WEBVTT - Why UK Foreign Policy Is Also a Domestic Issue 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:10.119 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. Kirst Armer has been 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:13.480 very vocal about his mission to reset Britain's relationship with 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.759 Europe and to put the UK back on the global stage. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.360 Two weeks into the job, he got a chance to 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:21.840 make some headway when he hosted more than forty of 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:26.640 the continent's leaders at Winston Churchill's ancestral home. Just before that, 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.479 he had traveled to Washington for the NATO Summit. But 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:34.040 what's his best strategy for fostering global relationships? In this episode, 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:36.920 we speak with someone who is arguably the best place 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:41.200 to answer that question. Welcome to the City of London, 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:43.440 The City of the City, The City of London. 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:51.559 These mind the gap between and the financial heart of 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:58.120 the country. 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:57.720 The City, the City. 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:04.280 Welcome to in the City, Then clear of the dows Peace. 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:07.920 Welcome to in the City. A podcast from Bloomberg about 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.720 the stories important to the City of London. I'm an 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.560 Augus Stratton and my co host Francine laquer and I 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:17.040 spoke with Baroness Ashton of up Holland, also known as 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:21.160 Kathy Ashton, currently a Labor member of the House of Lords. Previously, 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:24.560 Kathy Ashton served as the first ever High Representative for 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.200 Foreign Affairs and Security from twenty oh nine to twenty fourteen. 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:31.280 It's a role that even she admits took some time 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:33.000 to cultivate and understand. 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:37.520 I recall going to Moscow to have a first proper 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:41.800 sit down meeting with then Foreign Minister love Rof and 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.240 I could see that they were all quizzically looking at 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.080 what on earth this was. And sometimes it's useful to 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:50.920 be able to explain that you also understand that were 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:52.880 at the beginning of a process, not the end. And 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.880 so I told a joke that the then Slovenian Prime 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.400 Minister had told me, which was very simply that the 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.160 American President is told by his Secretary of State that 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.400 there is good news that the Kissinger question, if I 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.919 want to talk to Europe, who do I call had 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.760 been answered and the answer was me. And so, with 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.000 great gusto, the American President says, well, why don't we 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:21.000 call Kathy's number. See what happens. They called my number 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.640 and they get my voicemail, and my voicemail says, welcome 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.240 to Europe. For the French position, Press one, the Italian 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.800 position Press two, and so on, And as I recall, 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.880 Lavrov laughed. My message I think got through that I 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.560 was under no illusion that we were starting a process, 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:39.320 not finishing it. 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:42.520 Kathy was one of the world's most powerful women at 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.760 the time, immersed in some of the most complicated problems, 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.640 many quite similar to the problems the UK faces today. 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:52.920 So we spoke to her about what she sees as 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.840 Labour's priorities regarding trade deals, their relationship with the US, 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:01.720 and their strategy for rehabilitating a European relationship soured by Brexit. 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:07.520 You're one of the great diplomatic minds that the UK has. 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.720 What will diplomacy and foreign affairs look like? Hendrik Kearstarmer. 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.240 It's great to be on the podcast, and I think 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.840 the first thing to say is that there is an 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.480 understanding of the importance of ensuring that Britain plays its 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:24.840 part in world affairs, and that translates into a number 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.720 of things. First of all, the importance of the relationship 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.600 with Europe not to look backwards, not to go backwards, 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:34.400 but to go forwards, to develop a stronger foreign policy, 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:39.800 security defense relationship with the like minded countries of the 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:45.040 European Union. It means looking across to the Transatlantic relationship 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:48.600 regardless of who's in the White House, and ensuring that 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.720 the depths and strength of that continues. Britain was always 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.160 known as the bridge between the European Union and the 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.160 United States. Well that bridge isn't quite there now, but 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.680 there's still to be done in that relationship too. And 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.360 then I think some of the big foreign policy questions 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.960 that we're facing, the war in Ukraine, the crisis in 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.640 the Middle East, the strength of our relationship with countries 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.920 we've known a long time and countries we're trying to 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:20.040 develop new relationships with, and of course the challenge of China, 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.560 so very clear, big issues to be dealt with, but 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.719 I think a determination that Britain will be more present 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:28.560 than it's been in recent years. 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:31.680 If you look at European countries, they're all grappling with 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:35.799 the same issue of an increase in migration. I'm really 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:41.599 wondering how the Labor government manage to get from the 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:45.839 French and the Germans and others agreement on handling migrants, 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.919 just purely from the perspective, which is they also have 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.520 their domestic electurates that are very volatile, like the UK electurate. 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:55.440 What's the way through is it possible. 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.760 I think you have to start further back in a way, 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.320 which is why people are moving. And one of the 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.560 things that is always a challenge in foreign policy is 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.080 the short cycle of governments and the fact that we 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:11.640 are dealing with always more than one crisis at any 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.320 given moment. So it tends to be a bit like 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:16.719 the game Whack Them All, where you kind of whack 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.039 the crisis back down and then move on to the 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.520 next cool right, and I hope that it won't pop 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.159 up again. But so many of the issues that we 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.080 face in the world have taken decades, if not centuries 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:30.360 to erupt. So why we think two years is going 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.720 to solve it? I don't know. So the first thing 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.359 to say is that there's a collaboration to be done 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.200 that is more than just Europe, which is about saying, 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.880 why is it that these people are coming, what's happening, 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:45.520 How do we inject some ways of sort of solving 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.920 the problem or at least alleviating the problem that we're 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.520 not doing already that maybe could help. And also looking 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:55.880 on the horizon, scanning for places that are likely to erupt, 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.280 And that may seem sort of easy to say and 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.400 very long term, But actually you do need to think 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:06.120 in ten twenty thirty years time what will be the 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.680 challenges that we face. And I've mentioned climate change is 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:12.120 a good example. If people are living without a you know, 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.680 at the infrastructure and the social blanket if you like 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.240 that will support them. Then what happens when they can't 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:22.240 grow the crops? What happens when the village is flooded 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:25.360 for the fourth time. They have to move somewhere, and 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.679 they may choose to move internally, or they may choose 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.080 to move further afield. And that's going to be one 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:31.920 of the things that we have to deal with, regardless 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:34.560 of how effective we are in solving some of the 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.360 problems that we have on climate change. So number one, 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.800 start much further back in the process, and then number two, 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:44.280 we're in it together. We're all trying to tackle this 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:49.279 in the best way, recognizing that people come for different reasons, 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.880 recognizing that you have to make choices and they're hard 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.200 and difficult, and then trying to be more collaborative. And 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:59.760 I think that at least is a good place to start. 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.760 How they're able to do this, what the agivements will 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.159 look like is not for me to say but I 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.080 think it's important to at least begin that process and 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.840 to really think about what could make a difference. And 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:15.480 I think actually smashing the gangs that create the misery 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.520 that we see would be a really, really effective tool. 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.840 So it's interesting I gro that you bring up immigration 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:22.320 because for me, if you look at some of the 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.280 challenges right in twenty twenty four, it's probably like US 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:27.040 and Trump, who wants to put terrorfs some and then 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:28.640 you don't really know how to deal with China. But 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.360 I guess there's a disconnect between these bigger foreign policy 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.600 issues and what citizens vote for, right, I mean foreign policy. 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.680 People don't vote for governments on foreign policy. Is that 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:41.960 a mistake, Well, they don't. 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:45.120 But again because it's actually domestic. They are voting on 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:49.440 domestic issues which actually have a foreign policy element to them, 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:54.080 sometimes bigger than others. So and issues of migration, immigration, 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:59.120 there are bigger domestic and bigger foreign policy issues buried 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.040 within that. Then there would be when people think about, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.640 you know, the cost of things, or whether their small 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:07.880 business is going to be effective and so on, those 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.760 two have a foreign policy implication. If you're no longer 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:15.080 able to trade in Europe the way you did because 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:17.360 of the way things have worked out. That has a 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:21.520 direct impact on you and your family, and your community, 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.760 and your customers and so on, and your workforce in particular. 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.200 If we can sort of solve some of those problems, 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.280 which is foreign policy, then it has a direct impact 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.640 on the domestics. So although people rightly vote on the 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:38.640 issues that concern them, that's not to say that foreign 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.920 policy doesn't play its part in helping them get what 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:42.439 they need. 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.720 So you've dealt with what's called them tricky characters, You've 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:51.040 negotiated with there on, You've negotiated with Russia and Lavra. 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.920 What was your secret tool in trying to get them 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.160 to the table and actually sign something. 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.120 Well, if you take the around talks, I had two jobs. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:04.040 One was to help hold the six countries together because 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:08.199 this was China, Russia, United States, France, and the UK, 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.400 the P five the permanent five members of the Security Council, 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.480 plus Germany because they'd been an original negotiator with Iran. 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.640 It's the only negotiation in history where the P five 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:23.240 worked together and stuck together and voted together. And it's 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.319 a great loss, amongst many other things, that that possibility 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:31.480 no longer exists, at least for now, and getting them 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.319 to have a common position when they needed and wanted 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:38.200 different things from the negotiation, they'd have settled for less 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.960 or needed more was one of the jobs that we 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.600 had to ensure happened. Because what you have to have 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:49.040 in a negotiation as complicated and as technically complex as 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:53.280 iruand negotiations was absolute clarity that we are all on 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:57.200 this position and we're sticking to it, with the maneuverability 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.120 you also need in a negotiation, because what would have 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.960 been disastrous would have been if either Iran had felt 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.640 able to pick off a couple of countries or equally 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.439 that they would have been completely confused. If the messages 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.640 they were getting were different, it would be impossible for 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:15.920 them to be able to develop their own positions. So 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:18.400 that was number one on The second job then was 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:22.520 to take that and to negotiate with the Iranians. The 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:24.640 US did a lot of the heavy lifting. I'm not 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.920 going to pretend otherwise, because that's absolutely true. But it 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.240 was a six country negotiation with the EU chairing and 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:35.120 leading it, and we shouldn't underestimate the role of any 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.520 country because there were moments in that five years, four 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:42.840 and a half years of my negotiation, when each country 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.160 did something that actually held the talks together, and that's 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:51.959 something we shouldn't forget. But getting that negotiation to work 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:54.600 was about those two things coming together. 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.240 Did you realize things about yourself through that process? Sorry 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.400 to go all it can't lytical, but it's so hard 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.480 to keep all those six countries going. Is it a 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:07.640 very personal job or is it something you know you 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.280 go on to autopilot and it's actually you know, you've 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:12.240 got a briefing and you stick to it and so on. 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.520 What's the balance between the personal and the state craft 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:17.360 of the Foreign Office? 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:20.600 Well, of course I've never been in the Foreign Office, 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.640 and I was creating a brand new foreign service, and 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:27.439 I'd never been a diplomat. But I'd been an negotiator, 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.680 as it turned out, and you sort of recognize the 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.360 skill set as leader of the House of Laws or 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:35.160 as a minister in the Laws. I never had more 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.640 than twenty two percent of the vault guaranteed, so everything 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.119 I did was an negotiation. I'd shared a health authority, 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.280 which meant merging hospitals. That was a negotiation. You sort 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.840 of understand in yourself that there are skills that you've 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.800 got that you recognize in yourself, that you use in 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:57.440 that context. So I suppose the thing I discovered about 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:01.000 me was that this was something I knew how to do. 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:06.280 It was very challenging to carry the weight sometimes of 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:10.360 the Iran negotiations. I didn't carry it along, but I 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.400 carried it. You felt it. You'd be in a hotel 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.960 for sometimes weeks on end, trying to work through very 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:21.000 technical issues, trying to get an agreement that would hold, 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.320 and knowing the consequences of not doing it could be extreme, 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.880 and you felt that a lot. But there was a 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.719 part of me that also thought, but I know how 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:35.320 to have these conversations and how to maneuver my way, 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:37.840 how to listen for the nuance. I often say to 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.840 young diplomats, the first thing you do is listen to 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:45.560 what they're saying between the words, because when people read 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:49.439 out their speech or they give you their first line 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:53.000 of attack, they're often saying things that you've just got 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.200 to understand. And the more you can get underneath that, 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.280 the more you can work out who you're dealing with 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.280 and how to establish the kind of relationship that might 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.160 get you there that really matters. 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.920 But it's hard when you have nothing in common I 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.640 guess in terms of values with someone on the other side. 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:16.239 It's of course hard, but almost inevitably in a negotiation, 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.640 you're not negotiating with your mates. You're negotiating with people 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:24.800 who you're trying to change their behavior and who may 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.320 have very little in common with you. But of course 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.280 we're all human beings. And one of the things that 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.679 is again I think is so important is that you 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:34.319 should always find a way to do what I call 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.560 the warm up. So in all the negotiations I do, 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.120 I always spent time with people before we sat in 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.719 the formal chairs, finding out what was happening. So in 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.880 the Iran talks, I had dinner with the chief negotiator 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.480 the night before the talks. Every single time we met 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.640 with the Serbia and Kosovo dialogue, I met the two 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.559 prime ministers separately for a cup of coffee beforehand, so 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.520 you can pick up a lot of the new and 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.559 just more generally, if you sit in this big room 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:07.680 with loads of press photography going on in this big negotiation, 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.600 it's much easier to begin the conversation as I always could, 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:15.960 with thank you for dinner. It's really important to always 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:20.720 keep a sense of yourself and also a sense of humor. 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.800 There are some extraordinary moments in diplomacy and in negotiation 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.640 where people do laugh, and often when you explain that 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.360 people sort of say, how can you possibly share a 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.760 joke with ofver? But funny things happen, weird things happen, 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.360 and you have to be able to do that. It's 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:43.240 a human thing and above everything, whatever you're doing in diplomacy, 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.880 you're dealing with human beings who look at the world 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.400 in a completely different way to you, look at you 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:50.960 in a completely different way to the way you see yourself. 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.520 But they are people and somewhere along the way, if 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.800 you can find ways to connect, not to cross over 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.040 to their side, but to connect, probably got better chance 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:02.240 of getting to a solution. 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.760 We're recording this before cures. Darmer actually hosts European leaders 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:12.640 at Blenham Palace. This was basically a forum that was 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:15.320 set up by Roshisunac. So is that awkward for the 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.280 Prime Minister? What will he try and achieve from Europe? 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.120 Which is I have to say quite distracted with political matters? 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.960 Well, I mean it's a forum that Richie Snac was shairing, 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.640 but it's set, of course, an original idea by President Macron, 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:33.400 and the Foreign Office is very good working out how 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:37.520 to manage transitions from one group of people to another, 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.600 not least because actually in the previous few years we'd 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:43.800 had a number of changes both in the Foreign Office 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.280 and actually in Prime ministers, so they're kind of used 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:51.680 to a bit of that. But the fundamentals so are 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.160 already set anyway, because it's not just about what the 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.200 British want out of that agenda. It is also a 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:02.640 more collaborative discussion. I think what probably happens in the 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:06.240 differences where things come up on the agenda and how 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.480 they're dealt with, of course shows that things have changed. 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:15.080 So we shall see how that translates into what happens afterwards. 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.880 But there'll be a lot of curiosity, I'm sure as well. 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.040 You know, who is the new Prime Minister, what's he 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:25.280 like and so on, and a lot of countries wanting 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.720 to see him visit them, wanting to see how far 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.000 they can have, you know, real dialogue with him by 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.160 laterals and so on. So it's going to be quite 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:35.320 a busy time, I think. 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.960 Kathy, how much will the EU say to the UK 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:43.680 and return for collaboration on security and defense. That orcus 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:47.640 and some of that Pacific tilt needs to go or 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:49.680 may not be feasible for it to go. But how 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:53.880 much do they see the UK's attempt to build relations 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.120 around the world and in the Pacific as at odds 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:58.440 with more collaboration. 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:01.520 It was a problem in the past. I tared the 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:06.360 Defense Minister's meetings for five years, and within that there 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:10.560 was a desire to sort of try and collaborate effectively. 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:14.760 It wasn't about creating something European in the sense that 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:16.920 people sort of try and put this as a negative. 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.359 It was about how do we best use the resources 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.440 we've got, bearing in mind we effectively share the same 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:31.400 concerns and have the same issues. So within that Britain 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:36.159 already had lots of relationships other countries the same. I 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.400 don't think it will really affect it. What they'll want 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:43.280 to see is that there is a genuine desire to 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:48.280 collaborate better than we've seen in recent years, and also 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:53.040 to ensure that that fits well with NATO the EU 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:58.000 through the for example, the European Defense Agency did some 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:02.720 great work certainly that I remember on improvised explosive devices, 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:07.080 on mid air refueling, on helicopter training, all of which 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.720 benefited EU countries but also of course benefited NATO as well. 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:13.800 So getting that collaboration so that everyone benefits will be 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.119 really important. I think they'll be more interested in that 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.680 than trying to stop Britain doing things. 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:19.680 Kathy. 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.240 I mean, there's quite a lot of fury over Trump's 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.520 you know, vice presidential running mate Jdvans claimed that the 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:30.800 UK is an Islamist country with nuclear weapons. How should 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:32.960 the Prime minister deal with with comments like that? 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:35.800 Well, as I understand it, David Lammy has already established 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:42.000 some connections with the potential vice president, and I take 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:44.600 the view I've had so much rhetoric from so many 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.520 leaders over so many years that is about what I 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:51.800 call a campaign rhetoric. You know, people say things. They 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.639 say things because they're watching how the news covers issues. 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:59.479 And as you'll know in America, you can get a 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:03.040 story that you recognize as a brit but it has 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.159 a particular spin or a particular angle, such that if 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.240 you didn't know what was really going on in Britain, 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.480 you might take a particular view. And what I don't 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:12.920 know is of course why he thinks of where he's 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.840 got this from. You know, what are the news outlers saying, 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.320 what are the things he's reading? And so on. The 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.760 most important thing is that the Prime Minister or the 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.840 Foreign Secretary and others continue to work and build a 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:32.280 relationships with both camps, both potential presidents, in order that 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:34.879 the relationship that Britain has with the US, which is 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:39.120 much much deeper and much more sort of strong than 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:43.600 any individual president or Prime minister. But really try and 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.320 work at that and not get sidetracked him much by 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.640 what people say in the rhetoric, because as I say, 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.359 over the years, I've some extraordinary things being said by 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.440 leaders all over the place which you understand in their 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.920 own context, they're not talking to you, They're actually talking 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.080 to their own domestic audience in some particular way. Doesn't 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.720 make it easier, but it makes it at least comprehensible 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:07.560 from that point of view. 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:13.200 But Kathy, what is undoubted is jd Vance and others. 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.520 We interviewed Elbert Colby, who potentially will be a potential 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:22.080 Trump the Second's national security advisor and the pivot away 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:28.160 from Ukraine towards the Pacific or to China. How difficult 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.359 is that going to be for the UK and others 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:31.840 who want to support Ukraine. 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.160 I think it's really important to understand that the war 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:39.159 in Ukraine is a war on the European mainland. In 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.600 other words, this is something that we have to see 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:47.119 from our perspective. We don't necessarily always share the same 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:51.119 perspective that they do across the Atlantic. For them, because 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:55.760 of their pacific reach, they have different priorities. Doesn't mean 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:57.480 these are not priorities for us, but maybe they're a 0:20:57.480 --> 0:20:59.960 little bit lower down. But Ukraine is really really important. 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:04.760 It's really important because of the consequences of what might 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:07.679 happen in the future if Ukraine is not able to 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.920 protect its sovereignty, not able to continue as a fully 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.960 functioning state. Now, having said that, we know how important 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:17.399 the US is to the capability in the capacity of 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:23.240 Ukraine to pursue its objectives and to operate in this war. 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:27.080 So it will be important to try and make sure 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:29.880 that support happens. But as you know, well, it's not 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.240 just about the President, it's also about Congress. And you know, 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:35.320 I was up on the hill only a few weeks ago. 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:38.439 It's really important to understand it may not be as 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:42.160 simple as whatever the President or some of his advisors say. 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:46.199 It's going to be about worthy American Congress, where the 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:49.360 people are and so on. So there's an opportunity I 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:52.600 think that we can take whoever's in the White House 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:56.760 in November and beyond into January when they take office, 0:21:57.160 --> 0:21:59.160 to be able to try and influence what happens. 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.720 Kathy, what made you go into diplomacy? Would you stand 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:04.760 ready to serve if you were called to be UK 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:06.160 ambassador to the US? 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:09.280 Well, those who've read the book now I found myself 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:13.520 going into diplomacy per se, almost as a kind of 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:16.360 will certainly go into Brussels. I think the media knew 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:18.760 long before I did, because I watched it on the television, 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.480 going around on the chicker tape, thinking that's interesting, I 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:25.040 wonder if it's real. And by the end of the 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:26.960 day I was in Brussels, what I didn't know was 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:30.320 it would be six years before I came home. So 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:33.480 I believe in public service, let's put it that way. 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:36.320 And if you believe in public service, if there's something 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.320 you can usefully do, then of course you do it. 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:41.640 But that doesn't mean that there isn't a fantastic team. 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:43.880 They certainly don't need me, so let's see what happens. 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:51.119 Katy Ashton, thank you so much, Thank you thanks for 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:53.199 listening to this week's In the City from Bloomberg. This 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:55.520