WEBVTT - Hell and Gone Murder Line: Interview with Crime Scene Expert 0:00:08.285 --> 0:00:16.565 School of Humans. Over the past few weeks, we've been 0:00:16.565 --> 0:00:20.405 covering two cases in Arkansas, the murder of Gale Vaught, 0:00:20.565 --> 0:00:24.565 whose body was found on March seventeenth, nineteen eighty, and 0:00:24.605 --> 0:00:29.205 the strange death of Dennis Flowers. Police believed that Dennis 0:00:29.285 --> 0:00:32.645 was responsible for the execution style murders of Lee Dixon, 0:00:33.045 --> 0:00:35.685 a pharmacist who had become addicted to cocaine and started 0:00:35.725 --> 0:00:39.325 dealing it with Dennis and Lee's wife, Karen Dixon, who 0:00:39.405 --> 0:00:42.805 was eight months pregnant. A few days after the brutal 0:00:42.845 --> 0:00:47.725 double homicide, Dennis's body was found under extremely mysterious circumstances. 0:00:48.445 --> 0:00:51.005 The cause of death was listed as drowning in less 0:00:51.005 --> 0:00:53.485 than three feet of water, and the manner of death 0:00:53.565 --> 0:00:57.485 was listed as a suicide. One of the many questions 0:00:57.485 --> 0:00:59.885 that I see over and over that has come up 0:00:59.925 --> 0:01:03.645 in these cases and so many others, is were these 0:01:03.765 --> 0:01:07.485 crime scenes as they appeared to be or could they 0:01:07.565 --> 0:01:13.165 have been staged? I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the past five 0:01:13.285 --> 0:01:16.645 years of making my true crime podcast, Helen Gone, I've 0:01:16.725 --> 0:01:19.525 learned there's no such thing as a small town where 0:01:19.605 --> 0:01:23.765 murder never happens. I've received hundreds of messages from people 0:01:23.845 --> 0:01:26.725 all around the country asking for help with an unsolved 0:01:26.765 --> 0:01:30.805 murder that's affected them, their families, and their communities. If 0:01:30.845 --> 0:01:32.845 you have a case you'd like me and my team 0:01:32.885 --> 0:01:35.405 to look into, you can reach out to us at 0:01:35.405 --> 0:01:38.725 our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight seven 0:01:38.805 --> 0:01:42.245 four four, six one four or five. That's six seven 0:01:42.325 --> 0:01:46.765 eight seven four four six one four five. This is 0:01:46.805 --> 0:02:20.685 Helen Gone Murder Line. Now, as an investigator, I think 0:02:20.725 --> 0:02:22.965 one of the most valuable skills that I can have 0:02:23.645 --> 0:02:26.485 is knowing what I don't know, Because no matter how 0:02:26.485 --> 0:02:30.125 many autopsies I've seen, or cases I've covered, or episodes 0:02:30.165 --> 0:02:33.485 of forensic files that I've watched, I'm not a professional 0:02:33.485 --> 0:02:40.125 death investigator. So I decided to find one. I did 0:02:40.125 --> 0:02:42.645 this for another reason too, because I get so many 0:02:42.685 --> 0:02:45.925 emails and messages from people out there who have similar 0:02:45.965 --> 0:02:48.765 issues to the ones that Gail and Dennis's relatives have. 0:02:49.565 --> 0:02:51.845 These are people who have a death that they would 0:02:51.925 --> 0:02:56.725 like reinvestigated. Sometimes it's an unsolved murder. Other times it 0:02:56.805 --> 0:02:59.085 may be a death that was ruled a suicide where 0:02:59.085 --> 0:03:01.925 these family members don't believe that their loved one took 0:03:01.965 --> 0:03:05.325 their own life. I wanted to talk to an expert 0:03:05.325 --> 0:03:07.805 of out the way that they work, and I wanted 0:03:07.805 --> 0:03:10.045 to try and answer one of the biggest questions that 0:03:10.125 --> 0:03:14.285 we have in the Gail Vault case. Was Gale sexually assaulted? 0:03:15.005 --> 0:03:17.845 Or are the condom, condom wrapper, and gun box that 0:03:17.845 --> 0:03:21.045 were found near her body evidence that her crime scene 0:03:21.045 --> 0:03:25.325 could have been staged. This is Arthur Steve Chanceller, a 0:03:25.365 --> 0:03:28.405 death investigator who runs a company called Second Look Training 0:03:28.445 --> 0:03:33.205 in Forensic Consulting. They provide investigative and forensic case consultation 0:03:33.405 --> 0:03:34.005 and training. 0:03:36.125 --> 0:03:38.805 I have been in law enforcements for a little over 0:03:38.845 --> 0:03:42.405 fifty years. Spent a couple of years in the uniform, 0:03:42.525 --> 0:03:46.885 and then I transitioned to a special Agent detective with 0:03:47.045 --> 0:03:55.245 the Army Cromoal Investigation Division, which is similar to NCIS right, Okay, 0:03:55.365 --> 0:03:58.525 that's that's the TV. But yeah, it was very rewarding. 0:03:58.685 --> 0:04:01.445 It was a really good career. So I did DA 0:04:01.925 --> 0:04:04.645 for twenty years. I then retired. I went to work 0:04:05.085 --> 0:04:07.765 in a state to Mississippi or the crime Lab, doing 0:04:07.845 --> 0:04:11.965 homicide crime scenes all over the state. Then I transferred 0:04:12.005 --> 0:04:14.765 to the Bureau of Investigation and I created their cold 0:04:14.805 --> 0:04:18.405 case unit. And then after seven years the retirement, I 0:04:18.445 --> 0:04:21.965 went back to work with the Army CID as a civilian, 0:04:23.085 --> 0:04:26.325 so I spent you know, I spent about the last 0:04:26.365 --> 0:04:30.125 twelve years here at Fort Bragg. I was a supervisory 0:04:30.245 --> 0:04:35.445 especial agent, so I supervised about five different CID offices. 0:04:36.125 --> 0:04:41.125 So I've had a chance to work several hundred felony investigations, 0:04:41.325 --> 0:04:45.445 and over the course of my career, I've probably reviewed 0:04:46.085 --> 0:04:50.205 or helped supervise about ten balloton I'm lucky enough. I 0:04:50.245 --> 0:04:54.285 got a lot of really good experience, have a master's 0:04:54.285 --> 0:04:57.245 degree in criminal justice. I'm a graduate at the FBI 0:04:57.365 --> 0:05:02.805 National Academy. I've written a couple of textbooks on death 0:05:02.845 --> 0:05:09.725 investigations on state scenes and one on investigating sexual crimes. 0:05:10.285 --> 0:05:12.645 I'm under a contract right now to write another book 0:05:12.685 --> 0:05:14.325 about investigating the suicides. 0:05:15.845 --> 0:05:18.285 I tell Steve that we get a lot of calls 0:05:18.325 --> 0:05:22.765 about suicide cases. The case is like Dennis Flowers, where 0:05:22.765 --> 0:05:25.325 the death has been ruled a suicide, but circumstances at 0:05:25.365 --> 0:05:28.805 the crime scene make people believe that this person did 0:05:28.805 --> 0:05:31.765 not take their own life. And yet in so many 0:05:31.805 --> 0:05:35.485 of these cases, these deaths are very quickly ruled suicides. 0:05:36.165 --> 0:05:39.245 So I ask, what can families or other concerned citizens do. 0:05:40.085 --> 0:05:42.965 We're told to let the police do their job, but 0:05:43.125 --> 0:05:46.925 so often people feel as if they're walking a fine line. 0:05:47.085 --> 0:05:48.965 They want to know how they can help, how they 0:05:49.005 --> 0:05:52.685 cannot impede the police investigation, not annoy the police. But 0:05:52.845 --> 0:05:56.605 at the same time they want to be proactive, especially 0:05:56.605 --> 0:05:59.205 when they feel that in the case of a death investigation, 0:06:00.165 --> 0:06:02.645 they believe that things could be falling through the cracks 0:06:03.205 --> 0:06:05.405 or that law enforcement could just be going through. 0:06:06.325 --> 0:06:10.085 On our company website, which is a www. Second Look 0:06:10.125 --> 0:06:13.525 training dot Com, we actually have kind of a self 0:06:13.565 --> 0:06:20.565 paced PowerPoint presentation that is designed to help folks walk 0:06:21.285 --> 0:06:23.045 in all the path of how to deal, what to 0:06:23.125 --> 0:06:26.325 expect from the police, how to get answers from the police, 0:06:26.965 --> 0:06:29.805 how basically to work with the police and not be confrontational, 0:06:29.845 --> 0:06:31.725 and it's designed just to help families. 0:06:32.645 --> 0:06:35.685 I looked at the presentation on Steve's website and it's 0:06:35.845 --> 0:06:38.725 very helpful. One of the best tips that I saw 0:06:38.885 --> 0:06:41.125 was to make a note of any recent developments in 0:06:41.165 --> 0:06:44.125 the victim's life. For example, did they just leave a 0:06:44.165 --> 0:06:48.285 relationship where they arguing with someone about money. Write these 0:06:48.365 --> 0:06:51.445 down in bullet points, and write down the questions you 0:06:51.485 --> 0:06:53.725 have when you go to the police so that you're organized. 0:06:54.725 --> 0:06:57.445 It reminded me of when you go to the doctor's 0:06:57.525 --> 0:07:01.125 office and the doctor's giving you information. All these expert 0:07:01.125 --> 0:07:04.165 websites tell you to write down your questions. It seems 0:07:04.205 --> 0:07:08.325 like such an easy thing, but for example, I never 0:07:08.405 --> 0:07:10.245 do it, and I always walk out of the doctor's 0:07:10.245 --> 0:07:13.925 office feeling like I've forgotten something. I think that it's 0:07:13.965 --> 0:07:16.245 a good idea when you are talking to the police 0:07:16.805 --> 0:07:20.485 to bring a friend with you and either you or 0:07:20.525 --> 0:07:25.765 the person you're with to document everything. Again, we're looking 0:07:25.885 --> 0:07:29.405 at Gail's pattern of life, and any changes in regular 0:07:29.525 --> 0:07:33.725 routine should be noted. The website said something else that 0:07:33.765 --> 0:07:37.285 I think is super important when you're talking to law enforcement. 0:07:37.805 --> 0:07:41.485 It is super important to stick to facts, not opinions. 0:07:41.925 --> 0:07:43.965 This is something that I try to follow myself when 0:07:44.005 --> 0:07:46.765 I'm reporting on a case. I know it's easy to 0:07:46.765 --> 0:07:49.925 get sidetracked by following a theory just because of the 0:07:49.925 --> 0:07:52.485 way our minds work. Even if we are really objective, 0:07:52.885 --> 0:07:55.765 we want to try to make that evidence fit your theory. 0:07:56.245 --> 0:07:58.485 But at the end of the day, I'm an investigator. 0:07:58.605 --> 0:08:02.445 It's all about examining facts, going from the crime scene 0:08:02.805 --> 0:08:04.165 and working our way backwards. 0:08:04.685 --> 0:08:09.805 Unfortunately, suicigns. Typically what happens, and I'm talking you know, 0:08:09.925 --> 0:08:12.685 ninety five percent of the time, I can almost guarantee 0:08:12.685 --> 0:08:15.125 you what happens, and that is the police will come 0:08:15.165 --> 0:08:18.925 to the scene. If everything looks like they think it 0:08:19.005 --> 0:08:22.245 should look, that case is closed out, probably in one 0:08:22.365 --> 0:08:26.485 or two days. There are multiple cases that I've worked 0:08:26.485 --> 0:08:31.005 that they didn't even do an autopsy. So they come in, 0:08:31.445 --> 0:08:34.685 they do what I describe is the bobblehead to come 0:08:34.725 --> 0:08:38.125 in to kind of nod, look around and what should 0:08:38.205 --> 0:08:41.925 be required as an investigation, and that ends up being 0:08:41.925 --> 0:08:44.405 a three or four page report. 0:08:45.405 --> 0:08:49.125 The sad thing is evidence can be lost, and Steve 0:08:49.205 --> 0:08:51.885 explains that even in a best case scenario, if a 0:08:51.925 --> 0:08:55.525 company like his is able to find evidence, even what 0:08:55.565 --> 0:08:58.405 they believe to be definitive evidence, at the end of 0:08:58.405 --> 0:09:00.645 the day, it's up to the police whether or not 0:09:00.685 --> 0:09:04.525 to pursue it, and often the reality is they don't. 0:09:04.885 --> 0:09:09.365 What a frustrating, however, is we have reviewed a case. 0:09:10.565 --> 0:09:13.285 We concurred with the family that there is no way 0:09:13.325 --> 0:09:18.365 that this was a suicide, and we actually found forensic 0:09:18.405 --> 0:09:23.005 evidence in the form of bloodstain analysis that showed that 0:09:23.285 --> 0:09:27.525 after the victim had been shot and injured. Her hand 0:09:27.605 --> 0:09:31.285 had been moved and replaced, so we were able to 0:09:31.325 --> 0:09:36.405 show that to the police and they've done nothing. It's 0:09:36.405 --> 0:09:40.005 extremely frustrating for the families, you know, if nothing else 0:09:40.085 --> 0:09:43.365 just confirmed that it is a suicide. But sure the thought, 0:09:44.165 --> 0:09:47.805 the thought process to the cops is suicide is not 0:09:47.845 --> 0:09:52.485 a criminal offense, right, so if it looks like it's 0:09:52.525 --> 0:09:55.005 a suicide, basically we're not going to waste any time 0:09:55.045 --> 0:09:55.365 on it. 0:09:56.405 --> 0:09:58.885 Yeah, that's really unfortunate. 0:09:59.925 --> 0:10:03.365 I can tell you I have reopened the suicide, improved 0:10:03.365 --> 0:10:09.885 this a murder. Well, we talked to the family and 0:10:09.925 --> 0:10:14.725 somebody came forward with the new information. The difference is 0:10:15.165 --> 0:10:18.605 just happened in the military. But in the military, the 0:10:18.765 --> 0:10:23.845 Army Cide did a complete crime scene examination, a complete 0:10:24.045 --> 0:10:28.205 laboratory analysis. So when I went in to reopen, I 0:10:28.245 --> 0:10:30.645 actually had a lot of stuff to work with, had 0:10:30.685 --> 0:10:34.765 good scene photographs and stuff like that. The only thing 0:10:34.925 --> 0:10:38.125 is that even if I give you an outstanding report, 0:10:38.445 --> 0:10:41.765 what's going to happen? Because I just told you about 0:10:41.765 --> 0:10:44.925 the case we had, but we actually had forensic evidence. 0:10:44.965 --> 0:10:49.245 My partner is a bloodstain expert, so he identified a 0:10:49.285 --> 0:10:53.725 bloodstain that was peer reviewed by another bloodstain expert which 0:10:53.725 --> 0:10:56.765 said the same thing. Yet absolutely this hand was moved, 0:10:57.805 --> 0:11:00.085 and the police just shrugged it off, like dam they 0:11:00.085 --> 0:11:00.485 don't care. 0:11:07.405 --> 0:11:11.045 We start talking about Gail's case. I tell Steve about 0:11:11.045 --> 0:11:13.765 the condom that was lost and about the fact that 0:11:13.805 --> 0:11:16.685 a number of tests weren't done that I believe could 0:11:16.725 --> 0:11:19.565 have more definitively answered the question about time of death 0:11:19.645 --> 0:11:22.845 and possibly whether or not Gail's body had been moved, 0:11:23.405 --> 0:11:26.645 including insect activity, which I did not see on the 0:11:26.645 --> 0:11:30.285 autopsy report. Steve said he also noted that the lack 0:11:30.325 --> 0:11:34.485 of insect activity being documented, and I asked him about 0:11:34.485 --> 0:11:37.285 one of the most crucial elements of this case, Gail's 0:11:37.325 --> 0:11:38.005 time of death. 0:11:39.125 --> 0:11:41.605 This is an example will be called tunnel vision, and 0:11:41.685 --> 0:11:46.805 that is I've identified the suspect. So don't confuse me 0:11:46.845 --> 0:11:48.845 with the facts that leads me to anywhere else. 0:11:50.205 --> 0:11:55.445 Because remember, Gail's boyfriend, Ray was basically never charged, largely 0:11:55.525 --> 0:11:57.925 due to the fact that police believed Gail had been 0:11:57.965 --> 0:12:00.805 killed the night before. But as we said in last 0:12:00.805 --> 0:12:04.325 week's episode, I believe that the evidence points to the 0:12:04.365 --> 0:12:07.685 possibility that Gail's could have been killed later early in 0:12:07.725 --> 0:12:11.485 the morning on March seventeenth. That would explain why parts 0:12:11.525 --> 0:12:14.645 of her body were still warm, and why rigor mortis 0:12:14.685 --> 0:12:17.525 had begun in her face but not progressed down her body. 0:12:18.045 --> 0:12:21.325 We also talk about the rain, and this is why 0:12:21.365 --> 0:12:24.405 I love talking to experts, because Steve found things that 0:12:24.445 --> 0:12:28.365 I didn't see. I mentioned in last week's episode that 0:12:29.045 --> 0:12:31.245 one of the reasons I believed why Gail had been 0:12:31.325 --> 0:12:34.445 killed later than the police believed was because of the 0:12:34.485 --> 0:12:38.045 tire tracks. The tire tracks were very detailed, and in 0:12:38.085 --> 0:12:41.125 the police report it was noted that there had been 0:12:41.205 --> 0:12:45.485 rained the night before, torrential rain at around two am. 0:12:45.765 --> 0:12:48.925 But Steve pointed out that in the autopsy report there 0:12:48.965 --> 0:12:52.125 was some conflict about whether the rain had started at 0:12:52.125 --> 0:12:55.125 two am or ended at two am, which could potentially 0:12:55.285 --> 0:12:56.205 be very important. 0:12:56.605 --> 0:13:00.045 There were some conflicting information. Was it a torrential rain 0:13:00.125 --> 0:13:03.245 at two o'clock or did it stop raining at two o'clock, 0:13:03.725 --> 0:13:05.885 So there's real conflict, that's what I mean. So that 0:13:06.165 --> 0:13:07.845 would be some of the stuff that I would have 0:13:07.965 --> 0:13:12.045 to check out because the body was the was wet. Now, 0:13:12.085 --> 0:13:15.045 some of the things that I noticed, first of all, 0:13:16.685 --> 0:13:20.325 the gunshot, probably a small caliber twenty two or twenty five, 0:13:20.445 --> 0:13:24.845 probably not anything heavier, but it never penetrated the skull, 0:13:25.725 --> 0:13:28.725 so it kind of slid along. Okay, which is good. Now, 0:13:28.805 --> 0:13:32.645 it did cost some bruising contusions to the brain and 0:13:32.925 --> 0:13:37.165 some skull fractures, but it didn't end the brain. So 0:13:37.325 --> 0:13:41.885 clearly she was killed by being run over. Okay. Now, 0:13:42.845 --> 0:13:45.845 the thing that I caught that really caught my attention, however, 0:13:46.045 --> 0:13:50.525 is the medical examiner investigator I think is who it is, 0:13:51.085 --> 0:13:53.045 or the assistant one of them is out there, makes 0:13:53.045 --> 0:13:57.365 an observation how she is described lying in the ground 0:13:57.685 --> 0:14:01.245 on her right side, shoulders down. That she said that 0:14:01.325 --> 0:14:04.685 it looks like her right foot had moved back and forth. 0:14:04.725 --> 0:14:08.445 So that's important because that tells me that she was 0:14:08.485 --> 0:14:12.685 probably killed right in that spot. Maybe not shots, but 0:14:12.925 --> 0:14:18.085 killed in that spot. Yeah. Now I'm going to kind 0:14:18.125 --> 0:14:20.125 of go off subject just a little bit because one 0:14:20.165 --> 0:14:24.045 of the things that I looked at I've been scratching 0:14:24.045 --> 0:14:28.325 my head, and that is her pants are down, but 0:14:28.365 --> 0:14:31.005 they're not all the way off, so they. 0:14:30.885 --> 0:14:33.165 Were it said that her clothes they found her clothes 0:14:33.165 --> 0:14:35.565 twenty ten feet away or twenty feet away in the bushes. 0:14:35.925 --> 0:14:39.205 Well, but there's conflicting information because there's another report that 0:14:39.365 --> 0:14:42.965 said her pants was around her, around her ankles. So 0:14:43.125 --> 0:14:44.805 you saw there there's a conflict. 0:14:45.885 --> 0:14:46.845 Yeah, I didn't notice that. 0:14:48.605 --> 0:14:51.165 We discussed the fact that, according to the police report, 0:14:51.685 --> 0:14:54.125 Gail's clothing was found several feet away from her in 0:14:54.165 --> 0:14:57.725 the woods. Steve says that in the autopsy report there's 0:14:57.805 --> 0:15:01.085 also a reference to her pants being around her ankles. 0:15:01.685 --> 0:15:03.965 In the crime scene photos, Gail is naked from the 0:15:04.005 --> 0:15:07.765 waist down, so this is probably a mistake unless someone 0:15:07.805 --> 0:15:11.645 took her pants off at the crime scene, which seems unbelievable. 0:15:12.125 --> 0:15:15.605 But then again, this is a strange case. Steve and 0:15:15.645 --> 0:15:19.365 I talk again about crime scene staging. Gail doesn't appear 0:15:19.365 --> 0:15:21.445 to have been hit with the car, and she doesn't 0:15:21.445 --> 0:15:25.525 have defensive wounds on her hands. So was she forced 0:15:25.565 --> 0:15:28.205 out of the car at gunpoint or could she have 0:15:28.245 --> 0:15:31.125 been shot somewhere else and then her killer took her 0:15:31.125 --> 0:15:33.805 body out to dump her in the woods. Could they 0:15:33.845 --> 0:15:36.885 at that point have realized that Gail was still alive 0:15:37.005 --> 0:15:39.285 and decided to stage a sexual assault to throw off 0:15:39.285 --> 0:15:40.125 the investigators. 0:15:40.605 --> 0:15:42.805 So one of the things that I will tell you 0:15:42.845 --> 0:15:47.325 that I started looking at is one of the most 0:15:47.805 --> 0:15:52.045 popular themes to use when you stage the scene is 0:15:52.405 --> 0:15:57.445 the sexual assault of sexual homicide. Right, So, I mean 0:15:57.485 --> 0:15:59.525 I started looking at that, and I'm thinking, you know, 0:15:59.565 --> 0:16:04.965 I have to me, this is so odd that she's 0:16:05.005 --> 0:16:09.285 clearly but she wasn't dumped out of the car. She 0:16:09.365 --> 0:16:11.805 wasn't thrown down because she doesn't have any of the 0:16:11.885 --> 0:16:15.005 contusions or she doesn't have any of the upraisings that 0:16:15.045 --> 0:16:18.365 I would expect that she had been pushed out right, 0:16:18.605 --> 0:16:21.845 I'm not seeing that. So and the other thing is 0:16:21.845 --> 0:16:24.285 is I always the hair on the back of my 0:16:24.365 --> 0:16:26.725 neck stands up every time I feel like I'm being 0:16:26.765 --> 0:16:30.005 led down a path. Because if this is the guy 0:16:30.045 --> 0:16:32.285 and he's a sexual offender and he's out and he's 0:16:32.325 --> 0:16:34.285 gonna kill this girl, then why does he leave a 0:16:34.325 --> 0:16:35.005 condom behind? 0:16:36.005 --> 0:16:39.845 Yeah, I mean, I I agree. I have seen people 0:16:39.925 --> 0:16:42.365 do dumb things. But then on the on the flip side, 0:16:42.485 --> 0:16:44.965 or the condom could have been totally unrelated. It could 0:16:44.925 --> 0:16:46.685 have just been out there, maybe some people talking up 0:16:46.685 --> 0:16:47.045 out there. 0:16:47.125 --> 0:16:50.805 Well, yeah, exactly, And that's the other that's the other possibility. 0:16:51.165 --> 0:16:54.685 But then we have she's undressed, but there's really no 0:16:54.765 --> 0:16:57.365 indication of recent sexual activity. 0:16:57.645 --> 0:16:59.725 No, I think in the in the report, it said 0:16:59.965 --> 0:17:02.325 she had had sex with her boyfriend like two nights earlier, 0:17:02.325 --> 0:17:03.525 and that would have been consistent with that. 0:17:03.605 --> 0:17:06.405 I mean, yeah, exactly, because so that that could be 0:17:06.445 --> 0:17:09.765 present for up to ninety six hours. So I'm sitting 0:17:09.765 --> 0:17:11.125 here and I'm looking at it, and I said, you know, 0:17:11.245 --> 0:17:15.205 I know about sex offenders, and I said, this doesn't 0:17:15.365 --> 0:17:18.885 This doesn't pass the common sense test that some sexual 0:17:18.885 --> 0:17:22.765 offender has this girl and he can do whatever he wants, 0:17:23.245 --> 0:17:26.845 but he doesn't do anything. Now, there are offenders that 0:17:26.965 --> 0:17:29.845 might kill her and then maybe masturbate over her. Now 0:17:30.765 --> 0:17:36.965 that there, Yeah, exactly. And I don't see any elements 0:17:37.005 --> 0:17:41.205 of her being no bondage. I don't see any indication 0:17:41.365 --> 0:17:44.125 that she was anally assaulted, which is something else I 0:17:44.165 --> 0:17:47.765 would expect for those type of offenders who do that. Yeah, 0:17:48.765 --> 0:17:52.925 So I'm sitting here scratching my head that I don't 0:17:52.965 --> 0:17:57.125 know if you're dealing with the true sexual offender are 0:17:57.205 --> 0:17:59.765 someone who's trying to make it look like a sexual offender. 0:18:00.605 --> 0:18:03.485 We're split on whether this could be a staged crime 0:18:03.525 --> 0:18:08.165 scene or just a panic sex offender. Steve asked me 0:18:08.245 --> 0:18:11.165 more about the location where Gaile's body was found, which 0:18:11.205 --> 0:18:15.565 is another extremely odd factor in this case, because why 0:18:15.605 --> 0:18:18.125 would gles kill her not leave her in the woods? 0:18:18.165 --> 0:18:21.045 They were surrounded by these very dense woods and trees. 0:18:21.765 --> 0:18:23.685 Why did they choose to dump her out in the 0:18:23.685 --> 0:18:27.045 middle of a road. Did they panic and have to 0:18:27.125 --> 0:18:30.365 leave quickly? Or could this have been an indication they 0:18:30.405 --> 0:18:31.685 wanted her body to be found? 0:18:32.565 --> 0:18:35.325 You have to look at us. When was the body 0:18:35.365 --> 0:18:38.765 actually found, because that's when you need to start working 0:18:38.765 --> 0:18:39.445 yourself back. 0:18:39.805 --> 0:18:41.925 Well around just after ten am was when it was 0:18:41.925 --> 0:18:43.725 found and the cops were there by like ten thirty. 0:18:44.085 --> 0:18:46.565 And I guess that's not a very well traveled road. 0:18:47.845 --> 0:18:49.125 No it's not. 0:18:49.245 --> 0:18:51.725 It was a back road off of a off of 0:18:51.765 --> 0:18:54.165 a two lane highway. But no, it's a back dirt road. 0:18:54.685 --> 0:18:56.005 To eat APU kind of know where it was. 0:18:56.205 --> 0:19:00.125 It's like a logging road. Okay. How far away from 0:19:00.205 --> 0:19:00.845 her residence? 0:19:01.805 --> 0:19:04.925 About three miles little less than three miles, so yeah. 0:19:04.965 --> 0:19:07.005 And then the other thing is if this is a 0:19:07.005 --> 0:19:10.885 stranger doing all this, then what I would expect if 0:19:10.925 --> 0:19:14.485 this was a stranger, that after the incident, they would 0:19:14.485 --> 0:19:16.525 have taken her to the next county or something like that, 0:19:16.565 --> 0:19:18.045 and done it not right there? 0:19:18.845 --> 0:19:21.445 Yeah, it is weird, Yeah, really weird. 0:19:22.045 --> 0:19:27.805 Yeah, so it has I mean there was interesting, interesting, 0:19:28.165 --> 0:19:29.445 interesting case for sure. 0:19:30.805 --> 0:19:34.605 So what do we know for sure? Gail was almost 0:19:34.645 --> 0:19:37.685 certainly shot before she was run over, because it was 0:19:37.725 --> 0:19:41.565 being run over that killed her. Steve said that, in 0:19:41.605 --> 0:19:45.285 his opinion, Gail's wounds indicate that she was run over 0:19:45.405 --> 0:19:48.445 by a vehicle with a higher undercarriage, one that was 0:19:48.525 --> 0:19:51.245 higher off the ground. Steve said it could have been 0:19:51.245 --> 0:19:55.405 a jeep which Gail drove, or a pickup truck. Remember 0:19:55.485 --> 0:19:57.925 last week we talked to the former sheriff, Herb Marshall. 0:19:58.605 --> 0:20:01.045 He told us that he believed Gail had been run 0:20:01.045 --> 0:20:02.005 over in her own jeep. 0:20:02.405 --> 0:20:04.925 Well, you know, she may have gone out there and 0:20:05.565 --> 0:20:08.645 or to you know, maybe regain consciousness, or maybe she 0:20:08.725 --> 0:20:13.005 never lost consciousness, because remember, I mean, it's just like 0:20:13.005 --> 0:20:16.605 like a like a big concussion, okay, is the type 0:20:16.605 --> 0:20:20.605 of injuries Okay, And then they get out there and 0:20:20.605 --> 0:20:22.605 and he figures out, shit, I got to do something 0:20:22.845 --> 0:20:26.685 or else. He's not struggling, right, I am imagining, takes 0:20:26.685 --> 0:20:28.885 her out on the road and just lips your pants 0:20:28.925 --> 0:20:33.325 off and runs over it. Now, the other thing that 0:20:33.405 --> 0:20:36.605 I did see with some of the autopsy photographs that 0:20:36.805 --> 0:20:39.925 are not great, but they're okay. I think you're looking 0:20:39.965 --> 0:20:43.245 at a pickup truck rather than a car. Hmm. 0:20:44.445 --> 0:20:47.205 Interesting. The police think her deep and I don't know 0:20:47.285 --> 0:20:48.165 where they got that from. 0:20:48.205 --> 0:20:50.685 I don't they don't know that well anything that's the 0:20:50.765 --> 0:20:54.885 higher that the body is higher off the ground, because 0:20:55.445 --> 0:20:58.205 what I what I didn't see. And I've seen bodies 0:20:58.205 --> 0:21:01.605 that are hit by cars, you know, the body runs 0:21:01.605 --> 0:21:04.365 into the the undercarriage and there's all kinds of nicks 0:21:04.365 --> 0:21:08.045 and scratches and stuff like that. And I didn't see anything, 0:21:08.085 --> 0:21:14.565 although I did find some pattern injuries. And what I'm 0:21:14.605 --> 0:21:17.725 looking at this at is you know, this is to me, 0:21:18.205 --> 0:21:24.085 these are caused by her laying across or laying on something. 0:21:25.405 --> 0:21:29.765 Well interesting, Yeah, it's on her lower I think left leg. 0:21:29.925 --> 0:21:33.125 Would that have been like something in that road or something? 0:21:33.205 --> 0:21:35.005 Or do you think or do you think someone shot 0:21:35.045 --> 0:21:36.085 her and then took her out there? 0:21:36.685 --> 0:21:40.325 Yeah? I think she was shot somewhere else, quite honestly, 0:21:41.045 --> 0:21:43.845 I mean maybe not. I don't know. I don't have 0:21:43.885 --> 0:21:45.605 her clothing, so I don't know if there's any blood 0:21:45.645 --> 0:21:46.325 own her clothing. 0:21:47.045 --> 0:21:50.005 I remember that there were no pictures of Gail's clothing, 0:21:50.605 --> 0:21:53.645 but the police report indicated that her clothes had been 0:21:53.685 --> 0:21:55.805 thrown in the woods about ten feet from her body. 0:21:56.405 --> 0:21:58.765 Her underwear and jeans were balled up as if they 0:21:58.765 --> 0:22:01.685 had been pulled off together, and there was fecal matter 0:22:01.725 --> 0:22:05.605 in her underwear. This next part is a little bit upsetting, 0:22:05.605 --> 0:22:08.445 but we have to examine the forensic evidence, so I'm 0:22:08.485 --> 0:22:11.685 just going to plow forward. It was noted in the 0:22:11.765 --> 0:22:14.685 report the police thought that, due to the fact that 0:22:14.725 --> 0:22:18.605 there was no feces smeared on Gail's buttocks, they believe 0:22:18.685 --> 0:22:21.205 the feces was expelled when she was run over by 0:22:21.205 --> 0:22:24.125 the vehicle, rather than, for example, when she was shot 0:22:24.125 --> 0:22:26.685 in the head. This is one of the reasons why 0:22:26.765 --> 0:22:29.685 police believe Gail was shot before she was run over. 0:22:30.725 --> 0:22:33.685 But when I talked to Steve, he believes that the 0:22:33.725 --> 0:22:37.205 evidence points to Gail's clothing being stripped off before she 0:22:37.325 --> 0:22:38.485 was run over, not after. 0:22:38.925 --> 0:22:41.125 I would think it would be possible that, you know, 0:22:41.965 --> 0:22:43.685 after you were shot in the head, that would happen. 0:22:44.605 --> 0:22:50.245 Yeah, but yeah, I mean it's that you know that 0:22:50.285 --> 0:22:52.805 got a aweso because it is a I awakened and 0:22:52.885 --> 0:22:58.765 experience as you might imagine, Yeah, being run over first 0:22:58.765 --> 0:23:02.325 and then the pants off, I suppose, but you know, 0:23:02.445 --> 0:23:05.485 with her broken pelvis, that may have been a little 0:23:05.685 --> 0:23:06.845 bit more difficult. 0:23:08.005 --> 0:23:10.125 Yeah, it seems like it'd be difficult to take off. 0:23:10.325 --> 0:23:12.005 And if they had to and if you do type 0:23:12.085 --> 0:23:15.085 tight jeans or tighter jeans off a girl, right, you're 0:23:15.125 --> 0:23:17.285 going to move things in a certain way, you know. There, 0:23:17.445 --> 0:23:21.005 I don't know, right, Yeah, it's so sad. I mean, 0:23:21.005 --> 0:23:23.245 the whole thing is actually I think about it a 0:23:23.245 --> 0:23:25.205 lot because I can't imagine a worse death. Really, it 0:23:25.285 --> 0:23:25.885 means horrible. 0:23:25.885 --> 0:23:29.485 Oh yeah, oh no, absolutely, you know, especially if it's 0:23:29.565 --> 0:23:31.765