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Speaker 1: School of Humans. Over the past few weeks, we've been

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Speaker 1: covering two cases in Arkansas, the murder of Gale Vaught,

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Speaker 1: whose body was found on March seventeenth, nineteen eighty, and

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Speaker 1: the strange death of Dennis Flowers. Police believed that Dennis

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Speaker 1: was responsible for the execution style murders of Lee Dixon,

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Speaker 1: a pharmacist who had become addicted to cocaine and started

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Speaker 1: dealing it with Dennis and Lee's wife, Karen Dixon, who

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Speaker 1: was eight months pregnant. A few days after the brutal

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Speaker 1: double homicide, Dennis's body was found under extremely mysterious circumstances.

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Speaker 1: The cause of death was listed as drowning in less

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Speaker 1: than three feet of water, and the manner of death

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Speaker 1: was listed as a suicide. One of the many questions

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Speaker 1: that I see over and over that has come up

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Speaker 1: in these cases and so many others, is were these

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Speaker 1: crime scenes as they appeared to be or could they

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Speaker 1: have been staged? I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the past five

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Speaker 1: years of making my true crime podcast, Helen Gone, I've

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Speaker 1: learned there's no such thing as a small town where

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Speaker 1: murder never happens. I've received hundreds of messages from people

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Speaker 1: all around the country asking for help with an unsolved

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Speaker 1: murder that's affected them, their families, and their communities. If

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Speaker 1: you have a case you'd like me and my team

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Speaker 1: to look into, you can reach out to us at

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Speaker 1: our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight seven

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Speaker 1: four four, six one four or five. That's six seven

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Speaker 1: eight seven four four six one four five. This is

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Speaker 1: Helen Gone Murder Line. Now, as an investigator, I think

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Speaker 1: one of the most valuable skills that I can have

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Speaker 1: is knowing what I don't know, Because no matter how

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Speaker 1: many autopsies I've seen, or cases I've covered, or episodes

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Speaker 1: of forensic files that I've watched, I'm not a professional

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Speaker 1: death investigator. So I decided to find one. I did

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Speaker 1: this for another reason too, because I get so many

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Speaker 1: emails and messages from people out there who have similar

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Speaker 1: issues to the ones that Gail and Dennis's relatives have.

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Speaker 1: These are people who have a death that they would

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Speaker 1: like reinvestigated. Sometimes it's an unsolved murder. Other times it

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Speaker 1: may be a death that was ruled a suicide where

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Speaker 1: these family members don't believe that their loved one took

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Speaker 1: their own life. I wanted to talk to an expert

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Speaker 1: of out the way that they work, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to try and answer one of the biggest questions that

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Speaker 1: we have in the Gail Vault case. Was Gale sexually assaulted?

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Speaker 1: Or are the condom, condom wrapper, and gun box that

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Speaker 1: were found near her body evidence that her crime scene

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Speaker 1: could have been staged. This is Arthur Steve Chanceller, a

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Speaker 1: death investigator who runs a company called Second Look Training

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Speaker 1: in Forensic Consulting. They provide investigative and forensic case consultation

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Speaker 1: and training.

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Speaker 2: I have been in law enforcements for a little over

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Speaker 2: fifty years. Spent a couple of years in the uniform,

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Speaker 2: and then I transitioned to a special Agent detective with

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Speaker 2: the Army Cromoal Investigation Division, which is similar to NCIS right, Okay,

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Speaker 2: that's that's the TV. But yeah, it was very rewarding.

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Speaker 2: It was a really good career. So I did DA

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Speaker 2: for twenty years. I then retired. I went to work

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Speaker 2: in a state to Mississippi or the crime Lab, doing

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Speaker 2: homicide crime scenes all over the state. Then I transferred

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Speaker 2: to the Bureau of Investigation and I created their cold

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Speaker 2: case unit. And then after seven years the retirement, I

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Speaker 2: went back to work with the Army CID as a civilian,

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Speaker 2: so I spent you know, I spent about the last

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Speaker 2: twelve years here at Fort Bragg. I was a supervisory

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Speaker 2: especial agent, so I supervised about five different CID offices.

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Speaker 2: So I've had a chance to work several hundred felony investigations,

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Speaker 2: and over the course of my career, I've probably reviewed

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Speaker 2: or helped supervise about ten balloton I'm lucky enough. I

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Speaker 2: got a lot of really good experience, have a master's

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Speaker 2: degree in criminal justice. I'm a graduate at the FBI

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Speaker 2: National Academy. I've written a couple of textbooks on death

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Speaker 2: investigations on state scenes and one on investigating sexual crimes.

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Speaker 2: I'm under a contract right now to write another book

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Speaker 2: about investigating the suicides.

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Speaker 1: I tell Steve that we get a lot of calls

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Speaker 1: about suicide cases. The case is like Dennis Flowers, where

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Speaker 1: the death has been ruled a suicide, but circumstances at

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Speaker 1: the crime scene make people believe that this person did

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Speaker 1: not take their own life. And yet in so many

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Speaker 1: of these cases, these deaths are very quickly ruled suicides.

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Speaker 1: So I ask, what can families or other concerned citizens do.

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Speaker 1: We're told to let the police do their job, but

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Speaker 1: so often people feel as if they're walking a fine line.

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Speaker 1: They want to know how they can help, how they

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Speaker 1: cannot impede the police investigation, not annoy the police. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time they want to be proactive, especially

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Speaker 1: when they feel that in the case of a death investigation,

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Speaker 1: they believe that things could be falling through the cracks

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Speaker 1: or that law enforcement could just be going through.

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Speaker 2: On our company website, which is a www. Second Look

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Speaker 2: training dot Com, we actually have kind of a self

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Speaker 2: paced PowerPoint presentation that is designed to help folks walk

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Speaker 2: in all the path of how to deal, what to

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Speaker 2: expect from the police, how to get answers from the police,

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Speaker 2: how basically to work with the police and not be confrontational,

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Speaker 2: and it's designed just to help families.

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Speaker 1: I looked at the presentation on Steve's website and it's

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Speaker 1: very helpful. One of the best tips that I saw

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Speaker 1: was to make a note of any recent developments in

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Speaker 1: the victim's life. For example, did they just leave a

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Speaker 1: relationship where they arguing with someone about money. Write these

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Speaker 1: down in bullet points, and write down the questions you

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Speaker 1: have when you go to the police so that you're organized.

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Speaker 1: It reminded me of when you go to the doctor's

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Speaker 1: office and the doctor's giving you information. All these expert

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Speaker 1: websites tell you to write down your questions. It seems

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Speaker 1: like such an easy thing, but for example, I never

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Speaker 1: do it, and I always walk out of the doctor's

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Speaker 1: office feeling like I've forgotten something. I think that it's

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Speaker 1: a good idea when you are talking to the police

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Speaker 1: to bring a friend with you and either you or

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Speaker 1: the person you're with to document everything. Again, we're looking

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Speaker 1: at Gail's pattern of life, and any changes in regular

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Speaker 1: routine should be noted. The website said something else that

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Speaker 1: I think is super important when you're talking to law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: It is super important to stick to facts, not opinions.

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Speaker 1: This is something that I try to follow myself when

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Speaker 1: I'm reporting on a case. I know it's easy to

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Speaker 1: get sidetracked by following a theory just because of the

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Speaker 1: way our minds work. Even if we are really objective,

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Speaker 1: we want to try to make that evidence fit your theory.

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Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, I'm an investigator.

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Speaker 1: It's all about examining facts, going from the crime scene

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Speaker 1: and working our way backwards.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, suicigns. Typically what happens, and I'm talking you know,

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Speaker 2: ninety five percent of the time, I can almost guarantee

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Speaker 2: you what happens, and that is the police will come

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Speaker 2: to the scene. If everything looks like they think it

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Speaker 2: should look, that case is closed out, probably in one

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Speaker 2: or two days. There are multiple cases that I've worked

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Speaker 2: that they didn't even do an autopsy. So they come in,

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Speaker 2: they do what I describe is the bobblehead to come

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Speaker 2: in to kind of nod, look around and what should

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Speaker 2: be required as an investigation, and that ends up being

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Speaker 2: a three or four page report.

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Speaker 1: The sad thing is evidence can be lost, and Steve

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Speaker 1: explains that even in a best case scenario, if a

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Speaker 1: company like his is able to find evidence, even what

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Speaker 1: they believe to be definitive evidence, at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, it's up to the police whether or not

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Speaker 1: to pursue it, and often the reality is they don't.

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Speaker 2: What a frustrating, however, is we have reviewed a case.

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Speaker 2: We concurred with the family that there is no way

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Speaker 2: that this was a suicide, and we actually found forensic

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Speaker 2: evidence in the form of bloodstain analysis that showed that

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Speaker 2: after the victim had been shot and injured. Her hand

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Speaker 2: had been moved and replaced, so we were able to

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Speaker 2: show that to the police and they've done nothing. It's

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Speaker 2: extremely frustrating for the families, you know, if nothing else

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Speaker 2: just confirmed that it is a suicide. But sure the thought,

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Speaker 2: the thought process to the cops is suicide is not

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Speaker 2: a criminal offense, right, so if it looks like it's

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Speaker 2: a suicide, basically we're not going to waste any time

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Speaker 2: on it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really unfortunate.

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Speaker 2: I can tell you I have reopened the suicide, improved

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Speaker 2: this a murder. Well, we talked to the family and

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Speaker 2: somebody came forward with the new information. The difference is

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Speaker 2: just happened in the military. But in the military, the

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Speaker 2: Army Cide did a complete crime scene examination, a complete

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Speaker 2: laboratory analysis. So when I went in to reopen, I

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Speaker 2: actually had a lot of stuff to work with, had

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Speaker 2: good scene photographs and stuff like that. The only thing

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Speaker 2: is that even if I give you an outstanding report,

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Speaker 2: what's going to happen? Because I just told you about

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Speaker 2: the case we had, but we actually had forensic evidence.

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Speaker 2: My partner is a bloodstain expert, so he identified a

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Speaker 2: bloodstain that was peer reviewed by another bloodstain expert which

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Speaker 2: said the same thing. Yet absolutely this hand was moved,

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Speaker 2: and the police just shrugged it off, like dam they

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Speaker 2: don't care.

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Speaker 1: We start talking about Gail's case. I tell Steve about

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Speaker 1: the condom that was lost and about the fact that

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Speaker 1: a number of tests weren't done that I believe could

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Speaker 1: have more definitively answered the question about time of death

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Speaker 1: and possibly whether or not Gail's body had been moved,

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Speaker 1: including insect activity, which I did not see on the

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Speaker 1: autopsy report. Steve said he also noted that the lack

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Speaker 1: of insect activity being documented, and I asked him about

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Speaker 1: one of the most crucial elements of this case, Gail's

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Speaker 1: time of death.

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Speaker 2: This is an example will be called tunnel vision, and

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Speaker 2: that is I've identified the suspect. So don't confuse me

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Speaker 2: with the facts that leads me to anywhere else.

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Speaker 1: Because remember, Gail's boyfriend, Ray was basically never charged, largely

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Speaker 1: due to the fact that police believed Gail had been

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Speaker 1: killed the night before. But as we said in last

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Speaker 1: week's episode, I believe that the evidence points to the

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Speaker 1: possibility that Gail's could have been killed later early in

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Speaker 1: the morning on March seventeenth. That would explain why parts

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Speaker 1: of her body were still warm, and why rigor mortis

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Speaker 1: had begun in her face but not progressed down her body.

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Speaker 1: We also talk about the rain, and this is why

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Speaker 1: I love talking to experts, because Steve found things that

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Speaker 1: I didn't see. I mentioned in last week's episode that

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons I believed why Gail had been

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Speaker 1: killed later than the police believed was because of the

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Speaker 1: tire tracks. The tire tracks were very detailed, and in

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Speaker 1: the police report it was noted that there had been

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Speaker 1: rained the night before, torrential rain at around two am.

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Speaker 1: But Steve pointed out that in the autopsy report there

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Speaker 1: was some conflict about whether the rain had started at

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Speaker 1: two am or ended at two am, which could potentially

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Speaker 1: be very important.

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Speaker 2: There were some conflicting information. Was it a torrential rain

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Speaker 2: at two o'clock or did it stop raining at two o'clock,

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Speaker 2: So there's real conflict, that's what I mean. So that

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Speaker 2: would be some of the stuff that I would have

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Speaker 2: to check out because the body was the was wet. Now,

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Speaker 2: some of the things that I noticed, first of all,

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Speaker 2: the gunshot, probably a small caliber twenty two or twenty five,

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Speaker 2: probably not anything heavier, but it never penetrated the skull,

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Speaker 2: so it kind of slid along. Okay, which is good. Now,

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Speaker 2: it did cost some bruising contusions to the brain and

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Speaker 2: some skull fractures, but it didn't end the brain. So

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Speaker 2: clearly she was killed by being run over. Okay. Now,

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Speaker 2: the thing that I caught that really caught my attention, however,

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Speaker 2: is the medical examiner investigator I think is who it is,

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Speaker 2: or the assistant one of them is out there, makes

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Speaker 2: an observation how she is described lying in the ground

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Speaker 2: on her right side, shoulders down. That she said that

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Speaker 2: it looks like her right foot had moved back and forth.

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Speaker 2: So that's important because that tells me that she was

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Speaker 2: probably killed right in that spot. Maybe not shots, but

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Speaker 2: killed in that spot. Yeah. Now I'm going to kind

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Speaker 2: of go off subject just a little bit because one

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Speaker 2: of the things that I looked at I've been scratching

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Speaker 2: my head, and that is her pants are down, but

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Speaker 2: they're not all the way off, so they.

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Speaker 3: Were it said that her clothes they found her clothes

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Speaker 3: twenty ten feet away or twenty feet away in the bushes.

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Speaker 2: Well, but there's conflicting information because there's another report that

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Speaker 2: said her pants was around her, around her ankles. So

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Speaker 2: you saw there there's a conflict.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't notice that.

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Speaker 1: We discussed the fact that, according to the police report,

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Speaker 1: Gail's clothing was found several feet away from her in

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Speaker 1: the woods. Steve says that in the autopsy report there's

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Speaker 1: also a reference to her pants being around her ankles.

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Speaker 1: In the crime scene photos, Gail is naked from the

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Speaker 1: waist down, so this is probably a mistake unless someone

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Speaker 1: took her pants off at the crime scene, which seems unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: But then again, this is a strange case. Steve and

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Speaker 1: I talk again about crime scene staging. Gail doesn't appear

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Speaker 1: to have been hit with the car, and she doesn't

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Speaker 1: have defensive wounds on her hands. So was she forced

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Speaker 1: out of the car at gunpoint or could she have

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Speaker 1: been shot somewhere else and then her killer took her

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Speaker 1: body out to dump her in the woods. Could they

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Speaker 1: at that point have realized that Gail was still alive

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Speaker 1: and decided to stage a sexual assault to throw off

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Speaker 1: the investigators.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things that I will tell you

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Speaker 2: that I started looking at is one of the most

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Speaker 2: popular themes to use when you stage the scene is

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Speaker 2: the sexual assault of sexual homicide. Right, So, I mean

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Speaker 2: I started looking at that, and I'm thinking, you know,

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Speaker 2: I have to me, this is so odd that she's

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Speaker 2: clearly but she wasn't dumped out of the car. She

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Speaker 2: wasn't thrown down because she doesn't have any of the

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Speaker 2: contusions or she doesn't have any of the upraisings that

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Speaker 2: I would expect that she had been pushed out right,

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Speaker 2: I'm not seeing that. So and the other thing is

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Speaker 2: is I always the hair on the back of my

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Speaker 2: neck stands up every time I feel like I'm being

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Speaker 2: led down a path. Because if this is the guy

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Speaker 2: and he's a sexual offender and he's out and he's

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Speaker 2: gonna kill this girl, then why does he leave a

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Speaker 2: condom behind?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I I agree. I have seen people

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Speaker 3: do dumb things. But then on the on the flip side,

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Speaker 3: or the condom could have been totally unrelated. It could

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Speaker 3: have just been out there, maybe some people talking up

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Speaker 3: out there.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, exactly, And that's the other that's the other possibility.

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Speaker 2: But then we have she's undressed, but there's really no

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Speaker 2: indication of recent sexual activity.

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Speaker 3: No, I think in the in the report, it said

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Speaker 3: she had had sex with her boyfriend like two nights earlier,

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Speaker 3: and that would have been consistent with that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, exactly, because so that that could be

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Speaker 2: present for up to ninety six hours. So I'm sitting

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Speaker 2: here and I'm looking at it, and I said, you know,

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Speaker 2: I know about sex offenders, and I said, this doesn't

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Speaker 2: This doesn't pass the common sense test that some sexual

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Speaker 2: offender has this girl and he can do whatever he wants,

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Speaker 2: but he doesn't do anything. Now, there are offenders that

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Speaker 2: might kill her and then maybe masturbate over her. Now

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Speaker 2: that there, Yeah, exactly. And I don't see any elements

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Speaker 2: of her being no bondage. I don't see any indication

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Speaker 2: that she was anally assaulted, which is something else I

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Speaker 2: would expect for those type of offenders who do that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So I'm sitting here scratching my head that I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you're dealing with the true sexual offender are

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Speaker 2: someone who's trying to make it look like a sexual offender.

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Speaker 1: We're split on whether this could be a staged crime

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Speaker 1: scene or just a panic sex offender. Steve asked me

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Speaker 1: more about the location where Gaile's body was found, which

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Speaker 1: is another extremely odd factor in this case, because why

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Speaker 1: would gles kill her not leave her in the woods?

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Speaker 1: They were surrounded by these very dense woods and trees.

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Speaker 1: Why did they choose to dump her out in the

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Speaker 1: middle of a road. Did they panic and have to

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Speaker 1: leave quickly? Or could this have been an indication they

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Speaker 1: wanted her body to be found?

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Speaker 2: You have to look at us. When was the body

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Speaker 2: actually found, because that's when you need to start working

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Speaker 2: yourself back.

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Speaker 3: Well around just after ten am was when it was

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Speaker 3: found and the cops were there by like ten thirty.

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Speaker 2: And I guess that's not a very well traveled road.

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Speaker 2: No it's not.

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Speaker 3: It was a back road off of a off of

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Speaker 3: a two lane highway. But no, it's a back dirt road.

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Speaker 3: To eat APU kind of know where it was.

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Speaker 2: It's like a logging road. Okay. How far away from

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Speaker 2: her residence?

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Speaker 3: About three miles little less than three miles, so yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then the other thing is if this is a

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Speaker 2: stranger doing all this, then what I would expect if

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Speaker 2: this was a stranger, that after the incident, they would

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Speaker 2: have taken her to the next county or something like that,

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Speaker 2: and done it not right there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is weird, Yeah, really weird.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it has I mean there was interesting, interesting,

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Speaker 2: interesting case for sure.

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Speaker 1: So what do we know for sure? Gail was almost

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Speaker 1: certainly shot before she was run over, because it was

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Speaker 1: being run over that killed her. Steve said that, in

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Speaker 1: his opinion, Gail's wounds indicate that she was run over

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Speaker 1: by a vehicle with a higher undercarriage, one that was

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Speaker 1: higher off the ground. Steve said it could have been

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Speaker 1: a jeep which Gail drove, or a pickup truck. Remember

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Speaker 1: last week we talked to the former sheriff, Herb Marshall.

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Speaker 1: He told us that he believed Gail had been run

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Speaker 1: over in her own jeep.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, she may have gone out there and

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Speaker 2: or to you know, maybe regain consciousness, or maybe she

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Speaker 2: never lost consciousness, because remember, I mean, it's just like

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Speaker 2: like a like a big concussion, okay, is the type

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Speaker 2: of injuries Okay, And then they get out there and

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Speaker 2: and he figures out, shit, I got to do something

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Speaker 2: or else. He's not struggling, right, I am imagining, takes

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Speaker 2: her out on the road and just lips your pants

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Speaker 2: off and runs over it. Now, the other thing that

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Speaker 2: I did see with some of the autopsy photographs that

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Speaker 2: are not great, but they're okay. I think you're looking

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Speaker 2: at a pickup truck rather than a car. Hmm.

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Speaker 3: Interesting. The police think her deep and I don't know

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Speaker 3: where they got that from.

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Speaker 2: I don't they don't know that well anything that's the

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Speaker 2: higher that the body is higher off the ground, because

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Speaker 2: what I what I didn't see. And I've seen bodies

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Speaker 2: that are hit by cars, you know, the body runs

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Speaker 2: into the the undercarriage and there's all kinds of nicks

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Speaker 2: and scratches and stuff like that. And I didn't see anything,

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Speaker 2: although I did find some pattern injuries. And what I'm

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Speaker 2: looking at this at is you know, this is to me,

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Speaker 2: these are caused by her laying across or laying on something.

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Speaker 2: Well interesting, Yeah, it's on her lower I think left leg.

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Speaker 3: Would that have been like something in that road or something?

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Speaker 3: Or do you think or do you think someone shot

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Speaker 3: her and then took her out there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think she was shot somewhere else, quite honestly,

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Speaker 2: I mean maybe not. I don't know. I don't have

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Speaker 2: her clothing, so I don't know if there's any blood

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Speaker 2: own her clothing.

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Speaker 1: I remember that there were no pictures of Gail's clothing,

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Speaker 1: but the police report indicated that her clothes had been

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Speaker 1: thrown in the woods about ten feet from her body.

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Speaker 1: Her underwear and jeans were balled up as if they

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Speaker 1: had been pulled off together, and there was fecal matter

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Speaker 1: in her underwear. This next part is a little bit upsetting,

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Speaker 1: but we have to examine the forensic evidence, so I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to plow forward. It was noted in the

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Speaker 1: report the police thought that, due to the fact that

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Speaker 1: there was no feces smeared on Gail's buttocks, they believe

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Speaker 1: the feces was expelled when she was run over by

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Speaker 1: the vehicle, rather than, for example, when she was shot

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Speaker 1: in the head. This is one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: police believe Gail was shot before she was run over.

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Speaker 1: But when I talked to Steve, he believes that the

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Speaker 1: evidence points to Gail's clothing being stripped off before she

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Speaker 1: was run over, not after.

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Speaker 3: I would think it would be possible that, you know,

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Speaker 3: after you were shot in the head, that would happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, I mean it's that you know that

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Speaker 2: got a aweso because it is a I awakened and

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Speaker 2: experience as you might imagine, Yeah, being run over first

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Speaker 2: and then the pants off, I suppose, but you know,

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Speaker 2: with her broken pelvis, that may have been a little

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Speaker 2: bit more difficult.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like it'd be difficult to take off.

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Speaker 3: And if they had to and if you do type

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Speaker 3: tight jeans or tighter jeans off a girl, right, you're

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Speaker 3: going to move things in a certain way, you know. There,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, right, Yeah, it's so sad. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the whole thing is actually I think about it a

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Speaker 3: lot because I can't imagine a worse death. Really, it

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Speaker 3: means horrible.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh no, absolutely, you know, especially if it's

401
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Speaker 2: if it's somebody at one time you had a relationship

402
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Speaker 2: with or whatever, which is which was you know, generally

403
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Speaker 2: what what happens. And one of the things that we

404
00:23:38,925 --> 00:23:41,205
Speaker 2: that we always stay on a stage crime scene, don't

405
00:23:41,205 --> 00:23:43,685
Speaker 2: look out signed on a stage crime scene, look towards

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Speaker 2: the victim, because it's going to be somebody that has

407
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Speaker 2: to point at somebody else. Yeah, they want to misdirect

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Speaker 2: the police away from them, away from their activities.

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Speaker 1: But it's also possible that she was run over by

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Speaker 1: a pickup truck and Gail's boyfriend Ray drove a pickup truck,

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about what Steve said about police not

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Speaker 1: checking out about I've found this to be a theme

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Speaker 1: over and over in so many of these cases, which

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Speaker 1: you will know if you listen to this podcast. Remember,

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Speaker 1: Ray's story was that he borrowed Gale's jeep the night

416
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Speaker 1: before because his own vehicle was dead and not running.

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Speaker 1: How do we know for sure that his truck was

418
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Speaker 1: out of action? Ray said that on Friday, after he

419
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Speaker 1: went home after his night out, He said that he

420
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Speaker 1: slept in his truck and then he supposedly called some

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Speaker 1: friends to come over to try to help him get

422
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Speaker 1: the truck started and push it. He said that it

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Speaker 1: did start briefly but then installed again. But I wonder

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Speaker 1: did anyone actually check that. Did they look inside the truck?

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Speaker 1: Did they ask Ray how his truck stopped working and

426
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Speaker 1: when that happened? Did it really die months earlier or

427
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Speaker 1: could it have stalled much more recently, for example, after

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Speaker 1: running over something heavy. Steve believes, at least based on

429
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Speaker 1: what he's seen so far from the autopsy report, that

430
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Speaker 1: this scene has some of the hallmarks of a stage

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Speaker 1: crime scene.

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Speaker 2: You know, it could have been you know, teenagers out

433
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Speaker 2: there exercising, and that's one of the rappers there. But again,

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Speaker 2: that just it always bothers me when I see that.

435
00:25:15,525 --> 00:25:18,205
Speaker 2: It's like I'm being led down the path, you know.

436
00:25:18,325 --> 00:25:22,165
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, so it's a little why would someone leave?

437
00:25:22,365 --> 00:25:22,645
Speaker 1: You know?

438
00:25:23,325 --> 00:25:26,005
Speaker 3: I mean, on the flip side, I've seen really dumb

439
00:25:26,085 --> 00:25:28,725
Speaker 3: people do really dwmb things, especially when they're panicked. But

440
00:25:29,645 --> 00:25:30,725
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's weird.

441
00:25:30,765 --> 00:25:32,845
Speaker 2: Well, you know, but he's But here's the thing we

442
00:25:32,885 --> 00:25:34,845
Speaker 2: always look at. We always look at what we call

443
00:25:34,885 --> 00:25:39,485
Speaker 2: it offended the ecotomy. So here's a guy that's apparently

444
00:25:39,525 --> 00:25:42,445
Speaker 2: so clever as he can murder this person and leave

445
00:25:42,445 --> 00:25:46,005
Speaker 2: her out there and leave basically no signs that they

446
00:25:46,005 --> 00:25:48,365
Speaker 2: were there, no evidence. But then he turns around and

447
00:25:48,485 --> 00:25:52,685
Speaker 2: leaves the condom. Yeah, that's the best evidence in the world.

448
00:25:54,085 --> 00:25:56,765
Speaker 1: So it's looking more likely that Gail was shot in

449
00:25:56,805 --> 00:25:59,805
Speaker 1: the head and then her pants and underwear were stripped

450
00:25:59,845 --> 00:26:04,765
Speaker 1: off before she was run over. After that, there are

451
00:26:04,765 --> 00:26:08,685
Speaker 1: two main possibilities. Either her killer took off her pants

452
00:26:08,725 --> 00:26:11,365
Speaker 1: and then dropped the condom and gunbox there to stage

453
00:26:11,365 --> 00:26:14,245
Speaker 1: the crime scene, or that Gale was shot and had raped.

454
00:26:15,805 --> 00:26:18,805
Speaker 1: Did Gail's killer leave her in that open road because

455
00:26:18,805 --> 00:26:20,685
Speaker 1: they wanted her to get found, which would be more

456
00:26:20,765 --> 00:26:24,645
Speaker 1: characteristic of a stage crime scene. Or was them dumping

457
00:26:24,645 --> 00:26:26,965
Speaker 1: her there a panicked reaction to something that got out

458
00:26:27,005 --> 00:26:30,245
Speaker 1: of control. Did her killer panic for some reason and

459
00:26:30,285 --> 00:26:33,645
Speaker 1: have to take off suddenly. One thing that Steve and

460
00:26:33,645 --> 00:26:36,845
Speaker 1: I both agree on immediately is the fact that Gail's

461
00:26:36,885 --> 00:26:40,125
Speaker 1: killer was almost certainly not a random stranger. It was

462
00:26:40,125 --> 00:26:44,165
Speaker 1: someone local, someone who knew these woods well and believed

463
00:26:44,245 --> 00:26:46,725
Speaker 1: that on that road at that time they would not

464
00:26:46,805 --> 00:26:47,885
Speaker 1: be disturbed.

465
00:26:48,125 --> 00:26:52,485
Speaker 2: Right, and the stranger would put her somewhere's else because

466
00:26:52,525 --> 00:26:56,285
Speaker 2: that gives him a chance to get more distanced than

467
00:26:56,325 --> 00:26:59,205
Speaker 2: the topspineing them. Yeah, so this is that was my

468
00:26:59,245 --> 00:27:02,885
Speaker 2: impression as well, that somebody wanted her found. And the

469
00:27:02,925 --> 00:27:05,005
Speaker 2: other thing is is that this is a dirt road.

470
00:27:05,605 --> 00:27:08,805
Speaker 2: I asked myself, how would a stranger know how to

471
00:27:08,805 --> 00:27:11,765
Speaker 2: get out there or why took the road.

472
00:27:13,285 --> 00:27:16,245
Speaker 1: I mentioned to Steve the interview with laith Lane, the

473
00:27:16,285 --> 00:27:18,325
Speaker 1: man who said that he saw Gail hitchhiking on the

474
00:27:18,365 --> 00:27:21,005
Speaker 1: side of the road on Thursday, and too, as I

475
00:27:21,045 --> 00:27:23,925
Speaker 1: pointed out, for some reason, when he was interviewed on Friday,

476
00:27:24,085 --> 00:27:27,565
Speaker 1: just hours after Gail's body was found, knew exactly what

477
00:27:27,685 --> 00:27:31,045
Speaker 1: Gail had been wearing when she was killed. We look

478
00:27:31,125 --> 00:27:34,765
Speaker 1: back at our location map. Gail's apartment that she shared

479
00:27:34,805 --> 00:27:37,325
Speaker 1: with Ray was about three miles from where her body

480
00:27:37,405 --> 00:27:40,325
Speaker 1: was found. According to her sister, it was a distance

481
00:27:40,365 --> 00:27:42,725
Speaker 1: that was a little bit too far to walk. Also,

482
00:27:43,045 --> 00:27:46,285
Speaker 1: when she was found, she was wearing socks but no shoes,

483
00:27:46,885 --> 00:27:50,805
Speaker 1: so she probably did not walk out there. Someone probably

484
00:27:50,885 --> 00:27:55,645
Speaker 1: drove her to that location. Now, laith Lane may have

485
00:27:55,765 --> 00:27:59,245
Speaker 1: a totally reasonable explanation for how he knew this. We

486
00:27:59,365 --> 00:28:01,765
Speaker 1: know that word travels fast in that neck of the woods.

487
00:28:02,285 --> 00:28:05,765
Speaker 1: A lot of people had cbe radios and police scanners. Also,

488
00:28:05,965 --> 00:28:09,885
Speaker 1: laith Lane's mother lived near that crime scene, so he

489
00:28:09,925 --> 00:28:12,365
Speaker 1: may have actually seen Gail at the crime scene. We

490
00:28:12,485 --> 00:28:15,245
Speaker 1: just don't know. What bothers me is that I don't

491
00:28:15,325 --> 00:28:18,485
Speaker 1: know an answer to a crucial question, actually one of

492
00:28:18,525 --> 00:28:20,165
Speaker 1: the same ones that Steve asked me.

493
00:28:21,165 --> 00:28:24,485
Speaker 2: So everybody that lives around there would know about it,

494
00:28:24,565 --> 00:28:28,325
Speaker 2: but someone who's coming to Memphis probably wouldn't know about it.

495
00:28:28,845 --> 00:28:31,405
Speaker 3: Oh No, I don't think any I don't think it

496
00:28:31,685 --> 00:28:34,085
Speaker 3: was a stranger from like out of town. It might

497
00:28:34,085 --> 00:28:36,405
Speaker 3: have been a stranger to her or something she didn't know. Well,

498
00:28:36,605 --> 00:28:38,725
Speaker 3: that's possible, but I don't. I think I think you're right.

499
00:28:38,805 --> 00:28:39,845
Speaker 3: I think it was someone.

500
00:28:39,605 --> 00:28:43,245
Speaker 2: From Yeah, and that's what I meant by that. It's

501
00:28:44,245 --> 00:28:47,965
Speaker 2: you know, it's probably somebody local rather than someone just

502
00:28:48,085 --> 00:28:50,365
Speaker 2: driving through happened upon her.

503
00:28:51,365 --> 00:28:55,365
Speaker 1: We start talking again about Gail's pattern of life. Where

504
00:28:55,685 --> 00:28:59,085
Speaker 1: was Gail in the twenty four hours before she disappeared. Now,

505
00:28:59,165 --> 00:29:02,525
Speaker 1: unfortunately the record of where she was on Thursday is

506
00:29:02,565 --> 00:29:05,965
Speaker 1: not super well documented in the police reports, but I

507
00:29:06,005 --> 00:29:08,765
Speaker 1: tell them what we know. Gail had her jeep on

508
00:29:08,805 --> 00:29:11,565
Speaker 1: Thursday morning. She was seen at the job site talking

509
00:29:11,565 --> 00:29:15,965
Speaker 1: to people, behaving normally. Then she left the job site

510
00:29:16,005 --> 00:29:18,485
Speaker 1: on Thursday night, just after eight pm. She called her

511
00:29:18,565 --> 00:29:20,845
Speaker 1: supervisor and asked if they would be working the next day.

512
00:29:21,365 --> 00:29:23,725
Speaker 1: When she was told no that because the rains had

513
00:29:23,725 --> 00:29:25,965
Speaker 1: been too heavy, that she would not be working on Friday,

514
00:29:26,645 --> 00:29:29,245
Speaker 1: Gail told her supervisor she planned to come in and

515
00:29:29,245 --> 00:29:33,125
Speaker 1: pick up her paycheck the next morning. Friday morning. Again,

516
00:29:33,485 --> 00:29:35,965
Speaker 1: most of the things that happened that day in Gail's

517
00:29:36,005 --> 00:29:40,925
Speaker 1: life seemed to be unfolding completely normally, except for one

518
00:29:40,965 --> 00:29:43,885
Speaker 1: incident that was completely out of the ordinary and stood

519
00:29:43,925 --> 00:29:47,405
Speaker 1: out the fact that Gail supposedly let Ray borrow her

520
00:29:47,485 --> 00:29:51,365
Speaker 1: jeep that night. Steve once again talks about how crucial

521
00:29:51,405 --> 00:29:53,845
Speaker 1: it is to identify a victim's pattern of life and

522
00:29:53,885 --> 00:29:56,645
Speaker 1: to truly get inside the mind of the victim. I

523
00:29:56,805 --> 00:29:58,405
Speaker 1: know a lot of people may think that I go

524
00:29:58,525 --> 00:30:00,685
Speaker 1: over and over the same facts a million times on

525
00:30:00,725 --> 00:30:03,085
Speaker 1: this podcast, but that is what I'm trying to do.

526
00:30:03,605 --> 00:30:06,925
Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand Gaile's routine. What was she doing

527
00:30:07,005 --> 00:30:09,725
Speaker 1: during all of the spaces in the police report where

528
00:30:09,725 --> 00:30:11,405
Speaker 1: there are these unexplained gaps of time.

529
00:30:12,565 --> 00:30:14,765
Speaker 2: Well, the big thing I always look for is any

530
00:30:14,885 --> 00:30:18,285
Speaker 2: change of routine is what we call a coincidence, Right,

531
00:30:18,445 --> 00:30:23,765
Speaker 2: any change of routine. Well, usually when we teach law enforcement,

532
00:30:23,845 --> 00:30:27,045
Speaker 2: we say, every time you hear a coincidence, the many

533
00:30:27,085 --> 00:30:30,205
Speaker 2: thing you hear is probably a lie. So in this

534
00:30:30,245 --> 00:30:34,965
Speaker 2: particular case, she never lets anybody use her car, but

535
00:30:35,085 --> 00:30:37,485
Speaker 2: that night she does. That's a change of routine, That's

536
00:30:37,485 --> 00:30:38,205
Speaker 2: a coincidence.

537
00:30:46,245 --> 00:30:48,845
Speaker 1: Once again, Steve and I discussed the fact that Gail,

538
00:30:48,965 --> 00:30:52,845
Speaker 1: according to her friend Sheila, never let anyone borrow her vehicle,

539
00:30:53,565 --> 00:30:55,685
Speaker 1: and then it seems weird to both of us. That

540
00:30:55,765 --> 00:30:58,285
Speaker 1: suddenly Ray was out all night with her jeep and

541
00:30:58,365 --> 00:31:01,405
Speaker 1: told the police later that Gail was fine with that.

542
00:31:01,405 --> 00:31:03,485
Speaker 1: That's a definite red flag. That makes the hairs on

543
00:31:03,485 --> 00:31:04,605
Speaker 1: the back of my next stand up.

544
00:31:06,325 --> 00:31:08,445
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a there's an awful lot of stuff.

545
00:31:09,125 --> 00:31:12,885
Speaker 2: Quite honestly, it's it's a it's a pretty good case.

546
00:31:13,125 --> 00:31:17,965
Speaker 2: It's I wish the cops had done obviously a little

547
00:31:18,005 --> 00:31:18,445
Speaker 2: bit better.

548
00:31:19,565 --> 00:31:22,685
Speaker 1: Ray has passed away, so if the evidence does ultimately

549
00:31:22,765 --> 00:31:26,125
Speaker 1: end up pointing to him, obviously he can't be prosecuted.

550
00:31:27,205 --> 00:31:30,405
Speaker 1: But Gail has a sister, Teresa, who is still alive

551
00:31:30,965 --> 00:31:32,965
Speaker 1: and who still has to go to sleep at night

552
00:31:33,085 --> 00:31:35,965
Speaker 1: wondering what really happened to her sister all those years

553
00:31:35,965 --> 00:31:39,645
Speaker 1: ago and why. Steve agrees with me that the laith

554
00:31:39,725 --> 00:31:43,005
Speaker 1: Lane lead should have been investigated further, and he asks

555
00:31:43,045 --> 00:31:45,405
Speaker 1: another one of the same questions that I've been lying

556
00:31:45,445 --> 00:31:48,605
Speaker 1: awake at night, tossing and turning and thinking about obsessively.

557
00:31:49,005 --> 00:31:52,405
Speaker 2: Here's the important question. Did the police contact him or

558
00:31:52,445 --> 00:31:54,165
Speaker 2: did he contact the police first?

559
00:31:54,925 --> 00:31:58,205
Speaker 3: Exactly? You know what? I asked that, and nobody can

560
00:31:58,245 --> 00:31:59,805
Speaker 3: tell me the answer to that, because I was like,

561
00:31:59,885 --> 00:32:02,525
Speaker 3: I'm just I just want to know how this guy

562
00:32:02,685 --> 00:32:05,165
Speaker 3: got involved, like with he at the crime scene? Did

563
00:32:05,165 --> 00:32:07,645
Speaker 3: he live? Did he happen to pass by? And then

564
00:32:07,685 --> 00:32:09,605
Speaker 3: maybe you know, because that would explain it. But I

565
00:32:09,725 --> 00:32:11,965
Speaker 3: just need to know an otherwise. It is very strange.

566
00:32:12,405 --> 00:32:15,925
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I always I'm always suspicious of anybody who

567
00:32:15,965 --> 00:32:18,965
Speaker 2: tries to interject themselves into the into the case.

568
00:32:19,885 --> 00:32:23,525
Speaker 1: Something else bothers me. This idea that once someone is

569
00:32:23,565 --> 00:32:27,365
Speaker 1: elderly above say age sixty five or seventy, that they

570
00:32:27,365 --> 00:32:28,925
Speaker 1: are somehow harmless.

571
00:32:29,845 --> 00:32:32,205
Speaker 2: I'm with you. Yeah, I don't care who it is.

572
00:32:33,165 --> 00:32:34,805
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're gonna at least look at these things. But

573
00:32:34,885 --> 00:32:37,485
Speaker 3: there's something weird. To check it out.

574
00:32:37,765 --> 00:32:41,685
Speaker 2: Well, most most criminals will burn themselves out between forty

575
00:32:41,685 --> 00:32:44,645
Speaker 2: five and fifty. But there's two people that will never

576
00:32:44,725 --> 00:32:47,525
Speaker 2: burn out. That they will offend and up until the

577
00:32:47,605 --> 00:32:53,245
Speaker 2: day they die if they can. Okay, that's a pedophile right,

578
00:32:54,285 --> 00:32:57,285
Speaker 2: and a sexual statist. Now, this is the guy who's

579
00:32:57,325 --> 00:33:01,245
Speaker 2: into the d s M. Often they reach the stage

580
00:33:01,285 --> 00:33:04,845
Speaker 2: that their whole intent is to sexually torture someone all

581
00:33:04,845 --> 00:33:07,525
Speaker 2: the way up to the timely murder them like Bundy

582
00:33:07,765 --> 00:33:12,845
Speaker 2: like BTK. Now, those are all sexual status. So those

583
00:33:12,885 --> 00:33:17,925
Speaker 2: little guys that never burn out. They will offend continuously

584
00:33:18,045 --> 00:33:18,605
Speaker 2: if they can.

585
00:33:21,165 --> 00:33:24,005
Speaker 1: You can find Steve's company, Second Look Training and Forensic

586
00:33:24,045 --> 00:33:27,965
Speaker 1: Consulting online at second Loooktraining dot com. You can also

587
00:33:28,045 --> 00:33:30,965
Speaker 1: reach them at nine to one nine three six zero

588
00:33:31,325 --> 00:33:35,045
Speaker 1: three five one eight. So where does this leave us

589
00:33:35,125 --> 00:33:38,925
Speaker 1: with Gail's case. It's possible that Gail's killer is dead,

590
00:33:39,805 --> 00:33:42,285
Speaker 1: But what if they're not. What if there is a

591
00:33:42,365 --> 00:33:46,645
Speaker 1: killer walking around out there right now, one who now

592
00:33:46,685 --> 00:33:50,445
Speaker 1: maybe has children and grandchildren. I'm thinking about the information

593
00:33:50,485 --> 00:33:54,085
Speaker 1: that Steve gave me. What if that crime scene wasn't staged.

594
00:33:54,765 --> 00:33:57,725
Speaker 1: What if there's a sexual sadist out there, one who

595
00:33:57,765 --> 00:34:01,125
Speaker 1: got away with murder? What else have they been doing

596
00:34:01,165 --> 00:34:05,965
Speaker 1: since nineteen eighty? I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen on

597
00:34:06,085 --> 00:34:11,925
Speaker 1: Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a production of

598
00:34:11,965 --> 00:34:15,285
Speaker 1: School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated

599
00:34:15,325 --> 00:34:19,165
Speaker 1: by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts. Music

600
00:34:19,205 --> 00:34:23,165
Speaker 1: contributed by Ben s Lee. Executive producers of Virginia Prescott,

601
00:34:23,645 --> 00:34:27,445
Speaker 1: Brandon Barr, and Elsie Crowley. Special thanks to Amy Tubbs

602
00:34:27,485 --> 00:34:30,605
Speaker 1: for her research assistance. If you have a case, you'd

603
00:34:30,645 --> 00:34:32,685
Speaker 1: like me and my team to look into. You can

604
00:34:32,725 --> 00:34:34,645
Speaker 1: reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line.

605
00:34:34,645 --> 00:34:37,725
Speaker 1: It's six seven eight seven four four six one four five.

606
00:34:38,085 --> 00:34:42,085
Speaker 1: That's six seven eight seven four four six one four five.

607
00:34:51,165 --> 00:34:53,005
Speaker 1: School of Humans