WEBVTT - #068 Jason Flom with Raymond Santana 0:00:01.200 --> 0:00:04.680 I originally interviewed Raymond Santana on the very first episode 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.000 of Wrongful Conviction, which aired it seems like a long 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:10.680 time ago on October third of twenty sixteen. I'm so 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:14.560 excited to see what's happening for my friend Raymond. Not 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:18.279 only is he now an activist, a clothing designer, and 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.720 an accomplished and celebrated public speaker. He also launched a 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:25.960 clothing company called Park Madison, NYC in twenty eighteen. And 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:29.680 Raymond is a course featured in the hit Netflix show 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.199 When They See Us, which prepared on May thirty one, 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.960 twenty nineteen. And it's so great to see him out 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:41.120 and about in the spotlight, spreading a good word, beaming 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.760 out that positive energy that he has. I also encourage 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.280 you to watch Raymond and I did a speech together. 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.160 If you google my name in Nantucket project, you'll see 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.360 it right away. Raymond, you deserve all the success and more. 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:01.160 And now please listen to the first episode the premiere 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:03.440 of Wrongful Conviction with Raymond Santana. 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.959 I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life. 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.160 I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:19.440 day of my high school year. 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:21.880 I was going to be a senior. At twenty two, 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:23.399 I was set to start college. 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.839 I woke up and my life was never the same again. 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.880 Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:32.480 freedom ever since after that. 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.960 It's like roach motw Once you get in, you're not 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:36.800 get mouthed. 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.360 On April nineteenth, nineteen eighty nine, fourteen year old Raymond 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:43.800 Santana was arrested and charged with one of the most 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.600 notorious crimes in the history of New York City, the 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.560 rape and brutal beating of a woman who became known 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:50.920 as the Central Park jogger. 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.920 Five youths were arrested at ninety sixth Street, four between 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:57.840 fourteen and fifteen years of age. 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.560 Police are still questioning some of them the young suspects. 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:05.919 They believe were involved in last night's attack. Immediately following 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:08.520 the crime, New York City police picked up Raymond and 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.960 four other teenage boys. They were interrogated separately. They were 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:14.840 denied food, water, and access to lawyers, and they were 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:17.640 held for between fifteen and thirty hours until each of 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:20.280 them confessed to a crime they did not commit. 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:22.880 And he says, so where will you? And I said well, 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:24.919 I saw it from a distance. I was witnessing it, 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:27.920 and he said that's not good enough. He said, you 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.680 have to place yourself at the scene. You have to 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:32.200 be right there watching it. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.880 All five of them were convicted. This is wrongful conviction 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.520 with Jason Flomm. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:43.720 Its bad. 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:54.000 Oh, it's so bad, Raymond. Welcome to the show. 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:54.960 Thank you for having me. 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:57.799 Raymond. I want to go back and talk about your 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:01.640 crazy life story because I lived through it. I'm a 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:05.840 New Yorker. Yeah, and I remember very well seeing your 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:09.720 face on the front of every newspaper, and you were 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:11.560 one of the most hated people in New York City 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:12.040 at the times. 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:14.200 That's fair to say, that's correct. You were like the 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:14.919 face of evil. 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.640 Yes, there is anger over this incident that seems to 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.720 have only grown in the day since the assault occurred. 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:24.160 I also wanted to take them after they get out 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.000 of Gail and put them in the Gorilla Cajun, the 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.200 Park Zoo, the New Zoo, see if they could survive it. 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.040 I think that's analogous to what they did to her. 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:32.200 The punishment has to fit the crime. 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:39.120 Castrate them. They can't only one problem. You didn't do it. 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:41.640 That's a big problem. That's a big problem. 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:43.080 But I want to go even further back than that. 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:45.880 First of all, what's your where are you from? What's 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.400 your family from? Let's talk about your childhood before this 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:49.480 all came down. 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:54.880 Yeah, originally I was born in Harlem, moved to the Bronx. 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:56.960 My dad was from Puerto Rico. 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:02.720 Mother was born here, she's Puerto Rican and also, and 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.200 my childhood was like any other childhood, right, middle class family. 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.280 Father works you know, at a hospital. He was there 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.640 for about forty four years old total. My mom's was 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:16.479 a housewife. It was me and my sister growing up. 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:18.599 So you're growing up. I mean you were fourteen years 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:21.080 old when this happened, right, correct, Yeah, I mean and 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.000 when I think about how young that is, many of 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.680 the audience have kids, teenage kids. I mean fourteen, you're 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.520 a child. Yes, I mean at fifteen or sixteen, you're 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:34.080 starting to become moving towards adulthood, right, but at fourteen, 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:35.359 you're a child. Let's face it. 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.640 At fourteen, you know, my dad wasn't even thinking about 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:39.280 all right, let me sit them down and fill out 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.120 an application, right, show him how to do that, you know, 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.240 show him how to take a girl on the date, 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:46.560 like that stuff wasn't even coming in yet. 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.640 That maybe you shaved once by then maybe not even 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:51.120 you're not going on. 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.919 Dates yet, You're like eighth grader pretty much. Yeah, I 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.640 was about yeah, about yeah, seven seventh day. Yeah. 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.840 So let's go back to the night of this horrendous 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.839 crime and this terrible nightmare that you and the other four, 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.320 the other four guys went through. First of all, you 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:09.440 didn't know those guys, did you. 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:09.960 No, I did not. 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:12.160 So the case, let's talk about the case a little bit. 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.159 So the Central Park jeogra case. The fact is Central 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.279 Park jogger case. This was in the well, I guess 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:18.760 it was in the early nineties. 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.839 Right, yeah, nineteen eighty nine and eighty nine, right. 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.520 So the crime in New York City was out of 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.360 control at that time. There was a lot of fear, 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.520 a lot of panic, a lot of violence, and this 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.520 case hit all the trigger points because what happened was 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.640 there was a woman, a wealthy woman from the Upper 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.400 East Side, white woman, who was jogging in the park 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:51.440 at night and was attacked, dragged into the bushes and 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:56.760 raped and beaten almost to death. This became a huge 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:01.359 flash point, a lot of pressure on the cops to 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.119 figure this out real quick, right, I imagine the mayor 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.400 everybody must have been calling like get this figured out 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:10.720 right now. So let's go. Let's go to the night 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.480 of the of the crime. So where were you? What 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:14.080 were you doing? 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.279 Well, it started out because I lived originally, I lived 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:19.640 on one hundred and nineteenth Street and like between Lexington 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.240 and Park, right next to the twenty fifth precinct. 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:26.599 So so ironically yeah right, And so as it turns out. 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:28.440 Some guys that I went to school with lived in 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.520 tap Houses, which is, you know, roughly about five six 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:34.640 blocks away, and that night we planned to go to 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.200 Shamberg because there was a party there. 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:38.360 That's another housing project. 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:42.360 Yeah, that's where Yusuf and Kevin and Corey they live 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:42.880 over there. 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:44.920 So so I didn't know these guys. 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.080 Yeah, I didn't know these guys, but there was mutual 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:50.080 friends within their group and there was mutual friends within 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.400 my group. And that's how we came to meet up 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.360 in front of Shamberg and talk to these guys. 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.720 And then from the now, just so for people who 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:01.960 are let saying that I don't expect people to know this, 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:04.560 but Central Park goes from fifty ninth Street to one 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:06.200 hundred and tenth Street in New York and it goes 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:08.880 from Fifth Avenue to Central Park West. Yes, this crime 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:10.600 happened in the northern section. 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.680 Of the park around one hundred and second Street. 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:15.880 Right, So naturally the cops are up there looking and 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.560 they're looking for, you know, suspects in that area. Yeah, 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.280 but you weren't. I mean, you were still a good 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.040 half a mile away at least from the crime scene 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:27.080 at this point. So it was at the Schaumberg houses. 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:28.920 How did let's get to where? How did you get 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.040 picked up? Where'd you guys go from the Chamberg House? 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.480 Why did you happen to be standing somewhere that the 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:35.840 cops would happen to look at you and say, let's 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:37.520 grab this guy and the other guys. 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.520 Yeah, So what happened was that we went into the park, right, 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:41.840 and so me. 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.520 Just looking at something that was yeah, because. 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:45.400 We was out out there talking. 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:47.720 There was a bunch of guys, and then guys started 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:49.960 going into the park in that one hundred and tenth 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.080 street area, right there on the corner, because that's the 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:52.880 corner of the park. 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:54.960 They live right across the street from me, and. 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:57.080 So that was something that they did all the time, 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:58.800 Like they always went into the park and hung out 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.240 in that corner area on one hundred tenth Street and fifth, Yes, 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:02.920 one hundred. 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:03.240 Tenth and fifth. 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:06.600 Yeah, so to them that was like their backyard, you know, 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.960 the Shaanberg boys always was in the park. And so 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.160 we did go with the park with them, and then 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.200 from there we wound up traveling to the park. They 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.000 did walk into the park and they wound up traveling 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:22.080 going south into the park. Now, there was some things 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:23.920 that happened that night because it was a very large 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.920 group at this time. You know how many kids We're 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:29.640 talking over thirty kids and this group. I was with 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.720 the group, but I didn't know I didn't know majority 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:34.560 of them. I knew just the guys that I came with. 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:36.520 And you were the youngest or one of the youngest. 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.079 Yeah, I was one of the youngest. And so there 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.640 were some guys in there who were rowdy, right, and 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:46.280 so one guy did get assaulted, who was a Hispanic man, 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:49.680 and then I think three people got sorted by the reservoir. 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:51.680 When that happened is when we left the. 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:53.400 Park. 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.000 Yeah, it's in the park. And so when that. 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.560 Last incident happened with those three people is when the 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:02.880 group left, like the guys who I came with, they 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.600 was like, we're leaving the park. And so as we 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:07.760 left the park, we was on Central Park West, like 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.040 on around one hundred and second Street, and that's where 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:11.960 the police came and I got picked up at And 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:15.320 so the guys who I came with, they had left, 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:17.800 and so I was there walking with a group of 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:20.880 people who I didn't know, and so a small group. 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:24.600 And so when the police did approach, that group scattered, 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:27.280 and so one of the officers grabbed me, and then 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:28.840 there was another kid who he grabbed by the name 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:30.680 of Steven Lopez, who I didn't even know. 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.120 And now they grabbed you because you didn't run, Yeah, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:35.640 because I didn't run. And why didn't you run? 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:37.920 Because I didn't do anything, So there was no reason 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:40.560 to run. There's a good answer, right, Yeah, I didn't 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.240 do anything. And so and you trusted the cops at 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:45.480 this point, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.400 I never had no dealings with them, I never had 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.160 no bad experience with them, so you know, it was 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.080 no reason for me to run, right, And so you know, 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.200 I just I told himself, well, why are you stopping 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.240 me because I ain't doing anything, and he pulled he 0:09:58.280 --> 0:09:59.480 had to walk, he talking, and he hit me over 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.600 the head with the water talkie. Right, he put me 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:03.000 on the wall. So I just did in the wall 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:05.480 and I ain't seen anything. And then he also grafts 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:07.880 Steve Lopez and put him on the wall. And by 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:09.600 this time the rest of the group that looked group 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:10.760 that he was with the scattered. 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:13.520 Okay, so anyway, so they take so they arrest you. 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:15.400 Do you know why you're being arrested? 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:16.680 No, I just plant don't. 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.320 Do you know anything about the Central Park Jograh situation. 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:20.840 It hadn't even gotten. 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.360 Out yet, No, no, nothing, because. 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.319 We didn't have social media back then. Like that's not 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:27.200 like you were checking your phone and there's an alert 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:28.280 that comes in from seeing. 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.000 It wasn't no phone. I didn't have no phone. 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.439 Out, So okay, so now you're just you know what's 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:32.960 going on now? 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:34.040 I don't know what's going on now. 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.400 Now there was some instance that happened in the park 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.320 that I saw, but you know, I didn't have nothing 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:41.360 to do with that. So so to me, it was like, 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:42.920 you know, it's nothing to worry about at. 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.120 Fourteen, I mean you're probably not in a great position 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.480 to attack anybody anyway, you probably do the one getting 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:48.520 attack for really. 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:49.120 I didn't at that point. 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.200 I was, you know, ninety pounds, soaking ninety pounds, yeah, 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:53.720 you know, I was a small guy. 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:57.319 So not nothing real scary about ninety pounds. So okay, 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.640 So they take you to the precinct in the park. Right, 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.560 So again for our audience, that precinct is in Central Park. 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:05.000 Yeah, there's a Central Park precinct. 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:06.960 That's what it's called. So they take you to the 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:09.960 precinct and what happens next, And so I'm there with 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.800 because me and Stephen Lopez we got picked up at 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:13.440 the same time. 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.240 There's another guy, well, Kevin Richardson gets picked up too, 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.040 right because Officer Powers goes into the park, he chases 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.760 Kevin Richard down. Richardson down, He hits him in the 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.079 face with the helmet, he tackles him, he arrests him. 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.280 And so there's him, and then there's two other guys, 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:36.240 Lamart McCall and a kid by the name of Clarence. 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:39.760 So this is the five of us that get picked up. 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.160 And so we're sitting in the precinct together together. 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:46.800 So you know, you go through like the whole taking 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.199 to the pictures, you know, like the mugshot. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:50.760 And stuff like that, and. 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.240 Then they sit us in this room and they say, 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:55.400 all right, make your phone call and had your parents 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.440 come pick you up. Because originally what we were given 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.560 was disappearance tickets right to appear in family court. 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.520 So so you know, the charges then were. 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:12.120 Like trespassing, ah, menacing, These are all like misdemeanor charges 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.960 that they gave us. And so then we just had 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:19.120 to sit and wait until our parents came. 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:19.640 To pick us up. 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:21.720 Right, So you called your mom, your dad. I called 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.000 my dad, right, and then you got him on the phone. 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:25.760 I got him on at least. 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:27.480 Yeah, yeah, because by that time it was like maybe 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:28.960 like ten or eleven o'clock at night. 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.400 Right, and yeah, and again no cell phones back then. 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.599 I want to take a picture here, right, So you know, 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:35.120 if somebody's not home, they answer the phone. 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:36.520 Yeah. I had to call about two or three time 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:36.840 because he. 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.720 Was sleep Oh okay, okay, So he answered the phone. 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:40.880 He must be freaking out. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.679 Yeah, he's pissed off, you know, And so I told 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:44.959 him I got to you know, you gotta come down 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:47.680 and pick me up and uh he speaks to the 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:49.319 officer off so telling me he got to come pick 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:50.880 me up. So he says, all right, he doesn't have 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:52.960 a car, so they sent they supposed to be sending 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.120 the car to pick him up, to come down and 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:55.719 pick me up. 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.360 And so, uh so you're sitting there for hours and hours, yeah, 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:00.800 and the time you're probably hungry. 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.160 Yeah, all of us is in the room a little 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:03.800 bit bigger than this. 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:05.240 Not in the cell. 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:07.760 Though, not in the cell is so okay. 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.080 So then so okay, so your dad comes eventually, right. 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.040 Eventually, he don't take no or the parents show up. 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:16.679 My dad is the last one to come. He shows 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:20.080 over my grandmother. They get there like maybe three four 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:22.960 in the morning. So he asks what's going on, So 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:24.560 they tell him. They explain to him that it's just 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:26.760 a disappearance ticket. We have to pay a family court. 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.240 They're going to release us. So he goes, okay, So 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.160 he has to go to work. So he tells my grandmother. 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:34.160 He actually my grandmother to stay. So my grandma said, 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:35.800 all right, you know, he says he's gonna let him go, 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:36.320 take him home. 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.920 I deal with him later. So he goes to work. 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:42.240 My grandmother stays there, and then what happens is that 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:44.840 they move us out of the small room into the 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.720 waiting area with our parents, and they say like they 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:49.800 can't let us go because the detectives want to talk 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:51.320 to us, but they don't say why. 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:53.679 Now it's three, four or five in the morning. Yeah, 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.360 then you got picked up at at ten or eleven o'clock. 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:58.800 So now we're talking like, yeah, it's a long night. 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:03.280 We're talking like five, six in the morning, maybe even seven, 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.280 and so, uh, you know, we don't know what's going on. 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:08.360 We're just sitting there waiting. 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:09.600 Have you heard about this central part? 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.000 Jographer? Still don't know anything. 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:14.319 But you're sure not going to ask a lot of 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.000 questions after you got hit in the head with the radio. 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:21.160 Yeah, that's right, that's right, that's right. That'll and especially 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:22.880 if you know that I'm gonna be released. 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:24.920 So you're not gonna make any waves. 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:25.440 No, you know. 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:28.600 So we're sitting in this weighting room for hours, and 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.280 detectives come, they talk to Kevin, take Kevin in the room. 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.800 And then he's in there for hours. So we don't 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:35.520 know what's going on. 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.080 Right now, it's eight o'clock in the morning. 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.000 It's No. By the time they've done with him, it's 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:41.800 maybe like one two o'clock and the. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.040 Afternoon, and you're still sitting there, and we're still sitting 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.800 They give you anything to eat, No, we're just sitting there, 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:47.760 no water or anything. 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:49.960 We're just sitting there, just sitting there, just sitting there for. 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:51.120 A long time, to just sit there. 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:51.560 Yeah. 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:56.760 And so after Kevin is I remember them taking Kevin 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:58.920 out of the room and they don't let him come 0:14:59.000 --> 0:14:59.680 and sit with us. 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:01.480 They you know, they take him. 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.200 Straight out straight at the awe the office, and he leaves, 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.120 he leaves the precinct, and so they called me in 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.080 next and so I'm sitting there with my grandmother. 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.880 So the detective he know, he uh heuh. 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.960 He introduced himself as a detective from Bertha or Royal. 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:19.720 Right. 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.480 He's in the room and and he says, you know, Raymond, uh, 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:24.920 we just want to sit down and talk to you 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.240 about some of the events that happened that night. And 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.280 so I go, okay, you know, you know, what do 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.840 you want to know? And so we go into the 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:34.800 whole lot of question of who I was with, who 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.360 I came with, what did I see, where was I at? 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.040 Stuff? Like that, what time did I leave? How did 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:39.760 I get picked up? 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:45.080 And so, you know, he doesn't he doesn't say anything 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:47.920 to me about the jagga for a while. He talks 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.440 about just what happened that night, what did I see 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:51.400 and who was I with? 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:52.400 Right? 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.520 And so I tell him that, yeah, I did see, uh, 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.560 these guys assault you know, the homeless man, and I 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.400 did see some of these guys throw at jaggas who 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.320 were running on the reservoir and and there was one 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:09.680 kid who did as salt one of the jaggas. And 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.320 and based on that assault is when I decided that 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.400 it was time for me to leave the park. And 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.480 so that line of question, it goes on for hours, 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.080 and then you know, he gets he he you know, 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.240 he says to me, well, what happened to the jaga? 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:25.600 And I said, well, what jogga? What are you talking about? 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.400 And he says the woman? And I say what woman? 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:31.120 I never saw a woman? And he said, so you 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.360 didn't see the woman jogging in the park And I 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:37.000 said no, and I said, the only woman I saw 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.280 was when we first entered the park, there was a 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.000 guy walking with his girlfriend and he walked through the 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.800 through the group and everybody moved out the way and 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:45.960 let him in her pass. 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:48.240 And I said, that's the only woman I saw. There 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:49.200 was no other woman. 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:53.440 And so we went back and forth about that for 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.160 a little bit, right, because he kept trying to, you know, 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:58.840 you know, asking me the same questions. You didn't see 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.120 a woman, jaga, woman was raped And I'm like, no, 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.160 there was no woman raped that night. I didn't see 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.760 anything like that. And he said, yeah, of course there was. 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:10.640 And I'm like, no, there wasn't. And so from there 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.400 that's when the line of questions starts to change. Now 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.320 things get a little more scary. 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:17.360 Still, just the one detective and you in the room. Yeah, 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.040 and your grandmother, yeah, and my grandmother. But but your 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:21.439 grandmother she didn't speak good English. 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:23.280 She didn't speak She couldn't carry a conversation. 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:25.320 She knew curse words, right, she could sit there and 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:28.040 curse you out in English words, but she couldn't carry 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:28.600 a conversation. 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:30.000 That's kind of funny about yeah. 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.080