure you're diverse, and make sure you invest in 0:51:58.040 --> 0:52:01.480 your four to one K plan, because as much as 0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:04.680 it feels as though you can't afford that extra hundred 0:52:04.680 --> 0:52:07.960 dollars or ten dollars or one thousand dollars, it's just 0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:10.320 so important to start investing early. 0:52:10.719 --> 0:52:14.080 Yeah, not to say the very least that decade twenties 0:52:14.080 --> 0:52:17.040 to thirties makes a huge difference over forty years. 0:52:17.120 --> 0:52:18.560 Hey Tiz for sure. 0:52:18.680 --> 0:52:22.000 Linda, thank you for being so generous with your time. 0:52:22.719 --> 0:52:26.920 We have been speaking with Linda Gibson, CEO of Pigium 0:52:27.120 --> 0:52:31.719 Quantitative Solutions. If you enjoy this conversation, well, be sure 0:52:31.760 --> 0:52:34.160 and check out any of the previous five hundred or 0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:37.640 so we've done over the past nine years. You can 0:52:37.680 --> 0:52:42.399 find those at iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you find your 0:52:42.400 --> 0:52:46.120 favorite podcasts. Sign up for my daily reading list at 0:52:46.160 --> 0:52:49.560 ridults dot com. Follow me on Twitter at rid Holt's 0:52:50.000 --> 0:52:54.520 follow all of the Bloomberg Family of podcasts at podcast 0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:56.880 I would be remiss if I did not thank the 0:52:56.880 --> 0:53:00.680 correct team that helps put these conversations together each week. 0:53:01.239 --> 0:53:05.200 Sarah Livesey is my audio engineer. Attika Valbron is my 0:53:05.360 --> 0:53:10.160 project manager. Anna Luke is my producer. Sean Russo is 0:53:10.280 --> 0:53:15.040 my researcher. I'm Barry Riddolts. You've been listening to Master's 0:53:15.120 --> 0:53:18.480 Business on Bloomberg Radio.