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Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host

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Speaker 1: of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,

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Speaker 1: and today on the show, we're talking about glam rock animals.

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Speaker 1: Animals who are glamorous and glitzy and on occasion also

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Speaker 1: tough as a rock. From the shiny and splendiferous scale

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Speaker 1: worms of the deep to scuba diving lizards, these animals

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Speaker 1: all have one thing in common. They are one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent glam Discover This Morris answer to the angel question

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Speaker 1: was that Rainbowfish children's Book of Body Horror. Joining me

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Speaker 1: today is friend of the pod podcast person frequent voice

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Speaker 1: on Fake Doctor's Real Friends, DJ and twitch Man Dan L. Goodman.

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Speaker 2: Hi, how's it going good?

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Speaker 1: Do you mind if I call you Twitchman?

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Speaker 2: Twitch Man? That is perfect? Twitch Man is excellent. I'm

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Speaker 2: honored by the title.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm a pod woman. I feel like I

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Speaker 1: missed the times where it's like like Blacksmith or you know,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like when we have these

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Speaker 1: these names like Lamplighter or they you know, like like

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Speaker 1: we have podcaster, but like what about Podsmith.

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Speaker 2: I was just thinking, how fun Podsmith would be psmith.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like real work, which it's not.

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Speaker 2: I go to the kilns of pro tools and craft

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Speaker 2: strong by hand.

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Speaker 1: Had handblown podcast technically true because you know, you breathe

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Speaker 1: out with your mouth as you make mouth sounds. Anyways,

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Speaker 1: we are talking about glam rock animals, animals who are glamorous,

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Speaker 1: incredible looking. The rock stars of the natural Kingdom and

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Speaker 1: their glitzy and glamorous appearance have probably red reasons for it,

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Speaker 1: actual survival reasons, which we will discuss. What do you

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Speaker 1: think of when you think of glam rock in general?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, there was definitely I'll tell

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Speaker 2: you a very short story. The very first vintage T

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Speaker 2: shirt that I ever got at this place on Lobra

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Speaker 2: I called jet Rag was an old Poison T shirt,

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Speaker 2: a Poison Tour T shirt, and on the back I

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Speaker 2: think it said rock the fuck Out. And my mom

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Speaker 2: didn't see that at the time, so she let me

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Speaker 2: buy this shirt that said fuck on it, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, wow. So I think of that shirt, but

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Speaker 2: I think of hair, I think of Neon, I think

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Speaker 2: of Sparkles, I think of like yeah, so I think

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Speaker 2: of a lot of you know, we're talking wall of sound.

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Speaker 2: We're talking big, So I thought's that's what I think of.

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Speaker 1: I think everything big, hair, big, eyeliner big, yes, you know,

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Speaker 1: mega big, the hole in the ozone from the Hairspray big.

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Speaker 2: I'm perfect, yes, but yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the first animal we're going to talk about is

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Speaker 1: the Elvis war which has is named after the King

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Speaker 1: of rock Elvis, because it is iridescent and glitzy and

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Speaker 1: glamorous and also kind of an asshole.

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Speaker 2: Oh really, yeah, I mean it's not I don't think.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they named it after Elvis because it's

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Speaker 1: an asshole. But I think it's fits right because he

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Speaker 1: was kind of an ass wasn't he.

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Speaker 2: That is my understanding.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you know, I'm look, I'm keeping it real. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying Elvis. It's not cool to like Elvis, but

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah he had he had a big sound,

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Speaker 1: but also a big ego.

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Speaker 2: That is what I hear. Is my understanding as well.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to listener Vincent Jorgensen for this idea that

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I have not talked about these

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Speaker 1: on the show before, because they are incredible. They have

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Speaker 1: this rainbow and purple shimmer. Now Daniel, I want you

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Speaker 1: to look at this, this little little cutie.

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Speaker 2: I have it pulled up right here, and this is

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Speaker 2: a shimmery, a shimmery looking little worm. How big is

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Speaker 2: this worm there?

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Speaker 1: You know, I'd say about like palm sized.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's that's big.

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Speaker 1: I guess, so not that big.

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, fair fair play, but this is and this

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Speaker 2: is truly an error on my part. But looking at

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Speaker 2: this image just on the just on the raw, just

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Speaker 2: like stark black of it, it almost felt like a slide.

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Speaker 2: I was ready to be looking at like a microscopic

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Speaker 2: worm here. I was ready for you to say, yeah, oh,

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Speaker 2: you could fit about a thousand on your hand right now.

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Speaker 1: I'd be like, you know, not not not super huge.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, they are definitely like not. They are not microscopic.

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Speaker 1: They can see them with the naked eye. Hold them

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Speaker 1: in your hand, you know, let them crawl all over you.

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Speaker 2: I would get the I would get the willies. I

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Speaker 2: believe it is the willies. I'd get the willies very quickly.

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Speaker 1: I call it. Call it the Jimmy skin. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that.

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Speaker 2: Works too, that's very funny.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so they are absolutely beautiful. They look like

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Speaker 1: holographic nail polish or you know, the most the glittery,

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Speaker 1: most glittery glam that you can find. They were discovered

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Speaker 1: by a team of researchers at Script's Institute of Oceanography

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Speaker 1: at UCSD. Shout out to my dad who works at

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Speaker 1: Scripts Institute of Oceanography. He's actually in the ocean Physics group,

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Speaker 1: so they deal with the physics of waves, not necessarily

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Speaker 1: the critters, but yeah, you know.

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Speaker 2: Got it.

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Speaker 1: Good, good job, guys. Can't wait to see y'all for

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Speaker 1: a beer and I'll say, hey, good work on that worm.

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Speaker 2: You know, good, good work on that worm.

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Speaker 1: Good good warming you guys.

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Speaker 2: Oh you got me. I'm looking at this worm also,

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Speaker 2: and it reminds me. You remember the book The Rainbow Fish.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, oh oh man, I love that book as

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Speaker 1: a kid.

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Speaker 2: Just very similar color scheme of just like that, you know,

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Speaker 2: super iridescent glowy but also like some solid color but

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Speaker 2: also looks like there's just like super flex of rainbow everywhere. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: just trying to paint as as vivid stone a picture

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Speaker 2: as I possibly can of this world. I'm like cat

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Speaker 2: I right now, you know, man, it's like that book

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Speaker 2: The Rainbow fish.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's like they had this like iridescent glittery

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Speaker 1: scales on this fish. It was so fun as a

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Speaker 1: kid because you could like touch it and like feel

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Speaker 1: like embossed are fun. Yes, it was also I feel

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Speaker 1: kind of sorry for the rainbow fish because it was

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Speaker 1: like he's got all these rainbow scales on him, right,

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Speaker 1: and like his fish friends who don't have those are jealous.

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Speaker 1: So he it's a book about sharing, like you share

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Speaker 1: this with others and generally speak, I'm very pro sharing,

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Speaker 1: you know, pro sharing sure, yeah, or resources with others.

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Speaker 1: But it's part of his body.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it's different, a little.

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Speaker 1: Strange, right of a weird message. It's like if you

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Speaker 1: are hanging out with friends and you're like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: really like your hair, and you're like you do it

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Speaker 1: and then you just like cut off a big trip

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Speaker 1: here you go rip it off.

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Speaker 2: And that's the thing. And that's the thing with kids

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Speaker 2: that are unpredictable. It's like they'll take the note to

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Speaker 2: the letter. So it's like, I know the story of

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Speaker 2: the room. It's about sharing. They're like, okay, so I

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Speaker 2: like rip off my skin for my friends, like no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: no no, no, no, not quite that.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, that is a horrible kindergarten scene that

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Speaker 1: I do not want to see. But so yeah, these

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Speaker 1: do look these do look like the rainbow fish. They

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Speaker 1: are They are in fact a worm, I know, like

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Speaker 1: sometimes we call things worms, but they aren't really, but

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Speaker 1: they are. They are warm. They're actually a type of

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Speaker 1: scale worm, uh and which is actually related to very

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Speaker 1: distantly related to earthworms, a little more closely related to

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Speaker 1: bristle worms. You may know some bristle worms, like there

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Speaker 1: is We've talked about some of them on the show,

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Speaker 1: like the bobbit worm. This horrifying tremors. Like did I

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Speaker 1: were you on the show and I.

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Speaker 2: Talked about the bottom I think I was, Wow, I

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Speaker 2: love it.

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Speaker 1: I love how somehow that worked out. But I did

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Speaker 1: not plan for that.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna say, I feel like we talked about

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Speaker 2: like a I remember you described something as a tremor's

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Speaker 2: like worm, and I was like, wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: Well I'm flattered either way, but like if it was

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Speaker 1: if it's a worm that lives under the sand at

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Speaker 1: the bottom of the sea, it lunges out of the

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Speaker 1: sand and will grab onto an unsuspecting fish and pull

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Speaker 1: them back down, sort of like a tremor's worm or

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Speaker 1: like a sarlac. But it's also very shiny and iridescent.

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Speaker 1: Now it's it's not super closely related to this one,

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Speaker 1: but fairly it's it's a bristleworm. So they they are,

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Speaker 1: you know, so scale. But this the Elvis, it's actually

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Speaker 1: called p elvis. I gotta gotta have it sound scientific.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna say it's got sound though, sound good.

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Speaker 2: That's so funny.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, they did name it that because of its

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Speaker 1: sort of glittery, glamorous look that they thought looked flashy

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Speaker 1: like Elvis. And so here's what it looks like. So

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Speaker 1: it's not it doesn't actually look super like a worm

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Speaker 1: like you think of an earthworm. It has a series

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Speaker 1: of interlocking scales on its back that are shiny like that.

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Speaker 1: It's like it looks like plate armor, and it's kind

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Speaker 1: of flat, very shiny and eardescent. And underneath it it

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Speaker 1: has these gold shiny bristles jutting out of it that

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Speaker 1: you might mistake for legs, but aren't actually legs. They're

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Speaker 1: just these these bristles. And at its head it has

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Speaker 1: these things that look a little bit like pincers. They're

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Speaker 1: actually not quite pincers. They're called pelps. So pelps are

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Speaker 1: these appendages at the heads near the mouths of arthropods.

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Speaker 1: You can see them in spiders and insects as well,

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Speaker 1: So those are its pelps. And so yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: kind of but it's it's rather flat looking and it's

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Speaker 1: kind of oval shaped and so like you know, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of alien and bizarre looking. But it gets way

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Speaker 1: weirder than what you can just see at a glance.

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Speaker 2: So being on this show, you know, I will say

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Speaker 2: I wasn't entirely surprised by that potential, but like I'm excited,

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Speaker 2: please go on. I had to drop when you said that.

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Speaker 2: I was like, you know, I had a feeling you

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Speaker 2: were gonna say, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, there's always something hidden underneath the surface

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Speaker 1: for these animals. So like these are found in the

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Speaker 1: deep sea near like hydrothermic vents, as well as on

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Speaker 1: the carcasses of fallen sea creatures, including whales. So when

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Speaker 1: whales die, it's certainly sad for the whales, but it's

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Speaker 1: a great boon for all of these underwater arthropods, these

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Speaker 1: deep sea creatures that will feed on the whale's carcass,

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Speaker 1: and it can feed a hell of a lot of

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Speaker 1: animals in life.

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Speaker 2: I have a question, isn't there a term for like

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Speaker 2: the kind of like minor or like micro ecosystem created

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Speaker 2: by a whale carcass? Am I thinking, am, I could

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Speaker 2: be I may, I may just be this. I could

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Speaker 2: be pulling this all the way out of my ass

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Speaker 2: right here. But I felt like there was some word

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Speaker 2: for like the micro ecosystem created ecro micro ecosystem created

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Speaker 2: by a dead whale in the ocean, because like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're right, feel that.

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Speaker 1: I feel that, I feel like there is I mean,

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Speaker 1: I thought it had a specific I mean I think

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Speaker 1: it's called like whale fall action whale fall.

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Speaker 2: I think that's it. Yeah, I think you're right. Whale fall.

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Speaker 2: That's it. You're right, whale fall. That's it. Nice. Yeah

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Speaker 2: that was the whale fall.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for reminding me that that term exists.

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Speaker 1: It is a cool like whale fall. Yeah, so, I

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Speaker 1: mean it's pretty straightforward. I guess it's what a whale

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Speaker 1: falls to, but yeah, it is. It's something where there's

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Speaker 1: something kind of grim and ghoulish about it, seeing this

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Speaker 1: decaying whale but it's also incredible how much life that

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Speaker 1: can support. It's kind of like when a tree falls,

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Speaker 1: a huge tree falls in the forest. There's something sad

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Speaker 1: about that, right, this ancient tree falling and decaying, But

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Speaker 1: then that tree feeds so many animals. In fact, an

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Speaker 1: animal we're gonna talk about later on the show. A

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Speaker 1: lot of these glamorous animals like to feed on dead things,

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Speaker 1: but hey, look, you know it's a living so they

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Speaker 1: will feed on things like whale carcasses. I know that

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Speaker 1: the research team that collected some of these specimens actually

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Speaker 1: found them on a whale carcass, so that must have

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Speaker 1: been a fun treat. You're like zooming around looking at

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Speaker 1: this whale carcass all it's all strange and kind of creepy.

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Speaker 1: And then you see this like glitterus glamorous little scale

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Speaker 1: where I'm going like, hello, I'm here, and here I

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Speaker 1: am eating a dead whale. I don't know how Elvi sounds.

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Speaker 2: You know, just like you, I was transported, you know

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying?

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Speaker 1: Dead? Who that's a little better.

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Speaker 3: Okay words, But like I said, like Elvis, not only

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Speaker 3: in appearance, but a little bit assholely.

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Speaker 1: They like to bite each other when they're not biting

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Speaker 1: on some delicious whale fall carcass. So they that is

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons that they have these scales is

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Speaker 1: for protections. Protection not only from other animals and predator,

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Speaker 1: but from their.

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Speaker 2: Competition literally from each other.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, from each other, and when they bite each other.

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Speaker 1: It's fascinating. So I want you to, before I say

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Speaker 1: anything else, just take a look at that picture that

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Speaker 1: I've provided for you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm horrified. Obviously, this is a terrifying

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Speaker 2: picture of a dean. I'm seeing a demon of the

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Speaker 2: suit with it's almost like I want to say, I mean, okay, okay,

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Speaker 2: it looks like a faceless worm with a with a

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Speaker 2: like a bird's beak coming out of the center, but

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Speaker 2: it's surrounded by like a statue of liberty of like

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Speaker 2: it's just outward appendages, Like I know they're not horns,

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Speaker 2: but it looks like a wreath of horns sticking out

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Speaker 2: around a bird's mouth coming out of an eyeless worm. Demon.

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Speaker 1: That's about right. They actually have a proboscis that they

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Speaker 1: can avert. So a proboscis is basically like a fleshy probe.

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Speaker 1: It can mean like a nose. It can mean a

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Speaker 1: variety of different things, but it's basically a flesh probe,

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Speaker 1: which is flesh probe. It's not really that's not really

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Speaker 1: a gl rock name is.

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Speaker 2: It could be a song though, could be a song.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this show is good at producing metal

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Speaker 1: names more than glen Rock names like flush probe. So

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Speaker 1: they can evert it, which means basically like pushing it

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Speaker 1: out from inside of them. And then in this proboscis,

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Speaker 1: what you're seeing is a set of jaws, set of

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Speaker 1: sharp jaws that they can use to snap at their

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Speaker 1: food source like a dead whale, or each other if

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Speaker 1: they if they're feeling feisty. Okay, so just you know,

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Speaker 1: like in Aliens, like how the alien shoots out a

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Speaker 1: smaller alien tongue with the set of jaws. It's just

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Speaker 1: like that. It's like boop, I'm gonna snap you up.

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Speaker 1: Another similar feature of the of the bob At Warmer.

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Speaker 1: They can just basically shoot out a thing and like

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Speaker 1: snap up. So do check out this video. I'm also

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Speaker 1: including all this in the show notes as always, But

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Speaker 1: there is a cool video of them.

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Speaker 2: Okay, oh there they are, Oh well, yeah, they are

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Speaker 2: pretty their sizable. Oh yeah, you'd see them. They're they're real.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh, you just stuck his tongue out one of

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Speaker 2: the other ones, gonna do it, I bet Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, he's so patient. Ooh goodness, he got

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Speaker 2: a grip.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm.

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Speaker 2: Whoa.

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Speaker 1: In fact, their fights can be so violent that they

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Speaker 1: can rip the scales off of each other. So a

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Speaker 1: pretty like dark reboot of The Rainbow Fish where it's

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Speaker 1: just violently ripping off each other's scales.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, my scale, No, my scale.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, that thing that looks like a tongue like

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Speaker 1: it's going like boop, that's actually it's proboscis. And it

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Speaker 1: has that gnarly set of jaws in the center of

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Speaker 1: it that it's using to bite that other elvis worm.

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Speaker 2: That is a lot. Yeah, that's a lot right there.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: I bet you're wondering why they're so iridescent and shiny

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Speaker 1: and beautiful.

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Speaker 2: That's that's I mean, that's you know, that's on the

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Speaker 2: list of questions mostly I'm I I.

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Speaker 1: Wonder it too, but I don't know, and nobody knows.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that fun When I'm just like, hey, you wonder

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Speaker 1: this thing. Sorry, nobody knows.

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Speaker 2: It's literally don't you wish you could just ask them, like, Hey.

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Speaker 1: What's up? Why are you guys so angry all the time?

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Speaker 1: What's with that weird like mouth boop thing that you do? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, so they are actually blind. There's no reason

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Speaker 1: for them to need this aridescence for like conspecific communication,

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Speaker 1: So like it's probably not for sexual selection or anything

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Speaker 1: like that because they can't see it. Uh, It's possible

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Speaker 1: it's for some some way of crypsis, I suppose. Seems unlikely.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it would just make them stick out. However,

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Speaker 1: in these deep sea and ronments, you never know, Like

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Speaker 1: how that I wonder, like maybe it interacts strangely with bioluminescence.

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Speaker 1: That's a possible thing, Like the refraction of bioluminescence may

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Speaker 1: have some advantage. My suspicion is that it actually serves

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Speaker 1: no purpose the actual visual of it. Rather, it's just

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Speaker 1: a byproduct of forming these tough scales. So like having

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Speaker 1: these very tough maybe crystalline structures in its scales, the

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Speaker 1: nature of having them really tough at this molecular level

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Speaker 1: also affects like how light is refracted off of the

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Speaker 1: surface of these scales, so that would be sort of,

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Speaker 1: my guess, is just a byproduct of making sure that

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Speaker 1: these scales are really tough. Yes, okay, I mean, like

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Speaker 1: you think about how like a diamond is really tough

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Speaker 1: and it's beautiful and it's hiering glittery.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes sense absolutely. I by one thousand percent.

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Speaker 1: I'm with you, And I also like that, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's really subverting expectations, like to be tough, you

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Speaker 1: have to be glamorous. I like that.

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Speaker 2: To the first first you must shine.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of the bobbit worm, twenty million year old fossilized

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Speaker 1: tunnels have been discovered beneath the ocean floor, over seven

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Speaker 1: feet or two meters long, but only a couple centimeters

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Speaker 1: wide in diameter. It's thought that these were once home

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Speaker 1: to an incredibly long worm, perhaps the ancestors of the

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Speaker 1: bobbit worm, as there's fossilized imprints made by these worms

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Speaker 1: that seem to indicate they use these tunnels to drag

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Speaker 1: their prey to an extra deep and watery grave. When

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Speaker 1: we return, we're going to talk about a thought provoking

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Speaker 1: intersection of fashion and entomology, though Daniel. You know that

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Speaker 1: animals and humans have a weird relationship sometimes, Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: I mean, for instance, like my dog, I think only

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Speaker 1: sees me as like the peanut butter provider.

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Speaker 2: You know, at least a peanut butter warm blanket.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's true, a warm blanket.

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Speaker 2: Peanut butter human radiator, a butt.

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Speaker 1: Scratcher and peanut provider, peanut butter provider.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm king butt scratcher. I'll tell you what I

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Speaker 2: feel like. That's it. I feel like that, if I'm

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Speaker 2: being real, Everybody's like, oh, that's a trick with dogs.

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Speaker 2: They love getting scratched on the butt. Like, at what

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Speaker 2: point is it not a trick anymore? It's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: of course a dog loves a good butt scratch right there. Right,

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Speaker 2: that's just you know, that's it. That baseline baseline dog knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Are they sing? It's like a Konami code for a dog.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like the dogs are fair

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Speaker 1: really obvious about one. I mean, like my dog Cookie,

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Speaker 1: Cookie will literally walk up to She does this every

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Speaker 1: day all day, like this is her favorite thing to do,

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Speaker 1: not joking, walk up to you, turn around so her

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Speaker 1: butt is near you, and then look over her shoulder

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Speaker 1: as you know, like kind of look between you and

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Speaker 1: the butt like exactly you're doing it. Yeah, eh eh,

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Speaker 1: thinking about this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, gotch And you can like.

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Speaker 1: Hold your hand out and start wiggling your fingers and

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Speaker 1: she will come over and sort of like dock her

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Speaker 1: butt under your fingers and then so you can scratch it.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that is a smart that's smart Cookie you got

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Speaker 2: raised there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's smart whenever it serves her own insist.

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Speaker 2: I love that. A purpose like a purposely smart and

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Speaker 2: stupid dog. That's like, Cookie, we need you to do

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Speaker 2: this right now. I don't know. I'm a dog. I

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Speaker 2: don't speak.

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Speaker 1: And then they say you want to get your butt scratched?

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Speaker 1: She knows that. She knows what that means.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I want to get my butt scratched.

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Speaker 1: You got hearing? That's what she knows. What a CHICKI

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Speaker 1: pill is. When I she has these like chicken flavored,

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Speaker 1: chicken flavored hip point supplements and if you want to

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Speaker 1: you want a chicky pill, she knows what that means.

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Speaker 1: When I say you gotta sit, she doesn't know what

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Speaker 1: that means. That suddenly doesn't know what that means.

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Speaker 2: Have you seen that since this episode. It's like the

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Speaker 2: thing that translates baby talk, but or like translates animal talk. Oh,

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Speaker 2: like what is your animals saying? It's like this leash

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Speaker 2: demeans us. Both great. I wait for that day. I

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Speaker 2: wait for that day where we get that where we

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Speaker 2: get the translation device. And Cookie was just saying, look,

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Speaker 2: I sit on my own schedule.

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Speaker 1: Okay, right right, that you shall provide me with butt scratch,

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Speaker 1: cheese and peanut butter. Your services for anything else are

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Speaker 1: not required.

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Speaker 2: Not required. That's funny.

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Speaker 1: But so that's all to say that I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about something that it's both really interesting and it

405
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Speaker 1: provokes a lot of thought in conversation. I think about,

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Speaker 1: like our relationship to animals, because we're talking about insects,

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Speaker 1: and our feelings toward insects as a species can range

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Speaker 1: from like they are delicious food to they are gross

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Speaker 1: and I don't want anything to do with them, to

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Speaker 1: their beautiful jewelry. So I think one case that really

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Speaker 1: exemplifies this complex relationship we have with insects are the

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Speaker 1: beautiful bejeweled living beetle jewelry originating from the Yucatan Peninsula

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Speaker 1: in Mexico. So these living brooches are called makesh So

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Speaker 1: they are beetles of the Zoferis genus, which is a

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Speaker 1: group of species of beetles who are kind of long

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Speaker 1: with this very like thick exoskeleton. They're kind of shaped

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Speaker 1: like bowling pins a little bit. In fact, their exoskeleton

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Speaker 1: is so tough. There is a species called the ironclad beetle.

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Speaker 1: And if you're trying to mount them as a specimen,

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Speaker 1: you know how like you have like a butterfly specimen

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Speaker 1: where you stick a pin in it. They do that

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Speaker 1: for all all sorts of insects. You actually have to

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Speaker 1: drill a hole into them because you can't just push

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Speaker 1: a pin through it there. They're oh yeah, they're They're

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Speaker 1: exoskeleton is that tough? So they are flightless. They have

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Speaker 1: this little stubby head around thorax, so the thing that

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Speaker 1: actually kind of looks like their head is actually their thorax.

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Speaker 1: And then they have a long oval abdomen and they

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Speaker 1: range in color from black to sort of a black

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Speaker 1: and white pattern, lots of other different colors. They also

431
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: come in this like really pretty gold color, not not

432
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: a shiny gold, but kind of a matte gold. And

433
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: it's this species, this kind of gold sofitera species that

434
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: is often used for mkesh jewelry. So the jewelry is

435
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: made by taking a living beetle and gluing like rhinestones

436
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: on it or a variety of jewels or decorations on it,

437
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: or something like colorful thread or other ornaments. So there's

438
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: like some adhesive is used, like some kind of glue, uh,

439
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: and then like you you bedazzle the beetle, and then

440
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: they attach a gold chain to the beetle just by

441
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 1: gluing it. And then that's attached to like a pin

442
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: that you pin to your blouse, and the beetle crawls

443
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: around on your blouse. It's it's still alive and just

444
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: kind of like crawls around with all of this this

445
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: sort of bedazzlement, and it's hard to know like when

446
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: the tradition started. There's a lot of like, uh, sort

447
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: of mixed information on it, and it's you know, I

448
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: don't think that I'm comfortable, you know, saying anything definitively

449
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: because it doesn't seem like it's been studied definitively in

450
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: terms of like the order of the cultural practice. This

451
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 1: particular beetle them cash is actually the name of the jewelry,

452
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: but the zofers beetle chosen because it's got this kind

453
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: of slow, sluggish nature. It's pretty chill, it's got that

454
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: pretty exoskeleton, but it can also survive for months without

455
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: food or water. So ah man, yeah, I know, so,

456
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's like, it sounds pretty creepy. So

457
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: we'll get to more of that, but first I want

458
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: to talk about the beetles in the wild. So in

459
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: the wild, the beetles live in dry forests and feed

460
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: on rotting wood starches. So we're talking about earlier. You know,

461
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: like the whale fall, well with tree fall it gets

462
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: tree fall is great for a lot of organisms and

463
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: forest environments. These beetles are one of them. They have

464
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: a metabolism that allows them to survive on small amounts

465
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: of starch in very little water. So in theory, if

466
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: you treat a mkesh beetle righte like you have a terrarium,

467
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: and you provide them with some starch and just like

468
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: a little bit of water like a moist sponge, you

469
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: can keep them alive for their whole lifespan of about

470
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: three years. But of course there's a few catches to this,

471
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: as there are for most things. When we when we

472
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: were talking about using animals for our own purposes, first

473
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: and foremost is that they can spew formic acid out

474
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: of their anus.

475
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: Great.

476
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 1: I mean actually to me, that's like a benefit, Like

477
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: I want to broach that, like you know, like I

478
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: kind of poke it and it just like sprays out

479
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: formic acid. That's that's a great James Bond weapon.

480
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 2: That is a great James Bond weapon. Very like, right now,

481
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 2: what are the what are the effects of that kind

482
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: of acid on your skin? Or is it smelly? Is it?

483
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: Is it? It's unpleasant?

484
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 1: It gives you, Yeah, it could give you a bad

485
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 1: skin rash, like wow, not a fun time. Yeah, you shouldn't,

486
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: you know, try not to get it. Yeah, you don't

487
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 1: want to get it on you. Traditionally, that issue has

488
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: been sold by making the beetles very tiny diapers, like

489
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: a little cloth Yeah, like a little cloth diaper that

490
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: goes near their backside and just sort of absorbs up

491
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: that thing, the formic acid. Unfortunately, I was reading something

492
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: that seemed to indicate I don't know how true this is,

493
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: but there was some like rumor about like how some

494
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 1: vendors will use glue to actually seal up the anus,

495
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: and then that's bad, like you can't do that, it's

496
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: it'll it'll kill the beetle. And so of course, I

497
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: think the issue that is probably on a lot of

498
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: people's minds is like, well, is this cruel? Is this

499
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: cruelty towards these beetles? And I think it's really it's

500
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: a really complex issue. And I think whenever there's like

501
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: a different cultural practice than our own, it's really easy

502
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: for us to go like, oh, this is cruel or

503
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: this is this is strange. It's like sure too strange

504
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: because you know, it's like it's not normalized in our society,

505
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: so like right, like in the way that a lot

506
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: of our practices towards animals are like you know, so

507
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: I think that the fact like it's living jewelry is

508
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: so such an unusual concept that I think it's easier

509
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: to think of it as like, oh, man, that's unnecessary

510
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: and kind of cruel. But then you think about a

511
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: lot of the things that we do in our culture.

512
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: We kill insects all the time, yes, and not super

513
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: nice ways. We also you know, just in our homes,

514
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: like we kill pests all the time. Look I'm not

515
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: above killing, you know, ants who try to eat all

516
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: my cereal.

517
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: I would be lying if I said I hadn't killed

518
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: a bug before. That's it's foolish. I do my best

519
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: to be, you know, sympathetic, especially to our spider friends

520
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: who do a lot of the bug killing for us.

521
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: But like, look, I've smashed them flies. I've smashed them bugs.

522
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: That's just fast matter. I'm not it is.

523
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: I try to relocate spiders whenever I find them, but

524
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: I have to admit, like a few weeks ago, I

525
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: saw a pretty big spider and just instinctively stomped it,

526
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: like I didn't even think, and then immediately after something's like.

527
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so sorry that immediate up, I don't It's okay.

528
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: So you know, we we kill insects all the time,

529
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: and so you know, I feel like this aspect of like, oh,

530
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: it's really cruel to do this is somewhat relative. The

531
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: other argument would be like, well, but you know we

532
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: kill insex maybe out of necessity. Keeping them as an

533
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: ornament in this way like seems sort of unnecessary. It's like, well,

534
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: we also have things like we have state fairs where

535
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: we have food animals. There for you know, entertainment purposes,

536
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: and like we'll we'll have like petting zoos with animals

537
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: that will eventually go and be used for food. So

538
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: I guess my point is, like, there are certainly complaints

539
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: you can have about certain cultural practices when it comes

540
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: to animals, but I'm always hesitant to like point the

541
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: finger at another culture where it's like, ah, see this

542
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: this thing that they do that we don't do, like

543
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: that that's super that's super weird.

544
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: You know what I mean, Yeah, absolutely, and I think

545
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: that's I think that's completely fair. My only complaint would

546
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 2: be that I think the I mean, maybe it's you know,

547
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: and as I explore the culture of this a little

548
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: bit more and I see in your picture down here,

549
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: there's definitely Katie. But by the way, for all the listeners,

550
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: Katie has provided excellent resources for the for the guests

551
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: to look at it and and get familiar with and

552
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: just like see what is what what we're talking about.

553
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: I'm surprised these people aren't going further with the bug itself.

554
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: Like you know, I mean, like add a little top

555
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: hat or yeah, or just like it.

556
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: Maybe it may it might just be the video, but

557
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 2: it's like this seems pretty like Ryan Stones on some

558
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: gold chains kind of shit when we could get some

559
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: real like I mean, you know, if this is a

560
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: cultural thing here, I could see some like Swarovsky ass

561
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: like really glitzed up, glitzed up bugs crawling around on

562
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: your chest, premium bugs. Premium bugs.

563
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think that. I mean, these aren't

564
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: necessarily super super fancy things like they you know, they

565
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: often sell them for not that much money, like it

566
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: could be like chin us dollars or something. And you know,

567
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: it's also often sold to tourists, so I'm not super

568
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: clear on how much of it is directed towards tourists

569
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: to the area, and like how much of it is

570
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: that locals do just sort of as a local tradition.

571
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: So it's you know, I can't pretend to be a

572
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: cultural expert on this, and I couldn't quite sus that

573
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: out in my research. But there is one thing that

574
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: the artists who do this do seem to try to

575
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: do is they don't like inhibit the Beatles movement, so

576
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: they keep it like to the backs of the Beetles,

577
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: so they don't like put it, you know, like on

578
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: their actual heads, like it looks like it's on their heads,

579
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: but that's actually their thorax. Yeah, and they don't like

580
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: put it on their legs or anything, so they can

581
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: because like the point is for them to still be

582
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: able to move around as long as they're not putting

583
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: glue on the butt. I don't think. I mean, I'm

584
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: sure that like the bejeweling of the Beatles isn't great

585
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: for the beetles, but I don't think it necessarily is

586
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: that all that harmful again, because they have that really

587
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,719
Speaker 1: thick exoskeleton. The harmful thing would be, of course, if

588
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: you don't like feed it or you know, like you know,

589
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: actually keep it in a terrarium, if you just kind

590
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: of like keep it in a drawer for a few

591
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: months until it dies like that, then the beetle will

592
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: not survive that. For me, I guess like the main uh,

593
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: the main issue I think that needs to be explored

594
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: by ecologists, which I mean as they are doing. I'm

595
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: not scolding them like a cologists get on this, but

596
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: is whether or not like this is sustainable for the

597
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 1: beetle population, because like on a local level it's probably fine,

598
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: but if it gains a huge amount of popularity with

599
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: tourists collection of the beetles may exceed their ability to reproduce.

600
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: The beetles are really like they have a very slow

601
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: lifespan compared to other insects like they It takes them

602
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: a long time to reach sexual maturation. They don't lay

603
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: a huge amount of eggs. It's hard to estimate their

604
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: population size because they like to live under lugs, like

605
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: underleaf litter and lugs, so like, actually finding them is

606
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: kind of difficult. So getting a good sort of sensus

607
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: of how many of these beetles are out there is

608
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: actually quite tricky. But because they don't seem to reproduce

609
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: that rapidly, there's fear that without some regulation, like, there

610
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: could be over collection of the beetles and that would

611
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: endanger their population, which I think just kind of shows

612
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: how like it's really important for ecologists and biologists to

613
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: work with people who study human culture to be able

614
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: to come together and research things together so that we

615
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: can figure out ways to both preserve human culture but

616
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: also preserve nature.

617
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 2: Teamwork makes the dream work.

618
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: Couldn't have said it better myself.

619
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 2: Amen.

620
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: The makesh is not the only insect worn as jewelry

621
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: in ancient Egypt. Scarab beetles were worn by soldiers to

622
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: offer them spiritual protection, and in two thousand and six,

623
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: fashion designer Jared Gold included giant hissing cockroaches in his collection,

624
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 1: basically copying the style of the makesh brooches by bedazzling

625
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: his cockroaches with Swarovsky crystals and keeping them on a

626
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: golden chain. These runway ready cockroaches came with instructions of

627
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 1: how to care for them and could live for over

628
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: a year. Personally, I'm content to just admire the natural

629
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: beauty of hissing cockroaches from nature photographs. When you return,

630
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: we're gonna investigate a lizard. These aquatic fashion is all

631
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: about function, So now I want to talk about an

632
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 1: extremely glamorous lizard that I think gives like David Bowie

633
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: a run for his money in terms of like how

634
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: incredibly shiny they are and also just how I don't know,

635
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 1: you know, how like like the Space Odyssey thing. Will

636
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: these lizards like to go under the water and be

637
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: little little diver diverman? Okay, what's the what's the David

638
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 1: Bowie thing? It's like Rocketman? Right, yeah, Rocketman?

639
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 2: Or is that Elton John That'ston John. Is he glamor

640
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 2: the Ziggie startist. Yeah, I mean like that's very yeah,

641
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 2: David Bowie is super super glam.

642
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: Elton John glamrock not really is he.

643
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 2: I'm going to google is Elton John glamrock?

644
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: This is very important for an evolutionary biology podcast to

645
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 1: know whether Elton.

646
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 2: John is I would say so other performers associated with British.

647
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: Glam I see, I see. I mean, I guess it

648
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: depends on whether you're using the phylogenetic classification system or

649
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: the linean classification system of glam rock.

650
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll say this. You know, look, the only

651
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 2: people who are going to get mad at you about

652
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 2: someone being or not being glam rock are the Yeah,

653
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:52,280
Speaker 2: exactly aggressive glam rock. British glam was very strictly different

654
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 2: from us glamrock, and I think that needs to be noted.

655
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: He actually fits more in the mod category.

656
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 2: Thing you very much, but he's certainly glamorous and certainly

657
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: a rocker. We'll go. We'll definitely go with that.

658
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: Instead of spending time in outer space in a spacesuit,

659
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 1: these lizards like to spend time underwater in a water

660
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: suit or an airsuit anyways, a diver suit a diver suit.

661
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: So these are water Annolly's aka scuba diving lizards. So,

662
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 1: water nollys are a species of small lizards found in

663
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: Costa Rica and Central America. They're pretty small. They're about

664
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 1: the size of a thumb. They are brown, although males

665
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: do have this brilliant yellow do lap. So what's a

666
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,439
Speaker 1: do lap. It's a flap of skin under their chin

667
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: they can fan out, which they use to attract females

668
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: and intimidate males. What I mean, have you ever seen

669
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: a lizard like like kind of stunting, like, you know,

670
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: flapping out its stew lap?

671
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: For sure? For sure? You know, for a second I thought,

672
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: so I'm, you know, not skipping out head per se.

673
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 2: But I'm looking at this picture and I thought for

674
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: a split second that its do lap was the clear

675
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 2: thing coming out of its nose, which is an air bubble.

676
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 2: Is he's got the do lap on the top of

677
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 2: his head. Now it's clear and he can breathe it.

678
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: I think I forgot to include an image of the

679
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: do lap, but it's very pretty.

680
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: It's like this brilliant yellow wo awesome.

681
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 1: The ladies love a do lap.

682
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 2: The ladies love a doude.

683
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: But because these little lizards are such tasty little snacks,

684
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: not just for the females of their species, but you know,

685
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: for predators, and they're not like the fastest lizards in

686
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: the land. They will take to the water to escape predators.

687
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: They'll literally leap off of a rock and belly flop

688
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: into the water. And so once underwater they are safe

689
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: from a lot of terrestrial or airborne predators. But they

690
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: need to breathe because you know, they can't. They I

691
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: can't breathe water. These are reptiles, they are They do

692
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: not although you know, there are some reptiles like turtles

693
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: who do do gas exchange near an area near their cloaca,

694
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: aka their butthole, but these lizards cannot. We have no

695
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: evidence to suggest that these lizards can breed through their

696
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: buttholes like turtles. I know, darn it. God, I hate

697
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: it when I'm like swimming and I'm like, wait, let

698
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: me try it, let me try it for a second.

699
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: I can't do it. I can't breathe through my butt.

700
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: So they have a problem because they either stand or

701
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 1: water and drown, or they go above the water and

702
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: get eaten by a predator. So there is recent observations

703
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: of these lizards that seem to suggest that they can

704
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: create a wetsuit made out of air and form a

705
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: bubble around their head that they can breed through.

706
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 2: This is I you know, truly again, your research is

707
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 2: so good. You've videos. I could not even imagine what

708
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 2: this would look like, but now I have a video

709
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,240
Speaker 2: to look at, and it is extraordinary. I'm like blown

710
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 2: away that they're able to, like what is holding the

711
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 2: water to their face this way?

712
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: That's a really good question. And while I haven't been

713
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: able to find studies that are really exact about it,

714
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 1: I would say that it is very similar to other

715
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: times that we see water adhering to animals underwater. So

716
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: with their diving bell spiders that can actually go underwater

717
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 1: and water, they will also form these kind of underwater

718
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: For the spiders, it's like this diving bell that this

719
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: little bubble that surrounds them that they can do gas

720
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: exchange through. And for them, the air sticks to these

721
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: teeny tiny little hairs all over their bodies. So the

722
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 1: air literally sticks to these really small fine hairs. For

723
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: these lizards, I don't think they rely on hairs rather,

724
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: I think it's the skin texture. So I think they

725
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: have these probably these really tiny stroke ructures on their skin,

726
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: like these little tiny, probably microscopic indentations and texture on

727
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: their skin that actually traps air on their skin and

728
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 1: holds onto it through sort of a manner of surface tension.

729
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: I mean, even like when you dive underwater, sometimes little

730
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: bubbles can stick to your skin and you can see

731
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 1: little air bubbles still sticking to you. But like for

732
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: these lizards, their skin is such that I think it's

733
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: probably you have really small structures on their skin that

734
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: is able to really cling onto this water such that

735
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: you look at these lizards and underwater, it looks like

736
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: they have this whole silvery sheen all over it, like

737
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: their skin is made out of a mirror like material

738
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: and that's all that trapped air all over their body,

739
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: reflecting light underwater like a mirror.

740
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: That's so cool.

741
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like it's beautiful. It's one of those things

742
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: where are like, wow, why do they look this cool?

743
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: And then they come out of water and you're like, eh, okay.

744
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 2: Hey, you know what, I'll save it, save it for

745
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: the underwater crowd, you know, if they want to be

746
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 2: less less shiny on top save for the underwater crowd.

747
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 2: They deserve it more. They're not trying to eat you

748
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 2: as much.

749
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, So they can form this bubble around their head.

750
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 1: And while this the research on this is by no

751
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: means complete, so this is all conjecture at this point,

752
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: there's this idea that their heads have this kind of

753
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 1: concave structure just so this air bubble can form, like

754
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: this pocket can form over their nostrils, and when they

755
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: like breathe out, it kind of bubbles up, and they

756
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: breathe in and it kind of bubbles down. So it's

757
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: like this little bubble going up and down as they breathe.

758
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 2: Makes that's that's so wild. Again, if I didn't have

759
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: this video, I wouldn't be able to put it together.

760
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I could understand and imagine, but

761
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 2: it's just like it's truly a bubble coming off of

762
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:08,720
Speaker 2: their face and then just sucking back in, right, you know. Wild,

763
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 2: Like have you ever like.

764
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: Blown a bubble with some bubble gum and instead of

765
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: just like blowing the bubble, you kind of like breathe

766
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: in and out. You're like yeah, and then you do

767
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: like a Darth Vader voice I'm here to chop off

768
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: hands and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of

769
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:26,439
Speaker 1: bubble gum?

770
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: Could you imagine I want to see that recut? Wow?

771
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean your reaction is kind of similar

772
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: to researchers who discovered this because they just incidentally discovered

773
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: that they that they seem to breathe this way through observations.

774
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 1: They put underwater cameras down there because they noticed that

775
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: some of these lizards would like dive underwater and then

776
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: they would pop up a few feet away. But some

777
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: of them would dive underwater and then just disappear, and

778
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: they're like, now that can't be right, Like that can't

779
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: be a good survival strategy to just drown yourself whenever

780
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: a predator comes at you. So sure enough, they found

781
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: that these guys can spend up to about fifteen minutes underwater,

782
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: and using these underwater cameras, they found this behavior of

783
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: like them seeming to breathe through these bubbles. Now, it

784
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:26,240
Speaker 1: hasn't been like scientifically proven that they are actually breathing

785
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: through these bubbles. It's just observation, like you looking at

786
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,439
Speaker 1: this video, but it seems fairly likely that that's the case,

787
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: because that seems to be what's going on.

788
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 2: Wow.

789
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: And also because they can last so long underwater, it

790
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: seems like this keeps them last longer without having to

791
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: hold their breath the whole time.

792
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 2: Wow. These are fascinating little beasts right here.

793
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: They really are.

794
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: You've really done it.

795
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: And they're so shiny. I love how just like they

796
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: have like meer skin, you know what I mean.

797
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: Shit, totally the shine, especially like again that it's primarily

798
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: for the underwater crowd. It's like they're just so so

799
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: so shiny, and it almost I almost feel like you

800
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 2: would mistake it. I mean you shouldn't say mistake it,

801
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 2: but like you might think that there's like a small

802
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 2: like pocket knife in the water if you were to

803
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 2: look right and see just like the body of one

804
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 2: of these little guys down they're just like whoa that

805
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 2: is yeah, yeah, my gosh, I do.

806
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: I also I do like the idea that like, above

807
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: water it's like nah, but underwater it's like Miley Cyrus

808
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 1: turning into Hannah Montana.

809
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 2: Wow, that's where they shine.

810
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like Miley Cyrus, eh whatever, just normal girls

811
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 1: and then she turned to normal.

812
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 2: Wow.

813
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: Wow, Well I think we I think we've done it.

814
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: I think we've found some of the coolest glam rockers

815
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: in the animal kingdom.

816
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 2: These are truly glamorous animals you have shared with me today, Katie.

817
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 2: I'm touched. These are awesome than I do.

818
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 1: Before we go, I do want to address a listener question.

819
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: So listener Izzybe writes in and says, hey, creature peeps.

820
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: There's been a meme Twitter thread popping up now and

821
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,879
Speaker 1: again claiming that the Uncanny Valley exists as a deep

822
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: psychological remnant from our early hominid ancestors interspecies competition for resources.

823
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 1: So frequently these conversations use the idea that animals, even

824
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: our own pets, don't experience the Uncanny Valley as proof,

825
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,720
Speaker 1: but that rings false to me. I am a puppet

826
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: maker and have lots of Sorry. I love this. I

827
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: love this email so much. I love it when you

828
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 1: guys write into me when I when I was reading

829
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: this and then I got to I am a puppet maker.

830
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: Like I almost screamed in excitement. I anyways, I'm going

831
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: to continue reading.

832
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: This, but like, please please, sorry.

833
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: I am a puppet maker and have lots of experience

834
00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: of dogs and cats. Absolutely losing their their quack in

835
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: terror of puppets, usually human based puppets, but sometimes those

836
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: based on other animals. What is this if not the

837
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: uncanny valley, the mental rejection and innate fear of something

838
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: that resembles the familiar but doesn't achieve a fully believable resemblance.

839
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: As someone familiar with animal psychology, I was wondering if

840
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: you had any thoughts on the matter. On a completely

841
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: different note of the arc of the universe bending towards crab,

842
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: one of our latest puppets is a massive crab dragon.

843
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 1: Although it fails to copy the evolutionary perfect crab body plan,

844
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: it is painted to look like a coconut crab. We

845
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: were even listening to the Carsonization episode while painting her.

846
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 1: Here are pictures, Izzy be Thank you so much. Izzy. These.

847
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: When you said you were a puppet maker, I was excited.

848
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: I love puppets. It's I mean, like, but I was

849
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,760
Speaker 1: expecting a small puppet.

850
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 2: Which I was still excited for.

851
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 1: I was still really excited for. This is a life sized,

852
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 1: freaking dragon. It's massive, It's three people are operating this thing.

853
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: It's a huge, actual real life dragon puppet the size

854
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: of a freaking real life dragon and.

855
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 2: It's incredible, and it is incredible.

856
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 1: It is painted like a coconut crab. It's absolutely beautiful.

857
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: It's amazing, and I, if possible, I'm going to include

858
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: a link to these photos in the show notes. It's

859
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: I'm so blown away by this. This is a beautiful puppet.

860
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,959
Speaker 1: I actually like a note about the Uncanny Valley before

861
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: I get into answering the question. I actually love the

862
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: Uncanny Valley, Like I actively seek out feeling that feeling.

863
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: It's a it's a fun, exciting feeling for me. It's like,

864
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: now I don't like roller coasters, Like I hate roller coasters.

865
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: They scare me. But I imagine the feeling that other

866
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: people get when they go on a roller coaster, of

867
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: like that it's like kind of scary but exciting. That

868
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: thrill that's what I get from like looking at weird

869
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 1: animatronics or Uncanny Valley things. I love animatronics, I love puppets.

870
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: I just love that feeling of like there's a certain

871
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: sort of offness to this thing. It's like not quite

872
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: a human, but it's almost a human. Like I really

873
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: it's just thrilling for me. So this is a really

874
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: exciting thing for me.

875
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 2: Nice, this is an incredible puppet These are these are true.

876
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 2: This is truly I you know, I would totally expect

877
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 2: to see this at the front of a very well

878
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 2: produced parade. This is like or you know of a

879
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 2: like it's a puppet show. Not like a puppet show though,

880
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: but like like a The Muppets.

881
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely a cirqu of silet production. Yeah.

882
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 2: No, it's it's a centerpiece right here.

883
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: This is or like The Dark Crystal, you know what

884
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: I mean. Ye Oh, I loved by the way. I

885
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,280
Speaker 1: love The Dark Crystal loved. I also like the the reboot,

886
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: the remake or not remake the was I haven't.

887
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 2: Checked out the It's good.

888
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: I liked it. Yeah, my skeio, if you liked the

889
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: original one, you'll definitely like the remake. It's or not remake.

890
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: It's just a reboot, but it definitely recaptures sort of

891
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: the it's it's all practical effects. It's really really beautiful.

892
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 2: I love that.

893
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: In terms of the question about whether animals feel the

894
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: Uncanny Valley, I actually really agree with this listener. I

895
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:25,240
Speaker 1: think that we don't. While we don't necessarily have evidence

896
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: that says that animals definitely do feel the Uncanny Valley.

897
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:33,720
Speaker 1: It's like hard to you know, quantify what an animal

898
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 1: is feeling. I definitely think that animals would have the

899
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: capacity to feel that based on certain animal behavior. So

900
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: some of the things that we know, like, well, first

901
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: of all, this is maybe not super scientific, but I've

902
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: definitely seen a lot of videos of cats on like

903
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: TikTok and stuff reacting to their owners having a like

904
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: a cat filter on their face, you know, like on

905
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: Snapchat or it's like a cat a cat face like

906
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: filter on their face, so it looks like the human

907
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 1: has a cat face on the phone, and the cats

908
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 1: like look at the phone, look really startled, look back

909
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 1: at their human and look at the phone and like

910
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: run away. So, uh, that's that's interesting to me that

911
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: the cats get really freaked out by humans wearing like

912
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: a cat cat makeup or having that like cat filter.

913
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: Of course, that's that's that's totally anecdotal. Uh less anecdotal

914
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: I think, is Well, no, I guess it's still anecdotal. Anyways.

915
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: Another thing that we've seen is like there's this TV

916
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: show called Spies in the Wild where they put like anima, Yeah,

917
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: spy in the wild. It's they it's it's hilarious but

918
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: also a great nature documentary. They create these animatronic versions

919
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:51,280
Speaker 1: of animals so that they can have cameras like watching

920
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 1: the animals up close. But it's also kind of funny

921
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: because like most of the camera work in the show

922
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 1: isn't from the animatronic animals, so it seems like that's

923
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:05,800
Speaker 1: something of a gimmick, got it, But it's still really interesting.

924
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: I think the most interesting part of the show is

925
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: not like the up close shots that these animatronics get,

926
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 1: but it's the reactions that the animals have to the animatronics.

927
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 1: So a lot of animals don't seem to really think

928
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 1: anything of it, but once you start to get to primates,

929
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 1: their reactions are very interesting. There are these langers that

930
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: were very tentatively playing with this animatronic linger, and then

931
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: it fell down and like broke and stopped moving, and

932
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 1: then a bunch of langers all came over that this

933
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:38,919
Speaker 1: langers are a type of monkey, and they they came

934
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: and surrounded this thing, like like twenty or thirty of them,

935
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: just like looking and like carefully touching it and looking

936
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: it was almost it looked like they were holding a

937
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: funeral almost, but it was like I think they were

938
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: just so freaked out and fascinated by what this was,

939
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: where like it seems kind of like a dead monkey,

940
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: but they weren't sure what it was, but they were

941
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 1: fascinated and and it seemed kind of freaked out. So

942
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 1: I think that And you also look at like things

943
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: that we have done research on where dogs seem to

944
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: pay particular attention to human faces on the side of

945
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: the face that's more expressive, Like we're not our expressions

946
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 1: are not completely symmetrical, Like there's usually one side of

947
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: the face that is a little more expressive, and the

948
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 1: dogs seem to prefer that side of the face. And

949
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 1: so I think that that kind of like facial recognition.

950
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 1: And it's the whole kind of concept of this idea

951
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 1: that like only humans would be in some sort of

952
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 1: like competition with other hominids. That doesn't make any sense,

953
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: Like there are so many species who have very similar

954
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: species that they are in competition with. I mean, like

955
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: you know, canines like like wolves and other canids would

956
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,399
Speaker 1: be in competition, you know, I mean like a dog

957
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: in a coyote Like coyote will often kill dogs, So

958
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: like they have to be very careful around each other

959
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: different kind of feline species, Like you know, a cheetah

960
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: is no friend to like a lion. So it's you know,

961
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: it's they are all sorts of competition amongst species that

962
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: maybe don't look exactly like each other, but are somewhat similar.

963
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 1: So this idea that the Uncanny Valley evolved in humans

964
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 1: because we were competing with other species and we had

965
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: to be aware of like ones that were kind off.

966
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 1: It's like, well, I would say that would apply to

967
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,360
Speaker 1: you know, most most intelligent social animals.

968
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 2: Great, I support that entirely. I don't. I obviously do

969
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 2: not have a professional opinion on the matter, but I

970
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 2: would like to think that, like you know, obviously language

971
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 2: is something that is created by humans for humans. Yeah,

972
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 2: but I think for to be for the suggestion to

973
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:01,439
Speaker 2: be that dogs and and you know certain animals don't

974
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,320
Speaker 2: have the capability to semi recognize something or have to

975
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 2: wrestle with something as recognizable or not. I think, you know,

976
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 2: to say, do they experience the uncanny Valley? It's like, well,

977
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 2: they don't. They don't call it that, but they know

978
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 2: when something is there and doesn't. It's like this is

979
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 2: not quite right. This is not I'm confused by this.

980
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 2: I support you entirely. I think it's I think it's one.

981
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. In fact, there there's a study, uh, there's a

982
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: study of mackex that looked at their eye gaze of

983
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: like computer generated images of mckx and like ones that

984
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: were like, uh, sort of realistic, actually kind of cartoonish.

985
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: They sort of looked at a little bit, didn't really

986
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 1: seem to care. They were real photos they looked at

987
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: for a long time because they were interested. But ones

988
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: that were almost exactly realistic but not quite they were

989
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 1: like CGI. They didn't like to look at it all.

990
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 1: They like spent as little time looking at it as possible,

991
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: which you know, it's hard to know exactly how to

992
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 1: interpret those results, but one way of interpreting them is

993
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: that they did not enjoy looking at that CGI version

994
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: of the the macaque, and so they would avert their

995
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 1: gaze because they found it unpleasant, which is how humans

996
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 1: experienced the Uncanny Valley. So I would say this has

997
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 1: not been researched enough to really say definitively, but I

998
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: think all the research that we have, as well as

999
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: general trends and animal behavior I think would indicate that, yeah,

1000
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: this could definitely happen for animals, and I don't see

1001
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: any reason to rule.

1002
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 2: It out for animals, right, I agree with you.

1003
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 1: That's why my dog hates polar Express. I thought it

1004
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: was just because she hated Tom Hanks, but I think

1005
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: it's all those all those weird kids.

1006
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 2: It's all those weird looking kids. That's funny, that's wonderful.

1007
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: Oh, Cookie, Also when I make a weird noise, she

1008
00:57:57,680 --> 00:57:59,919
Speaker 1: gives me such a look, like she does the little

1009
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: head turning thing. But like if I do sort of

1010
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: a weird whistling noise, like where I'm kind of sucking

1011
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: airin through my teeth or something in a weird way,

1012
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: or or if I blow across a bottle and it

1013
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 1: makes that like weird hooty noise, like she just like

1014
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: she looks at me like I've been possessed, and she's

1015
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: clearly she's like she's interested, but she's concerned. I've been bewitched.

1016
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 2: Totally totally different noise, I'm unfamiliar.

1017
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: Oh, and she hates it when people ride on bikes

1018
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 1: or skateboards, like, uh, just it's something like about the

1019
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 1: human going faster than they should that like she loses

1020
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: her mind over she hates so much. It's like you're

1021
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: a human but way too fast. This isn't right.

1022
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, why is one part of you moving but the

1023
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 2: other parts of you were not? What's up with that?

1024
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 2: What's that?

1025
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: It's a bicycle human centaur? Evil?

1026
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 2: I'll bite off its legs?

1027
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: What is this?

1028
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 2: Yeah? Amazing?

1029
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 1: Well I think that'll do it for today. Thank you

1030
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah for this email. Love the pictures of

1031
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 1: the puppet. I will share those. And yeah, if you

1032
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 1: haven't have a question and you want me to answer it,

1033
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 1: send an email to Creature Feature Pod at gmail dot

1034
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: com and I will either try to answer it over

1035
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: the email or even on the show. So yeah, thank

1036
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 1: you so much for that. And Daniel, thank you so

1037
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 1: much for being on here today. Thank you for having me.

1038
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 2: It's always a pleasure. It's such a great show, one

1039
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 2: of my favorite podcasts. Always honored to be included.

1040
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, thank you so much. He used to

1041
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: you used to engineer the dang thing.

1042
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 2: Did used to engineer the dang thing. But then we

1043
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 2: got so you know, we got so big and busy.

1044
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 2: They spread spread us all out there. They're like Danny

1045
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 2: can't do that anymore. You got to go do this

1046
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 2: other thing. I'm like that.

1047
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:51,919
Speaker 1: But the bright side is now we've got Zach yay

1048
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 1: here you guys. He's he's actually he's actually.

1049
00:59:58,320 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 2: Shrouded by waves.

1050
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 1: He's actually he's actually a dolphins, so he can only

1051
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: in squeals and ease yes and confetti emotions. That's insane thing. Yes,

1052
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 1: I engineered.

1053
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 2: Lovely.

1054
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Where can

1055
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: people find you?

1056
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 2: You can find me on the on Twitter at dj

1057
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 2: Underscore Daniel and you can find me on Twitch at

1058
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 2: the same twitch dot tv slash dj Underscore d A

1059
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 2: n L. Check it out. We do fun stuff. Yeah yeah,

1060
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 2: and listen to the podcast shoot listen to Creature Feature.

1061
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 2: I mean you already here, so great job. Check on

1062
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 2: the podcast of the network.

1063
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, check out other podcasts on the network. Uh, thank

1064
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: you guys so much for listening. You can find us

1065
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 1: on the internet at Creature Feature Pod on Instagram at

1066
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 1: Creature Feet Pod on Twitter. That's f e a T

1067
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 1: not f e et hood is something very different. And

1068
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: as always, I'm Katie Golden. You can find me on

1069
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 1: Twitter just for my Katie thoughts and uh yeah, thank

1070
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 1: you so much the Space Classics for their super awesome

1071
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 1: song ex Alumina.

1072
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 2: That song is great.

1073
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 1: I know it's so good. I love it.

1074
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 2: Can I get it? A Can I get it? A

1075
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 2: corny joke before we leave? Do it? Do it?

1076
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: Do it?

1077
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 2: Since? Did you said creature feet? Yeah, you were like, no,

1078
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 2: it's creature feet f e eight not f e e t.

1079
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 2: That's a different website. That website is only Finn's.

1080
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,439
Speaker 1: Thank you, No, don't never apologize. Thank you so much

1081
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: for that. Oh my god, thank you so much. Creature

1082
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 1: Feature is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like

1083
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 1: the one you just heard, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,

1084
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 1: or Hey guess what where have you listened to your

1085
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 1: favorite shows? See you next Wednesday, Only Finn